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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: grimm on June 11, 2012, 12:09:08 PM
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Something just struck me. Im slowly saving up for a Duo-R, and i realized some of these old game consoles have serious issues with some modern LCD, whilst some work well etc..
Are there any know big issues i should be aware of? I know the best way to play these old consoles are with a CRT, but i have sadly no room for both a CRT and a LCD in my flat, so ive chosen to go with LCD, even if its not optimal to some of my old consoles. It works well enough with most, and great with others.
So, are there any known issues, with known manufacturers of LCD screens? I use a lower budget LG LCD, which works well with my NTSC systems, but has issues with my region modded Snes. In Pal mode, using rgb cable, the screen flickers and shows graphical errors. Also my Pal Jaguar will flicker if i use an rgb-cable.
Any input would be great to know. Im completely new to PC engine, and have yet to get my first system.
Thanks and regards,
grimm
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If you get a nice upscaler you can achieve beautiful results, but it'd be cheaper to get a nice CRT...
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Someone else started discussion on this topic two days ago:
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12027.msg231520#msg231520
And it's been discussed a bunch in the past if you do a search.
And both of these threads should be in general discussion or console chat.
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I get what I believe is de-interlacing issues which results in some particularly bad artefacts when in motion. I don't think it's with all games, but of course my first PCE game had to give me those issues. It was Galaxy Fraulein Yuna 2 and these issues are visible already in the opening and can be seen in cutscenes throughout. I have a scaler now that I've started to play around with and I get different results from different de-interlacing modes so that must be it.
It all depends on how well your TV handles these things. Mine seems to have a decent comb filter but doesn't always deliver with the de-interlacing. CRT TVs are the cheapest (and sort of best) way to play old games, but just like you, I'd like to move away from having both a CRT and a LCD, so right now I'm throwing money around hoping to build a decent LCD-setup that will work for all my systems and other things.
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815276027
Found one for around $60, but you also are going to have to get a extra hdmi cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2
Looking at around $70 all together...
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Grimm, whatever you do, don't buy this scaler. (http://www.teknikmagasinet.se/db.pl?template_file=product.html&artnr=190195) It scales alright but most likely your TV won't accept 4:3 through HDMI so the picture will be brutally stretched to 16:9. Hardly ideal, and for that price, you can probably find something better that actually works. Also, it didn't me give any picture for my DUO-R soo....don't. (http://flyingfullforceblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/mini-review-scart-to-hdmi-1080p-scaler/)
This one (http://www.kjell.com/sortiment/dator-kringutrustning/kablar-adaptrar/hdmi/signalomvandlare/scart-till-hdmi-omvandlare-p98662) will probably give the same result as the other one, as it seem to lack any kind of output control.
Anyway, since you said that LG LCD was cheap, using an external comb filter (like a DVD-recorder) for your composite sources and output that to the TV through either s-video or component should improve things. Since you have systems that output RGB through scart you can try one of these (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220698773448?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649). It took about two weeks for it to arrive here after they shipped it.
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If you get a nice upscaler you can achieve beautiful results, but it'd be cheaper to get a nice CRT...
You are correct, but like i stated, there is no room.
Someone else started discussion on this topic two days ago:
http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12027.msg231520#msg231520
And it's been discussed a bunch in the past if you do a search.
And both of these threads should be in general discussion or console chat.
I actually did a search, and nothing came up when i used "compatibility lcd" as a search phrase.
I looked at the thread you linked to, and from what i can gather they talk more about scaling than actual incompatibility.. What im asking is if the consoles have problem WORKING on LCD screens, not how good the picture quality turns out. For example, some, if not all, samsung LCD has problems showing Neo Geo hardware output to begin with.
So i made a new thread, and since it had to do with the PC engine specifically, i put it in the pc engine category. I dont think its a general discussion if it specifically asks about this console. If a moderator disagrees with me, feel free to move the thread.
Anyway, since you said that LG LCD was cheap, using an external comb filter (like a DVD-recorder) for your composite sources and output that to the TV through either s-video or component should improve things. Since you have systems that output RGB through scart you can try one of these (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220698773448?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649). It took about two weeks for it to arrive here after they shipped it.
Ill look into it, but so far ive been satisfied enough with my tv's internal upscaler. Thanks
That said. Thanks for the responses guys, but i wasnt really asking about upscaling or upscaling devices, but literally of compatibility issues.
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Keep in mind they forced flatscreens on to us. If it can't play duck hunt, and show composite, or RF in all of it's glory, then it is not worth it. My television, shows RF, and composite with nice crisp picture, especially now withouth the many analog channels not being used.
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With so many versions of so many consoles and so many TVs the "compatibility" matrix would be f*cking enormous. I can only tell you exactly which model of TV works with which system based on my personal experience, and the chances of you owning that combination are very small since most TVs are on the market for only a year or two.
If you are thinking that such and such a brand is going to be routinely compatible/incompatible with certain systems...it doesn't work that way.
All you can do is try.
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CRT is superior to lcd with the old systems, but for me its just not an option. I don't have the space for one of a decent size, nor can i afford the electric bill. I have an RGb modded duo-r using a scaler on my 32" lcd and honestly i think it looks great. Purists might choke at the thought, but for me its the only viable option, and it works.
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CRT is superior to lcd with the old systems, but for me its just not an option. I don't have the space for one of a decent size, nor can i afford the electric bill.
Power consumption on a CRT isn't always as bad as you might think.
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CRT power usage varies greatly.
most are not that high (trinatron is the exception they are power hungry)
the main issue with LCD tv's on older systems is the older system run 240p at 60 frames a sec
NTSC standard is 480i at 30 FPS, thus 240p 60 is not supported.
find a display that supports 240p 60 and no scaler needed.
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My samsunng 32inch le32 without a scaler works pretty dame good and no lag.
Tho if you got a megadrive you will have to mod it to get most games running but it dont fixed everything despite what some sites say.
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Well I'm not sure what one considers an "expensive power bill" but I browse the net on a pro-level iiyama crt computer monitor and play on X68k on my Sharp CRT monitor from 91 right next to it almost every day. My power bill has never been over $35.....
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here in Cali power bills typically run over $100, often several
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Sounds like California. Living in a country smaller then that one state alone helps I'm sure. :)
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I don't think its possible to get a $35 power bill in the US. The service fees and shit alone are almost that.
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I've got mine down to $35/mo in the spring and summer here in Minnesota. I switched my bulbs over to LEDs/CFLs, started using my laptop instead of my desktop, and hang-dry most of my clothes rather than using the electric dryer (keeps 'em black). Needless to say, we barely ever turn on the AC.
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I didn't mean to open up a can of worms on the power thing. The point i meant to make was i did not need one more thing contributing to the power bill on top of everything else we have going on. i was just to lazy at the time to explain. everyone's power bill varies depending on how many people, what you got running, what state you live in etc..........dont think that because you have a $35 dollar bill does not mean i should to :)
The amount of power a crt uses does vary greatly. the last one i owned was a heat factory and kept my air conditioner running constantly in our relativly small place. Lcd fixed the problem.
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Just for the hell of it I just measured the actual power consumption of two Sony TV's I have. One is an 32" LCD, one is a 34" CRT. Both have all sorts of HD circuitry in them. The LCD certainly has a "light and airy" feel to it wheras the CRT is 200lbs and puts out heat for sure.
KD-34XBR960 CRT: 105W
KDL-32XBR6 LCD: 89W
So...16W. Nothing to write home about. Keep in mind this CRT set is, more or less, as monstrous and feature laden as any CRT you are going to find.
For the fun of it I also measured the power consumption of the 19" CRT I have out on the porch that I only use for watching CED.
Shitty old CRT: 50W.
Power consumption is a huge deal these days. Everything is amazingly efficient. This Macbook I'm typing on only has a 60W power supply! That's like...an entire computer, so when you are playing Starcraft and burning a DVD and charging the battery with the screen and keyboard lit to full brightness it still isn't going to use more than 60W.
What pisses me off is my Comcast cable box. The power supply for that thing uses 14W, the same as a PCE Duo (more, really since the PCE only uses that much when the drive is seeking) all by itself, even with the cable box not attached to it. This is easily fixed since any modern PSU will use zero when not in use but...you know, f*ck Comcast. When you think of how many millions of subscribers they have, all using 14W per TV in their house 24/7...a$$holes.
Where I work we are helping to develop a slightly (and I mean slightly) different version of a very common mainstream road car engine. The OEM is kicking in a couple million to develop this version just to save increase efficiency by (hopefully) %3. The entire savings, greenhouse gas-wise, from this program won't even touch what Comcast is wantonly pissing away just because they didn't want to pay $0.01 more for a PSU with a switch in it.
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With so many versions of so many consoles and so many TVs the "compatibility" matrix would be f*cking enormous. I can only tell you exactly which model of TV works with which system based on my personal experience, and the chances of you owning that combination are very small since most TVs are on the market for only a year or two.
If you are thinking that such and such a brand is going to be routinely compatible/incompatible with certain systems...it doesn't work that way.
All you can do is try.
I was looking for if there was some well known compatibility issue. Not every single little thing that might happen. Like the Samsung/Neo Geo issues. Naturally i too realize people cant very well list every little compatibility issue on every single tv screen out there. Again, sometimes there are known big issues with known hardware. I was asking for any of those scenarios.
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the comcast issue is 2 fold
its a crap supply
its an always on system (for subscription management reasons)
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With so many versions of so many consoles and so many TVs the "compatibility" matrix would be f*cking enormous. I can only tell you exactly which model of TV works with which system based on my personal experience, and the chances of you owning that combination are very small since most TVs are on the market for only a year or two.
Even better - some models have multiple chassis revisions within the same year of production.
For the fun of it I also measured the power consumption of the 19" CRT I have out on the porch that I only use for watching CED.
Awesome.
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Sounds like California. Living in a country smaller then that one state alone helps I'm sure. :)
What ELSE do you do in your house besides use two piddly, barely power-eating monitors?
I bet if I ran all my stuff I run daily in your Japanhouse, you'd have blown fuses or a huge ass power bill.
That is assuming I can fit all my stuff in your house.
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lol
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This is one of the most odd derailings ive seen of a thread so far...
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Edit: I'm taking this hardware discussion to some other place, carry on.
I'm borrowing this thread for a bit.
I just picked up another DVD recorder and ran my Duo through it, letting it output the image as progressive. I used Galaxy Fraulein 2 as a test disc (since that is my most problematic game and only likes to work on CRT TVs and one of my scaler's two game modes). It actually performed pretty well, with proper flicker where appropriate and no artefacts in an especially taxing scene with a big green laser beam and explosions (my Bravia LCD hates this part).
However, the image is somewhat shaky. Game mode 1 on my scaler yields about the same result. Could this be a sync issue of some kind? I maybe ought to take this to the hardware section but since we had a thread here about PCE & LCD issues, I thought I'd ask.
My test setup goes like this:
Duo-R (composite out) -> Panasonic DMR-E65 DVD Recorder (component progressive) -> DVDO VP30 with ABT102 card (HDMI) -> LCD TV
The reason why I wanted to run my PCE through a DVD recorder is because the comb filter in the scaler isn't all that good.
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CRT is superior to lcd with the old systems,
CRT is the standard, that all videogames should display on. If a videogame system is unable to run on a CRT and look great, then they screwed up somehow. I think a person from India, did a comparison with a 360 and a regular television, and found the graphics to be no differnt then a PS2.
The flat fact is that nobody would care if flatscreens never became popular and was forced on us. All of you are probably looking at -500 stuff that is more then 50 inches high. Thinking "hey I can afford it". Well I think to myself, in the stupid future world, where idiots have PID inside their hands, they will be watching televisions on their wrist watches.
I remember the good days, when a television, was based on hardware support. I remember being in the stores, and browsing. They even had that television that was in Baret's bar from FF7 ( a curved, projector type??? ). The biggest ones had scale lines like no tommorow but they also had bigger ones with no scale lines. Honestly, we had a system that was perfect. If you had the extra 50,000 then you could buy a flatscreen bigger then an entire wall, otherwise you got a 60 incher, where you could watch five inch television.
Videogames where never meant to be played on the worlds biggest television, or anything other mumbo jumbo. They are meant for RF, composite, and if your special then RGB. The PCE with CD unit all have regular composite, and that is that.
Also, at one time I had a really bad CRT, but it showed a big picture, but it was kinda blurry, up close. I had replaced that with a 20 " CRT, and the picture was sharp. Remember they would have an ultimate gaming television, equip with sound for -200 dollars? That thing was like a 10 " joke, a prick of a television. If the people who sell games felt that we the consumers were so stupid, then it should not really matter.
Then only people buying flatscreens are the ones who have uppity freinds, who thinks if a, born five minutes ago, piece of crap is wraped up, with a bow tie then it must be worth an entire months pay.
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Most people are extremely happy with LCD. They like being able to relocate the set from one side of the room to the other without having to hire piano movers. TVs in general are also much less expensive than they used to be. My grandparents payed $600 for a 26" in 1979...you could buy a new Oldsmobile for $6000 back then so $600 was a lot of cash.
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well said zeta.
but in this case i think the best point is that the lcd sets are not as good for fast action, and replaed working CRT sets more often then not
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Yeah, the earliest wave of LCDs were total f*cking garbage, especially the affordable ones.
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replacing a $200 set that is good for 20 years with a $1500 set thats good for 2
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That sounds remarkably like my inlaws plasma. cost a fortune, puts out tons of heat, has slow refresh, games look like ass. Its really big though and has nifty high def
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Most people are extremely happy with LCD. They like being able to relocate the set from one side of the room to the other without having to hire piano movers.
I just wanted to point out, that the forced us to buy the flatscreens, it was even on the news. They pretty much marketed digital, and convinced us to switch. Like with Paypal, when they updated, and forced us to sign something that affected our rights.
Think of it, as being in the invisible union ( unlike the army of the employed ), everybody is a member. We are united by the choices we make. Flatscreens was not one of them. If a person is unable to hold the responsibilities of handling heavy objects, they should not.
Like how the women out number us, and the Asians, are becoming popular ( not because of videogames, and comic books ), we as men, normal English speaking men are becoming a dying breed.
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the flat screens were not forced upon me, i still run more CRT then other, except for pc monitors
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Try to read regal's posts in the voice of gary busey...........
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lol
he is mostly right, just not completely
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I'm a big RegalSin fan, but I don't think he's right at all in this case. Stores stopped selling CRTs because nobody wanted them. My 80 year old grandmother who has ZERO interest in technology (no internet, corded phone; 15 year old car) was thrilled to have an LCD because of how much space it saved. Sony in particular was dragged into the flat panel scene kicking and screaming.
It's true that analog TV transmission has ended, but this was done to make room in the spectrum for the 5 billion cellular devices we'll eventually have. Also, my 2005 CRT does pick up digital TV so that has nothing to do with it.
These days the cost of a piece of electronics in the US is determined largely by how many will fit in a standard shipping container from China. CRTs take up 10x as much space and if both CRTs and flat panels were onthe market today the cost difference alone would make them extremely unpopular, as would convergence issues and their huge weight...the first thing in the owners manual for my 34", no joke, is a chapter on how to make sure your toddler doesn't die from tipping the TV on top of themselves.
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well zeta, there is another reason.
the NIMBY environmentalists did ban the production of new CRT's in america.
that alone makes the china thing our fault.
the digi sig was mandated for wireless device expansion (more $$$$ for selling bandwidth)
i run old CRT sets, but couldnt buy one if i wanted to new.
where RegalSin's argument fails is nobody forced anyone to get rid of their CRT sets.
they just changed the TV signals to something less than usefull on most.
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When did production of CRTs in the US end, like 1982? Well before they ceased to be available. Well before large flat panel TVs were anything but scifi. I know eventually (maybe around the same time) Zenith became the only American company selling TVs, but they had all their production outside of the country anyway so I'm not sure that any effect on anything.
Also, there probably was a less destructive way to make CRTs that would work with US environmental laws, but rather than pursue it its a lot easier to just blame the government for putting you out of business. There are just as many "NIMBY" people in Japan as there are here and they were making CRTs in Japan by the boatload, quite profitably, until the mid 2000s.
How many video game consoles were being made in the US after the 2600? Any? Jag? How many good ones? None, for sure. The last home video machines to be made in the US were CED players, and that ended in 1984. No Laserdisc player was ever manufactured in the US even though the shit was invented here (before Pioneer owned the market, MCA contracted the production of players to Pioneer from the beginning) and the only American VCR company I can think of is GoVideo, and I'm not sure they actually built the things here either.
Yet somehow CRT production was killed by an overreaching environmental law? That seems pretty unlikely.
If you look on CL right now for the higher end CRTs, if they give any reason for getting rid of the set its almost always "its too f*cking big". Once people get used to flat panels that they could carry around on a bicycle the CRTs that require truck rental start to look...f*cking stupid, honestly. If they aren't into retro electronics they are just hauling around a giant fragile piece of glass with inferior picture for no reason. It makes sense to stay CRT for us wierdos, but its all negatives and no plusses for your average dude and that's why the stuff is gone.
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I have a friend with a generic Durabrand 32 inch LCD TV from walmart. Looks great when running a Turbo grafx through composite on it. So it is basically hit or miss if a LCD or plasma will display composite well or not.
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Keith, i agree. I run dos games on a 17" lcd and they look fine. On my 30" lcd they look like crap. Even then though, size of the lcd is not always the determining factor. Some just look way better than others.
Us laws do have a large part to do with it. I'm not gonna break out the bango for the long list of things affected, but here are a few:
batteries (must contain less than one percent of mercury)
lightbulbs (incandescent lightbulbs are to be phased out by 2016)
cars (must be 35mpg or higher by 2020)
anything that has to be ROHS compliant (all electronics, cannot have any lead, mercury, cadnium, chromate, etc..)
etc.........
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Us laws do have a large part to do with it.
To do with what? What specific US laws killed CRT production in the US? You brought it up. Is there a point to this or are you just griping about the fact that environmental laws exist? Personally, I like not having lead in my drinking water and the ocean at my back door.
cars (must be 35mpg or higher by 2020)
Heh, no. Such a law would ban not only every Ferrari, but also America's best selling piece of shit, the F-150. The new EPA rules say that OEMs must raise their Corporate Average Fuel Economy, and for the first time they are including light trucks in the number, which they f*cking should because they are all anyone buys anymore. Currently its 30.2 for cars and 24.1 for light trucks. This is a average meaning that as long as Toyota sells a 45MPG Yaris for every 15MPG Sienna they meet the 30.2 with ease. Ford offsets the horrible fuel economy of an F-150 by selling a Focus. Ferrari offsets the wastage of a V12 supercar by selling a Fiat 500. There are also all sorts of other cheap tricks to get around the numbers, such as credits for biofuels and hybrid technologies, even if they don't do anything (in the case of GM's pathetic idle stop system in pickups years back, or the horrific load of bullshit that is E85).
Anyway, its 35.5 by 2016, 54.5 by 2025. While many people complain that is an impossible number, the same people said the same thing for the 1978 model year when the average requirement for cars was 18...which is worse than almost every car sold today with the exception of a few limos and supercars.
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I have zero issue with environmental laws and made no statement as such. Your flying off the handle and just ranting to rant. Don't be so naive to assume that somebody made a law that says "you can't make crts anymore", or something to that effect. If your looking for an specific example, of course i can't give one. Also, i said the laws do have something to do with it, I did not say it was the only reason, Your assuming way to much so take it down a notch. Laws that regulate hazardous materials in manufacturing as well as recycling have a huge impact on everything produced even if they are not made in this country. I was involved with manufacturing for 10 years and as of 2006 for example, supposedly all electronics (as well as many other things) coming into this country had to be ROHS compliant. IF they were not, they could not be sold, Period. In our factory we made heatsinks for damn near everything. We had computer contracts, military contracts, etc. The cost of switching manufacturing to non hazardous materials was expensive for almost everyone. Eventually we were forced to downsize due to loss in sales, as our customers had to change the nature of there business to more efficient and cost effective means of manufacturing. Do i know for a fact that these changes stopped the production of crt's, No, Can you bet it had a huge impact, your delusional if you think it didn't.
you got me on the car thing, I did not mean to make it a blanket statement covering all cars. It was meant to be a guidline as to how "laws" effect manufacturing and selling of products in the united states, countering your point that they do not. I appreciate the lesson on the cars, but you more or less made my point for me. Now if you don't mind, I try to keep things civil so its not necessary to take things so personal because people disagree with you.
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So, to clarify, you are saying that a "huge" portion of why most CRT TV production moved to Japan in the 70s and 80s was environmental regulation, correct?
I'm not talking about Xboxes melting their lead-free solder joints apart in 2009, I'm talking about CRTs 25 years ago.
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Well then i owe you an apology. I thought you were arguing why crt's were eventually replaced in the market in general and not just why crt's picked up shop and left 25 years ago. I have no idea what happened 25 years ago. For all i know it was a cost prohibitive measure.
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I use a sony trinitron with my rgb pc engine duo and it looks so much better than any lcd or normal crt
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I use a sony trinitron with my rgb pc engine duo and it looks so much better than any lcd or normal crt
Ditto. Avoid digital TVs at all cost for older game systems like the PC-Engine.