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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 12:32:51 PM
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 12:32:51 PM
What's everyone's religion here? I have basically been an atheist my whole life along with everyone else in my family except my mother, who is Baptist and our family only went to church for a little bit when we were all very young. For the past two years, I was always curious about religion since I didn't know much to anything about it, and I learned some of my answers for Christianity, even though I wasn't one but it's the main religion out here in America, so it seemed like the only religion I could really learn about. Around last March though, I wanted to know why there was such a big deal with Muslims and I learned about Islam and the more I read about it, the more it made sense to me and didn't disinterest me like the other religions. I still have no religion, but I do want to convert to Islam a little later in my life. I received a free Quran from a online friend recently and I thanked him greatly for it because the Quran is simply amazing with the stuff it speaks of. It even has some scientific information that science didn't even discover until much, much later, like how man is created. Post your religion and thoughts if you want.
Title: Religion
Post by: TJ on November 16, 2005, 01:16:32 PM
I was raised Catholic, which of course means I'm now a full-blown Satanist.
I used to skip church to go to the arcade. I'm going straight to hell for videogames and it's gonna be worth every frickin' second of it.
Actually, although I was raised Catholic as a kid, it wasn't long until I realized it was for the birds and I pretty much feel that way about Christianity in general. I got to a point where I experienced, simultaneously, the best and worst year of my life at that time, and I realized that I not only reached goals and achieved good things without praying for them, but also made it through toughest times without asking for any divine influence to help. It was at that point that I knew for sure that I'd be without religion and honestly, I have not looked back nor regretted it since.
So I guess I'm an atheist, or maybe an agnostic at best. If I was going to get into any religion, I think I'd be interested in Buddhism, because it's really all about being the best self you can be. Unfortunately I think they also give up any desire for material posessions, and well, that kinda disqualifies me. So I guess I'm just gonna coast thru life on my own.
These are strictly my own views, though -- I'm not at all against anyone wishing to subscribe to whatever they wanna believe in. Whatever makes you happy and gets ya through the night, go ahead and get into it!
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: "Tee Jay"
I was raised Catholic, which of course means I'm now a full-blown Satanist.
:lol: !!!
I was like that for awhile, but maybe not quite as extreme. I always figured that religions were bullshit made up stories, but when I learned about Islam, I started to learn why believing in a religion gives you something to live for more and you can still be yourself.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 16, 2005, 01:22:34 PM
Raised baptist, but they were way too strict so I left when I was in my teens. Now when I attend church it's usually a non-denominational one so I don't have to put up with any bullshit like "You're only going to heaven if you're baptised in WATER! No sprinkling!" and all that legalistic crap. I'm still pretty conservative, but the churches I grew up in took it too far in my opinion, I mean hell they had no problems with catholicism and all it's made up bullshit that isn't in the Bible, yet insisted that every single mormon on earth was going to hell. I mean I totally agree that mormonism is f*cking retarded, but last I checked they believed Jesus was the son of God just like every other christian.
I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 01:26:02 PM
Luckily when I went to Church, they weren't strict like that and my mom isn't strict at all. I believe Mormons are wacky as well, but they can believe in what they want to believe in and I won't stop them, even if they were special underwear to protect them from demons when they sleep.
By the way, Islam believes in Jesus as well and it's quite similar to how Christians believe in him too, only a little different.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 16, 2005, 01:29:37 PM
Yeah I have no problems with Islam, there's some cool stuff there. It just needs to get pulled out of the stone age and get a facelift like Christianity has had to do to some extent. I can't imagine why on earth a woman would want to convert to islam for example, hah.
Title: Religion
Post by: TJ on November 16, 2005, 01:31:31 PM
Quote from: "GUTS"
I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.
No shit, huh?! That'd be the way to go. Of course, I don't see any reason we couldn't just decide to pray to Odin for victory and look forward to taking part in Ragnarok, until we are slain and cross that rainbow bridge to Valhalla.
Vikings frickin' rock.
Or I suppose I could just pray to Crom, like Conan the Barbarian.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 01:38:24 PM
Quote from: "GUTS"
Yeah I have no problems with Islam, there's some cool stuff there. It just needs to get pulled out of the stone age and get a facelift like Christianity has had to do to some extent. I can't imagine why on earth a woman would want to convert to islam for example, hah.
Haha, you don't actually have to dress the way typical Middle Eastern Muslims do. I'm not sure why they still do that exactly, maybe it's more of a traditional country life style thing instead of religion. I know for sure I'm not going to wear a turban every day, even though that might be pretty sweet at the same time.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 16, 2005, 02:11:19 PM
How could I forget about Crom, haha.
"Crom! I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought or how we died. No... all that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important. Valor pleases you Crom, so grant me one request... grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then the HELL with you!"
They should make kids say that in school every morning.
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 16, 2005, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: "TJ"
Quote from: "GUTS"
I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.
No shit, huh?! That'd be the way to go. Of course, I don't see any reason we couldn't just decide to pray to Odin for victory and look forward to taking part in Ragnarok, until we are slain and cross that rainbow bridge to Valhalla.
Vikings frickin' rock.
Or I suppose I could just pray to Crom, like Conan the Barbarian.
Oh yeah. I'm intrigued by the Celtic mythos as well, they had some really spooky stuff (Samhain, human / animal sacrifice, etc.).
I'd be scared as hell if I was transported back in time and witnessed that stuff.
Quote from: "way too long"
I pretty much had the same experiences as TJ: raised Roman Catholic, totally believed it and prayed every night as a kid. Then in 4th. grade, I started thinking about things.
My best friend was Presbyterian, so I got exposed to that. His dad was a minister (very kool -- if unstable -- dude). (Their youth group was awesome so I attended that through high school. It was all about having fun and doing community service.... no preaching.)
My mom's best friend was Jewish, so I had a blast hiding matzah crumbs and having "dreidel wars" with my psuedo-cousins.
It wasn't until middle school that I had enough balls to disappoint my entire family by going aetheist. It was at this time that all my aunts and uncles and grandma were becoming BORN AGAIN christians (just as bad as roman catholics, methinks).
Highlight: My grandma would give me booklets and pamphlets that warned me of the dangers of Dungeons & Dragons (she tried to convince my parents not to let me play, thankfully they didn't listen to her), Iron Maiden (she thought the felt posters in my room were horrible... she didn't like DIO either), etc. etc.
THIS IS ALSO WHEN MY MOM BEFRIENDED the Jehova Witnesses and they'd come by twice a week, indefinitely (they still see her to this day, in fact). So I started reading Awake! and The Watchtower (weekly publications) and learning about JW's beliefs.
Then I started listening to Alan Watts with my dad (a public station played his old lectures on the radio) and I learned a lot about Buddhism and religion in general.
At the same time, like lots of other corny suburban kids, I got even more interested in Buddhism when Youth of Today disbanded and Ray Cappo started Shelter. Hari Krishnas and local Buddhist temples often offered free vegetarian food after some of the punk / hardcore shows I attended, so naturally I grabbed the yummy food.
This culminated in me switching to a vegan diet.
I still go to local Buddhist temples for their free vegan food. Well, you should give a donation of $5, but you don't have to. If you ever find yourself near Hacienda Heights (southern california) on a saturday, I'll tell you where you can get the BEST DAMN vegetarian food. Bless those monks! They don't proselytize either... that wouldn't be their way.
And since I'm nice to the Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons who go door-to-door in my neighborhood, I have short talks with them weekly (it's like a mini bible study, actually!)
I'm hardcore atheist, but the sociology of religion intrigues me. I'm hardcore "division of church and state" as well.
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on November 16, 2005, 04:24:47 PM
Atheist. Been that way since I was like 9.I have always felt the bible was a twisted book with a set of rules written by a bunch of old men in a time period that if the wind blew the wrong way or it rained,it was because of the gods,or god.I dont buy that shit.We now know why the wind blows. We kno wwhy we have lightning,rain,floods,so on and so forth. The bible was a great tool for fear,and still works on plenty of"GOD FEARING" people,bu tthats the whole point isnt it,if such a god was so holy,and caring and loving,why should you have to be a so called god fearing good christian.Why should you have to feel fear,be worried of erternal damnation in hell,or whatever.Its all make believe bs fear tatics to control people.There are soem good religeons out there I think,wether I really believe in them or not,but I still recognize the change for the good they can have on people.If adrug abuser needs god as a crutch to kick meth,so be it.Not my say or care what the hell the doper believes.They were weak to begin with,otherwise they wouldnt have turned to drugs right? Maybe Im just being harsh? ? ? I dont know....I live in the bible belt area,but I didnt budge on my personal beliefs,even with all the red neck penticostal and baptist homing in on atheist like me,on a mission to save my poor soul from KMFDM,Time Killers,and Phantasm.I f*cking loved it when the Tall Man gave the priest the lecture in Phantasm 2.Kicked ass.If only the Tall Man was real........If only he was real and could be paid by the hour for that matter.....
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 16, 2005, 05:59:11 PM
I just don't get athiesm, I mean even if I wasn't partial to Christianity I would still believe in some sort of higher being.
One of the main reasons I've never gotten totally away from Christianity is that I've always believed evolution is the biggest crock of shit since people believing the world is flat. I mean the belief that over billions of years, with odds in the billions to one, that single celled organisms evolved into our perfectly ballanced and infinitely complex eco system is WAY more ridiculous than simply believing that some being beyond our comprehension created it all. I'm not saying that you have to believe in the Bible's version, but its just crazy to me that so many educated people can believe in such a far fetched idea.
Plus athiests are usually total condescending asses (not you Steve, I totally respect you, I'm just talking in general from my experience in real life with people who proclaim athiesm) when you bring up religion, it's annoying.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 06:00:48 PM
Just to let you guys know, Jehova witnesses are always at my door (my mom's friend was one and, well, you see) and Mormoms, mainly thank me for the Mormons because I am the idiot who always calls to get free stuff off of commercials and I couldn't pass on these Mormon movies. I have two of the same movies from the Mormons (one DVD and one recently VHS), along with another VHS tape, and I got a Free Book of Mormom from the Mormons and I enjoy talking to them when they ask for me and schedule dates. I feel sorry though, I really shouldn't waste their time since I have no interests in joining their religion at all, but hell they are hilarious and are kind enough to give me free crap.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 16, 2005, 06:03:06 PM
I agree with you GUTS, and this is a main reason why I became so interested in religion. I am what you would call a "believer" too, so naturally I hate skeptics and though I love what science can discover, I don't like it completely since science can only discover with so many senses and not deal with real spiritual stuff. This could be another reason why Islam sticks out so much to me because it is a religion of great spirituality and purity.
Title: Religion
Post by: Ninja Spirit on November 17, 2005, 02:27:45 AM
I'm, Christian, but I really don't think I've shown it lately. This past August I went to church for the first time in 2 years.
When people ask what denomination I am, I'm not the kind of person who would use the words "Baptist", "Episcopalian", "Presbyterian", "Methodist", "Catholic", etc., I mean what difference does it make? You're worshipping the same God but some have their own way of doing it. Then again, all that goes back to the Reformation ages many centuries ago.
But there are some Christians that I have doubts to, these people on TV talking Bible Prophecy and setting dates. I remember when I was 12 years old, (It was June 8, 1994), one of those men on the religious TV network said that the Rapture was going to occur on June 9, as he's talking, he throws in random Bible verse references to try to justify it. Considering it was the next day, I was worried sick all day and couldn't sleep. Then the next day, everytime I heard a noise outside like a airplane flying over the house I ran to the window. Hey I was that "Sunday School" kid that was so naive to believe anything.
What I really don't like is when they use that spiritual stuff to make a quick buck. I mean come on, those "church" informercials that come on at 2AM with that Miracle Spring water, & Prayer Cloth? Sprinkle this water on yourself, say a few words and the next day you see a million dollars on your doorstep?
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 17, 2005, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: "Ninja Spirit"
I'm, Christian, but I really don't think I've shown it lately. This past August I went to church for the first time in 2 years.
When people ask what denomination I am, I'm not the kind of person who would use the words "Baptist", "Episcopalian", "Presbyterian", "Methodist", "Catholic", etc., I mean what difference does it make? You're worshipping the same God but some have their own way of doing it. Then again, all that goes back to the Reformation ages many centuries ago.
I know, but folks take their different interpretations of the Bible very seriously! :)
Quote
.... Considering it was the next day, I was worried sick all day and couldn't sleep. Then the next day, everytime I heard a noise outside like a airplane flying over the house I ran to the window. Hey I was that "Sunday School" kid that was so naive to believe anything.
Well, the nuns who taught Cathetcism scared us about being sinners and going to hell. We'd go to confession every other week -- I'd get so nervous during the actuall event that I had to plan out in advance what I was going to confess to the priest. I had "stage fright" big time because they made it seem so serious and overwhelming.
Quote
What I really don't like is when they use that spiritual stuff to make a quick buck. I mean come on, those "church" informercials that come on at 2AM with that Miracle Spring water, & Prayer Cloth? Sprinkle this water on yourself, say a few words and the next day you see a million dollars on your doorstep?
Agreed. I honestly can't believe this stuff is still on the air, because it means that it is profitable, and if its profitable, there must be tons of poor souls out there who don't know any better. Sad.
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 17, 2005, 06:22:42 AM
Quote from: "GUTS"
I just don't get athiesm, I mean even if I wasn't partial to Christianity I would still believe in some sort of higher being.
Well, there are many different types of "atheisms"... I think many folks, like myself, subscribe to some sort of existential-atheism (popularized by Sartre a few decades ago). Basically, I could never say with absolute, scientific certainty that there is no god / higher being / spiritual afterlife / reincarnation / etc. All of those things might very well exist. Let's assume they do -- in fact, I believe that all of these things might possibly exist.
Quote from: "to conserve space"
BUT here's the twist, and this is a point that many folks, even many atheists themselves, don't fully explain or fully grasp:
Atheism is living your life AS IF there is no higher, spiritual realm. This is actually a huge point. It means that atheists don't have to waste their time wondering "is there a god?" It doesn't matter if there is a god. It doesn't matter if I'll be re-incarnated.
Why? Because we have to live our lives as best we can now, as mortals, on earth. Hopefully, most folks will live ethical, moral lives (but nothing is preventing you from doing otherwise). I take the time to say this because many folks equate atheism with "lack of morality". Hahahahahahaha. That's the funniest thing I encounter. Ethics, morality and justice exist outside of religion (they are abstract concepts, period, nothing inherently religious about them), although you'll find that many folks are confused and think that ethics & morality are inseperable from religion / spirituality.
Personally, I believe I have a duty to live an ethical, politically progressive, active life. Human rights, animal rights, worker's rights, immigrant's rights, anti-exploitation, etc. ... you get the picture. My whole moral compass is based on these principles, which are human creations. They are abstract -- and because they are abstract, they actually DO FEEL kind of "spiritual", but by this I mean that I feel that these concepts are so important that they transcend the importance of my life. They are something that people die for. Something that will effect future generations when I'm long dead and forgotten.
So, in a funny way, I do feel that there is "something greater than me" (and it gives my life meaning, for sure) ... it is the closest I get to the "spiritual" part of my existence, but it has absolutely nothing to do with god, religion, spirituality, etc.
I'm not perfect, by any means, but I try "put my money where my mouth is" and follow my beliefs. It often creates problems (i.e. When I go out to eat with my friends, 9 times out of 10 the only thing I can get on the menu is the salad. Except in friggin' goddam North Carolina, where they put bacon and bacon grease on EVERYTHING, including the salads! Bless them! I ended up eating an early dinner ... I still had dinner w/ friends, but I nursed a soda or a tea while they ate :)
PET PEEVE: Religious cliques. If there is a "heaven", then I truly doubt that God will manage it like a country club or a college fraternity and say: "Sorry, members only!" "You led an exemplarly life, but you never professed your faith to me. In fact, you never even inquired about joining! It's a shame, really, since you'd otherwise have been a poster-boy; a positive role-model for the community. Anyway, I'm sorry, but this security guard is going to escort you off the premises now." If heaven is run like a country club, I'd be happier in hell. You can quote me on that one :)
Quote from: "GUTS"
I mean the belief that over billions of years, with odds in the billions to one, that single celled organisms evolved into our perfectly ballanced and infinitely complex eco system is WAY more ridiculous than simply believing that some being beyond our comprehension created it all. I'm not saying that you have to believe in the Bible's version, but its just crazy to me that so many educated people can believe in such a far fetched idea.
I don't give any credence to "intelligent design" theory, myself. I think it's also called "divine creation" but this term might refer to a bunch of different things.
Also, and I'm not doing this to antagonize you, but I honestly can't believe that "intelligent design" and "creationism" are part of any school's scientific curriculum. I feel that we've taken a huge step backwards.
But, to end things on a postive note, here's something that you will love GUTS: When my grandma gave my brother here old car, she left some of her cassettes in the glove compartment. So, one day while my brother is stuck in traffic, he pops in a tape. The band is called GLAD, they are a christian born-again band, i think, and they have an AWESOME song with lyrics like this:
"I heard it on the news today, we were once monkeys swinging from trees. I read in a book today, were were swinging from the trees."
The real lyrics are much better, I'll have to see if I can find them.
UPDATE: Oh crap, it must have been a different band. Here's the album I was thinking of: http://www.artistopia.com/Buy-Music/Album.asp?CDid=B00000DPJ0&ArtistName=Glad&AlbumName=Romans But the track list doesn't seem to have any silly songs on it. Hmmmmm... I wish I could remember the name of the band.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 17, 2005, 06:59:22 AM
Yeah I see what you're saying, I think I remember everyone arguing over the whole "ethics do/do not exist outside of religion" thing on the turbo board. Didn't that end with everybody all pissed off and nemo comparing you to caligula or something? Haha, good times!
Quote
Also, and I'm not doing this to antagonize you, but I honestly can't believe that "intelligent design" and "creationism" are part of any school's scientific curriculum. I feel that we've taken a huge step backwards.
That's ok, I totally respect your opinion on it. BUT evolution is still just a theory, so I just think there should be some balance in what is taught since in the end both creationism and evolution are just theories.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 17, 2005, 10:50:54 AM
Evolution could be a quite possible theory, but it seems like schools and stuff are trying to say this is what really happened when in fact, we can't exactly prove this either, like how we can't quite prove a god exists. I could never believe in something like Scientology because when it all comes down to what creates what, there has to be one and one only, some kind of god that created something which expanded more and more. When I am ready to convert, I will dedicate myself to believing Allah is god and the only god with Muhammad being his messenger.
Title: Religion
Post by: Kaminari on November 17, 2005, 07:11:28 PM
No offense to anyone, but when I hear about Intelligent Design being taught in schools and gaining solid political grounds in the States, it gives me the creeps and I feel damn lucky to live in my country. Evolutionism is a scientific theory; creationism is nothing but a blind act of faith. It's just impossible to ignore the countless palaeontological evidences that organic creatures (let alone humans) are the product of millions of years of natural evolution.
Creationism was imagined by people who were so afraid to exist by mistake that they decided God must have had a plan for them (read: the Universe and Life had no purpose but to ultimately lead to humanity). What a pretentious pile of monkey snot! Those people obviously had no idea how big the Universe is, and what a humongous waste of material that would be if the Universe had been created for humanity alone.
Try thinking for a second about Life from a spiritually rational perspective. Have you ever considered the possibility that God maybe created the Universe and the elements of Life by mistake, but He let it evolve to see what would come out of it, to give it and its potential organic offspring a fair chance without favouring any of them? Imagine then what God thinks when He hears humans bragging about how much "special" and "unique" they are in the Grand Scheme of Things (and failing miserably to prove it when their primary leisure is to slaughter each others)? Give the Great Maker some slack...
Believing in both God and evolutionism is certainly not contradictory, I'd even go to say it's very healthy for the mind. It gives humans a sense of humility instead of arrogance. But to be honest, I don't really care about all this crap. I'm a Taoist. The Oracle is my goddess and Neo her prophet.
PS: Qur'an is a good read. I also suggest the Bhagavad Gita and my personal favorite, the Tao Te Ching.
Title: Religion
Post by: mamonohunter on November 18, 2005, 12:55:43 AM
The christian religion have been around me all my life but I am a atheist. I love christmas for example but I never think about what it was supposed to be about, Im only in it for Santa, christmasgifts and the other traditional things. Just like I think that buddhism is cool because of the shaolinmonks. I dont know if I ever can be taking a religion serious and thats a pity.
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 18, 2005, 03:20:32 AM
Quote from: "GUTS"
Yeah I see what you're saying, I think I remember everyone arguing over the whole "ethics do/do not exist outside of religion" thing on the turbo board. Didn't that end with everybody all pissed off and nemo comparing you to caligula or something? Haha, good times!
Oh yes! That was crazy. At first I thought Nemo was totally joking, but then it became apparent that he was truly disgusted with certain stances I took. Hahahahaha. That was a blast. But I felt bad for Nemo, and I felt bad that I purposely antagonized folks instead of being polite. I've been buying some items from Nemo since then and it seems we are kool now, and not simply because I'm the only who will buy his old Gameboy and Sega CD FMV titles he's trying to unload. Nemo's gotta know I love him, I've told him countless times :)
Back on topic: If you ever get a chance to see any of Luis Bunuel's films, do it! I've promoted Bunuel ad nauseam elsewhere so I won't go into a rant now. BUT:
He made many films that are relevant to our discussion. One of his best films is Nazarin (accent on the "i"). It's the "life of Jesus" transposed to a new context, and it just friggin' rules because Bunuel is painfully cruel, but realistic with many issues. He's got a wicked sense of humor (his surrealist roots, I think). Ultimately, I still root for the protagonist in this film, even though Bunuel pokes fun at his idealism. Thankfully, Bunuel is much more crtitical of the Church (organized religion) in his films. I think he actually digs Jesus (who I think kicks ass).
If you want a more trashy / trippy film, then go for Simon of the Desert. It's not as masterful as Nazarin, though. Still, quite entertaining.
But Viridiana is a much better choice. Again, an excellent exploration of "morality", the Church, and hyprocrisy. Masterful.
Warning: these films are not going to be everyone's cup of tea. If you're not into religion, there are plenty of other films of his to check out: Diary of a Chambermaid, El Bruto, Los Olvidados (Steve's TOP PICK for the year), etc. :)
/ end rant
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 18, 2005, 07:48:43 AM
I'll have to see if any of those are up on any torrent sites, I usually enjoy odd movies like that. I only have a blockbuster/hollywood video close to me so I seriously doubt they have any for rent, haha. All the little mom & pop places are here closed down years ago, it's a shame because I used to be able to rent the most obsucre movies at a couple of them. Thank god for bittorrent!
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 18, 2005, 02:09:49 PM
Old video stores are the greatest. We have tons of them up here in the Chicago subburbs and I hear they are a lot cheaper than other video stores in the country. The typical rent here is two older releases for $1. Some have a really great collection of 80's movies, cheese and all, but one of my favorite video stores has been selling a lot of them off or getting rid of them :( .
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 18, 2005, 06:12:23 PM
Quote from: "GUTS"
I'll have to see if any of those are up on any torrent sites, I usually enjoy odd movies like that. I only have a blockbuster/hollywood video close to me so I seriously doubt they have any for rent, haha. All the little mom & pop places are here closed down years ago, it's a shame because I used to be able to rent the most obsucre movies at a couple of them. Thank god for bittorrent!
You know, there's a famous short film Bunuel did with Salvador Dali -- it's called "Un Chien Andalou", it's super-famous (or should I say infamous) surrealist film. One of the first, and still one of the best.
It's rather short, and it is well known, so bittorrent might have it. "Belle de Jour" is probably Bunuel's most famous films... I think Scorcese (sp?) re-released it here in the states like 10 years ago, so that's another one that might be availabe. While Belle de Jour is good, I really don't consider it Bunuel's best (this puts me at odds with most film critics).
Many of the films in my first post are hard to come by... they were only released on video here in the states, and usually by smaller distributors. But if someone took the time to transfer a VHS to digital format, that would rule! Definitely tell me if you find anything.
I'd recommend LOS OLVIDADOS as a your first film. My family and friends like that one, even when they hate his other stuff.
Bunuel rules because he did "trashy" films with style, and he did "artsy fartsy" films absurdly, with biting humor.
OH, and here's one you've got to see:
AGUIRRE, Wrath of God -- if you like Klaus Kinski, this is a must-see. If you don't know who Kinski is, this is a must see. Werner Herzog, who directed this film, is #2 on my list of favorite directors. GUTS, I know you, I KNOW YOU WILL LOVE THIS FILM. I know it. You can probably find it at Blockbuster if you're lucky.
/rant
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on November 18, 2005, 06:19:14 PM
Im a Pioneerist,and my god plays 12 inch and 8 inch platters in CAV and CLV.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on November 18, 2005, 07:09:02 PM
Whoa there's actually a torrent site with that Wrath of God movie up, hopefully it has subtitles cause it looks like it's in another language. Sweet!
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on November 19, 2005, 07:48:39 AM
Quote from: "GUTS"
Whoa there's actually a torrent site with that Wrath of God movie up, hopefully it has subtitles cause it looks like it's in another language. Sweet!
Yeah, it's in german. Don't worry, even if you had to watch it without subtitles, you'd watch it to the end -- it's not a dialogue-heavy film by any means. In fact, I don't think you "watch" this film... you "experience" this film. You will love it :)
And while the film is brutally awesome from the first scene, I love the way the film closes ...
Title: Religion
Post by: Ninja Spirit on November 19, 2005, 11:30:16 AM
Want a movie about Revelation?
Watch "Years of the Beast".
That movie scared the hell out of me seriously! We watched that during VBS one summer and I had a hard time sleeping after watching that.
Title: Religion
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 22, 2005, 04:23:01 PM
I'm a little late on this thread but the whole Intelligent Design thing quite frankly bothers me as well. We can prove Evolution, can we prove the exact steps every living creature has taken to get to where it is today? No. Does that give any creedence at all to teaching Intelligent Design, NO. It's totally based on theory and faith. Something which obviously does not belong in the classroom.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on November 23, 2005, 11:22:42 AM
There is something I am curious about in evolution and maybe someone here can answer it. If we really did evolve from star matter which evolved into tons of other things eventually leading to monkeys, which are supposedly are closests ancestors, then how come there are still all of these other creatures still living? Shouldn't everything have evolved at one point or how does that work according to the theory? We still have animals living from very long ago, shouldn't they have evolved yet?
Title: Religion
Post by: DragonmasterDan on November 23, 2005, 03:08:54 PM
Quote from: "Keranu"
There is something I am curious about in evolution and maybe someone here can answer it. If we really did evolve from star matter which evolved into tons of other things eventually leading to monkeys, which are supposedly are closests ancestors, then how come there are still all of these other creatures still living? Shouldn't everything have evolved at one point or how does that work according to the theory? We still have animals living from very long ago, shouldn't they have evolved yet?
Well ALL of those creatures aren't still living, many (and in fact most) species of apes (and early man) have become extinct and only a small handful remain alive today.
The idea of natural selection is that life with traits better adapted to its envirionment will be more likely to succeed in competition with others and it will then spread the traits that make it successful to others. Those with the supererior characteristic are better fed and better able to compete and as a result are more likely to breed and pass on these traits to their offspring, this trend continues until those without the new dominant trait fork off and breed only with their own or intermix with the dominant eventually becoming extinct. Many of these animals have evolved but not necessarily in massive steps over the years into their current state today.
For an animal to become extinct it has to be throughly ravaged by predators, disease, envirionmental or out-competed. In this day in age where we as humans raise livestock and field crops to feed society we don't fight with monkeys for bannanas forcing them to starvation and eventual extinction.
Humans haven't really been competing with apes directly for food and resources for thousands of years. Neanderthals are a good example of what happens when something loses out due to competetion, eventually humans out hunted and out competed neaderthals and ultimately forced them to extinction.
With that said many species of apes are close to extinction due to hunting and poaching not due to being out-done by man.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 04, 2005, 02:34:41 PM
I'm a Jehovah's Witness. I became one June 19, 1993. It's the only religion that's ever made sense to me.
For instance, we don't celebrate the holidays, why, most of them are pagan in origin. It doesn't make sense to me, to be a Christian, & celebrate various non-Christian holidays, like Halloween, Christmas, Easter, Valentines days, etc.
Obvioulsy there's ones like Presidents day that are totally evil, cuz Presidents day was started in worship of the god Hamakas, & the Hamakalites would sacrifice their parents & children, then finally themselves, to commemerate the day that Hamakas came to be. Needless to say, the Hamakalites died off pretty quick, but somehow the holiday survived these 3, 458 years, 8 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 minutes, & 23 seconds since the first, & last sacrifice to Hamakas :lol:
Anyways, seriously now, another thing I don't believe in is a fiery burning hell, since the Bible doesn't teach that there is one. Infact, the Bible even says that the soul that is sinning, it itself will die. And everyone, including myself, is a sinner, we all make mistakes, so I believe our souls die, not live on in torment in hell, or in some imaginary bliss on a cloud. As it is, the original meaning of the word sheol(hell) just means the common man's grave. It teaches, that after Armageddon, there will be a ressurection of the righteous AND the unrighteous. And there would be a 1000 year reign of peace & tranquility, where we grow towards perfection, but there will be some, that won't even try to be good, & they will perish.
I obvioulsy don't celebrate birthdays, mainly because, there's 2 examples in the Bible, involving birthdays, & they both ended up in disaster. And it's interesting, recently, my brother in law & wife were doing research on birthdays, & it looks like there was a pagan background to the cake & candles. As a Christian, it's amazing how many things have survived from Babylon, among other pagan nations.
I also believe the Bible doesn't teach that God, Christ, & the holy spirit are one. From what I understand, God is the Father, 1 entity, Jesus, is his son(who actually prayed to God, if he were God, why would he pray to himself), & the holy spirit, is just God's power, or his active force.
When I think of more, that seperates my beliefs from other Christians, I'll write them down, but I gotta head over to Trader Joe's.
Oh yeah, nobody knows the day or the hour of Armageddon, not even the Son, only the Father. So nobody, can say for sure, an exact date of when it will happen(even though I'm sure there are JW's that have made that mistake before, I don't expect perfection). Also, there are things the Bible was right about, a loooooooong time before anybody ever discovered them. Like the world being a sphere, & it hanging from nothing, as opposed to the views of it being flat, or on a turtles back, etc. Also there were things the Jews, & later Christians were required to do, to keep them from getting sick, because other nations, still hadn't figured out how diseases were spread. That's another reason why I believe in the Bible. Not to mention, the state things are in now worldwide, are exactly as the Bible predicted. Infact, I believe soon, religion is pretty much going to disapear. That's what the Bible predicts, because the beast, will turn on Babylon the Great. The beast is the governments, & Babylon the Great is the worlds religions, which has been commiting fornication with the nations(think about things like the Pope supporting Hitler). So, I don't expect religion to be as free as it is, soon.
Ok, another thing, when the Bible says to fear God, it doesn't mean in a morbid way. It means to fear displeasing him, letting him down. Like how you wouldn't want to make your mate sad, or you brother, or friend, etc. Fearing God sounds totally reasonable from that standpoint. He truly is a God of love. If you think he was wrathful in the Hebrew scriptures, it's because he always had a reason for destroying certain nations, that goes without saying, but I said it anyways :D Plus, like I said before, there is no eternal torment(which I consider very unloving). Even the references to Gehenna & the lake of fire are not literal. Nor is Jesus actually going to physically come down with the clouds, during the 2nd coming, which alot of people believe, he will litteraly apear before everyone to see in some kind of physical form.
Also, I believe God does not send someone to hell, if they don't get baptized, etc. Baptism is a person's choice. We weren't made as robots without a free will. God gave us free will, & allows us to make our own descisions. If we decide it is right to serve him, he is pleased ofcoarse. And another thing that bothers me about some religions, is that they teach that God goes around making things happen. Like when someone says that God has taken your baby. No, the Bible states that time & unforeseen occurance befall us all. That's not to say he never helps us. And even then, I believe we need to take care of ourselves, & not expect divine intervention, like he's going to just wipe someones debt clean, or miraculously save someones life. Not that it doesn't happen, but "faith without works is dead". In otherwords, we can't just get along in life by faith alone, we have to actually work for what we want. And if what we want is also what he wants, then he may help us. But when he does help us, it's not always right away from our standpoint. He is a being that's been around forever, timeless, so time is different to him. And even then, that doesn't mean he helps you in the way you are expecting. But I give God credit all the time in the dealing of my life.
Some are more obvious, like me finding my wife. Both of us had problems with depression, & were going thru alot of problems, but we both believe that God brought us together, because we ended up helping eachother. It's alot more complicated then that ofcoarse, but that's 1 example when I deffinitly give God credit. Another is when we almost lost my mom, & some very strange & you might actually say miraculous things happened, all by chance, but I give him credit anyways.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 04, 2005, 03:53:02 PM
Oh yeah, & I'm no judge, but, I'm pretty sure every TV envangelist is in it for a quick buck(or many quick bucks the way so many people fall for that stuff :roll:)
Oh, one interesting thing, back when I was in high school, my science teacher tought evolution as a theory, along with creation as a theory! That was a great class, since it wasn't one sided! When it came to evolution, my answer's were always "the book says that such & such came to be via....". I'll never forget that :D
BTW, some other things. I don't believe in creationism, no Jehovah's Witness does(unless they don't know what it means). Creationism, unless I'm wrong, is that the world was made in 7 literal human days. I don't believe that. I believe that those 7 days could of been thousands of years long. What is a day to God? Pretty fricken long, if you ask me! Heck, we don't even know for sure how old the earth is, in the begining, before the 7 creative days, the earth was formless & void. So how long was it sitting there before those days? No one knows an exact date, but, it shows that this world is older then 6000+ years(with us still be in the 7th day, the day of rest).
Also, if anyone thinks were a cult, or a sect. Your both wrong. We don't follow any human(I don't even know who it'd be that we follow). We just follow God, plain & simple. As for being a sect, once again, we're not. The original guy who basically started the JW's checked out several religions, but ended up doing his own studying with some people, which got bigger & bigger over the years. I mean, if we're a sect, then so is every single Christian religion, including Catholic's, since the Catholic's were not the first Christian religion. They were just Christians, period. And even then, they could be considered a sect from the Jew's, since you could say they sectioned off from them.
Another thing I thought of. For some odd reason, people that believe in evolution, have this notion that it's not possible for someone to believe in aliens, if they believe in creation. Once again, your wrong. I believe it's possible for aliens to exist. Where in the Bible does it say that they don't? Nowhere. God could've created countless worlds in countless solar systems, etc. Filled with alien life, we don't know for sure. I personally don't think they exist, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong, since like I said, there's nothing to say that they don't. :D
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 04, 2005, 04:13:51 PM
Quote from: "DragonmasterDan"
I'm a little late on this thread but the whole Intelligent Design thing quite frankly bothers me as well. We can prove Evolution, can we prove the exact steps every living creature has taken to get to where it is today? No. Does that give any creedence at all to teaching Intelligent Design, NO. It's totally based on theory and faith. Something which obviously does not belong in the classroom.
I can say the exact same thing about evolution, that it's all based on faith & theory, while the Bible is based on hardcore fact. There's really no faith involved in believing in intelligent design. BTW, I also believe that it's possible for evolution in one's own kind. But fish, can't evolve into a monkey.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on December 04, 2005, 08:19:06 PM
Paranoia that was interesting, personally I've always thought jehovah's witness's were a little crazy and WAY over zealous with the not-celebrating-birthdays-or-holidays thing, but it was really cool to read your thoughts on stuff since most of it I can understand where you're coming from after you laid it out. I love reading personal testamonials of what people believe in, it really makes a lot more sense when you hear it from an individual who really believes it as opposed to just reading about a religion's doctrine or belief systm in general.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on December 04, 2005, 08:19:14 PM
Ahh, I was waiting for your post here, Paranoia since I knew you were religious, just had no idea you were a Jehova! I always just thought you were a hardcore Catholic or something. You made a nice post and I now know and respect Jehova's Witnesses more now because of it. I didn't know you guys were the kind of people who prefer to just strictly believe in god, which is a reason why I love Islam because with Islam you don't need to contact with the holy ghost to talk to god, or use Hindu statues, or do anything like that; all you must do is pray to Allah and Allah only, nothing else. God is the most important part and should be what you're supposed to focus on most. Of course I love Islam for many other reasons, but this is just one nice one to point out.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 04, 2005, 09:16:06 PM
Yeah, people always have the wrong idea about us. But, I try to just live my life, treating people with respect(though, I'm imperfect, so I can lose my cool), & let them see that I'm actually a decent guy. I'm sure there are some Witnesses that are really wierd, & ones that are fake Witnesses(people, usually teenager's, that pretend to be a JW, just to get with some girl, or to make their parents happy, which is NOT a reason to be of any religion). And I'm sure plenty of people meet some of those JW's & get the wrong idea, then they play the telephone game(I met a Witness, who doesn't do such & such........purple monkey dishwasher).
And we do believe Jesus is important, just that, he is not God, but God's son, 2 totally seperate entities. It does say to pray thru Jesus, to Jehovah, so like at the end of my prayer, I'll say in your son's name, or thru Jesus Christ, & then say amen. But we do not pray TO Jesus. That'd be pointless & probably considered blasphemous, since he ain't God.
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on December 04, 2005, 09:23:43 PM
That's cool though because God is what counts. Islam believes and respects Jesus as well as the prophet he was, which is something quite a few people don't seem to know.
Title: Religion
Post by: TR0N on December 04, 2005, 11:41:00 PM
No body expects the spanish inquisition!
oops my bad derailed thread :roll:
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on December 05, 2005, 01:09:59 PM
HAHA I loved those Spanish Inquisition skits, awesome stuff.
Title: Religion
Post by: esteban on December 05, 2005, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: "GUTS"
HAHA I loved those Spanish Inquisition skits, awesome stuff.
fluffy pillows!
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 05, 2005, 03:19:48 PM
Oh, since nobody mentioned it, I'll just make sure everyone know I was kidding as to the origin of Presidents day, with Hamakas & the Hamakalites. :lol:
Title: Religion
Post by: DragonmasterDan on December 07, 2005, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: "ParanoiaDragon"
I can say the exact same thing about evolution, that it's all based on faith & theory, while the Bible is based on hardcore fact. There's really no faith involved in believing in intelligent design. BTW, I also believe that it's possible for evolution in one's own kind. But fish, can't evolve into a monkey.
There's faith involved in intelligence design in the sense that you believe some inteligent force designed everything. That's why there is so much of a controversy about it.
Also the idea of evolution isn't that monkey's evolved from fish, it's a gradual process over million and even billions of years that can quite easily be studied by looking at things like genetic evidence of how related various types of animals are. There is scientific fact behind evolution, is every single step between every living creature known. No, and it never will be due to the fact that a lot of the fossil records are lost in the seas of time. But the basic concept of evolution is more than just theory, the steps that evolution has gone through over the years as I said aren't totally known. But most of evolution is fact. There isn't any idea of "faith" behind the fact that humans and apes are related for example.
I won't that some of what is taught regarding evolution can't totally be proven and is theory, but the basic principle behind it (that animals evolved from more simple animals basically by mutation of traits which became beneficial via natural selection) is scientific fact beyond a reasonable doubt.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 07, 2005, 04:14:40 PM
I have no doubt & no problem knowing that humans & apes have some of the same genes or whatever, I still say, from my point of view that takes alot of faith to believe that's our ancestor. I know the theory isn't fish to apes, I was just shortening it. Lot's of animals have similar traits & genes & whatever, that's fine, that still doesn't say to me, we must've come from this, that came from that, etc. And just so you know, I'm not trying to be insulting or even debate really, I'm just speaking from my POV, what I believe :)
As for intelligent design, I don't need faith to know God is there, everything on earth, shows me that there is a designer, whether it be a computer, with a human designer, or a flower with a heavenly designer.
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 08, 2005, 07:11:16 AM
Ooh fun...a religious thread. These things bring out the a$$hole in me in ways you couldn't possibly imagine, so I'll try to keep it a bit civil this time. :D
I am a combination of many paths. To put a label on my personal views, you'd have to say I was an Atheist/Christian/Pagan/Neo-Satanist.
Atheist: I do not believe in a God whatsoever. I have no need for the spiritual safety blanket, nor the threat of godly vengeance. Christian: Jesus was a very good teacher with a simple message: love, peace, righteousness, and justice. I try to live my life with these ideals. Pagan: It is nature, not some divine being, that ultimately rules over us. Life is a continual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. If we are kind to nature, it is kind to us...and vice versa. Neo-Satanist: Respect yourself and those you love, but show no mercy for the a$$holes. Take responsibility for your own life and your own shortcomings, don't blame others for your faults. Never harm anyone unless they harm you or those you love. NEVER HARM A CHILD IN ANY WAY.
I was raised Roman Catholic. Bible study and Sundays chool were both things I grew up with. When I became 18 years old, I shed the dogma of Catholicism and started studying world religions. I've read a great number of holy books, and have come to the conclusion that although many of them are quite inspirational, just about all of them are complete BS when it all comes down to the facts. Even when I was growing up, I had an inquisitive mind, and I constantly questioned the Bible, which as you can imagine did nothing more than piss off the people who ran the Sunday school and Bible study sessions. If the book was so perfect, surely it could stand up to scrutiny, right? Wrong...it doesn't, and that's one of the many reasons I got away from the religion. The acts of the Popes have redoubled my opinion that I did the right thing in leaving Catholicism far behind.
I've studied no less than 100 religions in the 12 years I've dedicated to the task...from Santaria to Asatru to Islam to Wicca to Lutheranism to Shinto...I've tried to cover them all. I've documented countless parallels between world religions, making special studies of issues such as the "beginning of the world" and "the end of the world"...each religion has their own story to tell on the subject. However, what never ceases to amaze me is how much the core of Christianity has absorbed from other, much older religions. No other religion that is documented today is so heavily influenced by other religions. There are very few religions younger than Christianity, which didn't even become a major religion until about 360CE (Constantine made it the state religion of Rome, and it spread from there). Almost half of the religious concepts come from Judaism, many come from Egypt, and some come from scattered smaller religions that the Catholics labelled "pagan" ("pagan" means "country-dweller", a name given to these people by the Catholics), especially, as Paranoia Dragon has stated, major holidays. Only Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism existed at the time. Skip ahead to the 16th century...a man named Martin Luther seceeded from the Catholic church, creating the first Protestant religion, Lutheranism. Other Protestant religions formed from that, and the rest is history. :D but what REALLY bothers me...it bothered me all throughout growing up and it bothers me now...is how SO MANY PEOPLE take the Bible seriously. About the only thing in the Bible to take seriously is the good things that Jesus taught...the rest is either complete bunk or a history lesson. Many modern-day Christians, however, seem to have an obsession with using the Bible as a weapon, picking and choosing convenient phrases from the book and ignoring the rest. This is especially bad amongst Catholics (I know, remember, this is how I was raised!). The ironic part is that for every point in the Bible, somewhere in the Bible there's a counterpoint. This makes it easy for any Christian to pull an argument from the Bible, claiming that their religion supports their viewpoint. For example: in the Old Testament, beating your child (even killing your child) is condoned. However, in the New Testament, Jesus clearly condemns it (depends on the version you read though...the NIV, for example, has a different wording on this subject). The deeper message of the "miracles" that Jesus performed has been destroyed, replaced with nonsensical mysticism that completely misses the mark. For example: when Jesus fed many hungry people from only a little food, it had nothing to do with him magically making more food and wine appear; he taught these many people how to share with each other, giving everyone a portion of the food. The deeper meaning of this is completely lost by the mystical ideal of him magically creating more food.
Now, getting down to some brass tacks here...as far as I'm concerned, there's only one religion out there that is complete BS, and that's Scientology. There are other religions with some screws loose (Wicca and Methodism, for example), but Scientology is missing more than screws...it's missing the whole engine. There's so much to tell about this, way more than I feel like writing out here. As for specific people...ALL Fundamentalists are COMPLETE morons, whether it be a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, no matter...ALL fundamentalists are morons. Plain and simple. If you're a fundie, you're my enemy.
A few specific messages to followers of specific types of religions:
Christians: your Bible is not literal truth; don't take it as such, and don't try to push it onto those of us who don't want it. And besides...if it was, you'd be some of the sorriest-looking saps in the world...you'd be blind, limbless, and most of you would be dead! Wiccans: your religion is based in theistic Satanism; stop trying to cover this fact up. Gardner was a complete idiot. We all know the routine: "We're not Satanists!" is the chant you like to use. No one accused you of it...when you make the chant of "We're not Satanists!", you draw attention to the idea that hey, maybe you ARE! Neo-Satanists: stop trying to be dark, gloomy psuedo-intellectuals. Your religion (although it's not really a religion, more of a philosophy) is all about having FUN in your lives...start doing it! Atheists: although not a religion, many of you handle it like it is. Knock it the f*ck off. A rabid Atheist promoting Atheism is no different than a rabid Christian promoting Christianity or a rabid Wiccan promoting Wicca. Some people NEED religion...feel lucky you do not.
And a final note to anyone who supports this ID movement...keep in mind that ID has zero scientific evidence whatsoever. Evolution is accepted scientific fact, and although scientists have disagreements about specific species and other details, the core concept as a whole has been accepted fact for decades now. If you want ID to be taught, great...teach it in your Philosophy classes where it belongs. ID is NOT SCIENCE and NEVER WILL BE.
Okay, that's enough from me for now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum already in progress. :D
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 08, 2005, 11:24:52 AM
Alright, that's it, let's duke it out :lol: Anyways, in my opinion, I see nothing but 100% fact of ID, it's obvious, & it's everywhere. But from your viewpoint, you see evolution as 100% fact, & being obvious & everywhere. And anytime anyone's tried to say one scripture ends up contradicting another, has never been able to prove it to me, with all the different scriptures, different people view them in different ways, like in the Hebrew scriptures, it deffinitly doesn't say to beat or even kill your child, I'm not even sure which version, out of the millions of different Bibles out there, that you read that. One thing I do agree with you on, is that there is sooooooo much in the Christian religions, that takes stuff from "pagan" religions, like the worship of the saints, & Mary, all pagan stuff. Christmas, originaly a pagan holiday, Jesus wasn't even born in December, more like October or September, since the shepards were out with there flock at the time......not exactly something they'd be doing, in that area of the world, in December :lol: There's plenty of pagan stuff in Christendom, & it's sad, that's why I avoid Christendom, but I also don't like going around telling everybody, hey, you better stop doing such & such, because it's pagan. Besides that fact that people believe what they want, & it's not my job to tell them they're wrong. When we go door to door, if they want to listen, great, if not, that's there choice. If the subject comes up, I might get into it. I don't want to make things worse for a person by just blurting out, hey, that's pagan! Anyways, it's all good, we all have our own views on life, that we each believe to be 100% fact.
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 08, 2005, 12:10:12 PM
nodtveidt completelly agree with you here.Cant stand the crowd of people who say they are athiest just to make a statement.I feel most religions are designed to convert,and take away the individualness of the person,and to retain some kind of control over something or someone,if not the group of worshippers themselves. Religion is just a tool for conformist.Conformist breed in weakness. I also dont worry wether there is something waiting there for me when Im dead.I dont have that fear of where I will be going,and dont really think Ill be going anywhere.I think I will be dead.Im just fine with that.The idea of eternal life scares me for that matter.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on December 08, 2005, 01:12:36 PM
I love you guys who shit all over religious people like they're sheep or stupid or something. Did you know that even f*cking Einstein believed in God? Choosing to reject religion is just as narrow minded and sheeplike as accepting it.
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 08, 2005, 02:47:34 PM
Well, I most certainly don't shit on people who follow a religion. Religion serves its purpose for many people. Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if no one had fear of Hell...murderous rampages, anyone? :D Religion has its advantages too...imagine, if you will, a 75 year old woman who just lost her husband of 55 years. She believes that she will see him again in Heaven, and that comforts her. Who are you to go up to her and tell her that she's wrong and a fool? Let her enjoy the last shreds of comfort she might have! In cases like this, religion can be a very useful tool. However, I am the kind of person who will challenge most anything, and religion happens to be a VERY large target. :D
PD, one thing I've never been able to understand is why "pagan" traditions are "bad". I've asked this of a great number of people and have never gotten a response beyond one of two things: "The Bible says it's bad!" or "It's just bad mmmkay?". The way I see that kind of thing, it's similar to saying "don't hang out with that guy, he's black". It just bothers me, because it's prejudice. :( Also, it would not be possible to "prove" to you that Scriptures contradict each other, since you are predisposed to believing the Bible over everything else, so such an effort is wasted and you can "explain it away"...just as I can "explain away" an opposing viewpoint. :)
Some history for y'all...Christmas itself is a Christian holiday. The pagan holiday is Yule (winter solstice), and is celebrated 3 to 4 days earlier. But that's not all...December 25th was used because it was also used in Egypt as the birthday of Horus. In order to shut out the stories of Horus, they needed to move Jesus' birthday to December 25th (this was also done to fit the prophecies). The Christmas Tree is a derivation of the Yule Tree and was first adapted by the Germans in the 16th century, iirc (in the Bible, there's a passage about greenery being kept inside the home as being forbidden, because it was pagan). Easter, a Christian holiday, is celebrated exactly one week after Eostre, the spring equinox. Halloween is the one a lot of people get "spooked" about. Originally called Samhain, this was a day of reflection on the past, as it was the last day of the calendar year. It was a day to celebrate the lives of those who had passed on from this world. In some cultures, they believed the spirits of children roamed the lands, playing tricks on people. To satisfy the childrens' spirits, people would put an offering of sweets on their doorstep. This is where the "trick or treat" tradition comes from. Wearing costumes was part of great shows the ancient people put on as a show of respect for their deceased loved ones. Ironically, early Christians perverted this ritual, claiming that demons walked the earth on Samhain, and that by dressing as a demon yourself, they would leave you alone. It's no wonder this turned into "the devil's holiday".
GUTS: Choosing to reject religion isn't narrow-minded. One's personal beliefs are not your place to judge, nor can they be compared to others. A great number of scientists throughout history have been religious, and have studied to figure out "God's world and how it works". The concepts are not incompatible whatsoever, even if the frothing Atheists believe they are. Just because Einstein was religious doesn't mean he was right...all we know is that he's dead now, and that's scientific fact. :P
Title: Religion
Post by: Keranu on December 08, 2005, 03:04:09 PM
Nice points, Nod. I'm not an athiest and I even agree with your points. I never understood that "Pagan is bad" thing either.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 08, 2005, 04:49:50 PM
I don't know if I would put it as "Pagan is bad", rather, more like, it's not a Christian belief, or whatever. That's like saying Budhism is bad, no, it's not bad, it's just not in line with Christian beliefs. I'd say more that worshipping Satan & sacrifing children is bad. But Pagan isn't bad in itself, atleast, that's my view.
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 08, 2005, 05:27:15 PM
I've yet to meet anyone who actually worships Satan or sacrifices children...hehehe. :D Wait though...which Satan are you referring to? My guess is the devil...anyone who "devil worships" is a moron and cannot be called a Satanist, because that's not what they are. True Satanists are probably among the nicest people you'll ever meet. :) Although rumours abound left and right of them offering up children as sacrifice to Satan, this is complete and utter bullshit and is actually completely against their philosophies (it's #9 in the Eleven Rules Of The Earth, a good link can be found here (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/ethics.html), more direct information on the religion itself can be found here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis4.htm)). But PD, remember...virtually none of the Christian beliefs are actually Christian...they come from a wide variety of old religions. Close to 50% of Christianity is actually Judaism, with the rest scattered amongst other religions, even stuff as far back as the Sumerians. Like most newer religions, it's a mutt. :D
Anyways, stuff like this always brings out a very interesting point: it is clearly not the differences of others that brings them together in one place, it's the similarities that bring them together. For us all, it's the love of the PCE. :D Keranu and I spoke of this earlier tonight on IRC...all of us in our group are from very different spiritual backgrounds...yet when it comes down to putting together a game, we simply put these differences aside and work towards that common goal. Why? Because religion doesn't matter when it comes to creating something that people will enjoy. :D
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 08, 2005, 05:43:39 PM
I dont go out of my way Guts to step on peoples beliefs,I usually just keep my views on it to myself unless asked,which is basically what I thought this was for here.Basically a tossing of ideas and why we like them or back them.At any rate... I work as a RA/CNA.The majority of people I help take care of are older,late 60-80ies.They get confort from believing there is a God,and Heaven,and what not.If thats what they need then thats fine.There is a comfort factor there that offers them what they need at this stage in their lives.Id rather have them find comfort in believeing in heaven and not being so scared about passing away then to worry till they die. Some people need to believe in certain things to die peacfully,and to accept their time.Some,no matter what,simply can not. I guess you can say it sjust a simple lack of faith,or whatever.I just simply choose to not believe in things like gods,or heavens and hells.I do not go around bragging it,or that I am a athiest.I dont go knocking people for their religions.Its their right. But Im also against peer pressure,conformist,the Union,ect....lol I have been to many churchs in my youth,as I woul dgo with a family member while he was soul serching,trying to find the right church,the place he needed to find to fit in.I went because he was my cousin,and was liek a big brother.But everytime we went to this church or that,I knew right away I didnt fit in,even at a early age,8 or 9.It just was not for me.Even at that age I didnt share the same views,just didnt feel the same way about the good book,and noticed the way people behaved,and I didnt like it.It held true for whatever church,baptist,penticostile,ect. When I wa smarried to my ex-wife,he rparents,both JWs,invited me to their Kingdom Hall.I went and experienced what some people call the "love bomb" as I was quickly jumped by everyone.I got the feeling it was overly friendly,and by the forth time of going there,when I think they realized I was just going to be polite to my ex inlaws,they no longer were very"loving and warm" people.They realized I was not a easy convert,and gave me the cold sholder.My ex mothe rin law and I still get along well,esp now,with her daughter running off and ditching the kids,and getting hooked on meth,and doing other things I wont mettion here,I think she has been able to look past the fact that I dont care for religion,for god or whatever,and that not believing in her religion has no impact on how I care for my children,or taht it makes me less of a parent.I think it affected her pride a bit,and my ex father in law espically,to see their daughter,raised in this religion,sink so low,and to see me,who was rasied by a single parent,in a non-religious home,who is a non-believer of god,do so well in life and with my children.Im a good person,and I have morals.Im not perfect,I dont always do the right thing,espically when there is something like personal gain at stake,but I know enough of what right or wrong means,and I didnt need religion to teach me this.Im my own person,and I perfer to stand on my own,without the aid of others.Thats just the person I am.
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 08, 2005, 05:59:20 PM
There is one group of people I really like,christian wise however.I may be misprouncing it here,but I think its called the "iglo ni christo"???? Basically they believe in worshipping God using the bible,and not a church,and dont feel the need to have a huge social flock to be able to do this efectivly.They dont need a church,and believe that the body of christ is made up of its members,the individuals,christ,and that the common goal is to worship god.When they do get together,its usually in the home,and they talk about things.I worked with a few when I did security. Out of any religious types I have met,or talked with,I was most impressed with them.They didnt try to convert,say I was wrong,go on a mission to save me from hell or anything.
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 08, 2005, 06:15:38 PM
I have a strong dislike of people who try to "convert" me or "save my soul". In the past, I dealt with these people very harshly...I have a flail made of spanish steel that looks extremely vicious, and I would carry it with me to the door when they showed up at my doorstep. They'd start in on their "we can save your soul" speech, and when they came up for air, I'd say something similar to "You say you can save me, but who's going to save YOU?" and that's when the weapon would come out. One look at the barbaric thing in my hand and they were GONE. Took five groups of these people getting this kind of repulsion before they all got the hint and left us the hell alone. Cruel? Yes, of course...so why did I do it? Because I could...Rule #4 of the Eleven Rules Of The Earth states "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy". So I did. Of course, times have changed now...I'd never do that nowadays, I'd simply tell them "I'm not interested" and shut the door. But things were different back then...although I still have a strong dislike of people who try to convert others or "save their soul". People have to find their own path in life or they will be weak their whole life.
The events I described here happened after a group of Christians made a very intentional attempt on my life because I was an admitted Pagan. Needless to say...I didn't exactly feel a lot of like for Christians for a looooooooong time after that...
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 08, 2005, 07:30:04 PM
Love Bomb???? That's a new one :) I can speak from experience & say that every congregation in every Kingdom Hall is different. Mine is pretty friendly, but they don't seem to bombard people. I know I wouldn't want to be bombarded. I'm personally not the type of person to just go up to someone visiting the Kingdom Hall & introduce myself, I'm way too shy for that kind of thing, & like I mentioned earlier, I've seen people try to become Witnesses for a girl, or whatever, so, it's always hard for me to be too openhanded. But, I've seen people that have visited, that have been impressed, that ones come up to them, & welcome them, despite their race, dress, demeanor, etc. But, in all my years, I've also seen people get the wrong idea about how people were treating them, including ones that were raised as JW's that felt other JW's looked down upon them. I myself have a tendancy to think people don't like me, but I always somehow these days, "try" to shrug it off.
And, yeah it's hard when you raise your child a certain way, & they end up messed up, I've seen that a million times. I feel there's a balance to how you raise a child, no matter what your religion. But even then, there's also the influence of other's they meet thruout their life that also make a difference, so 2 children, raised by the same people, the same way, end up being totally different. If those people treated you coldly, I'm sorry about that, that's not right.
As for converting, we don't exactly go out directly to do that, it's still a person's choice whatever they want to believe. We are out to preach the good news of God's Kingdom first & foremost. We go by 2 main scriptures. Mathew 24:14(which is a prophecy)This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations, & then the end will come. And Mathew 28:19 & 20(which is a command)Go therefore & make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, & the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you until the conclusion of the system of things. So, the scripture doesn't say go therefore & force your beliefs upon others, but it does say to make disciples, so we all try to follow that commanment, & bring the message of God's Kingdom to others. As for "soul saving" I don't think that was a Witness, since people that say that, seem to be speaking about an immortal soul, which we don't believe in.
As for Christianity, we were Jews in the time of the Hebrew scritptures, but Jesus saw how corrupt the Pharisee's & Saducee's were, & some became Christians, & some stayed Jew's, so, yeah, I know about that. :)
BTW, Nod, have I ever tried to convert you :) Nope, I may state my beliefs, but, I don't try to force my opinion....atleast, I don't think I do :?: And, actually, I'm not sure about other religions, but, with all the Witnesses I know, we're really dirverse. We all have our own tastes in music(though some music is advised against like rap because of reputations that some music has for raunchy lyrics, but they don't say DO NOT LISTEN TO IT.......speaking of which, I've been listening to hip hop since I was a wee lad.....but not the stuff on the radio, I'm an indie/underground head), different tastes in movies(R-rated are advised against, which is understandable, but there are a few I watch, like Office Space, but don't tell anyone, K :D ), hobbies(like video games, though, I only know 1 or 2, that are into it like me :D ), etc. So, we deffinitly have individuality. It seems, & correct me if I'm wrong, that other religions have their own music that they make them listen to(like all those infomercials). I guess maybe they're not forced, but, it just seems like that's all they listen to, is Christian music......which we don't listen to at all! We do have our own songs that we sing at the begining, middle, & end of a meeting, as I'm sure you know, but, you won't see us in a tricked out Christianmobile bumping Kingdom Melodies. And that's not to say I never listen to them in my car, I do, but it's just different. I'm not sure how else to explain it.
Oh, & we do put emphasis on being together to discuss the scriptures, & we also do our own research as individuals. But, I feel it is important to be together with ones with the same beliefs, especially when this world can become so tiring.
Title: Religion
Post by: GUTS on December 08, 2005, 08:09:41 PM
Holy shit, did that guy just say that he used to pull a FLAIL on mormons and that a group of christians tried to assassinate him? HAHAHA! As bullshit made-up stories go, that's actually pretty funny. I can just picture a bunch of christians sitting around their church-
"This flail toting pagan guy and his 11 rules of the earth are really throwing a monkey wrench in our plans! Word on the street is that he is secretly writing a 12th rule and forging and even BIGGER flail as we speak, you all realize of course that this means war!"
"You mean like a holy war against the satanic forces he's martialing against us?"
"No I mean we just straight up kill him, f*ck all that 'thou shalt not murder' shit!"
HAHAHAHA awesome.
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 08, 2005, 11:29:54 PM
Nope PD, you've never tried to convert me. :D
GUTS, I'm glad you find my life so amusing. :D
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 09, 2005, 05:24:06 PM
The problem I see with this PD is that you admit to being a individual in your group,but the things you list as doing that make you unique you seem to have to hide from the others in your group,if not all,some at least,which makes you complies to the comformist.You cant openly admit you watch these movies,listen to this music,blah blahblah blah.Do you,ok let me rephrase this,as I do not know wether you actually play this or not,watch this or that,but lets say you do play Doom 3,Quake 4,Narc,GTA 3- San Andreas,watch Natural Born Killers,Office Space,the Damn Show,Vampire Hunter D,IWA Death Matches,listen to your hip hop, and what not.If you admited to doing these things,did not hide them,do you think youd be eligible to be a Elder in your congergation?Do you think youd be embrased for being a individual? Even though your this really great guy,devoted husband,wonderful father,never un-employed,taking care of the family,and what not,lets say you did all the above,thi swould def make you unique,and not fitting into the status quo.Do you think they would embrase you as a individual if you openly admited to doing all these things? I dont think so.Actually,as you said,you pretty much have to hide your lifestyle from them so that you can fit in. To me a great religion,and group to be apart of would be where your were not looked down on for these little things,scolded,not allowed to speak,defelowshipped,or anything involving a form of isolation,worried about being singled out,ect,but instead praised/embrased for all the good/great/wonderful qualities you exhibit as a human being,as a father,husband,worker,person in general. To me,if this was the main concern in the group,religion,church,whatever,it would strengthen,and prosper far better.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 09, 2005, 06:40:27 PM
Um, actually, people know I listen to hip hop, & sometimes watch rated R movies(though it's rare for me to watch those). Infact, my dad is an elder, & has watched rated R movies, & knows that I sometimes do, but at the same time, none of these things are things that we go around promoting. None of these things are immoral or anything, they're just not recomended. Also, I would never play Doom 3, or anything like that, those games are fricken disgusting IMO. Would I even want to be an elder? No, that's not something I think I'm capable of. But, I'm totally my own individual, & people know & see that, like they see everyone else in our congregation as individuals, so I don't see your point. There's things some of us might be into, that we're not going to promote, even if they are clean, like most the hip hop I listen to, because I don't like cussing. In otherwords, we don't go around telling people, hey, we watched this movie, or listened to this album, what'd be the point in that.
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 09, 2005, 09:34:26 PM
The links could go on and on,but I figure a few of you on here might find this stuff informing,or entertaining,or useless.Depends on how you look at it I suppose. The first link,all its information,everything it states,I can attest to and say its all truth.I divorced a JWs daughter,who at the time was still attending the Kingdom Hall,and the tactics listed did happen to me to the T,my divorce was bitter,and lasted 2 years,and cost me a fortune,and after all this,the supposedly wonderful loving JW daughter turned out to be a repeate clepto,probation violating,harrassing,child molesting meth addict whore,whose parents covered up for all these years untill now,after they started to realize their religion was not going to change,or save their daughter,and that they were in fact wrong,and taht what they did cause more harm to their grandchildren then they will ever wish to admit to taking even 1 percent of responsibility for.If they wouldnt have continusly back stabbed me,backed me when their daughter started her path to begin with,nothing would have happened to my children.But things like losing eldership at the time were more important.That and back stabbing me because I was a athiest.It didnt mean shit to them because at the time I was evil,I wasnt a JW.There may be a slight posibility,maybe even more then that that your not like this PD,but I think,and there are too many others in the world to account for this and can attest to all over the world,not just in dumb ass arkansas,that the group that you retain membership with is infact made up of a majority of spineless puppets,and inconsiderate asswipes,and mindless conformist.If you are infact what you say you are,and there were more people like you leading the group,being the "Elders",maybe youd stand a chance and have a shot at changing this image,but as it stands,this image was earned,with alot of hard work.I understand and feel sorry for you.Its hard to admit,to see outside what your taught,what you grew up to believe,and evolve.I knwo youd argue this up and down and state Im wrong,but I along with "millions" of others have felt the JWs wraith,in one way or another.Anyone here who only has to go through the typical door to door should consider yourselves lucky,because after you slam that door shut,its over.Its also sad that I have to feel like now my ex inlaws are better people then when they were in fact my extended family.They are still heavy JW,and thats fine,but I hate that it took all of this mess that their daughter did to have them finally open their eyes and see how they were being.And I cant even begin to imangine how it is for them,at the age of 60 now,to have to go trough all this.I really feel sorry for them.I think if they could have been people first,JWs second,soem of the thinsg that happened could have,would have been avoided.But the past cant be changed,and I hope they dont carry the burden of regret.Their daughter is their own person. O yea,btw PD,I have never known any guy who has fallen for a JW girl.Not once.When I met my ex,she was fully against her parents.She didnt start to agree with their views untill it served her purposes.Once it didnt anymore,she ditched those views,86 them. Id rather have a Doom playing,r watching,NIN loving woman,or for that matter a opera loving book reading,multi religion studing,openminded woman at my side,not a single minded,told what to do,programed for Jehova fearing robot child who couldnt survive if seperated from the Borg woman,or girl,any day of the week.
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 09, 2005, 09:36:40 PM
Come on PD,just try some 2Live Crew,it will be good for ya!!!
Title: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on December 10, 2005, 04:49:55 AM
Mike, you make some good points, but as I had to learn from my experiences with bad Christians, not everyone is the same, regardless of the label they bear. It is true that a good number of people cling so fiercely to their religion that common sense rolls off of them like water off of a duck's back. But not everyone is like that. PD is a good example of a JW who isn't a zealot or a fundamentalist. If he was, I wouldn't be able to work with him. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's a censor, whining and babbling on about the moral ramifications of the work I do, and a censor who's also a religious zealot is the absolute worst and gives me thoughts of "returning in kind" what happened to me and my late ex. Most of Frozen Utopia is religious in some way, only a few of us are atheist, yet we all get along because we have one thing that a great deal of people do not have, and that is tolerance.
It's good to be atheist, and it's good to fight ignorance whenever it rears its ugly head. But, also realize two things: those who choose to remain ignorant are not worthy of you and your time, and there will always be ignorant people in this world...they provide us with two things: a shining example of what kind of person NOT to be, and quite frankly...a great source of entertainment. :D
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 10, 2005, 07:43:19 AM
Wow, those links are hilarious, especially things like calling one's mate an agent of Satan, so to speak, as if they have some link to Satan, that's a good laugh. And a good Witness never divorces someone, just because their mate is of another religion. The only ground for divorce, is adultery, that's it, that's what's in the Bible. When a so called Witness divorces someone on any other grounds, we're not happy with that, since it goes against the Bible's principles, but we still associate with them.
A cult??? That's one of the biggest laughs in there. As I already stated, a cult is a group that follows a human individual........who the hell is this guy that we supposedly follow?? And since when to we not associate with non JW relatives? That's a new one :lol: And a person will die at Armageddon, if they don't get there children away from their non believing mate, wow, don't know where they pulled that one out of, they obviously haven't done their research. And, btw, lying is a sin, lyer's will not inherit God's kingdom, so, the notion that we'd lie to anyone, just to get our children, blah blah, total BS. Justitfied lying, wow, that's hilarious.
Elderly people that are lonely are easy to so called "convert"? Quite the opposite! Most elderly people are set in their ways, & don't want to think about anything else.
I'm sorry, there's just too much BS in there to even comment on, I could go on forever, but it wouldn't matter, you have your own opinion, & your entitled to that.
BTW, this thread was started by K, just to see what people's beliefs were, not to go around saying what's wrong with other peoples beliefs. I'm sure I'm guilty too, since I put down Christmas & such, so I probably shouldn't have done that in the manner that I did.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 10, 2005, 07:45:23 AM
Oh, & 2 Live Crew sucks IMO, they're not the most intelligent group IMO. I'm more of an Aceyalone, Jurassic 5, Public Enemy, etc. kind of guy :)
Title: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on December 11, 2005, 05:43:10 AM
I was joking about 2Live Crew,because of the cussing,just wanted to yank your chain.
Title: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on December 11, 2005, 10:03:38 AM
I figured as much :D I listen to some hip hop with cussing, especially when there's a group that I love, but there's no clean version, like with some of the Wu-tang's stuff, though sometimes I make my own clean version. I just feel that cussing takes away from what's being said in a song, so when I hear alot of it, it's a turn off to me.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 17, 2007, 09:32:12 AM
Nice points, Nod. I'm not an athiest and I even agree with your points. I never understood that "Pagan is bad" thing either.
From an Islamic perspective, "Pagan is bad" only if the Pagan rituals are not based on Truth. Glorifying Truth is glorifying Allah, but Glorifying "other than the truth" is glorifying something other than Allah. (Qur'An 21:18)
There is a story in this Surah (chapter) of the Qur'An about Abraham, and some pagans/idolators (Qur'An 21:51-75). To summarize the story, the prophet Abraham happens upon a group of pagans, who worship stone idols. Abraham tells them that Allah is God, and Abraham tells them that he plans to plot against their idols. Abraham destroys the idols except for the chief idol, and asks the idolators to ask the chief who destroyed the rest of the idols. They were made to realize that their pagan traditions were not based on Truth. Abraham says clearly that their pagan gods do neither good nor harm, and that worshipping them makes no sense. The pagans became angry and tried to kill Abraham, but Abraham was delivered by Allah and was able to escape.
Since the pagans in this story chose to value their pagan traditions more than the real Truth, the traditions are "bad" from an Islamic perspective. They only serve to waste time and take people away from submitting to the Truth.
In answer to Keranu's original question about what our religious beliefs are, I'm a Muslim, and I believe that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the last and greatest Messenger of Allah.
http://www.noi.org/
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 17, 2007, 09:38:44 AM
I am not an atheist, as the term atheism implies another set of beliefs. Rather, I'm an anti-theist patiently waiting for a post-theist society. 8)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nat on October 17, 2007, 09:40:00 AM
You never know what long-forgotten post will be risen from the ashes...
WISE FWOM YOUR GWAVE!!
I wonder if Keranu is still into Islam??
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 17, 2007, 10:03:28 AM
This is a really weird topic
I am a Jedi like my father before me
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: guyjin on October 17, 2007, 10:27:14 AM
So, yeah, I'm an Atheist too. (i wonder if they put anti-religion hypno-chips in the TG16?)
i kinda took a while to get there. I was sort of deistic for a while, and then I had this stupid wiccan phase, and then I was Agnostic, and then I realized it was all baloney.
It's funny that we get all huffy and mad over game console arguments but are pretty laid back about religion :-s
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 17, 2007, 11:14:26 AM
Quote
It's funny that we get all huffy and mad over game console arguments but are pretty laid back about religion Eh?
Atheism does what religion don't!!! :P
Who says we don't get huffy? hehe
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 17, 2007, 05:21:23 PM
In answer to Keranu's original question about what our religious beliefs are, I'm a Muslim, and I believe that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the last and greatest Messenger of Allah.
http://www.noi.org/
Wow, a Nation of Islam Muslim on the forums! Asalaam alaikum wa rahmatuallah wa barakatuh! When I originally posted how I didn't think pagans were bad, I was referring to a more modern version of pagans, not like the old Meccan ones who did various nasty acts like killing daughters and sacrificing children, etc... I'm well aware of Ibrahim's (saw) story and it's mentioned in other parts of the Quran as well and he's one of the prophets I look up to the most and is a real strong point in the history of Islam.
Quote from: rag-time4
I wonder if Keranu is still into Islam??
I'm probably a trillion times more into Islam than I was when I first made this post, haha. I made this back before I even said shahadah. It's good to see other brothers on the forum.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 17, 2007, 06:39:43 PM
I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic high school. I was never very religious and didn't really even think about it until I met someone who actually believed in the Adam and Eve story in the Bible. I didn't say anything to him, but I just couldn't comprehend that someone, anyone, could actually hold that as actual truth! That made me take a long hard look at religion as a whole, and I decided it was illogical. I suppose I am an atheist since I don't believe in any gods, but I don't like that term since it sounds kind of abrasive. When I asked I prefer to say that I'm not religious.
I think religion is mainly used for power and money these days. Lots of people are religious because they were raised that way and cannot imagine things being any other way. Others are religious because they simply want to believe in an afterlife and immortality (re: fear of death). I do not think one needs religion to have morals. The belief in gods has always seemed rather primitive, and most religions got their start back when there was little scientific understanding of, well, anything. How the hell is man going to rationalize his creation in those days? Believing in a higher power really is the only way such a simple mind can comprehend it. But mankind is aging and learning more and more. While we certainly don't know everything and never could, I think religion will be well on the decline for the next couple hundred years or so.
I really like this quote: "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things." That's is just awesome. Think of mankind as the child in this scenario. When he was young we created religion. Now that we are starting to mature, many are seeing differently and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.
All religions are wrong. If they weren't, why would there be so many? Wouldn't god want everyone to believe in the correct way? What makes YOUR religion the correct one and every other religion the wrong one (I'm not speaking to any specific forum member here)? If you believe in the wrong religion, you are doing a disservice to god and he might smite you. Are you absolutely CERTAIN that you believe in the correct religion? Are you willing to take that risk?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 17, 2007, 06:50:05 PM
I don't give a f*ck if anything's up there or not, but it's probably not. I'm like Joe, when someone asks, I'm "not religious".
"When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."
f*ck that. I still buy action figures, eat sugary breakfast cereal, listen to loud annoying techno, watch cartoons, enjoy going to places like Toys 'R Us, play an obsessive amount of videogames, stay up late reading comics, blow things up with firecrackers, mix candy with soda (2 whole boxes of Nerds + 1 bottle Mountain Dew Code Red, baby), shoot things with BB guns, make prank phone calls, find weird bugs and other miscellaneous childish acts.
You and your quote can go to old fogey hell.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Turbo D on October 17, 2007, 07:22:24 PM
I'm with Kitsunexus. LoL at old man Redifur :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 17, 2007, 07:22:43 PM
Hmm, though, as a child, I didn't understand the concept of God, the Bible, Adam & Eve, etc. Now that I'm older, I do :-k
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 17, 2007, 07:24:32 PM
f*ck that. I still buy action figures, eat sugary breakfast cereal, listen to loud annoying techno, watch cartoons, enjoy going to places like Toys 'R Us, play an obsessive amount of videogames, stay up late reading comics, blow things up with firecrackers, mix candy with soda (2 whole boxes of Nerds + 1 bottle Mountain Dew Code Red, baby), shoot things with BB guns, make prank phone calls, find weird bugs and other miscellaneous childish acts.
You and your quote can go to old fogey hell.
Don't let the hair on your sack fool you, you're still not a man if you're playing with those action figures with the reckless abandon of a four year old, eating the cereal while pitching a fit because your brother took the enclosed toy, or begging mommy to buy you something shiny at TRU and throwing a tantrum when she says no. There's a profound difference between being a bit immature at times and reasoning as a child would.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 18, 2007, 06:02:46 AM
Quote from: Necromancer
For someone who's not religious, Joe did a nice job of quoting the bible (Corinthians 13:11).
I know, that's one of the reasons I like the quote so much. I use religion against itself.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 18, 2007, 06:21:04 AM
Guyjin, great image. I believe that any real Truth is good enough to follow, even the stories of the Africans menioned in box 1. The fact that much of that Truth has been corrupted and confused later on doesn't make the original Truth any less True.
Sadly, even though the Holy Qur'An is still presented in its original Arabic, there are many sects and divisions within the Arab-speaking Muslim community (which is forbidden by the Qur'An, by the way...).
Even among the Nation of Islam Muslims here in the U.S. there are divisions, particularly between those who accept Brother Minister Farrakhan and those who don't... but with the exception of what happened to Brother Malcolm X, the Nation of Islam Muslims are setting an example on how differing groups can coexist without spilling each others blood.
Wow, a Nation of Islam Muslim on the forums! Asalaam alaikum wa rahmatuallah wa barakatuh! When I originally posted how I didn't think pagans were bad, I was referring to a more modern version of pagans, not like the old Meccan ones who did various nasty acts like killing daughters and sacrificing children, etc... I'm well aware of Ibrahim's (saw) story and it's mentioned in other parts of the Quran as well and he's one of the prophets I look up to the most and is a real strong point in the history of Islam.
I'm probably a trillion times more into Islam than I was when I first made this post, haha. I made this back before I even said shahadah. It's good to see other brothers on the forum.
Wa alaikum salaam brother!
I think just about everyone here will bear witness that you set a great example on how people can get along together peacefully and treat one another with respect.
With regards to pagans, even more peaceful modern ones... I believe that the reason paganism is bad is that it represents belief in "other than the Truth", which is a waste of time. Allah wants humanity, I believe, to submit to the Truth. So when people submit to "other than the Truth," naturally this is in opposition to the Will of Allah.
The condemnation of the "christmas tree" in the book of Jeremiah in the Bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2010%20;&version=50;) is a good example, I think, of the reason that even relatively harmless pagan traditions are "bad."
This story says essentially the same thing as the story of Abraham I posted above.
This is perhaps my thesis (Jeremiah 10:8 ): "But they are altogether dull-hearted and foolish; A wooden idol is a worthless doctrine."
Allah doesn't want people to be dull hearted and foolish, following useless customs and wasting time. I believe he wants us to be righteous Muslims, in submission to the Truth.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nat on October 18, 2007, 06:59:51 AM
"When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."
f*ck that. I still buy action figures, eat sugary breakfast cereal, listen to loud annoying techno, watch cartoons, enjoy going to places like Toys 'R Us, play an obsessive amount of videogames, stay up late reading comics, blow things up with firecrackers, mix candy with soda (2 whole boxes of Nerds + 1 bottle Mountain Dew Code Red, baby), shoot things with BB guns, make prank phone calls, find weird bugs and other miscellaneous childish acts.
You and your quote can go to old fogey hell. [/QUOTE] That's because you're still a child. ;)
Seriously, though, you're 19 right? I've changed a shitload since I was 19 (going on 26 now). You don't think it happens, but it does. Those things you list that you find so much joy in today start to slowly slip out of your life. You don't realize it's happening until you stop and realize, hey, it's been 5 years since I made a prank call. Or hey, it's been 8 years since I beat up my little brother for stealing the toy out of my cereal box. Or even-- hey, it's been 8 years since I beat up my little brother for ANY reason.
Yeah, I still play video games quite a bit, but that's part of my life and I imagine it always will be to some extent. I play a lot more now and can appreciate much more in the games than I did as a kid first playing the NES in 1987.
It's funny, your message made me realize how long it's been since I've blown anything up with some kind of fire cracker or explosive.
As far as religion goes, I'm with Joe all the way. I was raised by athiest parents, but I actually got into religion a little bit in middle school when I went out with this Mormon chick. I learned quite a bit about the religion, and that's kind of when I decided for myself that many religions are f*cked up and flawed to begin with. In high school, I dated and had a serious relationship (4 years or so) with a girl who was raised in a Christian family. I went to church with them often but her parents absolutely hated me because I wasn't Christian and thus wasn't "Godly." Chrisitianity was slightly less f*cked up than Mormonism, but in the end only reaffirmed what I'd already discovered.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 18, 2007, 07:03:05 AM
I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic high school. I was never very religious and didn't really even think about it until I met someone who actually believed in the Adam and Eve story in the Bible. I didn't say anything to him, but I just couldn't comprehend that someone, anyone, could actually hold that as actual truth! That made me take a long hard look at religion as a whole, and I decided it was illogical. I suppose I am an atheist since I don't believe in any gods, but I don't like that term since it sounds kind of abrasive. When I asked I prefer to say that I'm not religious.
I think religion is mainly used for power and money these days. Lots of people are religious because they were raised that way and cannot imagine things being any other way. Others are religious because they simply want to believe in an afterlife and immortality (re: fear of death). I do not think one needs religion to have morals. The belief in gods has always seemed rather primitive, and most religions got their start back when there was little scientific understanding of, well, anything. How the hell is man going to rationalize his creation in those days? Believing in a higher power really is the only way such a simple mind can comprehend it. But mankind is aging and learning more and more. While we certainly don't know everything and never could, I think religion will be well on the decline for the next couple hundred years or so.
I really like this quote: "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things." That's is just awesome. Think of mankind as the child in this scenario. When he was young we created religion. Now that we are starting to mature, many are seeing differently and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.
All religions are wrong. If they weren't, why would there be so many? Wouldn't god want everyone to believe in the correct way? What makes YOUR religion the correct one and every other religion the wrong one (I'm not speaking to any specific forum member here)? If you believe in the wrong religion, you are doing a disservice to god and he might smite you. Are you absolutely CERTAIN that you believe in the correct religion? Are you willing to take that risk?
Joe, my mom went to a Catholic high school too. She came out of that experience totally against organized religion in all forms. She was very upset by her teachers, who she felt didn't do a good job of answering her questions when she asked questions about Catholicism.
When I was first exploring religion and getting into Islam, I was dating a Catholic woman. I used to ask her questions here and there about her beliefs but I was never really impressed with her answers. It was really a case of her being raised into it and not really thinking critically about it too much.
I believe we should test all religions, ideas, and beliefs as much as we can, and accept whatever we find to be true.
When I was younger I used to agree with Karl Marx that "religion is the opiate of the masses," but when I discovered the Nation of Islam, I had to discard Marx' idea on religion as it was disproven, for me, by the fact that the Nation of Islam is centered about taking an already-opiated people and cleaning them up, and putting them in positions of leadership.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 18, 2007, 07:33:43 AM
Chrisitianity was slightly less f*cked up than Mormonism, but in the end only reaffirmed what I'd already discovered.
Pssst! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. Mormons) is a branch of Christianity. Keep it quiet; it's a secret. :lol:
I fully understand what you're saying though (just replace 'Christianity' with 'Lutheran', 'Protestant', 'Baptist', or whatever). It's difficult to keep a straight face when a member of one Christian church argues that his church is better than another. "Uh, mine's better 'cause..... ah, we don't have to kneel during mass. Yeah, that's it."
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nat on October 18, 2007, 10:13:07 AM
She was baptist, although I won't pretend to understand the heirarchy or organizational relationships of popular religion.
The Mormons seemed quite a bit more f*cked up (that's the only way I can really describe it) than the baptists. I suppose the basis of the beliefs was the same/similar. But magic underwear? C'mon.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: guyjin on October 18, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
Guyjin, great image. I believe that any real Truth is good enough to follow, even the stories of the Africans menioned in box 1. The fact that much of that Truth has been corrupted and confused later on doesn't make the original Truth any less True.
Any book can look wise and good and true when you willfuly ignore the parts that are foolish and evil and false. Sort of like saying the SegaCD is a good system if you ignore the FMV crap.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 18, 2007, 11:16:58 AM
Guyjin, great image. I believe that any real Truth is good enough to follow, even the stories of the Africans menioned in box 1. The fact that much of that Truth has been corrupted and confused later on doesn't make the original Truth any less True.
Any book can look wise and good and true when you willfuly ignore the parts that are foolish and evil and false. Sort of like saying the SegaCD is a good system if you ignore the FMV crap.
It's not the "book" itself that "looks wise and good" to me, only the Truth in the book.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 18, 2007, 12:41:58 PM
Guyjin, great image. I believe that any real Truth is good enough to follow, even the stories of the Africans menioned in box 1. The fact that much of that Truth has been corrupted and confused later on doesn't make the original Truth any less True.
Any book can look wise and good and true when you willfuly ignore the parts that are foolish and evil and false. Sort of like saying the SegaCD is a good system if you ignore the FMV crap.
Or saying that the SNES was a good system if you ignore all the horrible, shit games for retards.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nat on October 18, 2007, 02:48:06 PM
Guyjin, great image. I believe that any real Truth is good enough to follow, even the stories of the Africans menioned in box 1. The fact that much of that Truth has been corrupted and confused later on doesn't make the original Truth any less True.
Any book can look wise and good and true when you willfuly ignore the parts that are foolish and evil and false. Sort of like saying the SegaCD is a good system if you ignore the FMV crap.
Or saying that the SNES was a good system if you ignore all the horrible, shit games for retards.
Hahaha..... We can always count on GUTS to diss the SNES at every opportunity.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 18, 2007, 02:54:46 PM
I am not an atheist, as the term atheism implies another set of beliefs. Rather, I'm an anti-theist patiently waiting for a post-theist society. 8)
That's not what atheist means, it's more or less what modern-day atheists have become. The word "atheism" means "no theism", or a lack of theistic beliefs. It's not a ruleset, it's not a religion. Although I do have to say that I too am awaiting a post-theist society...but that won't be the USA, there are too many zealots and charlatans left who are indoctrinating young children against their will into religion. All religious schools should be destroyed. Faith is a very personal thing, but religion is constantly being beaten into the heads of our youth; they grow up with whatever faith system was implanted into their heads during their childhood and rarely have a chance to develop one of their own. I personally oppose all organized religion, as history shows time and time again without exception that it is merely a tool that a corrupt person will use for their own personal gain against the naive masses of sheep who are looking for salvation and peace.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Black Tiger on October 18, 2007, 03:43:35 PM
Or saying that the SNES was a good system if you ignore all the horrible, shit games for retards.
Hahaha..... We can always count on GUTS to diss the SNES at every opportunity.
I seriously do this to enjoy the decent games for various consoles. Hardware is irrelevant, I'll try any half-decent game if it might be fun. Even if a system only has a game or two I like, its worthwhile to me. Of course, I'm talking mainly cheap retro consoles. The PS3 is still only an expensive bluray movie player to me. :P
I am not an atheist, as the term atheism implies another set of beliefs. Rather, I'm an anti-theist patiently waiting for a post-theist society. 8)
That's not what atheist means, it's more or less what modern-day atheists have become. The word "atheism" means "no theism", or a lack of theistic beliefs.
This is why I don't label myself or identify myself under someone else's beliefs.
Quote
It's not a ruleset, it's not a religion.
Try telling that to people who call themselves atheists and congregate with fellow atheists and are confrontational to people who don't identify themselves by the same title... -or people with various learned beliefs who label those of us who don't practice any standardized beliefs/religion/etc as such. :wink:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 03:53:54 PM
I'm not talking about us as individuals, I'm talking about mankind as a whole. I guess this is not a good place for comprehension.
I understand the concept of God, Adam and Eve and the Bible. The problem is that I don't believe in blind faith. That's retarded.
I really enjoy reading comments like these from non-religious people because most of the time it agrees with Islam :mrgreen: . Islam is not a religion of blind faith, but a religion of rationality and thought. The Quran tells us to use logic when reading it and frequently asks mankind to reflect their thoughts on various subjects.
Quote from: Joe
All religions are wrong. If they weren't, why would there be so many?
I'll answer this from an Islamic perspective. There are so many different religions because a lot of them are man made. In Islam, we believe the religion has been around since Adam (peace be upon him) and passed down from generation to generation with a prophet sent to every nation. Through time and ignorance, mankind has corrupted the message which led it to different religions. When god sent the final messenger, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), his final revelation was revealed in the form of the Quran and the message has been kept intact for over 1,400 years. Even if you were to destory every Quran on the planet, the message would still exist thanks to the thousands of Muslims who have remembered the entire Quran.
Quote from: Joe
Wouldn't god want everyone to believe in the correct way?
How is anyone to say how god works? To answer your question though, many religions preach how this life is but a trial, so of course there are going to be those who don't believe in the religion and it's all god's plan. We are told in the Quran that there are people out there who simply won't listen or understand a word you say because that's just the way they are and I can't agree with this enough as I have talked to several people who have words going in one ear and straight out the other. You also have to keep in mind the shaitan's (satan) duty is to mislead people the best he can - what a tricky bastard!
Quote from: Joe
What makes YOUR religion the correct one and every other religion the wrong one (I'm not speaking to any specific forum member here)?
Religion is about faith, not fact. Islam is correct to me because I personally believe it, but I am not going to go around telling non-Muslims they are wrong because they don't accept Islam. I care more about people's respect than faith.
Quote from: Joe
If you believe in the wrong religion, you are doing a disservice to god and he might smite you.
Not necessarily true. You don't have to be a Muslim to enter jannah (paradise) from an Islampic perspective. "Islam" is Arabic for "submission to god" and by that definition, you're technically a Muslim if you just believe in one god. We are told that Christians and Jews are able to enter Jannah (paradise) as well the Sabians and as far as I know, anyone who just believes in one god, are allowed to enter as well. Children are automatically accepted.
Quote from: rag-time4
Sadly, even though the Holy Qur'An is still presented in its original Arabic, there are many sects and divisions within the Arab-speaking Muslim community (which is forbidden by the Qur'An, by the way...).
Yes this is most unfortunate :( . I'm sure Muhammad (pbuh) would've greatly disapproved of the way the following caliphs behaved.
Quote from: ragtime
I think just about everyone here will bear witness that you set a great example on how people can get along together peacefully and treat one another with respect.
I think there is a misconception that different religions hate each other. We are not taught "hate" in Islam (and I'm sure several other religions as well) period. Jews and Christians are "People of the Book" and believe in much of the same as I do, so they are practically brothers to me, but I consider mankind as a whole as a brotherhood in humanity. By the way, people need to quit hating on Mormons because despite whatever they choose to believe in, they will remain to be friendlier people than most are and that's what counts.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 18, 2007, 04:00:47 PM
Well said Keranu. It's really too bad that many people actually believe that Islam is about hatred. :(
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 04:01:20 PM
Try telling that to people who call themselves atheists and congregate with fellow atheists and are confrontational to people who don't identify themselves by the same title... -or people with various learned beliefs who label those of us who don't practice any standardized beliefs/religion/etc as such. :wink:
I can't agree with that enough. I have no problem with atheists, but there are plenty I've seen and talked to who have treated their view as a dogmatic belief making them no better than a religious person enforcing his views on people. Heck just look them up YouTube! :D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 04:03:44 PM
Well said Keranu. It's really too bad that many people actually believe that Islam is about hatred. :(
I don't really think any religion is about hatred and a lack of religion certainly isn't about hatred because it has nothing to be based on :mrgreen: .
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 18, 2007, 04:11:42 PM
There's always going to be someone who f*cks up a religion, or the view of what the religion was intended to be. This also applies to atheism.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
In other words, there is always the dipshit who presses the big red button :P .
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 18, 2007, 05:33:56 PM
Red Shiny button?! Must....press........the big.......red......shiny..........button.....
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: TR0N on October 18, 2007, 05:40:10 PM
Red Shiny button?! Must....press........the big.......red......shiny..........button.....
Ya mean this person :wink: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/MetalSlug01/bush_foolme.gif) Afther all bush is fooled since he thinks god is on his side.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 18, 2007, 06:47:09 PM
The difference between my trolling and your trolling is that I'm sometimes funny. Oh and I use pictures. But sometimes it's funny.
No
GUTS is funny, read his site okay
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 18, 2007, 07:38:38 PM
Keranu, what is with covering women up and growing a beard? Doesn't the Quran/Koran/Dual Core insist that women serve man? How about aliens? I think Christianity insists we are the only ones in the universe. Also, why are there different sects of Muslims (Sunnies, Shitties, and something else). Which one isn't the one going to hell? Is hell fun?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 18, 2007, 07:47:35 PM
Islamic hell is more like Christian purgatory so it is a cool place to kick back and chat it up with Ted Kaczynski before God forgives you
The branches of Islam are kinda like the branches of Christianity in that one thinks the Roman pope is totally cool and the other thinks Avignon pope could kick his ass in Parcheesi anyday of the week including the Sabbath
The other stuff is stupid stuff that humans made up for some reason, I think, but I am a Jedi what do I know about things other than the Force
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 18, 2007, 07:48:23 PM
The Bible doesn't say there are no aliens. So, it's always possible that there are indeed aliens. Me personally, I just don't think there are, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 18, 2007, 07:49:21 PM
The Bible doesn't say there are no aliens. So, it's always possible that there are indeed aliens. Me personally, I just don't think there are, but I could be wrong.
The Fermi Paradox vs The Mediocrity Principle
You can't give it up! Triumph or die!
Personally, I think the Fermi Paradox wins in the long run, but I am biased since I think Enrico Fermi was pretty rad. :?
EDIT: Ironically, I think I might actually be attending a nerd lecture on this at the Science & Industry Museum tomorrow!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 18, 2007, 07:59:10 PM
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 18, 2007, 08:21:24 PM
Seems like most of what Keranu said, I share the same feelings & beliefs(oviously not all, since there's some different specific beliefs that differ from Muslim's to Christians).
Someone on here(was it Joe) mentioned that they see religion phasing out over the next few hundred years. I actually believe it'll be alot sooner then that. I believe that really soon the nations of the world, will be thru with religion, & will abolish the worlds religions. Infact, I believe it may be the United Nations itself that will accomplish this. In Revelation it talks about Babylon the Great(false religion that is commiting adultery with the nations of the world), a harlot who is adorned with purple & scarlet, & jewels, etc., she's riding a scarlet colored beast that "was, but is not, & yet will be present"(League of Nations, which failed, & was then replaced by the United Nations).
I believe this beast, will turn on religion, because of the all the problems that religions in general have caused the world. There's no getting around the fact that most wars, etc. have been in the name of religion, & the UN, is going to put a stop to that. And I believe this will happen in my lifetime, maybe the next 20 years, maybe 30, maybe less. It could happen in a few months for all I know. If I'm an old man, & it still hasn't happened, sure, I'll think that's strange, but that means I was wrong about when I believe this would happen. And all of this will lead up to Armageddon, of which, “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. Keep looking, keep awake, for YOU do not know when the appointed time is. It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. Therefore keep on the watch, for YOU do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find YOU sleeping. But what I say to YOU I say to all, Keep on the watch.”
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 08:22:40 PM
Keranu, what is with covering women up and growing a beard?
From the sound of this sentence, it sounds like you are saying women grow bears! The hijab (veil, meaning "to cover") is used for women to cover their modesty so perverts don't go peeking at their goodies, it's mentioned in both the Quran and hadiths. The growing of the beard, however, is only mentioned in the Hadiths, which a few Muslims don't even follow.
Quote from: Joe
Doesn't the Quran/Koran/Dual Core insist that women serve man? How about aliens? I think Christianity insists we are the only ones in the universe.
No the Quran doesn't insist that women should boil men some sausages when ever he's in the mood. God's creation isn't limited to just Earth and there is Quranic evidence that there are aliens and there is even a commentary of a verse from one of the prophet's companions that states that there are planets like Earth that even contain prophets like the ones here; read more here (http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/about122411.html). I should also comment that we aren't limited to the idea that Earth is only 9,000 or however years old that some Christians claim.
Quote from: Joe
Also, why are there different sects of Muslims (Sunnies, Shitties, and something else). Which one isn't the one going to hell? Is hell fun?
Derrek Lee summed it up really well! Basically just replace the popes with Abu Bakr and Ali and that's where the Sunnie/Shiite clash came from. Only god can say who goes to hell. And as Derek Lee stated, hell might be a good place to meet some cool evil dudes.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 18, 2007, 08:33:56 PM
Infact, I believe it may be the United Nations itself that will accomplish this.
I'm sorry, but...
MU-HU-HU-HU-HU-HU-HU-HU-HAHAHAHAHA
Seriously, the United Nations? Leading to the abolition of religion? The same United Nations that can't influence anything in the world? Mankind has had religion for its entire history, but in 20 years, thanks to the United Nations, it is going to disappear? Yeah, sure. And Sega is going to release the missing Shining Force III scenarios for the Saturn in English, too!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 18, 2007, 08:51:09 PM
Yeah, I believe the earth could be millions of years old. In Genesis, the 6 creative days don't start until after the heavens & the earth were created. And I believe in dinosaurs! I think it's wierd, when other Christians think I'm wierd for believing dinosaurs existed!
BTW, you didn't hear the latest? Sega is releasing the other scenarios via the Wii's VC! Seriously though, that's what I believe. If I end up being wrong, oh well, I'm imperfect.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 18, 2007, 08:58:38 PM
Yeah, I believe the earth could be millions of years old. In Genesis, the 6 creative days don't start until after the heavens & the earth were created. And I believe in dinosaurs! I think it's wierd, when other Christians think I'm wierd for believing dinosaurs existed!
I didn't know there were Christians that flat out disbelieved in dinosaurs. I've heard some say that they believe dinosaurs and humans co-existed.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 18, 2007, 09:09:11 PM
Yeah, I've run into some. It's really strange. I've also run into some that believe that dinosaurs were made by humans, because back then, humans were smarter.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 18, 2007, 09:09:58 PM
BTW, you didn't hear the latest? Sega is releasing the other scenarios via the Wii's VC! Seriously though, that's what I believe. If I end up being wrong, oh well, I'm imperfect.
Now I know it is like for Christians relating to Jesus' return, the extreme disappointment in not getting what you want so badly.
Thanks for teasing me, mister meanhead. [-(
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 18, 2007, 09:15:06 PM
Actually, I believe the so called 2nd coming has already happened, but I believe that his presence is totally different then what other Christians believe. And as for if I end up being wrong, I'm realistic, since we as humans, continue to study & learn, & sometimes what we believe, can be off. To err is human.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 19, 2007, 04:07:19 AM
What about Anne Coulter's latest comments about Jews? She basically said that Jews should convert to Christianity so they can go to heaven. "Christianity is the 'fast track' to perfection."
She is a monster, to be sure. However, as an atheist I find her comments actually quite funny. If you're going to take the Abrahamic religions as "G-d's" word then she's essentially right. :P
I cant believe I just sorta agreed with Anne Coulter. Sorta...kinda....barely....not really.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 19, 2007, 06:54:39 AM
What about Anne Coulter's latest comments about Jews? She basically said that Jews should convert to Christianity so they can go to heaven. "Christianity is the 'fast track' to perfection."
She is a monster, to be sure. However, as an atheist I find her comments actually quite funny. If you're going to take the Abrahamic religions as "G-d's" word then she's essentially right. :P
I cant believe I just sorta agreed with Anne Coulter. Sorta...kinda....barely....not really.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=18aYlBNjW_0
Interesting video!
One problem with her statement is that many Christians do not practice God's laws as revealed in the Old Testament.
For example, the eating of swine/pig, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2011;&version=50;) as an easy one.
This point wasn't made clear in the video, because the "Jewish" interviewer was upset with the idea that Jews need "perfecting," but I suspect that Anne Coulter and many Christians of her persuasion have discarded the laws of God and believe that by faith in Jesus that they are guaranteed a "fast track to heaven," which is some place that they will go after they die.
I agree with Coulter's statement that Jews (and everybody else) need to strive for perfection, but as a Muslim I see Jesus more as an example of perfection than "a fast track program."
Jesus, I believe, taught us to "follow him" (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=38&version=50&context=verse) as an example. When he told his followers to "take his cross," he meant that we all have our own cross -- and I don't believe he was talking about a necklace.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 19, 2007, 08:40:47 AM
Actually, I believe the so called 2nd coming has already happened, but I believe that his presence is totally different then what other Christians believe. And as for if I end up being wrong, I'm realistic, since we as humans, continue to study & learn, & sometimes what we believe, can be off. To err is human.
May I ask when it happened, according to your belief?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 19, 2007, 08:41:27 AM
Well said Keranu. It's really too bad that many people actually believe that Islam is about hatred. :(
I don't really think any religion is about hatred and a lack of religion certainly isn't about hatred because it has nothing to be based on :mrgreen: .
Keranu, what if it's based on hatred of religion?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 19, 2007, 09:18:36 AM
From the sound of this sentence, it sounds like you are saying women grow bears! The hijab (veil, meaning "to cover") is used for women to cover their modesty so perverts don't go peeking at their goodies, it's mentioned in both the Quran and hadiths. The growing of the beard, however, is only mentioned in the Hadiths, which a few Muslims don't even follow.
In the Nation of Islam, men are taught against growing beards. I believe the reason is to present an image of cleanliness and self respect, and also as a practice of discipline, among other reasons (of which I'm not aware)
The hijab is interpreted differently in different countries. In some countries, which are allies of the U.S., such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, a full facial veil is often ideal. In other Muslim societies, such as the Nation of Islam, the face may be uncovered but the hair must still be covered.
I agree with Keranu's explanation as to the reason for the hijab, but to add to it, a higher purpose is to help create a culture where men and women are constantly reminded to interact with one another not based on "lower desires" (natural sexual attraction, etc) but to interact with one another based on "higher desires" (interaction involving thinking)
Quote from: keranu
No the Quran doesn't insist that women should boil men some sausages when ever he's in the mood. God's creation isn't limited to just Earth and there is Quranic evidence that there are aliens and there is even a commentary of a verse from one of the prophet's companions that states that there are planets like Earth that even contain prophets like the ones here; read more here (http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/about122411.html). I should also comment that we aren't limited to the idea that Earth is only 9,000 or however years old that some Christians claim.
I believe that women were created to be subordinate to men, and men are created to be subordinate to God. When men stray from (or are taken from) the right path, then the order will be disrupted.
Some of the "flying saucer" phenomenon has been mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Ezekiel. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=1&version=50) It's sometimes referred to as "Ezekiel's wheel" or "the wheel of Ezekiel."
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad refers to it as the "mother plane" and that it will be used as an instrument of divine judgement against America.
Quote from: Joe
Also, why are there different sects of Muslims (Sunnies, Shitties, and something else). Which one isn't the one going to hell? Is hell fun?
The one that isn't the one going to hell is the one that accepts Allah and His Messenger, and does good.
As for hell being fun, that's an interesting question, but first we'd have to define hell.
Some believe that hell is someplace that some people have to go after they die where they will be burned for eternity. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the fire must not be very hot, if we can burn forever and never burn up.
I believe that hell is a state of being in which the people do not submit to Allah's instructions - which are in our best interest to submit to since Allah is Good and since Allah is the Greatest Knower. He wouldn't instruct us to do something that is not Good.
However, people that rebel against God's instructions may have a lot of "fun" doing so. For example, there are many people who engage in premarital sex and the use of intoxicants, possibly at the same time. It might be "fun" for them, but I believe, it is not "Good" for them. These people are really in hell, because they are not doing Good for themselves.
Satan uses "fun" to distract people and take people away from just submitting to God and doing Good.
So I think that hell can be "fun," but I also believe that hell can never be Good. What's "fun" certainly isn't always Good.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 19, 2007, 11:20:29 AM
I agree with Keranu's explanation as to the reason for the hijab, but to add to it, a higher purpose is to help create a culture where men and women are constantly reminded to interact with one another not based on "lower desires" (natural sexual attraction, etc) but to interact with one another based on "higher desires" (interaction involving thinking)
So, men must be too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions while in the presence of women, eh? Methinks it's called subjugation, nothing more and nothing less, and I'm not interested in anyone that wants to force another human to submit to their will, unless I'm wearing a leather zipper mask and paying her by the hour.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 19, 2007, 11:28:04 AM
So, men must be too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions while in the presence of women, eh? Methinks it's called subjugation, nothing more and nothing less, and I'm not interested in anyone that wants to force another human to submit to their will, unless I'm wearing a leather zipper mask and paying her by the hour.
Many men are too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions, particularly with regards to chasing women. :lol: But like I said, even more than taking care of weak-willed men, it's about creating a cultural environment where women can be respected and protected.
Keep in mind that their are rules and regulations for the way Muslim men dress too, not just women.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 19, 2007, 03:01:20 PM
Well said Keranu. It's really too bad that many people actually believe that Islam is about hatred. :(
I don't really think any religion is about hatred and a lack of religion certainly isn't about hatred because it has nothing to be based on :mrgreen: .
Keranu, what if it's based on hatred of religion?
Not sure what you're talking about exactly.
Quote from: ragtime
In the Nation of Islam, men are taught against growing beards. I believe the reason is to present an image of cleanliness and self respect, and also as a practice of discipline, among other reasons (of which I'm not aware)
So that's why Elijah Muhammad and Louis Farrakhan don't have beards :D ! I guess that's why Malcolm X didn't have one too before he became El-Hajj Malik al-Shabazz. Thanks for sharing that information. Could you explain more how it's self respect and a practice of discipline?
Quote from: ragtime
The hijab is interpreted differently in different countries. In some countries, which are allies of the U.S., such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, a full facial veil is often ideal. In other Muslim societies, such as the Nation of Islam, the face may be uncovered but the hair must still be covered.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't quite understand where the burka (full face covering) idea came from. The Quran nor the Hadiths say the face has to be covered, as far as I know.
Quote from: ragtime
Some of the "flying saucer" phenomenon has been mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Ezekiel. It's sometimes referred to as "Ezekiel's wheel" or "the wheel of Ezekiel."
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad refers to it as the "mother plane" and that it will be used as an instrument of divine judgement against America.
I'm aware of Ezekiel's wheel and I've briefly heard about the "mother plane". Was this the same ship that Farrakhan claimed to flew in one of his dreams (or was it in actual reality)?
Quote from: ragtime
Some believe that hell is someplace that some people have to go after they die where they will be burned for eternity. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the fire must not be very hot, if we can burn forever and never burn up.
Surah 4 verse 56 in the Quran mentions that our skin burns up and is replaced so it can burn again:
“Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.”
Quote from: ragtime
However, people that rebel against God's instructions may have a lot of "fun" doing so. For example, there are many people who engage in premarital sex and the use of intoxicants, possibly at the same time. It might be "fun" for them, but I believe, it is not "Good" for them. These people are really in hell, because they are not doing Good for themselves.
Satan uses "fun" to distract people and take people away from just submitting to God and doing Good.
So I think that hell can be "fun," but I also believe that hell can never be Good. What's "fun" certainly isn't always Good.
I'm not exactly sure where this is from, but it's said that this life is like heaven for the unbelievers and hell for the believers while the afterlife is the opposite.
Quote from: Necromancer
I demand explanation! How do women grow bears? Are they grizzlys, browns, polars?
Steroids maybe?
Quote from: Necromancer
So, men must be too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions while in the presence of women, eh? Methinks it's called subjugation, nothing more and nothing less, and I'm not interested in anyone that wants to force another human to submit to their will, unless I'm wearing a leather zipper mask and paying her by the hour.
We are told several times in the Quran and Hadith to lower our gaze from the opposite sex after the first accidental peek, unless of course it's someone you are talking to. Controling yourself would certainly come first I'd say, but the dress code simply makes things easier. I think it's also interesting to note that most converts to Islam are females and I've heard of female-to-male ratios being as high as 9:1.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 19, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
I find any religious texts about "modesty" or anything referring to the human body or sexuality to be complete hogwash. All of that is a human construct, though I'm not quite sure how it came to be since recorded history is rather sparse on the subject. We are born naked, and exist for only one purpose: to reproduce. That's it. Anything else is superficial nonsense tacked on by human ego. Furthermore, many religions attempt very hard to suppress normal human instinct, especially in regards to sexuality. Sexuality and religion generally don't mix in a normal, natural way, unless you subscribe to something like Levayism, where casual sex is not only permissible but encouraged as a normal human function. We as humans are sexual creatures; it's self-defeating to try to hinder this. But that's what too many religions try to do.
I also wish religious people would drop the ancient dogma about "pigs are unclean". Pigs are very clean and highly intelligent.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 19, 2007, 05:32:21 PM
I believe that women were created to be subordinate to men, and men are created to be subordinate to God.
You are an idiot
This is why religion is stupid, it leads to idiots kowtowing to obsolete and wrong doctrines
I believe men were created to be subordinate to cyborgs and cyborgs are created to be subordinate to robots
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 19, 2007, 05:56:57 PM
Why do so many who convert to the country, county and state of Islam change their names to "Muhammad"? What if everyone who did Jesus' evil bidding changed their name to Jesus? I feel sorry for the O.G. Muhammad because now when someone calls his name, a million other people answer and in fact they were just calling Muhammad Ali because he is the best Muhammad.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 19, 2007, 06:13:29 PM
I think Mohammad and Jesus are better names that Dakota and Wyatt, two names I heard today at the museum
People name their kids stupid things these days
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 19, 2007, 06:14:26 PM
Actually, I believe the so called 2nd coming has already happened, but I believe that his presence is totally different then what other Christians believe. And as for if I end up being wrong, I'm realistic, since we as humans, continue to study & learn, & sometimes what we believe, can be off. To err is human.
May I ask when it happened, according to your belief?
1914, were not the only religion that has found what we believe to be significant(& figured out something was going down that year, just weren't sure exactly what....until it happened). I'm terrible at math, so I'd have a hard time showing you how the year 1914 is added up in the scriptures. And, like I said, our view of what people call the 2nd coming is different. Alot of people believe that Jesus would litterally be riding on a cloud to earth, but that's being too literal, we believe it's a heavenly presence, & that he is with those serving him, to put it simply, but also that Satan was cast out of heaven that year, & not allowed to return. Basically, he's now trapped on earth. Before, he could go basically wherever he pleased in the universe, but, not after 1914. It's funny, my father in law has this theory, where, when you leave earth, you are no longer surrounded by Satan's presence, so you feel at peace. In otherwords, when astronaughts go up in space, & feel at peace, he thinks it's because Satan's influence can't reach there :lol: It's an interesting theory.......& maybe it's true, but, it's kind of funny to me.
Oh, & your right, most Christians don't adhere to the laws in the Bible. For instance, it says don't fornicate, yet, most Christians do it anyways. But things like not eating pig is different, since that was under the old Mosaic Law, that none of us are bound by. The 10 commandments, were under the Mosaic Law, but after Christ was sacrificed, we were no longer bound by the 10 Commandments specifically, however, most of the laws still apply, post Mosaic Law. Like thou shall not murder, honor thy parents, etc. But things like honor the Sabbath, no longer apply to our lives. Also, pig's were considered unlcean at the time, because it was probably difficult to cook or clean right, before consumption. Maybe even because they were hard to bleed? I don't know much about cooking so, not sure, but I know with blood, God considers it sacred.
Something I was thinking about, is why do people of one religion/belief date or marry people of a different religion/belief? As I get older, it just doesn't make sense to date outside of people that share your beliefs on life. When were kids, that's different, since most of us, didn't care as much about what we believed, but as we get older, whatever our stance is on life & how it got here, & why we're here, becomes our life. Rather then, it being a part of our life, along with hobbies, & such. Ofcoarse we still our have hobbies, but, I feel that what we believe in general about life, is the most important thing in our lives. So, why would a Protestant date an Atheist? A Muslim & a Mormon? A Jew & a Buhddist? Even within Christendom or Islam, why would someone of one part of those religions, date someone of another? Like, why would a Baptist date a Pentacostal? What's the point? Sure, there views are similar, but, they're not the same, & to me, that would be frusterating.
It makes sense to me now that I'm older, why were not supposed to date outside of our religion. Because it just doesn't make sense. One thing I can guess, is that these people maybe are just lustful, like we were when we were kids, & were so overjoyed that a girl liked us, despite what her religion was(I can speak, as I dated a drug addict, who didn't care about life, other then getting high & drunk & laid, thanks to her lousy parents, I was just so overjoyed that a girl found me attractive, & wanted actually asked ME out, a rarity, to be sure!). The only other thing I can think of, is maybe when people of different beliefs get together, that maybe one, or both, don't really entirely believe, what they say they believe or at all.
2 good examples of how I think it should be, would be my wife & I, & Nod & his wife. My wife & I have the same beliefs, it's a no brainer, there's no split in how we feel about life. Same goes for Nod & his wife, they believe in the same beliefs. It just makes sense for it to be that way.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 19, 2007, 07:27:31 PM
I think "mostly" a stronger person would be one able to accept someone with different beliefs and learn to find the strengths in that,as opposed to ruling out everyone of a certain class or religion except one because of fear of not being able to get along or cope or disagreements. Basically your saying you wouldn't consider dating,marrying outside your religious circle. I am not religious,not at all,but I think it is wrong,and I am sure if God exist,he/she would feel the same that it is wrong for any of you to assume that your religious perspective,point of view is the only right one.
I mean,come on. I don't remember the Bible saying God said only Baptist,or Jehovah Whiteness,Jews,Catholics,or Pentecostals are correct. I don't remember it stating God took anyones side but the one preached in that book,the basic good God fearing/having faith in God/Christ good Christian one. All of you in your basic beliefs are either going to be right,or all of you are going to be fatally wrong,because the common values you cherish are the ones all coming from the same book. You all are in the same boat in the end,at least until one of your religious sects/groups,ect finds a way to time travel and re-wright the Bible to state that only one of your groups is right.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 19, 2007, 08:16:13 PM
Why do so many who convert to the country, county and state of Islam change their names to "Muhammad"? What if everyone who did Jesus' evil bidding changed their name to Jesus? I feel sorry for the O.G. Muhammad because now when someone calls his name, a million other people answer and in fact they were just calling Muhammad Ali because he is the best Muhammad.
Actually it seems to me that a lot of people change their name to "Yusuf" (Joseph).
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 19, 2007, 09:10:47 PM
But even between different Christian religions, there's things that divide, like, we don't believe in hellfire or going to heaven(other then a very select few). So, if I ended up marrying someone who does believe in that, we have totally different views on what happens to us when we die. It just doesn't even remotely make sense to me, to have the most important thing in your life, be wrong in the eyes of the one you love.
And ofcoarse, the Bible does say "you are my witnesses", but, that's not saying, "hey, Jehovah's Witnesses are right, just because they decided to take a name that blah blah blah". But every person, should believe that what there own religion teaches is right. It doesn't make sense, to think that "everybody's right"......unless your'e a Unitarian maybe :wink: And if the Bible did say what particular religion was right, then everybody would be joining the bandwagon of that religion. It's doing God's will, doing(or not doing) all the things that are asked of a person, that makes whatever religion right or wrong. There are alot of religions that are doing good things, but, does that mean they are doing exactly what God told them to do. Mathew 5:21-23 says "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."
And before that, at Mathew 24: 15-20 it warns about there being false prophets "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]."
I can only figure there being one truth, that God pushes along & helps, whatever religion that may be. And why would God want a bunch of people that are off on their beliefs(especially, if He, not any human, but He deems them wicked), to be in the same boat, as whoever is right, & doing exactly what God asks of them? Doesn't God want us to know the truth? Or does he want people that have the semi truth, or, the false, or the completely ridiculously false, or the kind of in the right direction, etc.
However, that's not to say there will not be ones that don't have the truth, that won't survive Armageddon, there very well might be, but that's up to God, & no one else, cuz no man can judge another(though, we as humans, always tend to judge others, it's a hard habit to fight). However, if there are people, who have heard whatever the truth is, & denied it, why would God save them? If I'm wrong about my beliefs, & there's some other religion, that is the truth, & I ignore it, it's like I spit in God's face! Kind of like the Pharisees, who knew that Jesus was God's son, but instead of embracing his teachings, they plotted to have him killed!
And as for marriage in general, there's enough problems in marriages these days, with people freaking out & leaving their wives(as one of my best friends that I grew up with is doing), drowning there kids, getting pissed off about how much was spent on whatever, getting sick of the husband watching "the game" all the time & not spending any time with them, etc. Why add the stress of disagreeing about how the earth came to be, if we're reincarnated or not, if we evolved or not, if Adam & Eve are real or not. Those are important issues, that a couple should agree upon!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 20, 2007, 12:18:48 PM
I'm talking about someone's lack of religion being based on hatred for all religions.
Quote from: keranu
So that's why Elijah Muhammad and Louis Farrakhan don't have beards :D ! I guess that's why Malcolm X didn't have one too before he became El-Hajj Malik al-Shabazz. Thanks for sharing that information. Could you explain more how it's self respect and a practice of discipline?
Daily shaving could be seen as self respect and a practice of discipline if interpreted as an act of self-maintenance. It's not that anyone with a beard is necessarily unclean by any means, but rather I see daily shaving as a ritual that helps practicioners cultivate self love and self respect, which we believe has been gravely lacking in the black community in particular and in the human community in general.
Quote from: keranu
I'm aware of Ezekiel's wheel and I've briefly heard about the "mother plane". Was this the same ship that Farrakhan claimed to flew in one of his dreams (or was it in actual reality)?
Yes, it's one and the same.
Quote from: keranu
Surah 4 verse 56 in the Quran mentions that our skin burns up and is replaced so it can burn again:
“Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.”
Thank you for pointing out that verse/ayaa Keranu! Verse 57 also mentions the "pure companions" waiting for martyrs in heaven that I've heard so much about in the media.
The big difference, on this subject, between the Nation of Islam theology and other interpretations of the Qur'An has to do with the idea of whether Heaven and Hell are places people go after they physically die.
The Qur'An hints at the idea of people who are physically alive, but who are mentally and spiritually dead, such as in Qur'An 35:22 and 6:122.
Most, if not all, disagreements I have seen from Muslims and Christians is different interpretations of symbolic vs literal language in the Bible and Qur'An.
Quote from: keranu
I'm not exactly sure where this is from, but it's said that this life is like heaven for the unbelievers and hell for the believers while the afterlife is the opposite.
Right! I agree completely! I think that where we would disagree is on whether the "afterlife" is something that happens after we physically die or while we are physically alive.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 20, 2007, 12:21:54 PM
Why do so many who convert to the country, county and state of Islam change their names to "Muhammad"? What if everyone who did Jesus' evil bidding changed their name to Jesus? I feel sorry for the O.G. Muhammad because now when someone calls his name, a million other people answer and in fact they were just calling Muhammad Ali because he is the best Muhammad.
"Muhammad" means in Arabic something like "worthy of praise," at least according to Elijah Muhammad. I believe the Arabic names used by Muslims all have meaning other than just being an empty name with no deeper meaning.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: MotoRoaderMike on October 20, 2007, 03:03:24 PM
I'm a Christian and proud to be.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 20, 2007, 03:43:44 PM
Hrm...having pride in religion is almost like having pride in race. Both are pointless and really serve no purpose. Pride is good in and of itself, especially when warranted, but pride in religious beliefs leads to intolerance, which is a major contributing factor to holy wars and hatred between religions. Be proud of what you've accomplished in your life, be proud of the life you've made for yourself, be proud of how happy you are and how happy you make others, but ditch pride in the dogma you follow. It's meaningless and self-defeating.
PD made an interesting point...marrying someone of a different faith is generally not a very good idea. Sure, there are strong people out there who can accept most people the way they are (I know I can, though I am still initially distrustful of Christians), but the vast majority of people are rather weak-minded and need religion to "fit in", to give them a set of "life rules" because they can't come up with any on their own. Getting hooked up with someone who shares your beliefs frees you from the burden of changing your own comfortable system, or trying to change theirs. It also reinforces what I've been saying for many years...opposites do NOT attract, as we are humans, not magnets.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 20, 2007, 05:24:53 PM
Daily shaving could be seen as self respect and a practice of discipline if interpreted as an act of self-maintenance. It's not that anyone with a beard is necessarily unclean by any means, but rather I see daily shaving as a ritual that helps practicioners cultivate self love and self respect, which we believe has been gravely lacking in the black community in particular and in the human community in general.
Ahh, I gotcha.
Quote from: ragtime
The big difference, on this subject, between the Nation of Islam theology and other interpretations of the Qur'An has to do with the idea of whether Heaven and Hell are places people go after they physically die.
The Qur'An hints at the idea of people who are physically alive, but who are mentally and physically dead, such as in Qur'An 35:22 and 6:122.
That's interesting, I'll have to read more into that.
Quote from: ragtime
"Muhammad" means in Arabic something like "worthy of praise," at least according to Elijah Muhammad. I believe the Arabic names used by Muslims all have meaning other than just being an empty name with no deeper meaning.
I think I've read "Muhammad" translating to "the chosen one", but I might be confused with something else. Ahmed Deedat has a really interesting book and speech about Muhammad (saw) in the Bible and being the natural successor to Jesus/Isa (saw). Yusuf Ali's Quranic commentary also talks about this.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 20, 2007, 07:01:37 PM
Many men are too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions, particularly with regards to chasing women. :lol: But like I said, even more than taking care of weak-willed men, it's about creating a cultural environment where women can be respected and protected.
Keep in mind that their are rules and regulations for the way Muslim men dress too, not just women.
We are told several times in the Quran and Hadith to lower our gaze from the opposite sex after the first accidental peek, unless of course it's someone you are talking to. Controling yourself would certainly come first I'd say, but the dress code simply makes things easier. I think it's also interesting to note that most converts to Islam are females and I've heard of female-to-male ratios being as high as 9:1.
Sounds like horse shit to me. Men are not beasts that need such a crutch to keep from ravaging women on sight.
Hrm...having pride in religion is almost like having pride in race. Both are pointless and really serve no purpose. Pride is good in and of itself, especially when warranted, but pride in religious beliefs leads to intolerance, which is a major contributing factor to holy wars and hatred between religions. Be proud of what you've accomplished in your life, be proud of the life you've made for yourself, be proud of how happy you are and how happy you make others, but ditch pride in the dogma you follow. It's meaningless and self-defeating.
You're born with your race, but you choose a religion, so having pride in one is not akin to having pride in the other. To be a Christian means to live a Christian lifestyle, which involves forgiveness, generosity, renunciation of violence, marital fidelity, and helping your fellow man. I can't see anything wrong with having pride in those qualities.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: TR0N on October 20, 2007, 07:12:42 PM
Many men are too weak willed to control their thoughts and actions, particularly with regards to chasing women. :lol: But like I said, even more than taking care of weak-willed men, it's about creating a cultural environment where women can be respected and protected.
Keep in mind that their are rules and regulations for the way Muslim men dress too, not just women.
We are told several times in the Quran and Hadith to lower our gaze from the opposite sex after the first accidental peek, unless of course it's someone you are talking to. Controling yourself would certainly come first I'd say, but the dress code simply makes things easier. I think it's also interesting to note that most converts to Islam are females and I've heard of female-to-male ratios being as high as 9:1.
Sounds like horse shit to me. Men are not beasts that need such a crutch to keep from ravaging women on sight.
As already mentioned, the dress code isn't just applied to women and both sexes are advised to lower gazes and control themselves. Also from what I understand, the hijab actually originates in Judaism somehow, but I don't know much about the details.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 20, 2007, 09:28:09 PM
Since less than one percent of Americans follow this wacky dress code how do you avoid running into telephone poles in public since you always have to keep looking down at your feet :-&
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Turbo D on October 20, 2007, 10:19:51 PM
I just found out that the bible says that it is a sin to be lazy :x. So, does this mean its a sin to be lazy on your day off? Or do they mean like if you're a bum or something? :-k
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 20, 2007, 10:28:19 PM
Since less than one percent of Americans follow this wacky dress code how do you avoid running into telephone poles in public since you always have to keep looking down at your feet :-&
Cybernetic eye surgery.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 21, 2007, 12:14:30 AM
You're born with your race, but you choose a religion, so having pride in one is not akin to having pride in the other. To be a Christian means to live a Christian lifestyle, which involves forgiveness, generosity, renunciation of violence, marital fidelity, and helping your fellow man. I can't see anything wrong with having pride in those qualities.
Most religious people are indoctrinated into their religion, so it's not so simple as making a choice. Only one of strong mind can choose their religion. Because of that, you could realistically say that one is also born with their religion. And what you mention of the Christian lifestyle (which I've yet to see one actually do what you describe on a regular basis in real life, it's usually just the opposite...unforgiving, rude, obnoxious, violent, self-important pigs...but then again, people are generally this way regardless of their religion) is the same in virtually all religions.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 21, 2007, 04:23:12 AM
Ok, now I'm going to put you on the spot, since you know me(though you also know ones like DevX, so I can understand your feelings on the matter), am I an "unforgiving, rude, obnoxious, violent, self-important pig"? If I am, I'll deffinitly work on that, I'm always trying to work on my attitude among other things. It's important to me to keep trying to follow Christ's example of not being like the above. I know I can't be perfect, but that's no excuse for me to not keep trying to improve.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 21, 2007, 05:43:33 AM
Quote
You're born with your race, but you choose a religion
What about Judaism? Race or religion?
Hint: Trick question. There's no such thing as race. :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 21, 2007, 09:04:03 AM
Ok, now I'm going to put you on the spot, since you know me(though you also know ones like DevX, so I can understand your feelings on the matter), am I an "unforgiving, rude, obnoxious, violent, self-important pig"? If I am, I'll deffinitly work on that, I'm always trying to work on my attitude among other things. It's important to me to keep trying to follow Christ's example of not being like the above. I know I can't be perfect, but that's no excuse for me to not keep trying to improve.
I don't know you in real life, only online, so I can't comment on that. If you are trying to follow Christ's example, then you wouldn't likely be any of the above, as according to the book, he wasn't like that at all. It seems that the vast majority of Christians don't even know the MEANING of "Christian"..."Christ-like". Seems like you know what it means to be Christian, unlike most. But of course, you don't need to be Christ-like to note your own shortcomings and try to work on them for the better.
Unfortunately, DevX doesn't need to be known in real life for said problems to be very well known. On a related note, take a look at this thread on Pixelation:
Virtually ALL of the "goblins" mentioned in this thread applied to DevX.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 21, 2007, 12:29:01 PM
I'll except that answer :D Reminds me of something I heard about Gandhi saying that if all Christians would live by Jesus teachings from the sermon on the mount, that the problems of the world would be solved. I don't know about all problems being solved, but this world would sure be alot better if most Christians acted like they claim to.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Black Tiger on October 21, 2007, 12:42:39 PM
I'll except that answer :D Reminds me of something I heard about Gandhi saying that if all Christians would live by Jesus teachings from the sermon on the mount, that the problems of the world would be solved. I don't know about all problems being solved, but this world would sure be alot better if most Christians acted like they claim to.
I like how many ignorant self proclaimed Christians(not to be confused with all the rest) like to use phrases like "its the Christian thing to do" when talking about doing something they think is good or "right", when its actually either un-Christian or not a very good thing at all. :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 21, 2007, 05:41:47 PM
Oh man, don't even get me started on how most modern-day Christians act! Here in Puerto Rico, a VERY Christian island, you would expect the vast majority of people to be decent, right? Nothing could be further from the truth. People here are generally deceitful, hate-filled bigots who would rather spit on you if you don't fit into their narrow vision of "faith". They're some of the worst drivers I've ever encountered as well, and let's not forget that Puerto Rico has the sixth highest murder rate in the world. Christ-like? Not in your life. They blame poverty and government corruption for the terrible society, and when that falls apart, they blame decadence. Excuses, excuses, excuses...
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 21, 2007, 06:18:55 PM
Somebody Photoshop Jesus Christ on a dollar and that's modern day Christianity for you.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 21, 2007, 06:29:32 PM
Ha ha no kidding, especially when you get into the evangelical territory. I can't believe people listen to the TV evangelists. Yes they are entertaining because you can point and laugh at them, but some people actually believe in what they are saying/doing.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 21, 2007, 06:29:58 PM
Oh man, don't even get me started on how most modern-day Christians act! Here in Puerto Rico, a VERY Christian island, you would expect the vast majority of people to be decent, right? Nothing could be further from the truth. People here are generally deceitful, hate-filled bigots who would rather spit on you if you don't fit into their narrow vision of "faith". They're some of the worst drivers I've ever encountered as well, and let's not forget that Puerto Rico has the sixth highest murder rate in the world. Christ-like? Not in your life. They blame poverty and government corruption for the terrible society, and when that falls apart, they blame decadence. Excuses, excuses, excuses...
Lets not forget they also toss hundreds of pets from a bridge for the sake of "pest control" on your wonderful quaint little island of the damned...awesome stuff for sure.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 21, 2007, 06:41:27 PM
Lets not forget they also toss hundreds of pets from a bridge for the sake of "pest control" on your wonderful quaint little island of the damned...awesome stuff for sure.
Wow, I can't believe that story actually made it to the mainland...it's pretty sick, isn't it?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 21, 2007, 06:49:46 PM
Yea I was pretty horrified over that. Only a few of the animals survived,with broken limbs and crap. If they can get away with it,I wont be surprised if some animal rights groups protest there. Wont be surprised if they jump all over that before long at all,at least media wise.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 21, 2007, 06:52:26 PM
You know if you think about it next they will prob toss their homeless from a bridge for the sake of controlling poverty there.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 21, 2007, 07:52:07 PM
Lets not forget they also toss hundreds of pets from a bridge for the sake of "pest control" on your wonderful quaint little island of the damned...awesome stuff for sure.
Wow, I can't believe that story actually made it to the mainland...it's pretty sick, isn't it?
That's absolutely the most horrible thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I'm literally sick to my stomach after reading that. If I drove over a bridge and saw someone doing that, I would get out of my car, beat the shit out of them and then throw them over the side of the bridge.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 22, 2007, 05:16:18 AM
Most religious people are indoctrinated into their religion, so it's not so simple as making a choice. Only one of strong mind can choose their religion. Because of that, you could realistically say that one is also born with their religion. And what you mention of the Christian lifestyle (which I've yet to see one actually do what you describe on a regular basis in real life, it's usually just the opposite...unforgiving, rude, obnoxious, violent, self-important pigs...but then again, people are generally this way regardless of their religion) is the same in virtually all religions.
You have a point, but at some point people make a decision whether or not they continue to remain religious, though admittedly few will venture beyond the religion with which they were raised. Your view of mankind is rather sad and narrow. I can't speak for those in Puerto Rico, but there are plenty of people here that are more or less good people (Christian and otherwise). They may not be perfect (who is?), but they're doing more good than evil. Undoubtedly, there are people that are just giving Christianity lip service, but that doesn't mean that it is universal.
You're born with your race, but you choose a religion
What about Judaism? Race or religion?
Hint: Trick question. There's no such thing as race. :P
race: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock; a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
We're all part of the human race, but the definition above is what is commonly used when most people, not anthropologists, speak of race (or ethnicity, if you prefer). Using this definition, Judaism could be considered both a race and a religion, but that doesn't mean that a member of one group is necessarily a member of the other. Anyone can convert to Judaism as a religion, regardless of ancestry; a person with Jewish ancestry may or may not be of Jewish faith.
Anyways, what's this about pets being dumped in the sea? I missed hearing about that, was it pretty recent?
AP Article (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jnVM28pujsusIu2PeX7-zhySk87AD8S81DO80)
It doesn't sound like a government sanctioned disposal method to me. A private company was paid to humanely remove pets from public housing and the greedy bastards decided to cut a few corners.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 22, 2007, 07:12:22 AM
Quote
race: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock; a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
So by that definition I could call Canadians a race? We share certain habits, characteristics. What about Newfoundlanders? All those Newfie jokes I've told....I'm a racist?!!! :o :wink: The Quebecois have just recently been declared a nation, so would they constitute a race? I'm not sure what that definition means by "stock". The point I was trying to make was that there are generally more differences within "stocks" than among.
It's just a word, but "race" seems to be used most often in a negative sense. i.e. "My race is better than yours." That definition of race closely resembles the definition of culture:
Culture' (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate,") generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activity significant importance. Different definitions of "culture" reflect different theoretical bases for understanding, or criteria for evaluating, human activity.
I would also disagree that Judaism could be considered a race. Jews spread out over Asia, Europe and Africa, and adopted local customs and traditions separate from the others.
I know we're talking about the same thing, but I just feel that the term "race" should be discarded. From my experience if people mean ethnicity, they say "ethnicity", if people mean race, they say "race".
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 10:03:40 AM
Sounds like horse shit to me. Men are not beasts that need such a crutch to keep from ravaging women on sight.
Necromancer, some of us really are beasts and really do need as much help as possible to control our appetites. If you have greater self control than that, then just by being that way you make the world a better place.
But I don't see the dress codes as being only about providing a crutch for weak willed men and women, but more for creating a culture of modesty, which I think helps prevent men and women from becoming weak willed in the first place.
Quote from: necromancer
You're born with your race, but you choose a religion, so having pride in one is not akin to having pride in the other. To be a Christian means to live a Christian lifestyle, which involves forgiveness, generosity, renunciation of violence, marital fidelity, and helping your fellow man. I can't see anything wrong with having pride in those qualities.
Is pride among the characteristics of a "Christian lifestyle"?
I think that glorification of God is ideal, not having pride in following God's instructions. Having pride in following God's instructions may hinder us in being willing to reach out and help our fellow man who may not be practicing God's instructions.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 10:33:05 AM
As already mentioned, the dress code isn't just applied to women and both sexes are advised to lower gazes and control themselves. Also from what I understand, the hijab actually originates in Judaism somehow, but I don't know much about the details.
Keranu, I found something in the New Testament about it, the head covering for women to be specific.
The Bible here presents it as a symbol of authority of men over women, which Necromancer spoke out against earlier.
verse 10 : For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
verse 3: But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
This goes back to what I said earlier about Elijah Muhammad teaching us that women are supposed to be subordinate to men, and men are supposed to be subordinate to God. Here the Bible inserts Christ as an intermediary between man and God, which we accept, since Christ represents a perfect example for us on how to submit to the Will of Allah.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 12:44:05 PM
Which is better, the Bible or the Quran? Which one is more correct? Which one is wrong? They both can't be right.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
Which is better, the Bible or the Quran? Which one is more correct? Which one is wrong? They both can't be right.
From a Muslim perspective, we put more faith in the Qur'An because it still holds the original Arabic language text.
Also, while it may be true that you can point to various verses in the Bible and Qur'An which seem to contradict each other, it is also true that you can find verses in the Bible and Qur'An that agree with each other.
Muslims are taught in the Qur'An that both the Torah (Teachings through Moses and other Prophets/Old Testament) and the Gospel (Teachings through Jesus/New Testament) were revealed by the same God who revealed the Qur'An.
Qur'An 5:44 (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation): Surely We revealed the Torah, having guidance and light...
Qur'An 5:46 (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation): And We sent after them in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, verifying that which was before him of the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light, and verifying that which was before it of the Torah...
Many disagreements between Jews, Christians, and Muslims come up out of mis-translations, deliberate alterations, and differing interpretations, Elijah Muhammad teaches us. However, I have spent some time talking with a Muslim sister from Egypt who believed that reading the Bible was a total waste of time. Followers of Elijah Muhammad don't share that belief.
The key to both books, really, is interpretation. Both contain a lot of symbolic language that has resulted in many divisions. If you were to take a look at the various schools of thought among just the Muslims, for example, I believe you will find that the differences arise based on interpretations of symbolic language in the Qur'An.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 22, 2007, 01:23:14 PM
Quote
Which is better, the Bible or the Quran?
That's another trick question. :P Is there a none of the above option?
Since we're quoting the 1st 2nd and 3rd editions of g-d's books I thought it would only be fair to quote some atheists. :P
Gene Roddenberry:
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."
Others:
"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." - Author Unknown
"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him." - Arthur C. Clarke
"Organized religion: The world's largest pyramid scheme." - Bernard Katz
"One might be asked "How can you prove that a god does not exist?" One can only reply that it is scarcely necessary to disprove what has never been proved." - David A. Spitz
"I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
"The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own." - Frank Zappa
"It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so." - Ernestine Rose
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." - Carl Sagan ----> I stuck that one in for you Keranu. :)
"God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?"
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca the Younger
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
"This is my religion . . . joy and exaltation in my own existence... so go ahead and snarl... bite... howl, you Calvinistic divines and all you who say I am no Christian. I say you are not Christian." - John Adams
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
"There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." - Richard Lederer
"If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses" - Lenny Bruce
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Power corrupts; Absolute power corrupts absolutely; God is all-powerful. Draw your own conclusions."
"Theists think all gods but theirs are false. Atheists simply don't make an exception for the last one."
"If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color." - Mark Schnitzius
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
"Man created God in his own image."
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
Seriously, rag-time4, are you a time traveller posting from the 10th Century? If so, I would like to borrow your time machine as long as it goes backwards in addition to going fowards.
I think Canadians are a race as they have their own distinct culture and everything! I wish I was a member of the Canadian race sometimes, but alas, as some people has said you can't change your race, oh well. I'm just glad I'm not a member of the Nebraska race.
If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.
Chairman Sheng-ji Yang "Looking God in the Eye"
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 01:48:50 PM
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." - Napoleon Bonaparte
This is one that I really used to believe in. As Karl Marx said, "religion is the opiate of the masses."
When I started listening to Malcolm X, and even Martin Luther King, Jr., I found this one to be disproven.
Religion can be useful in keeping the masses quiet, but it can also be useful in motivating people to speak up.
To be fair, Napoleon and Marx never had the chance to hear Louis Farrakhan speak 8)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 02:16:27 PM
Ofcoarse, out of all those quotes, the first one is obvious. From my understanding of the Bible, humans weren't created faulty, as they were perfect, but granted free will. They used this free will(along with Satan's influence) to disobey a simple commandment, not to eat the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden. They sinned of their own free will, sin came from Adam, & thus sin entered into the world. Satan also was perfect, but with his free will, decided that he wanted people to worship him, instead of God. And, after scheming, he went down as a serpent, & spoke to Eve, etc.
If Adam & Eve hadn't sinned, they'd still be on the earth, perfect, living forever in a paradise. Heck, if atleast Adam had chose to love God, more then his wife, & not sinned with her, Eve would've died for her sin, but Adam would've eventually gotten another wife, because he remained faithful, & would still be on this earth(this might be where the idea of Adam having 2 wives, 1 bad, 1 good, came from). But, there's a time coming, when the wicked are wiped from the earth, & it will become a paradise, & most faithful humans will live in this paradise forever on earth(144,000 will be up in heaven with Christ reigning as king's & priests). Plus, I figure, we'll eventually start venturing to other planets as well, but that's more of a personal theory.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 22, 2007, 02:35:39 PM
My theory is up there with the 144,000 your all going to find it a bit crowded and boring,then your going to erect a giant bridge and start tossing the unwanteds off back down to heavenly earth or whatever. Like Gods version of pest control,or amusement,which ever comes first. To do it hes going to go through a cheap sub contractor. I think god is going to think,"Wow,Puerto Rico on a large scale,awesome!".
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 02:35:50 PM
Seriously, God must be a f*cking dumbass if he expected humans not to eventually eat that apple. Seriously, as humans repopulated, one of them would have eventually done it. But no, the first two humans did it! When God created humans he said "And I shall make man a complete dumbass, like myself". Satan easily outsmarted God. If I believed in things like Satan, I'd give him more respect than I would give to God simply for this act alone. God = PWNT.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 02:37:07 PM
I am absolutely tired of Abrhamic relgious people using the flawed free will argument. This is debunked in any basic philosophy course.
1. According to your religion, God is omnipotent and has no power limitations 2. Since God is omnipotent, he can design humans so that when presented a choice, they always freely choose the good.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 02:53:36 PM
Therefore, they'd be robots in disguise :dance:
BTW, Romans 5:12 -just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 03:16:58 PM
Seriously, God must be a f*cking dumbass if he expected humans not to eventually eat that apple. Seriously, as humans repopulated, one of them would have eventually done it. But no, the first two humans did it! When God created humans he said "And I shall make man a complete dumbass, like myself". Satan easily outsmarted God. If I believed in things like Satan, I'd give him more respect than I would give to God simply for this act alone. God = PWNT.
LOL You make a lot of sense, but who says that God didn't expect Adam and Eve to eat the apple?
Also, we don't share the belief that Adam and Eve of the Bible were the first two humans.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 22, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
BTW, Romans 5:12 -just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Interesting scripture! This seems to support the idea of "spiritual death" I mentioned earlier.
ParanoiaD, thanks for your comments on 1914, by the way. I've been meaning to reply.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: GUTS on October 22, 2007, 03:46:49 PM
This thread is absolutely f*cking retarded.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nat on October 22, 2007, 04:15:10 PM
I see this kind thread at every message board i've been too.
Afther a while...ya don't care since it's been talked about a millon times all ready :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: TRON
It is and i wounder why it hasn't died yet.
Because people are crazy about their religious beliefs. If I say that God and Jesus have un-lubed anal sex with each other, someone else needs to try and tell me that they don't.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 22, 2007, 05:34:38 PM
Quote
If I say that God and Jesus have un-lubed anal sex with each other
Do they? :shock:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 22, 2007, 06:00:49 PM
Yea this thread is boring and lost it merits long ago.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 06:03:13 PM
I think what it all boils down to is that discussion of religion almost always causes animosity and bad feelings between people. You can't expect anything more than that unless everyone participating has the exact same set of ridiculous beliefs. Same goes with politics. Why isn't there a politics thread?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 22, 2007, 06:42:06 PM
To those who are bored of this thread: why in the hell do you continue to read it? Just looking for a reason to bitch, I suppose.
Necromancer, some of us really are beasts and really do need as much help as possible to control our appetites. If you have greater self control than that, then just by being that way you make the world a better place.
But I don't see the dress codes as being only about providing a crutch for weak willed men and women, but more for creating a culture of modesty, which I think helps prevent men and women from becoming weak willed in the first place.
My original point was that it is a means to control women and nothing more. If it were truly intended to keep thoughts pure, then both men and women would have the same requirements (yes, men have a dress code, but it is nowhere near as concealing as women's).
Is pride among the characteristics of a "Christian lifestyle"?
I think that glorification of God is ideal, not having pride in following God's instructions. Having pride in following God's instructions may hinder us in being willing to reach out and help our fellow man who may not be practicing God's instructions.
You got me there, kind of. Pride is the worst of the seven deadly sins, but only when it is excessive and interferes with your thoughts and actions. My point was that having the qualities that define a 'Christian lifestyle' is something to be proud of, independent of religious code. It doesn't matter if the actions arise because of God's instructions, because mommy told you, or just because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
The Bible here presents it as a symbol of authority of men over women, which Necromancer spoke out against earlier.
verse 10 : For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
verse 3: But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
This goes back to what I said earlier about Elijah Muhammad teaching us that women are supposed to be subordinate to men, and men are supposed to be subordinate to God. Here the Bible inserts Christ as an intermediary between man and God, which we accept, since Christ represents a perfect example for us on how to submit to the Will of Allah.
Interesting example of how to interpret something to hear just what you want to hear. Perhaps you should read a few more verses:
11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
I interpret the earlier verses to allude to the creation of man in God's image and the creation of woman from man's rib. In light of verses 11 and 12, how does it all imply that women are subordinate to man?
I am absolutely tired of Abrhamic relgious people using the flawed free will argument. This is debunked in any basic philosophy course.
1. According to your religion, God is omnipotent and has no power limitations 2. Since God is omnipotent, he can design humans so that when presented a choice, they always freely choose the good.
That's specious reasoning. You argue that an omnipotent God is unable to choose to make a flawed being. A being incapable of making the incorrect choice would obviously not have free will.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 06:47:58 PM
That's specious reasoning. You argue that an omnipotent God is unable to choose to make a flawed being. A being incapable of making the incorrect choice would obviously not have free will.
Oh no, you saw through my argument. :x
I knew I shouldn't have listened to Dick Pole on this matter!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Turbo D on October 22, 2007, 06:57:27 PM
don't feel bad man, I listen to my dick all the time too :wink:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 07:11:43 PM
Dick's my friend! He's just not good at philosophy. [-(
Which is better, the Bible or the Quran? Which one is more correct? Which one is wrong? They both can't be right.
I recommend watching the infamous debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Ahmed Deedat. I think every Muslim got a good laugh at Swaggart's bullshit story at the end :lol: .
Quote from: ceti_alpha
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." - Carl Sagan ----> I stuck that one in for you Keranu. :)
Thanks for the quote :D ! Actually I'm aware of this quote already.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Pcenginefx on October 22, 2007, 07:55:53 PM
Well, I for one was just waiting for the thread to get out of control before I locked it up but we should be able to talk about religion in a civilized manner....
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 08:01:00 PM
BTW, Romans 5:12 -just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Interesting scripture! This seems to support the idea of "spiritual death" I mentioned earlier.
ParanoiaD, thanks for your comments on 1914, by the way. I've been meaning to reply.
I personally believe it refers to a physical death. I believe we are all sinners, since we all fall to temptation, & make mistakes. And I believe, that when we die, we basically go to sleep(sheol/hades/hell/the common grave of mankind), rather then having a spiritual soul that goes to heaven, or a firey hell(which became Christian doctrine somewhere around the 3rd Century AD). For instance, Ecclesiastes 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” Ecclesiastes 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” Ezekial 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Even animals are called "lving souls"
At Genesis 2:7 it says "the man came to be a living soul" rather then saying he was given a soul. I believe however, that after Armageddon, people that died, that only went to the "grave", will be resurrected to everlasting life on a paradise earth.
Oh, & back to temptation, & Adam & Eve sinning. They were perfect when they sinned, which means they would have to sin on purpose. They clearly chose to sin. I've never been perfect, as like everyone else, am a sinner. So, for me to sin, is a competely different story on it's own. Jesus, was born perfect, & never sinned, but, saw what it was like, to have temptations, especially when Satan offered him all the nations of the world, if Jesus would do an act of obeisance to him, because Satan has complete control over the nations of the world. But he resisted, unlike Adam & Eve. And eventually, he was killed as a perfect man, as a sacrifice, to give us a chance to get back what Adam & Eve had screwed up.
Also, I should mention, I hold no ill feelings toward anyone here, we all have our own beliefs, & that's just life. But, I've always wondered why people who don't believe in God, seem to get mad(correct me if I'm wrong), just because someone else does believe in God? It's one thing to state what you believe, but it's another to put other's down for their beliefs. Can't we all just........get along? :D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 22, 2007, 08:05:32 PM
Well, I for one was just waiting for the thread to get out of control before I locked it up but we should be able to talk about religion in a civilized manner....
IS THAT A CHALLENGE!? :twisted:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 08:06:22 PM
Also, I should mention, I hold no ill feelings toward anyone here, we all have our own beliefs, & that's just life. But, I've always wondered why people who don't believe in God, seem to get mad(correct me if I'm wrong), just because someone else does believe in God?
I, for one, am tired of people trying to convert me to their religion. I don't mention my religious beliefs at all, but some jerk always comes along and yells how great their religion is in my face constantly. After years of that, yeah, you tend to get bitter towards religion.
Also, I find it hilarious that religious people have a persecution complex when they are in a supermajority my country. You evil atheists are oppressing us, despite the fact that 90+% of people believe in god! :-({|=
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 08:11:19 PM
I'm not trying to convert anybody. People convert themselves to whatever they want in life, as always, we have free will. And I'm obviously talking abou threads, & how, atleast I try to remain on a, mmm, not sure what to call it, but, let's say neutral stance. I'm not saying my religion is the greatest, I'm only saying what I believe. But, it always seems like Atheists tend to put me down, just for my beliefs. If I was putting them down, then I would expect the same back, but I don't put Atheists down. I could even do an example of how I would sit here & say blah blah blah, Atheists, ha ha ha, blah blah. What would be the point? :-({|=
BTW, who said anything about Atheists being evil? That's far from the truth. Being Atheist doesn't make anyone evil. Atleast, that's what I believe.
Also, if you have people yelling at you about how great their religion is, then yes, I can deffinitly understand why someone would be bitter. There are a few Christian religions that tend to get........over zealous, about us being wrong, & them being right. It's annoying, so, I deffintly understand.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 22, 2007, 08:17:10 PM
I sincerely honestly believe that you are all idiots.
:P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 22, 2007, 08:18:26 PM
I'm not talkin' about anyone in particular, especially here since you guys are generally cool about such things.
Except for rag-time4, who is a complete jerk. I don't care about religion as long as you don't use it to declare your superiority over another group, who happen to be 51% of the population.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 08:19:35 PM
I have yet to see anyone in this thread, that I think is an idiot, whether it be me, or you. It's all good. 8)
Cool, glad I'm not offending. I sometimes worry that I am :?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kitsunexus on October 22, 2007, 08:31:17 PM
I have yet to see anyone in this thread, that I think is an idiot, whether it be me, or you. It's all good. 8)
FOR IDIOTS.
OK, I'm done spamming the thread.
Seriously. :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 09:06:53 PM
Quote
Oh, & back to temptation, & Adam & Eve sinning. They were perfect when they sinned, which means they would have to sin on purpose.
We all sin on purpose. Who sins on accident? Can you imagine trying to tell that to the police? "LOL, officer. It was an accident that I stole this car. I thought it was mine!!!1!!" Then the officer would reply "OMG u r soooo rite! LOLOLOLOL!!!!!1!!"
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 22, 2007, 09:27:08 PM
Uh, I don't sin on purpose. If I ran out on my wife, I can pretty much guarentee that would be on purpose, cuz I'd have to force myself to do it. But, when I look at another woman, I'm not doing it on purpsose, it's just imperfection kicking in, & it's something I fight. If I don't fight, I keep looking, which can lead to me leaving my wife to go park the car in somebody else's garage.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 22, 2007, 11:17:44 PM
Looking at another chick isn't a sin. It's as natural as breathing! Just because one looks doesn't mean there is the slightest possibility you'd try to cheat on her, right? Right?? Nobody sins on accident.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 23, 2007, 02:11:03 AM
If I ran out on my wife, I can pretty much guarentee that would be on purpose, If I don't fight, I keep looking, which can lead to me leaving my wife to go park the car in somebody else's garage.
Sounds like you have been thinking it over for awhile now ehh [-X So is that how you refer to having sex,"parking your car" in "somebodies garage" ?
If so thats really corny.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Pcenginefx on October 23, 2007, 05:27:21 AM
You know, we should have a sex thread. <hint hint>
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 23, 2007, 06:37:22 AM
If someone looks at a woman so as to have a passion for her, he has already commited adultary with her, in his heart. Looking at other women is a great weakness for me(frankly, it has been since I was a little kid, but, now that I'm married, it's just plain annoying), checking a girl out, when you're married is a sin. I used this as an example. Believe me, when I say I love my wife more then life itself! But, women are friggin' beautiful! I've been getting better & better at not even checking a girl out. Now I'm pretty much to the point, to where I don't care what a girl looks like. Either way, I told you, like everyone else, I'm a sinner, it's inherited.
The parking in the garage thing, was just an attempt of me trying to make things a little lighter here. That's not what I call it. It was the only thing I could think of at the time, to say having sex in a lighter way. I just call it sex.
Someone who steals a car, is sinning on purpose, they purposely stole that car. Perfect beings have a simple Yes/No about doing what's wrong/right. Imperfect beings, however, it's not so simple. We actually struggle with various things in life, that are considered sins. Some sins are obviously worse then others. But, I believe, of what I call sin, we sin everyday. As I said, it's inherited. Thru one man, sin entered the world, & death thru sin.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 23, 2007, 09:08:50 AM
If someone looks at a woman so as to have a passion for her, he has already commited adultary with her, in his heart.
But, eatin' ain't cheatin'! * :dance:
* If it's good enough for the President, then it's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 23, 2007, 11:07:54 AM
But, it can lead to that. Why get close to doing something bad, since, it starts with the thought of cheating, & progresses from there.
I should also mention, I think I might have a harder time with it possibly because of my OCD. Not only do I check my locks & doorknobs a million times before I leave, but I also get things stuck in my head. I just came from Trader Joe's on the way home from work, & there was quite a hot lady, that may or may not been checking me out. But I kept telling myself to shut up, & to stop thinking. Even while driving home, she kept creeping into my mind, & it pisses me off. I get so sick of when I fall like that. My wife knows that I'm struggling with looking at other women, so, it's no secret. But, something I've been using lately, to get myself to stop, is to think of myself being smacked for looking at a chick. And it works better then anything so far. However, some days are worse then others, including with my door locking problem. If I'm tired, it's worse, I have to fight even harder to battle these imperfections, it's very frusterating, but, as I said, lately, it's getting alot easier to fight, since my new tactic, it wakes me up.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 23, 2007, 11:20:00 AM
You misunderstood my post P.D. The eatin' that I was talking about didn't involve food; it was my own feeble effort at a little levity.
I fully understand where you're coming from. The women I've known that would get pissed due to my wandering eye far outnumbered those that were cool with it. Personally, I don't worry about a casual peek, but what you describe would bother me as it does you.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 23, 2007, 11:37:52 AM
I guess I wasn't totally sure what you mean. But, yeah, noticing a girl is hot, is one thing, but, to continue to look, or dwell on those thoughts, mentally undressing her, etc., that's where the real fight comes in, cuz I feel if I don't fight those thoughts, it will gradually lead me closer to do what is bad in God's eyes.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 23, 2007, 12:00:28 PM
Would the big, bad G-man send you to hell for looking at some other bitch and thinking "God DAMN I'd like to pork that! Oh well" and then just walking on? If he did, then that god is pure evil. Thanks for totally turning me away from your religion. I was going to join and go annoy my neighborhood by ringing their doorbells while they eat and tell them stuff they don't want to hear, but now I'm not going to because I don't want to serve your evil, jealous god. I hate your god. He can go to hell. What a loser. I beat I could him in an arm-wrestling match, too.
Quote from: pcenginefx
You know, we should have a sex thread. <hint hint>
You just want to brag about all of your threesomes!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 23, 2007, 12:51:07 PM
Nah, I wouldn't go to a fiery burning place called Hell. God may destroy people who end up being evil, but, that's only unconsiousness, a sleep. All people who die go to hell/sheol/hades/the grave, with the exception of the 144,000 who go to heaven, & the ones that have sinned against the holy spirit, like the Pharisee's, & Judas, will go to Gehenna(which basically means eternal destruction/no chance of ressurection). So, for me, no matter what I do, if I die before Armageddon, I'm going to hell, & I'm fine with that, because as I stated earlier "there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going".
Then, after Armageddon, I'll hopefully be resurected to perfection in everlasting life. And if not, well, I won't bother me, because if I'm dead I won't be sitting there going "Aw, come on! Resurect me already!". It's like if say, my mom didn't get pregnant with me, maybe they used protection, would I be sitting somehwere going, "Aw, come on! I want to be a living breathing bouncing baby boy!"? I don't believe I would. Thankfully, I believe God truly is love, otherwise, wicked people would be tormented in a fiery burning hell. But I personally believe no such thing. Even with the wicked that are destroyed at Armageddon, they won't be tormented in Gehenna, they will just be destroyed, & that's it.
And it's pretty damn hard to go door to door, seeing if people have an interest in learning about the Bible, epecially for me, but I follow Christ's words where he says at Mathew 28:19 & 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” That's a command, & I fight to obey it, despite how hard it is to do. I'm a shy person in person, & ofcoarse, most people aren't comfortable just going up to people door's to find interest in the Bible. There are JW's in foreign countries, where it's banned to preach, like in China, but they do it anyways, even if it's more in secret, at the risk of being arrested. Even in lands in the Middle East, we go & preach, under the radar, at risk of being killed. It's that important. You don't have to believe me, & I don't expect you to. But, we all have choices to make in life, & this has been my choice, despite that I feel I'm a weak willed person, I feel it's the truth, & I'm determined to never back down, believe it(as Naruto would say)! :D
Hmm, that's a really cool thing, about God NOT making us robots, but yet, doing what we feel is the correct thing to do, no matter how hard it is, I feel that I have the truth, & that I'm on the correct path. Is it easy, not even. Mathew 7:13 & 14 "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."
I hope that at the very least, you can respect me for trying to do what I feel is the righteous thing in my life. Even though I don't know you personally, I don't think you are an evil person. There's no reason for me to think that. I believe, that whatever you are doing in life, you believe to be the corret path, & I respect you for that.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 23, 2007, 04:52:30 PM
Would the big, bad G-man send you to hell for looking at some other bitch and thinking "God DAMN I'd like to pork that! Oh well" and then just walking on? If he did, then that god is pure evil.
He could send you the hell or he could not, that's all his decision and it's not for us to judge. God is most merciful so even if you sinned thousands of times, he never hesitates to forgive if you mean it. If you believe in that, then what other person or thing could possibly be more forgiving? Evil doesn't forgive.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 23, 2007, 06:28:07 PM
Quote from: Keranu
He could send you the hell or he could not, that's all his decision and it's not for us to judge.
Well I'm judging! Let's see him try to stop me. No? OK. I win.
Quote from: Keranu
God is most merciful so even if you sinned thousands of times, he never hesitates to forgive if you mean it.
Rock on, a free pass to do anything I want and still get the good seats after I die!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 23, 2007, 07:47:31 PM
My original point was that it is a means to control women and nothing more. If it were truly intended to keep thoughts pure, then both men and women would have the same requirements (yes, men have a dress code, but it is nowhere near as concealing as women's).
What if men and women's "weaknesses" or needs are not the same? Maybe what works well for one may not work well for the other?
But I certainly understand where you're coming from. If there were no subjugation involved and it were only about keeping thoughts pure, why shouldn't things be equal? Right?
What if men's and women's natures are a bit different?
Quote from: necromancer
You got me there, kind of. Pride is the worst of the seven deadly sins, but only when it is excessive and interferes with your thoughts and actions. My point was that having the qualities that define a 'Christian lifestyle' is something to be proud of, independent of religious code. It doesn't matter if the actions arise because of God's instructions, because mommy told you, or just because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
The Bible here presents it as a symbol of authority of men over women, which Necromancer spoke out against earlier.
verse 10 : For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
verse 3: But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
This goes back to what I said earlier about Elijah Muhammad teaching us that women are supposed to be subordinate to men, and men are supposed to be subordinate to God. Here the Bible inserts Christ as an intermediary between man and God, which we accept, since Christ represents a perfect example for us on how to submit to the Will of Allah.
Interesting example of how to interpret something to hear just what you want to hear. Perhaps you should read a few more verses:
11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
I interpret the earlier verses to allude to the creation of man in God's image and the creation of woman from man's rib. In light of verses 11 and 12, how does it all imply that women are subordinate to man?[/QUOTE]
The head is the house of the mind, which controls the body, in God's ideal order of things.
When people submit to their lower desires, as with excessive sexual desire, God's order may be upset. God wants us, I believe, to condition ourselves so that our mind is dominant over our lower desires.
Verse 3, I believe, gives us God's order. Jesus, as I said above, represents to us a perfect example of oneness with God. For the rest of us, who aren't at Jesus' level, Jesus is "the way" for us to attain that Godly Mind.
The woman, in turn, gets the Godly mind through her man, who is following in the footsteps of Christ.
The chapter that you are quoting, I Corinthians 11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011%20;&version=50;) is very explicit about women being subordinate to men in God's order.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
I don't see it being implied that women are to be subordinate to men in God's order. It seems very clear.
You quoted verses 11 and 12: 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
I interpret these verses, in part, as an explaination of God's order as it relates to men and women, and also a limitation and instruction on how to maintain God's order.
To give a concise (as I can) explanation: Christ cannot attain the mind of God without a woman, nor can man attain the mind of Christ without a woman. Woman cannot attain the mind of Christ without a man.
Men and women are not complete by themselves, we are taught. Rather, men and women are two different representations of the same original Essense, which is God. Islam, as taught by Elijah Muhammad, does not condone celibacy.
The Qur'An gives us some instruction on the relationship between men and women as well.
Qur'An 7:189 (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation): He it is Who created you from a single soul, and of the same did He make his mate, that he might find comfort in her...
Qur'An 4:34 (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation): Men are the maintainers of women...
I cite these to show the meaning of the Bible's statement that men and women are not independent of one another, in the Lord. Men and women have spiritual responsibilites to one another, we believe, and the fulfilling of these responsibilities is a key to unlocking the Godly mind within each and every one of us.
I want to say to everyone that none of my posts are intended to put anyone else down. Necromancer has asked me a question or questions and I'm doing my best to answer as best I can. :pray:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 23, 2007, 08:11:53 PM
Well, I for one was just waiting for the thread to get out of control before I locked it up but we should be able to talk about religion in a civilized manner....
Thank you for giving us the opportunity!
It's been very interesting to get to know each other a little better, which is what the thread was about in the first place.
Through this thread, I found out Keranu was also a Muslim, and he sent me a PM with a link to a site that let me find a couple Mosques and a Halal [kosher] market in my town, which I probably wouldn't have found on my own. (thanks keranu)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 23, 2007, 10:09:10 PM
He could send you the hell or he could not, that's all his decision and it's not for us to judge.
Well I'm judging! Let's see him try to stop me. No? OK. I win.
This isn't the day of judgement.
Quote from: Keranu
God is most merciful so even if you sinned thousands of times, he never hesitates to forgive if you mean it.
Rock on, a free pass to do anything I want and still get the good seats after I die! [/quote] LOL. Forgiveness is more than just a word.
Quote from: ragtime
Through this thread, I found out Keranu was also a Muslim, and he sent me a PM with a link to a site that let me find a couple Mosques and a Halal [kosher] market in my town, which I probably wouldn't have found on my own. (thanks keranu)
Any time!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 24, 2007, 05:53:45 AM
Seriously Joe,it does seem like your kinda pissed that someone else is believing in something you don't. You shouldn't be so bothered by it. Besides,what really matters more then anything is that if what the person is doing only brings about a positive effect then there is no harm done really,esp if it is having a positive impact on their life and self being. I don't understand why someone chooses to believe in any religion,whether they are bred into it or by choice as a adult,but it doesn't matter to me.
My ex-inlaws are JW,and I totally respect that,and we get along fine. I don't understand the exclusive 144,000 thing,honestly,and I wouldn't like that much,but if a person who follows this belief or any other is perfectly fine with that then why should anyone else care? Not just that,but like PD for instance,PD is cool,he never bothers anyone,and is one of the nicest members here,and even though I was hassling him a tad,its because I would more or less hassle anyone here :P.I like him alot along with other members here,regardless of what ever religion,and Id never say something like some of the stuff you said,like God and Jesus having sex.
You were doing that specifically to piss people off who would be offended by that...very inconsiderate and very negative. I even found it offensive. People get too up riled over religion,and everyone wants to be right,or their specific religion to be right. Its human nature to poke fun,esp in things you don't believe in,or to poke fun at others and their religions and personal beliefs ,but you should at least have a limit to it,and in some manner keep it friendly as possible,and not make it completely vulgar.
Thats a quick way to lose friends and respect here among everyone.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 24, 2007, 07:41:47 AM
...and Id never say something like some of the stuff you said,like God and Jesus having sex.
You were doing that specifically to piss people off who would be offended by that...very inconsiderate and very negative. I even found it offensive. People get too up riled over religion,and everyone wants to be right,or their specific religion to be right. Its human nature to poke fun,esp in things you don't believe in,or to poke fun at others and their religions and personal beliefs ,but you should at least have a limit to it,and in some manner keep it friendly as possible,and not make it completely vulgar.
Thats a quick way to lose friends and respect here among everyone.
I've concluded... the Sega Genesis is the root of all evil!
As one of the more religious folks who has been participating in the thread, I took Joe's comments as a test of our tolerance.
Are we going to jump all over him for it, and "kill the heretic"? My faith is all about the Messenger giving us a warning, and then God coming in and judging us for what we do.
I find it very interesting that the most passionate debates here seem to be religious and non-religious, rather than among the various religions represented.
I didn't come into the thread with the idea of trying to spread the interpretations of various religious texts that I have been taught, but a few others have asked some interesting questions (Joe included) so I have tried to answer as best I could.
But I totally understand that those who are non-religious might feel threatened or irritated by a lot of what I had to say.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 24, 2007, 08:13:03 AM
Quote
I've concluded... the Sega Genesis is the root of all evil!
You've only just figured this out now?! :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 24, 2007, 08:48:28 AM
Well,I am pretty much on par as with Joe in my beliefs,but I still draw lines as to playing around and poking fun and being completely vulgar.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 24, 2007, 09:23:19 AM
I'll take Joe's light-hearted vulgarity to being proclaimed an idiot any day.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 24, 2007, 09:38:00 AM
....yeah, this thread was bound to end up this way.... :|
...soooooo.....how 'bout those Patriots? :-"
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 24, 2007, 09:45:21 AM
....yeah, this thread was bound to end up this way.... :|
...soooooo.....how 'bout those Patriots? :-"
Randy Moss is looking like Randy Moss again, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 24, 2007, 12:06:09 PM
Michael, you always take things so seriously. Remember when you thought my Gate of Thunder covers were real? Lighten up.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 24, 2007, 12:36:10 PM
I think we all have to ask ourselves one important question....
...what would Jesus do?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 24, 2007, 12:54:53 PM
LOL :)
You mean "what do you think Jesus would do?" We honestly don't know what he'd do in a given situation, we can only assume. And who are we to speak for him?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 24, 2007, 01:09:07 PM
I recommend watching the infamous "Is The Bible God's Words?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDi-1CPmwE) debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Ahmed Deedat. I think every Muslim got a good laugh at Swaggart's bullshit story at the end :lol: .
Keranu, thanks for posting this video. I'm just wrapping it up. I actually heard about it years ago but never took the time to watch it until now.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on October 24, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
Quote
...soooooo.....how 'bout those Patriots?
I hope the Colts can manage to beat the Patriots. The Pats are WAY too good, and I hate that.
Super bowl predictions?
AFC Colts Vs. NFC Packers
Anyone else?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 24, 2007, 02:58:37 PM
I always root for the Denver Broncos, though it may be a lost cause this year.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 24, 2007, 03:13:19 PM
Quote
The Pats are WAY too good, and I hate that.
I know what you mean. It's like they shouldn't even be allowed in the NFL. hehe
I've actually only gotten into Football, aside from a little college ball (Go Huskies!!!), just this past year. Everyone I work with loves it so I'm always hearing about it and watching games with them. I used to think it was boring, but I'm starting to come around now. :)
I remember my first taste of how Americans love their football a couple years ago while stopping off in Portland, Maine for a couple days on my way to driving to NYC for vacation. The bars were packed on a Sunday and Monday night with people watching football. Pretty much the same here, but with hockey. :wink: It was cool though because I knew then I was in the USA. heh 8)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 24, 2007, 03:14:12 PM
I recommend watching the infamous "Is The Bible God's Words?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDi-1CPmwE) debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Ahmed Deedat. I think every Muslim got a good laugh at Swaggart's bullshit story at the end :lol: .
Keranu, thanks for posting this video. I'm just wrapping it up. I actually heard about it years ago but never took the time to watch it until now.
According to Jimmy Swaggart, us Muslims pray in the name of our prophets :P .
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on October 24, 2007, 03:21:10 PM
Hey Joe, Packers @ Broncos <-Monday Night Football!!
I bet my Packers beat up on your Little Pony's!!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 24, 2007, 03:30:43 PM
I recommend watching the infamous "Is The Bible God's Words?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDi-1CPmwE) debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Ahmed Deedat. I think every Muslim got a good laugh at Swaggart's bullshit story at the end :lol: .
Keranu, thanks for posting this video. I'm just wrapping it up. I actually heard about it years ago but never took the time to watch it until now.
According to Jimmy Swaggart, us Muslims pray in the name of our prophets :P .
Do you think that Swaggart said that out of ignorance or do you think his did it intentionally? I think it's too bad that brother Ahmed Deedat didn't make Swaggart's mistake clear, for the benefit of Swaggart's constituency.
One thing I thought was interesting was that at the end of part 10, there are photos of a couple Muslims shown, including brother Khallid Muhammad from the Nation of Islam. Any idea what that was all about?
I have a couple of brother Khallid's debates on VHS tape. He did one against pastor Chuck Singleton of loveland baptist church on the same topic (is bible the unaltered word of God), and a very interesting panel discussion with 2 Jewish brothers on the meaning of "God's chosen people".
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 24, 2007, 03:39:41 PM
I think Swaggart completely made up that story. I doubt you could find one Muslim on the planet that would ever "pray in the name of Muhammad". Notice how Swaggart didn't even attempt to refute Deedat's final rebuttal and instead made up a story about how Jesus can save lives just to make his case look good. From what I recall, the debate ended after Deedat's story leaving Deedat no time to comment on it, but I'm sure he has pointed it out in other debates of his.
Sometimes famous religious people attend the debates and they are shown on the camera. I remember seeing Yusuf Islam in another Deedat debate against Anis Shorrosh.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 24, 2007, 03:54:45 PM
Quote from: turboStar
Hey Joe, Packers @ Broncos <-Monday Night Football!!
I bet my Packers beat up on your Little Pony's!!
I remember the Broncos handing it to the Packers in a certain Superbowl. Many tears fell in Packer-land.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on October 24, 2007, 04:17:03 PM
I think Swaggart completely made up that story. I doubt you could find one Muslim on the planet that would ever "pray in the name of Muhammad". Notice how Swaggart didn't even attempt to refute Deedat's final rebuttal and instead made up a story about how Jesus can save lives just to make his case look good. From what I recall, the debate ended after Deedat's story leaving Deedat no time to comment on it, but I'm sure he has pointed it out in other debates of his.
Sometimes famous religious people attend the debates and they are shown on the camera. I remember seeing Yusuf Islam in another Deedat debate against Anis Shorrosh.
I think in both cases (Muslim prayer and Jesus saving lives) Swaggart was using standard rhetoric to appeal to his own constituency.
Obviously, any Muslim knows that we don't pray in the name of Muhammad. As Brother Deedat said again and again: "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Most Gracious"(I think that was his translation)
But Swaggart's constituency may not know that. I think it may have been said above somewhere that Allah seals the hearts and ears of those whom he pleases... so what are the factors involved that would cause Swaggart's constituency to believe something that is an obvious lie/error? (Muslims pray in the name of Muhammad)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Keranu on October 24, 2007, 04:32:16 PM
But Swaggart's constituency may not know that. I think it may have been said above somewhere that Allah seals the hearts and ears of those whom he pleases... so what are the factors involved that would cause Swaggart's constituency to believe something that is an obvious lie/error? (Muslims pray in the name of Muhammad)
I think it's very possible that Swaggart wasn't aware that Muslims don't pray in the name of Muhammad (saw), but regardless I think he purposely made up the story anyways just to make him look good.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 24, 2007, 04:37:32 PM
Quote from: Keranu
Muhammad (saw)
I would personally appreciate it if they'd stop making those dumb Saw movies every 6 months. Do people really enjoy that crap?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on October 24, 2007, 05:11:29 PM
Quote
I would personally appreciate it if they'd stop making those dumb Saw movies every 6 months.
The Saw movies are just trying to catch up to the Mario Party games.
Quote
Many tears fell in Packer-land.
[-X
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: guyjin on October 24, 2007, 06:17:05 PM
I would personally appreciate it if they'd stop making those dumb Saw movies every 6 months. Do people really enjoy that crap?
they're trying to recreate the 80's horror flick feel, like friday the 13th. Like that series, they probably won't really hit their stride until #5 or 6.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Hobo Xiphas on October 24, 2007, 06:31:50 PM
they're trying to recreate the 80's horror flick feel, like friday the 13th. Like that series, they probably won't really hit their stride until #5 or 6.
Then perhaps I'm mistaken, because I took it as shitty art-house horror with buckets of gore.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Michael Helgeson on October 26, 2007, 02:34:23 AM
Ehh I thought the Saw stuff was ok,so far.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Necromancer on October 26, 2007, 02:55:15 AM
But if I can't beat JB Harold, the killer will go free and kill more people.
Fine by me. The more dead northsiders, the better! :twisted:
I never thought of the game this way; I guess it is another reason never to play it!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: travisahhs on March 08, 2010, 03:43:15 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and revive this old thread! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian, but I was born into a Baptist family. I left the denomination in 9th grade for the Episcopal Church across the street, and was quite an active youth there. Here in Texas, at least up until a couple of years ago, we were a very conservative Archdiocese. We were "Catholic-Lite" as some liked to call it.
I abandoned the Protestant sect for Eastern Orthodox Christianity back in 2006, though, I have become somewhat lapsed in the past year and a half due to some obligations with a now-late grandmother. I'm not a bible-thumper, and I absolutely cannot stand Evangelical Christianity.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on May 20, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
The only rapture I'm getting tomorrow is when I play Gate of Thunder.
haha. Right on.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 20, 2011, 11:25:52 AM
I can't wait for the interview with the rapture people on Sunday.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on May 20, 2011, 07:13:30 PM
A lot of shit is gonna hit the fan on Sunday... it's already started though... that one woman who tried to kill her two daughters and then herself to save them and herself from the Rapture... I hold Family Radio responsible for this kind of shit.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nectarsis on May 20, 2011, 07:25:34 PM
I hold Family Radio responsible for this kind of shit.
I hold the ignorant, and easily swayed gullible saps responsible for their own actions (novel approach these days I know).
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 20, 2011, 08:58:43 PM
Rover kind of has a point. Ever since I have been hearing about this rapture bullshit, one thing has always been in the back of my mind: suicide cult/pact. This is exactly the type of minds such a "prophecy" would attract.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on May 20, 2011, 11:47:32 PM
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Senshi on May 21, 2011, 02:50:21 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on May 21, 2011, 04:20:07 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 21, 2011, 05:09:33 AM
Jesus is a white dude who shaves his chest?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on May 21, 2011, 08:12:43 AM
I'm rapture-baiting.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on May 21, 2011, 10:25:36 AM
The whole "world ends today" thing, & "the rapture" thing are interesting, because, technically, neither is even in the Bible! Mathew 24:36, Jesus said no one knows the day, or the hour, not even him, only the Father knows when it'll hit, not to mention that Jesus said it'd come like a thief in the night. And in general said that people can only know that it's close by various signs of things that would increase dramatically, but there's no way for anyone to predict a day...or even a year(like say, the whole Mayan calender thing that people are obsessed with). And the rapture just doesn't even appear in the Bible. It's what I'd call an extra-Biblical thing. While there is a scripture that talks about certain one's being caught up in the clouds or something like that, it's not talking about any kind of so called rapture.
It's stuff like this(among many other things) that make other Christian's look nuts IMHO. ](*,)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: blueraven on May 21, 2011, 11:26:51 AM
I posted a sign on my front lawn:
RAPTURE PARKING: $3,000
Owners will be responsible for tow charges Post-Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: RR1980 on May 22, 2011, 03:09:40 PM
haha back when I used to have my store I would have this regular customer who was like a hippie type with long blonde hair (kinda like the teacher from Beavis and Butthead). The girls working for me would call him Jesus but I told them Jesus was jewish and he was from the middle east so he would probably look like Bin Laden more than anything! hehe
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 09, 2011, 06:36:34 AM
Don't forget guys, the all new Rapture is due on October 21st.
I would bet that nobody is going to believe it this time, but people will fall for anything.
I think I'll go get some LOLRAPTURE T-Shirts printed, ready for the occasion.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 09, 2011, 10:04:18 AM
No no no no! How many times do I have to tell this to people! The Rapture already happened, October 31st is the End Of The World(tm)! No predictions ever changed! We're in The End Of Days(tm) right now, the world officially ends* on October 21st!
*Subject to approval from invisible sky fairies.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 10, 2011, 01:24:53 PM
Ugh, I forgot about all of this, & it's happening on my birthday too!! Yipppeeee :roll: :D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 11, 2011, 05:59:58 AM
I don't teach my kids about illusory, magical things. Thus, no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, and no God.
^^^ No SpongeBob either?
So, in otherwords, you teach them that life came about magically by itself, instead of by magical beings that planned it all out? :D Kidding.
But seriously though, I was one of the few Christian kids growing up in school that was taught that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, The Great Pumpkin, & Uncle Sam aren't real, & I'm grateful for my parents raising me that way. It was always a pain as a yung'n(or a yout) to get flak for not believing in that stuff, but I honestly don't consider it healthy to teach kids that these things are real........& then you have to teach them later that *har har, we were kidding*! I'm no brain surgeon, but, I feel like that kind of behavior can have a really negative effect on a child growing up. Whether it's just plain confusing for them, or they end up with trust issue's, I believe it's damaging to the child & their relationship with their parents. :(
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 12, 2011, 05:26:37 PM
Actually, either way life seems to have magically come about by itself. On the creationist side, it is said that God has always existed. And that's it, no further explanation. God just magically came into existence.
Honestly, though, we can't explain the exact origins of everything at this point in time. Theories are changing and improving as we learn more. But just because we can't explain it 100% right here right now does not mean the answer MUST be God. The human need for everything to be completely explained kind of embraces that rationale.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: blueraven on October 12, 2011, 05:40:09 PM
Chili Dog's are pretty awesome. Why don't people believe in Chili Dogs?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 12, 2011, 06:02:33 PM
Actually, either way life seems to have magically come about by itself. On the creationist side, it is said that God has always existed. And that's it, no further explanation. God just magically came into existence.
Honestly, though, we can't explain the exact origins of everything at this point in time. Theories are changing and improving as we learn more. But just because we can't explain it 100% right here right now does not mean the answer MUST be God. The human need for everything to be completely explained kind of embraces that rationale.
Indeed. Though, I'm a lil' different in that, I believe in creation, but that it wasn't in 6 24 hour days. Each day could've been millions of years, maybe there's not even a set amount of time that a human would understand. Who knows. And I also believe the way the scripture starts out, that the earth & the universe in general were made before the 6 "creative days". I'm not sure, but I think creationists technically believe everything, including the earth was all put together in 6 24 hour days.
Actually, my personal theory is that God is a (for lack of a better term) a multi-chrono singularity. I'm sure that's probably phrased wrong, but, it sounds kinda cool. Basically, my theory about God is that he exists outside of time, since, according to creation stories, he was there before everything else, he would be there before time even started. And even then, I think about God existing unchanged & the same all thruout time, as well as outside it.
I'm not totally sure how to explain it. I came up with the idea when reading about some entities in the various Trasnformers universes. For instance, Unicron, Primus, & Alpha Trion are multiverse singularities. They each exist as the same exact being in every universe, rather then there being multiple versions of themselves, like there is with Optimus Prime & Megatron.
For God, I think that he's the same being in & out of time, & can access every time period anytime he wishes due to this. You & I are slightly different now, then we were 1 minute ago, & 1 minute from now, we'll be different(due to age, acquired knowledge, injury, etc). We are constantly changing, but if God exists, maybe he is existing not only in the present, but also does exist(rather then did) in the past, & does exist(rather then will) in the future.
It's just something I've pondered about, & I'm almost sure the multi-chrono singularity phrase is inaccurate, but, it's the best way I could think of to describe my theory. Plus, some people God is 3 persons in one, so if he exists, for them it'd be a multi-chrono trinity I suppose. :D
Anyways, I deffinitly believe in chilli dogs, no doubt, but, I try not to enjoy their gloriousness too often, for I fear they will one day kill me, but good grief, chilli dogs rule!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: MotherGunner on October 12, 2011, 06:05:49 PM
PD that was a good read man. Now knock out 50 push-ups for being so damn enlightened! =)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 12, 2011, 07:02:03 PM
That's a pretty cool theory, PD. Of course some religious folks would go apeshit if they heard that. And along those same lines, I don't understand what God or lack thereof has to do with evolution. Many religious folk believe in the Adam and Eve story literally. I don't think the Bible was meant to be interpreted literally (at least I sure as hell hope not). What if evolution was just part of "God's plan"? I don't see why it couldn't be... that is if there was/is a god.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: MotherGunner on October 12, 2011, 07:10:02 PM
Joe I agree. I am a Catholic Christian myself and trust me when I say not all Catholics think literally. You can't when given the evidence such as the theories of evolution Darwin wrote about. Most Catholics don't even read their Bible anymore in part due to this.
These days I am still religious but I have lost faith in "organized religion" itself.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 13, 2011, 08:39:04 AM
Despite being a complete douche, even the Pope accepts evolution while crazy creationists desperately try to use pseudoscience to debunk it. It's quite amusing watching religion constantly backpedal in the face of hard evidence. The sooner children are taught it as literature and not fact, the better.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on October 25, 2011, 11:33:09 AM
Believing in a god doesn't answer any questions. I don't begrudge people for believing it, but I don't see what people get from that belief. It's fairly...wait...it's completely obvious that God didn't create the Earth or has some special relationship with humans. So, if you believe that god created the universe and then went off to play in the sandbox with Odin, Apollo and Zeus, where does that get you? It's basically a featherbed for your disbelief in religion, i.e. Christianity/Judaism/Islam. In fact, it answers nothing and raises a whole slew of questions.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 25, 2011, 11:58:28 AM
While I generally agree (atheist here), I know why many people are religious and why it appeals to them. Most religious people are fools (hell, probably most atheists, too). But there are some that are genuinely good people and may even be better because of their beliefs. I know that sounds odd coming from an atheist, but it does work for some people.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 25, 2011, 09:05:08 PM
I can understand what people get from belief - They get a sense of community and comfort in thinking that some magic sky-man is always watching out for them. They can feel when things go wrong that it is part of a plan which is out of their control. It's a coping mechanism for fear of death and the easy way out to explain things that you are too lazy to bother to try and understand. There are people that are better because of their beliefs. There are also people that are worse. But none of that makes it fact, and the one thing that many religious people share is an unwillingness to accept fact when it conflicts with their 'truth'.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Starfighter on October 27, 2011, 08:26:04 AM
People can believe what ever they want as long as they don't expect anyone else to follow their rules.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 27, 2011, 01:58:37 PM
I deffinitly don't believe the Bible is totally litteral, there's just no way IMO. There's alot of poetic & figurative language involved. For instance, there's alot of mythical type "beasts" thruout the Bible. I don't believe a single one of them is real. Some of them(I think in Daniel) are clearly labled as representing certain kingdoms, such as Babylon, Rome & Greece. Other's you have to figure out what they represent based on their attributes & features. Also, seems like alot of people believe the so called Anti Christ is real. One lady I do work for believe that "he" is a human son of the Devil & is walking the earth, causing problems whereever "he" goes. If that's what she wants to believe, that's up to her, but, I believe the Anti Christ is figurative along with other things, like Gehenna/the lake of fire. I believe that is symbolic of destruction, not torture or whatever.
I think that if God exists, alot of the miracles in the bible, are God using natural laws. For instance, I believe it says that God caused ridiculously strong winds to hold up the Red Sea, rather then him just, making it stand up with no explanation whatsoever. I believe most of the 10 plague's were also stated as being stuff like God causing something to effect something else....rather then just....it happened, if that makes any sense? Another example, is when the Israelites wanted more food to eat, & I think it says God caused an east wind to bring quail into the camp of Israel, rather then just...quail appeared magically before them.
I agree, that atleast for some, it's a coping mechanisim. They want to think that everythings going to be alright in the end, & that they'll go to heaven, & boo-yah, life is sweet! I don't feel like that's why I believe in creation. A being of some kind as I described above(multi-chrono singularity or maybe it's omin-chrono?) is what seems most logical to me. And I find that logic differ's from person to person, so what I believe, isn't always going to be logical to the next person. And yeah, there's deffinitly the sense of community. I think there are deffinitly people that are worse with religion, as, there's been so much done in the name of God or god's that has hurt people over the centuries.
There's alot of people that use it as an excuse to hurt or take advantage of people. TV evangelists are that first that come to mind, but also cult's. There are so many little grouple that believe in some human leader that will lead them to so called salvation, but I believe most, if not all of those leaders are just taking advantage of the people, & in alot of case(if not all) are living off the fat of the land that their followers provide for them! :evil: It's hard to have faith in any kind of organized religion thanks to all those bastards that have led people like sheep to the slaughter. However, it does sound to me that the first century Christians were an organized group, based on there congregating together & the preaching work as well.
Personally, I've always been more of a rebel & underdog type person(probably the reason I was a TG man rather then SNES or Genesis). I tend to hate fads & trends & popular opinion. I try to think more about what I'm into or getting into, rather then just going along with the crowd. I try to reason on things, rather then just taking a blind leap of faith like alot of Christians to do.
I was raised around both creation & evolution, & while I deffinitly believe in creation, you could say I partially believe in evolution. All creatures deffinitly evolve & adapt & make new kinds of the same creature, there's just no way I can believe that every type of each creature had to be created. This is why we not only have so many different types of dogs, birds, & cats, but also humans. Who knows what type of races of humans we'll have in another couple of years. However, I do personally believe that with each generation, we are gradually dying, & that our dna is corrupted, & if not for modern science as well as just plain cleanliness, our life spans would be shorter then they generally are in comparison to hundreds of years ago, when you could be 35 & an old man!
I don't believe that everything came from nothing however, & I believe there is a limit or plateu to evolution, & that everything stays within this limit. I believe it's possible that we don't actually have vestigial organs, but that the one's that are considered vestigial(I think most people accept that the appendix is linked to the immune system IIRC?), are either just not understood yet, or are even faulty. As I said, I believe that to some degree we are degrading, rather then upgrading. And unlike alot of people, I don't believe we'll eventually evolve into pure light.
I think the story of the flood is a good example of evolution. If it's true, & only 2 of every kind of animal was on the so called "ark", then they over time would've evolved into new types of that creature. For instance, I'm inclined to believe that there was maybe some kind of wolf like creature on the ark, that eventually led to not only wolves, but foxes, hyeanas(sp?) & all the differe types of domestic dog's. Same with cat's, there was probably 1 or 2 types of cats, that eventually evolved into both the bigger & smaller cats.
And the same goes with the 8 people that allegedly survived the flood. I believe that they all gradually made up new races of humans. I do believe in the lineage of man from Adam & Eve, which also makes me think that there some types of humans that no longer exist, if they were killed in the flood. It might explain the different types of primitive humans that have been discovered
I do believe that with the male & female, that it makes it harder to procreate, & wonder why we divided into two specific seperate creatures that have to mate with eachother, rather then being some kind of creature that can just split off to procreate, or some kind of hermaphrodites like some creatures are. What made me think about this is an episode of Star Trek Enterprise, where it's mentioned that the Andorian's require 5 to procreate. With male & female, from what I understand, they would've had to evolve at the exact same time & be fully compatible with eachother for them to make a child. And if their parts weren't fully compatible, that would make those part vestigial, & they would be discarded.
I personally havn't come up with my own thoughts on why God would've used full blown evolution, it seems like, from my point of view, that it would make more sense to just create the different animals & allow them to broaden out within those types. But, just because I don't believe in evolving from one creature to the next, doesn't make me right. It's just what seems most logical to me. :-k
For me, belief in God doesn't mean he'll just go around granted me wishes or protecting me. The Bible says that he makes it rain upon the good & the wicked, & sun shine upon the good & wicked, & I think Jesus said that we are all victim's of time & unforeseen circumstance. So, just because I believe God is there, doesn't mean I have a magic bubble around mean, deffinitly not. We all have to go thru good times & bad, no doubt.
Ofcoarse, some believe in an imortal soul that goes to heaven or hell, but I don't believe in that. I don't believe that Bible teaches that. Infact Jesus said that death is like sleep, & that there's no knowledge, nor wisdom, nor devising, etc. in sheol(the grave), & the dead are concious of nothing at all. They're not being burned in fiery torment(quite a few old religions teach that or something similar, & it did get adopted into most Christian churches), nor are they in limbo twiddling their thumbs, & along with that, I don't believe that anyone is sitting on a cloud strumming a harp. The words Sheol(Hebrew) & Hades(Greek), usually get translated into the word hell, but, IIRC it actually litteraly means "the common man's grave". That's it, we die, we're done. The soul that is sinning, it itself shall die. I believe we all sin/imperfect, & that a person "is" a soul, rather then "has" a soul, & then we die & aren't aware of anything at all.
In regards to Adam & Eve's children mating with eachother(brother & sister), my thoughts are that it goes back to our dna degrading. I think at one time, we were in much better shape(might explain the longgggggg life spans earlier in the Bible), but that once Adam ate the fruit(the Bible doesn't actually say what kind of fruit it was), that he passed on corruption, so to speak. I believe that corrution is passed on from the male, & that if he were to not have eaten, he could've still mated with Eve, & they would've had perfect children. And that might explain why Jesus was to be born of a virgin. With no male involved, the "sin gene" would not be inherited. So, if that's true, then God didn't do it, just to be some kind of miracle, but, also because he had to, based on the laws he had already set in place. So, then theoretically I think their children would be, for lack of a better term, closer to perfection, allowing humans to mate with someone related closer to them, then what we are physically capable of today....nor socially accepted(thankfully) in most area's of the world. When someone does commit incest, our corruption would be increased 10-fold, resulting in entire town's in the backwoods :)
As for the tree of good & bad(which I think is also where the Greek Ambrosia comes from), I don't know if it was something in the fruit that actually started breaking down Adam's genes, or if somehow, the act of willfully sinning(since they were "perfect" they would've had to sin totally on purpose I would guess :-k) corrupted his body. Apparently though, some Christians believe that the forbidden fruit was sex itself...but, that makes no sense, how the heck are we supposed to have children & enjoy eachothers bodies if Adam & Eve weren't allowed to have sex?!?
None of this makes me right though, it's just what I believe based on what I've been able to gather in my lifetime thus far. Who knows what I will discover, or what humans in general will discover in the next 5, 10, 20 years, etc.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 28, 2011, 03:43:58 AM
Interesting stuff... a couple of points though:
Evolution isn't a ramp to which an "ultimate form" can be accomplished, therefore there is no "ceiling". It's a process where organisms change to survive better in their environment. Just because something is evolved, that doesn't mean it's advanced. Even amoeba has evolved over the millenia. It's not something you "believe", it's something you "understand". Oh, and the appendix's function is already known... it's meant to aid in the digestion of wood. Since we don't eat wood anymore, it currently serves no function. It's a throwback from our ancestral species; earlier species ate plants exclusively.
The story of Adam and Eve is nonsense. The Jewish version is also nonsense. They're based on previous creation stories from a time when mankind didn't have a clue as to the nature of abiogenesis. We know better now.
The flood story is also total nonsense. This too is based on previous stories. Portions of The Epic Of Gilgamesh is where most of the Bible's flood story comes from.
Keep in mind that these stories were written thousands of years ago by people who believed that the earth was flat, that the sun was drawn by chariots, that diseases were caused by demons, and that two of every kind of animal lived within walking distance of Noah's house.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 28, 2011, 06:59:05 AM
But Noah's Ark has already been discovered! (http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah%27s_ark.htm)
Funnily, they used carbon dating to determine that the remains are about 4,800 years old. It works for Noah's Ark but NOT for dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 28, 2011, 08:37:54 AM
I was kidding about the evolving in to balls of light or whatever, was thinking of the Q continuim from Star Trek on that :) It's all about what it takes to survive, I'm not counting on anyone turning into a guy with bones claws & regenerative powers that will be needed to survive. Yeah, I'm sure amoeba has evolved, everything does. Actually, the thing about our ancestors being exclusive plant eaters makes alot of sense. After the flood, they were instructed to eat meat to survive, maybe because of the lack of vegatation is one of my first guesses. But, if there was a global flood like how it's described, it could maybe even change the environment, maybe the carbon changed drastically from such a catastrophic event.
Kind of off topic, but, after visiting Stone Henge, my wife & I were thinking it might be possible for it to be pre-flood & have survived. There's no seismic activity in the area, the stones are sunken in the ground by 1/3 IIRC, & I think they date back to sometime around when the flood was supposed to have happened, somewhere around I think 4500 years ago or something like that, which seems to go along with those remains of Noah's ark....if they're real. I don't know that if it exists, that it would be intact. Ofcoarse, most people believe the ark was a boat with Noah hanging out with the animals doing some rain bathing. However, that's not how the Bible describes it. Based on cubits, it sounds like some sort of giant rectangle, which makes more sense to me, seems like a boat would get absolutely destroyed in that kind of situation. And ofcoarse, that so called discovery says it has a stern.....so, yeah, I'm not buying it being Noah's ark.
Actually, atleast in the Bible, it says the earth is a sphere that hangs upon nothing, even though everyone else at the time believe it was maybe held up by 4 elephants on a turtles back, etc. It also seems to indicate that disease was spread atleast partially from filth. The Israelites were absolutely required to take a dump outside the camp, & I think not only that, but not anywhere near a source of water....unlike the Thames of more recent centuries :)
Ive thought about the dinosaurs, & havn't personally thought of a reason for them dying off, though, some Christians don't believe in them at all! I deffinitly believe alot of the similar stories from other cultures are related, like what I mentioned about ambrosia(not that I have any proof though) as well as Hercules(half human son of a god) being linked to maybe the nephilim(half human sons of spirits/gods). I think it may be possible that the Bible's version of various linked stories just weren't starting to be written down until Moses time(later then Gilgamesh, etc.). And if God exists, that he inspired the various writers to have the correct details, rather then just relying on passed down word of mouth. If it was word of mouth, then I would think there's bound to be things that changed, like the telephone game. Noah built the ark & purple monkey dishwashers. :lol:
As for the animals, if God exists, I think the Bible does say that the animals were guided to the ark by him. Even if not, that's what I personally think, that even if Noah was to just gather up the animals, I would still think that God was involved somehow. Plus, I forget how long the ark took to make...40 years maybe? Might've been longer. I would think there would be plenty of time for animals to make a trek to his area. Plus, it seems like alot of the ancestors of the animals we have today were around the area of the garden of eve. From there, they could've evolved into what we have now. Animals like penguins that survive in a cold climate couldve been totally different then, & have since evolved to thriving in that type of climate, if that makes any sense? Even then, I don't know if maybe there was a certain type of bird that we have now that was on the ark that evolved into different types of birds. I would think, with birds, there was probably many kinds on the ark, & those all evolved into what we have today.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 28, 2011, 09:12:15 AM
There was no flood within the time of modern humans. Period. The story is hogwash. Even if the time period was 40 years, there's way too much to consider in terms of logistics. This video will sum it up:
Our ancestral species ate plants exclusively... not our species. Many other members of the homo genus ate plants and nothing else. Homo neanderthalensis was also omnivorous, but they were "outbred", so to speak, about 130 thousand years ago. The homo genus goes back about two and a half million years, but our kind is only about two hundred thousand years old. Our primary rival subspecies, idaltu, was vanquished about 160 thousand years ago, leaving only us, homo sapiens sapiens, as the sole survivor of the homo genus. Eventually, homo will either have another subspecies evolution or will be eliminated entirely.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 28, 2011, 03:32:23 PM
My understanding of the ark is that it was a giant retangle box. The example of the ark in the video is not like the ark described in the Bible, if they were trying to be accurate from how I understand the measurements. But, I'm no mathmetician, so, I'm the wrong person to go to for what cubits translates to into feet, etc. :D And I'm inclinded to believe that all animals back then may have been herbavores, but that's only based on the commandment that Noah & his family eat meat after the flood, & later in Revelation where it speaks of the lion eating straw like the bull, which may be just figurative & not literal.
I deffinitly don't believe it was all magic, but that's just my own thoughts. I think God did use alot of the natural laws in regards to alleged miracles, rather then stuff just appearing. But, ofcoarse God guiding the animals that would be on the ark, could still be considered magic. I actually believe that the flood created ice ages, so, that all makes sense to me. IIRC they believe that the ice age started suddenly, with mammoth's etc. still having edible food in their mouths.
I have no problem with the figures stated of how much food was needed, etc. The ark was friggin' huge, I don't recall specifically, wasn't it like the size of 3 football fields or something riciculous like that, once again, comes down to cubits. I recall cubits being something along the lines of the basic mearsurement from a man's fingers with an open palm down to the elbow? So, in looking at my arm, roughly 18 inches was a cubit if I'm recalling right. Though, I suppose it's possible that no one has the cubit figured out right? Assumingly, it would've had atleast 8 people working on it over however many years it took to build it with the various wood(was it some kind of cedar??) & tar & I think even had primitive nails IIRC. Honestly, with things like the pyramids, etc. I believe ancient man was alot smarter & capable then most people give them credit for.
But I also am inclined to believe in the flood based on the various cultures found around the world, including Native Americans that have the story. I was talking to one Native American from south eastern Canada IIRC, he said their tradition was something, like a squid or octopus got stuck in a hole in a lake, & plugged it up & it filled the whole world. Somethign like that. While I don't believe that's what happened, nor do I think it's any kind of proof, I still find it interesting none the less. There's no way that I know of to prove that a global flood happened during the life & times of the homo sapien, but. And honestly, maybe animals & humans can evolve quicker then we currently understand. Maybe there will be some new discovery someday, we're always discovering something new about not only the universe itself, but the planet that we live on.
Once again though, just because I believe or understand something one way, doesn't mean I'm right. While I believe there could be aliens, I personally don't think there are. But I could be totally wrong, no doubt.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 28, 2011, 11:35:35 PM
I have a few observations. I've tried to word these so they are not misconstrued as a personal attack (which they are not), but I know belief is a touchy subject.
I deffinitly don't believe the Bible is totally litteral, there's just no way IMO... I don't believe a single one of them is real. Other's you have to figure out what they represent based on their attributes & features.
I think a lot of Christians have a similar outlook on the Bible. The question to be asked is waht is the criteria for determining which parts are literal and which are not? You state later that you believe in Adam and Eve, yet not in the Antichrist. Why not? Are you just picking and choosing which bits of the Bible you like and discarding those that you don't (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Christianity)? If so, what basis do you have to believe any of its claims?
I think that if God exists, alot of the miracles in the bible, are God using natural laws. For instance, I believe it says that God caused ridiculously strong winds to hold up the Red Sea, rather then him just, making it stand up with no explanation whatsoever.
So if all these 'miracles' happened by purely natural mechanisms, why jump to the conclusion that 'Godditit.'? Hey, I saw a double rainbow the other day, so Godditit even though it's explainable by natural means. So if these miracles were not supernatural (as you imply) then there is nothing to distinguish the world with God from the world without God, and the God hypothesis is not only redundant, but really stretching credibility.
A being of some kind as I described above... is what seems most logical to me. And I find that logic differ's from person to person, so what I believe, isn't always going to be logical to the next person.
A supernatural being seems most logical? Despite all we know of the way the universe works, the logical conclusion is some sort of invisible magic entity? Really? Logic does not differ from person to person. At least the rules of logic are objective. It's the conclusions that are drawn that tend to differ, but I get your point.
There are so many little grouple that believe in some human leader that will lead them to so called salvation, but I believe most, if not all of those leaders are just taking advantage of the people
I try to think more about what I'm into or getting into, rather then just going along with the crowd. I try to reason on things, rather then just taking a blind leap of faith like alot of Christians to do.
Yet you can't deny that some of your beliefs still require a blind leap of faith, often completely at odds with the evidence.
I was raised around both creation & evolution, & while I deffinitly believe in creation, you could say I partially believe in evolution.
Common misconception. Creation and evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive. They each have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You are mistaking evolution with abiogenesis (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abiogenesis).
& if not for modern science as well as just plain cleanliness, our life spans would be shorter then they generally are in comparison to hundreds of years ago, when you could be 35 & an old man ,
People weren't actually 'old men' back then in terms of rapid ageing. They just died younger due to disease and other factors. I guess you meant that, just wanted to clarify.
I don't believe that everything came from nothing however
To the best of our knowledge, the universe came from a singularity. I don't think we have a way to know if this came from nothing or something. If it came from something, where did that something come from? It's one of those questions which is probably impossible to answer.
I believe there is a limit or plateu to evolution, & that everything stays within this limit.
There is no artificial ceiling to the process of evolution, and no evidence to suggest that there is. Of course, we cannot evolve in a supernatural way physically impossible, and the only limit to evolution is the environment in which the process of natural selection takes place.
I believe it's possible that we don't actually have vestigial organs, but that the one's that are considered vestigial(I think most people accept that the appendix is linked to the immune system IIRC?), are either just not understood yet, or are even faulty.
I'm sure biologists would be very interested if you can refute the mounds of evidence to the contrary. You'd probably win the Nobel Prize.
For instance, I'm inclined to believe that there was maybe some kind of wolf like creature on the ark, that eventually led to not only wolves, but foxes, hyeanas(sp?) & all the differe types of domestic dog's. Same with cat's, there was probably 1 or 2 types of cats, that eventually evolved into both the bigger & smaller cats.
However, the timescales involved in the Bible are not nearly sufficient to see such rapid evolution take place. I can highly recommend the book The Greatest Show on Earth (http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/B004AYCWY4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319879229&sr=8-1) by Rickard Dawkins. It's a wonderful explanation of the evolutionary process.
And the same goes with the 8 people that allegedly survived the flood. I believe that they all gradually made up new races of humans. I do believe in the lineage of man from Adam & Eve, which also makes me think that there some types of humans that no longer exist, if they were killed in the flood. It might explain the different types of primitive humans that have been discovered.
No. What explains the different types of primitive humans is the process of evolution via natural selection. In fact, it explains it so perfectly that no other hypothesis (particularly one relying on magic) is required. By your reasoning, what did Adam and Eve look like? Homo habilis? Nakalipithecus? How far do you go back?
I do believe that with the male & female, that it makes it harder to procreate, & wonder why we divided into two specific seperate creatures that have to mate with eachother, rather then being some kind of creature that can just split off to procreate
This is likely due to the genetic benefits and survivability that comes from sharing genetic information. I'm really no biologist, but there are plenty of places (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction) to get a start on the ideas about this.
I personally havn't come up with my own thoughts on why God would've used full blown evolution, it seems like, from my point of view, that it would make more sense to just create the different animals & allow them to broaden out within those types.
It's probably because every God is a non-existant man-made being.
But, just because I don't believe in evolving from one creature to the next, doesn't make me right.
Very true. But you need to ask yourself why you don't accept the evidence. Perhaps you need to understand evolution better; many people only have a vague grasp on evolution based on things they've mostly forgotten from school and disinfomation from religious organisations.
For me, belief in God doesn't mean he'll just go around granted me wishes or protecting me. The Bible says that he makes it rain upon the good & the wicked, & sun shine upon the good & wicked, & I think Jesus said that we are all victim's of time & unforeseen circumstance. So, just because I believe God is there, doesn't mean I have a magic bubble around mean, deffinitly not. We all have to go thru good times & bad, no doubt.
The Bible says a lot of things. Many of them contradict each other or are so vague as to be completely useless. So you can pretty much make the Bible say what you want it to say. All your wishes granted? Check. Not all your wishes granted? Check.
I don't believe that Bible teaches that. Infact Jesus said that death is like sleep, & that there's no knowledge, nor wisdom, nor devising, etc. in sheol(the grave), & the dead are concious of nothing at all. They're not being burned in fiery torment(quite a few old religions teach that or something similar, & it did get adopted into most Christian churches), nor are they in limbo twiddling their thumbs, & along with that, I don't believe that anyone is sitting on a cloud strumming a harp. The words Sheol(Hebrew) & Hades(Greek), usually get translated into the word hell, but, IIRC it actually litteraly means "the common man's grave". That's it, we die, we're done. The soul that is sinning, it itself shall die. I believe we all sin/imperfect, & that a person "is" a soul, rather then "has" a soul, & then we die & aren't aware of anything at all.
There are so many conflicting views, even within Christian circles about fiery torment, hell etc. Some believe hell is just being disconnected from God. I think you'd find more than a few Christians who would disagree that the Bible doesn't teach about our souls going to heaven or hell though.
In regards to Adam & Eve's children mating with eachother(brother & sister), my thoughts are that it goes back to our dna degrading. I think at one time, we were in much better shape(might explain the longgggggg life spans earlier in the Bible), but that once Adam ate the fruit(the Bible doesn't actually say what kind of fruit it was), that he passed on corruption, so to speak. I believe that corrution is passed on from the male, & that if he were to not have eaten, he could've still mated with Eve, & they would've had perfect children.
Or it might be just a story and you made all of that up based on nothing.
None of this makes me right though, it's just what I believe based on what I've been able to gather in my lifetime thus far. Who knows what I will discover, or what humans in general will discover in the next 5, 10, 20 years, etc.
I admit it's fun to pick apart stories and come up with clever mental gymnastics to explain away things you don't understand, but if you actually, truthfully, believe all this, I would suggest you do further research, particularly in biology, the history of the Bible (and all religions) and the counter arguments.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 29, 2011, 08:29:13 PM
Cool, I don't want to feel awkward around friends.
I don't think I would say that I pick & choose what to believe is literal & what is figurative. It's more about context. Sometimes some things in scripture are ridiculously obvious that they're literal(though, I'm sure some would argue otherwise) or figurative. It seems to me like literal things are in groups(for lack of a better term), as are figurative. It doesn't seem like alot of figurative stuff is lumped right in the middle of literal stuff, not sure how else to word it, but, I could be wrong. I believe that Adam & Eve were real based on the lineage traced from Adam to Jesus in a couple of the books, including David & Solomon in the lineage, & also I recall a time or 2 when Jesus spoke of them as if they were real people, rather then just a story. So that's what inclines me to believe they existed in general.
As for miracles, I didn't mean to give the impression that they were all based on natural law. Just that, I think in many cases, God used natural laws, like with the Red Sea, & atleast some of the 10 plagues, & the delivering of quail into Israel, etc. However, there's other things I just don't think were using natural laws, unless there's still some natural law's we still don't understand today, I suppose that's possible. But, for instance, I can't think of any way Jesus could've kept supplying continuous fish & bread, using natural laws. Assuming it actually happened, it does indeed sound like magic. Same goes for alot or all of the healings in the Bible, not that I'm a scientist, but, I have no idea how they'd be done, without God breaking the natural laws.
The anti-christ seems more like a mythical beast so to speak, & earlier it was stated that in the first century, there are already many anti-christs. I don't believe that the anti-christ is a mythical magical superhuman or anything. I'm more inclined to believe that it maybe refers to a group of people with no magical powers or anything. More like a group that doesn't even know they are the so called anti-christ, & they could even consider themselves christian, but teach ideas that seem contrary to the Bible, like hellfire, limbo, the trinity, that Mary's image will appear in grilled cheese sandwhiches, etc. That's probably the easiest way to explain it. Once again though, what sounds literal to one, sounds figurative to another. I won't say I can prove one way over another, just because I believe a certain way.
My idea about God being some kind of multi or omni-chrono singularity is ofcoarse, nothing more then an idea, no proof, I doubt there ever would be. It's just me thinking about things. Probably my ocd kicking in gear, I tend to just think about random stuff, especially stuff based on what we know so far about the universe & natural laws. Though, I do think we'll probably know alot more in another 100 years. The stuff we keep discovering is amazing, The Fibonacci sequence is something that impresses me & I think is quite cool, though I'm no mathmetician. I saw watched a documentray or 2 on it, & I personally find it intruiging, & to me seems like design, rather then chance. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, it's just one of those things that really seems to make sense to me.
Yeah, most Christians worship Jesus, though, they think he IS God, so, if he's God, then he's technically not a human, just was for a short period of time. Either way, I don't believe he is God, but rather God's son. I don't believe that God is a 3 headed ogre of some sort. That's one interesting thing. I can't figure out how people can believe the Trinity, & they can't figure out how I don't. To them, the Bible is riddled with scriptures that support the Trinity. To me, just the opposite. Yes, Jesus talked about being one with the Father....but, he also said that a husband & wife should be one! Is that literal..or figurative? Are my wife & I supposed to litteraly join our bodies together based on scripture? He also said let his disciples be one, just as he & God are one. Once again, are they supposed to be some sort of literal multi headed hermaphrodite or something?? I don't believe it, it sounds figurative of being unified in love, joy peace, etc. etc.
Oh yeah, faith is deffinitly involved, & I personally feel I lack alot of faith, & I pray to have faith where I lack it. In no way, shape or form can I see or show anyone, God. What I call evidence to me, is certainly not evidence to someone else. I've always been taugh though, not to have just faith, but to examine & think about things, rather then just blindly believe every last thing without any seeming proof. ?And the Bible itself says that anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps, & encourage using the power of reason...of which I tend to think alot of Christians don't do, but end up literally blindly believing in stuff, but I can't say for sure, I'm no mind reader :D
Yeah, I know nothing about abiogenesis, so, that's something to learn about, no doubt. There's always plenty for me to learn about, though, I'm honestly no book worm, even though I am a thinker. I'll be learning till I'm old & grey.
As for us gradually dying(so to speak), I have no evidence, it's just another one of my thoughts, & nothing more. To my knowledge, no religion I know of teaches it, & I don't necessarily believe it, but to me it might make sense only based on lifespans allegedly getting shorter in the Bible. Maybe there's still more at play in regards to aging & dna, etc. that we still haven't discovered? I have no idea.
And yeah, I didn't literally mean old men, just relatively speaking.
I tend to think that the big bang sounds logical for starting things. I think I stated earlier, that I believe the planets & universe itself were started before the 6 creative days, which could've been random lengths of time, thousand or millions or billions, what is time to a being that I think may be outside of time as we understand time currently? In any case, yeah, I have no idea if anyone can ever answer that one way or the other. Maybe someday someone would find an answer, but later it's found they didn't fit in a certain calculation? Who knows.
Nobel Prize, hear I come :lol: No, but seriously, it's just my own thoughts, & nothing more. I don't aspire to be anyone great that has some awesome discovery, though it'd be cool if I did discover something, no doubt.
Yeah, I know about the 2 for unclean & 7 for clean. Seems like most people just focus on the 2 unclean, so I just didn't bother to include them.
Adam & Eve's appearance? No idea. Once again, just a thought of mine in regards to ancient man. I'm inclined at the least to think they were dark skinned. Even now we do have a bit of variation in the different races, probably have alot more we're capable of for all I know. And in the same general location there's groups like the hutu's, tutsi's & twa's. If nothing else, it's just interesting in general to see diversity. My dad made a comment to me(he tends to be a thinker as well) about to him that it seems like maybe having male & female would introduce more variety into the genepool, rather then amoeba or hermaphrodite type breeding, where it would seem like that would be more like just straight cloning.
Actually, in regards to God or god's, I've had a couple of thoughts on what they could be composed of. I think the most obvious idea for someone to come up with, is that they exist in a different dimension, one that we havn't figured out yet. And that they are not material, infact, not male nor female. Even though biblicaly they take the form of a male, doesn't necessarily mean they have a sex. I'm inclined to belive they sexless & don't procreate, other then God making others. I have no proof though, just me musing. Another is that maybe God is composed of the elements we havent' discovered yet?
I'm still learning about how evolution works, & will continue to do so. And yeah, any book that uses figurative language can be taken in a millions different ways, so then it's, who has it figured out? Is my belief's the truth? Just because I believe it is, doesn't make it so. It seems like most the Christians I run into still believe in hellfire, though, in this day & age, I'm sure there's more churches teaching it dfferently...thankfully. I know my grandmothers church taught that if a baby doesn't get baptized, & it dies, then it'll burn in hell forever. That was always something that to her seemed to conflict with other teachings in the Bible, & it truly disgusted her, & she eventually left when she found a group that, to her, reasoned with the scriptures, instead of just saying, that's the way it is, & didn't believe in seemingly contradicting ideas.
In regards to heaven or hell though, to me, it's more about, what did the original translation of hell mean, especially when it even spoke of good people going to hell/sheol/hades. And as strange as it sounds, at this time, I still believe that a small number of people will go to heaven to rule as king's & priests, but I am not one of them, & don't wish to be. I wish to live on earth along with the great crowd of other sheep spoken of that would live on earth, though, this is probably getting a bit wierd sounding, so I'll move on.
Yeah, like I said, it's just more thinking on my part(in regards to Adam & Eve & their children, etc.). To my knowledge, it's not a teaching of any religion, just PD pondering :D
That thing about the mistranslation of almah sounds familiar. I have no proof in front of me, but feel like I read an article on that very thing, & that there was another word used in the hebrew scriptures(or was almah the hebrew word?) that also referred to the vigrin conception & did mean virgin, or maybe that it was that almah translated to young woman literally, but back in those times meant a virgin? I honestly don't know, but it does sound familiar. And yeah, I always have continuing research to do...I'd say, life is research, atleast in my case :)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 30, 2011, 02:21:26 AM
What I wanna know is... if you don't actually believe the Bible... why bother calling yourself "Christian"?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 30, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
I would think that "Christian" defines those who believe that Jesus was the son of god.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 30, 2011, 11:16:51 AM
Not necessarily. The word means "Christ-like", indicating that those who call themselves "Christian" strive to be like their religious figurehead. Of course, this alone eliminates over 99% of self-proclaimed "Christians".
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 30, 2011, 12:48:23 PM
Well I doubt Jesus ever read the Bible, so they're just like Christ!
It's funny, because I know a few Christians who insist that Catholics aren't Christians.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on October 30, 2011, 03:31:30 PM
A lot of Protestants claim that Catholics aren't Christians, which is kind of like claiming that the PC Engine isn't a game console.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Gogan on November 11, 2011, 08:25:21 AM
Jus saw this thread, Here's what I believe:
1. Do the right thing, and 2. treat people good.
Idk what religion that is, but man, if everyone followed that....
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 11, 2011, 09:21:10 AM
Agreed. Nobody needs religion to do good. Well, some people use it as their crutch, saying you can't do good without religion. Those people would be idiots no matter if they were religious or not.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 11, 2011, 03:19:32 PM
I also agree, there is good already in man in general. That's not saying there aren't evil people, I think there are. But even religion-less people do good deeds...........along with religious people that do truly wicked things.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 11, 2011, 11:35:43 PM
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Gogan on November 12, 2011, 06:03:01 AM
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg
My mind has just been blown lol
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Fatality on November 12, 2011, 05:28:08 PM
I'm a Catholic. I feel bad that I don't go to church as often as I should. Damn lazyness and NFL on Sunday :evil:
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 12, 2011, 08:55:47 PM
That's OK. Tim Tebow is religious so you can get your god-time through him while watching football.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 22, 2011, 10:07:27 AM
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 22, 2011, 02:54:02 PM
I don't see anything about anyone raping a girl in verses 28 & 29. To me it sounds like a guy & girl who got their freak on & she lost her virginity, etc. So then he has to pay 50 silver shekels to the father & they must get married.
Even then, that was only under the Mosaic Law which ended technically when the Messiah arrived, but officially it ended I believe around 70 CE when I think the temple was destroyed by Rome, the Israelites no longer had a temple or alter, or the Ark of the Covenant, so they couldn't even continue officially with the Law anymore. I think some believe that the Ark may have been taken when captured by Babylon, but I'm not sure which took what. Either way, the Law was done away with, I think atleast partially due to the Israelite nation being spread out because of their capture by the Babylonians, & plus the allowance of gentiles into what I think is called spiritual Israel. At that point, there was no longer a specific nation that had special privlidges(including many gentiles that were called at the time, Jewish proselytes IIRC).
Back to the rape thing, offhand, the only thing I can think of that would sound like rape was involved was a scripture that implied that if a girl didn't scream loud enough or something to that effect, they wouldn't call it rape. I forget exactly, but either way, I think it's more about was she trying to scream, or was she actually consenting, maybe even later claimed it to be rape(like some women do today unfortunately) even though she consented when they were getting their freak on. I don't remember if that was in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. Probably doesn't matter honestly, but if a law is in the Hebrew scriptures, that doesn't mean it can be applied in the Greek scriptures since the Law had passed away.
Even then, in regards to laws that were broken intentionally or even unintentionally under Mosaic Law, there's nothing that says that people who were put to death for breaking the law, wouldn't be resurected later along with both the righteous & unrighteous & given another chance. The only time I know of when people won't be resurected is when they die at Armageddon, or if they sinned against the holy spirit, like the priests who conspired to have Jesus put to death. Even then, I can't say anyone for sure, as only God is the judge, it's up to him.
As always, this is just what I believe at this point in life, & that doesn't mean I'm right. Hell, maybe all of us are wrong, maybe there's something nobody's ever even thought of that is "the truth". But, we deffinitly keep learning more as time goes on, so, assuming we don't nuke ourselves in World War 3, we'll all continue to learn about what makes up life as we know it.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nectarsis on November 22, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
That deuteronomy version is the NIV not KJV.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 22, 2011, 04:05:01 PM
Yeah, I was thinking about that, there's probably some translations that sound like rape. Either way, I'm sure scholars will continue to learn more & more about the original languages used in the Bible. So there could still be plenty of things that we're off on in regards to various scriptures, so even now there could still be mistranslations in every Bible up to this very day, making it hard if not impossible for many to believe the Bible.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 23, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:
Quote
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.
Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:
Quote
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,
24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
That's some twisted logic right there.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 23, 2011, 09:15:20 AM
So do you get killed for raping or a new wife? The Bible does not make this clear.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: blueraven on November 23, 2011, 10:02:58 AM
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 23, 2011, 02:54:59 PM
Wierd, I've never read that version of those scriptures before. In the NWT there's no mention of rape or anything. Infact, it implies that if it's found out what "they" did(not he, but they), then he must pay the 50 shekels for fornicating, etc. etc. It's no wonder people hate the Bible, especially when stuff ends up being translated like that. I think I have an NIV laying around somewhere, but havne't read it much. People who believe in God being 3 people & an immortal soul, etc. seem to go to that translation these days. Since I don't believe in that stuff, I haven't done alot of research on that particular Bible, though, I have done a few comparisons & found area's in the NIV that still made it sound like God & Jesus are seperate, & that a person's soul dies, which goes against what most people believe.
Even still, I wonder how much translator's will learn as time marches on. There could still be things that every translator is waaaaaaay off on for all I know.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 23, 2011, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: ParanoiaDragon
Wierd, I've never read that version of those scriptures before.
That's another thing I take issue with. Which version is correct? How can you prove that such-and-such a version of a passage is the right one? If it is God's word, then why is it modified? God's word should be God's word, no? You don't go changing that around unless you are simply making adjustments to fit the needs of your particular sect. In that sense, you have already taken God out of the equation.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 24, 2011, 05:55:54 AM
It's a bit of a stretch that the most powerful being in the multiverse can't make sure that all translations are accurate to his meaning. Just a subtle nudge of inspiration here and there would do it.
Perhaps he will have to perform another human sacrifice to sort it all out again soon.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 24, 2011, 12:44:38 PM
Yeah, believe me, it's annoying. At the very end of Revelation, is specifically states not to add nor take away from the Bible(certain extra-biblical books come to mind...but I will not name names), but some so-called scholars have been called out on adding there own stuff to the Bible itself. Really, it's hard to know if there's any translator who's not even slightly biased one way or another. And then even with any translation, like the NWT, some who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses will give it big props for sticking close to the oldest surviving texts, & call it one of the most accurate(though quite dry) Bible's, but then others will say they took liberties when making the NWT(ie:supposedly changing scriptures that support the trinity, imortal soul, hellfire, etc.).
So who can be believed? I won't say it's not difficult, cuz it is. I tend to be a conspiracy theorist, so I have a hard time trusting anything anyone says. Just the whole JFK fiasco makes me wary of who's really in control of the information we recieve. I do consider it a matter of prayer though, & the Bible says there would be a great apostacy, false christs, etc. And there deffinitly has been thruout the centuries. Just with the various atrocities done in the name of God we can all see people who claim to be followers of Christ, but are nothing like him. Same goes for anyone who changes the scriptures.
For instance, most Bibles nowaday don't have even a hint of God's name in it, even though the Bible clearly says that his name is important. Is his name "the Lord", is it just...."God", is it Elohim or Abba? Those are all just titles, not names. It's a conspiracy I tell'z ya, a CONSPIRACY! :D Seriously though, I do believe(even though I'm sure it sounds like nonsense) that's it the Devil guiding people to make translations that are inaccurate, so it's nigh impossible to even know which one is. Thankfully, some of the stuff that monks & such added over the centuries, have been found out, & are removed from modern day Bibles, which is why you'll see some scriptures that are blank.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 25, 2011, 04:48:14 AM
How do believers know what the Bible actually is? Translation aside, there's all those other gospels that the church have decided at some point will not be included. Should those be taken into account? And if not, should some that are already in there also be discarded? It's a whole spaghetti mess.
You believe the devil is guiding people to make bad translations? Well what if it was the devil himself that wrote/inspired the Bible? It certainly seems the most effective way to make people fight and kill each other, not to mention the really nasty stuff in the OT (Satan obviously got wise for the NT and toned it down so the intolerance was a lot more subtle). How's that for a conspiracy theory? :D
I think it's a good sign that you arern't just taking things at face value like many believers do, even if I don't exactly share your conclusions. I think you'd find it quite interesting to do more 'research' into critical thinking/skepticism. It might blow away some of your sacred cows, but it's quite enlightening. (A great podcast that deals soley with religion is Reasonable Doubts (http://freethoughtblogs.com/reasonabledoubts), check it out if you have some spare time).
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 25, 2011, 03:54:55 PM
Yeah, I've thought about those very same things many times, that maybe the Devil wrote it, or maybe God is just evil & is screwing around with people, but I've seen the good the Bible's done personally in my own life, & in others I know that don't go around harming others. My dad became a believer on the old 17th century King James version, even with any error's in it, he was able to figure out what made sense to him. I'm inclined to believe, even from a terrible translation, that people can learn alot of basic things, but even in those things, plenty of it can get misused.
Oh, as for those other books added to the Bible, there deffinitly seems to be things in those books that seem totally off. I can't attest to this personally, but many books like the Maccabee's, Judas, Mary, etc. don't have, as some would say, the ring of truth or canonicity. There's also the Jewish Targum's I've heard about. All of these books may actually have some things that are true, but scholar's can't find a way to include them in the Bible. This, like so many things, is something I still need to do more research on though.
I do believe that religion as a whole will be destroyed eventually(hopefully in my lifetime), & that should lead eventually into Armageddon, though, if I'm right remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be scary for someone like me, but I hope I hang in there & make it thru the alleged Armageddon.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on November 25, 2011, 04:41:03 PM
I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?
scripture link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:29&version=NIV)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 25, 2011, 08:08:23 PM
I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?
scripture link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:29&version=NIV)
For your interest, here's a timeline of the bible flood comparted to real historical events: (http://tinyfrog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/biblicaltimeline3.png)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 26, 2011, 05:15:38 PM
I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?
scripture link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:29&version=NIV)
At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word. However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.
Actually, seeing Stone Henge in there reminds me of something. I just went to Stone Henge in January, & something I found to be odd, was that the information on the tours given there, seems to conflict with information given on the pedia's. The main thing I recall from the tour, was that people seemed to disapear from the area all of a sudden somewhere about 4500 years ago, & the place was then rediscovered about 1000 years after that. That's right around the time of the alleged flood. Both my wife & I believe that it may predate the flood, & maybe was built by the nephilim. There's no evidence to support it, it's just a theory of ours. It ma seem ridiculous, but, those stones are sunken well into the ground, & there's no seismic activity in the area. Hard to know though how much or little of the ground was surrounding the stones way back then. The stones themseleves may have been much bigger then how they are now, given erosion.
But, either way, I've been given conflicting non-biblical information, so that makes me wary of who to believe in regards to archeological history. And even then, how trustworthy are the various methods of dating things? Sure, it's nice when something seems to match up with Biblical history, but, either way, I'm sure every & all methods of dating are still fallible. The carbon dating method is one I think of. What if there was something cataclysmic that we don't know about that totally changed the amount of carbon in the atmosphere? Wouldn't that give a false reading? If there was some sort of waterband surrounding the earth, (making it so that there was light, but the sun & stars weren't clearly visable I would assume) it fell creating not only tremendous rain, but also froze the poles(an ice age, freezing mammoths with food still in their mouths, that still boggle's me) & changed the earth from maybe from tropical to the various zones we have today. It would seem like something like that would have a big effect of the carbon, among other things, however, I'm no scientist, nor the inventor of that dating process, so, my knowledge is limited in that regard. But it's all still something I think about.
Without a time machine, there's really no way for anyone on any side to prove anything about time, other then maybe more recent history, even then, there can be error's. Not to mention, all societies have changed their own recorded history. IIRC, Egypt has been specifically known to change their own records of atleast defeats in history. So, what if those who came up with these timelines, as well as the processes to figure out the timelines are wrong. It's not like we don't find out from time to time that they were wrong about something, just as anybody else, can be wrong. Maybe in 100 years, recorded history with all it's dates that we have, could be completely off, there's just no way to know, which is frusterating to me. I want the truth, & that's all.
I feel like, or atleast I hope, someday, even if it's past my time, we'll all have the historical truth, no matter what it is, even if it doesn't line up at all with Biblical history. But I say hope, only because, we're still dealing with humans, who make mistakes, that's just life, we all do it. And if time travel were possible, that could really screw up time, so, I hope it's not possible, but that seems like the only way to find out things for sure. I've often wondered if our current view of what dinosaurs looked like with skin & all is totally different from how they were for real. What if none of them were actually carnivore's, what if there was a different reason for some having the sharper teeth(I'm not saying there weren't carnivore's, but it's something that's crossed my mind)?
So I guess, human error really bothers me & makes me wary of what to believe. The Bible, at this time, still makes sense to me, if only for the changes in my own personal life that I've seen. I won't get into all my personal life issue's, but, I have plenty. But I've made biblical changes that have improved my personality among many other things. So, I guess at that point, it boils down to faith in something that's helped me personally be a better person. I'm tempted to say more, but I just don't want to get into a bunch of my personal life crap.
Plus, with stuff like the earth being called a sphere in a time(assuming the dating of the scriptures is correct) when people did not believe it was, or like Nod said, back in those days, people believed sickness came from demon possession or whatever, but the Israelites were to be extremely clean, taking a dump outside of the camp, covering it with dust, not eating certain animals during a time when they were nomads & probably didn't have a decent way of getting rid of certain bacteria that would make them sick(atleast, that's what I get out of it). These things don't seem like normal human knowledge for back in those days(once again, assuming the Bible was written when it says it was written). And then there's prophecies that to me, seem to add up with known history. But, I'm sure by most people, it'd be considered ridiculous, but it all seems clear as day to me. However, I could be wrong about prophecies. Even ones that were to have happened already.
For instance, to paraphrase, I believe the "beast that was, but wasn't, but now is", was the Leagues of Nations, which disbanded IIRC when WW2 started, but then came back as the United Nations, & that that beast is going to turn on the harlot, which I believe is false religion that's been having relations with the nations, getting involved in polotics, taking advantage of people, etc. And then whichever people is correct, will still be around, as it says that the beast will turn to God's people, but it will be like touching his eyeball, as in, he'd react immediately at that point, bringing on the great tribulation. Ofcoarse, all of that probably falls into the "magic" category, but, it's what I believe at this time. So, at this time, I don't consider it unreasonable to believe that there is an intelligence of some kind well beyond humans.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: rag-time4 on November 27, 2011, 08:09:11 AM
I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?
scripture link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:29&version=NIV)
At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word. However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.
Paranoia d, i agree; I also believe that the 900+ year lifespan of Noah, Methuselah, and Adam are true in the Bible. However, I think that it is society that has devolved. I think that it comes down to Noah et al eating way less food and much better quality food in terms of nutrition and purity. Today I think people tend to eat way too often and eat for pleasure rather than strictly for nutrition. Also, they all likely had very healthy spiritual and emotional lives as well.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on November 27, 2011, 05:04:54 PM
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree, but I do think it might be possible they were genetically superior to us as well. Since corrution was inherited from Adam & Eve, I think it may be a gradual process that passes it on little by little over the generations. Not that I have any proof, it's just something I ponder about. Ofcoarse, they don't have things like polution & chemicals in their food like we have today. Let's face it, 99.9% of the food we have available to day has something wrong with it. They may have eaten less, I suppose that's a possibility. By Roman times, the Romans themselves supposedly would eat for pleasure, making themselves throw up just to eat more food.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on September 07, 2012, 06:09:54 PM
Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:
Quote
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.
Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:
Quote
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,
24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
That's some twisted logic right there.
Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally. :|
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on September 07, 2012, 10:17:34 PM
Yes, people who go on about how it's a moral guide really need to read the book first.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: BlueBMW on September 08, 2012, 01:40:00 AM
Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally. :|
Good to see you are still around Ceti! Hadnt seen you in a while!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: RegalSin on September 08, 2012, 04:03:06 AM
I did not read through the whole form but I believe religion is a scapegoat for ways of life that reinforces our virtues ( I think that sounds right ). One half of Religion is spiritual, and was past down to generation and generation to learn from our mistakes, and while their is lies and truths mixed, they were created for us to live highly. Most laws are surrounded by Religious beliefs.
When the pilgrooms visited India they felt the people were immoral, because of the Yanksee statues carved on the many Buddist, and Hindu temples ( if that is correct ). The Yakshees were all examples of fertility, and it was something that could be shared.
The other-side of Religion is control, and only control. A means to weaken peoples mind, so they can be submissive to society demands. So basically it is a protection for the wrong doers as well. In "Rome" AKA the European Empire, it was mismanaged, and after eruptions of volcano's that led to the black plague/dark ages, they converted to Christianity. However that was also corrupted. They had this big empire, and not enough people, who was able to be loyal enough to the empire. The same could be said for modern day China, and WWII Germania. Even USA, and the Common Wealth are examples of nations that are too spread out for control. So with religion they weaken the hearts of the citizens giving them relief from the pain or worry of battle.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: thesteve on September 08, 2012, 04:45:37 AM
wow, i never thought i'd say it, but well said regal
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on September 08, 2012, 05:06:57 AM
Holy necropost Batman :lol:
And... yeah, it's strange, but RegalSin is right... for the most part. :D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ceti alpha on September 08, 2012, 06:25:35 AM
Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:
Quote
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.
Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:
Quote
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,
24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
That's some twisted logic right there.
Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally. :|
I think I said this before, but either way, I have no idea why that translator rendered the original hebrew as "rape". More litteral translations(which, can be very dry & even harder to read thru) render the original hebrew as "to lay down with/lies down with/lying down" which is just a blanket statement for sex, not rape. Not to mention that it says, if "they" are found out, not "he". So that would make it a consenual act, though I believe more blame is held on the man, rather then the woman.
Even then, all that was under Mosaic law, before the New Covenant was to be fulfilled, which doesn't apply to anyone today. Israel(which included Jewish proselytes/people of other nations who joined Israel) was supposed to be a holy nation, & failed as a whole to live up to that. They were supposed to be seperate from the other nations, & were instructed as a nation to not be like them. Then when the Messiah came, the new law (which they knew was coming) came into effect, & Israel had already been destroyed, with Jews(& later Christians) spred out among the nations by that time. With them all spread out, the new law, was deffinitely more leniant. While in the desert as Israel, they didn't really have any excuse to do be like the other nations in their practices. Now that they were spred out, their was more influence to do what was considered immoral, & to "fall into sin" as it were. So, atleast scriptually, God took that into account, which is where the Greek scriptures comes into play, & why people tend to call God in the Hebrew scriptures as being angry & wrathful in comparison. There was deffinitely more emphasis on forgiveness in the Greek, but, atleast to me, it just goes along with the differences of circumstances of the Israelites & the Christians.
As for what Regal Sin said, I actually kind of agree as well. Probably atleast some religions were made specifically to bend people to their will. But all the more so, religions have twisted scripture to scare people into attending their churches. The Catholic church is the most notorious, since they specifically adopted various pagan customs (such as hellfire, an immortal soul, a God that is three people in one) not only to win pagans over, but to scare their patrons into confession, etc. or they'll burn in hell for eternity, blah blah blah. But, that's not in the scriptures, it was later added/twisted in the 4th century, starting with the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE(& Emperor Constantine eventually made Cathaholicism the state religion). They actually rendered the words Sheol(Hebrew) & Hades(Greek) as hell or hellfire. But when directly translated, they both litterally mean the common grave of mankind. No fire & brimstone, no red men with pitchforks, none of that jive! That's atleast one of the reasons "ye old church" specifically would torment & kill anyone that would attempt to translate the Bible into the common language in later centuries, since no one spoke latin anymore. But ofcoarse, people, (despite torture, dismemberment, etc.) continued to work on translating it for everyone to read, for better, or for worse.
Ofcoarse, now church's are shrinking, & to try to keep people coming(so the priests can line their pockets), most church's are not speaking of hell, or judgment, etc. Rather, they are just tickling peoples ears, telling them whatever they want to hear. I've said this before, but, I honestly believe the time is coming soon, when the UN will just straight up put the smack down on religion. Too many wicked things have been done in the name of God, & I think it's gonna come crumbling down, even if people don't expect it. I think it'll be in my lifetime, but, maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joe Redifer on September 08, 2012, 08:52:13 PM
How would the UN put the smack down on religion? I'm not a fan of religion in any way, but I don't think we should take away people's right to believe in whatever stuff they want to believe in.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sunteam_paul on September 08, 2012, 10:09:10 PM
I think I said this before, but either way, I have no idea why that translator rendered the original hebrew as "rape". More litteral translations(which, can be very dry & even harder to read thru) render the original hebrew as "to lay down with/lies down with/lying down" which is just a blanket statement for sex, not rape. Not to mention that it says, if "they" are found out, not "he". So that would make it a consenual act, though I believe more blame is held on the man, rather then the woman.
Fair enough, let's look at some other translations of Deuteronomy 22:
Quote
ASV 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.
Quote
NIV 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Quote
YLT 28 `When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found, 29 then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.
Even putting aside the 'rape/lay hold on her' translation issues, it still claims that - (and remember if the Bible is what believers claim it is then these are the rules set down by the creator of the universe) If a man has sex with an unmarried virgin, he has to pay her father money, marry her and never divorce. From today's perspective, that's plainly a ridiculous law yet it is in the Bible, which is God's word and he is a perfect being who is never wrong. That is the best he could come up with?
Even then, all that was under Mosaic law, before the New Covenant was to be fulfilled, which doesn't apply to anyone today.
The Old Testament is still valid to Jews. Jesus himself said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". This is a good example of the clever/muddled* (delete as applicable) way the Bible is written. For every phrase you can find inferring the Old Testament is not valid, I can find one that claims it is. The whole book is so full of these kind of contradictions that you can basically make it mean anything if you ignore the right parts. Cherry picking what you want to believe from the Bible is essential for any person of a religious persuasion.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on September 08, 2012, 11:04:23 PM
If God says that sex outside the marital arrangement is not according to his purpose, then I don't see why there would be an issue with there being a penalty against a man who fornication with my daughter. I mean, I deffinitely believe sex as being something that's deeply intimate between 2 people who have dedicated their lives to eachother. I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, but it just makes sense to me. I wish I could say I was a "virgin" so to speak when I married my wife. But I wasn't, & it's annoying to think I did it with someone else prior to her, especially now that I've been married for awhile. It feels....wierd, for lack of a better word, that I was ever in that situation with some other chick.
When it comes to a purchase price, I also see no problem with that for the time period & just the general attitude people tended to have. Once a woman lost her virginity, men usually weren't interested in them. That's not God telling them not to be interested, that's men back then & the attitude they tended to have. That's not to say that no one ever married someone who was no longer a virgin, like when Bo'az married Ruth who had lost her husband. There's alot of things it seems like God allowed to happen, taking into account how people tended to be. Like allowing men to marry multiple wives. It was supposed to be just one man & one woman based on his purpose, but atleast for some time after the "original sin" etc. etc., he put up with men having multiple wives. But by the time of the Christian congregation, it was made clear that a man should be the husband of one wife. Might've even been(assuming it happened) for after the flood, to help fill up the population again, by having multiple wives to produce a plethora of kids?
Oh, & on divorce, yeah, that wouldn't fly today. No doubt. People divorce over very minute things these days. In the scriptures, divorce was only allowed if the mate had commited adultry. I have no problem with that. I even have friends who wanted to divorce their mates because they were abusive etc., but they seperated from them, & later the abusive mate changed into a completely different person, & treated them with the utmost respect. Now they're glad they never got divorced. But, people are going to do, what they're going to do.
Yeah, techincally they're supposed to observe the Mosaic law, but they can't. They have neither a temple, nor an ark of the covenant. IIRC, I think they can't even rebuild the temple, since I think that's where the Dome of the Rock is, which is Muslim territory. They could try to build a temple somewhere else I supposed & not be held up on one location, & make sacrifices, etc., but, they haven't thus far that I know of.
Yeah, Jesus did fulfill the law. I usually look at it like 2 different laws, but a bunch of the laws did carry over. They knew there was going to be a new law ahead time along with the Messiah. I don't recall specifically, but it might've been around Jeremiah's time when the prophecy of a new law was supposed to have been written, though, I could be wayyyy off base on that. Also, I find that the Old & New Testaments are valid, they're there for a reason. I don't know what it'd be like, to only have the New Testament, seems like nothing would make sense. Like Jesus sacrifice for "our sins" being forshadowed by the sacrifices in the temple, as well as the sacrifice that Abraham didn't have to do on his own son. To me atleast, it just helps put it all together. And certainly the Israelites & Christians in the Bible needed the scriptures prior to their respective times. Plus, without Genesis & Job, we wouldn't really know why there's suffering, why God allows this or that, why "the Devil" exists & what his goal is, etc. But, I have had some people at the door who only believe in the New Testament, & feel the Old Testament means nothing. That to me, is cherry picking what a person believes or wants to believe.
Ofcoarse, I don't claim to understand it all, by no means. Forever a student I shall be. I've only read thru the Bible back to back once so far. Sure, I've read millions of scriptures at various times, but only once totally in order of how it's presented. I'm a horrible reader, so it takes me forever to get thru any kind of book. So, my learning, in regards to anything in life, is slow to say the least ](*,)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nodtveidt on September 09, 2012, 03:22:44 AM
All of this nonsense is why reasonable people either don't follow that book at all, or pick and choose the comfortable things and ignore the blatant hatred within it.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: RegalSin on September 09, 2012, 09:38:52 AM
I do not know if you all are getting religion, anyways everybody has their fact opinion............whatever.
Just forget about it, all. All followings are made to benefit peoples lives. Mostly people who are of that nation. In India they have over billions, trillions, gazillion dollars worth of gold, rare metals, historical artifacts, and art inside a temple chamber. India right now if they, took all of that stuff, that was donated to Buddhism would never be poor. Guess what? Buddhism was founded on that idea itself, after the prince AKA Buddha, saw how his nation was poor, and in a self destructive manor. If Buddha had not made that move to start his following, then India would probably be another African mine nation, or even South Africa ( Criminal rape capital of the world ).
It is like us with fiction, we need to make our fiction number one and dedicate our lives preventing Hollywood robbing us blind. Making babies is a nice thing but the cost to our way of life is staggering. I know nobody will care, in a million billion, gazillion years. But, It is the "Last Armageddon", dammit and we have to battle in the name of fiction, and the name of our world. Yeah we are the bad guys, just like the nightmares of the windfish, our world is danger. That is a reality.
..........
In western ( European Religion ), Judism, Christanity, and Islam all follow the same god. When you get married, sleep with a woman, or even have make a child with somebody, that person belongs to you, ( meaning they are apart of your world, like the film "The Cell" ). These religions are directed towards men, but women can follow these rules as well.
These three Religion was made for three kinds of people. People who lived in a desert land, with little water, and food. People who were once slaves. People who had no other belief. In Judism they talk about people marrying out of their race. The truth is that Jewish people are racist and want to make their own blood grow. This is why they have certain medical problems because they are inbreeding sometimes. The Christian is a fools religion, it guards a fool. ( the Knight, the Wizard, the trickster ( I learned that from "Eternal Darkness" ), Christians are used to defend the people of Judism. In Jewish religion they have ideas, that Jews do not fight wars. Islam believes that all land that was owned/conguerd by Muslims, is religion grounds.
The biggest problem with western religion is
The Age of exploration - All of those negative jokes, caused many problems.
The post WWII era - People rejected the west and started to love the east.
The internet - People started to research on things that they would ignore.
.............
Here is another problem, Psychology is another region. However people call it a practice of learning. Psychology is for people, while they have had training with god, they look for money, for being among smart people, and for power and control.
The internet is another religion. Think of it like sitting in front of a Shinto Shrine all day long. clapping your hands to the sounds of keys, pledging or praying for something. That is what my terminal looks like. All I need to do is get down and start praying. People let the information world absorb their lives. Considering everything else optional. It has become so strong, it intertwines all aspects of our lives.
law - is a religion based on religion, and is religion for the land, designating the land follows it's following. Like in India, a men can touch, fondle, young women, young girls ( to my understanding ) but they can not kiss them, or have intercourse of any sort. That is why Priya Rai ( Indian model who wants be famous ), makes video of a fan who is blind-folded, and tied down, but never allowed him to actually have any sex with her. This is an example of law and religion mixing.
In the western religious text, they say, you are not a grown person until you have reached the age of thirty. That sounds insane, but that is hidden among the text, their. That is part of the reason why nation standard of adult age is around 16-18-20-26. It is obvious the law makers feel this is lubricious, that is why the law is bent, against the religion.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: esteban on September 09, 2012, 03:49:53 PM
Thank god I'm an atheist.
One of my favorite directors, Luis Bunuel, supposedly said that. Ha! Check out all his Mexican-era films for a treat. I wrote about some of them in threads of yore. You'll find Bunuel's French films more easily (and they're great), but the Mexican stuff kicks ass.
And that's all I have to say about religion, really...
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: RegalSin on September 09, 2012, 05:21:45 PM
Their is no such thing as an atheist.
One time I was playing around, and my friend choked me. All I saw was a white field, similar to something from Starfox. Imagine that stage in StarFox where you fought the monorail robot ( Difficulty medium/easy, Path to the Venom city ). However the path was centered, and I forget how the distant look but maybe the path was above and below me at the same time. The distance was another entrance, also reflecting on the top and bottom. It was pure white, like a blank sheet of paper but something was in the distance. Imagine Mega Drive Cotton, or starfox. I could not feel anything, I did not know what feeling was or is, what sight, sound, or what alive was.
However I remember this feild very clearly. It was beyond me, I was an emotion that was not fear, but the emotion probably has no name.
When I came back, it was like gasping for air after being in water. All my functions returned instantaneously. My freind said I knocked him in the head real hard. ( using the back of my head ).
One day I am going to get christian, ( since people say it does not count when your a baby ). You know my Chinese name, the teacher said I need alot of earth. Don't we all need Earth.
If Atheism, was a real belief. They would halt all projects and begin spice production. Health would the number one issue, and people would spend their lives standing like trees and living in tents, and their would be no violence at all.
If somebody is a real Atheist they will abandon all hope for, any joy asides being alive, to be alive. Dedicate their lives to making people live longer and being youthful.