PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: spenoza on March 25, 2012, 11:33:05 AM
Title: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: spenoza on March 25, 2012, 11:33:05 AM
OK, so you know the crappy electric guitar samples they used a lot on Amiga and SNES (think Mega Man X), and they try to approximate using FM synth on the Mega Drive? Well, are there any PC Engine PSG tracks (not CD, cause that's easy, yo) that attempt to in some way approximate electric guitar? What's your favorite and do you like how they do it?
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: nat on March 25, 2012, 11:36:00 AM
Whenever someone mentions "fake electric guitar" the one piece of music I always think of is this one track in Dungeon Explorer where they use some sort of synth PSG instrument to approximate a "guitar" solo. And yeah, I love it.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 25, 2012, 11:58:16 AM
Devil's Crush. The leads in that sound wicked and are obviously guitar.
Any PSG guitar style shit is better than that sampled pretend guitar bullshit
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 25, 2012, 11:59:57 AM
Fake guitar sounds better on the PCE than it does on the Genesis or SNES. The SNES Capcom guitars sound REALLY bad (UN Squadron is almost unlistenable for me). Some Genesis guitars sound like a kazoo. There are good examples on both systems, though, like Super Off Road on SNES and Thunder Force IV (kind of) on the Genesis. But maybe the PCE sounds more pleasant because it isn't as harsh or as muffled.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Black Tiger on March 25, 2012, 12:27:21 PM
For me, the sound used doesn't make a part of a PCE PSG track feel like guitar music as much as the composition performance.
Neutopia's final boss music has a system genetated sound that is a pretty good aproximation of distorted guitar.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 25, 2012, 01:19:56 PM
Fake guitar sounds better on the PCE than it does on the Genesis or SNES. The SNES Capcom guitars sound REALLY bad (UN Squadron is almost unlistenable for me).
Ken's theme in Super SFII for SNES is pretty awesome.
KEN! (http://)
I agree that most were bad though. It was basically a fad that worked really well in the arcade (Sega, SNK, Capcom) but not so great at home with lower spec stuff.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 25, 2012, 03:28:30 PM
They improved a bit for Street Fighter 2 but it still has that unappealing GWAAH GWAAH sound.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: RyuHayabusa on March 25, 2012, 04:19:58 PM
Here's a kickass example of SNES synth guitar, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest - Doom Castle theme.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 25, 2012, 04:36:20 PM
Eh. Super Off Road sounds better. Many Genesis games with fake guitars sound better.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: RyuHayabusa on March 25, 2012, 05:04:18 PM
Eh. Super Off Road sounds better. Many Genesis games with fake guitars sound better.
Name a few. I've never been much of a fan of the MD sound chip personally. There is some good stuff out there musically like Gley Lancer but I've always preferred the PCE and SNES sound hardware.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 25, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Roland Synth Guitar from 1990! Including the computer, Midi interface, module, pcm card, and game, this setup would have cost about $7,000 back then lol.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: spenoza on March 25, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
Ken's theme in Super SFII for SNES is pretty awesome.
His theme is generally pretty cool, but this rendition of it is not. The rhythm guitar sounds like a chainsaw with the hiccups, and the melody line, which sounds like it is supposed to be kinda brassy, actually sounds a little like a strangled goat. Also, your link is broken.
If tim follin had done any work for the pce, it would be the instant winner in this category.
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/cooks_transb.gif) Cook wonders if Arkhan will take the bait?
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 26, 2012, 01:36:34 AM
ffs.
Tim Follin stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't even like sampled music, and the only thing he did with guitar stuff that I can recall, is the stuff in Spiderman/X Men for SNES.
...and it sounds like cheesy porn music or something you'd hear in Shaft. He even said it was cheesy sounding. The best tunes in that game are the ones that aren't dicking off with guitar, like Gambit's stage. They're in Follins typical style of upbeat dancey electronic music with nice leads and ambient noise. It sounds like an improved SID tune.
His guitar use in that game's soundtrack is worse than the stuff in SF2 or Mystic Quest.
So, were he to do PCE, he'd most likely ignore sampling in favor of using the chip itself to his advantage like he did everywhere else (especially the NES). and in that regard, nothing he does is guitar-y usually. I don't think he's ever done any wailing guitar style leads like you hear in Devil's Crush.
So quite honestly, I think if he were to get on the PCE and try to do guitar, it would sound stupid.
Bobby Prince, now there's a white dude that would make PCE guitar shit happen. Even with goony MIDI, he brought the metal.
oh, and I don't think it's bait. I'm pretty sure Tatsujin is 100% serious. Follin could record the sounds made when he beats a cat against a wall and then record himself f*cking a bug zapper, and Tatsujin would call it a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Digi.k on March 26, 2012, 12:58:36 PM
try the intro to motor roader II it's really the only track that I like on there and sonically it's fantastic up there with some of the best pce chip tunes... the rest of the sound tracks while they have great samples the tunes are a bit meh in the melody department..
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 26, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
lol @ ark. I never stated that I really like his guitar stuff, even almost ever game had at least one or two of 'em in. I am the flute lover, and there is where he was absolut best at.
But, if he did guitar sampled or even FM generated guitar stuff (like timetrax), then it was mostly better than the stuff from other dudes. Still doesn't mean it is great stuff, but this thread is about it.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 26, 2012, 04:13:38 PM
What I like about Tim Failin is that his music is nice, but the games he worked on all suck. Like the shitiest of the shity there is. Not his fault, but very ironic.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 26, 2012, 04:18:35 PM
What I like about Tim Failin is that his music is nice, but the games he worked on all suck. Like the shitiest of the shity there is. Not his fault, but very ironic.
whats even funnier, is half the time he'd be making music while the game was still being designed. So often, the music doesn't fit the game in the slightest.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 26, 2012, 05:56:53 PM
That's how many games are made. Yuzo was making the music for Streets of Rage and ActRaiser, etc while they were being designed, though he'd know enough about what the game would be like to get the gist.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: spenoza on March 26, 2012, 06:00:45 PM
And yet Koshiro's awesomeness guaranteed that his music fit those games perfectly. In fact, doing the music while the game is in development is a pretty standard way of doing business. Even though the game may be in development, there's a development plan of what the game is supposed to look like and what the atmosphere should be.
In fact, this problem is the main reason I am not a big fan of Amiga games. Most of the soundtracks don't fit the games at all. The music might be good by itself, but it seems to have no relationship to the game itself. Hulsbeck and Follin are both especially guilty of this. It's like they really wanted to be working in the demo scene, not making music for games.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 26, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
Everybody had to get paied for something. I myself envy them that they had the chance to do so epic stuff, even today just watched (lissened) isolated to it. Am glad they did what they did.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2012, 01:26:43 AM
I'm not talking about DEVELOPMENT.
I'm talking about DESIGN.
Like, dudes sitting around trying to decide what the f*ck it is they are about to make.
There's a difference. A big one.
In Yuzo's, and most Japanese groups' case, the people making the game aren't f*ckups generally, and they have their shit together. The same can't be said for a lot of the Euro-game groups. Like Deadite pointed out, there are a lot of shit games with awesome music.
AKA: Turrican
and, you don't "work" in the demo scene, lol. Demo scene != moneys.
The music from Hulsbeck, Galway, Tel, Daglish, etc. is what sort of established the whole "Demo scene" sound, anyway.
Pretty much everyone ripped off Galway's leads.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: ccovell on March 27, 2012, 03:05:32 AM
What I like about Tim Failin is that his music is nice, but the games he worked on all suck. Like the shitiest of the shity there is. Not his fault, but very ironic.
Hey, Bionic Commando on teh Speccy was really cool for its time. I really liked LED Storm as well.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2012, 06:35:37 AM
LED storm is pretty dope.
I approve of that .
I still need a 128+ spectrum, so I can use it as decoration.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: fragmare on March 27, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
When it comes to 16-bit era chiptune guitar, it's all about Toshiharu Yamanishi. He's the composer of TFIV on the Genesis. Some of the tracks in that game are so good, it's absurd.
I'd imagine, if he had the chance, he'd probably have done some funky stuff on the PCE PSG too by using LFO for FM-ish effects, but alas, he worked for Technosoft.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: spenoza on March 27, 2012, 04:15:10 PM
Hrm... I wonder if you could get a keen lead guitar on the PCE using LFO. I'm curious to know what the LFO sounds like compared to regular PSG sound generation. Anyone have any good track examples that make heavy use of LFO?
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2012, 04:23:29 PM
no because the LFO on the PCE is not the LFO you'd think it is, and it sounds dorky.
I've toyed with it in squirrel but never liked what I did with it. I might revisit it eventually.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: fragmare on March 27, 2012, 05:17:10 PM
some of the low tones in the Altered Beast HuCard's music use LFO. They sound pretty bassy and FM-like for the PCE, imo. there are only like 4 games that use it. I forget what the other three are, though.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: ccovell on March 28, 2012, 12:16:20 AM
I just checked and Altered Beast's music doesn't use the LFO; only the sound effects do. I wonder which games actually do use it for music...?
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 28, 2012, 12:42:06 AM
It's noisy as hell, but I've always loved the chip Seta used in their old arcade games. Meta Fox is so metal
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: fragmare on March 28, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
I just checked and Altered Beast's music doesn't use the LFO; only the sound effects do. I wonder which games actually do use it for music...?
Wow, really? Altered Beast has some pretty nice low tones for straight-up PSG!
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: ccovell on March 28, 2012, 02:13:39 PM
Yeah, I had a shock when I saw that games I thought used "FM", like the endings to Legendary Axe and Space Harrier, didn't.
If anyone has free time, run lots of your favourite HESs in Mednafen and let us know if the "LFOCnt" reg in the debugger is anything other than 0 during music playback.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: nat on March 28, 2012, 02:19:10 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what the f*ck is "LFO?"
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 28, 2012, 02:36:46 PM
it's a Low Frequency Oscillator :)
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: esteban on March 28, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
but it's also low freq. oscillation, like tats said.
You basically use one waves oscillation, to diddle another wave into doing something else. A good example of this is that Commodore 64 lead sound everyone is fond of. You use LFO's rhythmic sweeping pattern to modulate the pulse width of the wave actually doing the lead... so it goes "shweeeeeeeeewooooooooooooooooom shweeeeeeeeewoooooooooooooooom". This shit. It was done before C64 though, since it's just a synthesizer setting. Depeche Mode used it a lot too.
You can usually crank the speed up or down to get fast/slow modulation. So "smooth leads" or "Alien noises", depending on the speed.
I actually intended to show this kind of thing in that Squirrel video I'll be making shortly.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2012, 03:52:00 AM
What I like about Tim Failin is that his music is nice, but the games he worked on all suck. Like the shitiest of the shity there is. Not his fault, but very ironic.
Solstice rocked!
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: sunteam_paul on March 29, 2012, 05:58:03 AM
but it's also low freq. oscillation, like tats said.
You basically use one waves oscillation, to diddle another wave into doing something else. A good example of this is that Commodore 64 lead sound everyone is fond of. You use LFO's rhythmic sweeping pattern to modulate the pulse width of the wave actually doing the lead... so it goes "shweeeeeeeeewooooooooooooooooom shweeeeeeeeewoooooooooooooooom".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFYzjU-C3mA This shit. It was done before C64 though, since it's just a synthesizer setting. Depeche Mode used it a lot too.
You can usually crank the speed up or down to get fast/slow modulation. So "smooth leads" or "Alien noises", depending on the speed.
I actually intended to show this kind of thing in that Squirrel video I'll be making shortly.
Ah, I love that type of pulsating sound. MAKE IT HAPPEN.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 29, 2012, 07:03:55 AM
The acronym stands for Low Frequency Oscillation, but that doesn't tell you much. The waveform of the oscillation is used to change the characteristic of a sound; pitch/frequency, volume, filter, etc. Low frequency means it's below the human audible hearing range. Usually 60hz or lower. On the PCE, it's mostly commonly used to do pitch bending on a note (back and forth / cycling). Usually on the tail end of a note too (key off): (Aldynes)
Should be able to hear it in that video at the tail end of most long notes (it's wobbly in sound). The effect is called vibrato. Tremolo is another effect, but it effects the volume of a sound (not to be confused with a 'trem bar' which is incorrectly named, but more like the tremolo of a pedal effect).
Anytime you change the pitch in a sound via a cycle, you're modulating the sound. The pitch is based on frequency, so LFO used to do vibrato *is* frequency modulation (FM). But it's not the same type of FM used in synth context. That type of frequency modulation is done at a frequency high into the human audible detection range. It's so fast that it creates additional harmonics and tones in the final sound/output.
There are two problems with the 'LFO' feature on the PCE. 1) It's not strictly LFO, so I have no idea why it's named that. The frequency modulation has a multiplier setting and can get very high ranges, so it's not limited to LFO. 2) The PCE is a period based frequency generator, not a PHA (phase accumulator like the SID and other 'real' digital synths). So while this special mode for the PCE's first two channels is technically capable of 'FM', it lacks the necessary parameters to generate usable FM harmonic sounds in the note rage, let alone 'bending' any sound. And using it for vibrato is a COMPLETE waste of time. Some other audio chips have hickups when you change the frequency registers while a channel is playing and this type of setting it used to prevent that, but the PCE has doesn't have this problem. So it makes using this mode for vibrato useless and a waste of a channel. 2b) It sucks that the volume register of the 'modulator' doesn't effect the 'brightness' of the modulation (which is how it works in FM synthesis). That also makes it useless for trying to do traditional FM sounds or similar. Oddly enough, the volume is supposed to be silenced on the modulator channel when in this mode, yet the audio from the waveform still leaks through to the DAC, just not at full volume. Ryphecha, Exophase and I did a lot of testing with this mode a couple of years ago. Overall, it's rather useless in audio for music.
There are a small handful of PCE games that use the mode, and they use it for vibrato too ;-_-
That said, the 'lfo' mode used at higher frequency would be good for creating certain types of sound effects.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 29, 2012, 07:42:46 AM
but, you can do vibrato and tremolo without using the LFO feature of the PCE. You can hear it in my Doom video, more towards the tail end though. I think I did it in R Type too and and Shadow of the Beast, actually. I don't use LFO.
Also, it's called a whammy bar :) No one really actually calls it a trem bar. Probably because it's wrong. Blame Fender. They sell their vibrato bridge assembly as a "tremolo", where other companies (Bigsby) sell it as a vibrato. As far as actual tremolo goes my Ampeg had a real nice tremolo built in. That with my Gretsch made some real nice rockabilly noise.
I tried to simulate a real fast tremolo in one of the Insanity chiptunes. I think it was used on the green-robot level.
Also, you don't mean to say LFO is useless in audio for music as a whole, right? Just for PCE?
Nat: Watch this if you want to see LFO in action
The best way to describe LFO without being technical is done with one simple word
DEVO.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Bonknuts on March 29, 2012, 08:42:09 AM
Quote
but, you can do vibrato and tremolo without using the LFO feature of the PCE. You can hear it in my Doom video, more towards the tail end though. I think I did it in R Type too and and Shadow of the Beast, actually.
That's what I'm saying. You can do 'lfo' type effects in software on the PCE without using the LFO hardware mode. And by doing it in software, you don't lose an audio channel. The LFO hardware mode on the pce also only effects the frequency (so vibrato only).
Quote
Also, you don't mean to say LFO is useless in audio for music as a whole, right? Just for PCE?
No. What I'm saying is that LFO hardware mode on the pce (paired channel mode 0 & 1) is useless for creating any 'FM' type sounds that fit a note harmonic/frequency. Because of how the frequency modulation is based on period steps. I guess you could use it to create some 'instrument' sounds that are inharmonic to note frequencies. Something along the lines of drum or crash or symbol or inharmonic bell, etc (not to sound like them, but as a single instance. No bending or sliding or different notes, etc).
Heh, maybe that's why they did call it 'LFO' mode. Because that's its most practical use. The upper frequency ranges for it are pretty sparse because of the period system (was just messing around with my old test app).
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Arkhan on March 29, 2012, 08:47:18 AM
Oh ok. I must've missed the first thing, and was just clearing up the second part, lol.
I never bothered with it because the outcome possibilities didn't seem worth it considering what I've pulled off without it.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2012, 01:42:03 PM
LFOs turned up really loud can also bring a whole house into shakings. It's great, you hear nothing, but you feel it and windows and stuff starts rattling.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: nat on March 29, 2012, 04:10:42 PM
Thanks guys, that clears things up quite a bit.
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Digi.k on March 30, 2012, 11:35:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFYzjU-C3mA This shit. It was done before C64 though, since it's just a synthesizer setting. Depeche Mode used it a lot too.
That really reminds me of Starfield stage 4 on Salamander pce hucard. can't remember if this emulated sound sounds accurate to the pce's tho..
mmmmmm wish they made this track into a full 3~4 minute track...
and this track stage 3 just gets the blood pumping!
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Digi.k on March 30, 2012, 11:42:53 AM
some of the low tones in the Altered Beast HuCard's music use LFO. They sound pretty bassy and FM-like for the PCE, imo. there are only like 4 games that use it. I forget what the other three are, though.
some of the music here in altered beast sounds like those in cadash particularly in the title music and also in jigoku meguri
Title: Re: Fake electric guitar in PSG
Post by: Tatsujin on March 30, 2012, 07:19:33 PM
this is my fav pce salamander track. i also believe that it was a pce exclusive track: