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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: spenoza on April 17, 2012, 10:53:01 AM
Title: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 17, 2012, 10:53:01 AM
I've watched a longplay of the PCE version of PoP on YouTube, and I have to say I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed on a number of levels. Color use is pretty poor for one. Also, for all the different frames of animation, it still looks more jerky and stilted than it should. Other than a few interesting musical tracks, does this game have any redeeming qualities? How does it compare to other console ports of this title? Most of my experience is with the B&W Mac port, which I think was fantastic.
And just reviewed some more YouTube footage. Even the original Apple II version somehow seems more smoothly animated and coherent than the PCE version. WTF, PCE? The Genny version seems pretty good. They preserved the Mac and PC sound effects, which were perfect, and though the backgrounds are a little busy at times, the animation seems to hold up well. The SNES version is just wonky and I don't like it. The animation looks weird, the sound effects were needlessly changed, and the music is annoying and takes away too much focus from the game. The PCE version should have looked more like the Genny version. There's nothing the Genny version does that the PCE couldn't.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: soop on April 17, 2012, 11:43:37 AM
I think the original was basically rotoscoped. props to the Amiga version. I nearly picked up the PCE version recently, but now you@ve given me pause for thought
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Bernie on April 17, 2012, 11:44:24 AM
I had it.. I hated it.. I got rid of it... :(
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Tatsujin on April 17, 2012, 01:20:20 PM
LOL
I own it, but I probably had never popped it in ever before :lol:
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Black Tiger on April 17, 2012, 01:54:30 PM
The gameplay is great and alone justifies the game. The Sega-CD version is also mediocre visually. The Genesis version looks amazing, but I don't see how the PCE version could have used its visuals since it's from two years in the future.
I bought PoP for Turbo-CD bitd and was happy with it.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - Good!
Post by: vestcoat on April 17, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Prince of Persia was one of my first games and I played it quite a bit. I've never played any other ports, but compared to the SCD titles, it's a solid platform/puzzler and holds its own in the Duo library. The controls take some getting used to, they're very fluid and somewhat laggy, but they never became frustrating. In fact, I'd say the gameplay falls just short of addictive. There are a lot of speed settings available, making it easy to blaze through familiar areas and drop to slow motion when a fight occurs. I generally had a good time exploring, finding secret areas, and mucking about, but the game is very hard, especially with the time limit. The ten save slots are very useful - one slot can be used for the fastest stage clears in an attempt to meet the 1hr deadline while the other nine can save the game at each new level, providing the equivalent to an unlockable "stage select" feature. If you get stuck on one level, you can still do something productive by going back and trying to shave a few minutes off of earlier stages. This adds to the replay value and eases the difficulty somewhat. The music is good if you don't mind listening to the harmonic minor scale for several hours.
But don't take my word for it! Here's what VG&CE had to say: (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/ClarkJames/princepersia0001.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/ClarkJames/princepersia0002.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/ClarkJames/princepersia0003.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/ClarkJames/princepersia0004.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/ClarkJames/princepersia0005.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: kazekirifx on April 17, 2012, 02:37:40 PM
My bro got the Sega CD version at the same time I got the Turbo version and we played them along side each other. Other than the added cut scenes in the Sega CD version the Turbo seemed to have a slight edge. The color is definitely nicer (as you would expect), and we both preferred the music arrangements in the Turbo version. Maybe there are better versions than these two, but at least the Turbo holds its own against Sega's similar hardware in this case.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Tatsujin on April 17, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Keith Courage on April 17, 2012, 08:15:47 PM
I like Prince of Persia. Either you like it or you don't. I hardly find anyone who is in the middle ground. I just think it's fun game. I never really thought too much about the colors or graphics. The SNES version looks much better and has extra levels. Then again, all the original levels are only about %50 the same in it so I'd probably qualify it as a different version of POP all together.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: jperryss on April 18, 2012, 12:52:01 AM
If the PCE version is the same as the US SCD version, then the game is awesome and I loved it as a kid. I don't remember how the graphics compare to SNES, etc. but the SNES version has extra stages compared to I think every other version.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: shubibiman on April 18, 2012, 06:39:41 AM
When I first playd Pop on the PCE, I was not disappointed at all as the only version of the game I had played to that time was the Amstrad CPC 6128 one. It could only be better.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 18, 2012, 08:28:40 AM
My complaint is not about PoP the game. I like the game. The Apple and Mac versions were both great, smooth playing and well animated. From the YT videos it appears the later Sega MD/Genny version is both as well. The video footage of the TG/PCE version, the SNES version, and to an extent the Mega CD version have a weird lack of smoothness that the others don't. There are enough frames of animation, but they don't flow together as well, and the motion appears jerky and inconsistent in places. I'll need to play the PCE version first-hand to confirm as it could be are result of the videos, but it seems consistent across the various posters of video to YT.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Black Tiger on April 18, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
My complaint is not about PoP the game. I like the game. The Apple and Mac versions were both great, smooth playing and well animated. From the YT videos it appears the later Sega MD/Genny version is both as well. The video footage of the TG/PCE version, the SNES version, and to an extent the Mega CD version have a weird lack of smoothness that the others don't. There are enough frames of animation, but they don't flow together as well, and the motion appears jerky and inconsistent in places. I'll need to play the PCE version first-hand to confirm as it could be are result of the videos, but it seems consistent across the various posters of video to YT.
They likely all use the original game's frames as a base and update from there. It's much easier to have smooth and fluid looking animation without definition. Once future ports attempted to add 3rd dimensions at such a low resolution, it introduced so many more variables to line up. They all do a good job under the circumstances. The Genesis version clearly received much more care and attention overall for the visuals and it probably has the exact same frames for each sprite, only more successfully balanced.
But in the end we're not talking about a single poor port so much as a single great one. Which is a big difference.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 18, 2012, 05:58:05 PM
Once future ports attempted to add 3rd dimensions at such a low resolution, it introduced so many more variables to line up.
I'm not sure what this sentence means. What 3rd dimension? The original Apple version was likely running at a similar resolution. Apple II hi-res was 280×192, which isn't too different from the PCE's most-used resolution. The lower color counts (7, including black and white) simply make it look blockier. The Apple II original looks really smooth. Sure, the PC and Amiga ports were higher resolution but they were also still pretty simple. The later Mac port was 512x342 was thus higher resolution than the PC and Amiga ports and looked incredible in both color and black and white, so changing resolution wasn't a problem for a good developer. In fact, the C64 port looks like it used the lower resolution color mode and the animation is pretty smooth there, too.
But in the end we're not talking about a single poor port so much as a single great one. Which is a big difference.
Looks kinda like I'm talking about 3 lesser ports from where I'm sitting. But again, I'm going to take some time to check out the PCE version in person just to make sure. POP is a game that really needs that smooth animation, for some reason. It just doesn't work without it.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 18, 2012, 06:08:16 PM
he found his disks and recovered them. It's one of the greatest gestures ever.
Yeah, that's part of what prompted me to do some poking around to learn about the various ports. From all accounts Mechner is a pretty hoopy frood. I'm really glad he's made the code available. Almost makes me want to aim for eventually doing a new PCE port ; )
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 18, 2012, 07:23:45 PM
Well, porting from Apple II to PCE won't exactly be a walk in the park since the Apple II's display is radically different.
You'd be better off just "from scratch"ing it.
all the clever tricks and such used on the Apple II will be a lost cause on the PCE.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 18, 2012, 07:36:31 PM
OK, after just a little playaround with the actual title, it does seem that the frame rate is too low on this port. There appear to be animation frames missing in some places (very noticeable when jumping - looks a little too much like teleporting). The falling floor and ceiling tiles flicker just a tad before the fall and seem to have no heft to them. Also, the sound effects should have been ADPCM samples (this is a frikkin CD game) instead of PSG effects. I dunno. I really think this was just a half-assed port. There's nothing in PoP that the PCE couldn't do well and I'm disappointed that this port is so lackluster. It seems to be the worst of the home console ports, and that shouldn't be the case. It looks just a hair better than the Sega CD port (when not in motion), but the Sega CD version has the right sound effects and the game seems just a tad more solid, for lack of a better descriptor. Even though the Sega CD version seems just a hair shy on frames as well, they flow together a hair better.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 18, 2012, 08:54:59 PM
I think you only notice the flaws if you compare them side by side or something.
I've played every port of this game.
I like the Apple II and the PCE versions the most. The controls on the PCE one seem to jive better with me than the other console ports. Everything feels more responsive.
The apple II one probably works the best since it is the original. The C64 one was pretty spot-on too but never controls as nice for me.
I think the SNES one is the worst because of the stupid TRAINING!!123231!!1 shit they put in the game.
The intro is great though.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 19, 2012, 11:20:21 AM
Not if the Mac version isn't at the top of your list ; )
You must be special: "I like the Apple II and the PCE versions the most...... The apple II one probably works the best since it is the original."
The Mac version was specially redone. It was in a higher resolution, had redone artwork, and the control was spot on. It was the pinnacle of the original titles.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: SuperDeadite on April 20, 2012, 05:30:08 AM
I have the X68000 version. Very nice animation and music, though it's a port of the PC-9801 version. There is also the FM Towns version which is the same game again, but redbook audio.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Necromancer on April 20, 2012, 05:41:18 AM
The Mac version was specially redone. It was in a higher resolution, had redone artwork, and the control was spot on. It was the pinnacle of the original titles.
Oh, I see.... I must be special. :oops:
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: jperryss on April 20, 2012, 05:57:32 AM
And I would have loved some training for the sword fights, I don't think I ever got past one as a kid.
I decided to fire this one up again and played through it based on this thread.
At least on the turbob version, the swordfights are easy. There are basically three enemies. The first one (mostly brown I think) you can just walk towards and keep stabbing. At most, he will block the first poke and you hit him on the second poke (don't use the turbo switches or try to hit the button rapidly, just hold it and it will auto-swing for you).
The second one (mostly blue) hold up to defend, as soon as he swings at you release and hit the swing button to hit him.
This pattern also works for the last two guys, as well as the fat guy you come across around (I think) stage 6, but sometimes they will block and you have to quickly defend again.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 20, 2012, 06:24:55 AM
The Mac version was specially redone. It was in a higher resolution, had redone artwork, and the control was spot on. It was the pinnacle of the original titles.
Oh, I see.... I must be special. :oops:
I think we can both be special. And you missed the little grinny face at the end of my original post. But yes, the Mac version is widely regarded as the peak of the original PoP.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 20, 2012, 08:21:43 AM
I prefer the jacked Apple II display and sound. It's borderline creepy.
and,the Mac version is too bright and cartoony for my tastes. I don't feel creeped out while playing it because it looks like some Aladdin bullshit.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 20, 2012, 08:27:16 AM
I prefer the jacked Apple II display and sound. It's borderline creepy.
and,the Mac version is too bright and cartoony for my tastes. I don't feel creeped out while playing it because it looks like some Aladdin bullshit.
I was never able to play it in color. I always played it in black and white, which actually looked pretty good, if simple, and was still really well animated. And most importantly, the control was really solid.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 20, 2012, 05:50:53 PM
I can't imagine the Macintosh remake (1992ish?) in B&W
that has to look retarded.
The original on a composite screen, is so awesome. also, the sound effects achieved on a stock apple // are pretty impressive.
Apple // has really interesting animation characteristics, and the colors are pretty dumb at first, but I've found they grow on you. solid stuff.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 20, 2012, 06:05:03 PM
I can't imagine the Macintosh remake (1992ish?) in B&W
that has to look retarded.
Surprisingly, it does not. Many Mac games had separate B&W graphics since, at that time, a lot of Mac owners were still using B&W machines (like the SE30, which was quite powerful despite lacking color in the display). So these were graphics created from scratch to work well in black and white. Didn't take up much space in the resource fork since monochrome graphics are inherently small.
There are 3 pictures in this set at MobyGames: http://www.mobygames.com/game/macintosh/prince-of-persia/screenshots
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 21, 2012, 06:12:45 PM
oh boy. it looks like a Spectrum game.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 22, 2012, 10:36:28 AM
As I can't find any YouTube video footage of the B&W version, you'll just have to trust me that it looks good in motion, and thanks to the Mac sound hardware, sounds good, too. The higher resolution helps, also.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 22, 2012, 05:50:10 PM
searched for "Mac prince of persia black and white"
first hit.
It looks as good as any of the others in motion. Even the Apple II one.
All of them look good in motion, really.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 22, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
I found that video but it doesn't count. It only shows a couple seconds of game and doesn't have any sound to go with it, either.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: grahf on April 22, 2012, 09:20:03 PM
I just fired up the PCE version the other day, and finally played it through to the end of level 2.
I gotta say that it's actually pretty good. The controls seem fine, and the graphics and sound are both good. The Save/Load feature is a little crappy, forcing you to exit to the menu before you can load. I guess they did that on purpose though, because otherwise it would feel an awful lot like it had save-states. That kinda thing would totally ruin the challenge in a game like this.
So, pretty good version of the game IMO. I think I'll play it through this week.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 23, 2012, 03:12:36 AM
I found that video but it doesn't count. It only shows a couple seconds of game and doesn't have any sound to go with it, either.
It shows enough. and, we are talking about visuals, so sound is irrelevant.
It looks like a Spectrum game. Monochrome with very well animation. Shadow of the Beast on Spectrum, and Double Dragon, both look great for being monochrome.
They still blow compared to colorful stuff. (Except for Double Dragon on C64, which is awful forever)
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: SuperDeadite on April 23, 2012, 03:20:52 AM
searched for "Mac prince of persia black and white"
first hit.
It looks as good as any of the others in motion. Even the Apple II one.
All of them look good in motion, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_qnLmfxhS0
Crazy, the Mac version looks identical to the Japanese computer versions, just in black and white. Even the "high-res" game screen with the lifebar on the outside is identical to the X68000 version.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 23, 2012, 04:14:26 AM
Not really that crazy considering the mac was using a 68k too, lol
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: spenoza on April 23, 2012, 04:42:12 AM
The Mac version was the template for later ports. It was specially re-done. If the Japanese computer ports came after, they would have used the Mac version as the base since it was the best port at the time.
Personally, I think the Mac B&W looks much better than the Spectrum version.
And I agree that the PCE version controls well. Still, there's something missing in the animation and the animation thus looks hinky at times and not as smooth or seamless as it should, IMO.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 23, 2012, 05:57:10 AM
The best way to play PoP, IMO, is to use a 1084S, press the green button, and plug a duo-r into it.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: esteban on April 24, 2012, 12:52:22 AM
After reading through this thread (and wondering how the PCE port compares to the other versions), I realize that I will simply have to play it tonight and decide for myself.
Also, I am hoping it isn't too frustrating for my daughter to try. I was older than her when I first played PoP, but I think she might like this game. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: jperryss on April 24, 2012, 01:31:46 AM
Also, I am hoping it isn't too frustrating for my daughter to try. I was older than her when I first played PoP, but I think she might like this game. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
If she gets frustrated, adjusting the movement or battle speeds might help.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 24, 2012, 01:38:14 AM
if she gets frustrated, throw her in a pit!
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: esteban on April 26, 2012, 12:28:04 AM
UPDATE: Thus far, instead of playing Prince of Persia, I have played Elevator Action and Burgertime. I want to sharpen her reflexes a bit. Don't worry, Prince of Persia is coming soon. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Also, I am hoping it isn't too frustrating for my daughter to try. I was older than her when I first played PoP, but I think she might like this game. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
If she gets frustrated, adjusting the movement or battle speeds might help.
Yes, that's a very good idea, thanks (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png).
Only if it is a pit of spikes. You have to be precise with familial matters.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: Arkhan on April 26, 2012, 01:35:12 AM
Elevator Action is hood gangsterific, and shit
Elevator Action returns is one of the greatest games ever made.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: BigusSchmuck on April 27, 2012, 07:21:32 AM
Am I the only one who liked the snes version? :P Personally, I would rather see a port of the DOS version considering thats the one I grew up on. Anyway, the turbo version seems to be closer to the pc version as the snes version (as others have stated) is almost a completely new game and should be considered as such.
Title: Re: Prince of Persia - disappointing
Post by: esteban on April 28, 2012, 05:59:12 AM
I never played the SNES version of PoP.
Also, it SHOULD have been titled "Super Prince of Persia "