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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: ddd1234 on February 28, 2012, 07:05:14 AM
Title: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: ddd1234 on February 28, 2012, 07:05:14 AM
I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it. I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups. They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on February 28, 2012, 07:14:15 AM
Nope, not at all. Newer shooters may look better in terms of more colors, resolution, etc., but their play mechanics are no better than older shooties (worse in the case of bullet hells).
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: ddd1234 on February 28, 2012, 07:26:30 AM
Don't get me wrong, I still love some shooters like Sapphire, Lords of thunder, Nexzr and various other CD shmups.
But Hucard games seem to suffer the most for me.
I guess PCE shmups are more fair in terms of difficulty and gameplay, whereas Saturn shmups throw everything at you but the kitchen sink.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Black Tiger on February 28, 2012, 07:38:05 AM
Post 16-bit shooters have lost some of their magic for me as time goes on. I only apreciate 8 & 16-bit shooters all the more. Even the best 32+-bit shooters feel clunky and unweildly compared to 16-bit games. It seems like they are made by people who don't understand the feel of 16-bit shooters that makes them so special and most seem to be designed for arcades. The tweaks made for console play make most shooters that much better. Super Darius 2 is a good example, which is so much more enjoyable for than the arcade and Saturn versions and even has nicer visuals in many places.
Aeroblasters is a good example of a HuCard game. It's one of my favorite shooters of all time and the arcade and arcade faithful Genesis versions just don't feel the same, even though they are technically superior in may ways.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on February 28, 2012, 07:41:12 AM
I think Star Soldier for MSX rules.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on February 28, 2012, 07:42:51 AM
One thing I can appreciate about older PCE shooters is that for most of them, once you memorize a few tricky spots and general play techniques, you can kick back and just enjoy the game. Not only can you probably finish it, but the simple scoring systems make it a lot easier to deal with mistakes. When I play shmups from the mid-90's forward, no matter what the so-called difficulty level is, I'm always on the edge of my seat trying to exploit the scoring system to whatever extreme I can.
I'm pretty good at Radiant Silvergun, but I can screw up an entire run so badly with a single split-second mistake that I'll just reset the game. In Lords of Thunder, I can usually recover a little goof well enough to finish the game and still score pretty well.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Digi.k on February 28, 2012, 08:30:24 AM
I'll always put on parodius.. and if you got it Tatsujin I think still looks amazing as well as hucards: raiden, hana taka daka and pc dengin
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Bonknuts on February 28, 2012, 12:29:37 PM
Quote
PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: RegalSin on February 28, 2012, 01:17:03 PM
I understand, but the Saturn is one big censored flip-flop system, that breifly took the place of the PCE, along with the Playstation. The Saturn is a 3d system, with two proccessors. The PCE can do every single 2d feet the Saturn gave to us, if they only tried. Look at the N64 and Resident Evil 2.
With a 2d game, each proccessor does a seperate job. With the PCE you have one 8-bit proccessor doing most of the work, with a small amount of memory.
However honestly I was into Saturn games, but I got sick of it. I wanted less 3d and more 2d. Then when I discovered that most of the Saturn games were on the PCE, I said so long Nights, and hello Deneb.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: ddd1234 on February 28, 2012, 02:56:45 PM
I understand, but the Saturn is one big censored flip-flop system, that breifly took the place of the PCE, along with the Playstation. The Saturn is a 3d system, with two proccessors. The PCE can do every single 2d feet the Saturn gave to us, if they only tried.
What? Not possible! Let me see Pc-Engine handle stage 2 of Galactic attack/Layer Section.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on February 28, 2012, 03:23:18 PM
Bah [-( I got my Jap Sega Saturn 10 years ago and I've got all those games plus more (have since appreciated in price) You MUST get RS and Layer Section(best on SS). But having said that, I got my PCE about 2 years ago and absolutely LOVE the shooters. There is just something about them and the media, love them f'ing HUs! The SS and the PCE are a shooter fans heaven so consider yourself privileged. Nothing like playing some RS, then Layer Section Then finishing up with......... =; Violent Soldier
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on February 28, 2012, 03:35:14 PM
Jumped too fast, I suppose you already have Layer Section, but what a frigging game, the music is just crazy (good). I strongly believe you will find a need for Hu shooters again. They may look simple but they will always have a certain magic. I mean look at Soldier Blade and Parodius, they certainly warrant some attention.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: ddd1234 on February 28, 2012, 03:47:11 PM
Oh ya, I will go back to them eventually, because I love shooters and teh PCE. But these days I am totally hooked on the Saturn, and I do enjoy the crazy "edge of your seat" type game play.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 28, 2012, 03:51:35 PM
It's so apples vs. oranges.
SS shewties are mostly arcade ports of that time/era, so are most of the PS1 shewties. PCE also had a lot of arcade ports of its time/era, but also tons of exclusive console only shewties.
Just generally saying that they're outdated due to technical limitations is BS.
If you can't appreciate 'em anymore, then it's your very own beef. But i doubt that most of the peeps thinking that way.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on February 28, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
I hear ya. If you had not previously experienced the Saturn and are an avid shooter fan, getting hooked on it right now is completely understandable. If you love shooters, you owe it to yourself to try a Saturn one day guys. What sux is the prices going up. Man, i love shooters, my "best" genre of them all.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 28, 2012, 05:36:36 PM
sure i think the same way. and so does the PS1 have its raison d'être. both have great shewties and both have their very own exclusive titles. and some of the shared titles are better played on the saturn, while others are better on the PS1.
if you love/choose 32-bit (aka 16-bit arcade) home shooting, you can't miss both of 'em.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Samurai Ghost on February 28, 2012, 05:40:30 PM
I'm a fan a both. I have tons of shooters on both the Saturn and PCE, and both have their time and place for me. The gameplay style is just different for each generation of shooters. With the Saturn a lot of games started towards the bullet-hell play style while the PCE shooters are more old school style with more enemy dodging and the like.
As much as I love the Saturn, the fact is that there are tons of great shooters that never came out on the Saturn that were on the PCE HuCard format, like PC Denjin, Magical Chase, Hana taka da, and the fantastic Soldier series. To me I love the gameplay, presentation, and music of these games despite the technical superiority of shooters on the Saturn, Dreamcast, PS2, PS3/360, iOS, etc. Those games will always be great no matter what else came out after them!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: fragmare on February 28, 2012, 05:46:25 PM
I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it. I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups. They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?
A good game's a good game no matter what era it came from. I've got favorite shmups from just about every era of gaming ranging from Asteroids Deluxe (if you count that a shmup) on up through Raiden IV.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 28, 2012, 06:08:17 PM
I personally would put GoT over any shewties that came out on both the saturn or PS1, at any times.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Digi.k on February 28, 2012, 08:37:01 PM
I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it. I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups. They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?
Battle Garegga is an awesome shmup as I too have a sega saturn but noway will i get rid of my pce..
You should also consider cotton 2 and cotton boomerang and Sengoku blaede... plus another game called game paradise but you have to twink around the options screen to improve the gameplay which is all in japanese..
Consider an xbox 360 for its shmups as well, the ones by cave some are region free and are getting quite expensive now.. and the slew of shmups on the XBL arcade is another realm to discover and be surprised by..
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 28, 2012, 10:19:50 PM
Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: HercTNT on February 29, 2012, 12:33:07 AM
tyrian 2000 is my favorite non pce shooter. other than that, the pce is my shooter get away. I'm not saying that other systems dont have decent shooters. I'm just saying they dont have the magic that the pce ones have in my opinion. I never get tired of them.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Bernie on February 29, 2012, 12:35:37 AM
Saturn to me WAS shooters and fighters to me. A lot of good arcade ports there and some new ones like Thunderforce 5. I have recently been getting back into PS2 shooters (Raiden 3, Ibara, Mushi, Dodon, etc) and the retro collections (SNK and Taito). But to be truthful, a lot of that has to do with the new 500gb HD I installed and Gamestop dumping PS2 games (10 games for $7?! Why sure, I'll take a look at the trash that has been picked over for a decade now)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: turbokon on February 29, 2012, 02:26:30 AM
I personally would put GoT over any shewties that came out on both the saturn or PS1, at any times.
Couldn't agree more. GOT is the best shooter ever made. I played shooters on the newer systems, latest one being raiden iv for the 360, which I think is the best with what the latest crops have to offer. That being said, I always find myself playing shooters more on the turbo.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: ddd1234 on February 29, 2012, 06:16:28 AM
Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.
Who got rid of their PCE?
Quote
Oh I am positive we have a few here that strive to be just that, a moron...
Sounds like you are taking a indirect (cheap) shot at me. As a fan, I have been collecting Pc-Engine games over the past several years, so it makes no f*cking sense for me to sell my Pc-Engine. I still like the system.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on February 29, 2012, 07:07:42 AM
Heh. My biggest gripe over bullet hell shmups is that many of 'em shrink the hit box down to a single pixel; 'evading' enemy shots when they clearly hit your ship is le dumb.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: geise on February 29, 2012, 07:34:59 AM
I used to love Cave games and some bullet hell's like RS, but I have a hard time playing them now. The "on purpose" slow down, 1 pixel hitbox, and soemtimes impossible unavoidable deaths, makes the genre boring. The chaining/scoring make it fun for a while, but the earlier Cave games like E.S.P. Ra De and Dangun Feveron were where I had my last major enjoyment with a bullet hell game. Well I did like Mushihimesama 1.5 on the 360.
PCE shooters I can always, always, always come back to and enjoy. It's not just because that's what I grew up with, (cause I also grew up with Saturn shooters) it's mainly they are so much fun to play. It's just different playing a shooter on the PCE than it is on other systems. I guess is if you really didn't grow up with the system it's kinda hard to explain.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Black Tiger on February 29, 2012, 07:40:51 AM
What I'm not fond of in bullet hell games is that they break the feeling of flight and it seems more like a puzzle game with a background just for the sake of it. Instead of feeling like I'm flying through places, to often bullet hell games feel more like Galaga, Space Invaders, Silpheed, etc. I still enjoy games like that, but one of the things I love about 16-bit shooters is the balanced action and feeling immersed in the world of a game.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Joe Redifer on February 29, 2012, 08:27:42 AM
Personally, I tend to prefer designed-for-console shooters over arcade shooters. There are some arcade shooters which I feel are better on the console than in the arcade, like R-Type or the aforementioned Aero Blasters. I don't really care for anything made by Cave. Just the music alone is fatiguing.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on February 29, 2012, 09:31:43 AM
I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".
Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.
But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place. :)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Black Tiger on February 29, 2012, 11:04:51 AM
I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".
Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.
But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place. :)
Have you tried Gate of Thunder?
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 29, 2012, 11:18:20 AM
Heh. My biggest gripe over bullet hell shmups is that many of 'em shrink the hit box down to a single pixel; 'evading' enemy shots when they clearly hit your ship is le dumb.
THIS!!!
I liked 'em until like Dodonpachi era, what came after got just worse and worse. also graphically wise, since they had more and more replaced good old handrawn sprites through pre-render cack.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 29, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".
Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.
But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place. :)
What a strange point of view.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on February 29, 2012, 12:32:26 PM
Actually, the thing that I find most disappointing about Cave games is that they've stylistically sold out to the anime crowd over the last decade or so. Back in the Dodonpachi days, their visuals were cultivating a very tight angular-perspective low-res look. I don't know how much of that was hand-drawn or computer assisted, but it was a unique style and a good example of 2D video game art. Nowadays, I feel like they just throw in whatever background they can pre-render fastest and bank on a bunch of anime lolis to catch people's interest.
Ketsui, however, is the shit. There's not a single aspect of that game that I don't like.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on February 29, 2012, 01:12:45 PM
Bah forget cave games, the real big hits on the Sega Saturn are Radiant Silvergun, Layer Section, Battle Garegga, Batsugun (ok some of Toaplan formed Cave) and Soukyugurentai. Layer Section is unbelievable. The music is the best, the gameplay is challenging, the weapon system while simple just feels right, and there are no bombs to save your ass. The graphics are gorgeous and reminds me of old school shooters but jazzed up. Watch some vids and tell me if this game ain't epic.
Off to play Einhander; gotta love the techno soundtrack. To the guy who doesn't like horizontal, come on Gradius V was the Shizuoka (iPAD inserted that one :-s)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Bernie on February 29, 2012, 03:14:24 PM
Quote
Sounds like you are taking a indirect (cheap) shot at me. As a fan, I have been collecting Pc-Engine games over the past several years, so it makes no f*cking sense for me to sell my Pc-Engine. I still like the system.
Touchy any? :-({|= I wasn't referring to "YOU" in particular..
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Obfuscate on February 29, 2012, 03:17:30 PM
I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups. They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play.
Sucks for you......
....but you'll be back
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on February 29, 2012, 04:44:21 PM
I love shooters, but I have trouble with ones that are too simple or too complex (especially complex scoring and tiered systems and bullet hell crap). The PCE is a great platform because there are a number of shooters which are straight-forward. They give you options for dealing with enemies but they don't cause you to flip out.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 29, 2012, 05:01:56 PM
PCE is shooter king, that was decided since day one.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on February 29, 2012, 07:17:43 PM
Damn, the software bible tells me it's on disc! I don't have a duo. But... it seems to have been released on PSN as well, maybe I'll check it out there!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: bartre on February 29, 2012, 10:42:46 PM
Damn, the software bible tells me it's on disc! I don't have a duo. But... it seems to have been released on PSN as well, maybe I'll check it out there!
honestly, i'm kinda with you on the whole horizontal thing, i've liked significantly fewer horizontal shmups when compared to vertical. that said, GATE OF THUNDER! play it, yo.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on February 29, 2012, 11:12:52 PM
I can't believe there are still peeps out there haven't ever play any GoT :(
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: RegalSin on February 29, 2012, 11:19:32 PM
PCE is shooter king, that was decided since day one.
The PCE is numbaaaa wwwon in everything. Just not the extreme usage of 3d graphics. With that said, all is right in the world. It is soooo perfect. The only thing that prevented it from being perfect is man laws, Who really cares, about mans laws. this is what I love about future world. Everybody has a five second attention span.
However in terms of Shooters. The NES also has it's share of creative content as well.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: soop on March 01, 2012, 12:08:05 AM
Well, I really like Puzznic. So there.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: majors on March 01, 2012, 01:08:35 AM
I liked 'em until like Dodonpachi era, what came after got just worse and worse. also graphically wise, since they had more and more replaced good old handrawn sprites through pre-render cack.
Otomedius and Death Smiles 2 graphics do not hold me, but Mushi and Mars Matrix do. All four have a pre-rendered look IMO so I do not like to blanket-hate on all "pre-render" style games. I'll take every shooter one at a time, give it the love or hate per game, not per company.
Tats -> What about polygon shooters like Gradius V, Strania or Ikaruga? Still like "hand-drawn" games over those?
As a side note, when we bring cabs to conventions. One of the Wedoca crew is a shump-cave-whore, so having $800-$1500 PCB's up and running is neat. A lot of people have never been able to play some of these titles and to play them on real hardware in real Japanese arcade cabinets does have a appeal if not a novelty.
(I can't fathom folks not playing Spriggan!)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 01:28:27 AM
polygon shooters (and any kind of 2d hand draw replaceed games) are the worst, IMO (style wise). that stuff gives me the absolutely NOTHING.
I, as well do not dislike all kind of pre-render stuff, there was impressive stuff back in the 90s on inferior hardwares (inferior compared to 32-bit or late arcade stuff), like a sapphire or a rendering ranger, I both like very much.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 01, 2012, 02:07:12 AM
Damn it, I've been away from this thread for too long.
Anyway, in Cave games and other bullet hells, how do you determine which pixel is your hit box? Does it glow or stand out in some way? It really should. When I see bullets touch and pass through my ship and I stay alive, I think I must have invincibility turned on or there is a Game Genie plugged in somewhere. It looks like I am cheating if I don't blow up when a bullet hits my ship. I also agree about the over-anime-ized style of these games. I would be interested in games like Otomedius Excellent or whatever the f*ck they're called but unless it is Parodius or Star Parodia I don't want anime characters.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 02:10:30 AM
Anyway, in Cave games and other bullet hells, how do you determine which pixel is your hit box? Does it glow or stand out in some way? It really should. When I see bullets touch and pass through my ship and I stay alive, I think I must have invincibility turned on or there is a Game Genie plugged in somewhere. It looks like I am cheating if I don't blow up when a bullet hits my ship.
Where's your imagination? Those near-hits are bullets whizzing under/over your ship's wings.
The only way to get good at knowing where your hitbox is, is to play the game and get good at it. Why should it spoon-feed you and tell you "awww wittle baby, this is where the bullets can't touch. That's bad touch if it goes there".
Disabled gamers make me LOL.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 02:24:03 AM
It's easy to look really awesome if both the ship and the bullet have a small hitbox! :) Many games with small hitboxes have a little point that glows or changes color when the special weapon is used.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Samurai Ghost on March 01, 2012, 02:25:41 AM
Anyway, in Cave games and other bullet hells, how do you determine which pixel is your hit box? Does it glow or stand out in some way?
Well in Espaluga at least you have some kind of glowing crystal on the character for your hitbox.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 02:38:58 AM
i just think that the whole bullet-sprayer thing escalated many years ago. make it look as hard as possible, but in fact it isn't. But where's the sense? It jsut feels like playing f*ckin' russian roullete.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 02:41:13 AM
It looks pretty and is relaxing. Like watching a fish tank! ;)
Seriously, they are pretty hard. Have you tried to 1CC Mushihimesama, Espgaluda, Ketsui, Deathsmiles, the Dodonpachi-games or other bullet hells like that? It's not as easy as one might think.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 02:53:58 AM
i don't claim that they are a cake walk, but let me tell you this. when i frist watched a guy playing dodonpachi in the arcades back in 1998, i've thougt that this must be the absolut shooter god on earth. but in fact he wasn't, until i tried it out.
in other words, they can be very challanging, especially when you throw in the whole chain system and stuff, but so was an R-Type, 11 years before that. after dodonpachi it went even crazier. when i got my daioujou, i've first thougt this must be a joke.
i don't say that they're easy, they're just different in play mechnism. but how they have developed, i don't really have to like.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 02:57:39 AM
Where's your imagination? Those near-hits are bullets whizzing under/over your ship's wings.
The only way to get good at knowing where your hitbox is, is to play the game and get good at it. Why should it spoon-feed you and tell you "awww wittle baby, this is where the bullets can't touch. That's bad touch if it goes there".
Disabled gamers make me LOL.
Don't make excuses for the genre. The tiny hit box is there for one reason and one reason only: to make it easier to weave around stupid bullet patterns.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 03:00:26 AM
It's only natural to make the hitbox smaller if the players want more and more intricate bullet patterns.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 03:04:18 AM
i don't say that they're easy, they're just different in play mechnism. but how they have developed, i don't really have to like.
Of course not. I'm not trying to change anyones mind - I'm just saying what I think about the games. It more or less comes down to this - if people like to play bullet hell shooters without any dramatical change or innovation, then they should continue to make them. Like everything else pretty much. But I do wish they would stop making the music on MTV....
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 03:06:24 AM
Well hell, why not delete the hit box all together? Think of all the fancy bullet patterns - it'll be like the finest lace, only made of bullets!
Woah, that sounds AWESOME! I would love to try a shooter with no hit box. Make the game more of an experience than a highscore chase... Yeah, I have to think further on this.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 03:07:03 AM
Don't make excuses for the genre. The tiny hit box is there for one reason and one reason only: to make it easier to weave around stupid bullet patterns.
Uh, I'm not making an excuse. That's how I imagine bullet hells while playing them.
ship flying into a hail of gunfire, dancing around, barely squeaking by, while shooting everything down.
Maybe that's how the original bullet hell creators imagined it too.
I like bullet hell games.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: soop on March 01, 2012, 03:08:35 AM
Well, logically speaking, you can only see from one angle.
And there are many games where bosses are invulerable apart from a weak spot. so it makes sense that if you were only gonna make one ship, you'd make it out of the good stuff.
Although I'd fire the designer who makes all the blueprints for these things and insists on including a weakpoint. What a jerk.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 03:11:52 AM
Uh, I'm not making an excuse. That's how I imagine bullet hells while playing them.
ship flying into a hail of gunfire, dancing around, barely squeaking by, while shooting everything down.
Maybe that's how the original bullet hell creators imagined it too.
I'm sure they were thinking it makes total sense to make a ship invulnerable to enemy fire... except in one tiny spot. They probably design Death Stars on weekends too.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 03:19:04 AM
Uh, I'm not making an excuse. That's how I imagine bullet hells while playing them.
ship flying into a hail of gunfire, dancing around, barely squeaking by, while shooting everything down.
Maybe that's how the original bullet hell creators imagined it too.
I'm sure they were thinking it makes total sense to make a ship invulnerable to enemy fire... except in one tiny spot. They probably design Death Stars on weekends too.
Your imagination blows then. :)
It's not your standard shoot em up. It's something different. You're flying into a mess of bullets and dodging them. Consider the bullets "passing through you" as you, the pilot, performing sweet evasive maneuvers and flying up/down/tilting out of the way of the bullets. Near miss excitement.
The other alternative for the imagination impaired would be to let you have your ship go up/down/tilt for real.
I'm sure that would play great as an overhead view game. Definitely.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on March 01, 2012, 03:36:13 AM
Well hell, why not delete the hit box all together?
Give the player score-checkpoints that they have to achieve in order to continue play, and you just might be onto a great new idea. Have to evolve it some more, though.
Anyway, I think the real "curtain-fire" shmups do get dull after a while, but a lot of the bullet heavy shooters from over the years are fairly moderate. Again, I'd encourage anyone to check out Ketsui. It's not for everyone, but IMO it's Cave's finest, and it fits in the "moderate" category.
Oh, and it's interesting to note that while only some games have a highlighted hitbox, some others that don't still include a ship diagram with the hitbox inside the instruction manual and/or on the arcade cabinet inserts (whatever they're called).
A lot of people have disagreed with me on this, but I still say that Sapphire's hitbox being just slightly on the large side is one of the game's only downfalls. Shrink the hitbox by a pixel on each side (you can increase the enemies to balance the difficulty) and make better (and quieter!) sound effects, and the game would be even more of a legend.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 03:39:53 AM
It's not your standard shoot em up. It's something different. You're flying into a mess of bullets and dodging them. Consider the bullets "passing through you" as you, the pilot, performing sweet evasive maneuvers and flying up/down/tilting out of the way of the bullets. Near miss excitement.
The other alternative for the imagination impaired would be to let you have your ship go up/down/tilt for real.
I'm sure that would play great as an overhead view game. Definitely.
"Blah blah blah. I love these games so any and all criticism is 100% crazy talk."
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 04:03:24 AM
"Blah blah blah. I love these games so any and all criticism is 100% crazy talk."
Well, the criticism is "you have a tiny hitbox so you can dodge stupid patterns"... and yeah, that's crazy talk. It means you're missing the point of the game and implying the whole thing is stupid. Why not criticize something else about a bullet hell game, like shit graphics, dumb characters, bland music, boring levels, or something to that extent?
God forbid anyone apply any form of reasoning or imagination to a design element of a genre with something other than "its there so you can easily dodge stupid things"
whats funny though is, usually, when I go on these tirades, at least 1 person always goes "oh hey, you made me see it in a different light! sweet!"
See: China Warrior.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 04:38:02 AM
This is painfully true! I haven't really found a character I like in the genre but as far as music goes I at least found one game that tickled my balls - Espgaluda! Especially from the first stage.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 04:38:53 AM
I think the bullet hell genre really arose as an attempt to show off how many sprites the creators could push around on screen. I think it was initially a contest over who has the biggest penis. More bullets! More explosions! More score multipliers! Look how much CRAP we can throw on the screen and still keep track of!
All about numbers of sprites and collision routines. It grew out of that to become something more than that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it started.
I sometimes find bullet hell games fun, but usually not because they are bullet hell games. I find bullet pattern dodging really frustrating. I mean, no shooter is realistic. The bullets move too slowly and are sprayed out. Bullet hells, however, are even less realistic. I have trouble imagining flying into a hail of fire when the hail of fire makes concentric rings going out in every direction in lace-like patterns. I have no point of connection with that at all. Take something unreal but fun and make it even more crazy and unreal and less fun in the process.
Doujin bullet hells are the worse, though.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 04:49:15 AM
I haven't played so many, but I love eXceed 3rd Jade Penetrate, Mountain of Faith, The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, Perfect Cherry Blossom, Blue Wish Resurrection and Chorensha 68k (those last two are even free to download - hint hint to curious readers). All good fun!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 04:55:09 AM
Chorensha x86 is OK. Hate having anime chicks as bosses. Can't get behind that. I find it very incongruous. I can handle obvious cute 'em ups, but it has to either be that or legit aircraft. The whole anime/manga girl otaku obsession thing kinda bothers me. I spend a year in Japan and have studied the culture extensively, and Japan's acceptance of gender inequality and obsession, not to mention their acceptance of child pornography, is a major problem.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 04:57:19 AM
I agree to 100%, I really hate the themes in many shooters. I usually try to see beyond that and focus on the fun - but yeah, I can really understand why it becomes a no-no.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: RegalSin on March 01, 2012, 05:08:57 AM
While something is in 2d, it resides in a 3d world. The television is really a seeing ball into another world, where you think you are controlling the player, but it is just you weilding it from afar. Each time you turn it off, that universe is colliding into a time warp that lasts forever. Controlled by you. Like a comic book, you can flip to any point in time, just by turning a page. Thus the bullet might pass the ship.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 05:09:56 AM
We're talking about spaceships, robots, flying females, boobs, and all kinds of other weird shit. What part of that implies you can't have an enemy shooting concentric circles of bullets all over the place.
I don't think bullet hells started as an e-penis kind of thing. That's an American concept. I think Japan was just looking for something beyond the usual shooter challenges.
The games usually require some finesse. It's a different mindset requirement than something like Final Soldier, etc.
What's wrong with female bosses? They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?
euhhh
also: FFS, even regal sin gets it.
Hasn't anyone else ever watched a cartoon where the heroic pilot flies through a hail of gunfire, spiraling through all the bullets as they barely miss the ship?
If Soldier Blade, etc were drawn as a cartoon, wouldn't you find it retarded to see no near-miss encounters? Fights where all the bullets either pass to the left or the right. Never above or below, and never too close for comfort?
It would look dumb.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on March 01, 2012, 05:10:24 AM
I think the bullet hell genre really arose as an attempt to show off how many sprites the creators could push around on screen. I think it was initially a contest over who has the biggest penis. More bullets! More explosions! More score multipliers! Look how much CRAP we can throw on the screen and still keep track of!
All about numbers of sprites and collision routines. It grew out of that to become something more than that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it started.
That's kind of a pessimistic way of putting it.
The programmer/designer of Dodonpachi and head of Cave, Tsuneki Ikeda, has said that he was simply inspired by Battle Garegga, which arguably doesn't even qualify as a bullet-hell game. He said the in particular blew his mind, and he tried to outdo it in Dodonpachi. Granted, he also said he compared screenshots and tried to use twice the bullets, but that still doesn't make the design totally superficial. I think they just wanted to experiment and try new things.
I really love how you can say that shmups are about the oldest game genre in existence today, and yet they keep evolving.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 05:15:26 AM
What's wrong with female bosses? They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?
euhhh
I like the bosses in the Mushihimesama- and Deathsmiles-games, there's good examples of fun bosses. But then they f*ck it up by making the player character a pair of talking tits, more or less.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on March 01, 2012, 05:20:29 AM
What's wrong with female bosses? They have to be big burly dudes for it to be legit?
euhhh
I like the bosses in the Mushihimesama- and Deathsmiles-games, there's good examples of fun bosses. But then they f*ck it up by making the player character a pair of talking tits, more or less.
Indeed, a lot of the sexy anime girls are there for the sake of being sexy anime girls, not because they are a good fit into the whole design aesthetic.
Don't get me wrong, I love tits as much as the next guy, but there is such a thing as out-of-place tits.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 06:23:49 AM
I don't have a problem with female characters. One of the pilots in Darius is a girl. I just don't like the whole anime tit-chick as a boss thing, in part because it is incongruous. The anime chicks fit in just fine in Parodius, but in a lot of other places it is just crazy. Parodius is by nature a parody. But the doujin bullet hell shooters where you are fighting a boss who IS an over-boobed 14-year-old, making semi-sexual moans when she gets hit, that's not only a stupid theme but a really good example of one of Japan's major cultural problems, one that the nation really refuses to come to terms with.
And yeah, I have problems with bullet patterns. Ideally, boss attacks should react to player actions, not be fully scripted, and again, I know it's artificial and there is some suspension of disbelief, but the bullet patterns are so disconnected from anything that makes sense that I have trouble reconciling it. I mean, I'm OK with a boss in a typical shooter who goes into a patter briefly to fire some beam cannons straight down the screen, but usually that character is otherwise aiming at the player with single shots or spreads. Having this really slow, floaty pretzel of bullets all over the place does not at all make me imagine a craft screaming through a hail of bullets. Instead, it makes me wonder why on earth these balls of feathers are deadly.
Sometimes a game pulls it off for me. I don't hate all bullet hell games. Some of them manage to be awesome. But generally, I prefer the kind of challenge R-Type brings to the table. R-Type is just as hard as any bullet hell I've played, and it does it by being devious rather than filling up the screen with projectiles.
And while the e-penis thing surely isn't the only reason for the origins of the bullet hell genre, I'm pretty sure it played a big role. Whenever "bigger is better" or "more is better" enters the picture, you know there's some penis behind it somewhere.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 06:40:48 AM
I don't have a problem with female characters. One of the pilots in Darius is a girl. I just don't like the whole anime tit-chick as a boss thing, in part because it is incongruous. The anime chicks fit in just fine in Parodius, but in a lot of other places it is just crazy. Parodius is by nature a parody. But the doujin bullet hell shooters where you are fighting a boss who IS an over-boobed 14-year-old, making semi-sexual moans when she gets hit, that's not only a stupid theme but
So? Don't play them then. It's like complaining that you don't like all the dicks in a gay porn. Stop watching it.
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a really good example of one of Japan's major cultural problems, one that the nation really refuses to come to terms with.
And yet they're still a better country than the US.
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And yeah, I have problems with bullet patterns. Ideally, boss attacks should react to player actions, not be fully scripted, and again, I know it's artificial and there is some suspension of disbelief, but the bullet patterns are so disconnected from anything that makes sense that I have trouble reconciling it. I mean, I'm OK with a boss in a typical shooter who goes into a patter briefly to fire some beam cannons straight down the screen, but usually that character is otherwise aiming at the player with single shots or spreads. Having this really slow, floaty pretzel of bullets all over the place does not at all make me imagine a craft screaming through a hail of bullets. Instead, it makes me wonder why on earth these balls of feathers are deadly.
Most bosses in most games from this era, follow patterns. Even when they aim and shoot at you, it's still a pattern. That's just as predictable as a pattern of bullets. OH IM FLYING TO THE RIGHT, HES GOING TO SHOOT TO THE RIGHT NOW.
Hell half the time the boss is moving in some goony pattern anyways.
Bullet hells are just a different kind of shooter. It's sort of pointless to fault them for their biggest feature. Next we're going to say baseball games are pointless because you have to hit a ball with a bat.
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R-Type is just as hard as any bullet hell I've played, and it does it by being devious rather than filling up the screen with projectiles.
and, RType is not without problems either. If you lose your powerups, you might as well hit reset.
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And while the e-penis thing surely isn't the only reason for the origins of the bullet hell genre, I'm pretty sure it played a big role. Whenever "bigger is better" or "more is better" enters the picture, you know there's some penis behind it somewhere.
This is nonsense. You're holding everything to the American view of bigger is better. I'm fairly certain this is more of an artistic movement than a HUHAHAUHUHUH WE GOT MORE SHIT THAN YOUR CRAPPY GAME. LOOK AT ALL THIS STUFF OMG WE WIN.
That explains why the bullet patterns have neat looking designs
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 06:53:49 AM
Well, the criticism is "you have a tiny hitbox so you can dodge stupid patterns"... and yeah, that's crazy talk.
Okay, delete the word 'stupid': the only reason they use a one pixel hit box is to make tighter bullet patterns. Period. You ascribing it to the designers trying to add 3D gameplay elements (automagic controls that you can't see or command) to a 2D game is nothing but horseshit.
It means you're missing the point of the game and implying the whole thing is stupid.
I implied no such thing; it's just the bullet spraying that I find stupid. I'd find it much more interesting if the enemies would actually aim rather than spewing out the same spread of bullets no matter where you are.
God forbid anyone apply any form of reasoning or imagination to a design element of a genre with something other than "its there so you can easily dodge stupid things"
God forbid someone use logic instead of pulling shit out of their ass and calling it 'imagination'.
Bullet hells are just a different kind of shooter. It's sort of pointless to fault them for their biggest feature. Next we're going to say baseball games are pointless because you have to hit a ball with a bat.
Yeah, Spenoza: never discuss an aspect of a game you don't particularly like - just don't play it and keep your mouth shut!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 07:08:04 AM
I am merely explaining why *I* am not a fan of bullet hell games. My explanations are my rationale. They do not have to be your rationale. You'll just have to get over it, Arkhan. As far as I'm concerned, my reasons are good ones.
And no, Japan is not necessarily a better place to live than the US. I spent some quality time there. Mostly, it is just different. I get pissed off at the US all the time these days, what with much of the politics and recent laws and legislation, but Japan is no better, just different. Japan's problem with the sexualization of young girls and lack of laws to really address child pornography IS a major problem, and that's something that is widely recognized.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 07:13:51 AM
Okay, delete the word 'stupid': the only reason they use a one pixel hit box is to make tighter bullet patterns. Period. You ascribing it to the designers trying to add 3D gameplay elements (automagic controls that you can't see or command) to a 2D game is nothing but horseshit.
Yeah, it's horse shit that they may have been trying to create a different kind of high-thrills shooting immersion than the standard shooters. Why look at things from that standpoint. It's all cut and dry. WYSIWYG.
Asteroids isn't you flying through space shooting asteroids down. It's a triangle shooting pellets at jagged circles in a 15" square room.
Defender isn't a ship destroying UFOs and saving humans. It's a doorstop flying around in a black and red box shooting at multicolored blobs while grabbing sticks.
Missile Command isn't you at the controls of a missile defense system. It's you polishing a miniature bowling ball while shooting dots at lines.
The world in all vertical shooters is rectangular. Nothing exists to the left and right. What's behind you is eaten by the planet as you move forward. You can never go back. You can't fly too far left or right because the world is only that wide.
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I implied no such thing; it's just the bullet spraying that I find stupid. I'd find it much more interesting if the enemies would actually aim rather than spewing out the same spread of bullets no matter where you are.
If they just aimed, it'd be like any other non bullet hell shooter. They are shooting a circular pattern of bullets at you, it really wouldn't matter if they aimed at you or not. Saying that the patterns are stupid and that you would rather have aiming means you don't like bullet hells very much.
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God forbid someone use logic instead of pulling shit out of their ass and calling it 'imagination'.
Yeah, imagination applying to video games is horse shit! I forgot. Only logic can be applied to games where there are flying tits and lazers.
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Yeah, Spenoza: never discuss an aspect of a game you don't particularly like - just don't play it and keep your mouth shut!
It's not a specific game here, it's a genre, and the complaints are pretty pointless, only because it's complaining about the obvious.
The tits/female boss stuff is not what I am referring to. I'm referring to complaining about being "unable to reconcile" with bullet patterns in a bullet hell game. It's suffice to say "i don't like bullet hells". Going on about how they make no sense, aren't realistic, or are illogical is pretty dopey.
You don't hear me say
"I don't like driving games because I find it stupid that I have to accelerate the car, and then it's stupid that you skid when you turn too fast, and I really hate that you have to hit the brakes sometimes. The Oil slicks are stupid too. All the bikini girls on the side of the road are pointless. I can't reconcile with the fact that there is a time limit. Why am I timed while I cruise down the street? That's not how it works in the real world"
I just say "I don't like driving games". The rest is implied, and it would be stupid to argue or complain about it, since it is obvious, genre defining stuff.
If it were specific aspects of a specific game, it'd be different. When we start getting into cultural analysis nonsense, and all kinds of other superficial shit, I start to wonder wtf we are even talking about anymore. Are we talking about a game, or panties in a vending machine and kiddie porn.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 07:19:49 AM
The tits/female boss stuff is not what I am referring to. I'm referring to complaining about being "unable to reconcile" with bullet patterns in a bullet hell game. It's suffice to say "i don't like bullet hells". Going on about how they make no sense, aren't realistic, or are illogical is pretty dopey.
Yeah, heaven forbid I talk specifically about WHY I don't like something! The particular aspects I pointed out are aspects of the genre I have trouble suspending disbelief over. That's all. There's nothing "illogical" or "dopey" about my complaints. You just don't like them because you clearly disagree. It's really stupid and pointless when you try to invalidate the opinions of others just because you don't feel the same way.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 07:44:12 AM
Yeah, heaven forbid I talk specifically about WHY I don't like something! The particular aspects I pointed out are aspects of the genre I have trouble suspending disbelief over. That's all. There's nothing "illogical" or "dopey" about my complaints. You just don't like them because you clearly disagree. It's really stupid and pointless when you try to invalidate the opinions of others just because you don't feel the same way.
I'm not trying to invalidate your opinions. I just see no point to complaining about bullet patterns in bullet hells as reason to not like them, especially when the reasoning becomes textbook analytical.
also, you just called my opinion of your opinion stupid and pointless. How dare you.
also I didn't say you were being illogical. Read it again.
I'm convinced people like to immediately hit the "Arkhan's being an obnoxious jackass" button without stopping to get the point. It sounds like you may have misread my post and jumped on the turbodefensive. Plus your reasoning and opinion on bullet hell games has changed. First you said they arose as e-penis nonsense, then you changed your tune a bit, then you brought up cultural shit, and then you said you only like cute em ups or legit aircrafts. Most shooters aren't legit aircrafts. Make up your mind. What's the real reason you don't like bullet hells?
Is it that you hate dodging pretzelpatterns, the Japanese girl/kidporn culture is evil, its not legit/realistic enough for your analytical side, or what?
f*ck it though. Proceed with the lengthy, analytical discussions of why bullet patterns make you not like bullet hells because it's not realistic and you don't like lace patterns. IDGAF. Arguing about it is more pointless than saying you don't like it because its being itself.
I hate sports games because you have to do sports. Sports are stupid and I don't like them because sport culture is wrong.
EDIT: I added shit and some of your imaginations suck.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 07:57:26 AM
I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it. I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups. They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?
I don't really feel like the PCE shmups become obsolete because I have played games within the genre on stronger consoles. In the same vein I don't find PS1-games dated just because I play PS2 and PS3 and so on. It's just different, and I love variety. :)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 08:22:05 AM
Yeah, it's horse shit that they may have been trying to create a different kind of high-thrills shooting immersion than the standard shooters. Why look at things from that standpoint. It's all cut and dry. WYSIWYG.
What's horseshit is your belief that all bullet hells have one-pixel hit boxes. A bullet hell is different from standard shooters because of the maze of bullets, not because the maze of bullets is so tight the hit box must be shrunk to nothing.
Asteroids isn't you flying through space shooting asteroids down. It's a triangle shooting pellets at jagged circles in a 15" square room.
Defender isn't a ship destroying UFOs and saving humans. It's a doorstop flying around in a black and red box shooting at multicolored blobs while grabbing sticks.
Missile Command isn't you at the controls of a missile defense system. It's you polishing a miniature bowling ball while shooting dots at lines.
What a load. Your 'imagination' of why there's a one pixel hit box isn't at all analogous to using one's imagination to fill in the blanks on graphical representations. Using such logic, it's equally sensible to say that Asteroids is aiming an Egyptian pyramid at the heavens to successfully ascend the pharaoh within; it's all open to the end user's interpretation, right? Whatever I can imagine is law!
If they just aimed, it'd be like any other non bullet hell shooter. They are shooting a circular pattern of bullets at you, it really wouldn't matter if they aimed at you or not. Saying that the patterns are stupid and that you would rather have aiming means you don't like bullet hells very much.
Who says the enemies can't aim and unleash a wild spray of bullets? Look at the old shooters where part of the attack is a generic pattern where you can often find a safe spot to sit, and part of the attack is aimed directly at you (or home in on you) to scare you out of the hidey hole.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 08:28:42 AM
What's horseshit is your belief that all bullet hells have one-pixel hit boxes. A bullet hell is different from standard shooters because of the maze of bullets, not because the maze of bullets is so tight the hit box must be shrunk to nothing.
at what point did I say I believe all bullet hells have 1 pixel hit boxes? I was under the assumption that we were exaggerating that point to make fun of how the hit boxes are pretty loose, like, bullets passing through half your ships wing, etc.
Duhr?
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What a load. Your 'imagination' of why there's a one pixel hit box isn't at all analogous to using one's imagination to fill in the blanks on graphical representations. Using such logic, it's equally sensible to say that Asteroids is aiming an Egyptian pyramid at the heavens to successfully ascend the pharaoh within; it's all open to the end user's interpretation, right? Whatever I can imagine is law!
Yes it is. Imagination and Immersion are a bit universal.
and no you can't imagine that, because the game TELLS you what the game is about. It's called Asteroids, not Egyptoroids.
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Who says the enemies can't aim and unleash a wild spray of bullets? Look at the old shooters where part of the attack is a generic pattern where you can often find a safe spot to sit, and part of the attack is aimed directly at you (or home in on you) to scare you out of the hidey hole.
They could, but then they wouldn't be bullet hell pattern extravaganzas.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Necromancer on March 01, 2012, 09:18:54 AM
and no you can't imagine that, because the game TELLS you what the game is about. It's called Asteroids, not Egyptoroids.
So they are asteroids and not "jagged circles". The artwork clearly shows it's a ship in space blasting away at asteroids and not a triangle in a square room, but who's counting?
They could, but then they wouldn't be bullet hell pattern extravaganzas.
Ummm, okay. That makes zero sense.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 09:44:54 AM
Wow, this is great! We can't even have a reasonable discussion about shooter preferences without Arkhan turning it into an uncomfortable situation, because our opinions have to meet his standards for validity. Woo!
I'm gonna take a break and not feed the troll for a bit.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 10:19:53 AM
If what Arkhan has posted in this thread is trolling then I don't know what isn't. OK, I have not actively participated in your discussion but it seems a bit like you guys go out of your way to misunderstand him. Should we try and get back to the subject without any further pointless arguments? Or maybe it's just too fun to let it be? :)
As I said regarding to the question at hand, I like variety and find that I appreciate games in a whole new way if I know about more kinds of games. Someone once told me, when I asked him how he had the patience to play (and beat) countless old arcade games, most of which he really didn't like (he reviewed them all afterwards), that the more you learn and experience in games - the more you appreciate the good aspects of games you try later. It's almost like... you know, that saying, "you can't appreciate the good without the bad". This together with my fascination for games no matter if they are technically impressive or just addicting in their own simple way makes me play and enjoy PC Engine-shooters.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 10:47:34 AM
Starfighter, Arkhan is a polarizing figure here in most aspects. I'm just short of patience today and not in the mood to deal with his argumentative bullshit. He's also not performing at his peak level of annoyance.
I do agree that when you spend more time with a single game you can often enjoy it more. When I first had my Turbo and Keith Courage was the only game I had, I played the hell out of it and I enjoyed it. Now I'm not especially fond of the game, because there's other stuff I like a lot more, but at the time, it was certainly fun enough, though even then I was really itching for something better.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on March 01, 2012, 10:59:40 AM
Are there any shooters on the PCE that the AI improves the better you do (points, power ups, no deaths etc)? I know Battle Garegga and Layer Section do this.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 11:11:00 AM
Good question. While I don't have a clue, I do remember that I played a shooter, kind of on the abstract side visually, on PC that was basically just a long boss rush that even adapted itself to how the player destroyed the previous boss. So on paper the next boss would be prepared for you if you went about killing it the same way. I didn't really feel any difference when I changed my tactic but at least it was an interesting concept!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: bust3dstr8 on March 01, 2012, 11:26:49 AM
Are there any shooters on the PCE that the AI improves the better you do (points, power ups, no deaths etc)? I know Battle Garegga and Layer Section do this.
Final Blaster is the only game I can think of with rank.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 11:37:33 AM
They're asteroids because you've been told they are. But, it's up to you to imagine the epic battle taking place.
There was this article about imaginations + games, that I wish I could find. It was basically about young kids playing Atari 2600 and not giving a f*ck that it looks retarded.
yeah it does! Wild sprays of bullets != bullet pattern doom.
Spenoza, it's not about validity. Your opinion is fine, I don't really give a f*ck about validity. Everyone's opinion is fine.
I have a tendency to argue my point in an abrasive, "f*ck this shit" manner that makes it seem like I'm basically trying to denounce everyone else's opinion as wrong.
My point is, I don't see the point in griping about the key aspect of a genre. It'd be like saying you hate fighting games because you have to punch and kick and do combos. It's like a generalized, blanket statement that screams out "uhhhh, duhhhhh?".
I'm sure the OTHER reasons you don't like bullet hells are far more important in deciding whether or not you like them. The ONLY thing I am flailing about is whining about the bullet patterns in all of their unrealisticness.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 11:40:20 AM
Are there any shooters on the PCE that the AI improves the better you do (points, power ups, no deaths etc)? I know Battle Garegga and Layer Section do this.
X.E.V.I.O.U.S does.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on March 01, 2012, 11:48:11 AM
I better check Final Blaster & Xevious out, thanks! :D
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: nectarsis on March 01, 2012, 11:52:32 AM
Are there any shooters on the PCE that the AI improves the better you do (points, power ups, no deaths etc)? I know Battle Garegga and Layer Section do this.
X.E.V.I.O.U.S does.
What MORE sheets of drywall, and doughnuts?? :P DENY X.E.V.I.O.U.S ;)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 12:00:30 PM
What MORE sheets of drywall, and doughnuts?? :P DENY X.E.V.I.O.U.S ;)
You never can have nuff of teh doughnuts :P
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on March 01, 2012, 12:07:58 PM
Is it me or has this topic brought out the magic in shooters that gamers love. Man, OK... ahem I've had a few 8-[ who wants to do a top ten shooters of all time list? :-$ it will be our secret.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: spenoza on March 01, 2012, 01:14:54 PM
Of all time? Not just PCE?
I can betcha a lot of us will have very different-looking lists.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2012, 02:36:36 PM
Top 10 of all time? ------------------ Tempest Defender Starship Hector Final Soldier Psychosis this is hard f*ck it
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: nodtveidt on March 01, 2012, 02:46:27 PM
I hate sports games because you have to do sports. Sports are stupid and I don't like them because sport culture is wrong.
^^^ this.
Oh, and I love bullet hell shooters, especially the really manic ones.
I generally agree, but we have define which kind of sports we're talking about. there is wrong and boring sports and there is right and funny sports (and some stuff between the both).
wrong stuff -> boring team stuff 'n' shit right stuff -> alone fighter stuff
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: nodtveidt on March 01, 2012, 02:58:31 PM
I'd love a sports game based entirely on judo. That'd bore the shit outta most people I guess, but f*ck that, I love judo.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 03:02:44 PM
I'd love a sports game based entirely on judo. That'd bore the shit outta most people I guess, but f*ck that, I love judo.
Try Yawara 2 then ;)
Quote
The first Yawara! game was a digital comic; this one has more game elements, as we can play a quiz game, or participate in a slow-moving, serious round of judo:
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: dq333 on March 01, 2012, 03:34:47 PM
Yes it is f*ck hard.... blame the drink.
1. Layer Section 2. Radiant Silvergun 3. Battle Garegga 4. R-Type 5. Gunhed 6. Blazing Star 7. Gradius V 8. Super Star Soldier 9. Soldier Blade 10. Rtype III
Wait there's more and this list isnt accurate...... =;
I've been playing Violent Soldier and it's dope!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: SamIAm on March 01, 2012, 05:50:45 PM
This is just my personal list: 1. Radiant Silvergun 2. Battle Garegga 3. Super Aleste 4. Lords of Thunder 5. Ketsui 6. Blazing Star 7. Cotton 2 8. Soldier Blade 9. Armed Police Batrider 10. Zeroigar!!
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 09:16:17 PM
Armed Police Batrider is sweet! Super Aleste would be on my list if it didn't have so long and boring levels.
My list looks like this, starting from the 10th place going up:
10. 9. 8. 7. 6. 5. 4. 3. 2. 1.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: bust3dstr8 on March 01, 2012, 10:36:42 PM
#1 The Raiden Fighters series. Pick one....any one. 8)
The Rest....
Thunderforce III Tatsujin Oh 19XX Blazing Star Gunhed Galaga Giga Wang Gunbird 2 Einhander
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 01, 2012, 11:38:07 PM
#1 The Raiden Fighters series. Pick one....any one. 8)
Dude, you have no idea how long I've been waiting for the 360-port! (Raiden Fighters Aces) I made a reservation for the european version that was supposed to come out shortly after the american one back in 2009... It's still "TBA".
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2012, 11:49:23 PM
Not listing GoT is considered a crime :idea:
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 02, 2012, 12:24:27 AM
Lot's of things I do are considered crimes. ;)
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 02, 2012, 12:28:14 AM
Does Insanity count as a shooter? I pick that.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 02, 2012, 12:32:49 AM
I picked up Insanity X on XBLA last week or something. It was very addicting!
DUDE!!! \o/ 5 star it so i get f*cking ratings.
Noone can see the game unless its like 4 stars or better. Push me past the 3.5 mark GOGOGOGO!
they jacked the menu up so most people sort by most downloaded, or highest ratings.
They should just randomly put 10 games on the main screen and go hey get this.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Obfuscate on March 02, 2012, 12:45:39 AM
Yeah, Top 10!
1.) Soldier Blade 2.) Lords of Thunder 3.) Gate of Thunder 4.) Thunder Force 3 5.) Nexzr 6.) Cotton 7.) Rayxanber 2 8.) Sapphire 9.) Spriggan 10.) Air Zonk
Hmm.. I must have a bias! Also, M.U.S.H.A I actually don't like and Axeley is good but doesn't make my top 10. Don't have any experiance with Saturn shooters and dislike PS1 shooters for the most part. PC Engine and 16 bit shooter era games are my favorite by far.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 02, 2012, 12:47:37 AM
Done. Or at least I think so. I had the choise to rise the stars to five, but then I didn't get a "confirm-button" or anything like that so I'm not sure it was registered.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Tatsujin on March 02, 2012, 12:53:17 AM
Done. Or at least I think so. I had the choise to rise the stars to five, but then I didn't get a "confirm-button" or anything like that so I'm not sure it was registered.
yeah, I noticed that too. I think it just confirms it when you stop touching it, lol. I hope.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Arkhan on March 02, 2012, 01:02:58 AM
http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/Insanity-X/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d8025855088f?cid=SLink you can also sign in here,and rate it instead.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: majors on March 02, 2012, 01:19:54 AM
when i got my daioujou, i've first thougt this must be a joke.
True. When I played the Saturn DonPachi for the first time, my jaw dropped. When I played the 2nd go-round (after beating it), I had to call the dentist.
Are there any shooters on the PCE that the AI improves the better you do (points, power ups, no deaths etc)?
Paodious will give you a differnet stage boss if your doing better (at least on the challenge mode). Sex Parodius have alternate next levels when you achive the current stage goals, but that's not on PCE.
Title: Re: PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...
Post by: Starfighter on March 02, 2012, 01:48:54 AM