PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Trenton_net on September 16, 2012, 11:53:58 AM
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Hey Everyone,
Assuming you have a PC Engine modified to output RGB (Scart plug), how would one go about connecting this to a regular north American TV? Does it matter if the RGB output is in the Japanese or European format?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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I've been wondering this myself. Did some light research, but found nothing finite. Did you perhaps buy a Doujindance modded Duo-R from ebay?
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If the TV doesn't have some kind of input for RGB, well, you would have to mod the TV. I remember hearing there were places that could do that for you, but now, I'd guess you'd have to learn how to do that yourself.
Your more feasible option is a component video mod for your PC Engine and the fact that most modern TV sets have analog component inputs. There are plans here by our modding experts to sell boards that do it once thesteve gets his inexpensive design ironed out.
And yeah, if you bought one of those PC Engines that were modded to output a PAL signal and sold in the UK, as opposed to the usual NTSC standard, then that is a problem. I would guess you would have to get around the mod, should be possible. I don't think they changed any actual chips with those systems, so tapping the RGB off the 6260 chip would be in NTSC.
Correction: The RGB state of the video signal is prior to any NTSC/PAL encoding, so that doesn't matter.
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Nope. I haven't gotten any machine. Not yet anyway! But the reason I ask is because most solutions seem to refer to the XRGB-3. While I have no doubt that it's a great product, I'd rather not spend $400 on a solution, if there is something easier. I figure S-Video would be the easy compromise since most HDTV's accept this?
How does a PC Engine look on an HDTV anyway in S-Video or Composite? Does it look as crappy as everyone says it does? Or is that just because people forget how it looks like on a normal TV? I assume people don't like the picture because it gets upscaled and usually looks jagged? Personally I like that, as it appears sharp looking (Though I dunno how TVs upscale the image).
Update: I'd totally go for a component Duo-R, but it looks like most people mod for RGB and not component. (>_<); Unless someone here sells component DUO-R units. But as to PC Engine RGB, I'd probably want to go with RGB/60 (Japanese/NTSC?) since it's faster than RGB/50 (European/PAL?) which is slower?
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I have 5 HDTVs (flat screen LCD/LED models) and NONE of them offer S-video. Its either composite, component, or HDMI.
There are converters that accept SCART inputs and convert them to component, however, I haven't heard of anyone on here using such devices. If anyone here has a SCART modified Duo, I'd like to know how they connect to a modern LCD/LED TV...
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If you don't mind me asking, how does your PC Engine look like over composite? I know the PC Engine has pretty good composite output, but I was curious as to if it was really that bad or not over an HDTV.
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If you must use an HD TV, best option is to get an XRGB. RGB goes in, VGA goes out.
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I've always hated the composite output on my Turbo Duo. The dot crawl effect is very apparent to me; a good game to test this problem with is Keith Courage. The s-video mod offered about a 15-20% improvement I'd say in contrast and a decent reduction in that effect. I can't wait to see how it looks with component once I finally do the mod.
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PAL/NTSC doesn't come into the equation at all when utilising RGB, that's the whole point of RGB, no colour encoding, seems to be a bit of a misconception about this.
Re the Duo's composite output, it's actually rather decent but still looks like arse on a modern TV (non CRT).
Re the Euro/Japanese SCART standard, they are both different but the only thing this affects is the SCART cable itself, and practically all RGB modded Duo's include a Euro SCART cable so this is a non-issue. As you mention, you only need the Japanese wired cable for an XRGB unit and you're not interested on one of those, and even if you were you can buy cables that adapt the Euro SCART cable to a Japanese one (and vice versa).
Assuming your TV has component input, your best option will be to grab an RGB to YUV encoder. The picture quality is great and the only thing that's missing is scanlines. If you really want scanlines, the cheapest way to do it is via and SLG SCART device. The only problem with the SCART to component encoders is that they don't include outputs for audio, so will will either need to perform a simple mod to it yourself or grab a breakout box (a device that docks into the encoder and provides RCA audio output).
Here's a basic overview of a possible setup and links to products:
RGB modded Duo -> Converter box (for audio output) -> SLG SCART (for scanlines) -> Encoder (convert to component) -> TV
Converter box: http://www.retro-access.com/ourshop/prod_1615892-169-to-43-mode-converter-box-for-Sega-Megadrive-Neo-Geo-and-other-SCART-RGB-cables.html
SLG SCART: http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteurope.de/xtcmodified/product_info.php?products_id=43
Encoder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEGA-SCART-RGB-YPbPr-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-/220698773448?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3362ac07c8
As you can see the above setup is quite cumbersome, but it does work well and still ends up cheaper than an XRGB-3. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the fake scanlines and would just use the encoder.
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Does the PC Engine pipe out 60hz? Or do most of these mods output 50hz to match European standards? In addition, does adding the converter box + Encoder add any kind of lag that would break gameplay?
Update: What would be the official name for the converter box? That is, if one wanted to search for it on eBay?
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The PCE spits out 60Hz, but don't worry about the 50/60Hz thing as it won't matter with an RGB modded unit.
No lag with encoder, none whatsoever.
RGA is the only place I know of that sells them, she sells them on eBay too sometimes but has none listed at the moment. She calls them a breakout box on eBay.
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Ah, thanks. The webpage she has mentions that the device doubles the voltage. Does the PC Engine pipe out 5v? Or does it depend on the cable that you receive for your RGB PC Engine?
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Seems like he's getting confused from this thing: http://www.robwebb1.plus.com/pce/pce.htm
Just stay away from PAL modded TG-16 UK units! Get a Duo!
To be clear, it's all Japanese hardware and Japan went with the same video standards as North America. Internally, the RGB signal is at 15 kHz horizontal and 60 kHz vertical. OK, so I'm understanding that when you encode such signals to composite, you choose either NTSC or PAL, etc. Japan went with NTSC like the U.S. But with *raw* RGB, I guess I'm wondering if you have to modify the signal, say the 60Khz vertical frequency, when dealing with a European TV with RGB inputs... Internally, are European and US monitors that accept a 15 Khz RGB signal operating at the same vertical frequency ? I would guess PAL supporting monitors operate at 50 Hz internally too, plus it has more lines of resolution and what not (625 as opposed to NTSC' 525) - point is, the differences must affect things somehow even without encoding. But eh, I don't really care, just was mildly curious after the way in which the issue was raised.
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If I could buy one of those PAL TG's locally for $50 or so, I might be swayed to grab one, but I'd still struggle to see the point. I mean, it's PAL, only plays US HuCards, no CD capabilities and uses different controller ports which limits your controller options in a big way.
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RGB to Component transcoder + Component capable SDTV for $50 from Craigslist is the best way to do it, IMO.
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How does a PC Engine look on an HDTV anyway in S-Video or Composite? Does it look as crappy as everyone says it does? Or is that just because people forget how it looks like on a normal TV? I assume people don't like the picture because it gets upscaled and usually looks jagged? Personally I like that, as it appears sharp looking (Though I dunno how TVs upscale the image).
Granted, not every LCD employs a gamemode or supports s-video, but this is basically the picture quality on my Toshiba 26inch LCD when using Svideo on Snes (PCE on my LCD enjoys the same quality):
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/DSCN5139.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/DSCN5123.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/DSCN5128.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/DSCN5134.jpg)
Results are basically going to vary from LCD to LCD, and you will need to calibrate your Tv's settings.
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I find that Samsung TV's are generally the worst when it comes to retro gaming, LG's aren't the best either. Toshiba and Panasonic are great, I imagine Sony probably is too but don't know first hand.
I took these photos (with a crappy camera and the images have been scaled down, so keep that in mind) to illustrate the difference that a SCART to Component encoder can make. It's of a Master System console connected to a Panasonic plasma TV via component.
Below is the image via component:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/fjs/SMS_Plasma_YUV.jpg)
For reference, here's the exact same setup via composite:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/fjs/SMS_Plasma_AV.jpg)
As you can see, the picture quality is drastically improved via component, with a nice sharp image plus brighter colours with no bleeding.
Still, nothing beats RGB on a CRT:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/fjs/MS-RGB.png)
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id love to RE one of these transcoders
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if you have an older tv system and you are playing older game systems.. TV's here in europe with the 21 pin scart is for win..it IS sharper than S-video and there is no tv option to alter the sharpness for scart. Composite cables that plug into a scart plug or s-video connection into scart etc will not give you the same image results like the real thing.
Here in the UK we rarely used composite and instead used RF to play our games back on the atari 2600, intellivision, colecovision, NES, sega master system days and early sega genesis, SNES days..
If you only have composite I can only advise that you reduce the sharpness to reduce some of the mesh effects..
I think there is still a retro store in london that still does scart conversions but you will also need to purchase a scart booster from them to brighten the colours of the pce..
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/IMG_0295.jpg)
some old pictures of my sega saturn hooked up to my old LCD tv via RGB scart
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/IMG_0624.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/IMG_0632.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/IMG_0634.jpg)
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no one in the states gets to see the mesh, as our TV's wont go that sharp in composite.
S-Vid eliminates the mesh, allowing for solid sharpness, and eliminating most inherent color bleed.
component eliminated all color bleed (about 10% better than S-Vid, if that)
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My television set, using composite. Even the RF is extremly clear.
Composite is the standard, and depending on your television, you can have good and bad composite, along with RF display. When I look at the pixel on screen I do not see a shadow, or glow. You have to look really close to notice the difference. This is part of the bleed of televisions, and was one of the features that allowed small images, to display clearly. My television does have scalelines.
You don't notice them unless you get really close.
I have two other televisions, around the place, and one jerks in composite mode, and another has a sorta blurr ( that set also feature RGB ), the other one is also kinda blurry.
I am guessing the composite is sorta blurry because of the RGB built inside of it.
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