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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Console Chat => Topic started by: SuperDeadite on January 06, 2012, 07:57:57 PM

Title: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 06, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
Let's do this!  All recordings will be done from a real X68000 and Roland CM-500 Synth Module.

Battle 1:  Magical Block Carat

Battle 2: Parodius Da!
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg203982#msg203982

Battle 3: Final Fight
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg205077#msg205077

Battle 3.5: Naious
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg205802#msg205802

Battle 4: Tokimeki Taisen
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg210655#msg210655

Battle 5 Part 1: Castlevania
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg213881#msg213881

SPECIAL:  Gemini Wing + Electric Guitar PCM Card
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg214437#msg214437

Arcus Odyssey
https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10833.msg214858#msg214858
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on January 06, 2012, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on January 06, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
Let's do this!  All recordings will be done from a real X68000 and Roland CM-500 Synth Module.

Battle 1:  Magical Block Carat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csv2Bia8OTE

I really like the Midi here.


(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/cooks_transb.gif)  Oh yeah! (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/cooks_transb.gif)

STATUS:
07:37 AM - Currently listening...whilst I sip morning coffee.
07:44 AM - Second time 'round...more coffee.
07:54 AM - Third round...

FMMIDI
INTROOK. Best part? The footsteps-cum-percussion at the tail end.Richer, fuller
TRACK1Better overall, but only because I hate the backing guitars in MIDIGorgeous lead synth/organ! Simply divine! Horrible (staccato) backing guitars really detract from this otherwise amazing track.
TRACK2SUPERIOR, but damn that noise (high-pitched) prevent FM from sounding as clean as MIDIThe MIDI xylophone/steel drum(?) is grating and annoying. The FM track is nuanced and has nice details, the MIDI is heavy-handed and irritating (xylophone ringing in my ear).

There was a lot of noise (Track 2 especially) that detracted from the FM, which had a lower overall volume than MIDI. Equalizing the volume might make the comparison more equitable?

BOTTOM LINE: I enjoyed both FM and MIDI. :)

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Ji-L87 on January 06, 2012, 11:40:28 PM
Not a fan of the MIDI-guitars but otherwise they both have their good and bad side - I like them both, generally speaking. Sometimes MIDI surprises with how good it can be, but also how bland it can be  :-k
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 07, 2012, 12:35:43 AM
Why say MIDI? MIDI doesn't sound at all.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SignOfZeta on January 07, 2012, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 07, 2012, 12:35:43 AM
Why say MIDI? MIDI doesn't sound at all.

Yeah, I don't get this MIDI is just digital sheet music.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 07, 2012, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on January 07, 2012, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 07, 2012, 12:35:43 AM
Why say MIDI? MIDI doesn't sound at all.

Yeah, I don't get this MIDI is just digital sheet music.

Yes I'm aware of this.  Problem is different games use different synths.  A lot of X68k games support MT-32 and SC-55 which sound quite different from each other.  The topic title is simply to keep things clean.  :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: RegalSin on January 08, 2012, 01:23:28 PM
That makes no sense.

What do you call a MarkIII without FM sound?

The Fm sound seems to have it's own flavour while the midi is only as serious as the composer. From you have told me, it should be possible to converter midi fm, and whatever.

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 08, 2012, 11:41:32 PM
Quote from: RegalSin on January 08, 2012, 01:23:28 PM
What do you call a MarkIII without FM sound?

I'd call it a Mark III
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 03:01:28 AM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on January 08, 2012, 11:41:32 PM
Quote from: RegalSin on January 08, 2012, 01:23:28 PM
What do you call a MarkIII without FM sound?

I'd call it a Mark III

Lol,  makes completely sense.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 09, 2012, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on January 07, 2012, 05:05:33 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 07, 2012, 12:35:43 AM
Why say MIDI? MIDI doesn't sound at all.

Yeah, I don't get this MIDI is just digital sheet music.

MIDI is just digital nonsense, not even just sheet music!  You can use that crap to control stage lighting.  It's wild.


The comparison exists to show FM vs. MIDI with whichever MIDI device was picked.

MIDI can sound amazing, or completely terrible.  All depends on the box being used.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 09:52:33 PM
Quote from: Arkhan on January 09, 2012, 05:53:07 PM
MIDI can sound amazing, or completely terrible.  All depends on the box being used.

Yeah, and exactly this box can be FM in several kinds as well. So it's like FM vs. Midi (= several FM and/or any other PSG, PCM or what ever music chip(s) is used)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 09, 2012, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 09:52:33 PM
Quote from: Arkhan on January 09, 2012, 05:53:07 PM
MIDI can sound amazing, or completely terrible.  All depends on the box being used.

Yeah, and exactly this box can be FM in several kinds as well. So it's like FM vs. Midi (= several FM and/or any other PSG, PCM or what ever music chip(s) is used)

right , but with the right MIDI box (MT-32), you are going to destroy FM, every time.

Ultima VI is a good example of this too

Adlib vs. MT32.  You'll pee yo'self.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
I like the MT-32 used for most of the sega arcade classics. SC-55 sure sounds very different and more like "instrumental".
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 10, 2012, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
I like the MT-32 used for most of the sega arcade classics. SC-55 sure sounds very different and more like "instrumental".

MT-32 is my favorite.

The worstest ever part of MIDI is the Windows GM crap. 

it sounds worse than cheesepianos of the late 80s/early 90s
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: RegalSin on January 10, 2012, 12:08:41 PM
You mean the programmed instruments. Yes their are many MIDI programs out their that all sounds differnt.
 
So what does the PC engine use to run the music that is not voice, or sound recordings.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 10, 2012, 12:13:49 PM
Quote from: RegalSin on January 10, 2012, 12:08:41 PM
You mean the programmed instruments. Yes their are many MIDI programs out their that all sounds differnt.
No, I mean the MIDI modules that have preset banks of sounds.

Quote
So what does the PC engine use to run the music that is not voice, or sound recordings.
It uses the sound chip built into it.  Duh.

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Ji-L87 on January 10, 2012, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: Arkhan on January 10, 2012, 12:13:49 PM
It uses the sound chip built into it.  Duh.

And what a pleasant sound chip it is <3

/off-topic
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 10, 2012, 10:49:59 PM
Its a PSG (programable sound generator) which can be feeded with sines, rectangles & sawteeth.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 11, 2012, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 10, 2012, 10:49:59 PM
Its a PSG (programable sound generator) which can be feeded with sines, rectangles & sawteeth.

and a combination of any of these!

SINETOOFS
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: alexsduo on January 11, 2012, 07:10:31 AM
I have been trying to get a Yamaha TG-33, but mostly because it has "TG" in the name...
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Mathius on January 12, 2012, 03:58:11 PM
There is just something about FM that is magical to me. When I play Castlevania X68000 on my PS1 I like to switch between sound modes via the hidden menu and listen to qualities of each. But for some reason the stock X68000 sound just... sounds "right". I am assuming the stock chip in Sharp's computer is FM, of course. I am an idiot when it comes to soundchips. But, I am learning. :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 12, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
Micro Cabin is by far the best FM user

Listen to FF1 for MSX, and you will bow to their masterfulness

Illusion City is another one.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Mathius on January 12, 2012, 04:13:17 PM
Quote from: Arkhan on January 12, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
Micro Cabin is by far the best FM user

Listen to FF1 for MSX, and you will bow to their masterfulness

Illusion City is another one.

Aye. I will do that.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 13, 2012, 12:12:42 AM
Quote from: Mathius on January 12, 2012, 03:58:11 PM
There is just something about FM that is magical to me. When I play Castlevania X68000 on my PS1 I like to switch between sound modes via the hidden menu and listen to qualities of each. But for some reason the stock X68000 sound just... sounds "right". I am assuming the stock chip in Sharp's computer is FM, of course. I am an idiot when it comes to soundchips. But, I am learning. :)

Been awhile since I booted up my PS1 version, so I don't remember how good the MIDI emulation was in that.  But for that game I go back and forth between the musics.  The game basically has three totally different soundtracks.  The FM is badass, the MT-32 is atmospheric and creepy (like Super C IV's music, but even better), and the SC-55 is goes for realistic instruments.  It's nice being able to switch when you're going for that 4th loop run as well.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Digi.k on January 17, 2012, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: Arkhan on January 10, 2012, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 09, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
I like the MT-32 used for most of the sega arcade classics. SC-55 sure sounds very different and more like "instrumental".

MT-32 is my favorite.

The worstest ever part of MIDI is the Windows GM crap.  

it sounds worse than cheesepianos of the late 80s/early 90s

remember adlib compatible soundcards ?  regarding the pc era I loved the Gravis utrasound but that was a bitch to configure......

anyway back on topic.. FM and midi both sound lovely but the FM just pips it..
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 24, 2012, 04:51:27 AM
Battle 2:  Parodius Da!

This game actually uses the FM and MIDI togheather via a mixer.  The FM supplies the drums
and the MT-32 supplies the melody and bass.   Once again both sound great, but I dig the MT-32 :)
Lots of COWBELL used in this game too. :D
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Mathius on January 24, 2012, 04:56:20 AM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on January 24, 2012, 04:51:27 AM
Battle 2:  Parodius Da!

This game actually uses the FM and MIDI togheather via a mixer.  The FM supplies the drums
and the MT-32 supplies the melody and bass.   Once again both sound great, but I dig the MT-32 :)
Lots of COWBELL used in this game too. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlDy2dxpzGc


Listening to it now. So far FM-only is my hero. :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on January 24, 2012, 05:11:30 AM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on January 24, 2012, 04:51:27 AM
Battle 2:  Parodius Da!

This game actually uses the FM and MIDI togheather via a mixer.  The FM supplies the drums
and the MT-32 supplies the melody and bass.   Once again both sound great, but I dig the MT-32 :)
Lots of COWBELL used in this game too. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlDy2dxpzGc


I look forward to listening to this later.

SUGGESTION: edit the original post with a LINK to the Battle #2 post. This way, folks can quickly jump to each comparison (and the ensuing discussion). A list (table of contents) will help everyone :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 24, 2012, 05:15:02 AM
good idea.  done :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Ji-L87 on January 26, 2012, 07:25:08 AM
This FM & MIDI-combo actually sounds all kinds of nice. Never heard of this kind of combination before, was it used by any other games?  :-k
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 26, 2012, 12:05:13 PM
Gradius II and Detana Twinbee do as well.  Which will come eventually.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on January 27, 2012, 09:23:47 AM
HOLY CANOLI, I haven't listened to this yet. I gotta check it out...

...to be continued...
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 29, 2012, 04:53:30 AM
Battle 3:  FINAL FIGHT (MT-32)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on January 29, 2012, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on January 29, 2012, 04:53:30 AM
Battle 3:  FINAL FIGHT (MT-32)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP0j2zbXek4&feature=youtu.be


More tunes to listen to tonight when I'm working! :)

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Ji-L87 on January 30, 2012, 10:51:33 PM
I think MIDI wins this round. Could've sounded sharper in some places though. The intro-song will have to be my MIDI-favorite.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: RegalSin on January 31, 2012, 12:19:00 AM
We had everything, in the 1980's. We are going to die and nobody will ever know how auwsome life sounded. We havent moved foward, we have moved backwards in time. Dammit this music is auwsome, whatever happened to our world. I bet everybody had their own theme music as well. Life was that auwsome, you know.

They are all PSG music, right? All programmed either threw keyboards, trackers, or some other source.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on January 31, 2012, 12:19:51 AM
Quote from: RegalSin on January 31, 2012, 12:19:00 AM
They are all PSG music, right? All programmed either threw keyboards, trackers, or some other source.

MIDI != PSG.  Dumbass.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: RegalSin on January 31, 2012, 02:40:09 AM
Then what is FM, genius?
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on January 31, 2012, 03:08:03 AM
MIDI = pure electronic data (nothing inside, no sound inside, no character, only pure data for later claculations, like digital notes).
FM = Frequency Modulation [FM synthesis] (e.g. a carrier-waveform signal modulated by another sine wave, which gives the music a special harmonic characteristic).
PSG = Prorammable Sound Generator (simple sines, rectangles, sawtooth, mixed over each other, back coupled etc. stuff of sounds).
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: RegalSin on January 31, 2012, 08:35:02 AM
Okay I am sorta getting this.

The PSG/FM are written/performed the same exact way.  Both are hardware dependent, and can be written
in txt, Electronic instrument input, or tracker that is supported by the hardware physically or virtually.

Question? How many PSG out their are in fact modulators that osculates frequencies? That would be hardwire. Some of the PSG on the PCE sounds good as FM sound.

MIDI is also created like PSG/FM music but it is the notes stand alone. Meaning any hardware should be able to play it, with the correct instruments. This allows for flexablitiy cross platform. The PCE for example could  use a MIDI box, just as regular computers did. We could also assume the PCE could also play MIDI, with the right instruments in memory.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on February 01, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
Battle 3.5:  Naious

Not a real battle, as this game is FM only.  No MIDI here, just a badass FM soundtrack
so good I had to upload it for the greater good of the universe!
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Ji-L87 on February 01, 2012, 06:08:10 AM
Sweet drums! The song from 5:40~ has a great melody but could really use a more defined bass-line...feels almost like two different tracks playing on top of each other :p Most other tracks are really great tho'. The track from 20:38 reminds me a bit of this but sped up.


Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on February 12, 2012, 12:39:10 PM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on February 01, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
Battle 3.5:  Naious

Not a real battle, as this game is FM only.  No MIDI here, just a badass FM soundtrack
so good I had to upload it for the greater good of the universe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1am8ZpxjRs&lc=eHs3Rpljx3E8tekm97ZKLfB9FEQJhb2JpJqHh0YTca4


I loved watching the video you made. I never heard of this game before (duh!) and I think you have to send mp3's to me.

Oh, and I hate watching videos like this because I feel like I am missing out on so many shoot-em-ups.

(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on February 12, 2012, 02:27:04 PM
Quote from: esteban on February 12, 2012, 12:39:10 PM
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)


The best, and still not implemented (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: HercTNT on February 12, 2012, 02:33:02 PM
back in the day emulators like iwin and pasofami used instrument samples to create sound because they did not know how to emulate the nes sound yet. I have to say the result was pretty wild. it was very strange to here a drum thump or guitar twang in place of explosions or guns etc..
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on February 12, 2012, 05:08:05 PM
Quote from: Tatsujin on February 12, 2012, 02:27:04 PM
Quote from: esteban on February 12, 2012, 12:39:10 PM
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)


The best, and still not implemented (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png)


I know! (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/cooks_transb.gif) (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png) (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/cooks_transp.gif)

Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Tatsujin on February 12, 2012, 05:13:26 PM
It's such a good emoticons and was invented/created years before any smilies ruled the internet. Chapeau Hudson.
Even the size is perfect for todays used PC resolutions.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on February 16, 2012, 02:18:27 AM
BATTLE 4:  Tokimeki Taisen  FM vs SC-55.
Very few doujin games bothered with MIDI, here's one that does:
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: esteban on February 22, 2012, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: SuperDeadite on February 16, 2012, 02:18:27 AM
BATTLE 4:  Tokimeki Taisen  FM vs SC-55.
Very few doujin games bothered with MIDI, here's one that does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgHSziiST6A&feature=youtu.be


The song beginning at 07:23/09:10 is catchy as hell! (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png) Love it!

I don't think there is a clear winner here: FM gets points because there are no instruments that make me cringe, but the SC-55 sounds fabulous (sans a few instruments that make me cringe)!

BOTTOM LINE: I love 'em both.


Do you have .mdx files for Tokimeki Taisen and Naious files? I want to listen to these tunes!

Actually, any help pointing me towards an up-to-date .mdx collection would be great. Thanks (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png)





Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 04, 2012, 05:23:30 PM
BATTLE 5 Part 1: Castlevania on CM-64

Testing out my new Roland CM-64 (LA Synth+PCM).  With this game, the FM, LA, GM, and GS soundtracks
all sound fantastic and are very different from each other, I love them all.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: Arkhan on March 05, 2012, 01:35:44 AM
YOURE WELCOME.
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 08, 2012, 02:03:52 AM
SPECIAL:  Gemini Wing on CM-64 + SN-U110-07 Electric Guitar PCM Expansion Card

This is the only game I've ever heard of that uses the expansion cards to add extra sounds to the
CM-64 Synth Module.  Synth Guitar haters won't like this one, but for 1990 it sounds damn badass imo. :)
Title: Re: FM Synth vs MIDI
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 10, 2012, 04:29:31 AM
Arcus Odyssey on CM-64

This sounds fantastic.  If you liked the Genny version, you must hear this: