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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: soop on March 19, 2012, 04:48:15 AM
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That your CD games might start to break down at some point in your lifetime?
I have fewer CD games than most, and I love Hucards, but for those with a large collection, the thought that at some point, likely within their lifetime, those games will suddenly become unplayable must be chilling.
And the PC Engine, being the first console to have CD games is gonna be the fist one to hit.
I can also see it going 2 ways: Firstly, everyone starts trying to sell off their collection to try and offset the loss, more games on the market and the fact that people know the games are on their last legs means we all get a copy of Dracula X for $5.
Or, the people that take good care of their games wait until they have the only surviving copy of Majong Gakuen Mild, and it's suddenly worth a fortune.
Of course it's not gonna happen quite like that, there are probably games which have been mistreated dying already, but yeah it does worry me.
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I'll bet that the pool of collectors will die before the software does.
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No, I'm not worried about my CDs spontaneously combusting or any such silliness.
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CDS ARE IMMORTAL.
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Properly manufactured CDs that haven't had the shit kicked out of them are more or less eternal. Since PCE games were made well into the CD era and made in Japan, I'm not worried at all. Ditto for HuCards.
There are several types of media I am worried about. Game systems like GBA and Neo Geo Pocket use flash exclusively and...I don't have a lot of faith in flash.
The big one for me though is Laserdisc. Early US releases are already rotting pretty bad. Later US releases are also terrible. For the moment the mid period (maybe 1988-1995) seems fine and pretty much all JP releases as well. The thing is, LDs rot because the glue causes the reflective layer to oxidize. We know this happens very quickly when the disc is a piece of shit from the factory (ie: late period Columbia Tri star or Discovision releases) but we don't yet know if this isn't also happening to EVERY disc, just at a slower rate. Only time will tell. In another 20 years we'll either be fine or completely without any LDs.
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A little off topic however I can concur with Laserdisc rot. I still have around 200 disks in my collection and a lot of these are now showing signs of rot.
For anyone else interested in Laserdic the following site rates the rot chances.
http://www.lddb.com/
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Going back to the OP, no. I think our CDs will be fine if they're treated gently and stored at room temperature. I'm more worried about first-party control pads. I'm seeing the rubber breaking down in a lot of controllers for 8- and 16-bit systems.
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CD's have burn holes in them, that goes threw layers, and layers. The best way to keep your CD games in check is, to keep them in their cases, and not out too long.
I am getting tired of all of this anti-cd and bit-rot nonsense. These are only specs based off production, made to scare the consumer into buying into downloadable content. TAPE is a far better storage material, and long lasting as somebody said in a documentary. We should still be using tape for our Videos, and even videogames as well. Even records are long lasting. They say the same crap about books. I have books from 1940's that I read still, without breaking apart.
Reality check is that most materials made today are crap compared to materials used before. I have been copying CD's for a very long time, and I have noticed ( like coins ) the cds have become very smaller, thiner, and easier to bend.
All of these things they mentions is from mishandling by consumers, and harsh conditions. The entire western society is heavy influenced because of the religious ideas. Like how our weekends surrounds the sabbath, or the idea of new.
My old boss from the first job I got by myself said it best. Maintain, maintain, maintain. By that he means if you take care of something it will
last a real long time. That is all anybody has to do with anything. So stop worrying.
Just worry about how future generations are going to be sports playing arseholes who spends their free time trying to slove the worlds problems, working on vehicals, and flying machines. The least amount of entertainment they will have is teather and crap Wii virtual.
If it wasn't for the whale eating Nipponese, being creative. that is how the entire world would have been like. Stuck in the atari generation forever.
Another thing to think about his how all of the early products ( even during the 1980's ) was made to last, and be used for a very very long time. There are transforming chairs from the 1800's that still works the same as they did when they were new. Swords and guns that are constantly kept in shape, passed down from generation of warhawk, to generation of enthusiast.
So stop worrying. If you are so worried then write to the makers of the games to make a second release, for the system. For collecting purposes.
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A lot of CDs manufactured in the early to mid-90's also have an increased chance of oxidation (aka CD rot) due to poor quality pressing. I have a Dream Theater CD on which I can no longer play the outer-most song. If PCE CDs used poor pressing houses those problems could exist for them.
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I've never had a professional pressed CD succumb to any sort of degradation or breakdown. On the other hand, most CDRs that I burned 12-15 years ago have started to deteriorate with what looks like small, pinhead sized burns in the reflective layer. I keep all my CDs (CDRs included) stored away and clean, so I can only assume what's happening with my old CDRs is some kind of natural process.
The professionally pressed CDs I own from 20-25 years ago still look and play as if they were brand new, though. I have always (and will continue to) live under the assumption that all my music and video game discs will long outlive me, unless I start seeing evidence to the contrary.
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Japan doesn't use poor pressing houses. Lets be realistic here.
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I've had one bad CD ever. It was Information Society's "Hack". Thats it though. I have a SHITLOAD of CDs, btw, going back to 86/87, something like that.
I've recently been watching a lot of my Laserdisc collection and I have almost no rot. My copy of The Jerk is really bad. It actually locks up in my newest player. I also have two discs purchased recently, Super Atragon and Crusher Joe, US versions, that have minor rot. One of these is from ADV (virtually every LD they released is rotted). The other is from Animeigo, although a later release. None of my imports, the bulk of my collection, are rotted. My oldest Japanese LD is Unico and the Island of Magic. I'm actually not sure when it was pressed. It I think it was around 1985. There is a problem with very bright areas that looks like rot, but this only happens in my old player which might just have a weak laser or something. There is no sign of this problem in my newer player.
The reason why LDs rot is because they are two discs glued together and the glue oxidizes the alluminum. If your LD is going to rot it was decided when it was (poorly) made. There is nothing you can do to stop it. CDs aren't made this way though they just laquer over the alluminum so this problem is non-existent on quality pressings. Similarly single platter LDs (8" and CDVs) don't rot. Well, that's not %100 true. A lot of Euro CDVs (maybe all of them) rot, but that's because they were produced by a half-assed factory. In fact, I think all Euro CDVs were made in the same facility.
There are no "holes burned" into standard CDs. The only burning is on the master. The production discs are stamped and then coated with two layers. Also, CDs aren't thinner than they used to be, you're just thicker.
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Old floppy disk games are my worry. I have a few dead MSX 3.5 and X68k 5.25 disks. I've never had a dead FDS game yet though, knock on wood.
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That's true. We've reached a point in time where floppies are starting to drop like flies. Some of these things were manufactured as far back as like 1980, in certain cases it's amazing they still work at all. I have lots of 5.25" Apple // disks and a good number of them are no longer any good.
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I've personally bought two copies of Cosmic Fantasy 1 that had "CD rot". You can see what looks like a water stain if you hold them up at the right angle. It's not the same as Laser Disks, but it does happen to poorly made disks.
But besides that, I really do worry about all of my CDs. It's not that they're going to deteriorate, but rather that they can be destroyed with a single accident. It only takes one deep scratch to kill them. People with children be afraid!!
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not too worried about cds, but I will agree my floppy disk games do concern me.
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My Dragon's Lair CD for the Sega CD is already exhibiting this "rot." It still plays though, but you can't watch the intro without it completely locking up, its even got a tiny hole towards the middle near the center. I guess Sega CD games will be the first to go if thats the case.
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I have a ridiculous amount of music on CD's and vinyl...both have been reliable, but CD's are maintenance free (thank goodness).
I do worry about the hardware (phonograph, CD player) breaking down (my tape deck died long before my cassettes, for example). I've experienced my share of mechanical problems over the past 30 years...mostly CD players and tape decks breaking down...
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I've personally bought two copies of Cosmic Fantasy 1 that had "CD rot". You can see what looks like a water stain if you hold them up at the right angle. It's not the same as Laser Disks, but it does happen to poorly made disks.
Do this actually affect reading the disk though? I ask because discoloration of the aluminum layer is not uncommon and usually has no negative affect.
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I've personally bought two copies of Cosmic Fantasy 1 that had "CD rot". You can see what looks like a water stain if you hold them up at the right angle. It's not the same as Laser Disks, but it does happen to poorly made disks.
Do this actually affect reading the disk though? I ask because discoloration of the aluminum layer is not uncommon and usually has no negative affect.
Yes. One of them takes 5 times as long to load new areas, and the other gets stuck loading the intro video. The disks are physically OK, except for the discoloration.
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Cosmic Fantasy is a new kind of game, for a new kinda system. Earlier CD games all had thing like that, you described. I play it, and sometimes it appears to be locked up when loading a fight scene. The same could be said for some Hu-card games. That is how all videogames were.
Don't think about all of these theories about CD-rot. Also Floppy disks all can work great forever, if you take care of where you insert the disk. The same with tape.
Think about like this, if I left an egg outside a fridge would it spoil?
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Think about like this, if I left an egg outside a fridge would it spoil?
I'm not sure what you mean here.
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Nobody does.
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Nobody does.
Nobody ever will… (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png).
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Nobody does.
Nobody ever will… (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png).
...nor should.
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That's true. We've reached a point in time where floppies are starting to drop like flies. Some of these things were manufactured as far back as like 1980, in certain cases it's amazing they still work at all. I have lots of 5.25" Apple // disks and a good number of them are no longer any good.
as long as the labels are still intact!
add a notch, write that shit back, rejoice!
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That's true. We've reached a point in time where floppies are starting to drop like flies. Some of these things were manufactured as far back as like 1980, in certain cases it's amazing they still work at all. I have lots of 5.25" Apple // disks and a good number of them are no longer any good.
as long as the labels are still intact!
add a notch, write that shit back, rejoice!
That doesn't always work. Sometimes the medium inside the floppy casing loses its ability to hold a magnetic charge and no longer able to read and write data. Happened to my lovely original Ultima I PC game. Still hold onto it, the box and all the goodies inside (the coins in the pouch are sweet) because I can't bare to part with it. :cry:
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Think about like this, if I left an egg outside a fridge would it spoil?
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I assumed that he was saying that if something is not cared for, it is more likely degrade or expire.
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Think about like this, if I left an egg outside a fridge would it spoil?
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I assumed that he was saying that if something is not cared for, it is more likely degrade or expire.
I thought that too, but it implies that as long as eggs are refrigerated, they last forever?
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I have a CD with actual edge oxidation. It looks like a jagged brown edge around the disc working its way in. I only have one that suffers from that problem, thankfully. CDs are more sensitive to physical damage than, say, LDs or DVDs, however. DVDs and LDs have a plastic layer on both sides, but not CDs. CDs have a plastic layer on bottom, but on top there's just the material of the label and some sealant. If you get a scratch on the bottom of your CD, as long as it isn't too deep you can polish it out. Deep scratches might be fixable with a kind of filler. If you scratch the top of the CD, however, you are extremely likely to damage the data substrate, because there's so little protecting it from the top. I had to pass on a great deal on SamSho 4 on the Saturn because there was a small scratch on the top of the CD that clearly penetrated the data substrate.
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See, I would say that's such a MASSIVE design flaw, they could just have sandwiched the disc on both sides with plastic, even if the top was a little thinner.
I expect the reality is, they decided to build in a little fragility.
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When CD was invented people were a LOT more careful with their media. If you aren't a slob they last forever.
As for LDs...they do have "two bottoms" but if you get ANY sort of shmutz or streaks or dust or anything on them it will be viewable since its fully analog with no error correction. CDs are far more resilient to minor lack of care.
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Japan doesn't use poor pressing houses. Lets be realistic here.
The Nipponese also believes that if you take care of something for over 100 years it will come to life and most likely turn into a raccon, dog, or
an raccon dog.
In the west we have the ole motto of, abandoning our personal belongings, shaving our heads, and lighting candles. In order to walk with god. It is not a cult or anything, but you have to give up all wordly possesions at some point in your life, if you want to hang with the G-man. At least that is the rumor in the west. Tho shall not own belongings that will/can rust or mold?
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I still remember the first time I burned a CDR, and then I wrote on it with a ballpoint pen. s-m-r-t
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Some CDRs have a thicker upper layer which is meant to be written on with harder instruments, but not many.
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Archive every CD for the future. Every CD for the system uncompressed should take up only around 500GB. Maybe someday someone will find a way to replace the CD drive in the Duo with an HD. :)
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It sounds like maybe the more cheaply sourced discs might be effected. Maybe the American pressings will start rotting, or the Working Designs games.
Personally I'm not worried about it, as I barely have any of my discs anymore, and I don't actually collect the originals for Turbo/PCE anymore.
But the sad thing is you can't just repair a rotting disc. At least I don't think so. So at some point, probably near the end of most of our lives, a number of CD games out there, and other formats too, may have bitten the dust.
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Archive every CD for the future. Every CD for the system uncompressed should take up only around 500GB. Maybe someday someone will find a way to replace the CD drive in the Duo with an HD. :)
cant be that hard to do something along those lines. I mean, the C64 and MSX both have shit that lets you host stuff directly over from a f*ckin computer.
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But the sad thing is you can't just repair a rotting disc. At least I don't think so. So at some point, probably near the end of most of our lives, a number of CD games out there, and other formats too, may have bitten the dust.
I guess as long as this stuff outlives me I'd be happy with just that. While I'd like to think that it can all last long enough for future generations to play and enjoy... lets be real here. Everything decays and eventually wastes away. How many childhood toys of our grandparent's generation are still around? Yeah some people may have a few toy cars or something, but all in all there probably isnt a whole lot of the stuff from that time period left. In 50 years, I suspect a lot of the retrogaming stuff we all enjoy will no longer function. Eventually this stuff fails, and as we've already learned, replacement / substitute parts aren't always going to be available. Its a sad truth that we have to accept.
This stuff is already 20 - 25 years old in many cases. Already we are seeing an elevated failure rate amongst hardware, and with software starting to show signs of deteriorization, what can we expect to see in another 25 years?
So my hope is that I can enjoy this stuff for as long as possible and when it fails beyond reasonable repair, I'll have to let it go at that. We will have the memories, and hopefully authentic enough emulation to keep the dream alive for us and future generations.
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Archive every CD for the future. Every CD for the system uncompressed should take up only around 500GB. Maybe someday someone will find a way to replace the CD drive in the Duo with an HD. :)
Well, here's an idea; you could just cram a PSP and a 64gb card in a PC Engine case and have composite out, and a PC engine emulator. In fact... you could stick a USB host hard drive in there too, but the interface would be ugly.
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emulation one day probably will become a part of my life, but i still will have my physical medias next to it, even it doesn't work anymore. it's kinda like the unopened and expired canned tunna. it might become a huge collectors item in distant future, even noone can taste it anymore.
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Well, here's an idea; you could just cram a PSP and a 64gb card in a PC Engine case and have composite out, and a PC engine emulator.
No, that is a totally different idea than an HD. I'm talking about archiving and playing in the future, I don't care about the media so much as the 1s and 0s of the data and the actual hardware.
Hell I don't care about the media now. People making homebrew HuCards are fine with me. I think it's great and have no problem playing games from Homebrew Hueys or burned CD-R anymore than I would from a harddrive on original hardware.
(This is not to say I don't like emulation it has it place as well, but that is a different idea from this.)
The convenience of an emulator, but the fun of the actual hardware. Best of both worlds. :)
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… it's kinda like the unopened and expired canned tunna. it might become a huge collectors item in distant future, even noone can taste it anymore.
You had me at "tuna"... (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
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All you guys are wrong who talks against Decay and all of that paranoid nonsense. The world is not going to end, the world will continue for a very, very long time. So please stop talking insanity. They only bring up that crap because most consumers do not take care of their stuff at all. I use my PCE to listen to music cd's as well. I have been buying music cd's lately as of the result of owning a PCE.
Great a whole lot of us, are going to deal with crap, and some of us will not. The PCE is the sweet 2d bliss and that is all I will remember. It was ten times better then a whole bunch of game systems
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Well, here's an idea; you could just cram a PSP and a 64gb card in a PC Engine case and have composite out, and a PC engine emulator.
No, that is a totally different idea than an HD. I'm talking about archiving and playing in the future, I don't care about the media so much as the 1s and 0s of the data and the actual hardware.
Well, that's no problem then. Every PCE game was ISOed/dumped years ago.