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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: supergrafxpcengine2 on March 06, 2006, 10:48:05 AM
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long before GameFan even existed, EGM told us that Strider for the SuperGrafx was coming.......
from EGM Number 18 (G.I. JOE on the cover), January, 1991 - page 17
(part 1)
(http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3711/stridersgx15ol.jpg)
(part 2)
(http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7318/stridersgx28ls.jpg)
of course, those images being from the SuperGrafx are highly unlikely. they're probably from either the arcade version or the Sharp X68000 version which was extremely close to the arcade, much more so than the MD-Gen version, and beyond the capabilities of the SuperGrafx.
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The SuperGrafx version would have had closer graphics to the arcade than the MD - actually almost pixel for pixel (except for some illegal RGB colors that don't transfer) thanks to the 7mhz res mode which the pixel aspect ratio is VERY close to the arcade, unlike the Arcade card version which used the 5mhz mode and had to have redrawn sprites/tiles :wink:
The MD version also had redrawn tiles/sprites not just the lack of the number of colors, but the res of the MD version is closer to the arcade res than the AC version.
EGM took those pics from a Japanese mag - some strider shrine page has supposedly verified this, but ...
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I remember that issue it got my hopes up too :P :evil:
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hmmm.... well the SuperGrafx does not exactly match up to Capcom's CPS arcade hardware. in fact, the SGX is completely outclassed in processing power, graphics manipulation, background layers, RAM, VRAM and audio.
as well as on rom memory size compared to CPS roms. Strider arcade is between 32 and 43 megabits. the SGX Strider was going to be either 8 or 10 megabits. it would not have rivaled the arcade or even been close really. better than the Arcade Card CD, yes, but barely better than the Megadrive-Genesis rendition, which dispite fanboism, was really not even remotely near 'arcade perfect' even though it was more than respectable.... actually quite good given the they only had 8-meg to work with and on vastly weaker Sega console. hardware.
It still could've been great though, especially if they put in some new levels not found in the arcade.
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hmmm.... well the SuperGrafx does not exactly match up to Capcom's CPS arcade hardware.
True, but Strider didn't come close to max'ing out the CPS system and mostly only used 2 BG layers.
Given SGX has twice the VRAM of the MD and twice the sprites of the PCE, it'd probably be a little more than barely better than the MD version - but if NEC AVE was doing the port themselves then you never know :lol:
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hmmm.... well the SuperGrafx does not exactly match up to Capcom's CPS arcade hardware.
True, but Strider didn't come close to max'ing out the CPS system and mostly only used 2 BG layers.
Given SGX has twice the VRAM of the MD and twice the sprites of the PCE, it'd probably be a little more than barely better than the MD version - but if NEC AVE was doing the port themselves then you never know :lol:
well okay, given the best possible candidate developer, I guess an impressive translation of Strider could've been done on the SGX, given that (thanks for reminding me) Strider arcade did not come close to max'ing the CPS hardware.
man, it really all makes me wish NEC and Hudson had come through with a real 16-bit monster of a system with almost Neo-Geo like power. instead of rushing out the SGX in 1989 as they did, they should've worked until late 1990 on a Super Famicom killer, as they were originally going to, and have a true PCEngine2.
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as well as on rom memory size compared to CPS roms. Strider arcade is between 32 and 43 megabits. the SGX Strider was going to be either 8 or 10 megabits. it would not have rivaled the arcade or even been close really. better than the Arcade Card CD, yes, but barely better than the Megadrive-Genesis rendition,
so a SGX is still a lot more powerful than a Duo with an arcade card?
anyone know where i can find specs or a breakdown of the supergrafx and ACD systems?
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as well as on rom memory size compared to CPS roms. Strider arcade is between 32 and 43 megabits. the SGX Strider was going to be either 8 or 10 megabits. it would not have rivaled the arcade or even been close really. better than the Arcade Card CD, yes, but barely better than the Megadrive-Genesis rendition,
so a SGX is still a lot more powerful than a Duo with an arcade card?
anyone know where i can find specs or a breakdown of the supergrafx and ACD systems?
the SuperGrafx was never "a lot" more powerful than the standard PC-Engine~TurboGrafx-16. I'd say conciderably more powerful.
The Duo with an Arcade Card does not give the Duo any more sprite pushing power than the PC-Engine, it's still 64 sprites and 1 background layer in hardware (software tricks allow parallax scrolling which even the NES could do) whereas the SuperGrafx can push 128 sprites and two background layers
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Damn, I saw the last post on the main index and figured handygrafx/supergrafxpcengine2 had started talking to himself again, but he's only responding to vestcoat.
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The weakest aspect of the PCE is the 16 sprite per scanline limit and the absent of a 2nd BG layer - though Xavier would probably consider the absent of tile flipping for the BG another one (and he's right too).
The SGX just has an additional VDC with it own 64k vram - video display controller which handles sprites/background, a VPC - video priority controller for setting sprites/tiles between VDC1 and VDC2, and an additional 24k of ram - 32k total compared to the PCE's 8k. The CPU(7.1mhz) and PSG(3.58mhz) are the same as the PCE except for the mysterious "A" revision. Looking at the ext. bus, the SGX could have even been an add-on to the PCE.
And Although the CPU is an 8bit CPU, it is faster than the SNES's 65812 16bit in 3.58mhz mode. Hell, they wouldn't have need to upgrade the CPU to a 16bit processor - just bump the speed to 10mhz or higher, keeping the developement cost down.
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The HuC6280 is faster than the 65816 used in the SNES because it clocks higher. The 65816 in 6502 emulation mode would have to have the same (or perhaps higher, not 100% sure on this one but there are rumoured to be some minor performance issues on a clock-for-clock basis between the 65C02 and the 65816 in 6502 emulation mode, some kind of overhead issue) clock rate to be on the same level as the HuC6280, and its 16 bit native mode doesn't quite keep up with the 7.16MHz mode of the HuC6280 (which is used while executing game code, 3.58MHz mode is typically only used for certain peripheral accesses, such as backup ram). But since both the HuC6280 and the 65816 are based in the WDC 65C02 processor, they're pretty comparable overall. Of course though, programming the 65816 in native mode gives you all kinds of advantages over the legacy 6502 architecture.
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programming the 65816 in native mode gives you all kinds of advantages over the legacy 6502 architecture.
True, it does have a handful of upgrades from the 65C02, but not much. It still doesn't have a multiply/divide instructions, you still have to clear the carry flag before adding(same for subtraction) :roll:, even though they are 16bit there still only 3 registers.
Almost every other feature they added to the 65816 from the 65C02 already existed in the Hu6280. The two new block transfer instruction( the PCE has 4), stow zero, push/pull all 3 registers to the stack, INC/DEC the accumulator register, as well as the improved JSR and branch instructions. Other than the increase of address bus (24bit vs 21bit) and the 16bit regs ala intel style (AH/AL), the Hu6280 is closer to the 65816 IMO.
3.58MHz mode is typically only used for certain peripheral accesses, such as backup ram).
The Hu6280 only has two speeds 7.1mhz and 1.79mhz (yes the magazines are wrong :) ) - games only used the 1.79mhz for backup ram access. The PSG is supposed to be based 7.1mhz as well, but according to Charles doc its actually 3.58mhz.
The SNES/SF version of the 65816 ran in 3.58mhz or 1.79mhz mode. If I remember correctly, this was because the game was running on a slow or fast rom - why didn't they use wait states?
All in all the 65816 is a waste of a CPU, but I have a feeling nintendo wanted to use it as developers wouldn't have a new learning curve
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Oh yeah, that's right...I forgot that it wasn't /6...my bad. :D
The branch fix was implemented in the original 65C02 architecture...so naturally, since both CPUs were based on it, both CPUs would have it. :D Also, remember that the features added to the HuC6280 in comparison to its 65C02 parent were added by Hudson, not MOS nor WDC, so naturally, since Hudson needed a more feature-laden chip, they made it more capable than stock processors in the 65xx family. The SNES' 65816, iirc, is a stock chip so you get what you get. :)
Nintendo has a history of being cheap and cutting corners whenever possible anyways...hrm...did they take lessons from Sony or was it the other way around? :D
Almost every other feature they added to the 65816 from the 65C02 already existed in the Hu6280.
True, but I was referencing the legacy 6502, not the HuC6280. :D
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True, but I was referencing the legacy 6502, not the HuC6280.
Hehe sorry about that, I just got carried away in the comparisons and lost track what was actually compared :lol:
I wonder though, which was developed first - the 65816(and 65802) or the Hu6280? Didn't the Apple II gs used the 65816 and that was back in '85/86, so the 65816 probably was before the Hu6280.
A strange coincidence that the PCE used an upgraded version CPU of the number one system at the time in Japan - NES and that it has a 1.79mhz mode - same speed as the NES?
did they take lessons from Sony or was it the other way around?
Ohh- below the belt hit to Sony and Nintendo :lol:
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You programmers know I can only understand so much of you're programming talk, but I still absolutely enjoy reading it and find it fascinating :D .
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some Japanese magazine articles on SuperGrafx Strider
(http://lscmainframe.topcities.com/images/screenshots/sgx_Sept90.jpg)
(http://lscmainframe.topcities.com/images/screenshots/sgx_Jan91.jpg)
(http://lscmainframe.topcities.com/images/screenshots/sgx_Sept91.jpg)
what a tease, using Arcade and-or X68000 screens, like EGM :P
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The game would have needed to be bigger than 8megs to be even close to the arcade version. Both 1941 and G&G suffer from not enough rom storage - evident in the tiles changed for pattern compression (the genesis version of strider suffers from this).
What mag are those scans from?
Wikipedia has Galaxy Force II listed as an unreleased prototype :? Verified by who?
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Awesome magazine scan, it looks like it could have some usefull information. Is it possible for anyone here to translate it? (No need for fancy photoshop stuff, just a straight down text translation posted here :) )
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HandyGrafx, do you have a higher res/less compressed version of sgx_Sept90.jpg image?
I can tell you those are probably not the arcade screens.
First level pic:(upside down strider)
That exact frame of Strider is not in the arcade version - I looked. Also the red sash blowing to the left of him in not the in arcade as well as the curved edges of the blades energy.
This part of the game in the arcade has 3 BG layers, but the pic is missing the stars BG layer - they would have shown out even in the dark photo graph as they are close to white.
The "time" text is there, but there is no time displayed in any of the pics - player has no points in any pic and player one 3 guys in all pics. Also the enemy holding the gun is missing the green visor around his eyes.
It hard to tell, but the green building in the background doesn't appear to have the arcades level of gradient (even with the pic being dark). I've done some Strider to PCE conversions of the backgrounds and sprites and this looks ver much like a 9bit palette conversion.
Moon pic:
Hmm, the pic with the moon has no stars - all the life bars in all the pics are red. The moon is much brighter and whiter than the arcade.
2nd level:(snow ledge)
The 2nd background layer in the snow ledge is in the wrong position in relation to the forground (BG 2 is too far up) - you can tell because there is only 1 broken stump like that in the snow ledge part - I used this as the maker.
I'm not saying this means those pics are from the SGX version, just not from any arcade version I know of.
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The game would have needed to be bigger than 8megs to be even close to the arcade version. Both 1941 and G&G suffer from not enough rom storage - evident in the tiles changed for pattern compression (the genesis version of strider suffers from this).
agreed.
as is evident from this comparison
Arcade
(http://www.photodump.com/direct/edgemagazine/GhoulsArcadeCrystal(600x450).jpg)
SuperGrafx
(http://www.photodump.com/direct/edgemagazine/sgxghoulsCrystal(600x450).jpg)
What mag are those scans from?
I don't know. I'm assuming it might be from Famitsu, or could be from a PCEngine magazine. not too familar with Japanese game mags :(
Wikipedia has Galaxy Force II listed as an unreleased prototype :? Verified by who?
not verified 100% but it's mentioned on a number of websites including The Strange And Rare Videogame Pics Page
Galaxy Force II was probably shown to the public in a very early stage of development and it was listed on many PC Engine magazines as a "Soon to be published" title.
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Some pics are taken from a monitor/tv and some look to be from a some sort of capture device. The one of the pics of the first level(the machine gunner) - right before the first boss, has some sort of graphic glitch to the left( right above the arrow) - not in the arcade either. The colors used for the BG tiles looks different in that pic(keeping in the mind the darkness of the pic).
Edit:
Ok, the Lightning/Electricity pic is also different - the 2nd BG in the wrong place as well and it is drawn a little different than the arcade.
I checked out the X68 version and status text is in a different area - not overlayed like in the pics, but in a black bar on top of the screen. Also the x68 has player 1 on the right, not the left. I've only played level 1, but I did notice the x68 isn't arcade perfect - missing color/less gradients in some areas. The x68 though is also missing the stars BG 3 layer. But does not have the curved edges of the blade white energy, nor does it have the exact upside down frame the pics.
So, I think it's safe to assume those pics are not from the arcade or the x68.
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Wow, that's incredible investigation on your part, Malcucci/Tomaithous. What other close-to-arcade Strider ports were there besides the X6800 version? If there are any others, it would have to be from this time period of that article in the PCE magazine, or else it couldn't compare with the screenshots found in the article. If the shots are not from the arcade original or x6800, where could these mysterious shots be from then? :D
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Whoa... thanks for posting these pix! I've been looking for these for a while!
Well, the last pic I can say for sure is from PC Engine Fan. I don't think it'd be much of a stretch to say that all the of pictures are from PCE Fan. The layout and text look the same to me.
Very rough (ie likely incorrect) translations follow...
The first pic basically talks about how the SGX should be able to accomplish the same things as the arcade ver (gamplay, big sprites, multiple bgs). They base this on the SGX hardware specs and the fact that Ghouls and Ghosts and Forgotten Worlds were decent translations. The upper right part of the pic says that SGX should be able to pull off large/detailed/multiple BGs due to the fact that there's another BG layer. "However, high quality BGs eat up a lot of memory."
Right above the page number is a note that says that the screenshots are the ones used for business purposes. Usually "business use" refers to the arcade version.
The second pic basically says that Strider is no longer a SGX only game but a PCE/SGX compatible card. The game is still scheduled to be 8Mb.
The last pic basically rehashes the first two pics but mentions that the characters would be smaller than the arcade version but everything should be in the game. Possible release is sometime next year (1992). "Current development status: 20%"
Personally, the only pic that looks like an actual arcade pic is the one with the the mechanized gorilla (third article). All the others look like mock-ups or prototype/pre-production versions. I'm betting that these are official promotional pics. Although I can't be sure, I could have sworn I've seen some of them before when the arcade version came out. Also, none of the articles claim to be posting PCE/SGX pix of the game. I don't think there was ever a picture anywhere of the SGX version.
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thanks for the translation. it should be noted that Forgotten Worlds never got released for the SuperGrafx, even though it was listed as TBA in import ads. maybe EGM said Forgotten Worlds was coming too, I don't remember.
of course, an 8-meg Strider on SuperGrafx could not have possibly come anywhere near close to being equal to the CPS arcade. arcade Strider is 32 meg at least, maybe 43 meg. Even if they doubled the rom storage to 16-meg for a SG version, it still could not have come close, though I'm sure a 'decent' version could've been made, ala Ghouls 'n Ghosts.
If only Hudson had made the Supergrafx equal or superior to the Sharp X68000 which was released the same year as the original PC-Engine, things would've been alot brighter for the future of the SuperGrafx.
my dream SGX:
specs: 68000 at 10-12 MHz. 256 sprites of 16x16 size on-screen.
4096 colors on screen at once out of a 65,536 palette.
128-256K main memory, 512K of VRAM, 3 or 4 background layers,
hardware scaling & rotation, 15 channels or more of audio,
ROM sizes of 16-meg and higher. 384x224 resolution minimum (like CPS)
late 1989 or early 1990 launch with: a Battle Ace game that rivals arcade
Galaxy Force , Ghouls 'n Ghosts, R-Type 2, Granzort.
with arcade quality Thunder Blade, Forgotten Worlds, OutRun, 1941
on the way for 1990 release, then Strider, Final Fight, Legendary Axe 3,
Super Shadow of the Beast and some RPGs and other games on the
way for 1991.
even if it still died by 1992, it gets at least 20 or more solid releases
with half or more being exact or near-exact arcade ports. and becomes
a truly worthwhile collectors system that justifies spending a few
hundred on the system and $100 per game.
/dream
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the only pic that looks like an actual arcade pic is the one with the the mechanized gorilla (third article).
I noticed that pic was different. Player 1 has 2 red bars of life instead of 3, it also has a score unlike the others, and the time shows 1:57. This would indicate a playable game. Whether it's an actually SGX/PCE playable/running demo screen shot or not, is the question. Notice the moiré effect from a monitor in the pic.
I really don't find it hard to believe that a prototype existed, albiet in a very early stage of developement. The first screen shots released were probably mock-ups running on the SGX hardware. Hell, wanna see a mock-up of Final Fight running on the SGX hardware?
Keranu wrote: , :D
Ditto, sooooo ditto.
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I noticed that pic was different. Player 1 has 2 red bars of life instead of 3, it also has a score unlike the others, and the time shows 1:57. This would indicate a playable game. Whether it's an actually SGX/PCE playable/running demo screen shot or not, is the question. Notice the moiré effect from a monitor in the pic.
Exactly. It's the only one that's different than the others. I personally don't believe it's a pic of the PCE/SGX ver, but that's just my opinion. The only reason I think that is because I believe the magazine would have stated that it was. Again, there's really no way of knowing for sure.
I really don't find it hard to believe that a prototype existed, albiet in a very early stage of developement. The first screen shots released were probably mock-ups running on the SGX hardware.
I agree with you about the prototype. It's likely that it existed in some form. Can we confirm that any of these pictures were generated on the SGX? I doubt it. However maybe we can compare the mech gorilla pic to the arcade ver. That pic seems well within the reach of SGX's capabilities. I have no doubt in my mind that the SGX could pull off Strider brilliantly given a competent programmer/team. It's the only way we'll see the game on SGX.
Hell, wanna see a mock-up of Final Fight running on the SGX hardware?
Sure. :) That reminds me... a number of years ago, I actually ripped all the Cody sprites from the arcade version and attempted to make a Final Fight demo of sorts on PCE. Never got very far. When it came to programming on the PCE, I realized I didn't know what the hell I was doing. :oops: :lol:
One day... one day.....
BTW, Another Strider mystery... supposedly the ACD version was supposed to have two extra stages. Of course there's only one. I wonder what the deal was with that.
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Sure. That reminds me... a number of years ago, I actually ripped all the Cody sprites from the arcade version and attempted to make a Final Fight demo of sorts on PCE. Never got very far. When it came to programming on the PCE, I realized I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
One day... one day.....
Haha, Nice! Do you have a PCE file of it?
Just the other day I was thinking how easy it would be to replace the main character from Riot Zone with Cody from Final fight - especially since the palette of both characters is similar.
PCE CDs are pretty easy to rip/change the tiles and sprites. I was planning to put up some tutorials sometime in the future(I tend to get sidetracked ).
Anyway, I'll post the mock-up soon :D . I have the building BG 2 layer converted, BG 1 layer (only one screen long) converted, and one frame of Guy and one enemy frame - just need to assemble it for SGX code.
Btw, did you use Magickit or HuC for you FF project?
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Here's an early Strider sprite test. VDC2 is disabled so it should run with magicengine, but since it uses 7mhz pixel clock, its better to view it with Mednafen for accuracy (magicengine work around - turn on full screen stretch).
http://pcedev.net/strider_sgx/str_sgx.pce
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Haha, Nice! Do you have a PCE file of it?
I might have it somewhere. But like I said, there wasn't much to see. Basically it just displayed one of the sprites.
Just the other day I was thinking how easy it would be to replace the main character from Riot Zone with Cody from Final fight - especially since the palette of both characters is similar.
That's what I noticed with the arcade ver of Cody. Only like 15 colors. Not sure if the colors would match up perfectly with the PCE's palette, but it looked pretty close to me.
PCE CDs are pretty easy to rip/change the tiles and sprites. I was planning to put up some tutorials sometime in the future(I tend to get sidetracked ).
I'd love to see those! I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in hacking some gfx. :)
Btw, did you use Magickit or HuC for you FF project?
Yeah. It was a really early version of HuC. I just downloaded the newest one so I might try my luck again. :)
Also, that's a pretty cool strider test screen. The colors match much better than the ACD version IMO.
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To write the tutorials, I need to find a utility that can do screen captures from full screen DOS apps. Any ideas?
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(http://pcedev.net/hacks/CD_C34AE3AE-009.png)
Hehe, just a test conversion for Cody sprite in Riot Zone. I used the Sega CD sprite.
Akamichi, did you find that test rom for FF project yet?
Edit: a litte better coloring on the sprite - still Sega CD sprite.
(http://pcedev.net/hacks/CD_C34AE3AE-019.png)
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Bonknuts - neat test of the Cody sprite. I notice the extra color immediately in the second picture.
it is SAD that Sega only gave the MegaDrive ~ Genesis the ability to put 64 colors on screen, when the arcade hardware it was sort of derived from (not directly based on), can put 4096 colors on screen.
PC-Engine was TOTALL ahead of MD-Gen in the amount of colors on-screen, and PCE is 1 year older.
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There's a nice convenient little detail when it comes to the MD/Genesis in relation to the PCE/TG...both machines use the same 9-bit palette base, with palette blocks split up in slots of 16 colours. In that respect, sprite graphics are easily portable between the two machines and they will look the same colour-wise. Of course, since the PCE has 16 said palette slots for sprites and the MD only has 2...well...that's another headache altogether.
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the PCE has 16 said palette slots for sprites and the MD only has 2...well...that's another headache altogether.
Nodtveidt you hit the nail on the head - right there! Atleast for me anyway. Working with 4 palettes of 16 colors is one thing, but only 2 16color palettes accessible for sprites - that really sucks.
The MegaDrive has few nicities that help make up for it though - 2 background layers (only 64k vram though), sprites as small as 8x8 (good for shooters) and as large as 32x32 with 80 on screen, wider sprites per scanline limit (20), mid scanline palette changes(wish PCE had this), mid frame sprite table changing, mid scanline BG position changing, and 64k system ram.
MegaDrive original games look good and hide the limitations of the system, but certain ports tend not to be as forgiving.
it is SAD that Sega only gave the MegaDrive ~ Genesis the ability to put 64 colors on screen, when the arcade hardware it was sort of derived from (not directly based on), can put 4096 colors on screen.
Considering the competition at the time and the current capabilities of the system, the Megadrive and PCE both were pretty advanced. I don't think they planned on either system lasting as long as they did - well atleast in NEC's case.
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The wider sprites-per-scanline limit coincides with the larger x-resolution, 320 pixels.
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Akamichi, did you find that test rom for FF project yet?
Actually, yes and no. Found the screen shots of cody but not the source code. However, I found another piece of code with a different sprite. :P
Let me clean it up a bit... actually, I just need to figure out how to change the background color. The sprite I have has a lot of black in it so it doesn't look right against a black background.
I'll play with it this weekend.
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I'd have loved to of seen a Super DUO (SuperGrafx + CD) and SGX games utilizing CDs. That Strider sprite test had the colors for Hiryu looking very close to the arcade.