PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: kazekirifx on April 12, 2012, 03:26:08 PM
Title: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 12, 2012, 03:26:08 PM
I was always a gamer since the NES days, but after I got my first CD Rom-based consoles (the Duo and Sega CD at the same time) I wanted everything to be on a CD. I was so taken by real recorded music on redbook CD audio I detested chiptunes on all consoles. I all but stopped buying HuCards after I traded in my TG16 for a Duo. I couldn't even understand why folks on the Turbo list would bother even talking about 'good' hucard games anymore. (How can it be good? It's not a CD!) Consequentially, there were lots of excellent hucard games I never obtained until much later, after they had become "retro games". Only relatively recently have I bothered to obtain some of them like Magical Chase (Japan version) Coryoon, Devil's Crush, and Neutopia II. I've also bought quite a few auction lots of random hucards in recent years and am enjoying the not-so-excellent but still okay ones as well. (Lately, Psycho Chaser has been a fun mediocre but good challenging daily dose of gaming.)
Nowadays, I have shifted to almost the exact opposite opinion from the one I held back in the 90's. Pre-recorded music seems 'way too easy', and I am far more impressed when I hear the internal sound processor of a retro system being put to good use. I love the unique sound each retro system has, and even listen to mp3's of classic chiptunes on my Android phone sometimes when I travel. Great CD soundtracks like Lords of Thunder and Ys are still great in their own right, of course, but I am really into the retro electronic sound now. Consequentially, nowadays I can be a little bored when I play a PCE CD game that has mediocre music, or boring CD audio cutscenes, even though I used to love them back in the day... They can still be good in a nostalgic way I guess.
Anyway, can anyone else relate? I've always had the impression that I might be in the minority here. Others have always seemed to have a more balanced opinion of hucard vs. CD than I've had.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Black Tiger on April 12, 2012, 03:41:03 PM
I tried to get games that might be fun to play. I preferred PCE imports, but they were expensive, a crap shoot and took a while to arrive. I returned Loom after completing it several times because it was super buggy and was much happier with Air Zonk, which I got in its place. Street Fighter II was also much more fun than many CD games I could have got instead and was the best fighting game for consoles. There were also fewer Turbo CD games and releases were slow, so I just bought the best newest games that were available wherever I found them.
Since you mentioned the Turbo List, I'm guessing that you got into the Turbo after it was discontinued. I still loved picking up random PCE HuCards that I found at pawn shops and fleamarkets. I also still packed my Turbo Express with me while transit was my only means of getting around. It was fun discovering games like Tatsunoko Fighter, Yokai Douchuki and Mr Heli and experiencing them without knowing anything about them beforehand.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Keith Courage on April 12, 2012, 07:16:44 PM
I played quite a bit of hu cards at that time. Mainly because hu cards were cheaper being that my dad bought a copy of each game they had at a local video rental store for me at only $5 a piece. I think he ended up getting around 35 games in all. I owned a Turbo CD drive as well but only bought myself like 2 CD games a year.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 12, 2012, 07:31:40 PM
Since you mentioned the Turbo List, I'm guessing that you got into the Turbo after it was discontinued.
What? No. Did I imply that? I guess I might have made it sound like I was on the Turbo List when I first got my Turbo. No, that's not the case. Got the TG16 in 1992 and Duo just a year later in 1993. But I guess I'm including the late 90's here too during the PS1 days when the Turbo List was around. I was still very much a CD-ophile during those times. (To be fair, I did buy and enjoy SF2, Bonk 3, Soldier Blade and others even after owning the Duo. I still wished they had CD soundtracks :) )
I hated the N64 too because it was cartridge based. Even now, I still don't have the nostalgia for that system that many other aging gamers do, even though my bro did own one and I was quite familiar with the N64 library. I was quite a supporter of the Saturn and, to a lesser extent, the PS1 because I favored CD technology over cartridge. I saw Nintendo's choice to make N64 a cartridge based system as a stubborn refusal to admit they were wrong, since they had already spent some time scorning Sega's choice to make a CD peripheral after they had decided for sure not to release one for the SNES.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: vestcoat on April 12, 2012, 08:53:44 PM
Back to the OP, I can't relate. Being unable to play TG-CD games until '97 did create a backlog of CD titles I was itching for, but I continued to buy Turbochips alongside them through the rest of the Nineties. Although the system was discontinued, I had access to anything I wanted between Radioshack, TZD, and the late, great, Games to Go in Richfield, MN.
I've never had any particular affinity for chiptunes. Some of them are great, but the only hits that spring to mind are Dungeon Explorer, Insanity, Bonk's Revenge, and a few others. There are many more CD tunes I will never forget: Gate of Thunder, Lords, Ys, Valis 2, Splash Lake, Exile 1 & 2, etc.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 12, 2012, 09:16:29 PM
...and the late, great, Games to Go in Richfield, MN.
Well, we can relate on that at least. Without Games to Go I wouldn't have been able to start buying PCE imports in a time when trading on the Net was still in its infancy. I owe a lot to them.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: soop on April 12, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
Nah, I've always held cartridges in high regard, higher than all other media.
Although I did put a hard drive on some Hucards the other day, and then I was like "oh wait, magnets" Still work though.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 12, 2012, 11:13:36 PM
I hated the N64 too because it was cartridge based. Even now, I still don't have the nostalgia for that system that many other aging gamers do, even though my bro did own one and I was quite familiar with the N64 library. I was quite a supporter of the Saturn and, to a lesser extent, the PS1 because I favored CD technology over cartridge. I saw Nintendo's choice to make N64 a cartridge based system as a stubborn refusal to admit they were wrong, since they had already spent some time scorning Sega's choice to make a CD peripheral after they had decided for sure not to release one for the SNES.
Well said, I had a similar feeling when the industry came to that crossroad: stick with expensive cartridges or switch to the cheap 3 cent CD medium, the future... I felt Nintendo was screwing us with continued use of expensive carts which I remember reading cost $15-$25 to manufacture versus a 3 cent CD, plus $2-$3 bucks for manual and jewel case! So after years of NES/SNES love and loyalty (played/beat hundreds of NES games (http://www.ysutopia.net/forums/index.php?topic=64.msg719#msg719), too), I had to part ways with Nintendo and go with Sony's PS1; I simply avoided the N64... Other factors included learning that Squaresoft was jumping ship and was excited about the games that it would be able to produce on Sony's CD based system, so that was all I needed to know to say good-bye to Nintendo. I do miss Zelda and Metriod, though... :( Mario, eh, not so much, but I'm sure they were a lot of fun.
I did kinda feel the industry screwed us with the move to CD and not seeing that much of a reduction in the average cost of a game, though... They had their explanation ready, of course, that production costs for these next generation games had skyrocketed so tough noogies, etc. I suppose it's defensible, and mostly true, but still...
Oh, and to your question, no, I played all my games out till I was sick of 'em, HuCard, Cart, or otherwise.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 13, 2012, 12:28:55 AM
I remember back in the early CD age, my SEGA CD owning friend would religiously call some sort of dealer on the phone and ask about each new title, but does it have full motion video?
It was at that point that a lot of FMV games circulated through his console. By deuce those game were utter rubbish. Just like 3D graphics the introduction of CD's set games back a bit in the beginning before coming into its own.
Needless, pace breaking, overwrought animated cutscenes and redbook audio tracks might have been wondrous to the technology addled young mind of the day, but it took a while before developers actually made better games thanks to these, not in spite of them.
I see the 16bit CD days as a sort of dark age for the technology. You lost the benefits of carts, such as no load times and chip tunes were made passe and you got very little worthwhile in return. 16bit consoles didn't have the processing power to take advantage of all that extra space anyway, so it was too much, too early.
The same can be said for the first generation with 3D graphics. I think with consoles such as Saturn and PSX we lost more by beautiful 2D pixel art going away than we gained by the crude clumsy 3D graphics and experimental awkward gameplay that replaced them. It wasn't until a generation later on the DC, PS2, Gamecube that 3D graphics really proved its mettle.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: td741 on April 13, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
I like chiptunes, especially when you get to hear how people got around alot of the technical issues. I would boot up games on the C=64 and Amiga just to hear the music (and a few PC and SNES titles).
That said, I wasn't too impressed with the TG-16 until I saw and played a Duo. My experiences with early HuCard/TurboChip games left alot to be desired and I didn't like the sound/music in many of the games I had casually played. On contrast, the CD soundtrack of the games for Turbo were, I felt, better then most of the other CD systems that I had encountered. I shunned most Chip games in my early days and concentrated on SCD and CD titles. That said, I had a chance to get acquainted with some chip games that had great music and got me over my original issues... That said, some soundtracks still grate on my nerves...
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: soop on April 13, 2012, 03:04:05 AM
Yes. After I got my TG-16 CD-ROM add-on, I forgot about Hu's. I would still look over Hu's for sale at flea markets and used stores, but it was all CD for me from '91 til about 5 years ago when I rediscovered the joy of a cards. I was forced to play Hu's when my CD-ROM drive broke (I did have MagicEngine that I used for a bit to play CD's).
I prefer HuCards now over CD's. Most games are quick to get into(I find my time to play has severely diminished) and I can use my Express when I'm at the ladies place.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: jeffhlewis on April 13, 2012, 03:28:02 AM
Yes - I had literally the exact same experience, only with the Sega CD. I got one about the middle of its lifespan, and once I bought it I played nothing but CD games pretty much - Sonic CD, Final Fight, Lunar and all of the Working Designs games and the handful of good shooters available. I even played dreck like Sewer Shark, just because it had FMV.
For anyone who didn't grow up gaming during that time in the early-mid 90's, redbook audio and FMV were so amazing in those early days that people would play shit games just to see video or hear CD soundtracks - cartridge FM/synth tunes all of a sudden seemed passe and obsolete.
Of course now, FMV games were largely a joke and I vastly prefer good chiptune music to redbook audio because the magic of a CD-drive just playing a song in the background is gone.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Necromancer on April 13, 2012, 04:45:32 AM
I can't really relate, since I bought games mostly based on how fun they looked.
I see the 16bit CD days as a sort of dark age for the technology. You lost the benefits of carts, such as no load times and chip tunes were made passe and you got very little worthwhile in return.
No way! Many CD titles have minimal load times (look at Gate of Thunder), the sprite animation found in titles like Forgotten Worlds and Dracula X is far better than their cart equivalents, and you're nuts if you don't think Ys is a better game with its redbook tunes and cut scenes (few though they may be) than it would be without.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Black Tiger on April 13, 2012, 04:59:30 AM
If you love chiptunes then you have to play CD games which have dozens of great chip-only soundtracks which are at least as long as the average HuCard soundtrack.
For pretty much every genre, CD games had more pros than cons over cart games. RPGs in particular had the best overall experience on CD.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 13, 2012, 05:14:29 AM
You know, when talking in general you shouldn't just consider just the good stuff, but also all the rubbish in their wake.
Perhaps the Duo fared better than other early CD systems given that I find the PC Engine had pretty weak music to begin with. On average I can dance to a NES chip tune I never heard before much harder than one from a TC.
As for the better sprites on some later era Duo games, I cannot say wither it is the extra space of a CD or the advantage of veteran programming and the additional memory of the CD system card that made that possible. I suspect it is more the latter than the former.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Necromancer on April 13, 2012, 06:06:25 AM
As for the better sprites on some later era Duo games, I cannot say wither it is the extra space of a CD or the advantage of veteran programming and the additional memory of the CD system card that made that possible. I suspect it is more the latter than the former.
I think not. In the case of Dracula X (similar arguments can be applied to many other titles), Konami was surely not using neophytes for Super Castlevania IV, Bloodlines, or SNES Dracula X (the latter two coming out after PCE Dracula X), and the amount of system card ram is far more limiting than the much larger storage space on the cartridges.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 13, 2012, 06:21:44 AM
That a fact... Well just for curiosity, what is the ROM size of Dracula X minus the audio tracks. Could be interesting to compare that to the largest known ROM size of a TC game, and the size of both SNES ADX and Bloodlines.
I suppose what you say does make sense from a purely economical perspective. When paying to print a CD you got ~600 megs of storage space that you could use 10, 100 or all 600 megs of without any extra cost. In contrast bigger capacity carts cost more to manufacture per unit purchased so I believe a hard limit was put in place early in the development phase by the powers that be.
Looking at Wikipedia I see that the TurboGrafx and SNES had about eh same sized VRAM, so all the extra memory from the CD cards was all gravy.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 13, 2012, 06:34:56 AM
Since you mentioned the Turbo List, I'm guessing that you got into the Turbo after it was discontinued.
Did the Turbo Mailing List actually exist before the Turbo was discontinued? When I got on it the newest games were Sapphire and Working Love. It was dead in the US, or as good as dead. I guess I really don't know how far back it went, but I was assuming 1994 or so.
As for the OP's question, yeah, big time. My first system was a US Duo. I bought it for CD games so I played CD games.
Eventually I realized that the transition to CD was more than just the medium. To me there are three district periods of PCE games:
1) The Salad Days: mostly action games and many are arcade conversions. Mostly HuCard. There are a lot of really basic games from this period, but also some extraordinary awesome stuff like CRUSH!
2) The Renaissance: The PCE really finds its legs. Dracula X, Tengai 2, Spriggen. Mostly Super CD with a few Hu and ACDs. A huge shift towards sims and RPGs, but still a fair amount of shooters. Not a lot of HuCards.
3) The Otaku Ghetto: An almost total focus on sims and RPGs, mostly sims. Almost no HuCards (far to expensive to manufacture at this point and the few PCE fans all had CDROM2s by now).
So basically, as the system got older, things moved more to CD. This lead to more games that were better suited to doing things with CD that SFC couldn't do with cart (play Emerald Dragon or Flash Hiders on SFC, seriously, they are shadows) but that led away from action. By the time the PCE died it had become...well, its no secret as to why the PC-FX turned out the way it did. It wasn't a good sequel to PCE in 1987, but it was pretty spot on for a sequel to PCE circa 1994. (i.e.: you push I to advance the text...a lot).
So while I appreciate the "multi-media" content of CD games, if I want a quality action game I need to consider HuCards. The entire Soldier series for example, and all the "real" Bombermans are only on HuCard. You absolutely need HuCard, big time, for the entire PCE experience...although I didn't see it when the stuff was new.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: vestcoat on April 13, 2012, 07:40:45 AM
...and the late, great, Games to Go in Richfield, MN.
Well, we can relate on that at least. Without Games to Go I wouldn't have been able to start buying PCE imports in a time when trading on the Net was still in its infancy. I owe a lot to them.
Yeah, they were great. Almost no one was interested in the Turbo back then and I remember Paul always saying "oh, we'll probably get a copy of such-and-such in soon... we're the only place in the country that buys this stuff!"
I see the 16bit CD days as a sort of dark age for the technology. You lost the benefits of carts, such as no load times and chip tunes were made passe and you got very little worthwhile in return. 16bit consoles didn't have the processing power to take advantage of all that extra space anyway, so it was too much, too early.
The same can be said for the first generation with 3D graphics. I think with consoles such as Saturn and PSX we lost more by beautiful 2D pixel art going away than we gained by the crude clumsy 3D graphics and experimental awkward gameplay that replaced them. It wasn't until a generation later on the DC, PS2, Gamecube that 3D graphics really proved its mettle.
The earliest CD games were a cool twist on the 8-bit experience, it wasn't until '94-95 that FVM went to seed on the 3DO, Sega CD, and Jaguar. I'm not as familiar with the Sega CD library, but the Duo really hit its stride with the SCD - the RAM was big enough that games didn't have to stop and load ALL the time (like CF2), but the buffer still filled quickly (unlike the Arcade Card). As for the games, there were a couple FMV titles like Sherlock and ICftD, but they were a tolerable minority and the PCE-CD library is really solid overall.
Early 3D graphics, now that was dark age!
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Black Tiger on April 13, 2012, 10:01:31 AM
You know, when talking in general you shouldn't just consider just the good stuff, but also all the rubbish in their wake.
Perhaps the Duo fared better than other early CD systems given that I find the PC Engine had pretty weak music to begin with. On average I can dance to a NES chip tune I never heard before much harder than one from a TC.
As for the better sprites on some later era Duo games, I cannot say wither it is the extra space of a CD or the advantage of veteran programming and the additional memory of the CD system card that made that possible. I suspect it is more the latter than the former.
If you're counting the rubbish as well, then the most popular consoles have the worst libraries.
The base PCE hardware is better suited to fast animation than the MD and SFC. There are many MD and SFC cart games that also have great animation. Dracula X's stages are <2 megs each without audio. The bosses probably average <1 meg each. With sll of the enemies which are repeated, I think that an average of 2.5 megs per stage would translate well to HuCard. So a nice 6 stage version could be done on an 18 meg HuCard.
The quality of HuCard compositions wasn't what made the PCE CD a success, it was the software, pricing and hardware options. HuCards have amazing soundtracks, even if you only like dance music. I'm guessing that you haven't played through enough games to judge yet.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 13, 2012, 10:29:08 AM
I have sampled a few TC games and so far all of the sound tracks have been very forgettable. So far nothing to even approach the perfection of even one track from any NES Castlevania or Mega Man title.
To me, for older generation games, the catchy chip tunes are half the experience.
Are there any TC games with a similar musical repute of the aforementioned series?
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Necromancer on April 13, 2012, 10:34:53 AM
Try tunes from Legendary Axe and Dungeon Explorer; if you find those forgettable, you suck. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: RegalSin on April 13, 2012, 12:11:43 PM
Okay as of now in USA, videogames are no longer deemed as a class of media. About Hu-cards, well nobody really knew about it, and when I did find out, it was an alien thing for me.
About sound from cassettes/cart games. I 100% regret nothing at all, I will admit that many musicians for various machines, did make great music, but for these systems the internal volume level was low ( like it should be for even CD music ). However the ability to make computerized music and record it to CD is what really made the PCE amazing. You had CD/record sound on a videogame console, years before the SNES did.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 13, 2012, 01:38:20 PM
Well, well, what do you know, one title I have and the other one is on my list. Looks like my next TG game is going to be Legendary Axe. Lets see whether it changes my impression of the chip library music.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Obfuscate on April 13, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
No, Dungeon Explorer and Soldier Blade are some of the best games/tunes/all around awesomeness ever created. I had a Duo as a kid and most of my favorite games were Hucards. Plus, as a kid the Hucards were less expensive to buy.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: roflmao on April 13, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
And the Crush games have excellent tunes!
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Samurai Ghost on April 13, 2012, 02:20:45 PM
I have sampled a few TC games and so far all of the sound tracks have been very forgettable. So far nothing to even approach the perfection of even one track from any NES Castlevania or Mega Man title.
You haven't even heard truly great 8-bit Castlevania music until you've played the Famicom version of Castlevania 3 which has the extra sound chips in the cart. The NES version is crap in comparison.
As far as HuCARDs go, can you really get any better than Air Zonk/PC Denjin?! Some of the best chiptunes ever in my opinion and they match the game perfectly.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 13, 2012, 06:38:04 PM
Aeroblasters stage 2. If that doesn't impress then...whatever. You so crazy.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: esteban on April 13, 2012, 09:30:19 PM
I have sampled a few TC games and so far all of the sound tracks have been very forgettable. So far nothing to even approach the perfection of even one track from any NES Castlevania or Mega Man title.
lol, rarely read such a rubbish.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 14, 2012, 02:02:35 AM
That said, I wasn't too impressed with the TG-16 until I saw and played a Duo. My experiences with early HuCard/TurboChip games left alot to be desired and I didn't like the sound/music in many of the games I had casually played. On contrast, the CD soundtrack of the games for Turbo were, I felt, better then most of the other CD systems that I had encountered. I shunned most Chip games in my early days and concentrated on SCD and CD titles. That said, I had a chance to get acquainted with some chip games that had great music and got me over my original issues... That said, some soundtracks still grate on my nerves...
Yeah. This is pretty close to my experience. I think the only hucard I was impressed with during my one year owning just the TG16 before the Duo was Air Zonk. Even my friends who had SNES and Genesis found the graphics and sound to be on par with their expectations from a 16-bit system. My only issue with Air Zonk was that it was too short. kamiboy, I would also recommend Air Zonk for chip tunes, along with Soldier Blade, my other favorite. Magical Chase is also one of the best for chiptunes, but I doubt you're ready to seek out and pay for that one yet at this point. JPN version is a bit cheaper and more common.
I prefer HuCards now over CD's. Most games are quick to get into(I find my time to play has severely diminished) and I can use my Express when I'm at the ladies place.
I can totally relate to this too. I find most hucards better for instant gratification. I like to just flip on a shmup or Naxat pinball game for a quickie. I seldom have time to get into an RPG these days (though I wish I did).
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Tatsujin on April 14, 2012, 02:35:50 AM
It was at that point that a lot of FMV games circulated through his console. By deuce those game were utter rubbish. Just like 3D graphics the introduction of CD's set games back a bit in the beginning before coming into its own.
Needless, pace breaking, overwrought animated cutscenes and redbook audio tracks might have been wondrous to the technology addled young mind of the day, but it took a while before developers actually made better games thanks to these, not in spite of them.
I see the 16bit CD days as a sort of dark age for the technology. You lost the benefits of carts, such as no load times and chip tunes were made passe and you got very little worthwhile in return. 16bit consoles didn't have the processing power to take advantage of all that extra space anyway, so it was too much, too early.
I call that rubbish too. no other "16-Bit" system really profited from the CD medium as much as the PCE did. And how ironically is it, that it was also the very very first system that used the cd-medium? check some of these comparisons to see the advantage of cd vs. cart:
That a fact... Well just for curiosity, what is the ROM size of Dracula X minus the audio tracks. Could be interesting to compare that to the largest known ROM size of a TC game, and the size of both SNES ADX and Bloodlines.
Looking at Wikipedia I see that the TurboGrafx and SNES had about eh same sized VRAM, so all the extra memory from the CD cards was all gravy.
watch here for some visual facts of what the mighty pce cd-rom was capable to throw on the sceen:
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 14, 2012, 04:42:21 AM
@kamiboy: The data track for Dracula X is 19.8 MB. The largest sized HuCard game I believe is "Street Fighter II: CE" reportedly at 20 Mbits, so 2.5 MB, also, average size of HuCards is 8 Mbits/1 MB. Just thinking about it, I can't even imagine having to develop a videogame with only 1 MB of space... Skills like that are beyond impressive to me.
@kazekirifx: Rereading your first post inspired further thoughts on this. Good music is good music, I love it and it's very important to my gaming experience, so I wanna hear it in the best possible way, the way that the composer/arranger intended; I don't want awesome music being degenerated down in quality because it has to be programmed/adapted to the system's custom sound hardware. Loss in quality, whether or not clever programming helped to minimize it, doesn't impress me... You said that pre-recorded music seems 'way too easy' - well, shouldn't it be? Aren't you looking at it wrongly? Why wouldn't you want the best possible music quality included with the game, exactly the same way the composer/arranger (a good one, that is) got to hear it as it was being produced ? This seems silly to me, and I've never actually seen someone try to levy criticism at it, but each to his own.
My experience was this: after playing Ys Book I&II, Ys III:WoY and Gate of Thunder, I wanted MORE and no other game's lame, lazy, cheap soundtrack with blips and beeps could ever suffice - the standard was raised, and raised high! When I got the honor of playing FF IV, I lamented that it wasn't a CD, and I pondered how much more awesome Nobuo Uematsu's music would've sounded if it was, as well as how much more richer the experience would've been! The FF IV soundtrack still ranks as one of my favorites, and the SNES did a fine job (with its Sony sound chip, I believe), but I would've loved for all of it to have been in the redbook audio format! But hey, in some cases, the good music (in its original form) that couldn't be put into the game allowed for them to put it elsewhere: a separately sold soundtrack CD for extra profit.
Tangent: I know I've asked/mentioned this somewhere, but did anybody ever play FF IV with their SNES stereo cables connected to a fully set up Dolby theater system (Dolby Decoder/Receiver with Front Left/Center/Right and Rear Left/Right speakers) ?? I've wondered how many others got to experience this and this is the only game that I know of that took advantage of the surround effect in this way: When fighting the final boss, as the background music heats up and a little bit before it's about to loop back to the beginning, a kind of beep sound is bounced around your speakers; the the rear speakers get the sound, then the front right speaker gets it, then the front left, and finally the center, etc., SOMETHING like that, hard to describe... "Dolby Pro Logic," a surround sound processing technology, allowed for the encoding of 4 separate sound channels (front left/right, center, and one rear channel for both L/R rear speakers), doubling the stereo effect and nothing took advantage of it quite like FF IV... Anyway, thought I'd share and ask if anybody else had the full set up and got to enjoy it as well; I was very impressed by it!
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kamiboy on April 14, 2012, 07:00:59 AM
Okay, well I guess this settles it for me, PC Engine developers fared much, much better with the CD format than SEGA CD developers ever did. Most of those ghastly FMV games on the SCD were the produce of western developers but even the Japanese developed games on the SCD were not an exact showcase for the medium outside of voiced FMV cut scenes which never impressed me a bit.
I guess growing up around SEGA hardware by proxy of my friend has given me a bias agaist the formats early days. I've yet to find the CD hardware I am looking for so I have yet to truly sample the PC Engine CD goods outside of youtube videos.
As for the music angle, I have to admit I am biased towards the simplicity of the NES/Gameboy sound chips as they put pure melody center stage. I do tend to find 8 bit sound tracks more catchy than 16 bit ones and PC Engine sound hardware is of the 16 bit persuation. It doesnt help that half of my 16 bit sound impression is formed by the grating aesthetic of the Mega Drive.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: esteban on April 14, 2012, 06:16:27 PM
Tangent: I know I've asked/mentioned this somewhere, but did anybody ever play FF IV with their SNES stereo cables connected to a fully set up Dolby Surround system (with Front Left/Center/Right and Rear Left/Right speakers) ?? I've wondered how many others got to experience this and this is the only game that I know of that took advantage of the surround effect in this way: When fighting the final boss, as the tune/melody heats up and a little bit before it's about to loop back to the beginning, a kind of beep sound is bounced around your speakers; the music on all speakers goes low, then the rear speakers get the sound, then the front right speaker gets it, then the front left, and finally the center, etc. Dolby Surround 2.0 allowed for the encoding of 4 separate sound channels (front left/right, center, and one rear channel for both L/R rear speakers), doubling the stereo effect and nothing took advantage of it quite like that FF IV final boss battle... Anyway, thought I'd share and ask if anybody else had the full set up and got to enjoy it as well; I was very impressed by it!
Say what?! I did not know this! Starting with NES, I had my consoles hooked up to a standard component stereo...now, I know the NES was mono, but a lot of TG-16 HuCARDS actually had nice stereo effects.
But Dolby Surround 2.0 on SNES? Insanity! I didn't get a surround sound-capable receiver until much later, so I wouldn't have been able to experience the truly immersive FFIV 2.0 experience.
Back on topic: Did I neglect HuCARDS in the 90's?
Answer: Hell no. I had the TG-CD early on, but as you know, there was a dearth of software. I can't tell you how painful it was to discover that "Magical Dinosaur Tour" or "Addams Family" were the only releases slated for TG-CD...even if I couldn't afford a new game, I at least wanted to have something to drool over and look forward to! (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
So, given the paltry selection of CD games, the HuCARDS (which had a healthier release schedule) were definitely appealing.
Now, let's get something out of the way: I wanted to buy many import HuCARDS/CD's in the 90's, but they were so goddamn expensive it was difficult justifying ONE import when I could buy at least TWO domestic titles. Yes, some titles were worth it, but I really didn't have reliable information on imports and it was always a huge gamble.
So, my answer to the orginal question is, "No."
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 15, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: esteban
Say what?! I did not know this! Starting with NES, I had my consoles hooked up to a standard component stereo...now, I know the NES was mono, but a lot of TG-16 HuCARDS actually had nice stereo effects.
But Dolby Surround 2.0 on SNES? Insanity! I didn't get a surround sound-capable receiver until much later, so I wouldn't have been able to experience the truly immersive FFIV 2.0 experience.
This is news to me. I knew that King Arthur's Word was in Dolby Surround (considering the vintage, this is what it would be called) but I can't remember any others. I can't remember if I own FFIV anymore, I might have a JP copy. I'll look into it.
So if FFIV is in Dolby Surround, why isn't FFV, FRVI, and other stuff like Chrono Trigger?
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 15, 2012, 11:00:28 AM
Say what?! I did not know this! Starting with NES, I had my consoles hooked up to a standard component stereo...now, I know the NES was mono, but a lot of TG-16 HuCARDS actually had nice stereo effects.
But Dolby Surround 2.0 on SNES? Insanity! I didn't get a surround sound-capable receiver until much later,
- There it goes.
It starts at 1:20, then at 1:24 is when the "bouncing around" effect of that beep sound (for lack of a better way to describe it) starts and it ends ~1:28 before the melody restarts. You can definitely tell the use of the stereo effect as you're listening to it on youtube, going left only to right only, etc. So yeah, that's the part that you'd need to pay attention to if you had it hooked up to a surround system.
Quote
so I wouldn't have been able to experience the truly immersive FFIV 2.0 experience.
LOL @ "FFIV 2.0 experience."
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 15, 2012, 11:53:36 AM
Well, yeah, of course its stereo. Virtually everything on SNES makes at least some use of stereo. In order to do Dolby Surround though you either need clever use of a powerful sound chip (which the SNES certainly has) to hide two more channels into the stereo by real time phase inversion, or very accurate sampling (unlikely).
You also, more or less, need to pay Dolby a fee, which will then allow you to put the (http://www.infomercial-hell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/dolby-surround-logo.jpg) logo on the product. Because of this necessary chain of events, its rather uncommon for something to use Dolby Surround and not advertise it.
EDIT: I just checked and I don't own a FFIV cart anymore. Youtube probably isn't hifi enough to prove this claim one way or another, so does someone else have this cart?
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: T2KFreeker on April 15, 2012, 12:28:57 PM
To me, a good game was a good game. Mind you, I really enjoyed some of the later CD versions of Cart games, but still, I went for what looked good. Forst console I got that I only went for CD's only was the 3DO, for obvious reasons. :lol:
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 15, 2012, 01:13:09 PM
Well, yeah, of course its stereo. Virtually everything on SNES makes at least some use of stereo. In order to do Dolby Surround though you either need clever use of a powerful sound chip (which the SNES certainly has) to hide two more channels into the stereo by real time phase inversion, or very accurate sampling (unlikely).
You also, more or less, need to pay Dolby a fee, which will then allow you to put the logo on the product. Because of this necessary chain of events, its rather uncommon for something to use Dolby Surround and not advertise it.
Interesting, yeah, when you had asked about the other FF/Squaresoft games, I got curious and googled around. There's a list of SNES games that actually earned the Dolby Surround logo (seen in the packaging), and apparently the first one to do so was the one you mentioned:
King Arthur's World - Jaleco Art of Fighting 2 - Takara / KAC Fatal Fury Special - Takara Flintstones - Ocean Jurassic Park - Ocean Jurassic Park Part 2 - Ocean
So yeah, we know for sure that the SNES supported surround output. But without Dolby, was it still possible? I found this post that sheds some light on it:
Publishers need to have their games certified by Dolby Labs in order to put the trade mark Dolby logo's on their packaging. For this reason pubishers will often support matrixed sound but not mention Dolby. Even recent games on the Wii do this. Wii Fit and Bomberman Land Wii have matrixed sound but do not have Dolby certification.
Also, there's an old 2008 post by Chris Covell saying that Roland Sound Space was a kind of simulated surround effect (recall the RSS logo on the back of Dracula X). It appears this "matrixed" sound and Konami's use of RSS were workarounds to having to pay Dolby a licensing fee and getting the game certified by them (in the RSS case, the licensing fee was cheaper perhaps?). Lemme stress the "appears" part too because I'm speaking about something I'm not very familiar with.
The other possibility is my Sony Surround receiver/system had an interesting reaction to this particular FF IV stereo effect. I know I didn't imagine it; I REALLY thought that it was cool they were doing fancy things with the sound effects at the time, but I'm not gonna say I'm 100% about this... I'm not sure about even the order of the bouncing sound effect (too long ago to remember a detail like that), if it was like FL, FC, FR, RLR, etc. or was it just the way I heard things.
My issue is, if the sound signal is not encoded the way a Dolby certified Surround receiver expects it to be, how can a surround effect be decoded by it ?? Like Konami's use of this RSS... Did I need to buy Roland equipment to enjoy it? I didn't get to play most of my NEC games with my Turbo Duo connected to the Surround receiver, so I dunno if Dracula X sounded any different beyond stereo effects.
Quote
EDIT: I just checked and I don't own a FFIV cart anymore. Youtube probably isn't hifi enough to prove this claim one way or another, so does someone else have this cart?
Oh, I still own mine, I'd never give it up! I bought it used for $5 bucks from a resale shop that I used to hang out at as a kid. I wonder if the battery has survived though and if I'll find my last game saved. I wouldn't start a new game just to get to the end to find out if my memory was accurate about this surround effect. On the other hand, I do have the SNES Game Genie; if there's a cheat code to get you to the end, that'd help!
Yeah, I second that. It just simply was the case that I started to find more games that I enjoyed in CD format, this referring to the period before PS1 made it the standard. However, I continued on with my NES/SNES rentals during that era. I wanted to play games, and if they still had to be in cart format, so be it!
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 15, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
I was under the impression that Roland Sound Space was just like...reverb. Its a two channel effect, and therefore not matrixed like Dolby Surround. Dolby Surround actually hides four channels in the space of two. Its f*cking GENIUS as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound anywhere near as good as Dolby Digital or DTS, but it took a lot more brains to make it happen, it rolled out decades earlier, and its fully compatible with much older gear.
Regarding Wii and GC games with Dolby Surround (Dolby Surround II, in these cases): The systems themselves officially support the process, so you'd think the game makers would just be able to use the process without individual certification...doesn't that make sense? It seems like it would be this way. I don't know.
As for hearing Dolby Surround-like effects come out of your system when it isn't officially there in the source: this is possible. Especially with the lots of reverb and stuff. It is certainly possible for the Pro Logic circuit to place certain things more in one channel than the other out of simple coincidence. Its also possible that it was put in there for real and they just skipped the certification. Also, if you were running in one of those special DSP modes like Hall, Concert, Jazz, whatever...anything can happen in those modes, especially on cheaper gear.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: city41 on April 15, 2012, 02:10:40 PM
I prefer chip tunes over redbook audio most of the time. Chiptunes are something unique to video games, and I really enjoy what some developers are able to pull off with them. The original cart music on Neo Geo and SNES games in particular are quite awesome. I vastly prefer the cart's music over the arranged CD music for Neo games.
But for the Turbo in particular it does seem most hucard games don't do too much with music. Someone mentioned Air Zonk and that's really the only game I know of where I feel the music is interesting.
I've returned to the Turbo after a very long hiatus. I currently only have a TG16 and a Turbo Express, so I'm currently 100% hucarding it. I don't mind. I'm sure I'l get a Duo eventually, but for now hucards are keeping me mighty happy.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: roflmao on April 15, 2012, 02:23:45 PM
But for the Turbo in particular it does seem most hucard games don't do too much with music. Someone mentioned Air Zonk and that's really the only game I know of where I feel the music is interesting.
There are some truly extraordinary hucard soundtracks. Feel free to check out a website I recently put together to sample some of the goodness: http://turbomusic.risemedia.org (http://turbomusic.risemedia.org/). I'd at LEAST check out Dragon Spirit, Soldier Blade, Devil's Crush, and Dungeon Explorer. Also, I'll be adding another 15 or so soundtracks in the next couple of days.
/self-promoting-plug :)
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 15, 2012, 03:54:47 PM
Another thought regarding the OP: I think the notion that CD games were superior was a large reason why I was willing to pay a lot of money to buy the hardware to play them in the first place. If, at the time, I had really thought of HuCards as equal to CD games I don't know if I had been willing to buy the Duo just to expand the available library to choose from. There were still plenty of attractive HuCards I didn't own when I bought the Duo. For those who bought the Turbo CD or Duo back when the system was still alive: What made you choose to pay up and get the CD Rom hardware? Wasn't there a belief that the games would be somehow technically 'superior' to hucard games, or did you just want to expand the library you had access to? I know now in retrospect hucards seem like a very cool, unique, and appealing format; but come on, did you really see hucards and CD's as equal in the early 90's before or after you had just paid hundreds of dollars for the technology?
@kazekirifx: Rereading your first post inspired further thoughts on this. Good music is good music, I love it and it's very important to my gaming experience, so I wanna hear it in the best possible way, the way that the composer/arranger intended; I don't want awesome music being degenerated down in quality because it has to be programmed/adapted to the system's custom sound hardware. Loss in quality, whether or not clever programming helped to minimize it, doesn't impress me... You said that pre-recorded music seems 'way too easy' - well, shouldn't it be? Aren't you looking at it wrongly? Why wouldn't you want the best possible music quality included with the game, exactly the same way the composer/arranger (a good one, that is) got to hear it as it was being produced ? This seems silly to me, and I've never actually seen someone try to levy criticism at it, but each to his own.
My experience was this: after playing Ys Book I&II, Ys III:WoY and Gate of Thunder, I wanted MORE and no other game's lame, lazy, cheap soundtrack with blips and beeps could ever suffice - the standard was raised, and raised high! When I got the honor of playing FF IV, I lamented that it wasn't a CD, and I pondered how much more awesome Nobuo Uematsu's music would've sounded if it was, as well as how much more richer the experience would've been! The FF IV soundtrack still ranks as one of my favorites, and the SNES did a fine job (with its Sony sound chip, I believe), but I would've loved for all of it to have been in the redbook audio format! But hey, in some cases, the good music (in its original form) that couldn't be put into the game allowed for them to put it elsewhere: a separately sold soundtrack CD for extra profit.
Your opinion is very similar to how I felt in the 90's, and I agree even now that music tracks need to be fully recorded in order to reach their full arrangement potential. (Or at least have a chance of reaching that potential. There are certainly plenty of fully recorded tracks that one can argue could have been arranged better.) In essence, fully recorded music is technically superior, and the only reason we had chiptunes in retro games is due to hardware limitations. However, most of us grew accustomed to video games being accompanied by chiptunes from a relatively young age. So, when it's all said and done it may be a very strange and illogical quirk that many retro gamers have, but we have developed a nostalgic fondness for chiptunes. It's probably similar to nostalgic feelings someone might have from hearing the sound of bowling pins being knocked down, the smell of cotton candy at a fair, or the noises associated with listening to a vinyl record. I know there are many reasons one might enjoy retro games such as the addictive simplicity of the gameplay, or just a general preference for 2D art over 3D. But, in the end, isn't it also the graphical and processing limitations of old gaming hardware and the nostalgic feelings associated with them that is one of the main reasons that old timers like me play retro games to begin with?
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: T2KFreeker on April 15, 2012, 04:18:35 PM
But for the Turbo in particular it does seem most hucard games don't do too much with music. Someone mentioned Air Zonk and that's really the only game I know of where I feel the music is interesting.
There are some truly extraordinary hucard soundtracks. Feel free to check out a website I recently put together to sample some of the goodness: http://turbomusic.risemedia.org (http://turbomusic.risemedia.org/). I'd at LEAST check out Dragon Spirit, Soldier Blade, Devil's Crush, and Dungeon Explorer. Also, I'll be adding another 15 or so soundtracks in the next couple of days.
/self-promoting-plug :)
Not to mention the soundtracks for Ninja Spirit and Legendary Axe II. Those games have awesome music.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Tatsujin on April 15, 2012, 04:23:21 PM
I love both, chip tunes and redbook, it always depends of how and where it is used.
GoT, WoT, Saphhire, Nexzr, Star parodia, Drac X etc. are so much awesomer because their redbook BGMs. I cound't imagine those games were such awesome if they had chip tunes instead. As I said before, the PCE is quite unique of how it used the advantages of the CD-Rom medium at such an early stage. Even much later released systems still hadn't that same kind of usage and magic, as the pce had.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 16, 2012, 06:36:41 PM
Lemme correct something right quick: I mistakenly said, "Dolby Surround 2.0" when that was totally wrong... It's technically Dolby Surround 4.0, but nobody really promotes or refers to it that way; it's referred to as "Dolby Pro Logic" and its successor is "Dolby Digital 5.1" (for that, they do use 5.1 at times). "Dolby Surround 2.0" implies 2 channels (2.0 wasn't a form of versioning), and you can ALREADY refer to a 2 channel set up as stereo... Duh!
I was under the impression that Roland Sound Space was just like...reverb. Its a two channel effect, and therefore not matrixed like Dolby Surround.
Hm, doesn't sound all that useful. Maybe Chris would care to comment if he notices this thread.
Quote
Dolby Surround actually hides four channels in the space of two. Its f*cking GENIUS as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't sound anywhere near as good as Dolby Digital or DTS, but it took a lot more brains to make it happen, it rolled out decades earlier, and its fully compatible with much older gear.
Yeah, it was a great idea that only got better. It might be getting a little excessive with DigitalPlus, though. Like I'm ever seriously gonna set up 13 speakers for 13 friggin' channels in my entertainment area! Come on, what the f*ck? Dolby TrueHD stops at 8 channels, and I guess 2 extra speakers in between the front pair and the rear pair isn't going overboard, but I do wonder just how much of an extra benefit that adds to the surround effect...
Quote
Regarding Wii and GC games with Dolby Surround (Dolby Surround II, in these cases): The systems themselves officially support the process, so you'd think the game makers would just be able to use the process without individual certification...doesn't that make sense? It seems like it would be this way. I don't know.
It kinda does, but I suppose Dolby wants to make licensing as lucrative as possible, so case-by-case basis would be more preferable. Then again, why are they not enforcing their licensing rights if companies are actually encoding sound using their techniques without authorization ?
Quote
As for hearing Dolby Surround-like effects come out of your system when it isn't officially there in the source: this is possible. Especially with the lots of reverb and stuff. It is certainly possible for the Pro Logic circuit to place certain things more in one channel than the other out of simple coincidence. Its also possible that it was put in there for real and they just skipped the certification. Also, if you were running in one of those special DSP modes like Hall, Concert, Jazz, whatever...anything can happen in those modes, especially on cheaper gear.
Well, check these videos out below and lemme know what you think! I really wanted to know if it was the case that they were using Dolby encoding techniques without a license so I did some investigating. It's just something that really caught my interest. So I said, what the hell, lemme do this myself because I doubt somebody else will. I took my SNES out of its box, got my FF IV (II) cart and Game Genie, plugged everything in and gave it a shot. Mind you, this SNES has been sitting in my attic for, I dunno, 17-18 years now (has it been that long?), along with all my games, so I didn't expect things to work right off the bat, let alone find any saved state support. The game loaded with the Game Genie, and lo and behold, I saw all 4 save slots with saved games! (THAT was a surprise cause I thought those CR2032 Lithium batteries last just about 10 years max!) But, the 4th slot would show a graphical glitch, so I turned the system off and tried to connect the game without the genie, but NOW it would NOT load at all, just a black screen! So I got rubbing alcohol and a q-tip to clean the contacts which made the q-tip mildly dark & dirty, so it needed it! Tried again, and presto, now it worked!
Anyhow, I wrote up more details in the first link, so that sets things up. Turns out that you didn't have to look far to find a surround effect: the opening theme music demonstrates one very nicely! I wish I could say something definitively here though, but my Dolby decoder/receiver is too old (my 2nd one burned out on me...). It's either very awesome with simulating surround effects when they're not present or a Dolby encoding technique was used, but I don't know for sure either way I'm afraid.
** Actual Dolby Pro Logic surround processing or simulated??
Example #1: - Opening theme music Example #1: (HQ shorter version, & I up'ed the preamp levels; the center channel's use is more evident)
Example #2: - Final Boss Battle music
I could've definitely ruled out the use of DSP modes prior to the videos, I never liked them... The receiver has Stadium, Church, Dance, too, along with the rest that you listed, etc. but all of 'em always sucked to me. The only two modes that I liked and used were Dolby Surround and Theater and the only difference between the two is the equalization: Theater mode just loads a preset equalization emphasizing more bass, so better to watch DVD movies with, but the Dolby Pro Logic surround processing is still in effect.
It's probably similar to nostalgic feelings someone might have from hearing the sound of ...... or the noises associated with listening to a vinyl record.
Ah, say no more! That's probably the best possible equivalency to have made: vinyl records - even though the CD format brought perfect audio recording and playback, there are those that still love the classic sound of vinyl records and all the glorious imperfections associated with them! Heh-heh.
Quote
But, in the end, isn't it also the graphical and processing limitations of old gaming hardware and the nostalgic feelings associated with them that is one of the main reasons that old timers like me play retro games to begin with?
My nostalgia strictly stems from just remembering having had a good time with these games or with, say, special cases like Ys, the music and whatnot! I hate NES graphics, it feels like Atari 2600 to me now, and even though I had a good time with the system as a kid, I'd have to force myself to try to play something on the system now... Even PCE/SNES with very few exceptions... I appreciate them for what they offered at the time, and obviously still do at some level since I'm in a forum like this and the translation projects I did, but still, I find it difficult to play games of the past. I thought that with the ZSNES emulator I was gonna be busy for A LONG time when I discovered it in late ~2001, but all I ever played on it was Terranigma and Final Fantasy V (eh, maybe a handful of others); I tried to play SD3 with Neill's translation patch, but lost interest eventually. Anyways, it's all good, I can understand your feelings even if I don't quite share 'em.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: ccovell on April 16, 2012, 08:33:15 PM
Hm, doesn't sound all that useful. Maybe Chris would care to comment if he notices this thread.
Nothing I can add since I don't know anything about channel multiplexing/demultiplexing.
Except that Super Turrican should be on that list of Dolby ProLogic-encoded SNES games. They even put that feature in their ads.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 16, 2012, 09:50:22 PM
I'm going to have to borrow a cart from a friend or something and try this on equipment I understand (my own shit, in other words).
Regarding terminology: Terms like 2.0 and 4.0 and 5.1 didn't come about until Dolby Digital 5.1. Any number smaller than 5.1 is retcon bullshit. Four channels matrixed into two is called Dolby Surround. This was the term used to describe the process when they developed it to work with the optical tracks on 35mm film. The same trick can be used on any semi-decent stereo recording. Pro Logic is the term that describes the circuit in a home receiver that decodes Dolby Surround. Pro Logic II is the same except five channels are hidden in the stereo and not four.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 16, 2012, 10:20:03 PM
Dracula X, Snatcher, and Gradius II, all on CD by Konami, use Roland Sound Space for some kind of [simulated] surround effect.
Zeta said that Roland Sound Space was just pretty much like reverb and what not. I thought you might know more details about RSS since you referred to it as a [simulated] surround effect, etc. That's all you knew about it, then? No biggie, thought I'd ask.
I'm going to have to borrow a cart from a friend or something and try this on equipment I understand (my own shit, in other words).
What would be nice is a receiver/decoder that actually somehow indicates what kind of audio signal that it's decoding, be it a) Dolby Surround (the first form was 3 channels apparently), b) Dolby Pro Logic, c) Dolby Digital 5.1, c) DTS, whatever. That's what's needed here... I dunno what you got, but I'm sure it can't be as old as mine! ;) If you read some of my blurb, I had a more modern RCA unit with 5.1 support (optical input), but the damn thing burned out on me, so I had to go back to this ole Sony model that I bought in ~1996; it still works and I never got rid of it, so until I find a decent replacement and extra cash to burn, I'm stuck with it... Kinda cool though, it's still got a few tricks up its sleeve as you can see from the videos! :)
I can speculate why any type of surround sound support with the SNES (and all before it) would be news to many people... AV receiver/decoder units were way too expensive back then (what I use in the videos debuted at $549 though I got it for ~$400) so very few people likely owned one when the 16-bit era was in full swing! It was ~1996-97 by the time I bought my first one and now the 32-bit PS1 era was in full swing! The only reason I brought my SNES out of retirement was because I scored a copy of FF IV for $5 bucks from this resale shop that I used to hang out at (I beat the game years ago via rentals I believe)... I used to do VCR repairs for them: they'd buy broken VCRs for cheap, give 'em to me, and if I could fix them, I'd make a little chump change and they'd resell 'em. Once in a blue moon, they'd throw a good deal my way as a perk, etc. This time it was FF IV for cheap, and if not for that, I never would've gone back to the SNES and hooked it up to this new audio equipment that I had purchased with movie enjoyment in mind!
Quote
Pro Logic is the term that describes the circuit in a home receiver that decodes Dolby Surround.
Well, an attempt is made to deal with the confusion that Dolby caused with their terminology choices there. That's why I corrected myself. This part is of note, "Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic decoders are similar in principle, as both use matrix technology to extract extra channels from stereo-encoded audio. However, Dolby Surround only decodes the rear surround channel, while Dolby Pro Logic also decodes the center channel." - They are using "Dolby Pro Logic" as a proper label for a 1987 improvement over "Dolby Surround [3.0]" allowing for 4 channels for the home setting instead of 3 (as was the case with "Dolby Surround"). I know what you're saying about the circuit though and you're right, there is a general usage of Dolby Surround if audio has been encoded with some form of it, etc.. Anyway, I'm just gonna go with the chart that they got on that link. I think I understand what happened, but it's still confusing somewhat.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Black Tiger on April 17, 2012, 04:13:26 AM
Although I never knew about FFIV's surround sound, I remember how mags bitd made a big deal out of Super Turrican's surround sound.
Super Darius also has surround sound. I assume that it's only for the music, since it wouldn't be much use for any of the sound effects. Dungeon Explorer would be a great game for surround sound. The original positions the sound effects across the left and right speakers depending on the horizontal position of what is making the sound. I don't remember if it is used for more than player's shots. Anyway, surround sound could be used to give the sound effects vertical positioning as well.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Tatsujin on April 17, 2012, 04:43:59 AM
all around surround sound.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 17, 2012, 06:47:44 AM
Yeah, come to think of it, real Dolby Surround systems were pretty rare in 1992 or whenever this game came out. However, people in Japan will buy basically anything...
My main receiver is a Harmon Kardon AVR235. This isn't exactly brand new (2004) but it has several HK-exclusive settings that do as much or more with matrixed surround than any receiver since. The Logic 7 mode in particular does a freaking AMAZING job of making four channel DS sound nearly as good as DD. When listening to something like Mario Galaxy (made for Pro Logic 2) you'd swear it was DD. I was watching Gundam F91 the other day (the Final Version laserdisc) and what Logic 7 does with a four channel track is nothing short of amazing. Believe me, I'm no sucker for bullshit DSP modes, but this thing is for real.
However, no matter how fancy the receiver is, it can't tell if something is actually DS or not. Maybe some are clever enough to make a guess, but they won't always be right. When they invented this system you'd think they could have put some sort of flag in a sub signal to identify the signal type, but they didn't. The circuitry they used for DPL decoding 25 years ago was incredibly simple compared to the stuff we have now, like Logic 7. Also, the signal is pretty crammed already, so maybe they left it out for bandwidth considerations. Regardless, depending on what sort of signal is there, its quite possible, like I said, for a DPL decoder to separate things into channels based on shear coincidence. I bet this happens all the time with certain types of music that use some of the more interesting synthesizer sounds.
Watching the video you made with that display that shows exactly whats coming out of each speaker...it really really looks like this was intentional. It also looks like it works really well. And yeah, this would be Dolby Surround since that was the only form of Surround Sound that existed back then other than Quadraphonic (which was dead by then, but technically very similar).
As for RSS: This isn't really a video game thing. All the RSS parts are in the redbook music. Therefore, its not, strictly speaking, a video game related expertise question. The person to ask RSS would be anyone with a large collection of Roland keyboards and modules since they've been building it into stuff for ages. I think they still do. AFAIK, its basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers. What it really means: the music in Drax was made by Roland keyboards, which is something we probably already knew. :)
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: vestcoat on April 17, 2012, 08:58:26 AM
AFAIK, [RSS] is basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers.
RSS attempts to create a 3D field with just stereo speakers by using subtle techniques like binaural recording, combfiltering, and processing slight changes in the L/R frequency response. It's not terribly effective because all of this is generated by Roland gear or through extra processors in the audio mastering stage and there's no way to predict everyone's receiver model, speaker frequency response and configuration, room acoustics, listening position, head size, and hearing loss.
DSPs on receivers will create a 3D field if surround speakers are present, but their main use to the simulate the characteristics of different environments. Typically, this means hyping the mix with lots of artificial EQ, reverb, delay, and early reflections. Cinemas are very dead acoustically, so "movie" is extra bassy with no reflections. "Live" uses long reflections to simulate a large venue. When used with surround sound, certain frequencies are prioritized in the rear speakers - my "jazz" setting seems to use the rear speakers almost exclusively for high frequencies with sharp transients (i.e. cymbals and snare); "live" uses the rear speakers for mostly just reverb and some mid-range sounds with a slow attack (applause).
Zeta - you probably already know most of this, but I wanted to clarify that RSS/DSP comparison a bit.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Black Tiger on April 17, 2012, 10:10:21 AM
Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: kazekirifx on April 17, 2012, 02:30:30 PM
Ys IV had the RSS logo too, didn't it? I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean :-" Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring') there is one part in there where one sound gradually shifts from one channel to the other, and when wearing headphones it really feels like the sound is a blob going in one year, gradually making its way through your brain, and then coming out the other ear. Maybe this didn't have anything to do with RSS, but it was a cool stereo effect anyway.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: vestcoat on April 17, 2012, 03:47:22 PM
Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.
Oh cool. I guess I've never seen an English manual for an RSS game. Are there instructions online anywhere? Are the speakers and listener just an equidistant triangle?
That's what it looks like in this demonstration video: Youtube compresses audio terribly, but I do hear some 3D effects at 2:10 and 4:14 Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49? A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: NightWolve on April 17, 2012, 04:24:53 PM
Yeah, I just looked at my Ys IV case, it does have a RSS logo in the front. Never quite noticed it compared to Dracula X cause of the color choices between font v. background of the manuals... Well, vestcoat answered my question about it in FULL. That about covers that! And that RSS video you found was awesome! I figured it had to be a little bit more fancy than cheap stereo and/or reverb effects if publishers are going to the trouble of displaying a logo and likely paying a license fee for it.
Quote
I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean :-" Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring')
*shakes fist*
Why...you NO GOOD ROTTEN $#$!?!#!?!#@!... HOW DARE YOU! Hehe, don't worry man. I think I know what track you're referring to, and yeah, there are some boring ones on there I recall. ;)
Concerning FF IV: I do wanna add that until someone can prove Dolby surround support with an A/V receiver/decoder unit that can detect what type of Dolby signal it's processing, if present, don't draw a firm conclusion from the FF IV sound tests in my videos... To borrow material from esteban, all they proved was that a, "truly immersive FF IV surround sound experience" is possible with basic Home Theater Systems given a stereo signal.
Zeta, here's why I'm unsure: Since the unit doesn't have an indicator of any kind, I wanted to be thorough and try other stereo signals to find a case where I would NOT get ANY surround effects while using the 1st Dolby Surround processing mode. So I tried music CDs and sure enough, EVERYTHING was enhanced with surround effects! I looked for the oldest CD I could find, still, awesome surround effects were exhibited! Then I said, OK, what happens with a mono signal? Let's see what it does then! So I got my VCR and an old VHS tape where I had recorded some NES games I had beat as a kid. So I hook it all up, the first game on the tape is Shadowgate, I rewind and let it play, and NOW the Sony unit finally refuses to produce surround effects: it's only powering the front 3 speakers, L/R equally, with an emphasis on the center speaker, but NO rear channel support! However, when I disconnect one RCA connector from the unit, let's say the right one and I leave the left one connected, the unit responds by playing the left channel AND the rear channel (hence you get output from both rear speakers), almost equally mind you, though... So it's like, a basic stereo effect whereby the Left channel is playing, but the Right channel is lowered, will cause a boost in the rear channel of the surround processing unit, etc. if that makes sense. So there's a basic decision the circuit is making right there to create a surround effect without any Dolby specific encoding technique... At least, so it would appear...
Anyway, I hijacked this thread enough about this, but I thought it was all very interesting. And I don't think I ever got to mention to anybody about the FF IV [simulated or not] surround sound effects I got to enjoy the last time I played it. Now there are videos! Hehe. It's no wonder that the FF IV soundtrack ranks as one of my favorites right alongside Ys Book I&II and III, etc. Long story short, Home Theater Systems are DEFINITELY worth it and they're a lot more affordable these days with packages that usually include all of the surround speakers with subwoofer!!!!
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 17, 2012, 05:29:46 PM
I'm going to track down some SNES carts and try this out. I'll start a new thread for it when I do.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: ccovell on April 17, 2012, 06:55:08 PM
Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49? A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?
Yes, Xenon 2 CDTV.
The "sound effects" aren't that of the released game, obviously. They were dubbed in by the TV studio guys there to "illustrate" what 3D sound would sound like for games.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2012, 12:45:45 AM
Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49? A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?
Yes, Xenon 2 CDTV.
The "sound effects" aren't that of the released game, obviously. They were dubbed in by the TV studio guys there to "illustrate" what 3D sound would sound like for games.
Xenon 2. I want to play this game. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Tatsujin on April 18, 2012, 02:45:28 AM
Pump up teh Volume - bomb teh bass - teh megablast (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: Tatsujin on April 18, 2012, 02:48:22 AM
Damn, I just found out, over all the years, that the main melody of that track is taken from the john carpenters "Assault on Precinct 13" BGM. damndamndamn.
Title: Re: Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2012, 09:18:02 AM
Damn, I just found out, over all the years, that the main melody of that track is taken from the john carpenters "Assault on Precinct 13" BGM. damndamndamn.
Wait, which tune (from which game) is taken from the movie?