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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: KnightWarrior on August 21, 2012, 06:43:05 PM
Title: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on August 21, 2012, 06:43:05 PM
I know it is a PC Engine Game
I just wanna know, Why did NEC didn't release this game in the US??
Was it because of Pour Sales?? The Name, What??
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 21, 2012, 07:57:36 PM
A multitude of factors:
It was expensive to produce (physically) and was expensive to license. Japanese cost was %20-30 more than the SFs on SFC and MD.
It was only relevant for about a month before Turbo hit SNES/Gen.
By the time this game came out it was TTI's decision, and they probably decided that releasing Dungeon Explorer II, Riot Zone, Lords of Thunder, and Bomberman 93' and other in-house games were much more worth their investment, and I agree.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 21, 2012, 11:58:16 PM
It was expensive to produce (physically) and was expensive to license. Japanese cost was %20-30 more than the SFs on SFC and MD.
It was only relevant for about a month before Turbo hit SNES/Gen.
By the time this game came out it was TTI's decision, and they probably decided that releasing Dungeon Explorer II, Riot Zone, Lords of Thunder, and Bomberman 93' and other in-house games were much more worth their investment, and I agree.
There was also a huge risk of inventory cost in bringing in six button controllers. Though the game is playable with a standard pad, they really would have had to bring over the six button controller in both TG16 and Duo varieties. I remember talking to someone at TTI's booth at the 1993 Summer CES about Street Fighter II and they basically said they had talked about it and talked about licensing it, but the need for the controllers killed it.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on August 22, 2012, 06:33:27 AM
So it was the Controller Issue
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 22, 2012, 06:36:35 AM
It was that TTI was running on an EXTREMELY limited budget and barely got the games they did manage to release in 1993 out the door. The cost of licensing and then producing an expensive HuCard AND controllers to play it was just too high of a cost for them to take on.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 22, 2012, 10:18:29 AM
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the controller aspect.
I considered this game when it was new and basically for the game and the Avenue 6 it was about $150 or so, as opposed to just getting Turbo for SFC for $90. I was a pretty big Turbo fan, but funds were limited. Paying more money for an older version of SF didn't make a lot of sense, and I'd have to get another controller too because SF is basically a two player only game for me.
I think the JP side had similar concerns since SFII' for PCE was heavily discounted rather quickly, and even now it's one of the easiest games to find sealed, which sort of indicates that they didn't sell as well as hoped.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 22, 2012, 12:07:06 PM
I just realized there that I was referring to both Sreet Fighter II' Turbo and the Turbo Grafx 16 by the short name of "Turbo". That gets confusing.
My biggest problem with Street Fighter for the Turbo was that it wasn't Turbo. Ha!
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 22, 2012, 12:17:32 PM
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the controller aspect.
I considered this game when it was new and basically for the game and the Avenue 6 it was about $150 or so, as opposed to just getting Turbo for SFC for $90. I was a pretty big Turbo fan, but funds were limited. Paying more money for an older version of SF didn't make a lot of sense, and I'd have to get another controller too because SF is basically a two player only game for me.
I think the JP side had similar concerns since SFII' for PCE was heavily discounted rather quickly, and even now it's one of the easiest games to find sealed, which sort of indicates that they didn't sell as well as hoped.
If I recall correctly the PCE version came out around March, Special Champion Edition and Turbo for SNES both came out around July-August. So the lead time was only a few months.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 22, 2012, 12:31:55 PM
The PCE version of SFII' was June 13th, the SFC version of Turbo was July 11 so...the PCE was THE Street Fighter machine for exactly one month.
This still isn't as bad as what happened with Fatal Fury Special.
I guess in Japan it was far more likely that you had a PCE and no SFC, although still rather unlikely. Basically everyone had a SFC. Maybe that month was really important, like, does it line up with the summer break period? I can see dropping 12,800 yen on SFII' (and two 4,000 yen controllers) if I was going back to school the day before Turbo was released on SFC.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Black Tiger on August 23, 2012, 03:12:58 AM
The PCE SFII' might not have been the best version for long in Japan, but it was different in North America. The OCE version was heavily previewed months in advance and even though I got it a littke late (saving up $230 for it), it was still a while before anything concrete (a single screen shot) was published about the SFC version of Turbo, let alone the SNES version actually coming out. Aside from the huge delay in gaming news back then, a week during the 16-bit gen as a kid felt like a year does today. Even if it was as little as six months that I had SFII' before the SNES version was released, it felt like an eternity to me and my Genesis/SNES fan friends. And even then, I was still the only one playing SFII' on a portable system.
The current cheap price and availability of games like SFII' don't reflect how well they sold bitd. Tengai Makyou II was the biggest PCE game and it is easy to find for $5 - $10. High unit numbers only reflects the expectations from bitd.
Fighting games were like sports titles back then, in that (by today's time frames) they soon became outdated. But back then even a few months was a very long time. Super Street Fighter II for SNES had more copies made than there was demand for, but it was still a massive hit.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on August 23, 2012, 03:55:13 AM
I heard Super SFII on the Genesis/SNES Flopped. People was tired of updates
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on August 23, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
Sadly Sf2 Champ was one of a few titles that really could have been a gamechanger for the system in the US market. It along with Dracula X, Gradius 2, Spriggan, Snatcher, and a few other key titles could have bumped the system up from being a distant third to a close third or even second place, from 1993 on up anyway. Hell, even just bringing over all the arcade ports released for the PCE itself would have gone a long way. Altered Beast, Golden Axe, Strider, Ghouls n Ghost etc helped the Genesis make a name for itself on the market. Stuff like Darius, Image Fight, Operation Wolf, Rastan Saga etc would have really helped the Tg16.
Even a close third would have brought in some decent profits. Fact of the matter is though that Nec of Japan did not put the same kind of effort or money into the US market as they did in the Japanese one. Other then a few tv ads they made no effort to make the system look cool and cutting edge or appealing, which is sad because really the hardware was indeed better then what Sega had released, but lacked the needed titles to show it.
The limited number of titles brought over from Japan, the infantile game box art work, and the fact they assumed they could survive off making just a few arcade hits and a couple of exclusives the US systems top tier titles for a couple of years really worked against them. It could even be said that they did not take the US market seriously. They mainly relied on Irem and Namco, and even then did not bring over all the good stuff. TTi could have even gained more of the market had they been allowed a better budget (even late in the game, something could have been done). To sell hardware you got to have the games to back it up. Being a huge underdog of the 8-bit wars, Sega of America knew this well, but Nec simply ignored it.
Sadly it played out the way it did, but it does not change the fact the system gets respect now. People who like retro gaming want the system now, but not for the same reasons people buy crap like the Jaguar or the 32X. Even with the limited amount of titles released, most of the US titles were of above average to high quality and the system is viewed in about the same favorable light as the Neo-Geo or Dreamcast with most real gamers who collect and play both wanting to own one. The games sold well on the Virtual Console even. Their quality has stood the test of time, and now people actually give it some of the credit its long deserved.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on August 24, 2012, 04:15:22 AM
For folks who want to read something "new" on this topic, jump to #4 below. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Sadly Sf2 Champ was one of a few titles that really could have been a gamechanger for the system in the US market. It along with Dracula X, Gradius 2, Spriggan, Snatcher, and a few other key titles could have bumped the system up from being a distant third to a close third or even second place, from 1993 on up anyway. Hell, even just bringing over all the arcade ports released for the PCE itself would have gone a long way. Altered Beast, Golden Axe, Strider, Ghouls n Ghost etc helped the Genesis make a name for itself on the market. Stuff like Darius, Image Fight, Operation Wolf, Rastan Saga etc would have really helped the Tg16.
Even a close third would have brought in some decent profits. Fact of the matter is though that Nec of Japan did not put the same kind of effort or money into the US market as they did in the Japanese one. Other then a few tv ads they made no effort to make the system look cool and cutting edge or appealing, which is sad because really the hardware was indeed better then what Sega had released, but lacked the needed titles to show it.
The limited number of titles brought over from Japan, the infantile game box art work, and the fact they assumed they could survive off making just a few arcade hits and a couple of exclusives the US systems top tier titles for a couple of years really worked against them. It could even be said that they did not take the US market seriously. They mainly relied on Irem and Namco, and even then did not bring over all the good stuff. TTi could have even gained more of the market had they been allowed a better budget (even late in the game, something could have been done). To sell hardware you got to have the games to back it up. Being a huge underdog of the 8-bit wars, Sega of America knew this well, but Nec simply ignored it.
Sadly it played out the way it did, but it does not change the fact the system gets respect now. People who like retro gaming want the system now, but not for the same reasons people buy crap like the Jaguar or the 32X. Even with the limited amount of titles released, most of the US titles were of above average to high quality and the system is viewed in about the same favorable light as the Neo-Geo or Dreamcast with most real gamers who collect and play both wanting to own one. The games sold well on the Virtual Console even. Their quality has stood the test of time, and now people actually give it some of the credit its long deserved.
I generally agree with the overall thrust of your argument.
A few random points:
(1) The cost of national marketing campaigns in the U.S. was exponentially higher than national campaigns in Japan. It would have taken a shitload of $$$ to replicate what NEC did in Japan. Even then, Sega and Nintendo pumped tons of $$$ into North America, so NEC/TTi would always have come up short (IMHO). I fear that TG-16 might have died an earlier death if NEC had dumped millions of $$$'s into advertising that didn't generate radically improved sales (to offset the costs).
(2) Did the TG-16/PCE games sell well on Virtual Console? We'd have to see the raw sales and then compare TG-16 relative to the other offerings to get a precise idea...but I think Nintendo is the only one who sees "all the data"...
(2.5) If TG-16 Virtual Console did generate enough profit (I hope it did), then we will hopefully see it offered in future emulation services. I want more folks to learn about/play TG-16 & PCE games, and I see emulation as the most realistic means of achieving this.
(3) I don't know if the cost of localizing a massive RPG would have paid off for NEC/TTi, but I'm still fantasizing about Tengai Makyou II: Manji Maru localized for North America (http://archives.tg-16.com/turbo_play_0012.htm#more). Were there enough RPG fans with $$$ to make TMII a profitable venture? A system-seller? Dracula X, as you said, would have been a "system seller", I think. Especially if magazines + "word of mouth" touted how it compared to its Castlevania brethren.
(4) ROLE OF Electronic Arts in Genesis' Ascension: I don't disagree with what you said, I just think the challenges were significant and would not have been easily solved (national advertising campaigns alone would not have significantly changed NEC's fate in North America...but key third-party support early-on would have helped... but we know how Nintendo maintained its competitive advantage by keeping a short leash on its third-party publishers). Someone must have written about how important (IMO) Electronic Arts was for Sega's Genesis. I'm not simply talking sports games. I think EA's relationship with Genesis lent credibility and legitimacy to the platform. Was there another developer/publisher that could have forged a similar relationship with NEC? EA, as far as I'm aware, wasn't tied up in Nintendo's NES, and therefore "free" to flourish on the fledgling Genesis. I don't think all of EA's games are paragons of quality, but it was mutually beneficial relationship between Genesis and a publisher with a large catalog covering a breadth of genres. I can't think of a "comparable" publisher that NEC could have partnered with, but, hey! I bet some interesting things could have happened.
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 24, 2012, 05:04:34 AM
(1) The cost of national marketing campaigns in the U.S. was exponentially higher than national campaigns in Japan. It would have taken a shitload of $$$ to replicate what NEC did in Japan. Even then, Sega and Nintendo pumped tons of $$$ into North America, so NEC/TTi would always have come up short (IMHO). I fear that TG-16 might have died an earlier death if NEC had dumped millions of $$$'s into advertising that didn't generate radically improved sales (to offset the costs).
Yes but you're missing two points, first off the US had roughly three times the population and it was far less densely distributed. Throwing more money at advertising alone wouldn't have improved the situation. Also you're looking only at the NEC era, by TTI time they had settled into catering to a niche rather than going head to head with Sega and Nintendo to put a console in every American household and no longer had the resources that were used during the NEC Home Electronics USA era.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on August 24, 2012, 06:51:06 AM
Just think the Games make a System
Mortal Kombat Series Bubsy Samurai Shodown Art of Fighting Super SF2 Saturday Night Slam Masters Many More
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on August 24, 2012, 07:38:17 AM
(1) The cost of national marketing campaigns in the U.S. was exponentially higher than national campaigns in Japan. It would have taken a shitload of $$$ to replicate what NEC did in Japan. Even then, Sega and Nintendo pumped tons of $$$ into North America, so NEC/TTi would always have come up short (IMHO). I fear that TG-16 might have died an earlier death if NEC had dumped millions of $$$'s into advertising that didn't generate radically improved sales (to offset the costs).
Yes but you're missing two points, first off the US had roughly three times the population and it was far less densely distributed. Throwing more money at advertising alone wouldn't have improved the situation. Also you're looking only at the NEC era, by TTI time they had settled into catering to a niche rather than going head to head with Sega and Nintendo to put a console in every American household and no longer had the resources that were used during the NEC Home Electronics USA era.
Yeah the thing too is the actual marketing itself that was being done was just weak. The comic book related ads just came off as generic. The early TV ads were well done, and everything done after, including ads in mags and comics, should have been done similar to the original TV ads. But like I said, with no major games or a large library to brag about, marketing more wouldn't have mattered too much anyway. Games sell hardware, not the other way around, and you can only milk Splatterhouse, Bloody Wolf, Ninja Spirit, and Bonk for only so long.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 24, 2012, 07:58:44 AM
Yeah the thing too is the actual marketing itself that was being done was just weak. The comic book related ads just came off as generic. The early TV ads were well done, and everything done after, including ads in mags and comics, should have been done similar to the original TV ads. But like I said, with no major games or a large library to brag about, marketing more wouldn't have mattered too much anyway. Games sell hardware, not the other way around, and you can only milk Splatterhouse, Bloody Wolf, Ninja Spirit, and Bonk for only so long.
It seems like 1991 was a bad year for releases in the US as well, as Sega was launching Sonic and the SNES was being released NEC put out far less games than the previous year.
Here's a list I have from 1990 releases and then 1991 releases. A few of these might be off but I believe it's mostly accurate. That huge dropoff in US HuCard releases made it look like the Turbo was dying while the Genesis was catching fire that year and the SNES exploded into the marketplace. Had a stronger 1991 library of releases made it out, it would have been more successful.
1990 Aero Blasters Andre Panza Kick Boxing Battle Royale Bloody Wolf Bonk's Adventure BoxyBoy Bravoman Chew Man Fu Cratermaze Cyber Core Devils Crush Double Dungeons Dragons Curse Drop off Final Lap Twin Jack Nicklaus's Turbo Golf JJ & Jeff King of Casino Klax Neutopia Ninja Spirit Pac-Pand Psychosis Raiden Sonic Spike Volleyball Super Star Soldier Super Volleyball Timeball TV Sports Football Veigues Tactical Gladiator
1991 Bomberman Bonk's Revenge Cadash Champions Forever Boxing Davis Cup Tennis Impossamole Legendary Axe II Parasol Stars Silent Debuggers Sinistron Talespin Turrican TV Sports Basketball Yo Bro
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 24, 2012, 02:14:46 PM
I honestly believe that the Turbo Grafx 16 was totally f*cked from day one. Nothing could have saved it.
I agree %100 that the earlier marketing attempts had much more impact. The later stuff was bush league crap. In all seriousness though, you don't need a shitload of ads to sell a good product to an audience that is willing to buy it. You can just brainwash them for a while, but eventually they will move on if wasn't something they really wanted.
Have you EVER seen an add on TV for a Ferrari? I'm pretty sure they don't exist, yet they sell every car they make, often times before they are even built. Chrysler on the other hand has to pay Eminem to be in their ad, and still people aren't happy with the things.
And before some a$$hole accuses me of hating NEC systems, I'm not saying the TG was bad, but it really wasn't what people here wanted, not after the SNES was released. Sega had EA, Sonic, and the f*cking "blood code", the SNES had Mario and F Zero and Contra III, NEC had...I don't even know. What could NEC have done that would have possibly been as interesting to Americans in the early 90s and those things? I just wasn't going to happen.
And think, while the PCE was much bigger in Japan, the Mega Drive was a huge failure. If the MD was as big in Japan as it was here (ie: if they loved Hockey and really shitty fighting games as much as Americans did) would the PCE have done as well? There are only so many fans, and so many dollars to go around. Perhaps two successful systems was just the maximum possible.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: geise on August 24, 2012, 02:20:58 PM
Maybe people just "thought" they knew what they wanted and just got an SNES cause "everyone" else had one. Most have never even touched a tg-16 let alont a turbo duo. NEC just wasn't a household name and the CD system was just way to expensive with so few games.
As awesome as SF2 CE is on the PC-Engine it was a little to late for it to really be a game changer. Now if it was regular SF2 and out before the SNES/SFC version that might've been a different story.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 24, 2012, 02:24:26 PM
I absolutely positively wanted a SNES. No f*cking doubt. I also wanted a Duo. I had both, but it was more than obvious to me which was the fringe system.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: geise on August 24, 2012, 02:54:44 PM
So true. That's why I loved my Turbo Duo so much. I knew at the time I wasn't missing out on something so amazing.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: turboswimbz on August 24, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
I am going to say that all these things played a part. There just wasn't enough support here. I personally look at 3 things. price Smaller less known game library distrubtion and logistics late in it's life
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on August 24, 2012, 03:47:11 PM
Just remember Nintendo Brain Washed every kid in America thinking the NES and SNES is cool system to have
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 24, 2012, 05:07:42 PM
(1) The cost of national marketing campaigns in the U.S. was exponentially higher than national campaigns in Japan. It would have taken a shitload of $$$ to replicate what NEC did in Japan. Even then, Sega and Nintendo pumped tons of $$$ into North America, so NEC/TTi would always have come up short (IMHO). I fear that TG-16 might have died an earlier death if NEC had dumped millions of $$$'s into advertising that didn't generate radically improved sales (to offset the costs).
Yes but you're missing two points, first off the US had roughly three times the population and it was far less densely distributed. Throwing more money at advertising alone wouldn't have improved the situation. Also you're looking only at the NEC era, by TTI time they had settled into catering to a niche rather than going head to head with Sega and Nintendo to put a console in every American household and no longer had the resources that were used during the NEC Home Electronics USA era.
Yeah the thing too is the actual marketing itself that was being done was just weak. The comic book related ads just came off as generic. The early TV ads were well done, and everything done after, including ads in mags and comics, should have been done similar to the original TV ads. But like I said, with no major games or a large library to brag about, marketing more wouldn't have mattered too much anyway. Games sell hardware, not the other way around, and you can only milk Splatterhouse, Bloody Wolf, Ninja Spirit, and Bonk for only so long.
I totally agree, Prof. Software sells hardware. NEC/TTi needed a solid stable of titles to even have a prayer.
I suppose NEC thought folks reading comic books were 6-7 years old and made the comics for this demographic? I've seen a Bonk and Splatterhouse comic....can't think of any others...
DragonmasterDan, we are in agreement as well (although, initially, I thought you had misconstrued my stance on advertising).
1990 Aero Blasters Andre Panza Kick Boxing Battle Royale Bloody Wolf Bonk's Adventure BoxyBoy Bravoman Chew Man Fu Cratermaze Cyber Core Devils Crush Double Dungeons Dragons Curse Drop off Final Lap Twin Jack Nicklaus's Turbo Golf JJ & Jeff King of Casino Klax Neutopia Ninja Spirit Pac-Pand Psychosis Raiden Sonic Spike Volleyball Super Star Soldier Super Volleyball Timeball TV Sports Football Veigues Tactical Gladiator
1991 Bomberman Bonk's Revenge Cadash Champions Forever Boxing Davis Cup Tennis Impossamole Legendary Axe II Parasol Stars Silent Debuggers Sinistron Talespin Turrican TV Sports Basketball Yo Bro
This is an incredibly intriguing point that folks do not bring up! We have very little data available to us (actual sales data), so the release schedule is one of the few solid pieces of data at our disposal. If memory serves, the CD-ROM release schedule was consistently weak during the life of the TG-16 (later, with the release of the TurboDuo, there may have been more emphasis on the CD format).
If CD releases were scant in 1991, coupled with the threadbare list of 1991 HuCard titles....then we have the appearance of a moribund console.
Maybe people just "thought" they knew what they wanted and just got an SNES cause "everyone" else had one. Most have never even touched a tg-16 let alont a turbo duo. NEC just wasn't a household name and the CD system was just way to expensive with so few games.
As awesome as SF2 CE is on the PC-Engine it was a little to late for it to really be a game changer. Now if it was regular SF2 and out before the SNES/SFC version that might've been a different story.
I mentioned "word of mouth" in my initial post and I think it plays a tremendously important role in determining the success of a platform. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Chuplayer on August 26, 2012, 04:34:17 AM
I honestly believe that the Turbo Grafx 16 was totally f*cked from day one. Nothing could have saved it.
I agree %100 that the earlier marketing attempts had much more impact. The later stuff was bush league crap. In all seriousness though, you don't need a shitload of ads to sell a good product to an audience that is willing to buy it. You can just brainwash them for a while, but eventually they will move on if wasn't something they really wanted.
Have you EVER seen an add on TV for a Ferrari? I'm pretty sure they don't exist, yet they sell every car they make, often times before they are even built. Chrysler on the other hand has to pay Eminem to be in their ad, and still people aren't happy with the things.
And before some a$$hole accuses me of hating NEC systems, I'm not saying the TG was bad, but it really wasn't what people here wanted, not after the SNES was released. Sega had EA, Sonic, and the f*cking "blood code", the SNES had Mario and F Zero and Contra III, NEC had...I don't even know. What could NEC have done that would have possibly been as interesting to Americans in the early 90s and those things? I just wasn't going to happen.
And think, while the PCE was much bigger in Japan, the Mega Drive was a huge failure. If the MD was as big in Japan as it was here (ie: if they loved Hockey and really shitty fighting games as much as Americans did) would the PCE have done as well? There are only so many fans, and so many dollars to go around. Perhaps two successful systems was just the maximum possible.
If things were done differently from day one, then everything would be different. Your fantasy scenarios always include the TurboGrafx-16/Genesis/SNES as being the exact same if things were done different. But if things were done different, then Sega and Nintendo and the rest of reality would have been altered. If the TurboGrafx-16 had been handled as well as possible, Sonic would not exist because the Genesis/Mega Drive would not have lasted long enough. Sega might have continued their work towards Sonic and published for PC Engine. The SNES would have totally bombed, since Contra III, Turbo Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Street Fighter II, Dragon Warrior V - VII, Final Fantasy IV - VII and all the other big third party games would have all been on TurboGrafx-16. Plus, the SNES games would look pretty weak against HuCards that used the TURBO FX chip to do the kinds of 3D graphics you'd never see in SNES games. Super Mario All Stars would be Nintendo's first PCE game, released in 1995, after they existed the hardware business.
A successful from the start TurboGrafx-16 would have radically altered the 32-bit generation, since the Saturn and Nintendo 64 would not exist as Sega and Nintendo would only be software publishers who stuck by the TurboGrafx-32 after supporting the TG-16 through 1998. Sony's botched attempt to sell a console (with no previous input from Nintendo) would bomb so bad that Sony got out of the video game business altogether and hasn't even published games ever since.
Sega was broke compared to NEC/Hudson. If the Genresis didn't take off and the TG-16 quickly pulled ahead of the NES, then Sega would be out the hardware business very quickly. Nintendo would immediately lose its grip on third parties long before the SNES was released in our timeline, if the NES/Famicom had died out early in the face of the worldwide success of the TG-16/PCE. They might not have even bothered with the SNES at all.
It is very easy to see how the TG-16 could have dominated the market. All that rich NEC had to do was beat the poor Sega and everything else would have played out in NEC's favor.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on August 26, 2012, 08:40:01 PM
...if the NES/Famicom had died out early in the face of the worldwide success of the TG-16/PCE. They might not have even bothered with the SNES at all.
I don't think Nintendo, coming from the lucrative dominance of Famicom/NES, would have given up. Heck no! They would have been more determined to carve out a place in the market (as they always have, even in the face of competition).
I actually like how Nintendo competes, but in many ways, they compete on their own terms. They don't worry (too much) about the "arms race" (technical specifications) that competitors are obsessed with.
So, even in an NEC-dominant alternate universe, Nintendo is still going forward with SNES! (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
As far as the NEC vs. Sega vs. Nintendo stuff goes: I think it was Sega's opportunity to seize 1989/1990...and they did! Sega, I believe, had learned valuable lessons about marketing/competing in North America (via Sega Master System tribulations). Nintendo was content to milk the NES (it was a smart move, really...why kill off the gravy train prematurely?) and was confident they would reclaim any lost ground with launch of SNES. This provided Sega with some breathing room.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: NES was crushing TG-16 and Genesis for quite some time. People didn't stop buying NES simply because 16-bit consoles appeared. Existing NES consumers didn't stop buying software. There was an interesting transition period where NES did not crumble instantly, but continued to be a vital, lucrative market for publishers.
It is a misconception that the brutal 16-bit wars began with the launch dates of specific consoles. In 1989/1990, the 16-bit skirmishes amongst the new consoles was not nearly as significant as the 8-bit NES vs. 16-bit war.
Or, maybe not (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png).
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Necromancer on August 27, 2012, 05:29:26 AM
Have you EVER seen an add on TV for a Ferrari? I'm pretty sure they don't exist, yet they sell every car they make, often times before they are even built. Chrysler on the other hand has to pay Eminem to be in their ad, and still people aren't happy with the things.
And yet Chrysler sold 700 vehicles for every single Ferrari sold in the US..... you're comparing apples and oranges.
And before some a$$hole accuses me of hating NEC systems, I'm not saying the TG was bad, but it really wasn't what people here wanted, not after the SNES was released.
And if they'd handled things completely differently, they'd still have sold the exact same lineup of games? Your logic does not compute.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: motdelbourt on August 27, 2012, 06:02:19 AM
I honestly believe that the Turbo Grafx 16 was totally f*cked from day one. Nothing could have saved it.
I agree %100 that the earlier marketing attempts had much more impact. The later stuff was bush league crap. In all seriousness though, you don't need a shitload of ads to sell a good product to an audience that is willing to buy it. You can just brainwash them for a while, but eventually they will move on if wasn't something they really wanted.
Have you EVER seen an add on TV for a Ferrari? I'm pretty sure they don't exist, yet they sell every car they make, often times before they are even built. Chrysler on the other hand has to pay Eminem to be in their ad, and still people aren't happy with the things.
And before some a$$hole accuses me of hating NEC systems, I'm not saying the TG was bad, but it really wasn't what people here wanted, not after the SNES was released. Sega had EA, Sonic, and the f*cking "blood code", the SNES had Mario and F Zero and Contra III, NEC had...I don't even know. What could NEC have done that would have possibly been as interesting to Americans in the early 90s and those things? I just wasn't going to happen.
And think, while the PCE was much bigger in Japan, the Mega Drive was a huge failure. If the MD was as big in Japan as it was here (ie: if they loved Hockey and really shitty fighting games as much as Americans did) would the PCE have done as well? There are only so many fans, and so many dollars to go around. Perhaps two successful systems was just the maximum possible.
If things were done differently from day one, then everything would be different. Your fantasy scenarios always include the TurboGrafx-16/Genesis/SNES as being the exact same if things were done different. But if things were done different, then Sega and Nintendo and the rest of reality would have been altered. If the TurboGrafx-16 had been handled as well as possible, Sonic would not exist because the Genesis/Mega Drive would not have lasted long enough. Sega might have continued their work towards Sonic and published for PC Engine. The SNES would have totally bombed, since Contra III, Turbo Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Street Fighter II, Dragon Warrior V - VII, Final Fantasy IV - VII and all the other big third party games would have all been on TurboGrafx-16. Plus, the SNES games would look pretty weak against HuCards that used the TURBO FX chip to do the kinds of 3D graphics you'd never see in SNES games. Super Mario All Stars would be Nintendo's first PCE game, released in 1995, after they existed the hardware business.
A successful from the start TurboGrafx-16 would have radically altered the 32-bit generation, since the Saturn and Nintendo 64 would not exist as Sega and Nintendo would only be software publishers who stuck by the TurboGrafx-32 after supporting the TG-16 through 1998. Sony's botched attempt to sell a console (with no previous input from Nintendo) would bomb so bad that Sony got out of the video game business altogether and hasn't even published games ever since.
Sega was broke compared to NEC/Hudson. If the Genresis didn't take off and the TG-16 quickly pulled ahead of the NES, then Sega would be out the hardware business very quickly. Nintendo would immediately lose its grip on third parties long before the SNES was released in our timeline, if the NES/Famicom had died out early in the face of the worldwide success of the TG-16/PCE. They might not have even bothered with the SNES at all.
It is very easy to see how the TG-16 could have dominated the market. All that rich NEC had to do was beat the poor Sega and everything else would have played out in NEC's favor.
This is a fun mindf*ck, but not 100% crazy. NEC was a large company 20 years ago, and if they really poured their resources into games the way Sony did a few years later, it's possible that we would be talking about Nintendo, Microsoft, and NEC as the three main hardware manufacturers today. Or even NEC, Sony, and Microsoft (ugh). Sega is doomed in all scenarios.
What you're forgetting though is how early the PCE came out. No amount of popularity could have kept it going past 1994, 1995; the hardware was just too old. It had a good run.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 27, 2012, 06:42:00 AM
Have you EVER seen an add on TV for a Ferrari? I'm pretty sure they don't exist, yet they sell every car they make, often times before they are even built. Chrysler on the other hand has to pay Eminem to be in their ad, and still people aren't happy with the things.
And yet Chrysler sold 700 vehicles for every single Ferrari sold in the US..... you're comparing apples and oranges.
No shit, Sherlock. That's my point. The Turboduo *was* the Ferrari. Failure comes when you try to sell it as if it were a Chrysler. The Turbo Duo had a lot more in common with the Neo Geo than the Genesis/SNES when it comes to the US market.
And before some a$$hole accuses me of hating NEC systems, I'm not saying the TG was bad, but it really wasn't what people here wanted, not after the SNES was released.
Quote
And if they'd handled things completely differently, they'd still have sold the exact same lineup of games? Your logic does not compute.
TTI was in no position to develop games, despite this they did release a few and..they didn't exactly make the system. Overall they were bound to what had been released Japan-side. What they decided to localize didn't work like they had hoped. If they had picked different/more games from Japan it would have cost more money that they didn't have and it still wouldn't have won over Americans. They were f*cked no matter what.
Back in the day I often thought, "Gee, if only they had put out Spriggan/Drac X/Street Fighter/Arcade Card/whatever." but in the last 20 years I've thought a lot about what they did and what else they could have done and I really don't blame TTI anymore at all (except for Darkwing Duck). I guess I've grown up (a little). Only hardcore mofos like us wanted a $300 machine that played games they knew nothing about and %99 of the time couldn't rent or play test in any situation. I had friends that enjoyed my Turbo Duo, but I'm pretty sure not a single one of them ever said, "Hey, maybe I should get one of these." They were content with me being the guy with the weird game machine while they had Sega/Nintendo stuff, systems you could buy 10x as many games in 20x as many stores.
Most game customers in 1992 didn't read EGM, they bought their games at stores that didn't carry the Duo, and they wanted to be able to rent. Even if they knew about the Duo the $300 price would have shocked the hell out of them anyway. Nintendo and Sega sold the most systems when they were $100-120, and that's with a killer game they actually knew. You might not believe this, but a lot of kids only ever had the pack-in game with their Genesis/SNES and that was it. Forever.
I really don't think that in the early 90s there was room for three popular machines plus handhelds.
Likewise, these posible scenarios here of NEC possibly doing SO well that they completely kick Sega/Nintendo out of the console business in a single generation are ridiculous. Even nowadays with 10x as much money in the industry and all sorts of back room deals, things don't move that fast, and they moved even more slowly back then.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Necromancer on August 27, 2012, 06:54:59 AM
No shit, Sherlock. That's my point. The Turboduo *was* the Ferrari. Failure comes when you try to sell it as if it were a Chrysler. The Turbo Duo had a lot more in common with the Neo Geo than the Genesis/SNES when it comes to the US market.
So they sold every TurboDuo they wanted to sell, and at a substantial profit? Yep, just like Ferrari.
TTI was in no position to develop games, despite this they did release a few and..they didn't exactly make the system. Overall they were bound to what had been released Japan-side. What they decided to localize didn't work like they had hoped. If they had picked different/more games from Japan it would have cost more money that they didn't have and it still wouldn't have won over Americans. They were f*cked no matter what.
There's some logic to saying TTi was f*cked no matter what, as anything they could do would've been too little too late, but you said the TurboGrafx was f*cked no matter what. Pick an argument, for Christ's sake.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 27, 2012, 07:33:51 AM
There's some logic to saying TTi was f*cked no matter what, as anything they could do would've been too little too late, but you said the TurboGrafx was f*cked no matter what. Pick an argument, for Christ's sake.
The biggest thing to note about TTI was that they were aiming at a different audience. By the time TTI had taken over the reigns for US distribution the goal wasn't to put a TurboGrafx in every household in America like Nintendo and Sega were trying to do (or like NEC Home Electronics USA had dreamed of). The goal was to try and make a profit catering to a niche market of mostly hardcore gamers and to market the TurboGrafx and specifically the Duo has a more niche focused platform for serious games enthusiasts. Yes some general audience content like Darkwing Duck and Madden did come out under TTIs watch, but it was already in the pipeline.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SamIAm on August 27, 2012, 07:57:16 AM
When talking about what-if scenarios for the TG16's success, I think it's hard to over-emphasize how important it is that most gamers back then were pre-teen kids. Where they went, third parties followed. Console makers had to win that demographic over or die.
First of all, the CD-ROM unit and the Duo were far too expensive for kids. Those games are a nice bonus, but they can't be part of the solution.
NEC needed a game that could compete with Mario in terms of both character and quality on the base TG16, and they needed it early. They knew it, they attempted it with Bonk, but they failed. It was a nice try.
Call me crazy, but I think that those killer apps were the most important factor back then. Prices being otherwise competitive, they had more influence on the decision making process of the kids actually choosing the product than anything else.
The single most interesting part of Sega's history IMO is that they desperately needed that killer app, and they got it.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 27, 2012, 08:07:52 AM
When talking about what-if scenarios for the TG16's success, I think it's hard to over-emphasize how important it is that most gamers back then were pre-teen kids. Where they went, third parties followed. Console makers had to win that demographic over or die.
First of all, the CD-ROM unit and the Duo were far too expensive for kids. Those games are a nice bonus, but they can't be part of the solution.
NEC needed a game that could compete with Mario in terms of both character and quality on the base TG16, and they needed it early. They knew it, they attempted it with Bonk, but they failed. It was a nice try.
Call me crazy, but I think that those killer apps were the most important factor back then. Prices being otherwise competitive, they had more influence on the decision making process of the kids actually choosing the product than anything else.
The single most interesting part of Sega's history IMO is that they desperately needed that killer app, and they got it.
I'm not so sure that the killer app was the main cause so much as it was the marketing. They made Sonic a counter-culture character at a time when rebellion was in style. The old woman complaining about Sonic having too much tude while cheesey today was a brilliant marketing ploy aimed at America's youth in the early 1990s. If NEC had used a similar commercial for Bonk and advertised it as widely I think the results might have been a bit different.
Here's the Sonic commercial I'm reffering to.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SamIAm on August 27, 2012, 08:19:53 AM
I can certainly agree that marketing played a huge role in "making" the killer apps. As you say, Sega's marketing pretty much hit that ball out of the park.
At the risk of making myself unpopular, though, I'm skeptical that Bonk the character and Bonk the game(s) alike quite had the mojo to back it up like Sonic did.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 27, 2012, 08:23:15 AM
At the risk of making myself unpopular, though, I'm skeptical that Bonk the character and Bonk the game(s) alike quite had the mojo to back it up like Sonic did.
I'll agree he didn't have the 90's tude that made Sonic so popular. For goodness sakes, Sonic would get irritated when you didn't move look at the screen and tap his feet.
But yeah, Sega did an excellent job marketing Sonic which I think is more responsible for his, the game, and the Genesis's popularity than the actual product itself.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Necromancer on August 27, 2012, 09:13:01 AM
At the risk of making myself unpopular, though, I'm skeptical that Bonk the character and Bonk the game(s) alike quite had the mojo to back it up like Sonic did.
Agreed. They used Zonk and his cheap sunglasses (ZZ Top!) to bring the attitude. 8)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on August 27, 2012, 09:26:47 AM
At the risk of making myself unpopular, though, I'm skeptical that Bonk the character and Bonk the game(s) alike quite had the mojo to back it up like Sonic did.
I'll agree he didn't have the 90's tude that made Sonic so popular. For goodness sakes, Sonic would get irritated when you didn't move look at the screen and tap his feet.
But yeah, Sega did an excellent job marketing Sonic which I think is more responsible for his, the game, and the Genesis's popularity than the actual product itself.
Sonic and Zonk and Mario lived in peace and harmony. Sonic's attitude notwithstanding:
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SamIAm on August 28, 2012, 03:17:45 AM
I know this is getting far off the original topic, but I can't resist.
When it came to making Sonic into a killer app, Sega's marketing staff certainly helped a lot. In fact, it probably couldn't have happened without them. But there is a lot more to Sonic than a few clever advertisements. I think it comes down to two big things.
One is that Sonic the character set a trend. Marketing can give a product all kinds of presence, but they can't make it set a trend unless the product itself really is something special. Sonic the character was solidly designed and the perfect new thing for that particular time. On the TG16, Bonk does strike me as lovable, if not mega-hit material. On the other hand, I'm actually less impressed with Zonk as a character because all he's doing is following a trend. He also came in pretty late.
Two is the game of Sonic itself, and how much more you can say about it. Sonic may not have been your cup of tea, but I think most would agree that if nothing else, it was instantly distinguishable. The look of the game, in stills and in motion, and the feel of the gameplay itself really stood out at the time. Bonk and Zonk were a totally decent games, but you couldn't say much more about them than that.
That's why I think that if neither Sonic nor Bonk/Zonk had been put in the mascot spotlight, Sonic would still be remembered more.
Once Sonic made the entrance that it did, essentially rebelling against the Mario establishment and striking a chord with western kids, that generation was pretty much set as a fight between Sega and Nintendo. The only way NEC/Hudson was going to not get edged out was to be the one to come up with the anti-Mario first.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on August 28, 2012, 05:56:45 AM
I know this is getting far off the original topic, but I can't resist.
When it came to making Sonic into a killer app, Sega's marketing staff certainly helped a lot. In fact, it probably couldn't have happened without them. But there is a lot more to Sonic than a few clever advertisements. I think it comes down to two big things.
One is that Sonic the character set a trend. Marketing can give a product all kinds of presence, but they can't make it set a trend unless the product itself really is something special. Sonic the character was solidly designed and the perfect new thing for that particular time. On the TG16, Bonk does strike me as lovable, if not mega-hit material. On the other hand, I'm actually less impressed with Zonk as a character because all he's doing is following a trend. He also came in pretty late.
Two is the game of Sonic itself, and how much more you can say about it. Sonic may not have been your cup of tea, but I think most would agree that if nothing else, it was instantly distinguishable. The look of the game, in stills and in motion, and the feel of the gameplay itself really stood out at the time. Bonk and Zonk were a totally decent games, but you couldn't say much more about them than that.
That's why I think that if neither Sonic nor Bonk/Zonk had been put in the mascot spotlight, Sonic would still be remembered more.
Once Sonic made the entrance that it did, essentially rebelling against the Mario establishment and striking a chord with western kids, that generation was pretty much set as a fight between Sega and Nintendo. The only way NEC/Hudson was going to not get edged out was to be the one to come up with the anti-Mario first.
Sonic was the perfect storm: excellent game, with replay value, striking visual aesthetics and amazing attention to detail (controls, graphical flourishes), a mascot with attitude that did NOT seem overly contrived, full support of Sega USA to be *the* face of Sega.
Mario, as a mascot, developed organically and slowly. I liked that slow evolution.
But Sega didn't have the luxury of time. Sega needed something instantly. Sega could easily have struck out with Sonic, but, thankfully, they handled everything properly. INSTA-BLOCKBUSTER GAME! INSTA-FRANCHISE! INSTA-MASCOT! INSTA-DIFFERENTIATION FROM COMPETITION! INSTA-BRANDING OF SEGA'S IDEALS.
Sadly, Bonk and Zonk didn't get a chance to fully develop into characters steeped in a rich world. Bonk is the closest we got...but it was FERTILE enough to be more fully developed and expanded (the dreaded cross-over game where Bonk & Co. star in a golf game?)
Bottom line: Bonk (and especially Zonk) are runners-up, at best, in the Mascot War. Mario has a long, rich history in 1990. Sonic is the Young Turk, the breakout upstart. While Bonk was very much a mascot like Mario, he was decent enough. Bonk was the loveable, low-budget mascot.
I love Bonk for what he is. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: BigusSchmuck on August 28, 2012, 06:33:44 AM
I know this is getting far off the original topic, but I can't resist.
When it came to making Sonic into a killer app, Sega's marketing staff certainly helped a lot. In fact, it probably couldn't have happened without them. But there is a lot more to Sonic than a few clever advertisements. I think it comes down to two big things.
One is that Sonic the character set a trend. Marketing can give a product all kinds of presence, but they can't make it set a trend unless the product itself really is something special. Sonic the character was solidly designed and the perfect new thing for that particular time. On the TG16, Bonk does strike me as lovable, if not mega-hit material. On the other hand, I'm actually less impressed with Zonk as a character because all he's doing is following a trend. He also came in pretty late.
Two is the game of Sonic itself, and how much more you can say about it. Sonic may not have been your cup of tea, but I think most would agree that if nothing else, it was instantly distinguishable. The look of the game, in stills and in motion, and the feel of the gameplay itself really stood out at the time. Bonk and Zonk were a totally decent games, but you couldn't say much more about them than that.
That's why I think that if neither Sonic nor Bonk/Zonk had been put in the mascot spotlight, Sonic would still be remembered more.
Once Sonic made the entrance that it did, essentially rebelling against the Mario establishment and striking a chord with western kids, that generation was pretty much set as a fight between Sega and Nintendo. The only way NEC/Hudson was going to not get edged out was to be the one to come up with the anti-Mario first.
Sonic was the perfect storm: excellent game, with replay value, striking visual aesthetics and amazing attention to detail (controls, graphical flourishes), a mascot with attitude that did NOT seem overly contrived, full support of Sega USA to be *the* face of Sega.
Mario, as a mascot, developed organically and slowly. I liked that slow evolution.
But Sega didn't have the luxury of time. Sega needed something instantly. Sega could easily have struck out with Sonic, but, thankfully, they handled everything properly. INSTA-BLOCKBUSTER GAME! INSTA-FRANCHISE! INSTA-MASCOT! INSTA-DIFFERENTIATION FROM COMPETITION! INSTA-BRANDING OF SEGA'S IDEALS.
Sadly, Bonk and Zonk didn't get a chance to fully develop into characters steeped in a rich world. Bonk is the closest we got...but it was FERTILE enough to be more fully developed and expanded (the dreaded cross-over game where Bonk & Co. star in a golf game?)
Bottom line: Bonk (and especially Zonk) are runners-up, at best, in the Mascot War. Mario has a long, rich history in 1990. Sonic is the Young Turk, the breakout upstart. While Bonk was very much a mascot like Mario, he was decent enough. Bonk was the loveable, low-budget mascot.
I love Bonk for what he is. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Bonk would have been cooler if he was mario, sonic combined into a new character: Baronic! :P I know this has been discussed about a billion times, but if we saw a Super Duo at a discounted price with the power of the Supergrafx and arcade card and it came out in 92 maybe it would have justified the $200-300 price range. Or just sell it at a loss like Sony did with the Playstation and make your money back via software. Anyway, enough being off topic I think if NEC/TTI advertised more the less that you can play Street Fighter 2 on the go probably would have sold a lot more Turbo Expresses and probably would have given the Gameboy and Gamegear a run for their money if it was priced cheaply enough though...
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: MottZilla on August 31, 2012, 09:26:57 AM
You know there are alot of factors that helped determine winners and losers. Sega's success with the Genesis in the US was definitely helped by good timing, marketing, and most definitely Sonic The Hedgehog both as a game and as a Mascot.
I do think that the TurboGrafx 16 was doomed, maybe not from the outset. But unlike in Japan the prices definitely made a big difference. The PC-Engine really shines with CD-ROM games and that technology just was too expensive for the market in North America at the time. The Sega CD certainly wasn't a success. And they had things going for them. Sega was hot at the time. While the line-up of games may not have been AAA, the price is most likely the real reason it wasn't near as popular as the base system.
I like the PCE but without things playing out quite differently I think they were doomed to fail in North America. This idea about if Sega had gone down and made room for NEC may have helped but I still think the Super Nintendo would have been #1, and probably would have dominated the generation. Anyway, you can speculate about these things forever.
About the original topic, Street Fighter II' was definitely not worth the cost of bringing to the TG16. There were plenty of other games way better they should have tried bringing to North America instead. Castlevania is definitely one. Gradius II might have been another. Probably a good number of HuCards that should be on such a list too. Tiger Heli for one.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 31, 2012, 10:40:33 AM
Regarding the issue of Sonic and marketing:
The idea that marketing made Sonic is disingenuous bullshit, basically the video game equivelant of politicians blaming the media. Ads help sell things, but in the end people buy what they like. Sonic the Hedgehog was an AMAZING looking game for the time and extremely fluid. It flowed, as Bruce said, "like water".
When you put Sonic 1 (or the second one, Sonic 2 pack-ins sold more systems, probably) next to Super Mario Word it makes Mario look like a f*cking NES game. If Mario World is the begining of 16-bit and Yoshi's Island is the end, Sonic is the stepping stone that got us there. It raised the bar enormously.
If I was to take a cynical look at Sega's success with the Genesis I would mention EA and Mortal Kombat 1. EA and MK sold a lot of Genesis 2s, even in the later years when there was no benefit, and sometimes detriment, to the Sega versions. The train was in motion. Meanwhile, Japan, where they hated MK and didn't give much of a shit about EA sports, the 16-bit Sega years were as dark as the NEC years in the US.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 31, 2012, 11:06:16 AM
The idea that marketing made Sonic is disingenuous bullshit, basically the video game equivelant of politicians blaming the media. Ads help sell things, but in the end people buy what they like. Sonic the Hedgehog was an AMAZING looking game for the time and extremely fluid. It flowed, as Bruce said, "like water".
When you put Sonic 1 (or the second one, Sonic 2 pack-ins sold more systems, probably) next to Super Mario Word it makes Mario look like a f*cking NES game. If Mario World is the begining of 16-bit and Yoshi's Island is the end, Sonic is the stepping stone that got us there. It raised the bar enormously.
If I was to take a cynical look at Sega's success with the Genesis I would mention EA and Mortal Kombat 1. EA and MK sold a lot of Genesis 2s, even in the later years when there was no benefit, and sometimes detriment, to the Sega versions. The train was in motion. Meanwhile, Japan, where they hated MK and didn't give much of a shit about EA sports, the 16-bit Sega years were as dark as the NEC years in the US.
I'm by no means saying Sonic wasn't a great game, but how it was marketed was every bit as important as the product itself.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on August 31, 2012, 12:03:08 PM
That makes you sound like a PCE fanboy that can't except losing the console wars.
"Oh, they bought something other than [insert prefered console]? They must have been brainwashed then."
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on August 31, 2012, 03:13:15 PM
That makes you sound like a PCE fanboy that can't except losing the console wars.
"Oh, they bought something other than [insert prefered console]? They must have been brainwashed then."
No one is saying anything about brainwashing. I'm simply saying Sega did a far better job of raising public awareness of their system, did a better job of promoting their system by creating a Sonic bundle to replace the original Altered Beast pack in fairly short order after Sonic was released, and made their product look cool with a fantastic advertising campaign.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on September 01, 2012, 12:28:21 AM
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/hany_in_the_sky.png) Hany whispers, "Sonic can dust my doilies anytime he wants to."
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Black Tiger on September 01, 2012, 04:39:18 AM
Non-fanboy wording:
"Oh, they bought something other than [insert prefered console]? They must have marketed it better then."
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on September 01, 2012, 05:53:20 AM
Maybe I'm projecting myself onto others. To me, anyone who buys something just because they saw an add for it is a f*cking tool.
Having the Duo at Kmart, Target, etc probably would have helped more. I mean, an ad is one thing, but I'm pretty sure than at least %30 of America was living in a towns where you couldn't even buy a Turboduo. In my town the only place to get one was at EB, which was in a one year old mall. If that mall hadn't been built, I would have had to mail order it or drive almost an hour to get one.
Keep in mind that back then EB wasn't the ghetto GameStop is now. You could buy Neo games off the shelf there back then.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: HercTNT on September 01, 2012, 06:48:26 AM
An if you don't see an add for it, how would you know it exists? marketing fuels the corporate engine across the world.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on September 01, 2012, 08:25:20 AM
I'm pretty sure consumer products and money existed centuries before advertising. Just because you've never bought a single product without first seeing an ad for it doesn't mean everyone works that way.
That must be why the Dairy Council started running ads for milk in the 80s. People lost confidence in any product not mercilously hyped on television.
How did you find out about milk, btw?
I've never seen an ad on TV for Snap On tools, Neo Geo, Momo steering wheels, G Shock watches, or John Deere lawn tractors, or any of the iPhone games I have, yet I own all of these things. I also have a Chihuahua, two space heaters, a bunch of laserdisc players, some plastic model kits, a soldering iron, and several musical instruments I've never seen ads for.
In fact, since I almost never watch any TV it's amazing I manage to spend any money at all!
An if you don't see an add for it, how would you know it exists? marketing fuels the corporate engine across the world.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: HercTNT on September 01, 2012, 09:04:45 AM
I don't disagree with this. i just think that advertising has its place. not everything is a household name. if you saw an add for bonks revenge in a gaming magazine, and it hyped you up to buy it, would you still be a tool? After all, better and more advertising could have helped out nec at least.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on September 01, 2012, 09:24:01 AM
Maybe I'm projecting myself onto others. To me, anyone who buys something just because they saw an add for it is a f*cking tool.
Keep in mind, the target audience for video games at that time was mostly children. They care a lot more about what's cool and what's well liked than most adults do. I don't think that makes them a tool, it just makes them children.
Quote
Having the Duo at Kmart, Target, etc probably would have helped more. I mean, an ad is one thing, but I'm pretty sure than at least %30 of America was living in a towns where you couldn't even buy a Turboduo. In my town the only place to get one was at EB, which was in a one year old mall. If that mall hadn't been built, I would have had to mail order it or drive almost an hour to get one.
Right, but Sonic was a year before the Turbo Duo, under NEC Home Electronics the TurboGrafx 16 had a wider web of retailers than TTI did with the Duo.
Quote
Keep in mind that back then EB wasn't the ghetto GameStop is now. You could buy Neo games off the shelf there back then.
You could do that at some Toys R Us's as well (and the Neo-Geo Gold console configuration).
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on September 01, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
In fact, since I almost never watch any TV it's amazing I manage to spend any money at all!
TV isn't as integral a part of American life as it was 20 years ago. The internet, the increased popularity of video games among many other things have dropped TV viewership down from what it was years ago when there were fewer entertainment outlets. The fact that there's more channels, ondemand options and netflix from 20 years ago has further led to a decline. TV ads had a much bigger impact then than they do today.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on September 02, 2012, 04:43:30 PM
Was there any plans for a 6 button Joystick for the PC Engine??
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on September 03, 2012, 02:23:07 AM
Was there any plans for a 6 button Joystick for the PC Engine??
The Duo Rx came packaged with an official NEC 6 button controller. Looks exactly like what the released for the PC-FX as well (just different plug in configuration)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on September 03, 2012, 06:39:11 AM
Was there any plans for a 6 button Joystick for the PC Engine??
The Duo Rx came packaged with an official NEC 6 button controller. Looks exactly like what the released for the PC-FX as well (just different plug in configuration)
There are three licensed/1st party pads, but I think the only licensed stick is the Hori Fighing Stick. There were third party ones from MAS, and also one called the City Boy. I'm sure there were others, maybe Sigma made one.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: c0ldb33r on September 03, 2012, 10:55:06 AM
Do you mean joystick or controller? As for a controller there's the Avenue 6 which is awesome.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: DragonmasterDan on September 03, 2012, 12:01:33 PM
There are three licensed/1st party pads, but I think the only licensed stick is the Hori Fighing Stick. There were third party ones from MAS, and also one called the City Boy. I'm sure there were others, maybe Sigma made one.
There was a Neo-Geo, SNES, Genesis, PC Engine all in one six button joystick called the Imagineer as well.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: roflmao on September 03, 2012, 05:33:02 PM
erp, nvm. :)
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on September 04, 2012, 05:10:02 PM
I said Joystick, not Controller
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: CPU64 on September 13, 2012, 04:17:35 PM
I still have a copy of SFII' waiting to be played. One day I'll end up getting either a PCE or make an adapter when I get the pin layout that needs to be changed.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: MottZilla on September 15, 2012, 08:29:04 AM
In fact, since I almost never watch any TV it's amazing I manage to spend any money at all!
TV isn't as integral a part of American life as it was 20 years ago. The internet, the increased popularity of video games among many other things have dropped TV viewership down from what it was years ago when there were fewer entertainment outlets. The fact that there's more channels, ondemand options and netflix from 20 years ago has further led to a decline. TV ads had a much bigger impact then than they do today.
I hadn't really thought about how younger people didn't experience TV being relevant. When I was a kid, everyone watched a lot of TV. Well much more compared to today. Now unless you have cable TV there is very little worth watching and even if you do there isn't really that much compelling to watch. Ads are all about drugs now. The internet and on demand and DVDs/Blu-ray have certainly changed entertainment.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on September 15, 2012, 09:22:21 AM
I opened my Turbo Pad & the Avenue Pad 6 ...The Turbo Pads White Connecters are too big for the Avenue Pad 6
I opened my Turbo Pad & the Avenue Pad 6 ...The Turbo Pads White Connecters are too big for the Avenue Pad 6
It looks like you have an early TurboPad there, as later revisions have internal connectors identical to those on the Ave6.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on September 18, 2012, 08:31:17 AM
Thanks for the Info on it..I have to wait for the adapter for my TurboGrafx-16
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on October 13, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
Where can I get the Case for SF2 CE ..I'm using a Double CD Case for now
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 13, 2012, 08:51:28 PM
You could steal the inserts from another late HuCard game, but I think they're probably all more valuable that SFII' meaning if you want a complete SFII' you should just buy a complete copy.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: Firebomber7 on October 14, 2012, 12:58:01 PM
By which you mean this is the third frickin' time K.W.'s asked the same frickin' question and the third time he's been given the same frickin' answers, right? :lol:
JUST BUY ANOTHER COPY ALREADY, KNIGHTWARRIOR!
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: KnightWarrior on October 15, 2012, 07:02:21 AM
I didn't realize I ask it 3 time, My fault ..heh
Nevermind then...
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: esteban on October 17, 2012, 12:45:49 PM
AWESOME THREAD.
Title: Re: Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 17, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
Believe me, I know the frustration of completing something incomplete and only wanting the pieces you need and nothing more. This is why when I buy games I always buy them with cases and manuals. All too often the only way to get the case and manual later is to buy the whole game again...which is what I should have done in the first place. I so have some loose PCE games, but they were all given to me for free.
I have this policy with G1 Transformers too. If you buy a guy without his gun...how the f*ck are you going to get just the gun? That's the first part that gets lost!