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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: nat on February 17, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
Title: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 17, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
With the talks of an upcoming Sabbath reunion album, I've been revisiting some of their catalog being the classic metal fan that I am. It begs the question.... which lineup is best? I've included only what I consider the three "real" Sabbath lineups here, the lineups that at least 3/4 of the band was usually made up of original members.
I don't consider any of the late 80s stuff to be "real" Black Sabbath, where Tony Iommi is the only actual Sabbath member and the rest of the band is sort of made up of a rotating cast of characters. These are basically Iommi solo albums marketed under the Sabbath label for financial and/or contractual reasons.
The Dio lineup gets my vote. The three (four if you count the album The Devil You Know, released under the "Heaven & Hell" label) albums they released are musically and lyrically just spectacular. Dio's voice fits the Sabbath soundscape better than either of the other guys, plus he can actually sing. The band has never sounded tighter than it does on these albums. Also, this lineup recorded three new tracks for a 2007 Sabbath Best-of compilation, and proved time can't touch the amazing talent of these guys. It's some pretty amazing consistency, especially considering the span of time (27 years).
Gillan lineup would be my second choice. They only did one album, but boy was it a killer. This lineup might have actually been my number one had they released more material, and had it been up to par with the Born Again album. Ian Gillan (originally of Deep Purple) is a great singer, although he's not quite as good a fit IMO as Dio. He sings the Ozzy songs better than Ozzy, though.
Ozzy is my third choice. I don't particularly like Ozzy Osborne, as a person, or as a singer. He can't really sing, hence the invention of the trademark Ozzy double-tracked vocals. He's a doofus. Even my dislike of Ozzy can't deny the musicianship of the other members, however, and they did some really good stuff with him in the band. I feel a lot of it was overexposed and has been given more attention over the years than it probably deserves. The Born Again album, for example, is better than most of what the band did with Osbourne. Nobody knows this, though, because only the radio-friendly Ozzy singles ever get any airplay.
I have to say I'm less than excited about these upcoming "reunion projects" (Sabbath, Van Halen, etc). Ozzy never could sing, and the fact that he's now nine hundred and five certainly won't be helping matters. I'm idly interested to see what they come up with on the off chance they're able to generate another "Paranoid." I guess since Ronnie James Dio is dead and isn't around for another reunion this is the next best thing.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 17, 2012, 01:14:12 PM
The Ozzy ver was an absolutely revolutionary band, but the Dio ver made way better albums.
Overall though, IMO, this band is rather lame compared to other metal acts. Once Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys and Maiden's mid 80s stuff was in my posesion, I just couldn't get into stuff like Sabboth.
BTW, Sabboth has no business doing a reunion tour and, I'm pretty sure, won't, despite the talk.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 17, 2012, 01:38:07 PM
Overall though, IMO, this band is rather lame compared to other metal acts. Once Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys and Maiden's mid 80s stuff was in my posesion, I just couldn't get into stuff like Sabboth.
Have you heard any of Maiden's most recent album? I think it came out within the past 2 years or so. I haven't heard the whole thing, but the two or three songs I've heard are really, really good. I've been meaning to grab it.
No doubt. Early Sabbath/Ozzy Sabbath, along with Deep Purple and some help from Blue Oyster Cult more or less invented metal.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: T2KFreeker on February 17, 2012, 01:50:39 PM
Sabbath with Ozzy was amazing. It was so different from other things that were coming out at the time. The sound was unlike what was happening. I had to vote for the Ozzy lineup, however, I loved Sabbath with Dio as well. I still pop Sabbath in from time to time but find myself listening to more Motorhead and Judas Priest these days than anything else.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: BigusSchmuck on February 17, 2012, 01:55:12 PM
Overall though, IMO, this band is rather lame compared to other metal acts. Once Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys and Maiden's mid 80s stuff was in my posesion, I just couldn't get into stuff like Sabboth.
Have you heard any of Maiden's most recent album? I think it came out within the past 2 years or so. I haven't heard the whole thing, but the two or three songs I've heard are really, really good. I've been meaning to grab it.
No doubt. Early Sabbath/Ozzy Sabbath, along with Deep Purple and some help from Blue Oyster Cult more or less invented metal.
Maiden's new album rocks (The final Frontier), it was much better than the last one. So 3 out of 4 albums that Maiden has released in the past 10 years are pretty good. As for Black Sabbath, the best lineup IMHO are the original guys. I did manage to see them live back in 01, was pretty epic at Ozzfest.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: BlueBMW on February 17, 2012, 01:59:09 PM
I vote for whoever did the sountrack to Nexzr.... I listen almost exclusively to video game music with some classical mixed in (dvorak, john adams, even some gregorian chant here and there) I was never much into metal so my opinion on Black Sabbath is non-existent really. I dont know who any of those people are except for that, as you put it, doofus Osbourne.
Carry on! :D
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: TheClash603 on February 17, 2012, 02:11:59 PM
Black Sabbath went downhill after their self-titled song... damn shame since it was the first song on their first album. Probably my favorite thing they've ever done.
An aside, every time I hear Crazy Train, I get really angry.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Chuplayer on February 17, 2012, 02:24:27 PM
I vote for Ozzy era Sabbath. I like that best. I don't dislike the Dio era, but I always liked Dio's solo work and his time in Rainbow better.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on February 17, 2012, 06:16:37 PM
No mention of Geezer Butler, Tony Iommi and Tony Martin lineup of the mid 90's? Cross Purposes was my favorite Sabbath album ever. More people need to give it a listen if they haven't already.
Tony Martin is totally underrated.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 17, 2012, 08:53:11 PM
Overall though, IMO, this band is rather lame compared to other metal acts. Once Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys and Maiden's mid 80s stuff was in my posesion, I just couldn't get into stuff like Sabboth.
Have you heard any of Maiden's most recent album? I think it came out within the past 2 years or so. I haven't heard the whole thing, but the two or three songs I've heard are really, really good. I've been meaning to grab it.
Hell yes. That was my number one jam for about three weeks last August. Very very good stuff.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 17, 2012, 08:56:34 PM
This is good news. I'll have to stop procrastinating and just pick it up.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 17, 2012, 09:18:58 PM
I bought it on iTunes and then found the double picture disc at the store. I f*cking HATE that.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: blueraven on February 17, 2012, 09:21:21 PM
Maiden is f*cking badass. And yes, their new record is killer. I saw them a few years back, shortly after the event where Sharon Osborne pelted him with eggs and kicked them off Ozzfest.
Queenscryche opened the show.
Original sabbath, although the name of the 1st Dio fronted record was "Heaven And Hell" that was the band name for the 2006? 7? reunion. They officially changed the name to Heaven and Hell because Sharon threatened to sue Tony Iommi and Dio.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 18, 2012, 07:02:08 AM
Original sabbath, although the name of the 1st Dio fronted record was "Heaven And Hell" that was the band name for the 2006? 7? reunion. They officially changed the name to Heaven and Hell because Sharon threatened to sue Tony Iommi and Dio.
Yes, I know. Sharon Osborne is a gigantic bitch (some might even say a Digital Bitch). That was a really dick move.
I gotta say, I'm disappointed in the PCEFX crowd so far as far as this poll goes. [-(
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Arkhan on February 18, 2012, 09:11:54 AM
I gotta say, I'm disappointed in the PCEFX crowd so far as far as this poll goes. [-(
Yes its puzzling. :roll: I mean, Dio is great, and Heaven & Hell is also equally amazing, but what Black Sabbath did when they got together was pretty much totally f*cking unheard of. There were some bands that were going in a heavier direction at the time, but to say that any incarnation of Sabbath other than the Ozzy fronted version is better than the original is just false.
That said, at 5'2" Dio was a monster and had pipes until the end.
I suppose I could have brought up Mötörhead as a counter-example but they were a bit later.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 18, 2012, 04:53:27 PM
There were some bands that were going in a heavier direction at the time, but to say that any incarnation of Sabbath other than the Ozzy fronted version is better than the original is just false.
Hold on now, that's strictly a matter of opinion.
They did some groundbreaking stuff, and along with a couple other bands of the same era essentially pioneered heavy metal music, but let's not overstate the matter here. A good portion of it was being in the right place, at the right time.
The stuff the band did with Dio and Gillan singing was much better than a lot of the Ozzy-era stuff, and it could just as easily have been either of them in Ozzy's place. I know, it wasn't, and who knows how things might have turned out had it been either of the other two.
I suppose there are two ways to look at the question presented here: the musical aspect, and the effect on music history angle. You'd be hard pressed to make a case for either of the other iterations in favor of the Ozzy era if we're talking strictly about the latter.
However, looking back and taking the songs on musical merits alone, I find the music produced during the Dio and Gillan eras head and shoulders above (much of) the music of the Ozzy era. Plus, the whole actually being able to sing aspect and all that.
To say that someone's opinion is "false," however, is taking things a little far, I think.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 18, 2012, 07:24:57 PM
I blame shitty modern rock radio. People who listen to that shit are ignorant of %99.9999999 of what music is. They think "Black Sabboth" and they think of two songs. Pink Floyd is also two songs. Nirvana was five songs, but now they are just two songs as well. Most people only listen to music they've heard hundreds of times. They only know what they consider to be staples and "remember that band?". Most people I know can't even remember the last time they heard any song for the first time. It's just background noise to them.
Dio-era is soooo much more competent stuff, way better than Ozzy. Better than Ozzy-era Sabboth and WAY better than Ozzy's solo stuff. People just don't f*cking know, and you can't show it to them.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SMF on February 19, 2012, 04:00:25 AM
I voted Ozzy era Sabbath, Its just amazing what those 4 did in their time in life in the shithole they was coming from. When you create "Paranoid" as a album filler and it goes on to be one of if not the biggest hit Sabbath had.
I enjoy Dio of course, But Dio's solo work was much better then his work with Sabbath. Now with all that said.
I think what Ozzy, Tony and Geezer are doing to Bill Ward is a f*cking joke. But as fans we dont really know whats going on in the inner circle and will prob never really know the truth.
I hope Tony makes a full recover from cancer and cant wait to hear the first new Sabbath CD in 30 years. The Ozzy & Friends moniker as a tour might be cool if they get some awesome guests to perform. but its a wait and see thing.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SMF on February 19, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Coincidentally just found out like an hour ago Maiden/Alice Cooper will be at Summerfest in Milwaukee this year :twisted: :twisted: :-({|= :-({|=
Iron Maiden are delighted to announce that the extraordinary and legendary Alice Cooper will be their Very Special Guest on all shows up to July 21. After that date, Special Guest will be Coheed and Cambria, the inspiring, cutting edge band from New York.
Ill be at the Buffalo NY show on July 16th WOOHOO
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Opethian on February 19, 2012, 04:25:16 AM
Vol. 4 thats all you need
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Arkhan on February 19, 2012, 06:24:26 AM
Dio-era is soooo much more competent stuff, way better than Ozzy. Better than Ozzy-era Sabboth and WAY better than Ozzy's solo stuff. People just don't f*cking know, and you can't show it to them.
I dunno, Randy Rhoads kinda makes Ozzy's solo stuff pretty awesome.
but yeah, modern rock radio sucks.
Same 3 ACDC songs, same annoying f*cking pink floyd shit, that stupid Joe Walsh a$$hole's song about Maserati's, that one Bob Seger song, its all the same shit. There are jukeboxes in dipshit bowling alleys with better variety.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 19, 2012, 06:29:57 AM
Dio-era is soooo much more competent stuff, way better than Ozzy. Better than Ozzy-era Sabboth and WAY better than Ozzy's solo stuff. People just don't f*cking know, and you can't show it to them.
I dunno, Randy Rhoads kinda makes Ozzy's solo stuff pretty awesome.
Randy Rhoads is f*cking awesome, but sadly he's not enough to make Ozzy's solo stuff anything more than listenable. Actually, some of that early Blizzard of Oz stuff isn't too bad. After Randy died though, it was all over.
Quote
but yeah, modern rock radio sucks.
Same 3 ACDC songs, same annoying f*cking pink floyd shit, that stupid Joe Walsh a$$hole's song about Maserati's, that one Bob Seger song, its all the same shit. There are jukeboxes in dipshit bowling alleys with better variety.
I won't even listen to standard radio anymore; haven't for years. I got on the Sirius satellite radio bandwagon like 7 years ago and never looked back. The music channels are all commercial free for the most part, and they dig waaaaaaaay deeper into band's catalogs than regular radio is willing.
You'll hear stuff from Gillan-era Sabbath, for example. Or they'll play the entire 21 minute 2112 suite from Rush. Or the 23 minute song Echoes from Pink Floyd. And they do the shit on a regular basis, not just as part of some "special" every now and then.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 19, 2012, 08:02:01 AM
Satellite isn't much better than terrestrial radio, IMO.
OK, strike that, its WAY better than terrestrial radio, but I'm still not interested. I either buy things, pirate things, or listen to one of two stations: WFMU (New Jersey) or WCBN (Ann Arbor). The variety of shit these stations play is INSANE and since they are listener supported they have zero ads. Their ranges are obviously limited (WCBN is so weak I can't even get it in my Miata unless I'm literally a mile or less from the station) but you can listen for free via internet and since all phones can do this now...the traditional idea of a "radio station" is f*cking dead to me. I will never hear another another used car or debt reduction ad again.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: blueraven on February 19, 2012, 08:10:19 AM
Randy Rhoads is f*cking awesome, but sadly he's not enough to make Ozzy's solo stuff anything more than listenable. Actually, some of that early Blizzard of Oz stuff isn't too bad. After Randy died though, it was all over.
I'm a guitar person, so Rhoads is the shit for me. Post Rhoads was ok with Jake E. Lee.. once Zakk Wylde hit the stage, f*ck that.
Quote
I won't even listen to standard radio anymore; haven't for years. I got on the Sirius satellite radio bandwagon like 7 years ago and never looked back. The music channels are all commercial free for the most part, and they dig waaaaaaaay deeper into band's catalogs than regular radio is willing.
You'll hear stuff from Gillan-era Sabbath, for example. Or they'll play the entire 21 minute 2112 suite from Rush. Or the 23 minute song Echoes from Pink Floyd. And they do the shit on a regular basis, not just as part of some "special" every now and then.
I think the only two bands on the radio I don't mind the same ol same ol of are Rush and Journey.
Everything else, I get mad. So it's a nightmare when my iPod or whatever dies mid-car ride.
Sometimes I just blast the Insanity soundtrack that's in the cd player instead. I'd rather listen to my own shit on repeat for a week than hear Thunderstruck again.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Opethian on February 19, 2012, 04:26:02 PM
Jake E. Lee = Bark at the Moon = f*ck yea!
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Arkhan on February 20, 2012, 02:06:12 AM
Jake knows how to play guitar. His stuff sounds really similar to Rhoads.
then, Wylde, just sounds like a mess.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nodtveidt on February 20, 2012, 10:54:44 AM
Dio fan, personally. Dehumanizer will always be my favorite Black Sabbath album, with Computer God and Too Late being my favorite songs. In fact, I was going to name my video game store "Digital Dreams" after a lyric in Computer God. Unfortunately, those stores cost money to set up. :(
Second choice would be Ozzy-fronted Sabbath. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is my second favorite Sabbath album, with the title track and Spiral Architect being my favorite songs off of that album. I obviously love the Paranoid album, and I learned to play Electric Funeral flawlessly, as it was my favorite from that album.
I did NOT like Cross Purposes. The Sabbath magic, I felt, was lost after Dehumanizer. And now that Dio is gone, it'll never come back.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: Arkhan on February 21, 2012, 02:40:23 AM
Ozzy always did a fine job on Paranoid, but this live version with Ian Gillan gives classic Paranoid a run for its money.
Going to sound like an elitist, but I don't think that Gillian can be compared to Ozzy or even Dio.
Rhodes was a badass. Shame what happened.
I saw Ozzy in 2002 with Robert Trujillo and Zakk Wylde. Trujillo was doing back-flips onstage. Wylde was keeping up, but played like a train-wreck. This was right before the Metallica bassist switch where Trujillo and Jason Newstead switched places. Maybe it was an off-night. I think "Bark At The Moon" was the only song he didn't play that night. It was on the Merry Mayhem toru, and Ozzy arrived in a hot air balloon, and was throwing balloons filled with glitter and water at the audience.
I went and saw Ozzy again on the second half of the tour with Jason Newstead, and it was a different band. Ozzy was on less medication and more animated and Jason held the band together like glue. He got a bad rap all of those years in Metallica, and has really been able to stretch out with Voivod.
Opening were Soil, Mudvayne, and Rob Zombie
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 22, 2012, 02:38:13 PM
Ozzy always did a fine job on Paranoid, but this live version with Ian Gillan gives classic Paranoid a run for its money.
Sorry Nat to me it kinda sounds like when Motley Crue did Paranoid Live at the beginning. Close my eyes and all i heard was Vince on stage lol.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: SMF on February 22, 2012, 05:25:29 PM
I have to say Joe Holmes ranks in the top 3 Ozzy guitarists. Randy/Joe/Jake. Joe was a student of Randys and their playing are eerily similar.
Also nice to see Geezer playing bass.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: blueraven on February 22, 2012, 07:53:29 PM
Wait I'm confused. *rereads thread*
Went back over the Gillian stuff, and I see the comparison, but respectfully disagree. He's a good singer, and the band is playing a lot tighter, but the Paranoid just doesn't do it for me. The same reaction I have about James LaBrie of Dream Theater. While authoritative and obviously doing the best job that he can, Gillian lacks the insanity of Ozzy and the crazy edge of Dio. Understanding that he is both a great musician and consistent singer in his own right, Gillian is not my cup of tea.
Iron Man does give the original a run for its money. They sound f*cking awesome actually.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: nat on February 23, 2012, 12:56:36 PM
Went back over the Gillian stuff, and I see the comparison, but respectfully disagree. He's a good singer, and the band is playing a lot tighter, but the Paranoid just doesn't do it for me. The same reaction I have about James LaBrie of Dream Theater. While authoritative and obviously doing the best job that he can, Gillian lacks the insanity of Ozzy and the crazy edge of Dio. Understanding that he is both a great musician and consistent singer in his own right, Gillian is not my cup of tea.
Iron Man does give the original a run for its money. They sound f*cking awesome actually.
Your arguments are valid; lots of people have said Gillan was a poor fit for the band. Personality and presence-wise, maybe. I can't offer a strong counter argument there. However, I do much prefer his vocals over just about any Osborne vocal. I also think the Born Again album is of Sabbath's best, ever.
Yeah, I go either way on that Paranoid clip depending on the day, but that version of Iron Man should be the definitive version of the song, IMO. It doesn't get any better than that.
Sorry Nat to me it kinda sounds like when Motley Crue did Paranoid Live at the beginning. Close my eyes and all i heard was Vince on stage lol.
Vince Neil? What the hell? Haha, I'm hard pressed to derive any similarities between Gillan and Neil.
Title: Re: Black Sabbath Poll
Post by: esteban on February 23, 2012, 06:17:27 PM
I avoided this thread because there is no way in hell I can decide between Ozzy and Dio.
I can argue/debate about a lot of things, but I refuse to choose one over the other.
They are BOTH Sabbath*.
But...if you'll allow me to contradict myself and piss you off at the same time:
(1) I grew up on both Ozzy and Dio incarnations, but I always felt that 70's Sabbath = the TRUE ESSENCE (2) *I love Dio. But, don't hate me, Dio is Dio. He is so distinctive that I place him in his own category. So even when I'm listening to Heaven and Hell/Mob Rules, I think, "This is Dio, with Sabbath supporting him" and not "This is Sabbath, with Dio" (3) So, yes, I take anything and everything Dio has done and place it in one bin labeled "Dio" (4) I cannot say the same for Ozzy. My love for him is based on the 70's Sabbath albums, not his later stuff. (5) IT DOESN'T MATTER IF OZZY CAN SING OR NOT. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that part of Sabbath's distinctive atmosphere/mood is generated by OZZY's pseudo-singing. Remember, I think this is the ONE TRUE Sabbath. This is the genetic core. I loved it and I continue loving it. (6) Speaking of Dio, I love "Strange Highways". Usually my heart is swollen with 80's content. But there's something wonderful about "Strange Highways" that lets it sneak in. (7) Speaking of Sabbath, I've always thought that "Supertzar" was a corny-yet-awesome title for a song. Apparently, I haven't changed much since 4th grade. (8) I actually enjoy drinking "Sweat Leaf" tea products, but I can't help but think of a particular Sabbath song whilst slaking my thirst: (http://danielleshroyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sweet-leaf-300x300.jpg) (9) I'll stop now.
See? I found a cheesy way to get around the whole "What's the best Sabbath line-up?" question. I also found a way to totally contradict my initial plan (to not make any comments).
(10) I am not completely in love with the most recent Maiden (the astronaut corpse cover art). Nat, of course you should get it...but, it is lacking (some songs are tedious, but they were intended to be "epic"... but they aren't strong enough to be epic.) (11) The Maiden album prior to that (zombie soliders + tank?) was better, I think, but still not amazing. (12) I really liked Brave New World, though. That had some spark to it. Moxie.
(13) As a kid, I had those "BLACK VELVET + Flourescent" posters for Maiden and Dio. I LOVED THOSE POSTERS. I wish I kept them. Folks who have been around here a long time may be sick of my lament for these posters.
(14) A few years ago, I finally watched the film "Black Sabbath". (15) OK, now I'll stop.