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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: KingDrool on November 05, 2011, 08:29:06 AM
Title: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 05, 2011, 08:29:06 AM
1up just posted an article about "failed" consoles, what went wrong with them, and how they could've been saved. The first one they covered was the TurboGrafx-16. As with most mainsteam gaming websites, it has a few questionable parts, but I think it's a pretty well-done article overall.
Thought I'd share it with you guys: http://www.1up.com/features/saving-the-system-failed-consoles
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 05, 2011, 09:04:01 AM
That was a pretty good article. Although they only barely toughed on it, one of the biggest failures of the system was the necessity to buy extra adapters for multiplayer, composite video/stereo sound, etc. That's just extremely stupid design. The PC Engine has that same beyond-idiotic design in Japan. Seriously, how stupid can they be? Morons.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 05, 2011, 09:26:00 AM
But by buying the turbo tap you can go up to 5 players! Not a bad deal considering there are a ton of 5 player games....
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 05, 2011, 11:12:54 AM
The single controller port was one of those problems that really should have been identified before it hit the market.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 05, 2011, 12:35:12 PM
The US system should have had the multitap built in. Also, stereo, composite...hell, you could build a toilet and a satelite dish into the TG-16 its so damned huge.
Looking at the PCE core system, space is obviously more in demand. The single controller port was kind of rough, but because of it everyone ended up buying a tap, giving them a max of five. With other systems multitaps are pretty fringe items, but the PCE everyone has one. Honestly, its kind of one of the most multi-player of all systems, ironically.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the TG-16 was basically doomed. No amount of marketing or strategy could have saved it. Its a hella Japanese system where most of the best games had tons of text. Twenty years ago Americans were even more illiterate and xenophobic than they are now. NEC couldn't have changed that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 05, 2011, 12:38:34 PM
I've explained the tap thing before but people don't usually tend to understand it, heh. The system was designed for multiplayer from the start, and the single-port setup was a serious advantage for developers because the system was mind-numbingly easy to code multiplayer games for. An easy system to work with = more potential developers = more games produced = more money made = more happy kids.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 05, 2011, 01:41:57 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the TG-16 was basically doomed. No amount of marketing or strategy could have saved it. Its a hella Japanese system where most of the best games had tons of text. Twenty years ago Americans were even more illiterate and xenophobic than they are now. NEC couldn't have changed that.
It definitely could have done a lot better, but I agree with you in the sense that I don't think it would have had any chance of being as popular as the SNES considering the circumstances.
The biggest problem was really that the best games were on CD, and CD-ROM prices at that time were just way too high to be competitive as a mass market item. Using HuCards only, even if the system got everything that came out for the PC Engine, and then a little more it still wouldn't have had a chance. It would have done better as a niche market item, but it never would have "won" the console war.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 05, 2011, 01:48:03 PM
Oh and Nintendo's third party licensing restrictions in the late 80s and early 90s certainly were a contributing factor.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: c0ldb33r on November 05, 2011, 05:29:42 PM
great article. I didn't know that there was ever talk of Mortal Kombat on the duo. That would have been great. I wonder what it would look like.
One thing that could have happened would be to release older unreleased PCE games on the American Duo. Licensing fees would be a lot less with older games and you'd basically get 2/3/4 games on one CD. I think that would have pushed some systems.
It would be kind of like the PCE compilations released on the PSP.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigT on November 06, 2011, 04:32:42 AM
That's an interesting article.
I agree that it would have been hard for NEC to take the #1 spot in the US, but #2 or at least a large profitable niche were attainable.
Here are my initial thoughts:
* In terms of controllers, a pack-in (or built in TurboTap) would have been nice... a pack in would have helped with a couple problems, i.e., only one port and short cable length. Also, a 3-button controller would have been nice around the time of launch (many games use run for this function anyways, and as silly as it seems, I recall my friends pointing out how superior the Genesis was because of an extra action button)... two buttons, just made it seem NES-like.
* They should have focused on the CD aspect of the system earlier on. E.g., include a pack-in game and lower the price... or just market an integrated system from the start (CD plus core system portion side by side would be about the same size as the turbografx-16)... they did not abide by the current concept that you sometimes have to take an initial loss on hardware and then make it up on software sales)... making it an expensive add-on made the installed CD-rom base ridiculously small. In 1989, they might have been able to get away with charging $149 for the base system initially with $249 for the CD with a bundle discount of $349 for both... with then price drops to $99, $199, and ~$249-279 when possible... that could have made things more palatable.
* In the end, more games and third parties would have helped as well... as soon as Bonk came out, that should have been added permanently as a pack-in along side Keith Courage. Getting EA on board earlier would have helped... John Madden Duo showed that the system could handle those games... NHL was a huge reason I ever even touched a genesis... the TV Sports series (aside from TV Sports Basketball, with which I have a strange fascination, just did not compare). Of course, the issue of actually localizing more games has been beat to death before.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 06, 2011, 05:12:15 AM
Oh and Nintendo's third party licensing restrictions in the late 80s and early 90s certainly were a contributing factor.
This is the real problem. Getting f*cked out of games = lame.
Konami's presence on the TurboGrafx-16 was barely there. Capcom's was.. yeah.
We had no Contra, Jackal, MegaMan or Castlevania for the Turbob. That blew
There are tons of games on the PCE that are not text haevy that should have made it to the US. Why they didn't is beyond me. Tons of shooters for one.
It's like they just gave up and didn't bother.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Damon Plus on November 06, 2011, 06:22:01 AM
Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nat on November 06, 2011, 06:24:56 AM
I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 06, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.
I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.
Yeah, it was a legit release, not only that but the system is design wise different from the US TurboGrafx, different colored plastic, different clock speed, AV coming out of the system itself. This wasn't a gray market import.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: c0ldb33r on November 06, 2011, 07:56:33 AM
did the PAL games run at regular speed?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigT on November 06, 2011, 08:07:40 AM
I bought one of the PAL systems as a curiosity... it has legit and official looking packaging. Certainly seems like a limited official release. The actual console has a nice gray finish.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Damon Plus on November 06, 2011, 08:31:33 AM
Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.
I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.
Yeah, it was a legit release, not only that but the system is design wise different from the US TurboGrafx, different colored plastic, different clock speed, AV coming out of the system itself. This wasn't a gray market import.
Didn't thought of that. Also, it was 1991 in Spain, not 1992. Games run at 50 Hz.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 06, 2011, 08:33:53 AM
The PAL system ran at 50HZ as mentioned above. The games were just US HuCards so in certain cases they ran slow. Very similar to the Genesis/ European Mega Drive in the sense that they generally weren't modifying games to run correctly on a PAL system.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 06, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
They would run slower if they were timed with the vsync rather than the timer. Most games were times to vsync so yeah, I think most games would probably run slower.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 06, 2011, 09:23:34 AM
I've explained the tap thing before but people don't usually tend to understand it, heh. The system was designed for multiplayer from the start, and the single-port setup was a serious advantage for developers because the system was mind-numbingly easy to code multiplayer games for. An easy system to work with = more potential developers = more games produced = more money made = more happy kids.
Not really buying it. First, there aren't exactly a ton of multiplayer games for the PCE. Secondly, there is no way you could fit 5 human beings in a single Japanese dwelling simultaneously. The biggest dwelling in Japan is the size of my bathtub. Third of all, most people wanted to play two player games, not 5. So going from systems that included to ports and two controllers (NES and SMS) to one port and one controller with an idiotic accessory to buy if you even wanted to play two players is a really bad marketing decision. Fourthly, "a single port is a huge advantage for developers because it is so easy to code multiplayer" doesn't even make any sense. At all. That's like saying "We sell hot dogs because hamburgers are so delicious".
Bottom line, they should have figured something else out, allowed for two players and if people wanted 5 they could buy the stupid adapter, just like the other systems.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 06, 2011, 10:46:33 AM
Not really buying it. First, there aren't exactly a ton of multiplayer games for the PCE. Secondly, there is no way you could fit 5 human beings in a single Japanese dwelling simultaneously. The biggest dwelling in Japan is the size of my bathtub. Third of all, most people wanted to play two player games, not 5. So going from systems that included to ports and two controllers (NES and SMS) to one port and one controller with an idiotic accessory to buy if you even wanted to play two players is a really bad marketing decision. Fourthly, "a single port is a huge advantage for developers because it is so easy to code multiplayer" doesn't even make any sense. At all. That's like saying "We sell hot dogs because hamburgers are so delicious".
Bottom line, they should have figured something else out, allowed for two players and if people wanted 5 they could buy the stupid adapter, just like the other systems.
You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down. And it doesn't matter if a lot of games were made for it that supported five players... the plan was multiplayer from the start. It doesn't matter what you "buy"... reality and history are not subject to your approval.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Flare65 on November 06, 2011, 10:50:04 AM
Very interesting readl. Didn't know about the exclusive Mortal Kombat deal. That would have been a game changer for sure.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 06, 2011, 10:59:29 AM
You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down. And it doesn't matter if a lot of games were made for it that supported five players... the plan was multiplayer from the start. It doesn't matter what you "buy"... reality and history are not subject to your approval.
Yes, but the point he's making is they simply could have put the turbo tap internally in the system and given 2,3,4 or 5 ports to the buyer from day one without having to buy a multi-tap.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 06, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
That would have increased the size of the system by quite a bit.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 06, 2011, 11:11:05 AM
Of the PC Engine, yes, but not the Turbo.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: c0ldb33r on November 06, 2011, 11:12:30 AM
that would have been a neat addition. 5 ports on the front of the unit.
If they planned it, it would have looked good a la gamecube or dreamcast.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: vestcoat on November 06, 2011, 11:17:29 AM
one of the biggest failures of the system was the necessity to buy extra adapters for multiplayer, composite video/stereo sound, etc. That's just extremely stupid design.
Let's not forget the "RPG Adapter": the $400 CD-ROM!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 06, 2011, 11:36:12 AM
No, that was the composite adapter that could also play a track from the Scorpions' "Winds of Change" album.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: vestcoat on November 06, 2011, 11:53:58 AM
Man, I'm still pissed about all of the adapters/accessories required to do anything. I was so happy when I bought my TurboGrafx in '92; and then I realized...
Want stereo sound? Buy TurboBooster - $34.99 Want to play with a friend? Buy TurboTap and TurboPad - $39.98 Want to save your game/scores? Buy TurboBooster Plus - $59.99 Want to play the best-looking games on the system? Buy CD-ROM player - $299.99 Want to play the new best-looking games on the system? Buy SuperCD ROM Card - $59.99 ](*,)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: c0ldb33r on November 06, 2011, 11:59:39 AM
Want to play the best games? Buy PC Engine converter - $ priceless Want to play kickass fighting games? Buy arcade card
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 06, 2011, 12:19:07 PM
I never thought it was that bad, especially considering the low price of the TG16 when I bought it. When you add everything up, it comes out to about the same as other consoles of the era for the basics. CDROM drives weren't cheap for either console back then, so that's really a non-issue. I thought that the Booster accessories were kind of stupid when the CDROM accessory had all their function and then some, but hey... NEC liked their add-ons.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: henrycsc on November 06, 2011, 12:35:51 PM
The TGCD and the TurboExpress were extremely expensive, but they were also very expensive to produce back then. It would have been nice to at least have the tap packaged with an extra controller. Didn't the genesis only come with one controller in the box? Having a tap/pad combo might have evened out some of the whining.
Also they could have provided an alternate version with the turbo booster plus built in. That probably would have gotten a lot of attention - having memory save built into the console. Would there have been a conflict with using such a system on a TGCD base that also has the memory save?
I personally like(d) the idea of the tap. The 5 player turbo games were the first party games that I was exposed to. Did they invent this concept or were there (more than 2 player) party games before NEC?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 06, 2011, 12:44:42 PM
The TGCD and the TurboExpress were extremely expensive, but they were also very expensive to produce back then. It would have been nice to at least have the tap packaged with an extra controller. Didn't the genesis only come with one controller in the box? Having a tap/pad combo might have evened out some of the whining.
The original model Genesis came with one controller, and RF switch an Altered Beast. It also had TWO controller ports, and an AV out port (yes, it required buying a cable but it was cheaper than a Turbo Booster), and a stereo sound headphone out port on the front. The original model SNES came with two controllers, stereo AV cables, and an RF switch (along with Super Mario World).
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I personally like(d) the idea of the tap. The 5 player turbo games were the first party games that I was exposed to. Did they invent this concept or were there (more than 2 player) party games before NEC?
there were four player games on the NES that required the NES Satellite or Four Score. The Atari 5200 had some four player games as well.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 06, 2011, 01:10:00 PM
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there were four player games on the NES that required the NES Satellite or Four Score. The Atari 5200 had some four player games as well.
The four player games on the NES were far and between. I don't even think the original Bomberman on the NES was four players. I do know that the SNES, Genesis at the time had few 4 player games and I believe it wasn't until the Saturn when we saw 8 player games. Anyway, as far as I know, the turbo/pce had quite a few more multiplayer games then the Genesis or the SNES even with the 1 port handicap.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 06, 2011, 05:38:40 PM
You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down.
I would contend that there are other ways to have included more than one port and still have used the single timer polling setup. One would be to put all 5 ports on the system. This would have made the PC engine larger, true, but not a lot larger. The tap is mostly air and cables inside, but inside the system they could have used a different wiring scheme. Another solution would have been to use a different type of controller connector. Maybe one where the 1P port has only a couple pin holes but the 2P port is the same shape with more pins. Controllers have only a few pins and can connect to either port, but you can buy a 4 player tap that only works plugged into port 2 that gives you the full 5 controller array. Even better, have two ports and a mediating chip that can run the ports in two different modes. If a controller is connected it polls the port one way and if a tap is connected to one or both it polls them a different way. The chip then passes up the data to the system in a standardized fashion regardless of whether it is getting the input from a controller connected directly or via a tap. Remove the need of the programmer to have to interpret controller input. There are just off the top of my head and not very elegant. I'm sure a dedicated hardware engineer could do a lot better.
I do still think the single controller port looked cool on the PCE due to the size. On the TG it just looked stupid. The whole "multiplayer by design" thing seems like a misread of the readiness of the market, especially given how many games were released that didn't even have 2 player play. Sure, it might have been easier to program, but having to buy another peripheral means you're programming to a smaller audience, and especially in Japan, you're not likely to have more than two people in front of a TV at any given time, anyway. The 5-player thing would definitely have been more of an advantage in the US. If only NEC/TTI had managed to attract some kind of critical sports support ('cause TV Sports just didn't do it). A good sports series tie-up and 5 controller ports on the front of the system could have been something of a marketing coup. What if they'd struck a deal with EA?
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I never thought it was that bad, especially considering the low price of the TG16 when I bought it. When you add everything up, it comes out to about the same as other consoles of the era for the basics.
The price for the TG was only lower once the market for the TG was already on the decline. Not major decline yet, but decline all the same. I bought my system when the price dropped to $99 (but didn't yet have Bonk as the pack-in) and the other systems were still $149, but at that time only Toys R Us still had a great selection. EB and Software Etc had acceptable shelf space devoted to the system (a single, square patch of wall), but I never saw TG stuff at Sears, very little at KB, and never at the big box stores. The only games I remember being released new once I'd bought my system came from TTI or WD. Every NEC game was already pretty much on the market by the time the price dropped, IIRC.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 06, 2011, 09:37:27 PM
The four player games on the NES were far and between. I don't even think the original Bomberman on the NES was four players. I do know that the SNES, Genesis at the time had few 4 player games and I believe it wasn't until the Saturn when we saw 8 player games. Anyway, as far as I know, the turbo/pce had quite a few more multiplayer games then the Genesis or the SNES even with the 1 port handicap.
Yeah, the original Bomberman does not support it, but a lot of games did. Per Wikipedia,
* Bomberman II * Danny Sullivan's Indy Heat * Gauntlet II * Greg Norman's Golf Power * Harlem Globetrotters * Kings of the Beach * Magic Johnson's Fast Break * Monster Truck Rally * M.U.L.E.[2] * NES Play Action Football * A Nightmare on Elm Street * Nintendo World Cup * R.C. Pro-Am II * Rackets & Rivals * Roundball: 2 on 2 Challenge * Spot * Smash TV * Super Off Road * Super Jeopardy! * Super Spike V'Ball * Swords and Serpents * Top Players' Tennis
That's 22 games, while not a ton of games, it's definitely notable.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 07, 2011, 01:15:50 AM
They should have just wired the turbo tap internally and attached it to the back of the controller port.
But, it would look really retarded with 5 controller ports in the front of it.
It's not a big deal for the PCE, since the PCE succeeded hardcore there.
But the Turbob should've had the tap wired up inside.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 07, 2011, 01:51:07 AM
They should have just wired the turbo tap internally and attached it to the back of the controller port.
But, it would look really retarded with 5 controller ports in the front of it.
It's not a big deal for the PCE, since the PCE succeeded hardcore there.
But the Turbob should've had the tap wired up inside.
I made a mock up of what one would look like with three in front, keep in mind this is of full size TG16 ports and not the smaller mini ports used on the Duo and PC engine. You could very easily put the extra 2 or 3 ports on the side of the system.
You could very easily put the extra 2 or 3 ports on the side of the system.
This would be a very poor idea.
It wouldn't sit right on shelves, someone would undoubtedly twist the unit around while moving around flailing in the middle of super volleyball.
It reminds me of the minimig, that stupid amiga clone that has ports on every friggin side, so you can't sit the thing anywhere nicely. Theres octopus wires everywhere
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 07, 2011, 02:03:25 AM
It wouldn't sit right on shelves, someone would undoubtedly twist the unit around while moving around flailing in the middle of super volleyball.
It reminds me of the minimig, that stupid amiga clone that has ports on every friggin side, so you can't sit the thing anywhere nicely. Theres octopus wires everywhere
You could also just put them further over on the lefthand side of the system. I'm just saying considering the size of the TG16 it's very easy to include five ports on the system.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 07, 2011, 02:13:23 AM
Yeah if you stuck all 5 in a row on the front, I'd be down.
I thought about doing it myself with my TurboTap, but I like the turbo tap too much to open it and ruin it.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 07, 2011, 06:44:20 AM
They should have used the Mini DINs as ports, not the giganto-DINs.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 07, 2011, 06:56:16 AM
They should have used the Mini DINs as ports, not the giganto-DINs.
No argument here, I had repeated problems with the pins on the regular DINs breaking off and having to replace controllers. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Necromancer on November 07, 2011, 07:48:12 AM
Not much that hasn't been discussed here ad naseum, but this caught my eye:
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... to lesser-known marvels like the multiplayer puzzle game Color Wars.
I wonder why this particular title caught the author's attention; it seemed pretty blah to me.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 07, 2011, 04:50:50 PM
Does anyone know why the giant DINs were used for the TurboGrafx-16 instead of the mini-DIN used on the PCE? Was this sort sort of sick and twisted region protection?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 07, 2011, 05:15:56 PM
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Does anyone know why the giant DINs were used for the TurboGrafx-16 instead of the mini-DIN used on the PCE? Was this sort sort of sick and twisted region protection?
I often wondered that too, then again you could always get a converter from the mini-din to the big dins, but I guess the question I have is it possible to to use turbo sticks with the converter on a japanese duo?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nat on November 07, 2011, 05:35:39 PM
I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 07, 2011, 05:56:50 PM
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I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.
Cause I already got em ^^. Plus, I don't feel like paying $40 bucks for a Japanese turbo stick on ebay where I got these for $10 a piece brand new from TZD back in the late 90s. However, I was shocked to find out my little 3 dollar converter is 25 dollars on the bay these days....
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 07, 2011, 09:47:26 PM
I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.
With the current low dollar to yen value and high shipping costs from Japan, it's definitely easier to buy the US Turbo sticks if you come across them. A store nearby had like 2 or 3 just sitting about a year ago, unfortunately I rarely use my actual TG16 opting instead to use the Duo, and I don't own an adapter, otherwise I would have bought one.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 12:37:12 AM
I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.
I had been meaning to put this up but had forgotten over the past few days. So just to clear up any misconceptions the PAL TurboGrafx is legit, just looking at the bottom of the PAL TurboGrafx it's easily apparent that this is a legit item.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 08, 2011, 12:43:31 AM
Its not NTSC legit though. It's "damn this game is running goony" legit.
Bonk's music sounds funny in PAL land. I recall it being slowed down slightly, obviously, and it was pretty comical. I think the slowdown works out to about 12%
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Senshi on November 08, 2011, 02:09:17 AM
nevermind
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 08, 2011, 02:13:03 AM
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Marll on November 08, 2011, 04:28:26 AM
There were plenty of things that contributed to the downfall of the system, but I think these are the big ones:
Crap Marketing: I saw exactly 2 TV commercials for the Turbo during its height. And I was living in the Seattle area, not exactly a tiny market Crap Box Art: Come on! When you placed Turbo boxes next to Genesis they looked downright retarded. I think box art alone drove plenty of people to the Genesis when given the choice. Crap Pack In: Take this with a grain of salt. I really like KC, I really do. BUT as a packin to show off the system, not the best. Probably should have been KC and 1 other game. Maybe Blazing Lazers, and certainly Bonk later.
Even at 12 or so I knew these things were f*cked up and probably could have ran their marketing division in the US better than they did. They should have translated and brought over way more Japanese games, especially RPGs. That's what I wanted more than anything else at the time, and while we did have some good ones, there just weren't enough. They also should should have quit f*cking with the Japanese box/cover art, replace the Japanese text with English and leave well enough alone. There have been plenty of threads about this topic, so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 04:35:05 AM
Crap Pack In: Take this with a grain of salt. I really like KC, I really do. BUT as a packin to show off the system, not the best. Probably should have been KC and 1 other game. Maybe Blazing Lazers, and certainly Bonk later.
In Europe the pack in was Blazing Lazers.
With that said, in the US as you suggested at various times they did pack in various Bonk games (there's pictures of various Bonk promotional bundles). I remember when I got my system for Christmas in 1990 there was a mail in deal for a free extra game from a choice of about 30.
Quote
Even at 12 or so I knew these things were f*cked up and probably could have ran their marketing division in the US better than they did. They should have translated and brought over way more Japanese games, especially RPGs. That's what I wanted more than anything else at the time, and while we did have some good ones, there just weren't enough. They also should should have quit f*cking with the Japanese box/cover art, replace the Japanese text with English and leave well enough alone. There have been plenty of threads about this topic, so I'll leave it at that.
The problem with bringing over RPGs is that they would have been on CD, there weren't a lot of HuCard RPGs, and CD-ROMs were too expensive at the time to make the system a mainstream hit, they would have been forced to cater to a niche market.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: rag-time4 on November 08, 2011, 04:51:55 AM
The most interesting statement to me in the article was the idea that NEC should have "done more with Bonk."
At first i thought it made a lot of sense, but the more i think about it, i think they should have done more with JJ and Jeff. I remember as a kid how in turbo ads they would talk trash about the NES, and they seemed to take shots at mario 3 in particular, but it felt like pure propaganda. Bonk has always felt clunky and stiff to me. In a head to head comparison, JJ and Jeff win running away for smooth run and kick platforming.
Bonk had sequel after sequel but wasnt able to carry the platform to success because the games didnt compare to mario and sonic. JJ and Jeff had more potential but never got a sequel.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 08, 2011, 05:02:14 AM
The problem with bringing over RPGs is that they would have been on CD, there weren't a lot of HuCard RPGs, and CD-ROMs were too expensive at the time to make the system a mainstream hit, they would have been forced to cater to a niche market.
Necromancer and Outlive would have been good frigging ideas.
and, I would have dug Sindibad.
These are all hueys too.
Necromancer should have been brought over. That games awesome.
They should have packed China Warrior and keith courage in together. Altered Beast was the genesis packin for awhile, and its not like that games super-awesome.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 05:22:28 AM
They should have packed China Warrior and keith courage in together. Altered Beast was the genesis packin for awhile, and its not like that games super-awesome.
Yep, the Genesis didn't really take off until Sonic was packed in with the system two years later. But a lot of people forget that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 08, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
There are many HuCard RPGs, especially compared to the perceived number of Genesis JRPGs.
The main problem with bringing over PCE RPGs is that RPGs were unpopular during that generation.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 06:09:20 AM
There are many HuCard RPGs, especially compared to the perceived number of Genesis JRPGs.
The main problem with bringing over PCE RPGs is that RPGs were unpopular during that generation.
How many were there? I was thinking a dozen or so at most.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 08, 2011, 06:17:07 AM
Yeah, I'm not so sure RPGs would've done much to save the Turbo. It didn't seem like RPGs really took off in the States until after FFVII.
If anything, some more decent flashy platformers like Bonk, more licensed games like TMNT, Street Fighter 2 being localized (though by that time, the writing was on the wall), and even a tiny bit of support from publishers like Konami and Capcom would've done wonders.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 08, 2011, 07:03:16 AM
RPGs were huge back then in my area. Thats all my older relatives and their friends talked about/played. Commodore 64/DOS RPGs, NES ones. Dragon Warrior was like crack around here.
There is also a really heavy penpaper/table top gaming history / scene, so maybe its all related?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 07:45:46 AM
RPGs were huge back then in my area. Thats all my older relatives and their friends talked about/played. Commodore 64/DOS RPGs, NES ones. Dragon Warrior was like crack around here.
There is also a really heavy penpaper/table top gaming history / scene, so maybe its all related?
The problem was that RPGs required reading. Kids found them boring and not having enough action and being too wordy at the time.
With that said I loved Dragon Warrior as a kid and spent countless hours playing RPGs from about age 7, but.. at a time when the gaming industry was seen entirely as a sub-section of the toy industry RPGs weren't the most popular genre.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: A_Locomotive on November 08, 2011, 07:54:21 AM
Really? Were they mostly Japanese? What about English releases, I know of the Neutopias, Dungeon Explorer and Double Dungeons but what else was there? I'd love to play some RPGs on my TG16 so if you could drop some names that would be awesome. :]
I read the article and I must say I think the part about the name being a reason it failed is idiotic, TurboGrafx-16 isn't hard to spell or remember unless your a moron so I think they were just grasping at straws in an attempt to extend the article.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 08, 2011, 11:09:02 AM
There are many HuCard RPGs, especially compared to the perceived number of Genesis JRPGs.
The main problem with bringing over PCE RPGs is that RPGs were unpopular during that generation.
How many were there? I was thinking a dozen or so at most.
That's just about how many JRPGs were brought over for SNES.
Quote
I read the article and I must say I think the part about the name being a reason it failed is idiotic, TurboGrafx-16 isn't hard to spell or remember unless your a moron so I think they were just grasping at straws in an attempt to extend the article.
Before they became household names, what do you think the average kid would've thought of words like "Sega", "Genesis" or "Nintendo". I guarantee that none could've told you what a Sega or Nintendo was. But I don't think that any kid at the time would've been clueless about words like "Turbo", "Graphics" or "Sixteen".
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 11:52:51 AM
That's just about how many JRPGs were brought over for SNES.
I don't think RPGs helped the SNES much either, these days people like to go back and fondly remember playing Chrono Trigger, Earhbound and Final Fantasy 6. But none of those games were monster sellers in the US, the only one that sold particularly well was Super Mario RPG, because it had Mario in it.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 08, 2011, 12:17:28 PM
That's just about how many JRPGs were brought over for SNES.
I don't think RPGs helped the SNES much either, these days people like to go back and fondly remember playing Chrono Trigger, Earhbound and Final Fantasy 6. But none of those games were monster sellers in the US, the only one that sold particularly well was Super Mario RPG, because it had Mario in it.
I agree. Although RPGs have been my favorite since the 8-bit generation, I've never pretended that they were mainstream or hardware sellers bitd.
Someone just said that there weren't many PCE RPGs on HuCard. But going by what North Americans were used to, even by the number of JRPGs that were on the console that is remembered as having loads of them, there was a good amount of PCE HuCard JRPGs. The PCE has more RPGs and RPGish games than SFC and a comparable number of RPG/ish games as it does shooters. But non-PCE-fans love to say how the PCE only has shooters and that the SNES/SFC was the king of RPGs.
Quote
In Europe the pack in was Blazing Lazers.
The PAL TurboGrafx pack-in was random. Mine came with Alien Crush.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 08, 2011, 01:46:05 PM
I don't know about the RPG argument. I think people forget about a group of gamers that came from the AD&D era. Most of my friends and the like were way into RPG's on the consoles. I still remember us all thinking the Sega Master System was so much better than the Genesis because it had Phantasy Star on it! :lol: We ran through games like Shadowgate, Immortal, The Dragon Warrior Games. Zelda was HUGE. When I had my Turbo Grafx and nobody else did, we all went out looking for the Neutopia games and tried, very in Vain sadly, to find AD&D Order of the Phoenix. Also, many of the people I knew were talking about the Turbo Grafx CD system because of the Y's games and the Valis games. We all wanted the Sega CD system too after seeing Lunar the Silver Star and Shining Force CD.Those were the games that were popular here in Palmdale California. Most of the kids here thought that shooters were cool and the like but most of them liked playing those in Arcades. We thought that RPG's were cool because it was something unique to the consoles. Just a side look is all I am saying. RPG's may not have been the end all of the consoles at the time, but there were a large number of gamers that did play them and enjoy them.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 08, 2011, 09:42:30 PM
I don't know about the RPG argument. I think people forget about a group of gamers that came from the AD&D era. Most of my friends and the like were way into RPG's on the consoles. I still remember us all thinking the Sega Master System was so much better than the Genesis because it had Phantasy Star on it! :lol: We ran through games like Shadowgate, Immortal, The Dragon Warrior Games. Zelda was HUGE. When I had my Turbo Grafx and nobody else did, we all went out looking for the Neutopia games and tried, very in Vain sadly, to find AD&D Order of the Phoenix. Also, many of the people I knew were talking about the Turbo Grafx CD system because of the Y's games and the Valis games. We all wanted the Sega CD system too after seeing Lunar the Silver Star and Shining Force CD.Those were the games that were popular here in Palmdale California. Most of the kids here thought that shooters were cool and the like but most of them liked playing those in Arcades. We thought that RPG's were cool because it was something unique to the consoles. Just a side look is all I am saying. RPG's may not have been the end all of the consoles at the time, but there were a large number of gamers that did play them and enjoy them.
There's no doubt that RPGs had an audience, but they weren't, by any means, system sellers.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 09, 2011, 05:12:11 AM
they werent system sellers?
that is probably why N64 failed. No RPGs. Theres like, 3 of them.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 09, 2011, 05:31:10 AM
that is probably why N64 failed. No RPGs. Theres like, 3 of them.
The first RPG that was a system seller in the US at least, is widely regarding as being Final Fantasy VII (this in no way reflects the quality of the game, merely the popularity of it).
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 09, 2011, 06:18:03 AM
Interesting article. I personally think the PCE/DUO were ahead of their time by having only one controller port and forcing the buyer to pay for add-ons to have stereo sound, composite, and multiplayer. The Playstation and PS2 are almost entirely single player affairs, this proves for all time that the masses tend to play games alone in a dark room and rarely shower.
Also, the DINs were huge on the TurboGrafx-16 (spelt right) because everybody knows that Americans have huge hands and are intrinsically clumsier than Japanese people.
I personally have not noticed the TurboGrafx-16 or DUO considered a failure in gaming circles like the Saturn frequently is. Both are considered elite hard-core gaming havens by real gamers, but in my experience only the TG16/DUO gets recognized as such. It is nearly impossible to find a thread about the Saturn that doesn't include the phrase "horrible mess," by comparison.
Wait a minute, did 1-up seriously base a multi-page article on multiple consoles on the opinions of Victor Ireland?!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 09, 2011, 06:35:11 AM
I don't know about the RPG argument. I think people forget about a group of gamers that came from the AD&D era. Most of my friends and the like were way into RPG's on the consoles. I still remember us all thinking the Sega Master System was so much better than the Genesis because it had Phantasy Star on it! :lol: We ran through games like Shadowgate, Immortal, The Dragon Warrior Games. Zelda was HUGE. When I had my Turbo Grafx and nobody else did, we all went out looking for the Neutopia games and tried, very in Vain sadly, to find AD&D Order of the Phoenix. Also, many of the people I knew were talking about the Turbo Grafx CD system because of the Y's games and the Valis games. We all wanted the Sega CD system too after seeing Lunar the Silver Star and Shining Force CD.Those were the games that were popular here in Palmdale California. Most of the kids here thought that shooters were cool and the like but most of them liked playing those in Arcades. We thought that RPG's were cool because it was something unique to the consoles. Just a side look is all I am saying. RPG's may not have been the end all of the consoles at the time, but there were a large number of gamers that did play them and enjoy them.
Myself and a few others in my hometown were also huge RPG fans and I often saw the same people when buying second hand games through the local paper. But everyone else was playing platformers and the latest edition of NHL' .
There has always been a large number of RPG console fans, but they were always a tiny percentage of the market before FFVII. Even FFIII(VI) was supposed to have broken new ground for RPGs popularity wise, but it and Chrono Trigger and PSIV sold very poorly compared to real hits and were special cases when non-RPG fans would play them, but not hunt down other RPGs afterward.
If RPGs were popular enough before FFVII, we would have recieved Final Fantasy 2, 3 & 5, at least Dragon Warrior 5 & 6 and Capcom would have brought over Breath of Fire 1.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 09, 2011, 06:36:33 AM
I personally have not noticed the TurboGrafx-16 or DUO considered a failure in gaming circles like the Saturn frequently is. Both are considered elite hard-core gaming havens by real gamers, but in my experience only the TG16/DUO gets recognized as such. It is nearly impossible to find a thread about the Saturn that doesn't include the phrase "horrible mess," by comparison.
Wait a minute, did 1-up seriously base a multi-page article on multiple consoles on the opinions of Victor Ireland?!
There's other reasons for that. I LOVE the Saturn, but.. it was extremely difficult to develop for and properly optimize the hardware. It was expensive and difficult to consolidate making it more difficult for Sega to keep up with price drops, it was launched early with very few games in the US.
Simply put there's a lot more to complain about with the Saturn, it was a horrible mess, but that doesn't mean it also wasn't a great hardcore gaming system.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 09, 2011, 06:49:15 AM
I personally have not noticed the TurboGrafx-16 or DUO considered a failure in gaming circles like the Saturn frequently is. Both are considered elite hard-core gaming havens by real gamers, but in my experience only the TG16/DUO gets recognized as such. It is nearly impossible to find a thread about the Saturn that doesn't include the phrase "horrible mess," by comparison.
Wait a minute, did 1-up seriously base a multi-page article on multiple consoles on the opinions of Victor Ireland?!
There's other reasons for that. I LOVE the Saturn, but.. it was extremely difficult to develop for and properly optimize the hardware. It was expensive and difficult to consolidate making it more difficult for Sega to keep up with price drops, it was launched early with very few games in the US.
Simply put there's a lot more to complain about with the Saturn, it was a horrible mess, but that doesn't mean it also wasn't a great hardcore gaming system.
Yeah, I question that line every time I see it though. I think it is an exaggeration to say that the Saturn was overly complex to code for in comparison to contemporary consoles. The reality was that it was more time consuming to hand write 3D engines in assembly than it was to use Sony's C libraries for the PS1. Even with that difference though, many Saturn games were ported by a single programmer, that is a far cry from being overly complex.
For posterity, I hope the record gets set straight that Sega's not providing adequate C libraries as early as Sony did created the perception of the Saturn's complexity long before developers learned of any idiosyncrasies in the actual hardware design.
To me it is no different than somebody saying that the PCE/TG16 couldn't do parallax because it was too hard to implement. Not only do games in the existing library prove this statement false, we also know technically that the system could handle parallax through various means.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 09, 2011, 06:52:05 AM
Yeah, I question that line every time I see it though. I think it is an exaggeration to say that the Saturn was overly complex to code for in comparison to contemporary consoles. The reality was that it was more time consuming to hand write 3D engines in assembly than it was to use Sony's C libraries for the PS1. Even with that difference though, many Saturn games were ported by a single programmer, that is a far cry from being overly complex.
For posterity, I hope the record gets set straight that Sega's not providing adequate C libraries as early as Sony did created the perception of the Saturn's complexity long before developers learned of any idiosyncrasies in the actual hardware design.
To me it is no different than somebody saying that the PCE/TG16 couldn't do parallax because it was too hard to implement. Not only do games in the existing library prove this statement false, we also know technically that the system could handle parallax through various means.
It was definitely more time consuming. Also, you left out the whole performance hit when going from Quadralaterals to Polygonal Triangles. And Sega never provided C libraries that were comparable to the development tools Sony did, that's a lot of the problem. The unusual architecture made the system far more difficult to develop for, plain and simple.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 09, 2011, 06:54:11 AM
Not to mention the Saturn in general is just wonky to program for. It's powerful, but wonky in comparison to say, The Glorious PC-FX, and even the PS1
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 09, 2011, 08:05:57 AM
Not to mention the Saturn in general is just wonky to program for. It's powerful, but wonky in comparison to say, The Glorious PC-FX, and even the PS1
Man, I hated the original Playstation. Not to say that the system doesn't have good games, but I still have a LAUNCH Saturn that still works. However, I went through 7 Playstations. How is that possible especially since I played my Saturn more.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: A_Locomotive on November 09, 2011, 02:13:28 PM
Not to mention the Saturn in general is just wonky to program for. It's powerful, but wonky in comparison to say, The Glorious PC-FX, and even the PS1
Man, I hated the original Playstation. Not to say that the system doesn't have good games, but I still have a LAUNCH Saturn that still works. However, I went through 7 Playstations. How is that possible especially since I played my Saturn more.
I've gone through 4, 2 of the original design and 2 of the slim models. The last slim works but it for some reason needs to be upside down to work. lol
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 09, 2011, 02:20:54 PM
Quote
I've gone through 4, 2 of the original design and 2 of the slim models. The last slim works but it for some reason needs to be upside down to work. lol
Yeah went through my share of ps1s and ps2s as well hence the reason why I never bothered with the ps3 or the xbox360, just too high of a failure rate. I'm still very amazed how well the duo has held up even after 20 years, I mean seriously, people are just now starting to have problems with them. Kind of like the toyata supras, over engineered to last a lifetime. ^^
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: roflmao on November 09, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
I'm on my second PS1. The first one I tried to modify myself and botched. It still played games but wouldn't play audio CDs, so I gave it to a friend. The second one (which I purchased in '99 or '00) is still running strong. I had no idea they had such a high failure rate. :shock:
EDIT: I'm still on my first PS2 which I bought in 2003/4. Though when HD Advance was released I quickly bought it, stuck an unused hard drive in my PS2 and moved all my games over to it, so maybe that has helped with its longevity. I still have a few games for the PS2 that wouldn't play properly from the HD Advance, but it's few and far between so the DVD Drive doesn't get a ton of use.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 09, 2011, 02:51:23 PM
My college roommate had an early PS1 without the proprietary A/V output. We had to turn it on its top to play games only a couple of years after he bought it. My PS2 has had the laser adjusted twice, and my 360 has been factory repaired three times. Yeah, that is what I would call a horrible mess. ;)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: A_Locomotive on November 09, 2011, 02:51:54 PM
I've gone through 4, 2 of the original design and 2 of the slim models. The last slim works but it for some reason needs to be upside down to work. lol
Yeah went through my share of ps1s and ps2s as well hence the reason why I never bothered with the ps3 or the xbox360, just too high of a failure rate. I'm still very amazed how well the duo has held up even after 20 years, I mean seriously, people are just now starting to have problems with them. Kind of like the toyata supras, over engineered to last a lifetime. ^^
Early PS2's were a doozy as well. My first one did the thing so many launch ones did and just slowly lose its ability to read, first blue discs, then PS1, then all. Everyone I know who bought a launch PS2 had this happen to them, was very frustrating since this happened not long after the warranty was up. My current one is holding up pretty well, its had some read issues but a little cleaning has always fixed it. But just in case I recently bought a new one to keep in storage for when this one dies.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 09, 2011, 03:46:03 PM
They can't build proper consoles anymore, and that's very sad indeed. I swear that one of the reasons they have moved from Cart to CD is so people have to spend more money on replacing the systems due to them wearing out. I'd buy a console that used SD Card as it's media or something similar. Not like you can't get the same performance out of it without all the moving parts. Then again, I'm sure they'd find a way to screw that up too. Sign of the times is this: My Six Switch Atari 2600, which is over 30 years old, fires right up. Consoles made less than five years ago are dead. See a problem here?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 09, 2011, 03:51:34 PM
Your 6 switch Atari 2600 also doesn't contain tons of heat-sensitive components in a package which only has proper heat exhaust when boneheads don't cover the air escape. :)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 09, 2011, 04:16:45 PM
I still have my original O.G. launch day PS1 (with the dedicated Composite and Stereo outputs in addition to the multi-out). Some games I need to put the unit upside down, mostly CD-Rs. I do not understand why this helps it to work better.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 09, 2011, 05:53:16 PM
I still have my original O.G. launch day PS1 (with the dedicated Composite and Stereo outputs in addition to the multi-out). Some games I need to put the unit upside down, mostly CD-Rs. I do not understand why this helps it to work better.
It's a flaw in the motors from Sony. This has been the case from way back. I have had a DVD Player from Sony, a CD Player and even, get this, a Laserdisc player that were the same. Mind you, in the end, the LD Player had to be put almost completely on it's side to get the motor spinning. I ended up trashing it, sadly in the end because I wasn't about to destroy a Laserdisc just to see if it would work upside down.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 01:16:25 AM
I have a pre-order launch PS1. After 6 months I got the skipping issue, and had to flip it upside down. Well eventually I just replaced the lens and it is still working like a champ.
I also still have my launch Saturn. I don't feel that it was a failure in the US. Yeah, it didn't do great sales wise compard to the ps1 or n64. However, it did last on store shelves a lot longer than the US Duo. (1995-1998) Regardless those two systems are my favorite!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Necromancer on November 10, 2011, 01:49:38 AM
I swear that one of the reasons they have moved from Cart to CD is so people have to spend more money on replacing the systems due to them wearing out. I'd buy a console that used SD Card as it's media or something similar.
It's a cost issue: a 32GB SD card is about $30 right now, and when the 360/PS3 launched they were at least double that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 01:54:53 AM
I swear that one of the reasons they have moved from Cart to CD is so people have to spend more money on replacing the systems due to them wearing out. I'd buy a console that used SD Card as it's media or something similar.
It's a cost issue: a 32GB SD card is about $30 right now, and when the 360/PS3 launched they were at least double that.
5 years ago when they launched, an 8 gig SD card was at least double that. Let alone a 32 GB.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 01:55:04 AM
You can run games off of the SD card for the Wii. A couple years ago they updated the system firmware to support SDHC cards.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 02:40:58 AM
I still have my original O.G. launch day PS1 (with the dedicated Composite and Stereo outputs in addition to the multi-out). Some games I need to put the unit upside down, mostly CD-Rs. I do not understand why this helps it to work better.
its because when it's inverted, gravity helps give it the strength it needs to read accurately. Otherwise its like a 90 year old man reaching for a box of cookies on top the fridge.
Two of my PS1s need this as well.
Ones the composite out one like yours.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 02:49:05 AM
that is probably why N64 failed. No RPGs. Theres like, 3 of them.
Bwah? I'm not computing. The N64 failed? Also, see following post about FF7.
I'm just saying that in the 16 bit days, RPGs hadn't really gained MASS popularity in the States. I enjoyed them, sure, as did many of my friends. But platformers, action games, and sports were the big draw back then; along with Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat. That's all I'm saying, really.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:05:20 AM
The N64 sucked. There are like <=10 games on the thing that are worth a damn:
Mischief Makers Jet Force Gemini Banjo Kazooie OoT and I forget the rest. There weren't that many at all. It's pretty pathetic. The library sucks.
Dumb controller with weak joystick that gets crappy fast, crappy expansions, derpy muddy graphics, cartridges instead of CDs.
and yes, FFVII. That was supposed to be an N64 game but ...
"Please insert cartridge 2" wouldn't have worked, lol.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 03:05:27 AM
RPG's didn't really get "mainstream" till FF7 came out on PSX. [-( Yeah there was a good following on the SNES and earlier systems for the few decent RPG's. Sadly it was FF7 and the internet that helped fuel the "must play rpg" frenzie. So a system in the psx, n64, saturn days wasn't a failure from lack of RPG's.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:09:27 AM
thats why most RPG n00bs are like FFVII IS BEST BIDEO DAEM EVARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. WHATS A SNES?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 03:12:00 AM
The N64 sucked. There are like <=10 games on the thing that are worth a damn:
Mischief Makers Jet Force Gemini Banjo Kazooie OoT and I forget the rest. There weren't that many at all. It's pretty pathetic. The library sucks.
Dumb controller with weak joystick that gets crappy fast, crappy expansions, derpy muddy graphics, cartridges instead of CDs.
and yes, FFVII. That was supposed to be an N64 game but ...
"Please insert cartridge 2" wouldn't have worked, lol.
Ah, I gotcha. Sales-wise, though, not particularly a "failure".
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:18:18 AM
Thats like saying the Wii isn't a failure though... lol
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 03:20:56 AM
Hey, I'm fairly pro-Wii (giggle). At least I WAS until they all but abandoned the damn thing. There are a fair number of really bad-ass games on that machine. (Also a mountain of steaming dog shit).
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 03:27:05 AM
Thats like saying the Wii isn't a failure though... lol
It all depends on what you expected of it, based on the N64 and the GameCube the Wii has easily met and exceeded my expectations. It clearly sold better than anyone expected it would prior to release. I would say it's not a failure.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:40:50 AM
I expected a fun video game console. not a motion sensor gimmick trainwreck that took what 3 or 4 years now to get games that shouldn't be used as coasters?
I didn't find holding my arm out like a dickwad with Metroid Prime 3 to be very immersive.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 03:42:53 AM
I still use my Wii. I still play quite a few actual Wii games. I do play homebrew a lot, and VC as well. When a machine gets popular it is bombarded by "me too" games that plan to make a quick buck on shitty developed software. PSX was the same way. Same goes for the Atari and NES.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:44:10 AM
The difference is, PSX didn't have Carnival Games
and "Wii Sports Resort" or whatever.
WiiPlay. Screw that shit.
Lost in Shadow and Kirby Epic Pocketlint were fun though.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 03:46:27 AM
I expected a fun video game console. not a motion sensor gimmick trainwreck that took what 3 or 4 years now to get games that shouldn't be used as coasters?
I didn't find holding my arm out like a dickwad with Metroid Prime 3 to be very immersive.
There were good games on it for the past few years, it all depends what you like to play. Mario Galaxy, Muramasa, Smash Brothers, Punch Out, Zak and Wiki were all great games that didn't require too much of the novelty of waggle.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:52:32 AM
I stopped liking Mario after the SNES. The new super mario bros Wii was fun for like 30 minutes and then I went "Hey this is SMB3 but not as fun".
I never liked Smash Bros.
Muramasa was definitely a good one though. That was the first thing I'd used my wii for in awhile. The good things are few/far between. It's disappointing.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 03:53:37 AM
Zak and Wiki is awesome! l love all those games you listed Dan. I also love Tatsunoko VS Capcom, Wario Shake It!, DQ Swords, Ravin Rabbids games, Sin and Punishment 2, Super Paper Mario, Opoona, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, Ivy the Kiwi, and Lets Tap!
Ark I do understand your disappointment with the Wii. It does take a while to wait for something really stunning to come out on the Wii. At least you have Turbo/PC-E to ease the pain in waiting haha!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 03:56:16 AM
Some of those games came out so frikkin long ago though and nothing good came out for awhile after that. Trauma Center was a fun game though. Both those ruled.
and Opoona. I liked that one. It's still not so great though. :-/
It's nintendo. there should be shitloads of games that rule, not about 15 of them, tops.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nodtveidt on November 10, 2011, 04:15:54 AM
On the subject of "failure"... I guess it depends on whether you're talking about marketing failure or gaming failure. The N64 and the Wii both tank hard on games, so gaming failure = check. Marketing failure though... the Wii can't seem to get this one wrong. Consumers like the gimmicky shit, and modern-day consumers have a serious case of amnesia, as they get screwed by one gimmick but then are in line for the next. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 04:32:11 AM
Zak and Wiki is awesome! l love all those games you listed Dan. I also love Tatsunoko VS Capcom, Wario Shake It!, DQ Swords, Ravin Rabbids games, Sin and Punishment 2, Super Paper Mario, Opoona, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, Ivy the Kiwi, and Lets Tap!
Ark I do understand your disappointment with the Wii. It does take a while to wait for something really stunning to come out on the Wii. At least you have Turbo/PC-E to ease the pain in waiting haha!
I forgot about Super Paper Mario, that is a great one. Kirbys Epic Yarn is great as well if you've not played it.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 04:42:47 AM
Arkhan: See this thread: http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10557.0
And in particular, this post: http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10557.msg192882#msg192882
Like I said, the Wii support has all but dried up in the past year, but prior to that, I had a lot of fun with it. To call it a "failure", in either definition, is a bit of a stretch. The Jaguar was a failure. The Virtual Boy was a failure. But the Wii? I don't know that I can be convinced of that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 04:47:15 AM
NiGHTs was total crap, and a colossal disappointment.
Noone should play that game.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 04:49:49 AM
It showed everything that was wrong with the frigging WiiMote.
It showed everything that is wrong with Sega's development process.
Half the game is running around as a kid on foot. That's not fun, I want to fly around as NiGHTs damnit.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 10, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
The Wii has plenty of games for people who actually have a life. If you need to play new shit all day every day (or if you only use video games as a subject for internet discussion, and don't actually play them) there won't be enough.
Its very similar to the PSP situation. The good stuff is so comparatively rare that you forget it actually exists. It is there though, and if you feel like giving it a chance you'll probably have fun with it. If you get more out of hating the thing then, well, whatever, have fun with that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 05:44:31 AM
Yes, Nights 2 sucked. Luckily that wasn't the only game on that list. ;)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 05:55:03 AM
The difference with the PSP is the controller isn't a trainwreck of annoyance.
Holding the wiimote sideways to be a ghettoNEScontroller doesn't cut it for me.
I play the Wii more now than I used to but I'm still pretty annoyed by the thing.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 10, 2011, 06:37:43 AM
Done properly I think the motion controls create a fun experience. Most developers found it wasn't easy to do fun and proper motion controls. Hey, I picked up a Classic Controller and bought the Metal Slug collection (which doesn't frikkin work with the Classic, dammit) and the Samurai Shodown collection. Both fantastic and better than the ports for other systems. Very limited/hardcore audience appeal as well. The ability to use GC controllers and games is also a plus, meaning my GC can sit in the other room doing nothing. Also picked up a VC copy of Dracula X.
I admit I don't often play the motion games, and I only own a couple, but some of the modes in Wii Sports Resort are lots of fun. I love Frisbee Golf. I can play that for a while any time. Sure, the motion controls aren't perfect, but they're damn good enough. I'm a lot better at FG on the Wii than in real life. Given how early to the market Nintendo was with motion controls I think they did a fantastic job of them. Nintendo clearly had a handle on how to use them, but most other developers didn't, as should be expected. Innovative control schemes are very hard to work with. Still, even if most of the games on the Wii didn't have a lot of staying power, Nintendo moved a ton of systems and made lots of money. And the few games that did have sticking power were excellent. If that's a failure, I sure wish my bank accounts failed as well as Nintendo's did with the Wii.
So I guess what it comes down to, as always, is that every system has something to love, and for some people there's more to love and for others there's less. Ark clearly sees less to love in the Wii. That's cool. We have enough questions about his own tastes in games ; ) My faves are the NES, the PCE, the Saturn, and the Dreamcast. We've oddly left the DC out of the debate on failed systems in this thread. The DC actually did really well in the US up until Japan pulled the plug. It was the Japanese market that had the most trouble with the DC, and there were actually some really interested games programmed by US and EU developers. This is largely a reversal of the problems with the PCE and Saturn, both of which did well in Japan and less well in the US and were dominated by Japanese developers in terms of the higher-quality output.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 10, 2011, 06:47:27 AM
Quote
We've oddly left the DC out of the debate on failed systems in this thread. The DC actually did really well in the US up until Japan pulled the plug. It was the Japanese market that had the most trouble with the DC, and there were actually some really interested games programmed by US and EU developers. This is largely a reversal of the problems with the PCE and Saturn, both of which did well in Japan and less well in the US and were dominated by Japanese developers in terms of the higher-quality output
Yeah I definetely got down on my Dreamcast. To this day, I don't think there has been any other consoles that have sold a million units the first week it was out (9/9/99). Don't forget that thing can run most emulators like a champ too (except for snes strangely enough lolz) and homebrew! Might as well go on about the endless add ons on the genesis while we are at it. :P
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 10, 2011, 07:11:11 AM
Doesn't the DC though still hold the record in Japan as the "most systems sold" on launch day? With how long it was still getting games in Japan it sure wasn't a total failure.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 07:17:19 AM
Yeah, good point about the Dreamcast. Next to the Turbo, the Dreamcast is my all-time favorite system. I've said that though the Turbo is my favorite, the Dreamcast was the best. It was the last console that I really geeked out about, subscribing to the official magazine, nabbing all the demos, and playing it obsessively. It was a true "gamer's" console, and for the year (or less) that Sega supported it, it had some amazing games. I'm not sure what could have saved it, though, other than EA signing on as a publisher and Sega not having f*cked up their handling of the Saturn in the US, thus not losing assloads of cash.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Doesn't the DC though still hold the record in Japan as the "most systems sold" on launch day? With how long it was still getting games in Japan it sure wasn't a total failure.
No, they shipped only around 170,000 units. Far less than they expected to have ready, there was a very initial shortage. The PS2 and even Wii sold better on launch day.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 07:26:50 AM
Not quite sure what that article has to do with the topic at hand, but at least it's interesting. That said (and maybe a mod can split this thread and move it), the touch screen interface found on tablets and phones is a one-size-(sorta)-fits-all remedy. The alternative would be to build a new interface for every single app, game, program, etc. And there's nothing I hate more than a million accessories for my game consoles. Just gimme one that mostly does the job.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 10, 2011, 08:12:21 AM
it has to do with the Wii/upcoming Wii-U crap, since we were talking about wii!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 10, 2011, 08:39:22 AM
Yeah... (You really hate the Wii).
So guys, how 'bout that death of the TurboGrafx-16?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Necromancer on November 10, 2011, 09:00:02 AM
So guys, how 'bout that death of the TurboGrafx-16?
'Twas more of a still birth, considering how they stumbled with it from day one. Ah well, I still love the little Turbob that could.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 10, 2011, 11:06:58 AM
I think 1989 and 1990 was a pretty close race with the Genesis honestly. It wasn't until 1991 that the Genesis really started to pull away in software. Their software libraries were comparable up to about summer of 1991 (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/view/browse/notablegames?field_year_value_op=between&field_year_value%5Bvalue%5D=1985-2005&field_year_value%5Bmin%5D=1989&field_year_value%5Bmax%5D=1991&field_system_value_op=word&field_system_value=Genesis+TurboGrafx&title_op=contains&title=). Also, there was quite a bit of visibility for the TG16 on its own (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/turbografx-16) and even in relation to the Genesis and SNES (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/1989-1990-competing-speculation).
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 11:28:42 AM
I think 1989 and 1990 was a pretty close race with the Genesis honestly. It wasn't until 1991 that the Genesis really started to pull away in software. Their software libraries were comparable up to about summer of 1991 (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/view/browse/notablegames?field_year_value_op=between&field_year_value%5Bvalue%5D=1985-2005&field_year_value%5Bmin%5D=1989&field_year_value%5Bmax%5D=1991&field_system_value_op=word&field_system_value=Genesis+TurboGrafx&title_op=contains&title=). Also, there was quite a bit of visibility for the TG16 on its own (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/turbografx-16) and even in relation to the Genesis and SNES (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/1989-1990-competing-speculation).
Yep, Sonic was the big rocket that moved the Genesis permanently forward in 1991.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 10, 2011, 11:33:14 AM
I don't think Sonic could have been responsible for all of those games coming out the same year. It certainly wasn't responsible for the drop off in HuCard releases that year. Really though, with the Turbo CD included the Turbo was still competitive even in 1991.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 10, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
Quote
I don't think Sonic could have been responsible for all of those games coming out the same year. It certainly wasn't responsible for the drop off in HuCard releases that year. Really though, with the Turbo CD included the Turbo was still competitive even in 1991.
I think we all agree it would have been more competitive if Nintendo didn't have such a grip on its third party developers and if we saw a U.S release of Sega arcade games like Outrun, Altered Beast and even its god awful port of Golden Axe. Or even as the article stated if we saw a Mortal Kombat exclusive for the Duo.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 11:49:55 AM
I think we all agree it would have been more competitive if Nintendo didn't have such a grip on its third party developers and if we saw a U.S release of Sega arcade games like Outrun, Altered Beast and even its god awful port of Golden Axe. Or even as the article stated if we saw a Mortal Kombat exclusive for the Duo.
Mortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 10, 2011, 11:56:44 AM
Quote
Mortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.
Who knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display! We all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time, so why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 12:00:53 PM
Who knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display! We all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time, so why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..
By April of 1992 TTI was running the show, and they had a very limited budget and had narrowed their intended business plan to appealing to a niche audience. By the time TTI was running the show it was already too late for the Turbo to make a run at the other two big 16-bit consoles.
One other note, I suspect Mortal Kombat wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it were a Turbo exclusive.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 10, 2011, 12:05:40 PM
I think that Mortal Kombat's influence on Genesis sales is almost entirely over stated. But if it had come out on the Turbo without censorship and in at least as good form as the Genesis version I would bet it would have moved more systems than actually sold that year. We really are talking about 1993 though, so we are in retro-fantasy land to think that a major third party title could be Turbo exclusive.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 10, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
Mortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.
Who knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display!
First off; Mortal Kombat is shit. I wouldn't want a TG-16 that was identified with that crap series.
Leaving that aside though, I really don't see a TG-16 ver of MK being all that great. It is a very atmospheric game and the TG-16 sound chip...while its pretty good at beeps and boops, it can't really do anything very "ambient". The SNES excels in this area, and frankly I think even the Genesis is more well equipped. Of course they could have put it on CD and had great music, but then you just wouldn't have enough RAM. Even the Sega CD one loads mid-fight for when the boss changes into other characters.
Quote
We all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time,
Yeah, maybe you know that. Most of us know that all three systems did about the same job. The biggest difference was the sound, and that's more of a preference thing. The most impressive thing about SFII' on PCE was just the fact that it ran at all, and held up so well in comparison to not only the MD and SFC versions but also the arcade board, which itself wasn't even developed until the PCE was a year old.
Quote
so why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..
Nintendo forcing censorship on the SNES version of MK mainly achieved one thing; it sold a lot of Genesis systems. This, combined with Sonic and EA Sports, put the Genesis on equal footing with Nintendo sales-wise, which is pretty amazing, honestly. In Japan, where nobody gave a f*ck about EA or MK, the Genesis barely even existed, easily a distant fourth place in sales and in appeal.
A PCE exclusive on MK would have cost serious money for TTI. MK was on Genesis, SNES, GB, GG, and Sega CD. In order for TTI to have exclusivity they would have had to shell out millions of dollars for it...and for what? One game? MKII was already in the pipe, and there is no way TTI could afford to keep it exclusive forever. Eventually the TG-16's lock on the system would have relented, just as Sega's did when all subsequent versions of MK, even the Nintendo ones, were reverted back to full on interactive snuff porn. The same thing would have happened; the best version of MKII would have been the SNES one, and TTI wouldn't have had the money to translate the few remaining games that were released after that.
Seriously, the TG-16 was doomed. It couldn't succeed in the US unless it somehow became something it wasn't (ie: something with a lot of MK and sports shit on it) and personally I would have no appreciation of. I'm not saying NES and TTI couldn't have done a better job than they did, they sure could have, but they would always be third place.
Another thing: Nintendo having a lock on third parties...this was not a factor. Maybe Aklaim and Midway, but nobody decent. Was that shit even in effect anymore? I though it was mainly a US-only, NES-only thing. I confess to not having much knowledge about that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 10, 2011, 05:52:26 PM
I agree with this fellow, almost absolutely. The lack of tactile input, combined with input MASKING the damn display, which is giving you the information you are supposed to be reacting to, is really poor UI design. Then again, UI design is as much about what people want (or think they want) as it is about what works and is good for them. If you test a user interface convention and it materially saves people time and effort, but they don't like, you might as well scrap it unless you are in a position to make people use it, because if they don't like it they won't seek it out on their own.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 10, 2011, 09:41:13 PM
Another thing: Nintendo having a lock on third parties...this was not a factor. Maybe Aklaim and Midway, but nobody decent. Was that shit even in effect anymore? I though it was mainly a US-only, NES-only thing. I confess to not having much knowledge about that.
It was a US only thing for certain.
Nintendo imposed restrictions on how many titles third parties could produce, the turnaround time for games to be manufactured (since in the US Nintendo required all licensed games to be manufactured by Nintendo) and a had rules designed to prevent companies from publishing games on multiple systems. Example, Activision had a much harder time in the days of the NES getting carts produced in a timely fashion because Nintendo wanted to make an example of them for publishing games on the SMS and 7800. By 1992 Nintendo for anti-trust related reasons started to become more lax on these restrictions and a number of third parties started publishing for the Genesis. But by 1992 it was already too late for the Turbo in the US.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 11, 2011, 03:15:02 AM
I agree with Zeta, for the most part. By the time the big fighting game craze came around, and those games (SFII and MK) were being released on consoles, Sega and Nintendo had already pulled away from the Turbo. TTi was formed just as the Duo was released, and I remember at the time having the distinct impression that they were already on the way out, despite my love for the Duo and the games that were out at the time.
NEC, IMO, basically had to have done things better from the very beginning. TTi had a nice marketing scheme, but by then it was too little too late. If NEC had been as aggressive from the get-go, and done a better job of getting big-name third-party publishers on board right away, the fate of the Turbo might have been, at best, a cozy second place.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 11, 2011, 03:34:49 AM
Im glad we dont have MK on the Turbob. That game f*cking sucks.
The real problem is they brought over some stupid shit.
JJ and Jeff shouldn't have come since we lose the Kato and Ken of it all
We didn't get all the shooters we should've got
and no HuCard RPGs, at all.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 11, 2011, 03:42:17 AM
Yeah, I never wept over the lack of MK back in the day. I wanted that bad ass Street Fighter 2, though! I had to settle for my shitty copy of "Fighting Street".
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 11, 2011, 03:47:18 AM
Im glad we dont have MK on the Turbob. That game f*cking sucks.
If MK had been released as a Turbo exclusive, reviewers and critics would have started focusing more on how crappy the play mechanics were and how frames of animation were missing and how if the game had been on the Gen or SNES it would have been much better, but since those consoles had a better game in SF2 it was no big loss.
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We didn't get all the shooters we should've got
Shooters don't sell systems, unfortunately. I'm not sure I know of any shooters that were hot-selling titles.
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and no HuCard RPGs, at all.
I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 11, 2011, 04:10:32 AM
TTI should have just translated all the shooters and called it a day.
Wouldn't have done much good, as we got many of the best shooties anyway. If people won't buy a console to play Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Soldier Blade, and Blazing Lazers, they weren't going to hop on board for Nexzr and Spriggan.
If MK had been released as a Turbo exclusive, reviewers and critics would have started focusing more on how crappy the play mechanics were and how frames of animation were missing and how if the game had been on the Gen or SNES it would have been much better, but since those consoles had a better game in SF2 it was no big loss.
Even if the Turbo received a MK port along side the other versions and even if it was superior all-round, the press would have still wrote about how the graphics, sound and likely gameplay were worse and pointed out stupid little things about it.
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I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.
Although I don't think RPGs of any kind would have made much of a difference, by this rationale, NEC/TTi shouldn't have bothered releasing any Bonk games or really, most Turbo games.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 11, 2011, 08:02:04 AM
I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol
I guess America at large was just too f*cking stupid at the time.
That's what happened.
Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY. HUHHUHHHHH
and then parents were like OH MY GAWD TURBO? THATS DANGEROUS. MY KIDS SHOULDNT BE GOING FAST.
f*ck people.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 11, 2011, 08:20:13 AM
I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.
Although I don't think RPGs of any kind would have made much of a difference, by this rationale, NEC/TTi shouldn't have bothered releasing any Bonk games or really, most Turbo games.
No, I don't think any RPG releases would have changed much, but what I'm saying is, while the CD RPGs were sometimes competitive in audio and visuals, the HuCard RPGs appear to be overly simplistic, and would not have been able to compete on any level with the better RPG titles being released for the SNES and Genesis at that time. But CD RPGs wouldn't have helped much specifically because of the limited ownership base of CD units. Further, RPGs require a LOT more translation work.
No, I think many of the titles released by NEC and later TTI were, in fact, appropriate titles to release. The failure of the TG-16 in the US was as much that the games on the platform simply didn't hold as much appear to American gamers at the time as it was that NEC under-promoted the system. So many major developers weren't developing for the PCE despite how well it did in the Japanese market. Capcom snubbed it complete, choosing to license instead of develop directly. Capcom DID develop for the Genesis/Megadrive, even though the MD did miserably in Japan. Konami released some good titles on the PCE, but it could have done much more.
I'm not convinced the TG-16 was capable of doing well in the US. Does affect how much I love the system, but even if NEC had promoted it more, or if Nintendo hadn't engaged in anti-competitive practices, I'm still not sure the system would have found success.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 11, 2011, 08:45:22 AM
I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol
I guess America at large was just too f*cking stupid at the time.
That's what happened.
Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY. HUHHUHHHHH
Are you sure by America you don't mean Canada in that case?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 11, 2011, 08:50:07 AM
Necromancer competes well with Phantasy Star 2 and 3.
the other ones (Sindibad, Necross) certainly don't suck.
and these are all late 80s / early 90s (1990).
They hold up perfectly fine against genesis and snes rpgs from that time frame. It's not like FF4 is a frigging power house of marvelous wonder.
By the time the pretty shit was coming out on SNES, the CD library could have been launched in America in full force and bent the SNES and Genesis over the table and sent it in hard without lube.
Startling Odyssey 1 and 2, Anearth, CF3, the wizardry games, LOX 1 and 2...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 11, 2011, 08:50:58 AM
I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol
I guess America at large was just too f*cking stupid at the time.
That's what happened.
Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY. HUHHUHHHHH
Are you sure by America you don't mean Canada in that case?
lol everyone around here was apeshit for NHL hockey 93, and Joe Montana Football 94.
I myself, liked Sports Talk Baseball.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 11, 2011, 09:15:08 AM
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lol everyone around here was apeshit for NHL hockey 93, and Joe Montana Football 94.
I myself, liked Sports Talk Baseball.
Around here it was similar except everyone liked Arch Rivals for some reason or another and Bases Loaded. Oh yeah and Nba Jam and later the NFL Blitz games. Not too many rpg lovers until about Final Fantasy 6 release (3 in the U.S at the time), but even well before that I liked rpgs... Anyway, it would be interesting to see how well the turbo fared against other failed consoles around that time period here in the U.S...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 11, 2011, 09:19:21 AM
Quote from: Arkhan
and no HuCard RPGs, at all.
Quit lying! Final Lap Twin was one of the greatest RPGs of our time. I now await your public apology.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 11, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
I don't know about the RPG argument. I think people forget about a group of gamers that came from the AD&D era. Most of my friends and the like were way into RPG's on the consoles. I still remember us all thinking the Sega Master System was so much better than the Genesis because it had Phantasy Star on it! :lol: We ran through games like Shadowgate, Immortal, The Dragon Warrior Games. Zelda was HUGE. When I had my Turbo Grafx and nobody else did, we all went out looking for the Neutopia games and tried, very in Vain sadly, to find AD&D Order of the Phoenix. Also, many of the people I knew were talking about the Turbo Grafx CD system because of the Y's games and the Valis games. We all wanted the Sega CD system too after seeing Lunar the Silver Star and Shining Force CD.Those were the games that were popular here in Palmdale California. Most of the kids here thought that shooters were cool and the like but most of them liked playing those in Arcades. We thought that RPG's were cool because it was something unique to the consoles. Just a side look is all I am saying. RPG's may not have been the end all of the consoles at the time, but there were a large number of gamers that did play them and enjoy them.
Myself and a few others in my hometown were also huge RPG fans and I often saw the same people when buying second hand games through the local paper. But everyone else was playing platformers and the latest edition of NHL' .
There has always been a large number of RPG console fans, but they were always a tiny percentage of the market before FFVII. Even FFIII(VI) was supposed to have broken new ground for RPGs popularity wise, but it and Chrono Trigger and PSIV sold very poorly compared to real hits and were special cases when non-RPG fans would play them, but not hunt down other RPGs afterward.
If RPGs were popular enough before FFVII, we would have recieved Final Fantasy 2, 3 & 5, at least Dragon Warrior 5 & 6 and Capcom would have brought over Breath of Fire 1.
Yeah, it's just too bad that the audience didn't make their voices heard more. The thing with Final Fantasy VII as well was that it impressed Graphics Whores. Not that it's a bad game, but most people that played it I knew that were "Mainstream Gamers" loved to show off the movie at the beginning of the game and that was it. Very sad. Then we got into FF VIII and I wanted to throw up. The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 11, 2011, 01:01:04 PM
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The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.
Well except for Demise: Ascension (we can create a whole new topic on that one ^^) and maybe the new Dragon Quest games. But yeah, I tend to agree that its all about the eye candy, not so much about the game anymore. Interactive movies (Xenosaga anyone?) seem to be whats in now.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Keith Courage on November 11, 2011, 01:14:00 PM
I think the the turbo grafx would have done much better in the US if it had the big name games that the other systems had. If it were not for the licensing issues of third party companies only working with nintendo or sega then it would have been a different story. I know so many people who bought a snes or genesis just for Street Fighter II. No one knew they could buy it for the turbo since it was an import only. Not to mention no 6 button controller support in the US.
The other problem I think was that most people didn't see the game keith courage as this amazing new type of game. The US audience wanted more of the same(Super Mario Brothers) or at least an included two player game to get your friends in on the fun(Altered beast).
However, on the other hand one reason I like the turbografx/PC engine system is because it has all the odd games that no one has ever heard of. It's like I am tapping into this unforeseen gold mine of gaming fun.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 11, 2011, 01:35:31 PM
I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.
I don't know.
Games like Compile's Cyber Knight (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/2011/08/cyber-knight.html) are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 11, 2011, 02:32:15 PM
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I don't know.
Games like Compile's Cyber Knight are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.
Ohh, never seen that game before, why haven't the rom hacker translated it yet?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 11, 2011, 03:35:12 PM
I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.
I don't know.
Games like Compile's Cyber Knight (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/2011/08/cyber-knight.html) are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.
Except that, no matter how much die-hard RPG fans insist RPGs are all about the story, it's really about the graphics and music. The FF series started that trend, but it wasn't until FFIV on the SNES that it was really on. FFVII was just when it became more than a little blatantly obvious.
The PCE could compete at least musically with the SuperCD attachment, but the CD unit was expensive enough it would never have truly been competitive in the US. The SNES and Genesis were good enough for a lot less money.
They hold up perfectly fine against genesis and snes rpgs from that time frame. It's not like FF4 is a frigging power house of marvelous wonder.
By the time the pretty shit was coming out on SNES, the CD library could have been launched in America in full force and bent the SNES and Genesis over the table and sent it in hard without lube.
FFIV was definitely better than most of what had come before, if only a little on the graphical front, certainly on the music front, especially for a cartridge-based game. And again, the CD-ROM unit was too expensive to ever really have a chance at the mainstream in the US. For the amount of money you had to lay out to get a Duo or a Turbo and CD unit, it wasn't better enough. Well, it was better enough for me, but not for most folks. .
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 11, 2011, 03:36:36 PM
As much as we all love RPGs, they also wouldn't have done shit for NEC in the US. RPGs mostly just lost money in that era.
There was a reason why DQV and VI never came out in English for the SNES, and FFVII was published by Sony. Enix and Square both left the US during the 16-bit time period.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: T2KFreeker on November 11, 2011, 04:26:08 PM
The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.
Well except for Demise: Ascension (we can create a whole new topic on that one ^^) and maybe the new Dragon Quest games. But yeah, I tend to agree that its all about the eye candy, not so much about the game anymore. Interactive movies (Xenosaga anyone?) seem to be whats in now.
Ueah, and everyone bitched about FMV games in the 90's!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 12, 2011, 03:31:58 AM
The HuCards can compete graphically, no problem. Necromancer and Cyberknight are both on par with Phantasy Star. A HuCard game could do what FFIV was doing. By the time FFV and VI were out, the CD ROM would have pounded its face in.
I don't buy the "it's too expensive" thing for the CD-drive if you're going for RPGs.
If the Turbo CD had half the RPGs we never got, I am 100% certain all the RPG spazzes that dropped 75$ on Chrono Trigger would have bought a Turbo CD when they saw games like LOX, Startling Odyssey, Anearth Fantasy Stories, Emerald Dragon, and the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy games. If the Wizardry games launched here on the Turbo CD, I could safely say that at least half the people I know from gaming conventions would have stabbed someone to buy a Turbo CD and play them. These are the kind of people that beat Pool of Radiance with characters that have straight 10s for stats and have no magic spells, just to see if they can manage it.
I also don't buy it that RPGs just weren't doing it well here thing. Tons of magazines had sections dedicated to RPGs, and people were basically foaming at the mouth for RPGs. Even Nintendo Power did spreads on RPGs. They covered Legacy of the Wizard and Ultima III at one point. AKA: "This is too hard what do I do" and "This is really hard I don't like it!" to the majority of the sissies that play it.
If they had just brought over Necromancer early on. Just that ONE single game, I bet it would have helped sway the Dragon Warrior NES fans into giving it a better shot. Necromancer is an amazing game. Cyberknight would have swayed the Phantasy Star people into trying it, Sindibad is a bit ho-hum but as good as Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 (maybe 3, kinda).
So, they should have given it a shot. It's better than 0 hucard rpgs except for racing and tennis quests, lol.
and f*ckin Outlive, that games just awesome. I can't think of anyone that wouldn't think so.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 12, 2011, 03:56:26 AM
The HuCards can compete graphically, no problem. Necromancer and Cyberknight are both on par with Phantasy Star. A HuCard game could do what FFIV was doing. By the time FFV and VI were out, the CD ROM would have pounded its face in.
I don't buy the "it's too expensive" thing for the CD-drive if you're going for RPGs.
It was too expensive for most of the people buying video games back then, since they were buying them for children. In the 16-bit era the perception in North America was that video games were a toy for kids.
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If the Turbo CD had half the RPGs we never got, I am 100% certain all the RPG spazzes that dropped 75$ on Chrono Trigger would have bought a Turbo CD when they saw games like LOX, Startling Odyssey, Anearth Fantasy Stories, Emerald Dragon, and the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy games. If the Wizardry games launched here on the Turbo CD, I could safely say that at least half the people I know from gaming conventions would have stabbed someone to buy a Turbo CD and play them. These are the kind of people that beat Pool of Radiance with characters that have straight 10s for stats and have no magic spells, just to see if they can manage it.
I'm sure the people who were hardcore into RPGs would have been more likely to buy it, but with less than 70,000 Turbo CD and Duos sold in the US even doubling those sales would have only been a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers of units Nintendo and Sega were moving. In the US, Chrono Trigger didn't sell that well on Super NES. I remember seeing copies on clearance around 1997 for 19.99. Earthbound didn't sell well either, neither did the Final Fantasy games. The people who go to gaming conventions are the minority of the audience you are trying to sell to. We hardcore gamers should not be used as a measuring stick of what other people will buy.
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I also don't buy it that RPGs just weren't doing it well here thing. Tons of magazines had sections dedicated to RPGs, and people were basically foaming at the mouth for RPGs. Even Nintendo Power did spreads on RPGs. They covered Legacy of the Wizard and Ultima III at one point. AKA: "This is too hard what do I do" and "This is really hard I don't like it!" to the majority of the sissies that play it.
The people buying GameFan were the hardcore players, make no mistake about it. Nintendo Power had spreads on RPGs in part because it's easier to produce lengthy amounts of contents from RPGs than other genres like platformers since there's just more to cover.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 12, 2011, 04:34:18 AM
Toy for kids? Maybe Cleveland was an anomaly then, because growing up, my adult family members were all playing SNES and NES.
This includes my grandfather, who will f*ck you up in Dr. Mario and make you cry.
I'm fairly certain if we had a fist full of HuCard RPGs, at least one 2.5D beat em up, and a run and gun that wasn't Bloody Wolf, things would have been different.
Way different.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 12, 2011, 05:14:46 AM
If Final Fantasy couldn't keep Square in business, and Dragon Warrior couldn't keep Enix in business, how would RPGs for the TG16 do well for NEC?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 12, 2011, 05:41:42 AM
No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 12, 2011, 01:12:57 PM
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No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.
Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_(video_game)) Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs. Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis. So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nectarsis on November 12, 2011, 01:27:50 PM
No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.
Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_(video_game)) Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs. Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis. So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.
Go back and read again ;) Capcom DID NOT bring it over...Square did :P
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 12, 2011, 04:27:19 PM
Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day.
You played BoF, but you played it as released by Square, a company already comfortable with RPGs. Capcom wasn't willing to commit to releasing it themselves because the RPG market was not mature enough in their eyes.
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Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis. So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.
Do you recall how well the Sega CD sold? And it had several decent RPGs thanks to Working Designs. Here's a hint: not well at all. The TurboGrafx-16 was also expensive when first released, $199 IIRC. By the time the Duo was released in the US the $299 selling point was no consolation. The system was already on life-support and the SNES and Genesis were priced lower and had large libraries of high-profile games with good advertising that appealed to a large audience. TTI was not, in any way, going to be able to compete with that.
No, I'm pretty convinced there was no magic bullet for the TG16. I don't want to say it was destined for failure in the US market, but there were a number of strikes against it right from the start. I think NEC could have handled the situation better, but the market failure of the TG wasn't due solely to their mishandling, and, in retrospect, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and suggest they didn't do as badly as we tend to claim they did. Sega prepared carefully for their US launch, making sure they had their ducks in a row. Sega America was VERY effective right out the gate. Nintendo came in knowing Sega would challenge them in a way they hadn't in Japan, so they also came prepared for a fight. NEC basically was between a rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 12, 2011, 08:43:24 PM
No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.
Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_(video_game)) Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs. Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis. So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.
Go back and read again ;) Capcom DID NOT bring it over...Square did :P
Oh man, I just went and looked at the cartridge. That's funny. I guess I never really paid that much attention to who put it out. BOF3 is the only one thats important.
Anyway,
Dragon Warrior kept Enix in business. Everyone and their mother knows what Dragon Quest is in Japan. Maybe it didn't catch on right here... but what else is new. Nothing good catches on in USA.
Theres lots of "that wouldnt have helped" going on here. What the f*ck would've helped then?
Shitty western games (mortal kombat), a few more decent western games, a beat em up, and 2 player support built in?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: ccovell on November 12, 2011, 09:08:28 PM
Basically, 1990 was the best year ever for the Turbo, and 1991 the complete opposite. NEC kinda demonstrated going in to 1991 that they were relying a lot that year on US-made softs, perhaps as a new strategy, perhaps as an admission of desperation... Anyway, NEC finished the year not just 3rd but a distant 4th.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 12, 2011, 09:25:34 PM
Obviously DQ made truckloads of money for Enix, but not in the US, the country where the TG-16 was released, which is what we are talking about. They left the US...I think after Ogre Battle was released.
As for what WOULD have worked, I really thing the answer is "nothing". Sometimes things are just doomed. It might have succeeded if it were basically a completely different machine with totally different software, but then that really wouldn't be the "TG-16" as we know it.
A similar situation: the original XBox in Japan. That system failed SO HARD in Japan that it was being outsold by systems that had already been out of production like the Gameboy Color and Dreamcast. When the PS2 was selling 50,000 units a week the XB was selling, literally, 8 units. What could have saved it? Maybe 100 or so "killer apps". As it was the thing was a giant loud black American box with almost zero Japanese games on it. It was f*cked from day one.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: sheath on November 13, 2011, 01:27:42 AM
I agree, as early as 1990 I saw Game Players, EGM and Gamepro labeling the TG16 library as "quirky" and Japanese. Short of getting some killer western studios to make a steady stream of western games, and more sports games, the TG16 was going to be labeled "niche" no matter what. Really though, if by 1991 NEC could have started releasing more of the NES adaptations, or better yet, reprogrammed same year NES games and released them quickly, I think a $99 TG16 might have given the NES a run for its money. I for one would have killed for 16-bitafied NES games, and 1990-92 were some of the NES' best years.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 22, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
On this rarest of occasions I'm with Zeta. I'm not sure there was a path to success for the TG-16 in the US. The system itself, the core hardware, could have been successful, but only in a hypothetical sense. So many things would need to have been done differently, in the Japanese game market as well, to make that hardware a success here in the US that I'm not sure it's worth discussing how things could have been fixed.
We should appreciate what we got and support those in our community who are developing new games and translating old. Regardless of how things went down, it is indeed our system, and for better or worse this system appealed to us and was, intentionally or not, marketed to us.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Edmond Dantes on November 22, 2011, 06:56:22 PM
We should appreciate what we got and support those in our community who are developing new games and translating old. Regardless of how things went down, it is indeed our system, and for better or worse this system appealed to us and was, intentionally or not, marketed to us.
Amen.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2011, 12:38:36 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't give two dicks about any Western made games from that era really?
You don't see me beating off to Wizards and Warriors and NES or Solar Crapman.
What would have helped was a less-corny marketing campaign, a real street fighter, and tits. Lots of them.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 25, 2011, 06:22:24 AM
Found this reprint of an old EGM article addressing "TurboGrafx-16 vs. Genesis". Agree or disagree with the content, it does a good job of illustrating what the mindset was at the time. One thing I found interesting was that they said if the PC Engine was included in the comparison, it would win hands-down over the Turbo and Genesis because of its amazing and diverse library. The conclusion seemed to be that if NEC was able to capitalize on that library and bring a good bulk of those games, it would have a great chance. However, because of the NES and their third-party licensee agreements, that would be difficult to do.
Anyway, here's the article: http://classicgaming.gamespy.com/View.php?view=ConsoleMuseum.Detail&id=34
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 25, 2011, 09:52:24 AM
NES wasn't stopping brilliant games like Necromancer, Marchen Maze and Legend of Valkyrie from coming over.
Completely stupidity on the other hand......
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Mathius on November 25, 2011, 10:24:57 AM
Wish there was a scan of that 1998 issue of EGM of the top 100 games. Then again, no one liked how they put tetris and Super Metroid in the top ten...
Not sure why anyone wouldn't like Super Metroid being on a top ten list. ...Best game ever IMO. :)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Edmond Dantes on November 26, 2011, 12:06:59 AM
Oh goodness, I used to have that issue of EGM. Was that the one where Tetris was named #1 best game of all time?
It was also the article that introduced me to Gate of Thunder and Military Madness. At the time I was mad that Romance of the Three Kingdoms didn't even rank, but I've since learned the error of my ways.
and Arkhan, I'm normally not a big fan of western developers either, but I think the point is that having more third party developers on both sides of the ocean would've given the Turbo a big boost. And, well, anyone who has played Risk can't argue with that :P Isn't Beyond Shadowgate considered one of the TG16's killer apps? And Loom is considered a very good game on the TG16... and that's a port of a computer game. Imagine if the Turbo had ports of Sierra's Space Quest series! In fact, someone please rewrite history and make that happen, because the idea is just too awesome to let die.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 26, 2011, 02:27:23 AM
the good western games would have helped, sure, but bringing over the plethora of already existing games that kicked ass and never came would have been helpful too.
we got Shadow of the Beast, and most people think that games dumb.
I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here. They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here. and a D&D game.
There were some other good western PC games that could have arrived, but oh well.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 26, 2011, 05:05:29 AM
It's true. In the age of Call of Duty, GTA, etc, people forget that in 1990 there were nearly zero western games that anyone gave two shits about. I can't imagine any American TG16 even being a best seller, let alone saving the system.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 26, 2011, 05:12:00 AM
I think the Nintendo licensee thing had the most effect on games like Double Dragon, Ninja Gaiden etc. Those games were f*ckin' HUGE back then. PC Engine had 'em, TurboGrafx didn't.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 26, 2011, 05:15:43 AM
Quote
I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here. They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here. and a D&D game.
Started playing Wizardry on the Turbo now have we? ^^ I got some weird looks from my pals when I included Skyrim music into Wizardry 3 ^^ Speaking of which, wonder how hard it would have been to port over Pools of Radiance, Dragon Lance and Azure Bonds? Could have been very interesting...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 26, 2011, 05:35:38 AM
I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here. They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here. and a D&D game.
Started playing Wizardry on the Turbo now have we? ^^ I got some weird looks from my pals when I included Skyrim music into Wizardry 3 ^^ Speaking of which, wonder how hard it would have been to port over Pools of Radiance, Dragon Lance and Azure Bonds? Could have been very interesting...
Yeah I fired them up seeing as I have them but never played them. I pummeled them on NES/DOS when I was younger. I don't really get why they never came to the Turbo. Even today though, SirTech is gone, and gave the rights to Japan and we didn't even get a real copy of the newest Wizardry. its DLC only.
Skyrim blows. I don't get whats so great. Gimme daggerfall or gimme death.
It would have been f*ck-all easy to port any of the goldbox games back then. NES had Pool of radiance. ANy of those games would have been doable.. Why didn't they? Stupidity.
OotG was a very nicely done game, but lacked the Goldbox effect as much as it should have.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 26, 2011, 09:49:45 AM
Quote from: author="Zeta"
I can't imagine any American TG16 even being a best seller, let alone saving the system.
Well, since Call of Duty is American, they could have just put that on the TurboGrafx-16. Same with Skyrim. We may not have liked those games but they would have saved the console, especially if they were exclusive. Both games sold more units than there are physical TurboGrafx-16's in existence. They would have had to make more systems because of the high demand. You know what else would have helped the system? Another Might and Magic game because those games are so intense and full of fun. It would have been especially great if they required you to roll dice in real life as part of the game playing experience.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 26, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
I'm not sure what kind of bullshit stab that comment is towards CRPGs really?... I mean the next game would have been Clouds of Xeen, and that game is one of the high points of 90s RPGs.
Have you actually played any of them? The first M&M released on PCE CD is an interesting rehash of the first game that gives it a lot of character. Then Isles of Terra is a perfect port of the game. There is plenty of intense parts of these games.
Creeping down corridors, making sure you're ready for traps, or monsters ahead... flinging missile weapons and spells before they close in, followed by bashing their f*cking faces in.
They're real adventure games. None of this broke ass Skyrim crap where giants beat dragons to death, you can put pots on peoples heads and steal everything, and you can ramp a horse up a mountain.
Oh and you can 3 hit a bear with your fists where it takes 5-8 slashes with your sword.
American games blow, and so do American gamers, to be honest.
Look at Wizardry now. Labyrinth of Lost Souls wasn't even released on physical media in the states because they knew it would hardly sell because everyone these days is a dipshit pussy that can't do anything but complain and then try to get all the achievements in their hamster trail adventure games.
I don't need a gamer score and achievements to tell me or others that I know how to play a game.
All I need is a few rounds of me beating them senseless with Dhalsim, a few plays of Lords of Thunder, and some crazed runs in games like Contra, Jackal, Joust, Aldynes, and Gunbird to tell people I'm not some friggin retard gamer.
I love getting on XBL at my friends with my account that has like, 30 points on it. I go on SFIV and beat peoples dicks in and laugh at them all.
Americans are too fixated on having high profile rankings/scores, and bragging rights in shitty games. Half these pole smokers can't even beat the first level of China Warrior before they run to youtube and go OMG THE WORST GAME EVAR BECAUSE LOOK AT IT ITS LIKE OH MY GOD CHINA AND OH MY GOD ITS SO BAD THE GRAPHICS SUCK, THERES BETTER GRAPHICS IN GEARS OF WAR, AND LOOK AT THIS GUY HE KICKS LIKE HES GOT A BROKEN LEG, AND THE MONKS LOOK LIKE DARTH MAUL'S GAY BROTHER.
and crap.
f*ck em.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 26, 2011, 03:59:01 PM
You know, we can probably start a whole new thread of games that should have been ported to the turbo.
Quote
All I need is a few rounds of me beating them senseless with Dhalsim, a few plays of Lords of Thunder, and some crazed runs in games like Contra, Jackal, Joust, Aldynes, and Gunbird to tell people I'm not some friggin retard gamer.
You forgot to mention Demise *Ascension just came out this year btw* in there too. ^^ At any rate, more crpgs ported onto the turbo would have been nice and I think we all agree if they got the same treatment as the japanese did to the Wizardry games and Might and Magic, things could have turned out differently. Makes one wonder how hard it truly was to port what we got already...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 26, 2011, 04:06:42 PM
Quote from: Ark
Americans are too fixated on having high profile rankings/scores, and bragging rights in shitty games.
That must be why the Japanese started putting high scores in games like Space Invaders, then. Oh, wait... only SHITTY GAMES have high score tables and people fixated with getting the high score. My bad. And yes, Might and Magic bores me to tears. It's a piece of shit. It wouldn't help sell ANY videogame console. You know why? Because anybody who cared for Western shit back then bought them on the crusty computers of the time.
Are you saying that if people took the time to beat level 1 of China Warrior, they'd like it? Is everyone supposed to have your exact taste in gaming? That sure would be uninteresting.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 26, 2011, 06:08:18 PM
That must be why the Japanese started putting high scores in games like Space Invaders, then. Oh, wait... only SHITTY GAMES have high score tables and people fixated with getting the high score.
There is a huge gaping difference between a high score table in an arcade game, and some dumbass profile/points system in games where the points you acquire are based off doing stupid shit like "OPEN 385 DOORS WITHOUT WALKING RIGHT" and "COLLECT 300 BRONZE PIPES" or something stupid.
You're confusing "high score" with "high profile score". lrn2slash.
High profile score AKA Gamerscore is completely unrelated to any score in a game and is some modern way for hipster douchebags to think they're good at video games. It's really just the numerical representation of how much time you waste doing retarded shit in a game rather than playing something else since you're done with that game. There are people who grind out for 20+ hours in an RPG AFTER beating the game, just so they can get some achievement for getting everyone to level 99. The only purpose it serves is to artificially extend the length of the game. 60 hours of gameplay! ...But only 30 of it is the real game. the other 30 is how long it takes for you to get all the ACHIVEMENTS!1123. And then you get m4x g43m3rsc0r3z and a 5 star ranked profile and join the OMG UNDERGROUND with all the other people who would probably be pressing the continue button before the end of the first base in Contra.
Quote
My bad. And yes, Might and Magic bores me to tears. It's a piece of shit. It wouldn't help sell ANY videogame console. You know why? Because anybody who cared for Western shit back then bought them on the crusty computers of the time.
Declaring M&M a piece of shit is a pretty bold statement. What makes it a piece of shit? Which ones have you played, and did you even make it past the character generator? Do you even like RPGs?
And, really? Crusty computers? You mean the PC/Amiga, which were around at the same time as the TG and Genesis, and completely smoked it in terms of power and capabilities?
Quote
Are you saying that if people took the time to beat level 1 of China Warrior, they'd like it? Is everyone supposed to have your exact taste in gaming? That sure would be uninteresting.
No, I'm saying your typical "hardcore gamer" today is some FPS pudwacker that has no appreciation for games that came out before Quake 2, and will make all kinds of superficial remarks towards the game instead of enjoying it for what it is. Not that they probably have the ability to play any old games properly because there is no mouse/keyboard, or dual thumb-stick controller setup for the TG or any other 8/16bit console.
I have the unfortunate displeasure of being surrounded by gamers at school, and from mutual friends. Most of these modern gamers in the 20-30 age bracket are all dumbasses. The worst ones are the ones that are going to school for "video game design" or are "making a game" because they're doing some 3D models in a class.
Making 3D models for homework != developing a game. Try explaining this to some herpderp Apple user. It's like trying to teach a 4 year old different equations. It's hilarious when someone who can't program says they are developing a game, when they have 0 intention of writing code.
then they start talking about companies' design/business model philosophies and go on and on about how great Steam is because they went on a tour and ate up all their hipster bullshit.
"All the developers we're in cool t shirts, and had on jeans! There was food in the breakroom! Everyone was happy!"
yes, because steam is the ONLY place where people are happy to be making games, and have no dresscode. Totally groundbreaking. f*ck off. (Not you, the idiot that said it)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 26, 2011, 09:01:35 PM
I'm not even going to bother to read your entire post because it seems you are too emotional about this. Calm. the. hell. down. They're only videogames.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 27, 2011, 02:30:03 AM
Joe, Master of Opinionated Sarcasm, strikes fear and anger in the hearts of the weak.
I think the western RPGs of the time were doing just fine on PC, which is where I preferred to play them. Not sure I would have wanted to tackle Might and Magic or Wizardry on the PC Engine.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 04:31:39 AM
I'm not even going to bother to read your entire post because it seems you are too emotional about this. Calm. the. hell. down. They're only videogames.
Sometimes I wonder if you read entire posts anyways because you misread/interpret things in a hurry to hit the sarcasm button, and then go off on an incorrect tangent, much like your last post.
and they're not only video games. Don't be stupid.
Quote from: Spenoza
I think the western RPGs of the time were doing just fine on PC, which is where I preferred to play them. Not sure I would have wanted to tackle Might and Magic or Wizardry on the PC Engine.
I prefer Wizardry on NES to PC actually. The Wizardry games translate well to a controller/menus. Ultima, not as much. 3 and 4 did ok, but 5, 6 and 7 were a clusterf*ck.
Might and Magic for NES turned out pretty good too. Give em a whirl. I never tried Wizardry for PCE until recently and was happy with how they turned out. Heart of the Maelstrom is way better there than on SNES.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 27, 2011, 04:56:45 AM
Quote
I never tried Wizardry for PCE until recently and was happy with how they turned out. Heart of the Maelstrom is way better there than on SNES.
I totally agree, but as I have stated before, these Wizardry games on the PCE there really isn't much text to translate from Japanese to English, it should really be a easy project to start up compared to having to translate an entire rpg ie Cosmic Fantasy or the like. While we are on ports, it amazes me that we saw Loom on the Turbo CD, but never saw Monkey Island or Space Quest. What gives? Or even Sim City and Civilization? I wonder at the time the Turbo was around how many people actually had a PC vs having consoles...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 05:22:21 AM
lots of people here had PC's. Like every other house had at least a 386.
Consoles were better for games though, they still are.
Except for RPGs. DOS RPGs are tits
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nat on November 27, 2011, 07:08:01 AM
Not sure I would have wanted to tackle Might and Magic [...] on the PC Engine.
I did. It was a grand experience. I haven't tried III yet, but they did a great job with the first one.
3 is a pretty much perfect port of the DOS game. its good stuff
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 27, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
Quote
3 is a pretty much perfect port of the DOS game. its good stuff
Yeah I did enjoy that one immensely. So my next question is this, how difficult is to port a old dos/windows game onto the turbo/pce? Or even better yet, create a port of dosbox onto the machine?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 08:36:22 AM
DOSbox is not happening. The system doesn't have the resources necessary, really.
Recreating many of these games though, totally feasible. Look at M&M 3 as proof of that. Any game could be ported quite easily. Emulating is another story.
I joke about Ultima ][ for PCE alot. I may do it one day.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 27, 2011, 09:27:25 AM
Quote from: Arkhan
and they're not only video games. Don't be stupid.
You need to get a life. Seriously. If videogames engulf your entire life, that is just sad and I feel nothing but pity for you. No need to get so emotional over something silly like videogames. And you are VERY emotional over this.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 11:15:47 AM
You need to get a life. Seriously. If videogames engulf your entire life, that is just sad and I feel nothing but pity for you. No need to get so emotional over something silly like videogames. And you are VERY emotional over this.
I make games, I play games, I collect games.
This includes tabletop games.
welcome to a very detailed/extensive hobby. I can be emotional about it if I want, f*ck you very much.
:)
They don't engulf my entire life. You just choose to think they do.
and who are you to tell people "get a life", really?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 27, 2011, 12:39:49 PM
Gentlemen, can we please get back to the topic at hand? Arkhan, what would be involved in porting over some old dos games? Would HUC (pardon my newbieness on the subject) be enough to start? Or do we have to learn some crazy 8/16-bit ASM language to even attempt this?
Quote
I joke about Ultima ][ for PCE alot. I may do it one day.
You probably already know this: http://xu4.sourceforge.net/ Not exactly Ultima 2, but something to think about..
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
I know all about XU4. :)
HuC could handle porting many old ass DOS games.
Adventure games of the early 80s could be done in HuC no problem. The problem comes when you need fast-paced games. Slow games will do fine in HuC.
Any of the Ultima games, Questron, Eternal Dagger, the GoldBox games. Could be done with HuC.
stuff like Wing Commander, Commander Keen, shit like that.. probably needs asm to get far.
Ultima ][ is a game dying for a rebirth. It had one of the better stories from the series. Minax comes and f*cks with Earth to get her revenge. Totally hardcore.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nat on November 27, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
I'd kill to see Commander Keen 5, 6, or Keen Dreams (with music!) done up properly on the Turbo. I'm probably the only one, though.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Mathius on November 27, 2011, 02:21:35 PM
I'd kill to see Commander Keen 5, 6, or Keen Dreams (with music!) done up properly on the Turbo. I'm probably the only one, though.
Nope :)
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 27, 2011, 02:35:40 PM
I second the Commander Keen games. Hmm, I guess I better get back to using HuC again, didn't have much luck last time I played with it. About the furthest I got was a lame scrolling demo and thats about it. Its too bad that there isn't a qbasic (or any other basic) compiler that compiles programs so you can use em on your turbo...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 02:45:22 PM
I second the Commander Keen games. Hmm, I guess I better get back to using HuC again, didn't have much luck last time I played with it. About the furthest I got was a lame scrolling demo and thats about it. Its too bad that there isn't a qbasic (or any other basic) compiler that compiles programs so you can use em on your turbo...
There is. It's called DEVELO, and there was a BASIC version and a Assembly version.
The BASIC version has limited power, obviously.
You could probably make Commander Keen in HuC, dude! Get to it! We need more developers. Don't be shy or afraid that you won't get far. When I showed up I had no clue what the f*ck I was doing!
and you can hit up Aetherbyte's forum for questions... or find us on IRC too. We're mostly active in #pcedev on both efnet and rizon.
feel free to PM me for moar infos.
and, lol Keen Dreams. EAT YOUR VEGETABLES!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 27, 2011, 03:09:16 PM
Quote from: Arkhan
and who are you to tell people "get a life", really?
You seem to want to argue. I don't. I also don't like Might and Magic. I honestly do find them boring. That doesn't mean that YOU have to change your opinion about it and nor do I. Deal with it like a man.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 27, 2011, 03:35:32 PM
I don't really think everything Arkhan says should be taken so seriously. I don't think he really intends it to be. He's both young and a programmer, so his life experiences are going to be pretty...scant. He'll get better.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 27, 2011, 03:38:26 PM
You seem to want to argue. I don't. I also don't like Might and Magic. I honestly do find them boring. That doesn't mean that YOU have to change your opinion about it and nor do I. Deal with it like a man.
"get a life" has nothing to do with M&M.
I don't call this arguing. This is really just me seeing how far you care to take your bold claims/sarcastic insults. Apparently, you don't want to go too far with them.
Telling a game programmer/player/collector to "get a life" when you're the moderator on the forum is pretty goddamn stupid anyways for numerous reasons.
I don't really think everything Arkhan says should be taken so seriously. I don't think he really intends it to be. He's both young and a programmer, so his life experiences are going to be pretty...scant. He'll get better.
uhhhh...What does that have to do with realizing that most modern day gamers are complete dumbf*cks? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. None of this has to do with life experiences. It also doesn't take a life-hardened old f*cker to figure it out either. People are fixated on profiles/status more than game skills. People are also fixated more on graphics and frilly shit. Welcome to 2011 gaming. The majority is stupid. I think most people here would tend to agree. Does that mean they're all clueless about life too?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: nat on November 27, 2011, 03:43:57 PM
They ended up using that track in Keen 4 in a few of the levels.
yeah in the underwater level.
Commander Keen needs to come back.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SNKNostalgia on November 27, 2011, 04:05:38 PM
Funny, I just saw this thread today and read through it.
Anyways, I can give some perspective of really legitimate reasons to why the TG-16 didn't fair well overall. I remember this time in my childhood vividly, due to my borderline OCD and great long term memory. :-" This is just how I and many others roughly saw things back then.
1. Third party support: No games from Konami, Capcom, Tecmo, Technos, and other third parties at that level. This of course was due to Nintendo being a greedy bitch and not letting third party companies make games for other consoles without penalty. Sega did OK starting out due to a few top arcade titles, a real 16-bit feel to it and then Sonic giving them the great boost in sales.
2. Marketing: There were no major system sellers for what most people perceived to be awesome games on it. Don't get me wrong, there are some great games that we here enjoy the hell out of. This is not the case in the eyes of your average kid used to playing major NES titles like Super Mario Bros, Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and so on in the early years. Then later on games like Actraiser, Zelda 3, Sonic, Streets of Rage, major arcade ports, etc.... This really boils down to appealing image of games, solid fun gameplay, character design and other marketing methods.
In the US, there just wasn't all too many titles that struck even my interest when the TG-16 first came out and when I owned one in 1991. I didn't even know what games were the ones to really get due to me being the only one owning one in my area, no commercials and no store demos. I remember really wanting Bloody Wolf, Ys 1+2, and later on Lords of Thunder. I just saw some of these games on shelves at EB Games, in Gamepro mags and a few flyers really. Compared to SNES and Genesis games though... I will be honest, my interest in TG-16 games didn't measure up. Remember, this is all back when I was like 9-12 years old and had friends that owned and showed me the other 16-bit consoles.
3. It isn't 16-bit like, it is, it isn't, but it is...: When it first came out, it seemed like a more powerful NES than it did an arcade like 16-bit console. It wasn't until later that it really matched the quality of the SNES and Genesis roughly '91-92. It took the CD-rom and Super CD-rom to finally achieve the same level and a few HuCards (Cadash, Air Zonk, Magical Chase are great examples).
I swear, if the Turbo Duo just stuck it out for another two years... we would have seen some really good titles in the US. Other game companies finally got the green light to develop games for it. We might have gotten some great CD titles like Gradius 2, Dracula X, Double Dragon 2, and so on. It still wouldn't have matched up commercially to the SNES and Genesis, but at least we would have gotten a lot more out of it.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 27, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
Quote from: Zeta
I don't really think everything Arkhan says should be taken so seriously.
He seems to disagree with that assessment.
Quote from: Arkhan
Telling a game programmer/player/collector to "get a life" when you're the moderator on the forum is pretty goddamn stupid anyways for numerous reasons.
Please, enlighten me. You're the one having the spaz attack, telling me to f*ck off and the such. There's no rule anywhere that says mods have to cater to everyone's precious feelings. But if you have a problem with me, do what I tell everyone else to do. Go to Aaron. Complaining to me will do no good. Only Keranu gives less of a shit about moderating these particular forums than I do.
Anyway, while you may not like the state of gaming these days, that does not mean the people who do are stupid. There is nothing wrong with achievements, trophies, etc. The thing that sucks are the idiots who are achievement/trophy whores and borrow/rent games just for the sake of getting some trophies or whatnot in a vein effort for e-respect. Believe it or not, idiots like this also existed in the 8/16-bit era. They're the ones who sent in their high scores to anyone who would accept them. There were no shortages of idiots then and plenty of idiots still like that generation of systems now. The bottom line is that people are idiots in general, modern/retro/whathaveyou gaming does not make them idiots. It's perfectly fine not to like modern gaming, but expressing your opinion in such a whiny way really makes you sound a bit "get off my lawn"-ish, if you now what I mean. But there's nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a trophy or a high score. We have a high-score thread or two here, don't we? High scores and achievements say the exact same thing; "Look how good I am at this game". Big deal. Life goes on.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 27, 2011, 05:22:16 PM
You know, I did find this while searching the web: http://clonekeen.sourceforge.net/ If I'm going to do this, probably going to start out with the open sourced projects first. Eventually, I want to port over Dominus, but that may be too late into the Dos game era (1994) and finding the source or even cracking the source is going to be hard enough. First off, time to dust off my old C books and go from there. If I recall correctly, HuC is based off vanilla C, not C++ unless things have changed. Probably should start another topic on this too, this thread is getting all hi-jacked. Thanks Arkhan, going to attempt this seriously now.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 12:45:08 AM
Please, enlighten me. You're the one having the spaz attack, telling me to f*ck off and the such. There's no rule anywhere that says mods have to cater to everyone's precious feelings.
Spaz attack? lol. no not really. It's not a spaz attack until I start photoshopping your face into compromising images. This is just how I talk. You should know this by now.
As for enlightenment, it's assumed if you're moderating a forum, you at least have some semblance of respect for the people involved and aren't going to be like hurrrrrr you like games too much, get a life hurhrrrrr.
Quote
Only Keranu gives less of a shit about moderating these particular forums than I do.
Well that's good to know. So is Nat the only one who gives a shit? Why are you a moderator if you don't care? Don't want to get rid of your magical powers?
Quote
Anyway, while you may not like the state of gaming these days, that does not mean the people who do are stupid. There is nothing wrong with achievements, trophies, etc.
When trophies are used to artificially extend the playtime of a game, there is something wrong. Did you know there were so many people complaining about a lack of trophies on the PS3 that Sony had to put the crap in? People were buying Xbox 360 over PS3 when they owned both systems, just for achievements.
Quote
The thing that sucks are the idiots who are achievement/trophy whores and borrow/rent games just for the sake of getting some trophies or whatnot in a vein effort for e-respect.
They're all idiots. 9/10 gamers these days are this ^^^
Quote
Believe it or not, idiots like this also existed in the 8/16-bit era. They're the ones who sent in their high scores to anyone who would accept them. There were no shortages of idiots then and plenty of idiots still like that generation of systems now.
The difference being, there was no dumbassed online-system-specific rating system used to categorize how people play a game. You had to earn your rep the real way, not by dicking off in games doing piddly things a 10 year old can do. Also, the high score fanatics of the 8/16 bit era actually had talent. Achievement whores don't really have talent/skill.
Quote
but expressing your opinion in such a whiny way really makes you sound a bit "get off my lawn"-ish, if you now what I mean.
It only sounds whiny if you've never heard me go off about this crap in person. It's more angry than whiney. But, I am sure you'll continue to believe it's whiney since that makes you feel better.
Quote
But there's nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a trophy or a high score. We have a high-score thread or two here, don't we? High scores and achievements say the exact same thing; "Look how good I am at this game". Big deal. Life goes on.
-_-;;;;;;;;;;
You haven't made the connection yet, even though I explained it:
GAMER SCORE is not a high score in a game. It's the collective point total of all your lame ass achievments. Most people with high gamer scores can't even touch the high scores on this forum. Games don't even have scores now really. They just have stupid little objectives that shouldn't exist in a game because they're dumb. Games today require little skill to beat.
Do you even play the 360 and know what I am talking about?
Ever play Bioshock? You know what the penalty for dying is? You respawn, along with all of the weapons/ammo in the level. The boss health doesn't reset. So, why bother trying? Just keep dying/respawning/beating at the boss. Who cares? You get infinite retries.
no effort. People turned into pansies and wan't lazy/easy success, followed by huge rewards in the forum of e-penis points
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 28, 2011, 02:08:02 AM
OK, this is nice and all, but I think this thread is not the place for it.
Also, I liked Bioshock OK. Wouldn't have paid more than $10 for it, but for $10 it was fun.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 02:13:30 AM
OK, this is nice and all, but I think this thread is not the place for it.
Also, I liked Bioshock OK. Wouldn't have paid more than $10 for it, but for $10 it was fun.
and for 59.99$ , it was a total waste of time. :D
Overhyped horsepee
Well, I wouldn't pay $59.99 these days for any game, no matter the system. As I have somewhat less time in my life right now for games, my valuations of them have changed. Abstractly, though, I agree, $60 was probably too much for Bioshock. Still, I thought it was a fun game and worth some reasonable sum of money to play for those who like those kinds of games.
Anyone remember what the most expensive US TG game cost at the time? I know most new games came out at $49.99, but surely there were some pricier ones.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 28, 2011, 02:20:13 AM
I totally agree with arkhan about the whole trophies/gamer score crap. I was playing Otomedius excellent for the first time. When I played it for a second time and decided to choose a different character I got a trophy just for selecting a new character. :lol: That's the stupid shit Arkhan is talking about. Then it goes in and is added to your total gamer score.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 03:02:44 AM
I know chrono trigger cost me 74.95$, and it was worth every penny when I was 7.
I got that and Pirates of Dark Water for SNES. Both games were well worth the money.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 28, 2011, 04:46:13 AM
Holy shit: who gives a f*ck? This thread is officially dead...
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 28, 2011, 05:14:13 AM
Anyone remember what the most expensive US TG game cost at the time? I know most new games came out at $49.99, but surely there were some pricier ones.
I'm pretty sure $50 was the max, some were cheaper. US SNES games were all over the place. Many were $50 or $60 and they maxed at $82.99 (Chrono Trigger at EB), Genesis games were almost always $50 or less except for Phantasy Star IV which was an insane $99.99 (the only game I can think of that was more expensive in the US than it was in Japan).
PC Engine games were also quite cheap in Japan. The Mega Drive might as well not have even existed, releases were so few and crappy and rare I can hardly remember any. Compared to SFC though PCE was downright cheap. Most could be had for $60-70 whereas SFC games, especially the RPGs, were routinely over $110, sometimes $125.
BTW, you "stay on topic" people can go f*ck yourselves. This is a conversation here, not a presidential debate. We've got the rest of our lives to blather about this shit and few topics are significantly more important than any other when it comes to games.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 28, 2011, 05:25:55 AM
I agree, Zeta, but the forum pissing matches get old after about six pages of internet dick wagging.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 05:26:00 AM
Some of my MSX games have prices on them that today are pushing 90$. I'm not sure what the conversion rates were in 1987 though... so maybe it was different.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 05:28:48 AM
Funny, I just saw this thread today and read through it.
Anyways, I can give some perspective of really legitimate reasons to why the TG-16 didn't fair well overall. I remember this time in my childhood vividly, due to my borderline OCD and great long term memory. :-" This is just how I and many others roughly saw things back then.
1. Third party support: No games from Konami, Capcom, Tecmo, Technos, and other third parties at that level. This of course was due to Nintendo being a greedy bitch and not letting third party companies make games for other consoles without penalty. Sega did OK starting out due to a few top arcade titles, a real 16-bit feel to it and then Sonic giving them the great boost in sales.
2. Marketing: There were no major system sellers for what most people perceived to be awesome games on it. Don't get me wrong, there are some great games that we here enjoy the hell out of. This is not the case in the eyes of your average kid used to playing major NES titles like Super Mario Bros, Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and so on in the early years. Then later on games like Actraiser, Zelda 3, Sonic, Streets of Rage, major arcade ports, etc.... This really boils down to appealing image of games, solid fun gameplay, character design and other marketing methods.
In the US, there just wasn't all too many titles that struck even my interest when the TG-16 first came out and when I owned one in 1991. I didn't even know what games were the ones to really get due to me being the only one owning one in my area, no commercials and no store demos. I remember really wanting Bloody Wolf, Ys 1+2, and later on Lords of Thunder. I just saw some of these games on shelves at EB Games, in Gamepro mags and a few flyers really. Compared to SNES and Genesis games though... I will be honest, my interest in TG-16 games didn't measure up. Remember, this is all back when I was like 9-12 years old and had friends that owned and showed me the other 16-bit consoles.
3. It isn't 16-bit like, it is, it isn't, but it is...: When it first came out, it seemed like a more powerful NES than it did an arcade like 16-bit console. It wasn't until later that it really matched the quality of the SNES and Genesis roughly '91-92. It took the CD-rom and Super CD-rom to finally achieve the same level and a few HuCards (Cadash, Air Zonk, Magical Chase are great examples).
I swear, if the Turbo Duo just stuck it out for another two years... we would have seen some really good titles in the US. Other game companies finally got the green light to develop games for it. We might have gotten some great CD titles like Gradius 2, Dracula X, Double Dragon 2, and so on. It still wouldn't have matched up commercially to the SNES and Genesis, but at least we would have gotten a lot more out of it.
To me, the third party stuff is what hurt the most. Having Capcom, Konami, etc., on board in the US would have been huge as their games were immensely popular in the late 80s/early 90s.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 28, 2011, 06:53:26 AM
To me, the third party stuff is what hurt the most. Having Capcom, Konami, etc., on board in the US would have been huge as their games were immensely popular in the late 80s/early 90s.
But those 3rd party problems existed in Japan, as well. Capcom didn't develop a single game for the PCE. All the Capcom games on PCE were converted by other companies, usually NEC Avenue, and several did make it to the US. Konami didn't hop on the bandwagon until the PCE had been out for several years. I think the first PCE release from Konami was almost the very end of 1991. Assume Konami was interested in seeing their titles released in the US at all, there would have been a 6 mo to a year delay before their games were released here, meaning we wouldn't have seen anything until summer of 1992. By that time the TG was already hurting, and I'm not sure a couple Konami shooters would have turned things around.
I think the 3rd party games the TG would have really needed in order to succeed in the US didn't exist in Japan. Basically, the TG needed solid 3rd party support within the first 2, 2.5 years of life, primarily in the form of TurboChip releases. The TG had some great games available in that span, but not enough, and certainly nothing that made the system a must-have for most of the populace.
One reason the Genesis was so popular in the US despite not having a successful history outside of the arcades was that Sega hit their software hard. Sega, like Nintendo, cut deals with publishers and provided dev tools and assistance and whatnot in an effort to get things moving. Nintendo's anti-competitive behavior didn't seem to hinder the Genesis much the way we accuse it of hurting the TG-16. I think that should illustrate to us that a Nintendo handicap didn't have to be fatal for the TG.
In fact, I think both of these points make it pretty clear that Hudson/NEC's biggest problem was a lack of creative developers with insight to a market beyond Japan. Nintendo and Sega both had very strong first party titles that really carried their systems. While many of the best games on the TG/PCE were first party, they didn't have the kind of broad appeal that Sega and Nintendo managed. Sega and Nintendo were simply much stronger first party developers than NEC/Hudson.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2011, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: arkham
You haven't made the connection yet, even though I explained it:
GAMER SCORE is not a high score in a game. It's the collective point total of all your lame ass achievments. Most people with high gamer scores can't even touch the high scores on this forum. Games don't even have scores now really. They just have stupid little objectives that shouldn't exist in a game because they're dumb. Games today require little skill to beat.
Do you even play the 360 and know what I am talking about?
Overall GAMER SCORE wasn't really what I was talking about. I agree that it is nothing more than an inflated e-penis. What I was talking about was attempting to meet each objective within the game itself. Players seem to like it. Even retro games released on modern consoles have trophies, etc al. I don't think that games need them, but they can add some fun to games once you're done with them. I see where you're coming from, though. Most modern games are one-time playthroughs with little emphasis on replay. Although I think there is a place for games like this, I would also be very happy if there were more "pick-up-and-play" games that weren't regulated to the download service. But anyway, nobody is forcing anyone to get all of the achievements/trophies. I rarely do unless I REALLY like a game (like Burnout Paradise, Uncharted 2, etc). You can turn all notifications and evidence of achievements off on the Xbox 360.
And yes, I own and play Xbox 360 and PS3. I even have a Wii, but f*ck that.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 28, 2011, 12:26:43 PM
I guess I should attempt to actually contribute something to this thread. When I think back to the games I wanted to play in the 16 bit era, it really was platformers like Bubsy and Earthworm Jim, RPGs like Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy, run 'n guns like Contra, fighting games like SF2 and beat 'em ups like TMNT. I was never too excited about Loom and Beyond Shadowgate or even OotG and Might and Magic. I had games like those on the computer, I wanted "console" games.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Sadler on November 29, 2011, 03:42:44 AM
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 29, 2011, 03:43:41 AM
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
no but I have bought awful games due to awesome box art
Deadly Towers, anyone? lol
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2011, 04:48:49 AM
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
Of course not, but I have bought the JP version of a game just to get a better box. I've done this...countless times.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Black Tiger on November 29, 2011, 06:43:34 AM
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
Especially considering that all North American consoles had lots of games with crappy cover art.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 29, 2011, 06:50:44 AM
I like NES box art after MegaMan 2.
Alot of it was pretty awesome.
Ultima Exodus, Legacy of the Wizard, Contra... it was all pretty sweet.
Jackal ruled too
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: geise on November 29, 2011, 07:07:09 AM
When I think shitty box art Astal and Guardian Heroes come to mind. I have always bought games based off of the game screen shots or from actually playing it. The TG-16's problem was it didn't have any great platformers or arcade ports, minus a few handful. Only a couple good arcade ports of shooters no one really played outside of Japan. Shooters were becoming a dying breed on the home consoles back then. Around 92 everyone was wanting fighting games. I was beginning to be in a minority still craving shooters. RPG's weren't the big thing yet in the states. It was just a bad time in the US for the system. The mindset of gamers was totally different back then. Now everyone is like "Oh, I never had a Turbo back in the day, I'm gonna check it out!" People wanted the arcade experience at home. The Genesis had a good amount of games that were decent ports of the arcade counter parts. The SNES also had some popular arcade ports.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2011, 07:45:10 AM
I think we should have a parallel discussion to this one that is about the US Saturn. I'm pretty sure that the TG16 was basically just totally doomed from the start, but I'm not sure about the Saturn.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: KingDrool on November 29, 2011, 07:52:48 AM
I agree. The more I think about the whole situation with NEC launching the Turbo up against a firmly entrenched NES and a focused Genesis, the more I tend to think they were f*cked from the beginning. Granted, they could have fared slightly better if they had made a few different decisions. But I don't think 1st or even 2nd place was possible. They certainly could've made a more respectable showing to keep the momentum up for the next generation, but it's not as though they would've followed it up with the PC-FX in the States. That thing would've certainly been DOA here.
The Saturn, though? That machine could have been great here with just a few tweaks and by doing a better job of localizing games. I love that thing. The Turbo, Dreamcast, and Saturn are my three favorite consoles ever.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: spenoza on November 29, 2011, 08:58:23 AM
The Saturn situation is similar, I agree, but that system wasn't doomed from the start for the US market like the TG. The Dreamcast is a whole other beast. It was a success in the US, and could have continued to be had it not fared so badly in Japan.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2011, 09:02:37 AM
The worst thing about the US Saturn was Sega basically releasing nothing for an entire year near the end. This was Bernie's idea...somehow it was supposed to prepare people's minds for loving the DC. I bought many imports during that time, great stuff.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 29, 2011, 09:43:50 AM
Quote
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
Anyone who wants a particular game, I don't think the box art is going to stop them, no. And I agree it didn't have a measurable impact, but that kind of thing is hard to measure. What it might have done in a few cases here and there is damage one's perception of the system overall as they saw the games on store shelves. They see the awesome, never awful artwork of the Genesis and SNES games and the always awful art of the TG-16 (embellishing, yes) and maybe they think the system is more "kiddy" or whatever. This helps them to decide to buy a different system either then or down the road. I can't say that this is directly responsible for the systems overall lackluster performance, but it may have had an impact on some people. But I don't think it stopped anyone who already wanted the system from buying it.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2011, 10:56:07 AM
There is no question whatsoever that GOOD artwork DID sell games for the PC Engine. Flavor of the month character designers could make or break games back then. Yuna, Startling Odessey. Hell, somebody bought Energy and it wasn't because they had ever played the f*cking thing. It had to have been the box. I would actually say that a huge part of the PCE apeal was the killer box art.
Hell, I STILL buy PCE games just because of the box, and through the magic that is wholesale piracy I can sample everything before I buy. Similarly I will buy and re-buy specific versions of movies, books, etc just to get the cooler packaging from specific releases.
Of course not everyone sees it this way, but many people here only buy US games, and only buy them out of nostalgia. They actually think shitty covers are awesome. My brain doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 29, 2011, 11:15:29 AM
Quote
Deadly Towers, anyone? lol
Am I the only one who enjoyed that game? I guess people didn't like the god awful music (yet strangely catchy) or the fact that you die so quickly from falling off those towers.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 29, 2011, 11:32:29 AM
Am I the only one who enjoyed that game? I guess people didn't like the god awful music (yet strangely catchy) or the fact that you die so quickly from falling off those towers.
I just thought the game itself was pretty dumb and it didn't have the atmosphere I hoped for from a game called Deadly Towers. I expected something gritty.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 29, 2011, 12:41:08 PM
Quote
I just thought the game itself was pretty dumb and it didn't have the atmosphere I hoped for from a game called Deadly Towers. I expected something gritty.
Just for that remark I'll make it my personal mission to port it over to the PC-Engine! Joking of course, but um yeah box art from that era is either really cool looking or just plain kiddy. I will say this though, the cover art on Iron Sword featuring Fabio didn't make me want to play that game as a kid unless of course it included the goose that hit him on that fated roller coaster ride (no wonder why flying creatures that looked strangely like geese did so much damage to you in that game)!
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 29, 2011, 01:11:08 PM
Ironsword sucked anyways though... :D
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: jperryss on November 29, 2011, 01:28:50 PM
Am I the only one who enjoyed that game? I guess people didn't like the god awful music (yet strangely catchy) or the fact that you die so quickly from falling off those towers.
I liked it as a kid, even finished it legitimately on a few occasions.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on November 29, 2011, 04:06:12 PM
I don't think the game is bad, I just think the cover is misleading as all hell. and the title makes it worse.
As it stands, the game is alright. Kind of dopey. But, its ok.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: guyjin on November 30, 2011, 01:33:16 PM
I need to say this too: regardless of whether the box art was better in Japan (and I think in many cases this is debatable), I really don't think that had any measurable impact on TG16 sales. Have you guys ever really not bought a game because of awful box art?
No, but when I was a kid I often made decisions about what game to rent based largely on box art; and since I never bought games without renting them first I would never buy it.
edit: well, almost never. I did occasionally buy games sight unseen from garage sales and the like, and in those cases I mostly based my choices on the cart art. Got The Guardian Legend for the NES back in the day that way.
Title: Re: 1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16
Post by: Arkhan on December 01, 2011, 12:38:12 AM
I got Legacy of the Wizard based off the sticker on the cart when I was around 8. It cost 1$ at a used shop.