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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: RyuHayabusa on July 11, 2012, 11:34:50 PM
Title: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 11, 2012, 11:34:50 PM
Ok, we've all seen games that were ported from the arcade or other consoles and have been disappointed. For instance, Space Harrier for the PCE plays great but the lack of the checkboard ground and small player sprite are a bit disappointing. Or Strider, which plays nicely and has an awesome soundtrack but the colors aren't so hot. Seeing these examples and others, I can't help but think that they could be improved on. I've seen Chris Covell's Axelay demo for the SGX and was blown away. In a recent issue of Retro Gamer, someone ported Space Harrier to the Atari 2600 and it was quite amazing considering the hardware. Has anyone tried to take an existing game and improve them, or perhaps tried to port a game to the PCE that was never made before? For instance, alter the code in Space Harrier to give it the checkerboard look? Or perhaps take some sprites from Final Fight and see if the PCE could handle them moving on screen? I've seen where some homebrew developers have been able to learn new tricks to push the limits of various platforms beyond what was originally thought possible. The holy grail to me would be a homebrew port of Strider for the SGX to show what really could have been done.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 12, 2012, 12:06:33 AM
Well, I thought about that, and I don't think it's possible to get the checkerboard effect in Space Harrier.
And Yes, moar SGX. Final Fight still wouldn't be possible, not arcade perfect, even on the SGX. Because of the large minimum sprite size, the weapons like knives would take up a lot of sprite resource, and the characters are just too large. You could make an interesting conversion though, seeing as crest of Wolf gets away with 4 sprites, that means without weapons the SGX could have 8 at once. But I think 2 player makes Final Fight.
I've seen Chris Covell's Axelay demo for the SGX and was blown away.
LINK PLS O___O
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 12, 2012, 01:19:32 AM
Most games would be too much work to hack and might as well be replaced by entirely new from-scratch versions. Some may or may not be in the works.
There is a thread about changing the colors in Strider. That is something that is actually possible and examples are shown. The game has some decent shading, it looks like the palettes might have been implemented incorrectly. But changing the colors won't fix such a broken port, which doesn't even scroll properly.
There is another thread in which Tomatheus shows mockups of how the PCE could do SoR sprites for a beat 'em up with quite a few enemies at once. You don't really need a tech demo to prove that the PCE could handle something like Final Fight though, there are enough PCE games that move around more than enough sprites to do it.
I don't think that there is enough interest in Space Harrier to re-do it. Most people seem to already prefer it to Space Harrier 2. Even the X68000 version uses the same style floor as the PCE version.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 12, 2012, 01:37:14 AM
Oh my god. Chris is a genius! That's jawdropping, make the whole game! Make the whole game!
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 12, 2012, 04:06:46 AM
Oh my god. Chris is a genius! That's jawdropping, make the whole game! Make the whole game!
Yeah, I thought it was awesome too. I asked him if he had considered doing an SGX Strider demo but he said he was working on more interesting things. That was a long time ago.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 12, 2012, 04:23:52 AM
Oh my god. Chris is a genius! That's jawdropping, make the whole game! Make the whole game!
Yeah, I thought it was awesome too. I asked him if he had considered doing an SGX Strider demo but he said he was working on more interesting things. That was a long time ago.
MORE INTERESTING?! I'm practically salivating
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Arkhan on July 12, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
We ported Berzerk
but like, it was made from scratch, so I guess it's a remake, not a port...
yeah!
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: sunteam_paul on July 12, 2012, 06:09:38 AM
lol, why in the name of the devil would the pce not be able to handle the checker board? something even far more inferior systems could handle.
I just couldn't figure out how it would be done I guess. Didn't think of colour cycling.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RegalSin on July 12, 2012, 09:35:47 AM
Porting is a good idea. In fact, I wish I could start my own game company, and we could port X games. However considering that, porting a game to outdo it's original is also a cool idea, but it is a task that is also unloved and unliked.
Would I want to improve something, that has been released before? Honestly I am not that much of a videogame person, to say yes to that. Yes I wonder if some of the many SNES games would look on a PCE, I bet half the entire library could probably fit on hu-cards, and still look good. Then another half could also be enhanced thanks to wonder amount of space the Hu-memory card provides.
It is a great idea, and I love it.
.........
Strider. Strider was already considered a fail for the PCE, I understand why people would want a direct port of that game, but otherwise I think Strider did pretty good , looking back at the game, Strider was never really all of that :-#
Strider like many ultimate JRPG, type games was over the top, and took advantage ofbeing something that was never done before, or was not done so often. Strider is like saying, hey if we can get this game on the PCE, who knows what else we can get on it.
..........
I really do not understand why would anybody want to out do a game that has been ported to almost every single game console, on purpose Their is even one in Shenmue, and the 32X. After the 32X Space Harrier is beyond insane.
Splatterhouse II and III?
That would be a great game for everybody here to work on. We all get various jobs, and tasks, and rotate tasks???
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: ccovell on July 12, 2012, 02:07:55 PM
lol, why in the name of the devil would the pce not be able to handle the checker board? something even far more inferior systems could handle.
Look at it this way: PCE Space Harrier needs lots of its video RAM for multiple sizes of sprites, bullets, trees, etc. There may not be enough space for a checkerboard floor. With the way the game does it now, it just changes colours on different scanlines, which uses no VRAM at all. With a checkerboard, you'd need a large (256x128 or so) triangular-floor-shaped background and all the tiles to go along with it. It is not simply a matter of doing scanline effects (that makes for horizontal stripes only, as Space Harrier PCE already does.)
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Tatsujin on July 12, 2012, 03:06:40 PM
Wow, thanx for the detailed explanation. So it really seems that such a simple looking checkerboard, would need quite more than one would first assume.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 13, 2012, 12:14:44 AM
lol, why in the name of the devil would the pce not be able to handle the checker board? something even far more inferior systems could handle.
Look at it this way: PCE Space Harrier needs lots of its video RAM for multiple sizes of sprites, bullets, trees, etc. There may not be enough space for a checkerboard floor. With the way the game does it now, it just changes colours on different scanlines, which uses no VRAM at all. With a checkerboard, you'd need a large (256x128 or so) triangular-floor-shaped background and all the tiles to go along with it. It is not simply a matter of doing scanline effects (that makes for horizontal stripes only, as Space Harrier PCE already does.)
No doubt that you know more about hardware than I do, but doesn't the PC Engine have the same amount of VRAM as the Mega Drive, 64kb?
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: ccovell on July 13, 2012, 02:56:04 AM
Yes, but the Mega Drive can do BG tile flipping (meaning more tile efficiency in RAM), and the PCE can't. The PCE could indeed have a checkered floor, but at the cost of fewer frames for the enemy scaling, etc. Which I bet the MD version has -- Space Harrier II was a bit choppy animation-wise.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: spenoza on July 13, 2012, 06:02:36 AM
As much as I love the PCE, and as much as I'm sure the design made a great deal of sense back when it was designed, technically and financially, I can't help but feel as if the entire system suffers from a preponderance of missed opportunities, so many of them minor.
An extra background layer, more CPU work RAM, lack of BG tile flipping, even an additional audio channel or two or a separate sound CPU to take some of the load off the main CPU. And yet, compared to its contemporaries, it was a much more robust design. Technology was, as it is now, changing rapidly, so there's no way of prognosticating what effect even the most minor of changes would have had on system cost or longevity.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Arkhan on July 13, 2012, 06:17:30 AM
It doesn't need any extra audio channels. That's crazy talk. 6 is plenty.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: spenoza on July 13, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
It doesn't need any extra audio channels. That's crazy talk. 6 is plenty.
Who said anything about need? Hell, look at the NES. 4 is enough. That doesn't mean more aren't useful.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Arkhan on July 13, 2012, 06:47:23 AM
You made it sound like it was a missed opportunity. That kind of implies that its something they really should have dove for. I don't think an extra channel or two would have done much, really.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 13, 2012, 07:30:17 AM
Every console has seemingly "missed opportunities" in design/ support. I can't think of any console which doesn't have people saying "if only" they'd done this or that.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: spenoza on July 13, 2012, 09:47:01 AM
Every console has seemingly "missed opportunities" in design/ support. I can't think of any console which doesn't have people saying "if only" they'd done this or that.
What it ultimately comes down to is, how low-hanging was the fruit of that missed opportunity? What would have been the short term financial costs vs the long term opportunity costs for those adjustments? The work RAM one just kills me.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Tatsujin on July 13, 2012, 02:19:01 PM
As much as I love the PCE, and as much as I'm sure the design made a great deal of sense back when it was designed, technically and financially, I can't help but feel as if the entire system suffers from a preponderance of missed opportunities, so many of them minor.
An extra background layer, more CPU work RAM, lack of BG tile flipping, even an additional audio channel or two or a separate sound CPU to take some of the load off the main CPU. And yet, compared to its contemporaries, it was a much more robust design. Technology was, as it is now, changing rapidly, so there's no way of prognosticating what effect even the most minor of changes would have had on system cost or longevity.
And the SNES could have used a faster CPU, and more Sound chip RAM. And the Genesis could have used more color palettes for more total colors on screen (4 color palettes for everything on screen was pathetic compared to SNES and PC-Engine) as well as maybe a more featured YM chip. So sure the PCE could have used things that came along in the SuperGrafx like a second background layer and much more RAM. But when making these systems they couldn't have everything and ofcourse didn't have a crystal ball. Though we will all probably hold them accountable for a few bits that we think should have been no brainer decisions.
Personally I hold it against Sega for the really stupid 4 color palettes for 64 total colors. It seems like a pretty inexpensive and extremely important thing to add another set of 4. My suggestion has always been for minimal reworking, just have sprites and background have their own four 16 color palettes for a total of 128 colors. It wouldn't have been too much more memory or logic to implement and doubling the amount of colors could have really helped in alot of games. Mortal Kombat is always a good example. With only 4 different color palettes and two of them being assigned to each fighter, you have only 32 colors for everything else, HUD and background as well as blood sprites. Projectiles will use their fighter's colors which looks odd particularly Cage's green force ball ending up a weird gray blob.
It might actually have been best atleast in this fighting game's case to have 8 color palettes for sprites. It may have cost a bit more than the improvement would be worth though. But I'd stay by the initial improvement of giving sprites and backgrounds separate color palettes. Having half of the SNES's color palette count available certainly would have been better than a quarter.
The main thing the PC-Engine seems to lack, I guess it would be handy if it had that 2nd background layer. But when you see games like Lords of Thunder that give that amazing illusion it's hard to really be too mad at them. Though clearly if they'd had a real second layer it would have helped. I'd read somewhere that the PCE basically could either have had VRAM access anytime or a second BG layer and they went with VRAM access anytime. If that's true I think they made the wrong choice as having to abide by typical vblank/vram access rules isn't a huge deal as compared to the benefit of having a second background layer.
The SuperGrafx atleast showed us a bit of what could have been. But the SGX suffered from the PCE's success I think.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 14, 2012, 01:28:57 AM
Has anyone seen this SGX Strider demo before? This guy claims to have made a Strider demo with a sprite and background ripped from the arcade running at near arcade resolution. Unfortunately it was posted in 2007 and the link and pics no longer work.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 14, 2012, 10:45:06 PM
awww! someone must have it!
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 16, 2012, 02:24:19 AM
Now that I think about it, I do recall seeing a pic of it. It was the Strider Hiryu sprite on the first stage sky background, with the lights and stuff. The building and floor that he walks on was not present. I wish someone would continue work on it. Honestly, I think SGX Ghouls N Ghosts could've been improved. For instance, The color of Arthur's face is way too white, not flesh tone like the arcade. Also, it looks like they got lazy with some of the distant background stuff in the beginning of the first stage, plus the little wooden fence thing at the very beginning is missing. Maybe even 8 megs wasn't enough to put in all that detail, who knows. I noticed they cut some corners like where the roots are on the side of the hill right before you fight Shielder, the first level boss. In the arcade there are two distinct designs for the roots but in the SGX version, there's only one and all they did was flip the image in one of the spots to make them look different. I'm a stickler for detail. Still a great port though.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: esteban on July 18, 2012, 09:07:05 AM
To get back to the heart of this thread: What games are the candidates most in need of "tweaking"?
I wouldn't consider Space Harrier as strong a candidate as something like Impossamole, where the (coldet) collision detection needs some finessing. Or Order of the Griffon, where the music cuts out prematurely at the onset of each melee (battle).
Sadly, Ballistix can never be "fixed" because it is fundamentally a lame game.
No, I'm lying. I would love Space Harrier to be tweaked (if only to include OUI OUI JUMBO as a playable character).
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: sunteam_paul on July 18, 2012, 09:16:15 AM
Shinobi could do with a bigger card to really bring it up to the quality it should have been.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 18, 2012, 02:31:37 PM
To get back to the heart of this thread: What games are the candidates most in need of "tweaking"?
I wouldn't consider Space Harrier as strong a candidate as something like Impossamole, where the (coldet) collision detection needs some finessing. Or Order of the Griffon, where the music cuts out prematurely at the onset of each melee (battle).
Sadly, Ballistix can never be "fixed" because it is fundamentally a lame game.
No, I'm lying. I would love Space Harrier to be tweaked (if only to include OUI OUI JUMBO as a playable character).
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Altered Beast had its controls tweaked by Tom.
Strider and Golden Axe would benefit most from 60fps scrolling.
Backup saving being implemented for games that only support passwords.
Shapeshifter would be easier for some people to get into if the controls were tweaked.
Bonk's spin in Revenge and Big Adventure could be tweaked back to Adventure-style.
Regional differences could be merged, so that the titles such as the Bonk games use the original graphics.
Tom proved how well the PCE handles extreme speed boosts in SFII'. A balanced boost to the factors that would result in the equivalent of Turbo speeds for the game would be cool. Even if you have to load a different rom for a different speed.
Infinite or increased credits for arcade ports would broaden the appeal of many games.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 18, 2012, 03:17:55 PM
Shinobi could do with a bigger card to really bring it up to the quality it should have been.
Definitely. Add in the missing stages, the close-up attacks, and maybe fix the colors a bit. They're a little too dark. It's already a good port but could've been even better.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Tatsujin on July 18, 2012, 04:27:20 PM
Yeah, a "complete" shinobi would have been the ubergreat. It would have been instantly one of the best hueys released.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: spenoza on July 18, 2012, 06:16:12 PM
OK, I've been searching around for the thread that mentions Tom's tweaks to the Altered Beast controls and I can't find it. I want to look into it, now that I have gameofyou's flash HuCard.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 18, 2012, 10:01:06 PM
Shinobi could do with a bigger card to really bring it up to the quality it should have been.
Yeah, it's missing an entire level and powerups. That said, I do like the game, it's quite faithful otherwise.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 19, 2012, 04:38:21 AM
Such a major overhaul of Shinobi wouldn't be worth a tack-on for the HuCard version. It would be better to just do a pixel-for-pixel port of the arcade, ideally on CD.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 19, 2012, 04:43:58 AM
Such a major overhaul of Shinobi wouldn't be worth a tack-on for the HuCard version. It would be better to just do a pixel-for-pixel port of the arcade, ideally on CD.
NOOOOO!1! I want HuCards. I don't want loading times, I want Shinobi NAO
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: SamIAm on July 19, 2012, 08:37:09 AM
Maybe the most interesting question is: Are there any games that could be vastly improved by simply altering a very small number of bytes in the ROM/CD image? You know, like a game genie code would do.
The amount of effort it takes to pull off improvements rises exponentially with the complexity of the task, and some of the tasks mentioned so far are very, very complex. I'm not saying don't dream, but something is waaaay more likely to materialize if a lot of people get behind something very simple.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Necromancer on July 19, 2012, 08:44:42 AM
Maybe the most interesting question is: Are there any games that could be vastly improved by simply altering a very small number of bytes in the ROM/CD image?
I don't know about a 'vast' improvement, but it'd be a lot easier to unlock all the bosses in Godzilla if the points needed or points awarded were adjusted. I wanna pick from all of 'em in vs. mode, dang it!
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 19, 2012, 09:10:57 AM
Such a major overhaul of Shinobi wouldn't be worth a tack-on for the HuCard version. It would be better to just do a pixel-for-pixel port of the arcade, ideally on CD.
NOOOOO!1! I want HuCards. I don't want loading times, I want Shinobi NAO
A full no-cuts "arcade perfect" PCE port of Shinobi would fit within a single load space of an Arcade Card CD.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: RyuHayabusa on July 20, 2012, 10:25:12 AM
Of course, perhaps the number one candidate for being improved has to be Golden Axe. What a lump of shit. The Master System port looks considerably better so surely it could be improved dramatically. I'd love to see someone program a demo just with some character sprites and a background to show what could've been done had Renovation not been drinking too much sake during development.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: esteban on July 20, 2012, 04:37:30 PM
To get back to the heart of this thread: What games are the candidates most in need of "tweaking"?
I wouldn't consider Space Harrier as strong a candidate as something like Impossamole, where the (coldet) collision detection needs some finessing. Or Order of the Griffon, where the music cuts out prematurely at the onset of each melee (battle).
Sadly, Ballistix can never be "fixed" because it is fundamentally a lame game.
No, I'm lying. I would love Space Harrier to be tweaked (if only to include OUI OUI JUMBO as a playable character).
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Altered Beast had its controls tweaked by Tom.
Strider and Golden Axe would benefit most from 60fps scrolling.
Backup saving being implemented for games that only support passwords.
Shapeshifter would be easier for some people to get into if the controls were tweaked.
Bonk's spin in Revenge and Big Adventure could be tweaked back to Adventure-style.
Regional differences could be merged, so that the titles such as the Bonk games use the original graphics.
Tom proved how well the PCE handles extreme speed boosts in SFII'. A balanced boost to the factors that would result in the equivalent of Turbo speeds for the game would be cool. Even if you have to load a different rom for a different speed.
Infinite or increased credits for arcade ports would broaden the appeal of many games.
I hear you, brother. I hear you. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: MottZilla on July 21, 2012, 06:20:31 AM
Maybe the most interesting question is: Are there any games that could be vastly improved by simply altering a very small number of bytes in the ROM/CD image? You know, like a game genie code would do.
The amount of effort it takes to pull off improvements rises exponentially with the complexity of the task, and some of the tasks mentioned so far are very, very complex. I'm not saying don't dream, but something is waaaay more likely to materialize if a lot of people get behind something very simple.
Simple things like better looking palettes or infinite continues or other stat adjustments certainly could be done. People do such things to games on other platforms like NES. Adjustments to fix bugs or unfair elements. PCE is no different. Though what I'd like to see for PCE is a translation of Langrisser.
Title: Re: Could disappointing ports be improved upon now?
Post by: soop on July 22, 2012, 11:47:04 PM
Of course, perhaps the number one candidate for being improved has to be Golden Axe. What a lump of shit. The Master System port looks considerably better so surely it could be improved dramatically. I'd love to see someone program a demo just with some character sprites and a background to show what could've been done had Renovation not been drinking too much sake during development.
that's not really a tweak though - you'd have to completely rewrite it from the ground up