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Tech and Homebrew => Turbo/PCE Game/Tool Development => Topic started by: touko on May 27, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
Title: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 27, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
Hi all, i have this in mind for a while ..
How 6280 can compete with Md 68k in performance ??? Of course in case of video game consoles, not in general use(like a computer) .
It seems that in bloc transfert ,the 68k is more capable (with more code of course) ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 28, 2013, 03:48:38 AM
The 68k is more capable in that it's easier to code for, is completely C friendly, has more options, is actually 16 bit, and is faster.
but, the CPU alone doesn't make the games. Graphics/Sound hardware comes into play.
That's why the PCE competes with the Genesis. The color options for the Genesis just blow.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 28, 2013, 05:16:03 AM
Yes of course, Md is limited by his 4 sub palettes, but his VPC is better than VDC in many points like : DMA, sprites/scanline (in h40 mode), number of sprites (also in H40 mode),and you can also use the Z80 in complement..
But my questions are especially on game logic .. IMO i think in this area,the 6280 can compete easily, but i don't know the 68k enough ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 28, 2013, 05:23:44 AM
But my questions are especially on game logic .. IMO i think in this area,the 6280 can compete easily, but i don't know the 68k enough ..
The 68k has a faster speed, and it's actually 16 bit, with more registers (unless you want to split hairs with the zero page shit on the 6502). Plus the instruction set is nicer than the 6502 and allows for less brain damaged coding, IMHO.
but, game logic speed alone is a bad comparison, as the CPU is also running the rest of the system. Even if it's faster, there are other things to consider.
the 68k is a higher end CPU in general. It's better.
EDIT: Just realized Md = Megadrive. I was reading that as M as in Motorola. Even so, the MD is still (slightly) faster than the PCE, and the code for game logic will likely execute faster because of the above stuff I just said.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 28, 2013, 05:44:41 AM
Thank you for the answer, and lol, yes Md is for megadrive, and i have forgot that it's genesis in us #-o ..
I asked this, because i thought the cycles/instruction was low compared to 6280, some instructions very used in a game like conditional tests, jump to subroutine, interruptions , and many others are faster on 6280 .. in addition if we take into account than work in byte is in many, many case faster than word,with faster ram acces ..
And do you think that gunstar hero push more on screen than sgx version of 1941 ???
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 28, 2013, 06:50:34 AM
I would say Gunstar Heroes is probably busier than 1941.
It's also a better game.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 28, 2013, 06:57:43 AM
Yes in fun area 1941 is a little boring, but it seemed more animated, with more different sprites on screen .
maybe i was wrong ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 28, 2013, 07:00:44 AM
1941 has more sprites, but it's generally less busy. Gunstar has all kinds of crap going on.
It's hard to say though because they are two different types of games.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: turbokon on May 28, 2013, 07:09:01 AM
You guys are speaking a whole different language then what I can understand:)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on May 28, 2013, 02:37:31 PM
If you are willing to go the assembly route hard-core, the zero page on the 6280 is what makes the CPU. That and low wait states for memory.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 28, 2013, 08:11:05 PM
If you are willing to go the assembly route hard-core, the zero page on the 6280 is what makes the CPU. That and low wait states for memory.
the zero page is also a bit braindamaged. I'd still say the 68k is faster and more flexible.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 28, 2013, 08:41:12 PM
Doesn't have the Pce an all around higher mips counr than the MD has? Sure that tells shit in the end about the actuall screen output.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on May 28, 2013, 10:26:40 PM
The 68000 was the best thing Motorola ever did. They should have stuck to that instead of making shitty cellphones.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 03:22:39 AM
The 68k is designed for workstations, this is why for exemple an interupt take 44 cycles, vs 8 for 6280 . A jsr/rts take 32 cycles vs 15 for 6280 .. They are many exemples like that, and these instructions are widely used in a game .
In fact i think everything is balanced between these two CPU .
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 29, 2013, 05:09:43 AM
How 6280 can compete with Md 68k in performance ??? Of course in case of video game consoles, not in general use(like a computer) .
It seems that in bloc transfert ,the 68k is more capable (with more code of course) ..
The 68k (the original 68000) processor is pretty slow. That is to say, the instruction cycle times are fairly lengthy. But it was the original; the very first model (1980 IIRC). From an hardware engineering perspective, it's a 16bit cpu (16bit ALU and hardware macro instructions, also microcoded). But a software engineering perspective, it's definitely a 32bit cpu. You have 32bit wide registers, you have opcodes read/write/modify 32bit wide data at a time, etc. The instruction cycle times are slow, but they're powerful at the same time. So it balances that out in general. Of all the old processors, the 68k reminds me a lot of the z80. Slower instruction times but a better ISA to compensate, hardware macro instructions (handling larger data element than the ALU size), doesn't hog the bus, etc.
Anyway, the 68k is soooo easy so code for. I'd probably recommend it for a beginner cpu for anyone looking to learn Assembly language. It's almost retarded proof. The performance difference between unoptimized assembly code and optimized code, isn't that great - IMO. Not compared to processors based on the 65x or even just 8bit in general. That's a bonus. Of course larger registers, number of registers, and flat memory model make it perfect for compilers. Though I think you mean how they compare in just optimized performance, so I'm going to assuming this question is for Assembly and not C or other such languages.
The 6280 is obviously based on and a branch of the 65xx processor. It's 2 revisions ahead and one branch off(6502->65c02->R65c02s \.. Huc6280). It's got some decent refinements. The 6280 (and 65x in general), shares some common design philosophies with RISC. Simple but fast instructions and hard wired VS microcoded. To do anything, you need to write quite a bit of code - compared to the 68k. Although that has more to do with date element sizes between the two. There's a up side and a downside to this. The up side is that you have a number of different approaches to optimizing your code because of the simpler instruction set. The downside is for the very same reason, optimization isn't so clear cut. Sure, you can do some basic rookie optimization, but I'm referring to the really crazing stuff (up to and including self modifying code). And there in lies another problem; convoluted code. Sure, it's fast but it's not very readable definitely very unflexible (complete re-write/re-design for small changes).
Anyway, for all the advantages and luxuries the 68k has over the 6280 (flat memory model, larger register size, more data reigsters) - that means little when your optimization came down to small localized segments of code (usually less that 1k). Things that are looped hundreds or thousands at a time. That is where optimization matters and the 6280 can keep up with the 68k and even surpass it, if you're willing to write some crazy ass code. That said, I think in general, everyday, normal type of coding - then the 68k is going to have an edge almost every time (i.e. Japanese developers really didn't optimize their code for speed. At least not from what I've seen personally, stepping through debuggers and not from what I've heard of other hackers doing NES stuffs). Great game design does not equate to efficient or optimized written code. Konami made some great games, but wrote some piss poor code.
I've written quite a few code between the 68k and the 6280. I'm not sure I have much of it anymore, because it was really for my own curiosity. But here's a small segment that has seemed to survived: http://pastebin.com/f76e312e0 (top is 68k, middle is 6280, bottom is 65816)
I had a discussion between Steve Snake and I, and a few others, about the 68k and 65816. The talk was about what processor could do what, better. The 6280 got an example or two, from a side discussion. In the end, the discussion only proved that really small examples out of context, really do nothing to prove or disprove the abilities of these processors over each other (the architectures are just so different). But in one example, I did prove that if you had put a 68k in the PCE - rather effects would take more cpu resource. The 68k has a very large cycle latency for interrupts (the base is 44 cycle + time to finish the instruction it's in the middle of) and RTI (hell, even RTS is slow). The 6280 is 7 cycle for the interrupt call (and must finish out the instruction, but 6280 instruction times are much smaller than 68k's) and RTI is faster too. And given the way the VDC in the pce works, you don't need to write a 16bit word to the VDC registers; they are buffer without a latch mechanism so you can update either lsb/msb at anytime. I used this on the 6280 code side to write some pretty fast code for a full screen/scanline hsync routine for both processors. 6280 came ahead with a pretty healthy lead. On the Genesis/MD, you don't use the hsync interrupt to do raster effects. There are tables in vram that you update during vblank. I can only assume because of this reason (VDP x and y must have a small timing window, since you can do column scrolling).
A few pet peeves with the 68k; some instruction times are long. JSR and RTS both are much longer than they need to be. Indexing on the 68k isn't free like on the 6380/65x/'816. That means small fast LUTs aren't really worth it (for non linear table access). If I'm doing sequential memory access on the 68k, I just manually add the based address with the offset and do self increment or such. It's faster than indexing. Memory alignment for word and long word elements (most emulators don't care, but the deal machine will generate an internal interrupt to handle the exception). No speed benefit for using 8bit/byte size elements. I'd mention slow instruction cycle times, but the instructions themselves are usually pretty powerful, so that mostly balances out. For a processor that is register based, 7 address vectors/registers is not enough (one is reserved for the stack). I've even find myself running out of Data registers too, in some routines. Pushing and popping from the stack isn't a big deal, but for some reason I always hated having to do that (even way back when I started with x86 asm). A set of 16 and 16 would have been better.
A few pet peeves with the 6280; wasted instructions. Clx, Cly, Cla. They save a byte, but are the exact same cycle length as simply ldx #$00, ldy #$00, lda #$00. Those instructions logic space could have been put to better use. No 16bit memory increment (would be nice for pointers, since ALL the address vectors are in ZP instead of internal register memory). No quick add; an inc by 2 and inc by 4 would be nice. And finally, at least 1 indirect long access port (self incrementing/decrementing). Not that you couldn't fix this by having it on cart or such (arcade card has four of these, at least for AC memory), but it would have been nice to have one in hardware. A few other small ones like inc A:X or such. SAX and SXY are almost useless because of the 3 cycle length. 2 cycle would made them more useful.
Other than that, I really have no problems with the 6280. When I need clear looking code, I use my custom macros for non speed critical segments. Make the code easier to read and scroll though. I love that fact that all of ZP can be used for address vectors. Having up 128 address vectors is quite nice, although I only tend to reserve about 32 pairs of bytes for addressing. What does it matter if it's in ram or not? It's an instruction like any other address vector instruction. If you don't like numbers, give them register names with equates (I use R0-R7 and A0-A7 most of the time). Hell, I even use D0-D7 for ZP equates.
On a related note I think the 6280 keeps up with the 68k, outside of optimization, because there isn't a real need for data elements larger than 8bit in game code. That is to say, there is a whole lot of bit testing, comparing, and branching that makes up a single frame/time slice (1/60th). The 68k receives no benefit from processing 8bit/byte wide data, but obviously the 6280 does. And so overall I think this is where you the two processors even out. Other things like adding/subbing an 8bit var to a 16bit data set, instead of 16bit<>16bit->16bit, also saves the 6280 some cycle time. The end result might need be 16bit/word based, but you save on cycles for working with an 8bit data against it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 05:58:08 AM
Wahou, very good analysis, i don't search a fight 68k vs 6280, i know that 68k is a great CPU, more flexible for multiples use than 6280, and for any one more easy to use .. I have no problem with 6280 assembly now, and i like it ... Of course i respect arkhan 's headaches with it ;-) ..
Tom i have already seen this interrupt code comparison on spritesmind, and I found it very interesting .. IMO the huge interrupt cycles consumption justify the existence of the Md scroll table ..
your last sentence responds to my question, that 6280 can compète with Md 68K in game code .. ;-)
Thanks you all for trying to give me an answer.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 29, 2013, 06:04:44 AM
I don't have an actual specifics, so I am speculating:
I would figure that if you're doing a lot of actual 16-bit operations, the 68k will out perform the 6280 because it's setup to do that better.
but if you're doing a bunch of 8 bit crap, they will be roughly the same. More so because the 6280 is superfast, compared to other 65xx variants. Sort of like using a pickup truck to carry a carton of eggs home. Works the same as a sedan. Have fun getting a couch home in the sedan, though.
EDIT: Also, Tom posted while I had half this post typed and didn't finish. He said something similar at the end. 68k doesn't benefit from processing 8 bit data.
However, depending what you are writing for a game, you will likely see >8 bit numbers in your game that you need to do things with.
Also, doing a raw 68k vs 6280 comparison doesn't amount to much when you consider what really makes the system operate are the other chips/things that the system can use to facilitate things.
You also have to consider that the two CPUs have different instruction sets/styles, and should not be approached the same.
If you make really contrived examples, you will probably find ways to say the 6280 is wildly faster. But, it will be for some goofy example that isn't very practical in a game, anyway.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 06:23:05 AM
Arkhan you'r right, i don't want a MD vs PCE, because like you have already said, a game machine is not only a CPU, and i think also what MD is better in general ..
My goal would be to compare MD with SGX to be fair .. I think Tom came to the same conclusion, that 6280 can compete with MD cpu even his higher frequency .. obviously only in the case that concerns us: the game ..
And except sprite/line limit,i think, a game like gunstar hero is doable in term of sprites animation on PCE ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 29, 2013, 06:29:18 AM
even a straight 6280 vs 68k comparison isn't totally fair since the two aren't in the same league. You'd be better off doing 65816 vs 68k, and watching the argument that ensues. :)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 06:34:25 AM
Of course arkhan, but do you know a console with a 65C816 @7 mhz ?? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 29, 2013, 06:37:41 AM
Nope. The 65816 blew. :)
lol
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 06:53:59 AM
LOL
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 29, 2013, 07:53:03 AM
Surprisingly, the 6280 can keep up with the 68k on quite a few 16bit stuffs. Sometimes coming very closet to matching it, other times beating it. But like stated before, comparing snippets of code between these two processors isn't exactly representative; even simple addition comparisons.
(6280) lda <$01;4 clc;2 adc <$02;4 sta <$01;4 lda <$03;4 adc <$04;4 sta <$03;4. 24+2 = 26
That's just a memory+memory->memory operation; 16bit+16bit->16bit. The 6280 beats it by 2 cycles. I used ZP on the 6280, but I also used the MD's fast access mode ram (top half of the 32k) for faster accessing too. Not exactly the same, but fairly close in principal (if you treat certain ZP variables as ram instead of data regs). If you have a matrix of variables that need to be added to a single value (say like moving a series of linked objects), the 6280 automatically gets free indexing and such. I had quite a few examples of 16bit operations, and even when the 6280 was slower cycle wise - it was still pretty close. And of course if the operation is 8bit+16bit->16bit instead of a full 16bit operation, the 6280 gets a nice little speed up there (a branch to skip on non overflow detection). This isn't to take away from the 68k's 16bit operationally ability (it can do quite a few fancy 16bit things), it's just to show that different between one being 8bit and the other being 16bit isn't as drastic as it seems.
Of course if you design the game logic specifically around the 6280 strengths, it'll scream along no problem. The key is high level optimization in design along with low level optimizations. This might limit you in game design slightly, but the player/gamer will never know. The 68k is more flexible and robust overall, while the 6280 is extremely fast at more specific/narrow-focused designs.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 29, 2013, 08:53:27 AM
yeah i think so .. I have a discussion about this with stef (the creator of gens), but he's too fanboy, nothing is better than MD and his CPU .. Of course it's a great machine, and his VPC is very ,very, good ..
And I'm a little annoyed by this urban legend,where if a CPU is 16 bit, then it's alway better than a 8 bit . I took as an example of a 256 bytes increment, a common use to increment a pattern on a 32*32 pixels sprite ,to show how fast the 6280 can be in 16 bit data processing using the 8 bit LSB/MSB feature .. This kind of processing is very common in games of this era .. i think also that 8 bit variables are the most common.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 29, 2013, 10:41:12 AM
It's not that it's "better" speed wise. It's that it's more capable. Like I said before, a truck and a car can both take some eggs home, but the car sure has problems getting a couch home...
It can do much more with itself than an 8-bit CPU. Imagine if Amiga kept going with 6502 CPUs like what was in the C64.
The Amiga would've been a joke. :)
For game consoles, the CPU almost barely matters in the end, because the other hardware decisions are what truly make or break the consoles.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 29, 2013, 02:38:33 PM
I'm just thrilled there is not a test on this later as my head exploded!! Frankly you guys could be BS'ing and i would have no idea LOL. For all i know you just described the processing power of a frosted flake when it interfaces with a bowl of milk :)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on May 29, 2013, 04:12:35 PM
It's not that it's "better" speed wise. It's that it's more capable. Like I said before, a truck and a car can both take some eggs home, but the car sure has problems getting a couch home...
It can do much more with itself than an 8-bit CPU. Imagine if Amiga kept going with 6502 CPUs like what was in the C64.
The Amiga would've been a joke. :)
Yes of course, but you're taking extreme cases .. 68K is perfectly designed for a workstation, and of course is well suitable for a home computer, better than a 6280, in this case 6502 is out of competition .
Quote
For game consoles, the CPU almost barely matters in the end, because the other hardware decisions are what truly make or break the consoles.
I agree with that, and how many people said "Snes has a crappy CPU " ??, yes snes has also very slow main RAM, but very impressive hardware too .. When you have good copros, you don't need (usualy) a fast CPU ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 29, 2013, 11:14:11 PM
This argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on May 30, 2013, 01:02:26 AM
Here we go again. :roll:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 01:07:07 AM
Sprites animation on earthworm jim is perfectly doable on PCE, can not on hucard due to his space limit, but not in point of view of PCE hardware .. PCE can transfert datas to VRAM even screen is not in vblank at full speed (or close).
At this point, the MD is more limited, the huge majority of transfers occur in vblank, where his DMA transfers are optimal .
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on May 30, 2013, 01:16:13 AM
Sprites animation on earthworm jim is perfectly doable on PCE, can not on hucard due to his space limit, but not in point of view of PCE hardware .. PCE can transfert datas to VRAM even screen is not in vblank at full speed (or close).
At this point, the MD is more limited, the huge majority of transfers occur in vblank, where his DMA transfers are optimal .
He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.
I wish I were being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 01:28:24 AM
Man I had all three systems in the day. Idk why my opinion is being dismissed. Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor. The MD was given a lot more tools to work with. It lacks color.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on May 30, 2013, 01:29:40 AM
This is an argument I've been rehashing for months. Look at the roms I have and ignore what the system is capable of. MD games are impossible for me to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really cute and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but I can be fooled by simple tricks. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses which I cherry pick to acknowledge. In my experience, I have only seen the PCE do shooters. The md certainly hand-draws cartoons better, and the snes has more RPGs in english. It was an amazing time that I missed out on, or so I am told, as all systems were said to be so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between NES and SMS. When push comes to shove you could see Sapphire on the MD or Lords of Thunder, without any noticeable sacrifices.
Man I had all three systems in the day. Idk why my opinion is being dismissed. Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor. The MD was given a lot more tools to work with. It lacks color.
Only the parts of your opinions which dismiss and ignore all presented facts. See this latest comment for example. Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 30, 2013, 01:51:43 AM
Yeah sapphire is just a shewty, therefore pce can obviously handle it well. If it were another genre than a shewty, it would be plain shoddy because pce only can handle shewties well..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 02:01:58 AM
Yes of course, but you're taking extreme cases .. 68K is perfectly designed for a workstation, and of course is well suitable for a home computer, better than a 6280, in this case 6502 is out of competition .
Not quite extreme. The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out. Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.
So it really just depends what kind of game you're making. What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference. :)
Quote
I agree with that, and how many people said "Snes has a crappy CPU " ??, yes snes has also very slow main RAM, but very impressive hardware too .. When you have good copros, you don't need (usualy) a fast CPU ..
Yeah the 65816 is a giant piece of crap, but the rest of the SNES pulls it together for some excellent games. Contra 3 is no laughing matter! :)
There are some things the MD does well/easily that the PCE doesn't do as well. One of those things is multiple background layers. Earthworm Jim is possible on PCE, sure. However, the game would likely lose something in the mix. You'd have to blow a lot of sprites to fake the layers in a game like that.
PC Engine's strong suits are color depth, and moving a lot of large sprites around, easily. Sprite animation has nothing to do with the hardware in this case. It's just whoever drew it. All the animation you see on MD games can happen on the PCE, provided someone draws it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on May 30, 2013, 03:57:06 AM
He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.
I wish I were being sarcastic.
LOL ..
I do not mean to be a pce fanboy, but there are some points where Md is better than PCE, and IMO not for CPU ..
It should not be a general CPU usage, because the main use is the game, and assembly was the main language, the c was trivial in professional studios.
The MD has lots of strengths over the PCE and vice versa, just as the SNES has strengths and weaknesses that balance out overall with the MD & PCE. But ever since evilevolx first declared that he "has all the roms", yet was unfamiliar with most games, he has been preaching that the PCE and its games are not in the same class as the MD and SNES and that it is instead in the higher end of the 8-bit generation.
It's pretty bad when you end up with everyone in a Genesis forum arguing against your Genesis>PCE opinions. It's even crazier to think that you'd find any more support for them here.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 04:07:08 AM
Not quite extreme. The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out. Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.
So it really just depends what kind of game you're making. What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference. :)
Yes in RPG 68k is the best thing, for a programmer point of view, more easy and less brainwashing to manipulate 16bit datas .. In this case, C was also the good choise to decrease time development,and 68k is perfectly suitable .
Quote
Yeah the 65816 is a giant piece of crap, but the rest of the SNES pulls it together for some excellent games. Contra 3 is no laughing matter! :)
Some other exemples, are super aleste, ans rendering ranger R2
Quote
There are some things the MD does well/easily that the PCE doesn't do as well. One of those things is multiple background layers. Earthworm Jim is possible on PCE, sure. However, the game would likely lose something in the mix. You'd have to blow a lot of sprites to fake the layers in a game like that.
Of course I have not mentioned the second layer ,but this not a determining factor in sprites animation,but but you will probably lose it .
Quote
PC Engine's strong suits are color depth, and moving a lot of large sprites around, easily. Sprite animation has nothing to do with the hardware in this case. It's just whoever drew it. All the animation you see on MD games can happen on the PCE, provided someone draws it.
Yes i think so, this is the strong department of this machine, colors and sprites moving, but his sprites limit is very low for a certain kind of games, like beats them all. I think also that SGX can manage a very good version of earthworm jim, better than MD,except for underwater level and his vertical scroll/2 tiles .
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 30, 2013, 04:11:22 AM
What we need is an interactive growth chart with a penis representing each of the different consoles. everytime someone speaks in favor of one of the consoles, the penis's start throbbing and popping up and down. Up when the comments have some sort of factual information behind them, and down when its just utter fanboy bullshit. This way, people would be careful what they say so that they don't wind up with a tiny penis..........ummmm.........console :wink:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on May 30, 2013, 04:21:54 AM
Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?
This.
Otherwise, it's a very interesting topic. I used some assembly language on the Amiga, so I get the general gist of the conversation, but it's fascinating.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 30, 2013, 04:51:19 AM
This argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
:roll:
And yet the MD/Genesis couldn't give you a decent copy of BomberMan, Fatal Fury 2, Fatal Fury Special, or Art of Fighting to save its own life. Dracula X is far better then Bloodlines hoped to be, visually or otherwise. Snatcher, better looking on PCE. Raiden, better on PCE. This happens to be the case with most games, including all the arcade ports, that were on both systems, and there are plenty of games on PCE that are visually more appealing then Ranger X. Ranger X is mostly standard fare for the Genesis in its later life, with a few neat tricks in spots but honestly a lot of smaller to average sprites, dull looking colors and boring enemies and sub par audio. It's also another one of those titles that could have been done on on PCE, esp if on Super Cd. Yeah you'd lose the background scrolling, but f*ck it, who cares. The sprites and over all detail and color in the game could have been improved, and over all that is more important.
The Genesis was a great system for being able to move a lot of stuff around the screen fast background wise. Regardless of that, a lot of the crap did not look that great as a whole. Low colors and a rough look are common among even the top tier Genesis titles, and Earthworm Jim is def not that impressive. Tiny to average sprites and a lot of filler spaces in the background art where there is no actual details. Other then the scrolling going on in the background, the game could have been done on PCE, with cleaner, better looking sprites for that matter. The sprite animation could have been handled fine. If you are going to name a game that really holds its own still on the Genesis, pick something like Lightning Force, Shinobi III or Sonic 2, but def not Ranger X or Earthworm Jim.
I'm not really going to go into the sound, people have their own preferences on that, and both systems are able to generate great music and voices when the right programmers are handling it. In the end though don't just assume that because it wasn't done on PCE that it simply can't be done. You may have to ditch some background scrolling, sure, but that is not what makes the game fun or over all visually appealing (and push come to shove, the PCE does have its own nifty tricks up its sleeve, see Vasteel or Metamor Jupiter for a couple of examples). Most everything else the PCE does better, hands down. And back onto Earthworm for a sec, the only reason Earthworm Jim didn't even get a TG16 release was because Interplay/Shiney did not support Nec systems.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 05:06:11 AM
Genesis did get some vibrant games, but they were few/far between. Most games look all dingy. It's like the 16 bit Commodore 64. Dithery and muddy.
Contra Hard Corps, Rocket Knight and Ristar are 3 I can think of offhand that looked excellent.
but look at stuff even like Phantasy Star 3. It's super dithered. PCE RPGs dwarf that stuff.
Hard Corps is arguably better than Alien Wars, but it really depends on preference/mood.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 30, 2013, 05:15:38 AM
Yeah well I think Hard Corps looks like crap other then the special fx. You can barely even call it a full screen game because of the dumb ass large black status bar. I will take Contra 3 over it any day of the week. Ristar was good, as was Dynamite Heddy. Rocket Knight was also a good one.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 30, 2013, 05:29:22 AM
while harcorps is a very good and fun bringing game with tons of action and neaty tricks, still some of its BGs looking like escaped from an average NES game.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 05:34:03 AM
Yeah, the HUD sucks in Hard Corps. I didn't think the graphics looked too bad, when you consider that its a genesis game.
I thought about it a little more, and these are ones I remember looking pretty nice:
Ecco the Dolphin 1 and 2 (duh) Blaster Master 2, though looking at it again, it's kind of bland in alot of places. all the Sonic games (I mean that's kind of a given, I guess) Comix Zone Flashback Pirates of Dark Water
But, if I think of SNES and PCE games, the list kinda just keeps going. Easily, too.
Some of the most widely loved Genesis games look like shit.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 06:09:08 AM
This argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
Says the man who's lacks any real understanding or even experience coding for these systems. I *know* that you are here just to troll. Go back to Sega16, please.
The PCE hucard setup lacks system ram. 8k is enough to handle all variables, but it's no where near enough to decompress and keep graphics in a buffer for fast access (like the Genesis and SNES). Thus piss poor compression schemes used and minimal animation. I've seen quite a few hucards store graphics in 8 color tile format (sprites and bg tiles) to save on space. The PCE was originally setup for 32k (you can see the evidence as the first 8k bank is mirror on the next three banks. The supergrafx actually fills those slots), and it that would have helped tremendously in using schemes like LZ compression BITD (like Genesis and SNES did).
The PCE doesn't lack speed (game logic speed is faster than the snes and about even with the Genesis). The PCE doesn't lack vram bandwidth; it can write to vram during all of active display (if vblank isn't enough). It does have block transfer instructions which are essentially dma 'instructions' (while not as fast the snes DMA or Genesis DMA, it's a hell of a lot faster than any manual copy method and the previous 8bit game platforms lacked this). The PCE doesn't lack VRAM; it has the same as the Genesis and SNES. Matter of fact, the PCE vram layout is like the Genesis in that it's pretty flexible as where to put stuff (tiles/sprites/SAT); unlike the snes that's more rigid in it's layout. The PCE's sprite scanline limit is also inline with the other two systems. The sprites can be any of the different sizes on screen like the Genenis and unlike the snes that's limited to only 2 sprite sizes per screen.
The PCE being the first system out, of the next generation, does lack a few things compared to system that came out *afterwards*. And the second BG layer is pretty much the only thing to stand out. If you want to criticize the PCE, do it for that. Not all this other bullshit.
Anyway, I thought this was supposed to be processor vs processor, and not game console vs game console. Let's get back on track.
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Not quite extreme. The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out. Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.
So it really just depends what kind of game you're making. What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference. Smile
Even if you gave the 68k the full benefit of doubt and said all 16bit operations are faster, how many 16bit operations do you have to execute per 1/60 frame in relation to everything else? I would think an RPG would be the lowest; it'd not like you're going to be hitting those on 1/60th frame basis (at least not for turn base RPGs).
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Some other exemples, are super aleste, ans rendering ranger R2
The '816, even with its hindering 8bit data bus, would smoke both the 6280 and the 68k at the same clock speed. Even with the 8bit data bus, the '816 is faster at both 16bit and 32bit math cycle wise. But if the '816 had a model with a full 16bit data bus, it would just be stupidly crazy fast.
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Yes i think so, this is the strong department of this machine, colors and sprites moving, but his sprites limit is very low for a certain kind of games, like beats them all.
I understand the 16 wide sprite cell setup on the pce, but it wouldn't have been that hard for have a 'half flag' in the SAT that would treat all sprites as 16x8 instead of 16x16. That goes a long way IMO. But that said, MD has a much better sprite size setup (smaller is better in this case) for beatem ups. But if you designed a beatem up from the ground up, you can get something better than Crest of the Wolf/Riot Zone. Check this out: (http://www.pcedev.net/pics/SOR_exm_1.png) All the sprites have been resized to 32 width segments (the top half are offset from the legs). Right there, that's seven 32 wide sprites per scanline. It's not busting the scanline limit. Of course, you wouldn't be fighting all 7 at once; take a note from the SOR2 and SOR3 games - move sprites to the top and bottom and have them wait (sometimes the game even moves them off screen). Also have them fall back really far (almost all the way off screen), etc. SOR2 and more so with SOR3, plays really dirty with the AI to keep the sprite scanline limit down.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 06:23:25 AM
Even if you gave the 68k the full benefit of doubt and said all 16bit operations are faster, how many 16bit operations do you have to execute per 1/60 frame in relation to everything else? I would think an RPG would be the lowest; it'd not like you're going to be hitting those on 1/60th frame basis (at least not for turn base RPGs).
That's why I said you wouldn't even notice the speed difference.
You'd notice it in action games, depending what exactly it is you're doing. If you have an action RPG, depending how you have planned out your character system, it might do something for you.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 07:10:57 AM
Yes MD sprites size is the most flexible of the 3, and made for saving VRAM, and maximise sprites on screen . His sprites limit is also very good in h40 mode, by 20 (16 pixels) sprites/scanline . With this, a conversion of final fight is more easy ..
I tried to think how doing a good browler on PCE, and I came to the conclusion that the best compromise would be a base of 32*48 pixels sprites, for pushing max sprites on screen,and compensate for the small size by more variety in the movements .
But no doubt that the 6280 can handle a FF sprite size, with 5/6 sprites on screen at same time, and all the game logic,he is powerfull enough .
We discussed with stef about bloc transfers, and it seems that 68k is very more efficient than 6280 in this department . A peek of 2.2 cycles /bytes, and an average of 4.3 cycles for the 68k.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 08:03:46 AM
This is an argument I've been rehashing for months. Look at the roms I have and ignore what the system is capable of. MD games are impossible for me to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really cute and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but I can be fooled by simple tricks. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses which I cherry pick to acknowledge. In my experience, I have only seen the PCE do shooters. The md certainly hand-draws cartoons better, and the snes has more RPGs in english. It was an amazing time that I missed out on, or so I am told, as all systems were said to be so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between NES and SMS. When push comes to shove you could see Sapphire on the MD or Lords of Thunder, without any noticeable sacrifices.
Man I had all three systems in the day. Idk why my opinion is being dismissed. Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor. The MD was given a lot more tools to work with. It lacks color.
Only the parts of your opinions which dismiss and ignore all presented facts. See this latest comment for example. Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?
Butt-hurt? Sorry you feel that way :/
I have the express, the tg16 and now the duo r. I forgot how much Bloody Wolf looks like Gunstar;). The 6800 is more powerful SND can do more. As stated in previous threads the PCE can run 8bit data really well but in comparison to the md with 16/32bit stuff it falls behind. You are not gona run Resq on the PCE. Keep ignoring those facts?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 08:10:29 AM
Oh please, ResQ is doable on the PCE.
and, its the 68000. Not the 6800
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
This argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
:roll:
And yet the MD/Genesis couldn't give you a decent copy of BomberMan, Fatal Fury 2, Fatal Fury Special, or Art of Fighting to save its own life. Dracula X is far better then Bloodlines hoped to be, visually or otherwise. Snatcher, better looking on PCE. Raiden, better on PCE. This happens to be the case with most games, including all the arcade ports, that were on both systems, and there are plenty of games on PCE that are visually more appealing then Ranger X. Ranger X is mostly standard fare for the Genesis in its later life, with a few neat tricks in spots but honestly a lot of smaller to average sprites, dull looking colors and boring enemies and sub par audio. It's also another one of those titles that could have been done on on PCE, esp if on Super Cd. Yeah you'd lose the background scrolling, but f*ck it, who cares. The sprites and over all detail and color in the game could have been improved, and over all that is more important.
The Genesis was a great system for being able to move a lot of stuff around the screen fast background wise. Regardless of that, a lot of the crap did not look that great as a whole. Low colors and a rough look are common among even the top tier Genesis titles, and Earthworm Jim is def not that impressive. Tiny to average sprites and a lot of filler spaces in the background art where there is no actual details. Other then the scrolling going on in the background, the game could have been done on PCE, with cleaner, better looking sprites for that matter. The sprite animation could have been handled fine. If you are going to name a game that really holds its own still on the Genesis, pick something like Lightning Force, Shinobi III or Sonic 2, but def not Ranger X or Earthworm Jim.
I'm not really going to go into the sound, people have their own preferences on that, and both systems are able to generate great music and voices when the right programmers are handling it. In the end though don't just assume that because it wasn't done on PCE that it simply can't be done. You may have to ditch some background scrolling, sure, but that is not what makes the game fun or over all visually appealing (and push come to shove, the PCE does have its own nifty tricks up its sleeve, see Vasteel or Metamor Jupiter for a couple of examples). Most everything else the PCE does better, hands down. And back onto Earthworm for a sec, the only reason Earthworm Jim didn't even get a TG16 release was because Interplay/Shiney did not support Nec systems.
I’m sorry we are AGAIN going to ignore the CD memory storage (yes I know it’s just a CD and no power added except tehzz biosessez) and the fact that some games get bad ports? Are we to judge the TG-16 based upon Bravo-Man or the pile of shit we westerners were given? Everyone is quick to make excuses for that plague of shit and everyone looks passed that. So I say we get to look passed piles of shit on the MD as well and there are bad PORTS but you mean to tell me a game like UMK3 would run as well, with as much animation and speed, and proper sound FX; dreaming. Even using the CD the loads alone would kill the game.
Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no f*cking way. Way too much going on.
Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness. What excuse is there? Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD? Look how choppy and darty the animation is? The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card. And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?
How can this game be improved, seriously? It can't do these style of games well so play on strengths. Shooters, well all know the PCE does shooters. I've been hammering my way through a stack of PCE SUper CD versions and great games.
More Apples to Apples?
I have Street Fighter for all systems (16-bit) The PCE is VERY slow in running the game in comparison to the MD. Prolly has something to do with the fact that the MD can handle more sprites and animation on screen than the PCE. Just keep ignoring that. Of course the MD could handle the ports with a CD add-on but it’s unfair since the Sega CD is so much more powerful so again I point to Dynamite Headdy and Earthworm Jim. Direct comparisons are hard to make but try to keep the games within the same years. Sonic 2 Vs. Bonk; really? Mascot crazes was all there was back then, Mario, Sonic, Bonk. They went toe to toe back then but the level of game play, depth of game play, and just the quality Bonk took a back seat.
Music? Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD. The animation? Maybe but with so many dynamic tiles to pick up the slack you’ll hit a limit faster. Colors? Duh.
Ranger X is standard indeed except when you rule out the fluidity, that much crap going on is not going to handle well on the PCE; sorry. Did you ever play that game? The controls alone are amazing. Back in the day when reading game mags I always thought the SNES was superior (sales wise it was ;) ) when looking at screen shots. What I failed to do is play the game. Writhe with slowdown and poor controls. Great still sprites. Flash back to Ranger X. The speed the game runs at, the depth of color (For the MD) is amazing and shade and highlight tricks bring it up to acceptable standards but obviously not PCE standards.
Oh and this level, not gona happen on the PCE, sorry. (http://i54.tinypic.com/1rrclz.png)
Not gonna do Alien Soldier, not gona get a lot of Mega Drive games without sacrifice. It'll look watered down like Altered Beast. So many excuses flying around. Later games are the biggest excuse, how is a systems success in the market place an issue? I mean seriously how can a game from 1995 be excluded when the Turbo had games in 1995?
I will agree with one thing though, there is a LOT of Shit on the Mega Drive, almost as much as the TG16 Western Releases, the pile of sports crap alone is enough to choke a horse. I see the Mega Drive as a superior system, and don't take that negatively but it can just do more stuff grafically intensive stuff. Can you really imagine Vector man running just as well? No? Me neither. RESQ? Nope. Certainly in the sound FX Dept very scratchy and lacks clarity on the PCE. Not saying the MD hasn’t any shit-fests on it’s sound chips but when done right the sound just pumps absolute clarity. One listen to Dynamite Headdy or Street of Rage and you can’t imagine that quality coming from the PCE unless CD. The Westerns certainly chose the MD did, the Japanese did not. The MD owned the States and Europe, the PCE won Japan until unseated by the SNES.
Thanks again!!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 08:43:54 AM
We discussed with stef about bloc transfers, and it seems that 68k is very more efficient than 6280 in this department . A peek of 2.2 cycles /bytes, and an average of 4.3 cycles for the 68k.
I'm assuming this is cpu only and not DMA from the VDP of the MD. Here's what I got:
memory->port copy: @loop move.l (a0)+,(a1) ;20 cycles. 20/4=5 cycles a byte. If the port is 32bits wide dbra d0,@loop ;10 cycles for each branch, 14 cycles for last no branch.
;(20+10)/4= 7.5 cycles a byte. If the port is 32bits wide
@loop move.w (a0)+,(a1) ;12 cycles. 12/2=6 cycles a byte. If the port is 16bits wide dbra d0,@loop ;10 cycles for each branch, 14 cycles for last no branch.
;(12+10)/2= 11 cycles a byte. If the port is 16bits wide
@loop move.b (a0)+,(a1) ;12 cycles. 12/1=12 cycles a byte. If the port is 8bits wide dbra d0,@loop ;10 cycles for each branch, 14 cycles for last no branch.
;(12+10)/1= 22 cycles a byte. If the port is 8bits wide
Note: doesn't include setup time to load source and destination regs
6280:
TII,TDD ;6 cycles a byte TIN,TIA,TAI ;6 cycles a byte (assuming not VDC destination)
Note: doesn't include setup time to load source and destination regs If we did apples to apples comparison to block transfer, a 16bit port write, then the 6280 comes out ahead. I showed port write examples on the MD side, but memory->memory transfer is the same size for all data elements that I posted in the example because MD can do (An)+,(An)+ without extra over head of the second port increment. Of course, the 6280 has no penalty for memory to memory copies either. The 6280 even comes out ahead for 32bit memory->memory copies as well.
Of course, you can bring down the overhead of the DBra by expanding the loop - but then you must adhere to the block copy segments (i.e. if it's 10 unrolled move.l then data transfer must be a multiple of 10 (long,word, or byte); no more or no less). If you unrolled the copy loop on the 68k side so that DBra is less than 1 cycle, then the 68k is only 1 cycle faster per byte copy to the 6280 (5 vs 6).
But if you're gonna do something akin to unrolling a loop, MOVEM.L would be a better option:
@loop movem.l (a5),d0-d6/a0-a4 ; 8+(12*8) = 104 adda.l #12,a5 ; 6+8 = 14 movem.l d0-d6/a0-a4,(a6)+ ; 12+(12*8)= 108 dbra d7,@loop ;10 cycles for each branch, 14 cycles for last no branch.
;104+108+14+10 = 236 cycles. 12 long words = 48 bytes. 236/48 = 4.9166 cycles per byte.
Note: doesn't include setup time to load source and destination regs
That's the max size I could transfer: 48 bytes (12 long word regs); 4.9166 cycles per byte.
You need one reg for the counter, one reg for the source address, one reg for the destination address and the stack is already taken with A7. And if your data chunk size needs to be less than that, the cycle count per byte goes up from there. What did stef post for memory moving code? Btw, I like stef. Stef's a good guy, but he's definitely a 68k fan and a little bit on the biased side (don't want to say fanboy, because I don't want to insult him).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 08:59:25 AM
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... [some bullshit]
One, you don't know shit. All you do is look at games and determine the systems abilities. You have no clue what limitations any of these systems have, you just talk out your ass. Even Sega fans on Sega16 have corrected you on your ignorant ass assumptions of what any of these consoles can do, let alone the PCE/TG16. So w(hy)TF are you even here? This is a technical discussion about two processor; nothing else. You have NOTHING to contribute; so GTFO. Go post your bullshit in some other thread (make a new one or hijack some other thread).
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I have Street Fighter for all systems (16-bit) The PCE is VERY slow in running the game in comparison to the MD. Prolly has something to do with the fact that the MD can handle more sprites and animation on screen than the PCE. Just keep ignoring that. Of course the MD could handle the ports with a CD add-on but it’s un-fare since the Sega CD is so much more powerful so again I point to Dynamite Headdy and Earthworm Jim.
SF2 runs slow? You mean because it's NOT turbo edition and therefore does not have the speed adjustment? The PCE doesn't struggle to run SF2. I looked into the game. I hacked the game to run animation for both characters at 60fps (a character update on every frame; not the stock ~12fps). So the PCE can easily transfer to vram; it's not limited there. I hacked the game logic to perform two frames into a single NTSC; that's 120fps. But not just game logic, but everything; line scrolls, map updating, frame updating, two channel sample playing an decompression - all the stuff it wouldn't normally have to do to run twice as fast. The game didn't slow down. Not to mention the CPU, the only cpu in the system, is doing other stuff the MD 68k is not doing; it's playing samples on TWO channels, as well as decompressing them in realtime (which takes up cpu resource). Dude, you don't know anything about anything.
This discussion is about what's capable, not what was done. The PCE is much more capable that what most software for it, leads you to believe. If you don't want to believe that, then fine - but you have no understanding or experience to argue otherwise. All you do is troll bullshit about the PCE (on other forums and now you bring it here).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 09:16:50 AM
He meant that the MD is better at hand-drawing with pencils than the PCE.
I wish I were being sarcastic.
LOL ..
I do not mean to be a pce fanboy, but there are some points where Md is better than PCE, and IMO not for CPU ..
It should not be a general CPU usage, because the main use is the game, and assembly was the main language, the c was trivial in professional studios.
The MD has lots of strengths over the PCE and vice versa, just as the SNES has strengths and weaknesses that balance out overall with the MD & PCE. But ever since evilevolx first declared that he "has all the roms", yet was unfamiliar with most games, he has been preaching that the PCE and its games are not in the same class as the MD and SNES and that it is instead in the higher end of the 8-bit generation.
It's pretty bad when you end up with everyone in a Genesis forum arguing against your Genesis>PCE opinions. It's even crazier to think that you'd find any more support for them here.
Here we go, we all forget to list the MAIN ingredient. FUN. Which was a better system, the NES or the Atari Jaguar? You can argue Bits and bloops till teh cows came home but the NES rules.
We all forget the fun factor some times. Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner. I've played the games, they are fun, stop it. You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit. Nobody seems to get their head around that.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 09:22:12 AM
Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no f*cking way. Way too much going on.
There's not that much going on in Sonic 2. Outside of the fancy bonus levels, double layers, and the fast speed. You can do the fast speed stuff on the NES, for shits sake, dude.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness. What excuse is there? Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD? Look how choppy and darty the animation is? The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card. And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbtBjYPsOgk
Apples To Apples? Well then how about you compare the card version of Altered Beast, instead of the CD one. That seems like a solid idea. Not to mention, of course the Sega version is the best. You think Sega wants the best version of their pack-in game on a different console? Huhdrhrhrhrhr.
Also, comparing the sound chips is stupid. Everyone's got preferences. A lot of people think FM sounds like shit.
Also look at RELEASE DATES. You know developers don't start out as experts on the system, right? EWJ was way after Altered Beast.
Altered Beast is a giant pile of shit compared to anything that came out just a few years later on the Genesis.
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Direct comparisons are hard to make but try to keep the games within the same years. Sonic 2 Vs. Bonk; really? Mascot crazes was all there was back then, Mario, Sonic, Bonk. They went toe to toe back then but the level of game play, depth of game play, and just the quality Bonk took a back seat.
the Bonk series is an entirely different type of platformer. If Sonic didn't have you moving at ADHD rates through most of the game, there's hardly shit to do in that game. Most of it's just watching loop-de-loops and cool twirly shit. The platforming itself takes a backseat.
Bonk presents itself in a highly cartoon fashion. I thought that was obvious.
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Music? Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD. The animation? Maybe but with so many dynamic tiles to pick up the slack you’ll hit a limit faster. Colors? Duh.
What? Please stop. The Genesis FM chip is not that glorious. It's scratchy AND tinny. I made a PC Engine version of Doom's level 1 music. It sounds less shit than the Sega 32X version. Also, go listen to shadow of the beast on Genesis, and then: http://aetherbyte.com/downloadables/sotb.mp3 Check that out. Draw your own conclusions.
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Ranger X is standard indeed except when you rule out the fluidity, that much crap going on is not going to handle well on the PCE; sorry. Did you ever play that game? The controls alone are amazing. Back in the day when reading game mags I always thought the SNES was superior (sales wise it was ;) ) when looking at screen shots. What I failed to do is play the game. Writhe with slowdown and poor controls. Great still sprites. Flash back to Ranger X. The speed the game runs at, the depth of color (For the MD) is amazing and shade and highlight tricks bring it up to acceptable standards but obviously not PCE standards.
I've determined that you have ADD and think that more distractions from simplicity = better. Winds of Thunder is equally impressive compared to Ranger X. Explain why the Sega CD one isn't as good as PCE CD?
You really should not comment on whats possible/not possible with CD vs. No CD. Because alot of what you say kind of makes no sense.
Go look at Coryoon. It's a card game. Highly detailed/colorful/fast/full of things going on. Its on a card.
You're too fanboyish about the Genesis. It's a good system, but it's by no means vastly superior to PCE
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Necromancer on May 30, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
Here we go, we all forget to list the MAIN ingredient. FUN. Which was a better system, the NES or the Atari Jaguar? You can argue Bits and bloops till teh cows came home but the NES rules.
We all forget the fun factor some times. Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner. I've played the games, they are fun, stop it. You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit. Nobody seems to get their head around that.
This thread is clearly about TECHNICAL MERITS, you useless cunt.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 09:36:21 AM
This argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
Says the man who's lacks any real understanding or even experience coding for these systems. I *know* that you are here just to troll. Go back to Sega16, please.
The PCE hucard setup lacks system ram. 8k is enough to handle all variables, but it's no where near enough to decompress and keep graphics in a buffer for fast access (like the Genesis and SNES). Thus piss poor compression schemes used and minimal animation. I've seen quite a few hucards store graphics in 8 color tile format (sprites and bg tiles) to save on space. The PCE was originally setup for 32k (you can see the evidence as the first 8k bank is mirror on the next three banks. The supergrafx actually fills those slots), and it that would have helped tremendously in using schemes like LZ compression BITD (like Genesis and SNES did).
The PCE doesn't lack speed (game logic speed is faster than the snes and about even with the Genesis). The PCE doesn't lack vram bandwidth; it can write to vram during all of active display (if vblank isn't enough). It does have block transfer instructions which are essentially dma 'instructions' (while not as fast the snes DMA or Genesis DMA, it's a hell of a lot faster than any manual copy method and the previous 8bit game platforms lacked this). The PCE doesn't lack VRAM; it has the same as the Genesis and SNES. Matter of fact, the PCE vram layout is like the Genesis in that it's pretty flexible as where to put stuff (tiles/sprites/SAT); unlike the snes that's more rigid in it's layout. The PCE's sprite scanline limit is also inline with the other two systems. The sprites can be any of the different sizes on screen like the Genenis and unlike the snes that's limited to only 2 sprite sizes per screen.
The PCE being the first system out, of the next generation, does lack a few things compared to system that came out *afterwards*. And the second BG layer is pretty much the only thing to stand out. If you want to criticize the PCE, do it for that. Not all this other bullshit.
Anyway, I thought this was supposed to be processor vs processor, and not game console vs game console. Let's get back on track.
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Not quite extreme. The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out. Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.
So it really just depends what kind of game you're making. What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference. Smile
Even if you gave the 68k the full benefit of doubt and said all 16bit operations are faster, how many 16bit operations do you have to execute per 1/60 frame in relation to everything else? I would think an RPG would be the lowest; it'd not like you're going to be hitting those on 1/60th frame basis (at least not for turn base RPGs).
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Some other exemples, are super aleste, ans rendering ranger R2
The '816, even with its hindering 8bit data bus, would smoke both the 6280 and the 68k at the same clock speed. Even with the 8bit data bus, the '816 is faster at both 16bit and 32bit math cycle wise. But if the '816 had a model with a full 16bit data bus, it would just be stupidly crazy fast.
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Yes i think so, this is the strong department of this machine, colors and sprites moving, but his sprites limit is very low for a certain kind of games, like beats them all.
I understand the 16 wide sprite cell setup on the pce, but it wouldn't have been that hard for have a 'half flag' in the SAT that would treat all sprites as 16x8 instead of 16x16. That goes a long way IMO. But that said, MD has a much better sprite size setup (smaller is better in this case) for beatem ups. But if you designed a beatem up from the ground up, you can get something better than Crest of the Wolf/Riot Zone. Check this out: (http://www.pcedev.net/pics/SOR_exm_1.png) All the sprites have been resized to 32 width segments (the top half are offset from the legs). Right there, that's seven 32 wide sprites per scanline. It's not busting the scanline limit. Of course, you wouldn't be fighting all 7 at once; take a note from the SOR2 and SOR3 games - move sprites to the top and bottom and have them wait (sometimes the game even moves them off screen). Also have them fall back really far (almost all the way off screen), etc. SOR2 and more so with SOR3, plays really dirty with the AI to keep the sprite scanline limit down.
FIRST OF ALL!!!! Thank you for calling me a man. Second of all, the thread is titled Md 68k and hu6280 comparison So we are just comparing single chip sets here, not the whole multichip architecture. Toe to toe between these two the MD68K is more powerful and can handle more operations so end of thread right? Well wrong of course that would be silly, almost as silly as what you wrote above so allow me to retort. I’ve played these systems to death. Who knows more about what an Indy car or a NASCAR can do, the engineer or the driver? Just because I didn’t sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn’t mean I don’t know what these systems can do. I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one. I have all the games now as well and years of experience. One thing that is not acceptable is theoretical stuffs that haven’t been done. Technically the new Dodge Viper is geared to 300 MPH in top gear, so it’s the fastest car in the world right?
About even with the Genesis in game logic, that’s an interesting way to put it, some folks would call it SLOWER. The SNES is a pile of shit in processing power but we all know it is designed with multi chip architecture to pull it’s weight, just like the PCE. Obviously if it was only the HU6280 we’d be calling it the NES 2. It’s not just the 2nd back ground layer. The sound took a huge hit. The CD add-on covered this beautify because no one can argue with CD quality sound but the actual sound FX are quite stratchy. Now I didn’t say they were not appealing, but man the sound is iffy at times.
Lets look at Bonks Revenge and Sonic 2, both came out around the same time, both were major mascots. I think the MD could handle that game so long as the developer did something with the colors. You mean to tell me you can get Sonic 2 on the PCE? Seriously? This is my point, hell even the NES had a decent port of Bonk with it’s 24 colors or so. My point is missed every time with the fanboi rose colored glasses however. We all love the PCE, hell I have three versions of the systems and basically all the games. It get’s hours of my attention. But in comparison of the hardware, specifically the specific chipsets in this particular thread, we all know which system is more powerful.
That’s all my fingers hurt.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 09:40:15 AM
Stef explanation was to use all registers to make bloc transfers .. but you have a 80 cycles init before (if i'am right),and you can transfer 50/70 bytes at once .
Stef told me ,he had made a fast clear routine with 2.2 cycles/byte,and for logical copy at 4.3/4.4 for his dev kit . i quote the translated message :
If you want you can have fun counting the cycles but basically with this routine I clear a buffer of 256x160 pixels (4bpp) is 20480 bytes in about 44,000 cycles.
Or 2.2 cycles / byte ... (thus a clear flow of 3.58 MB / s) And the copy is logically happens about twice or 4.3-4.4 cycles / byte. And then your 6280 is dropped, already in the copy, but the clear one is more related x3 ...
Link is for loading his routine source code .
@EvilEvoIX: for sound capabilities, the PCE chip is more flexible, you can make several kinds of sound than FM chip only in MD .. And cherry on the pudding, you don't need a 68000+Z80+ all MIT employees for doing a single correct sample .
For SF2 i'am a big fanboy of snes version, and when i have played with the PCE version, nothing slow, i was surprised on how playing sensations are the same than snes .. You can only blame the lack of second layer,nothing more .. SF2 on PCE is a f*cking good conversion, we can not say the same of the MD version, no slowdown, but large dithered graphics, and uggly sounds ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 09:52:44 AM
Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no f*cking way. Way too much going on.
There's not that much going on in Sonic 2. Outside of the fancy bonus levels, double layers, and the fast speed. You can do the fast speed stuff on the NES, for shits sake, dude.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness. What excuse is there? Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD? Look how choppy and darty the animation is? The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card. And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbtBjYPsOgk
Apples To Apples? Well then how about you compare the card version of Altered Beast, instead of the CD one. That seems like a solid idea. Not to mention, of course the Sega version is the best. You think Sega wants the best version of their pack-in game on a different console? Huhdrhrhrhrhr.
Also, comparing the sound chips is stupid. Everyone's got preferences. A lot of people think FM sounds like shit.
Also look at RELEASE DATES. You know developers don't start out as experts on the system, right? EWJ was way after Altered Beast.
Altered Beast is a giant pile of shit compared to anything that came out just a few years later on the Genesis.
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Direct comparisons are hard to make but try to keep the games within the same years. Sonic 2 Vs. Bonk; really? Mascot crazes was all there was back then, Mario, Sonic, Bonk. They went toe to toe back then but the level of game play, depth of game play, and just the quality Bonk took a back seat.
the Bonk series is an entirely different type of platformer. If Sonic didn't have you moving at ADHD rates through most of the game, there's hardly shit to do in that game. Most of it's just watching loop-de-loops and cool twirly shit. The platforming itself takes a backseat.
Bonk presents itself in a highly cartoon fashion. I thought that was obvious.
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Music? Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD. The animation? Maybe but with so many dynamic tiles to pick up the slack you’ll hit a limit faster. Colors? Duh.
What? Please stop. The Genesis FM chip is not that glorious. It's scratchy AND tinny. I made a PC Engine version of Doom's level 1 music. It sounds less shit than the Sega 32X version. Also, go listen to shadow of the beast on Genesis, and then: http://aetherbyte.com/downloadables/sotb.mp3 Check that out. Draw your own conclusions.
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Ranger X is standard indeed except when you rule out the fluidity, that much crap going on is not going to handle well on the PCE; sorry. Did you ever play that game? The controls alone are amazing. Back in the day when reading game mags I always thought the SNES was superior (sales wise it was ;) ) when looking at screen shots. What I failed to do is play the game. Writhe with slowdown and poor controls. Great still sprites. Flash back to Ranger X. The speed the game runs at, the depth of color (For the MD) is amazing and shade and highlight tricks bring it up to acceptable standards but obviously not PCE standards.
I've determined that you have ADD and think that more distractions from simplicity = better. Winds of Thunder is equally impressive compared to Ranger X. Explain why the Sega CD one isn't as good as PCE CD?
You really should not comment on whats possible/not possible with CD vs. No CD. Because alot of what you say kind of makes no sense.
Go look at Coryoon. It's a card game. Highly detailed/colorful/fast/full of things going on. Its on a card.
You're too fanboyish about the Genesis. It's a good system, but it's by no means vastly superior to PCE
Right, Sonic 2 on the NES, and I’m the idiot. Would it look like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyqmm3ecxUs
Yup just like the Genesis ;) What the f*ck was I thinking?
Now I have to compare cards to Carts vs CD’s? Why do the rules keep changing? I thought the CD didn’t count as an add on as it didn’t add any horse power? Preferences on sound chips? Hey listen that is a 100% valid argument but comparing the sound quality from say a VHS Vs a Blue Ray you MAY prefer the VHS but one is technically better. Now the MD and the PCE are not that far apart as the previous example but one is clearly better, certainly clearer.
Bonk is obviously a great game, I have all three on Chip, but when I sit down to play these things and the game is beat my first time through on all of them, there is something amiss. Grafx wise just a bunch of still sprites with almost zero animation. The fire in game is just rapid color changes. Now in terms of Art Design it is indeed a work of art but serious lacks anything other than color to make it part of the next generation of console gaming. There is nothing amazing going on in that game except for the style.
The genesis FM is indeed glorious. What it lacked was competent hands. Listen to Dynamite Headdy, listen to Earthworm Jim, Listen to Streets of Rage. This is just not an argument. You made sound using tech and know how from the 2000’s, how about we keep this argument in the late 80’s early 90’s OK? BTW you should see what is being done with the MD sound chip these days, but that’s not fair right? And I hope that sound clip you left me was a Joke because it sure sounded like it. Not doing this, sorry.
You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Stef explanation was to use all registers to make bloc transfers .. but you have a 80 cycles init before (if i'am right),and you can transfer 50/70 bytes at once .
Stef told me ,he had made a fast clear routine with 2.2 cycles/byte,and for logical copy at 4.3/4.4 for his dev kit . i quote the translated message :
If you want you can have fun counting the cycles but basically with this routine I clear a buffer of 256x160 pixels (4bpp) is 20480 bytes in about 44,000 cycles.
Or 2.2 cycles / byte ... (thus a clear flow of 3.58 MB / s) And the copy is logically happens about twice or 4.3-4.4 cycles / byte. And then your 6280 is dropped, already in the copy, but the clear one is more related x3 ...
Link is for loading his routine source code .
@EvilEvoIX: for sound capabilities, the PCE chip is more flexible, you can make several kinds of sound than FM chip only in MD .. And cherry on the pudding, you don't need a 68000+Z80+ all MIT employees for doing a single correct sample .
I looked over the code; there's no memory copy at ~4.3cycles that I saw in there. First routine is just a clear buffer (writes zero's to the buffer). Yeah, 2.160 cycles per byte (doesn't include the overhead of setting up, so 2.2 sounds about right). But there is no mem copy code in there. There's just line drawing code; not memory->memory copy code. Look at the fill code list, it's just the same value written over and over (single register, multiple addresses). Btw, I always disliked GNU's assembler syntax for 68k.
So he's talking about fills. I thought you meant memory copy (memory->memory or memory->port). But yeah, it's got the 6280 beat on fills. Even if I did a super code list like his (even larger), the fastest to fill would be 5 cycles per byte (excluding setup overhead).
EvilEvoIX: Make a new thread somewhere else. Say, PCE/SGX subforum or TG16 area. Or hell, even in this subforum (although since you have nothing technical to bring to the table, I don't think it the appropriate subforum for it). But for f*ck sake, take it somewhere else.
Edit: oh and:
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Who knows more about what an Indy car or a NASCAR can do, the engineer or the driver?
Really? That's a piss poor analogy, annnddd self defeating. Wtf makes you think I haven't played all these games into the ground? I was gamer long before I was a coder. Secondly, I owned all three system back in the day and would import games even before they came out (I played Ex-ranza way before it came out in NA as Ranger-X). On top of that, that analogy makes no sense. You played the games, you didn't develop the games. There's gamers, then there's developers, and there's what the system can actually do. You're just a gamer; your analogy is invalid.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 30, 2013, 10:19:53 AM
This is an argument I've been rehashing for months. Look at the roms I have and ignore what the system is capable of. MD games are impossible for me to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really cute and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but I can be fooled by simple tricks. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses which I cherry pick to acknowledge. In my experience, I have only seen the PCE do shooters. The md certainly hand-draws cartoons better, and the snes has more RPGs in english. It was an amazing time that I missed out on, or so I am told, as all systems were said to be so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between NES and SMS. When push comes to shove you could see Sapphire on the MD or Lords of Thunder, without any noticeable sacrifices.
Man I had all three systems in the day. Idk why my opinion is being dismissed. Arguing the specific chipset we all know the M6800 is a more powerful processor. The MD was given a lot more tools to work with. It lacks color.
Only the parts of your opinions which dismiss and ignore all presented facts. See this latest comment for example. Did you even read any of the tech talk before ignoring it and just re-posting the same stuff again?
Butt-hurt? Sorry you feel that way :/
I have the express, the tg16 and now the duo r. I forgot how much Bloody Wolf looks like Gunstar;). The 6800 is more powerful SND can do more. As stated in previous threads the PCE can run 8bit data really well but in comparison to the md with 16/32bit stuff it falls behind. You are not gona run Resq on the PCE. Keep ignoring those facts?
You even have programmers here even telling you otherwise, and a quite massive library of games to import and play on PCE before you make such uneducated statements. I'm sorry, but you are just not correct, and you honestly don't have enough experience with the PCE library, both hucard and cd wise to make these kind of baseless statements. It's not even like you have had the Duo-R forever, you just bout it off me a short while ago. I seriously doubt within that time you have amassed 300+ of the best titles for the system.
The video processor in the Genesis was not that great and took some real talent to make some great looking titles on the system, and the 68000 used in the Genesis was hampered by a low clock rate too. You shouldn't class the one used in the Genesis with everything else out there using a 68000. There was multiple versions of the cpu used using multiple clock rates and the one used for the Genesis was not one of the best, it was one of the worst versions.
I get it, your a die hard Genesis fan, and there is no shame in that. Everyone has their own preferences, but your opinion isn't fact, and your argument you keep presenting are just not put together well and the examples you bring to the table as proof are rather terrible examples of what the Genesis really could do well. I suggest picking up 200-250 of the best titles PCE has to offer. And no I don't mean playing some roms. I mean sitting down and playing real copies of titles on both CD and hucard. When you do this YOU WILL start to notice that most every game you buy that also has a Genesis version, the PCE version is going to look, play, and probably even sound better.
Before you start touting here in the tech section the power of the Genesis compared to the power of the PCE, you need to either have extensive experience with the large library of BOTH and come back with real side by side examples video or pic wise, and preferably some background experience in programming for both if you want to get into the nitty gritty. There are a few people here doing active programing that you are arguing with and its making you look like a idiot.
Concerning ResQ, yeah coulda been done easily. Nothing against Jason Backhouse, but again this is another shining example of the Genesis doing a nice background scroll and adding it to an otherwise mundane/average looking game (I will pretend I didn't ever see the terrible 3D bonus stages that have really bad 3D polygon graphics running in very low fps that drag the game down further). Tiny sprites, not much use of color going on, and a average soundtrack. Just on visuals alone pitting that one against other Psygnosis titles, Shadow of the Beast is visually more impressive then that game. Hell even Kim Power on PCE looks better and I f*cking hate Jim Power.
Like I said also, you are picking some really terrible examples title wise when trying to brag about what the Genesis could do. Due to the way the Genesis did handle visuals when maxed out, there are actually a few really high quality titles done on the machine that wouldn't carry over as well to PCE at all due to the background scrolling being integral to the over all look (ie Shinobi 3), but Earthworm Jim and ResQ are def not one of them. It sounds like you are being impressed by the Genesis for all the wrong reasons.
Even stuff like Alien Soldier, it does have some pretty large sprites and some impressive things do go on, but over all its a very noisy game and visually is not pretty. Its one of those that just pushed a lot of large objects with ok to subpar colors around really fast. I had Ranger X, and I have Hercs copy sitting here right now. I have played through it before. I don't care for the game. Its not as action packed as you make it out to be, and the stage you reference is not as impressive as the stage trickery done later in the game on Metamor Jupiter on PCE.
And thats not to say something like Shinobi 3 couldn't be done, but again, due to the way the backgrounds moved and looked, sacrifices would have to be made, and some trickery done, otherwise you'd end up with a more plain looking background. The trade off would obviously be better looking sprites and colors though in spots. The core of the game could easily be retained.
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I have Street Fighter for all systems (16-bit) The PCE is VERY slow in running the game in comparison to the MD. Prolly has something to do with the fact that the MD can handle more sprites and animation on screen than the PCE. Just keep ignoring that. Of course the MD could handle the ports with a CD add-on but it’s unfair since the Sega CD is so much more powerful so again I point to Dynamite Headdy and Earthworm Jim.
Street Fighter II slow? Really, you kidding me? It plays just as fast as its supposed to be, Its Champion Edition, not Turbo. It sounds better on PCE to boot. The Genesis port sounds terrible and some details on the Genesis port look meh. This is moot anyway. Again, the Genesis couldn't do a good port of Fatal Fury 2, Fatal Fury Special, World Heroes 2, or Art of Fighting to save its life. And don't forget, it damn well tried, via efforts from both Takara and Sega that ended up being fail, just like most every other arcade port that was on both systems. The PCE version of those games are awesome. Those titles are also visually quite a bit more impressive the the PCE, Snes, and Genesis SF2 ports, easily.
Sega CD you say? Well, they had Lords of Thunder, and it wasn't as good on Sega CD. Snatcher you say? Looks better on PCE (Dead in the Brain on PCE also looks better then Snatcher Sega CD). Fatal Fury Special on Sega CD? Yeah, it was crap, and the PCE curb stomps it. Any of the RPG titles on Sega CD, well, they are good to great sure, but there are better ones done on PCE by far. The Sega CD did one thing really well, and that was hardware scaling. For such a bigger hardware upgrade with a cd drive and all, I would have expected better games in general, but they were just not there. THAT IS A FACT. You bought a really expensive piece of crap that made a couple of impressive Batman simulators and SoulStar. Most everything else that was on it could have been done on Genesis minus the cd audio and crap FMV. Enjoy.
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Direct comparisons are hard to make but try to keep the games within the same years. Sonic 2 Vs. Bonk; really? Mascot crazes was all there was back then, Mario, Sonic, Bonk. They went toe to toe back then but the level of game play, depth of game play, and just the quality Bonk took a back seat.
Sonic 2? I like Sonic 2 to an extent and all, but come on, Sonic does what? Runs, Thats mainly all the f*ck he does. The game was built around that. The actual gameplay is not impressive and not as fun as Bonks Revenge, let alone Super Mario World. Visually I agree its a great looking game in motion and there is little like it outside of maybe Bubsy. Its another one of the few examples of the Genesis moving the background graphics around rather well and actually maintaining a good look to it. Its not even a fair comparison because the games are not even remotely similar in visuals or anything. I mean seriously though, it wouldn't even be fair to compare the Bonks on Snes to Sonic 2 due to the totally different approach Sonic games take. I'd rather not compare Sonic 1-3 to anything other then other Sonic titles, or Bubsy.
The visuals are made around the way the game was designed to play. You hardly have to fight or kill any enemies in Sonic 2. What enemies are there are usually tiny and not all that great visually. Most of the visual efforts were put into the stage graphics and the stages were designed to be giant pretty video game versions of Hot Wheels stunt tracks. All you have to do is be good at timing your jumps while you speed through the stages. If your idea of fun is just blasting through a few sets of nice visuals then cool, but I'd rather get more interaction out of my games, and Sonic 2 can be one of those rather un-engaging games at times where you just wonder when the cpu is finally going to try to stop you outside of a boss battle or the air plane stage. Its almost sounds as if in some ways you are willing to choose a few pretty visuals over actual gameplay, and that's a terrible compromise. Sonic is one of those game series that I was rather glad was left to the Genesis due to its lack of substance.
This is one of those times where I'd have to say the typical Japanese gamer had better taste in games then typical gamers in North America did at times. The arguments you are making are basically the same kind 12 year olds made against the Snes during its battle with the Genesis, and there is no damn way I'd choose Sonic 2 over Super Mario World. I dont care how f*cking fast Sonic can run. You are too easily razzle dazzled.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 30, 2013, 10:23:39 AM
Right, Sonic 2 on the NES, and I’m the idiot. Would it look like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyqmm3ecxUs
Yup just like the Genesis ;) What the f*ck was I thinking?
Uh, rather than compare it to some goony hack video, try using your head instead.
Or how about Sonic 2 for game gear. That uses a z80. It's 8-bit, and done properly because professionals did it, instead of some hackjobs. What now?
NES is capable of doing games that move as fast as Sonic. It's not really much of anything to scroll around fast.
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Now I have to compare cards to Carts vs CD’s? Why do the rules keep changing? I thought the CD didn’t count as an add on as it didn’t add any horse power? Preferences on sound chips? Hey listen that is a 100% valid argument but comparing the sound quality from say a VHS Vs a Blue Ray you MAY prefer the VHS but one is technically better. Now the MD and the PCE are not that far apart as the previous example but one is clearly better, certainly clearer.
Yes, you said apples to apples. If Altered Beast was a Mega CD game, you can bet it might have some of the same goofy animation. It's fair to do cart vs. cart. You just want to have it your way because otherwise your argument is less useful.
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Bonk is obviously a great game, I have all three on Chip, but when I sit down to play these things and the game is beat my first time through on all of them, there is something amiss. Grafx wise just a bunch of still sprites with almost zero animation. The fire in game is just rapid color changes. Now in terms of Art Design it is indeed a work of art but serious lacks anything other than color to make it part of the next generation of console gaming. There is nothing amazing going on in that game except for the style.
There's nothing amazing going on in Sonic aside from the ADD loop de loops and hot wheels race tracks. What about Super Mario World? It's slow paced, and mostly just has sprawling levels to go through.
Sonic is full of simple shading and gradients, too. What's your point?
Bonk is a cartoony platformer, and it does it perfectly. The game play is more than solid, and the gameplay is also more interesting than Sonic. I like Sonic alot, but I prefer Bonk.
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The genesis FM is indeed glorious. What it lacked was competent hands. Listen to Dynamite Headdy, listen to Earthworm Jim, Listen to Streets of Rage. This is just not an argument. You made sound using tech and know how from the 2000’s,
I made sound using the same tech and know how that would have been used in 1987 on the PC Engine. It's called MML and it has existed since the 80s. It's the exact same way music was made professionally back then for various platforms.
I made it using notepad. That's a text editor. They had those in the 80s.
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how about we keep this argument in the late 80’s early 90’s OK?
Mind explaining why you used a ROM hack as your point of argument above, then? That was made with modern know how/tech.
Or, was that OK to do since it keeps your argument from falling on it's face.
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BTW you should see what is being done with the MD sound chip these days, but that’s not fair right? And I hope that sound clip you left me was a Joke because it sure sounded like it.
It wasn't a joke. It was a demonstration of Shadow of the Beast's song, done on the PC Engine. It doesn't sound out of line with what you might have heard on the MD version, had that song actually appeared in the game. It didn't though.
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You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
Then, how come Winds of Thunder isn't as good on the Mega CD?
Why is Snatcher better looking on PCE CD?
Why does Ecco the Dolphin look basically the same between versions?
How come PCE CD RPGs look just as good, if not better, than stuff like Lunar 2?
I really think you need to drop the Sega fanboyism, and go pound sand somewhere instead of pissing all over a thread with your ignorant jive.
EDIT: I just caught ProfProf's post after posting mine, and Loled because I basically echoed him.
HOTWHEELS SONIC EDITION. NOW WITH SPINDASH LOOP DE LOOP POWERRRRRRRRRRRR
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 10:50:58 AM
I looked over the code; there's no memory copy at ~4.3cycles that I saw in there. First routine is just a clear buffer (writes zero's to the buffer). Yeah, 2.160 cycles per byte (doesn't include the overhead of setting up, so 2.2 sounds about right). But there is no mem copy code in there. There's just line drawing code; not memory->memory copy code. Look at the fill code list, it's just the same value written over and over (single register, multiple addresses). Btw, I always disliked GNU's assembler syntax for 68k.
So he's talking about fills. I thought you meant memory copy (memory->memory or memory->port). But yeah, it's got the 6280 beat on fills. Even if I did a super code list like his (even larger), the fastest to fill would be 5 cycles per byte (excluding setup overhead).
Thank you for looking at the code . The 4.4 cycles is for mem to mem copy, he's unroll all movem copy, but for each he use all available registers .
if I find the code, i'll show you tom .
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 30, 2013, 11:55:22 AM
I forgot about this remark:
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Now I have to compare cards to Carts vs CD’s? Why do the rules keep changing?
Actually they never did change. The Pc-Engine platform evolved from a Hu-card format into a compact disc one. Its not like the Genesis where development mainly continued to focus on the cart format and the Sega and Mega Cd were playing 2nd fiddle after they were added years later. Development for the Pc-Engine slowly switched gears from mostly hucard to mostly the cd format after Super Cd-Rom was made available. The cd-rom drive was available to the PCE less then a year after it's initial release. Its something they were slowly building up to with each system card release and system revision. This is simply how it is, and you may feel that's unfair, but who cares, that's life. Game systems will never be even remotely apples to apples when it concerns anything prior to 2005. You wouldn't have a problem comparing the PS1 and Saturn to the Nintendo 64, and yet the first two use cd formats, so why does it matter to you that the PCE did also? Cd wasn't treated as a simple add on in regards to the PCE/TG16, and it didn't take a back seat to the hu-card side of things in Japan.
And personally, I don't care if you want to include the Sega CD into the equation, because outside of a few shining examples of games with solid scaling, all it does is bring a bunch titles that could have been done on Genesis, and bring a ton of fail to the table. The best RPGS the Sega Cd has to offer cant stand up next to the best ones the PCE has. You might as well forget action games. As good as The Terminator is, the Sega Cd has nothing to go toe to toe against Dracula X. Fighting games? Yeah other then the garbage SNK ports and a still half assed port of MK, all you got is Eternal Champions, and outside of the FMV, it could have been a cart game. What little it has shooter wise is topped by whats on both hu-card and cd wise on PCE. If you factor in the Sega Cd and its library, it makes the Genesis look worse rather then better.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Vecanti on May 30, 2013, 12:10:57 PM
You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
The PC Engine CD wasn't an upgrade. It was released around the same time as the system (within `5 months) it was an accessory. That was one of the disappointing things about the Sega CD I remember when it came out. It had +3 years (an eternity back then) of technological advantage to take advantage of extra CPUs more system ram and really here we are arguing if the Sega CD was really any better. Maybe it was the devs fault for making so much FMV crapware. ;) But still PC Engine CD came out in frinkin' 1988 and pretty much blows the Sega CD out of the water from a "fun" perspective and even technical perspective when you look at things like Sapphire and Neo Geo ports.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 12:38:02 PM
I looked over the code; there's no memory copy at ~4.3cycles that I saw in there. First routine is just a clear buffer (writes zero's to the buffer). Yeah, 2.160 cycles per byte (doesn't include the overhead of setting up, so 2.2 sounds about right). But there is no mem copy code in there. There's just line drawing code; not memory->memory copy code. Look at the fill code list, it's just the same value written over and over (single register, multiple addresses). Btw, I always disliked GNU's assembler syntax for 68k.
So he's talking about fills. I thought you meant memory copy (memory->memory or memory->port). But yeah, it's got the 6280 beat on fills. Even if I did a super code list like his (even larger), the fastest to fill would be 5 cycles per byte (excluding setup overhead).
Thank you for looking at the code . The 4.4 cycles is for mem to mem copy, he's unroll all movem copy, but for each he use all available registers .
if I find the code, i'll show you tom .
If you used all 16 regs (that means disabling the interrupt register so it doesn't mess with A7 stack), you get 4.5 cycles a byte.
I mean, that's being realistic; the source address is long so you can copy from anywhere in rom (the first instruction). If used ABS.w (base opcode cycle count of 16 instead of 20), that means you can only copy from the first 32k of rom (of the whole address range) or the last 32k of ram. That seems a bit limiting, but it does give you 4.4375 cycles per byte.
But... that's a one time shot. If you put it in a loop, you don't get that (at least from what I tried to do):
subq.w 1,abs.w ; 8+8=16 cycles. bvc @loop ; 10 cycles (self modifying code. I'm not sure I got the address part of the opcode offset right, but the logic is there. Also, you need to pad/offset the opcode, before the loop, so the long address of the opcode is long word aligned - else it won't work on the real system).
You'd have to unroll that 26 times in order to get rid of the decrement/loop overhead. That gives you 5 cycles per byte using all 16 regs in an unrolled loop (if I did my math right). Also requires a larger over head of presetting all those address (52 of them). On top of that, it's limited because you can only do small chunk copies at a time if you wanted linear copy style ('cause after 26 times, the addresses need to be reset), unless you totally reorganized the source data... then shit starts to get real complicated - real quick. It's very limited IMO.
I thought it was faster not to use all the regs for MOVEM:
Using 14 regs at 4.642 cycles per byte if the loop unrolled 26 times. It has little over head and is very flexible in size operand of the routine.
I'd like to see what stef came up with.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
This thread keeps going but I’ll make it simple and save the novel.
Everyone and their mother agrees the M68k ALONE is a more capable CPU than the hu6280 alone. We all know this and this is the answer to the thread. the 68K is extremely capable and can has been used in home consoles, computers, arcades, etc. It is so versatile it is still being used to this day 30 years later. Fon Boi facts aside it is a better processor. I have every game for the MD/Genesis, I have every game for the TG16/PCE. It's not hard these days.
I keep hearing arguments from programmers but not evidence. I am playing these games and have been for 20 years now. Every argument I make against the PCE there is a group of guys holding hands and making excuses for the short fall. I point out obvius deficiencies and it is deflected better than the most seasoned politician could ever hope. I shore the superiorities and some of you write it off as an easy thing for the PCE to do. The PCE can move sprites around the screen fast. It can't do true multi-scrolling backgrounds but in shooters it can still get a parallax effect with stars or tiles. Otherwise toe to toe I see a deficit. Makes perfect sense as the system was from 1987 and was between the 8-bit 16-bit leap. Hell the MD had short sightedness in that it thought 64 colors would be enough.
FYI I am more of a Neo Geo fan boi. The Genesis I like as it is dirt cheap to collect for and easy to find, you can get it everywhere.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 04:09:08 PM
You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
The PC Engine CD wasn't an upgrade. It was released around the same time as the system (within `5 months) it was an accessory. That was one of the disappointing things about the Sega CD I remember when it came out. It had +3 years (an eternity back then) of technological advantage to take advantage of extra CPUs more system ram and really here we are arguing if the Sega CD was really any better. Maybe it was the devs fault for making so much FMV crapware. ;) But still PC Engine CD came out in frinkin' 1988 and pretty much blows the Sega CD out of the water from a "fun" perspective and even technical perspective when you look at things like Sapphire and Neo Geo ports.
I feel the Turbo used it's CD technology better than the Sega CD. Mostly because of the FMV shovel ware. All I was stating is that if you are going to go through the trouble of making a CD upgrade, give it some power like the Sega CD. The Sega CD shoulda added more color and the 32X shoulda never existed.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 30, 2013, 04:35:07 PM
btw. you are repeating yourself since months, telling pure made up out of thin air crap, and what is correct is the obvious stuff every 3 year old knows by today.
WE ALL KNOW IT LACKS HARDWARE PARALLAX SCROLLING. WE ALL KNOW IT HAS BETTER COLORS THAN THE MD. WE ALL KNOW IT IT CAN MOVE SPRITES FAST AND A LOT OF 'EM. WE ALL KNOW IT IS GOOD AT SHOOTERS..
so please do not repeat that crap again and again, several times on one single page.
And as for your argument programmer vs. gamer (driver vs. mechanics), I am sure most of the peeps in here are gamers since DAY ONE as well. had all the systems back then and still up until today as well. played tousands of these games as well. so you are not the f*cking only guy on this planet who played that shit and therefore has the ulitmate license to judge on what is good and what not.
most in here even have 100x more original games than you probably ever will have. it always amuses me when some clowns come in and proudly brags about having every f*cking game for every existing system....on one single HDD.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 05:31:52 PM
btw. you are repeating yourself since months, telling pure made up out of thin air crap, and what is correct is the obvious stuff every 3 year old knows by today.
WE ALL KNOW IT LACKS HARDWARE PARALLAX SCROLLING. WE ALL KNOW IT HAS BETTER COLORS THAN THE MD. WE ALL KNOW IT IT CAN MOVE SPRITES FAST AND A LOT OF 'EM. WE ALL KNOW IT IS GOOD AT SHOOTERS..
so please do not repeat that crap again and again, several times on one single page.
And as for your argument programmer vs. gamer (driver vs. mechanics), I am sure most of the peeps in here are gamers since DAY ONE as well. had all the systems back then and still up until today as well. played tousands of these games as well. so you are not the f*cking only guy on this planet who played that shit and therefore has the ulitmate license to judge on what is good and what not.
most in here even have 100x more original games than you probably ever will have. it always amuses me when some clowns come in and proudly brags about having every f*cking game for every existing system....on one single HDD.
Funny, I was gona say that you guys repeated yourselves as well. However this is a PCE site and I will always have an up hill battle. Pure made up crap? IDK how many vids I posted in reference to limits and constraints and I believe me I don’t have a movie studio making all these propaganda vids so maybe watch them with your rose colored glasses off?
I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer. Truth be told my number one system growing up was my PC. I still had the consoles and my dad would call them shit and I was wasting my money but I enjoyed the console gaming. I spent half of my free time and would pray for rain so I wouldn’t get thrown out of my house on a sunny day. You get behind the wheel so to speak and you see what a system can do. The SNES has amazing color and a bag of tricks to do heavy lifting but slows down if you tap the A button too fast. The PCE has that eye popping color and sprite capability but not so much when pushing muti scrolling and intense animation. The MD did it all. You had to twist it’s arm to get color but approaching 200 colors with simple tricks isn’t too shabby. Seriously what can the Md 68k and hu6280 comparison give us now? We already know what these two chips are capable and we already know which one has been used millions of times more; why is there any confusion? You are mixing PASSION with REALITY.
FYO that M68K you guys like to brush over has been the choice of programmers and hardware manufacturers for over 30 years now. Nothing reveals success and usability more than a long history.
You are getting upset because some guy on the internet is giving so comparisons about the System (Team, Religion, Partition politics and insert your talking head news argument here, it's all the same thing). Trouble is everyone I know or ever knew seems to agree with me, in fact this is the only site that seems to have trouble understanding what is obvious to anyone with a pair of ears and eyes. The amount of excuses being made and the amount of facts just obliterated are beyond even what I get on www.neo-geo.com (http://www.neo-geo.com/) and that is saying something. Why can’t you understand that if something is less capable doesn’t mean it is inferior? Basically we are dealing with an interactive form of electro-art. When something doesn’t age or bend to the will of the masses it becomes a classic. The PCE is etched into gaming history and left a huge foot print, doesn’t that make you happy? We all know why the PCE used a 8-Bit processor, back in 1987 it was just more cost effective, it even added the two additional chips for more power. It was originally designed to be the Super Nintendo. Nintendo didn't like it and passed. That happened once again and we got the Playstation.
You have 100x more original games than me, where do I mail you your medal? If not I can fly to your location and personally give you a high 5. Your choice.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 05:54:39 PM
Nice quote I found on the 16 Bit Trio we all love....
Quote from: Arkhan
Speed wise?
The cut and dry here:
Genesis: This wins CPU wise. It's a great 68k CPU. The addressing modes and 16-bitness, coupled with the actual speed of the CPU make it an excellent processor. The color choices are the crippler of the genesis. The CPU itself is superb. The instruction set is cleverly designed for maximum potential. It even handles C very well. Ecco the Dolphin was done entirely in C. This sort of thing doesn't occur with a 6502. The TG-16 chokes on C. It can't process all of the overhead of C without denting performance.
Lets also not forget, it has the z80 onboard as well.
TG16: I am a TG-16 fanboy. I love this thing. I just wish it had a 16-bit CPU. The 65C02 is the fastest 8bit CPU in the 6502 family. A similar example is the Apple IIc+. Try running some of the old old Apple II games on a IIC+ without holding escape to toggle it to slow mode. Your games are unplayable. Falcons is warpspeed. You die.
It really can powerhouse through computations. However, it is still limited in it's uses because of its 8-bitness, and it's 6502 based quirks. When this thing is coerced properly, it is an excellent CPU. The new features the 65C02 adds
Plus, the TG-16's color choices didn't suck. That's why the shooters are so arcade-close, and the performance is so great. It is a great CPU all around. Definitely the nicest 6502 based CPU.
SNES: WTF is all I can say. It's a 65816. Its the successor to the 65C02, but the one in the SNES is balls-frigging-slow. Yes it gets the benefits of 16 bit operations, but its still so frikking slow that it doesn't really matter. It sort of cancels itself out by being so slow. It's like having a Ferarri that can only shift into 3rd gear.
The SuperCPU for C64, now there is an actual example of a 65816 being used right. This was a wasted opportunity for the SNES. If they'd clocked the thing higher, it would have been excellent.
Plus, it's backwards compatible with the 6502 based CPUs before it. It supports all of the things the 65C02 does!
But, if you were to run code from a TG-16 on a SNES, it'd f*ckin run slower than shit because the CPU is going to process it as it were (compatible with the 65C02), but do it like half as fast.
Totally blows.
I actually have this really cool chart in a book somewhere (I will find it!), that shows the features of the various 6502 variants in comparison to each other. It's a better example of what makes each sucessor better than the previous. I'll scan that thing and post in here. It's better than typing it all out in a text-wall.
You'll be able to see why the TG-16 was such a nice machine CPU wise, and why the SNES should have basically stomped it, but wasn't able to due to it's clock speed being so damn slow.
comparing raw CPU stuff is only half the picture here though. When you consider what else was going on, each machine has other pros/cons.
Like the color comparisons. The TG wins out on that, but loses out on background planes.
This post probably sucks. I suck at explaining technical shit.
Now I basically agree with this, am I wrong?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 30, 2013, 05:58:40 PM
I don't have a much of a dog in this fight as i clearly don't know shit about the internal workings of these cpu's. I would like to point out though, that if the original argument was "which cpu is better", then you were given an answer Evil. I believe bonknuts quite clearly provided testing information stating the technical pro's and cons of each chip. I believe based on that information, it was pointed out that these chips are fairly equal depending on how they are used. You claimed no programmer or tech gave you an answer, they clearly did. It may not have been the answer you wanted, but it was a definite answer. If your not biased then why did you disregard the answer you were given, on point to the topic no less? I really could care less who's right as the topic is a moot point. However, if your trying to take the high road and not look like a chest thumping fan boi, Then why did you not accept the answer you were given? You don't have to like it, but you don't have to lie about it either. The answer was not evening damning for your precious chip. You were told that both cpu's were basically even? Not entirely sure why that bothers you so much. Worse is, if your so upset about people being off topic, why the hell are you going on and on about what chip was used more. I use a fork more than a spoon, does not mean my fork is faster dipshit. Thats whats called going off topic.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 06:02:29 PM
I don't have a much of a dog in this fight as i clearly don't know shit about the internal workings of these cpu's. I would like to point out though, that if the original argument was "which cpu is better", then you were given an answer Evil. I believe bonknuts quite clearly provided testing information stating the technical pro's and cons of each chip. I believe based on that information, it was pointed out that these chips are fairly equal depending on how they are used. You claimed no programmer or tech gave you an answer, they clearly did. It may not have been the answer you wanted, but it was a definite answer. If your not biased then why did you disregard the answer you were given, on point to the topic no less? I really could care less who's right as the topic is a moot point. However, if your trying to take the high road and not look like a chest thumping fan boi, Then why did you not accept the answer you were given? You don't have to like it, but you don't have to lie about it either. The answer was not evening damning for your precious chip. You were told that both cpu's were basically even? Not entirely sure why that bothers you so much. Worse is, if your so upset about people being off topic, why the hell are you going on and on about what chip was used more. I use a fork more than a spoon, does not mean my fork is faster dipshit. Thats whats called going off topic.
Read my quote above, some good info in there from someone smarter then us. How are the chips even? It's better than the 65816 but head to head the 68K moves more crap faster, how is that not understood?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 30, 2013, 06:11:52 PM
Everytime you post something, we get two or three more laughters out of this topic.
Please Don't stop Posting :lol:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 06:15:14 PM
Everytime you post something, we get two or three more laughters out of this topic.
Please Don't stop Posting :lol:
Just keep telling yourself that, you may start to believe it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 30, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
Evil I can't comment on that quote, I'm not a programmer, I know nothing about it. I just have this vision of you with a ruler measuring the length of the cpu in your genny so you can prove its longer to. At the end of the day evil, a friendly debate is when people give and concede points based on factual technical merits. Your just gonna keep going no matter what. More so, quoting ones guys post does not make for a solid argument. You need to stand on your own two feet, not use someone elses. Bonknuts testing used point for point numbers demonstrating the differences between the two cpu's. You continue to ignore this fact. Hence, your just trolling and were from the beginning.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 06:36:22 PM
Evil I can't comment on that quote, I'm not a programmer, I know nothing about it. I just have this vision of you with a ruler measuring the length of the cpu in your genny so you can prove its longer to. At the end of the day evil, a friendly debate is when people give and concede points based on factual technical merits. Your just gonna keep going no matter what. More so, quoting ones guys post does not make for a solid argument. You need to stand on your own two feet, not use someone elses. Bonknuts testing used point for point numbers demonstrating the differences between the two cpu's. You continue to ignore this fact. Hence, your just trolling and were from the beginning.
We are arguing about vintage computer hardware? We aren't arguing about healthcare or the national debt here. My biggest enjoyment is that there are people out there (myself included) that still care about this utter meaningless time waster of a topic. My biggest concern is how upset people get like I bad mouthed their children.
Again, FYI, I'm a Neo Geo Fan Boi. It also has the 68K so maybe Ima 69K fan boi. I was impressed with it's versatility and longevity, you can respect that right?
Stand on my two feet, in explaining which processor is better? The Md 68k and hu6280 comparison in my own words? Lemy try again...
The 68K wins. First and foremost it's a true 16-Bit CPU. Obviously at the time bit-nes wasn't the end all be all and we already proved that the PCE CPU was in fact superior to the SNES CPU but the 68K had the speed as well. As stated before it can handle more operations than the 6502. The 6502 alone would be in trouble so it added dual 16-bit GPU. Why did it do that? Wasn't the 6502 enough? Nope it needed additional helper chips just to even compete while the MD used the 68K and the z80 for sound. They even tried again with the SGX and that failed. The CPU it self had to work harder to accomplish the same task as the 68K could.
Sega had a whole year after the release of the PCE to look at it and make something to compete with it. Obviously they were going to use something better or at least more versatile; they did both. In order for the PCE to compete with multi scrolling you had to program in Dynamic Tiles and Sprites to make a multi plane effect. That took up CPU resources as well. I could go on about ram limitations or the sound but I think we are just going after a specific 68K vs hu6280 and as I said unless you are a fan boi it is clear cut.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 30, 2013, 06:45:37 PM
yes actually i can. i'm geeky enough to respect the quirks of all the hardware out there and what makes it tick. I don't focus on just one of them though. Thats not how these conversations usually go though do they? I wish they did. The whole topic is moot as the programmers are what made the machine regardless of what hardware was in it. All the technobable amounts to squat if the programmers are not up to par. thats why cpu vs cpu is just bout as inane as it gets. it does not matter, not would it ever. If you really wanna get technical about it, Nintendo and Sega should be ashamed that the Pc-engine held its own so well despite being much older than the other two machines. This whole argument has the opposite effect on me that it does on others. It does not make me say "wow, look at how great the 68k is" it makes me say "wow, look at how great the turbo is despite a co called 8-bit cpu" After all, if the 68k is actually a 32-bit cpu, then it should be ashamed of itself in comparison. I realize thats flawed logic as i don't really know how the cpu's work, but it makes you think don't it?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
yes actually i can. i'm geeky enough to respect the quirks of all the hardware out there and what makes it tick. I don't focus on just one of them though. Thats not how these conversations usually go though do they? I wish they did. The whole topic is moot as the programmers are what made the machine regardless of what hardware was in it. All the technobable amounts to squat if the programmers are not up to par. thats why cpu vs cpu is just bout as inane as it gets. it does not matter, not would it ever. If you really wanna get technical about it, Nintendo and Sega should be ashamed that the Pc-engine held its own so well despite being much older than the other two machines. This whole argument has the opposite effect on me that it does on others. It does not make me say "wow, look at how great the 68k is" it makes me say "wow, look at how great the turbo is despite a co called 8-bit cpu" After all, if the 68k is actually a 32-bit cpu, then it should be ashamed of itself in comparison. I realize thats flawed logic as i don't really know how the cpu's work, but it makes you think don't it?
Very clever programing and eye popping color were the Turbo's strong suit. Shooters themselves had a lot of sprites bit the sprites themselves didn't animate much so you can have a very detailed and relatively large sprite of your ship and all the other ships and bosses. Even the bad shooters I liked as the system just draws you to them.
I will still stand by my statement on the PCE and SFII, I don't get the hype. I have the game I play it, I prefer the other two to this one. I think the floor scrolls nicely however and obviously the color.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on May 30, 2013, 07:02:38 PM
I"m not a fighting game fan so it really does not matter to me. I would imagine though that anyone that owned a turbo and not the other systems would have been tickled to get sf2 at all. As for the shooters, i can't agree on the animation thing. Sapphire has so much animation and stuff going on it reminds me of pulstar and blazing star on the neo. Past that, again, i don't care. I would love to know all the technical aspects about these machines and there cpu's, but not so i can argue about them. Rather, so i could understand just how some of the best games were made despite the hardware. to me thats much more fun.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 30, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
See, this is exactly your problem. You come here with the mentality to battle. And you're doing the same here about the PCE as you were doing on Sega-16. Wtf does it even matter to you, if neither of these two systems are your 'fanboi' favorite? Poke the bear and you get the claws. What else did you expect? Seriously.
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FYO that M68K you guys like to brush over has been the choice of programmers and hardware manufacturers for over 30 years now. Nothing reveals success and usability more than a long history.
FYI, the original 68k (used in the Genesis and NeoGeo) was long surpassed by better versions. A 68000 != a 68040 or 68060. They are not using the original 68k 30 years later, wtf. The HuC6280 is a custom cpu. It's not an off the shelf 8bit 65x processor. It had quite a bit of instructions and support added to it, including a 21bit address bus (2megabyte external address range). All of the original and clone 65x processors only have 64k external addressing and needed 'mappers'. Not only that, but the 65x 'core' that it's based off of - was certified to use in critical life sustaining applications (medical equipment). It was used in a number of cars all through out the 90's. It's still sold and used today (you can by the MCU of 65x and '816 on their site). But none of that is relative and your rambling is just that.
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It was originally designed to be the Super Nintendo.
Uhhh no. It was a system created to be licensed, like the MSX. Nintendo declined when offered. NEC licensed the system as did a couple of arcade developers (Bloody Wolf game being one of then).
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We all know why the PCE used a 8-Bit processor, back in 1987 it was just more cost effective, it even added the two additional chips for more power.
It didn't 'even add two additional chips'. They *are* the system chips! Without those chips, there is no video.
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We all know why the PCE used a 8-Bit processor, back in 1987 it was just more cost effective
It's a completely *new*, custom cpu (it's not just a repackaged cpu). You think that's more cost effective than using a stock 65c02??? No. Just... no. Wth?
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I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
That's great, but you're not. End of story.
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If not I can fly to your location and personally give you a high 5. Your choice.
I doubt you could afford the ticket. But I'd love to be proven wrong :D
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Shooters themselves had a lot of sprites bit the sprites themselves didn't animate much so you can have a very detailed and relatively large sprite of your ship and all the other ships and bosses.
And almost always a limitation of storage (and design choice for some CD games). Look at sapphire: it has lots of animation. From little sprites to huge bosses.
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Seriously what can the Md 68k and hu6280 comparison give us now?
A lot. A lot that you'll never understand because you're not a coder of old outdated chips. The fact that you have to ask this question, means you shouldn't even be in this thread. Plain and simple. The 68k (the original 68k) was wildy used in a lot of systems and computers. It has an overflated reputation for being the best. But it's not. It's actually relatively a slow processor (especially if you consider it a 32bit cpu) and that was changed in later models. But that's fine, because it was only the first edition. The reason why it was used in computers is because it has real support for OS related stuff. It had dynamic linked code, it had branch relative code, it had a real *useable* stack, and the flat memory model makes things soooooooo much easier than bank switching. It was a real next gen computer CPU. A new 'clean' design and a forward thinking design as well (it was designed in that the cycle times would come down and the alu would be upgraded to a real 32bit alu). That's why it was so popular. And the fact that it had higher clock speeds than ANY 8bit cpu at the time, really makes it a perfect design choice (1981 had a 16mhz model released).
But consoles != computers. There is no *OS* to contend with. There is no multitasking, etc. And these consoles have a LOT of hardware assist. So much so, that the cpu is pretty much regulated to game logic. The 65x is a fast execution design; it does certain things really fast. It makes a great embedded processor (which it moved onto). It's just not a suitable cpu for computer with an OS. Though that didn't stop intel with its pathetic x86 design running DOS for years (even windows 3.x). So regardless of how 'powerful' it is (powerful does not always mean 'fast), overall it's a little overkill for a game console. The flat memory model is nice and so is the ISA, but those aren't need for a programmer that knows how to deal with bank switching and such. Even with unoptimized code, the 6280 can contend.
This discussion is about looking at the strengths and weakness of both processors relative to each other (game logic). Why? Because there's a lot of misinformation about the capability of the '8bit' 6280 and a lot of over inflated reputation of the 68k (mostly from Amiga and ST users, from what I've seen). You're not a processor geek. You wouldn't get it.
Edit: fixed my typos
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 08:48:03 PM
I"m not a fighting game fan so it really does not matter to me. I would imagine though that anyone that owned a turbo and not the other systems would have been tickled to get sf2 at all. As for the shooters, i can't agree on the animation thing. Sapphire has so much animation and stuff going on it reminds me of pulstar and blazing star on the neo. Past that, again, i don't care. I would love to know all the technical aspects about these machines and there cpu's, but not so i can argue about them. Rather, so i could understand just how some of the best games were made despite the hardware. to me thats much more fun.
Pulstar and Blazing Star are BIG shoes to fill (Inner Neo Geo fan boi emerges) so I will say they are more in line of Alpha Mission II or Last Resort. Sapphire is a great great game and I play it a lot in fact. I love the music but the shooting sound effects are a poor choice. I think it’s just another great Shooter on the PCE and it rules at that.
See, this is exactly your problem. You come here with the mentality to battle. And you're doing the same here about the PCE as you were doing on Sega-16. Wtf does it even matter to you, if neither of these two systems are your 'fanboi' favorite? Poke the bear and you get the claws. What else did you expect? Seriously.
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FYO that M68K you guys like to brush over has been the choice of programmers and hardware manufacturers for over 30 years now. Nothing reveals success and usability more than a long history.
FYI, the original 68k (used in the Genesis and NeoGeo) was long surpassed by better versions. A 68000 != a 68040 or 68080. They are not using the original 68k 30 years later, wtf. The HuC6280 is a custom cpu. It's not an off the shelf 8bit 65x processor. It had quite a bit of instructions and support added to it, including a 21bit address bus (2megabyte external address range). All of the original and clone 65x processors only have 64k external addressing and needed 'mappers'. Not only that, but the 65x 'core' that it's based off of - was certified to use in critical life sustaining applications (medical equipment). It was used in a number of cars all through out the 90's. It's still sold and used today (you can by the MCU of 65x and '816 on their site). But none of that is relative and your rambling is just that.
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It was originally designed to be the Super Nintendo.
Uhhh no. It was a system created to be licensed, like the MSX. Nintendo declined when offered. NEC licensed the system as did a couple of arcade developers (Bloody Wolf game being one of then).
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We all know why the PCE used a 8-Bit processor, back in 1987 it was just more cost effective, it even added the two additional chips for more power.
It didn't 'even add two additional chips'. They *are* the system chips! Without those chips, there is no video.
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We all know why the PCE used a 8-Bit processor, back in 1987 it was just more cost effective
It's a completely *new*, custom cpu (it's not just a repackaged cpu). You think that's more cost effective than using a stock 65c02??? No. Just... no. Wth?
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I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
That's great, but you're not. End of story.
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If not I can fly to your location and personally give you a high 5. Your choice.
I doubt you could afford the ticket. But I'd love to be proven wrong :D
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Shooters themselves had a lot of sprites bit the sprites themselves didn't animate much so you can have a very detailed and relatively large sprite of your ship and all the other ships and bosses.
And almost always a limitation of storage (and design choice for some CD games). Look at sapphire: it has lots of animation. From little sprites to huge bosses.
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Seriously what can the Md 68k and hu6280 comparison give us now?
A lot. A lot that you'll never understand because you're not a coder of old outdated chips. The fact that you have to ask this question, means you shouldn't even be in this thread. Plain and simple. The 68k (the original 58k) was wildy used in a lot of systems and computers. It has an overflated reputation for being the best. But it's not. It's actually relatively a slow processor (especially if you consider it a 32bit cpu) and that was changed in later models. But that's fine, because it was only the first edition. The reason why it was used in computers is because it has real support for OS related stuff. It had dynamic linked code, it had branch relative code, it had a real *useable* stack, and the flat memory model makes things soooooooo much easier than bank switching. It was a real next gen computer CPU. A new 'clean' design and a forward thinking design as well (it was designed in that the cycle times would come down and the alu would be upgraded to a real 32bit alu). That's why it was so popular. And the fact that it had higher clock speeds than ANY 8bit cpu at the time, really makes it a perfect design choice (1981 had a 16mhz model released).
But consoles != computers. There is no *OS* to contend with. There is no multitasking, etc. And these consoles have a LOT of hardware assist. So much so, that the cpu is pretty much regulated to game logic. The 65x is a fast execution design; it does certain things really fast. It makes a great embedded processor (which it moved onto). It's just not a suitable cpu for computer with an OS. Though that didn't stop intel with its pathetic x86 design running DOS for years (even windows 3.x). So regardless of how 'powerful' it is (powerful does not always mean 'fast), overall it's a little overkill for a game console. The flat memory model is nice and so is the ISA, but those aren't need for a programmer that knows how to deal with bank switching and such. Even with unoptimized code, the 6280 can contend.
This discussion is about looking at the strengths and weakness of both processors relative to each other (game logic). Why? Because there's a lot of misinformation about the capability of the '8bit' 6280 and a lot of over inflated reputation of the68k (mostly from Amiga and ST users, from what I've seen). You're not a processor geek. You wouldn't get it.
Mentality to battle? It’s an internet forum, it's not real life and I'm not trying to prove superiority over some other stranger who takes himself WAY too seriously. But for entertainment value I'll be more than happy to answer some of your questions. I don’t even know how to battle nor do I know the rules and I left my Magic cards at home. I said this is an up-hill battle which is a common colloquialism and isn’t meant to be taken literally. You can't "preach to the converted" (Read I am not a preacher nor do I work in a church, it's a saying) I just like to see that bias is removed and people understand that the 68K did more stuff faster. You skipped over that part in your rant but more on that later.
I understand that there are updates to the 68K, I was simply arguing the use of the series but not even that that chip was just in everything at the time. You know how many systems, computers, arcade machines; it was in everything. The same goes for the PCE chip as it had some revisions and upgrades in it's time. Very simple reason why too but I don’t wish to battle ;)
Nintendo declined the offer, meaning it was designed as a successor to the NES or at least tried to be. I must have misspoke when I called it the Super Nintendo as it wasn’t so that was certainly a mistake on my part. I just named it as such as if it were chosen as the successor it would be known as the SNES or at least a variation of that. Again, semantics. You are driving wedges where there shouldn’t be any and it’s all filler. Focus on the thread title please.
Are you telling me a 16BIT CPU would have been cheaper back in 1987, and I mean a new proper 16-BIT over the HU6280? Stop it. Hardware gets better and then cheaper with age and revisions. Everyone knows this. The PCE had *-bit machines to contend with back in 1987 so it built a killer 8-bith machine with the 16-Bit Video Color Encoder and then yes a 16 Bit Video Display Controller to get picture. Even NEC harped on the bit-ness as a matter of marketing and it back fired in the West. It was however as you stated for console gaming instead of the computer market so just game logic.
The notion that the PCE CPU was entirely new was misleading as it is a revised version of the 65SC02 which was used in many other devices and computers. It was originally designed to compete against the Z80. So basically a chip from the mid 70’s that has been tarted up to run at very fast speeds.
Doubt I can afford a ticket, what is this grade school? Seriously I am embarrassed for you. You lack tact and took things personal which shows you are missing the point, that is just silly of you to say and weakens your argument.
I also appreciate the revisionist history lesson, lots of memories in there from the eyes of a hater but the fact remains that the 68K alone is faster than your precious HuC6280. I can see it in your fan boi eyes as you so naively decided to add bias rant that the 68K was, oh what did you say?
“The 68k (the original 58k) was wildly used in a lot of systems and computers. It has an overinflated reputation for being the best.”
and lets not forget....
"a lot of over inflated reputation of the68k (mostly from Amiga and ST users, from what I've seen)"
Anger, bias, why? Why not the facts?
Not one word about clock speed and what chip does more faster. Read the title of the thread and get back to me again.
You said yourself that programmers and coders in addition to hardware MFR’s decide what is easy to use and code for and make/break systems. They want too use the real next gen hardware so why is it over inflated if it was used for so long in so many variations? Why did Arcades use it in so many variations? Highly confusing.
In short the PCE at the time (1987) only had 8-bit machines to worry about so it made a more advanced version of what was already available on the market and blew everything away. They looked back and saw a lack of colors and crippling sprite limits in existed consoles and murdered it. Sega took one look at that and reached into their arcade drawer and did something to compete with that.
So lets hear you chip-set knowledge and just tell us which chip does more things faster.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 09:16:51 PM
I mean, that's being realistic; the source address is long so you can copy from anywhere in rom (the first instruction). If used ABS.w (base opcode cycle count of 16 instead of 20), that means you can only copy from the first 32k of rom (of the whole address range) or the last 32k of ram. That seems a bit limiting, but it does give you 4.4375 cycles per byte. But... that's a one time shot. If you put it in a loop, you don't get that (at least from what I tried to do):
subq.w 1,abs.w ; 8+8=16 cycles. bvc @loop ; 10 cycles (self modifying code. I'm not sure I got the address part of the opcode offset right, but the logic is there. Also, you need to pad/offset the opcode, before the loop, so the long address of the opcode is long word aligned - else it won't work on the real system).
Yes that's what I told him, it was a result of interpolation. he took the result, and multiplied X time as needed, without counting the registers reload, end test .. he had no loop, because all was unrolled ..
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You'd have to unroll that 26 times in order to get rid of the decrement/loop overhead. That gives you 5 cycles per byte using all 16 regs in an unrolled loop (if I did my math right). Also requires a larger over head of presetting all those address (52 of them). On top of that, it's limited because you can only do small chunk copies at a time if you wanted linear copy style ('cause after 26 times, the addresses need to be reset), unless you totally reorganized the source data... then shit starts to get real complicated - real quick. It's very limited IMO.
Of course, and it's a huge ram consuming, IMO the txx instructions are really great . Stef is a great coder not doubt, but too fanboy really, you can not have a technical discussion, all is always better on MD, even sound chip ..
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I thought it was faster not to use all the regs for MOVEM:
258 cycles for 56 bytes, an average of 4.6 cycles / byte...
or
move.l (a0)+,(a1)+ / 20
you take 20 cycles for 4 bytes,an average of 5 cycles / byte, a transfer rate of 1.53 Mo/s.
It takes these values, regardless of the number to be copied, and makes a simple multiplication .
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 30, 2013, 09:34:23 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Must be one of those vile Amiga Fan Bois tarting up the 68K again....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: TheOldMan on May 30, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
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Everytime you post something, we get two or three more laughters out of this topic.
Hear, Hear!. I'm rather enjoying the laughs from his "arguements". Sloppy logic, inappropriate analogies, and constant shifts of opinion that 'prove'....absolutely nothing.
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Everyone and their mother agrees the M68k ALONE is a more capable CPU than the hu6280 alone.
First of all, consider that thought. If even one person disagrees, it is false, and thus the whole arguement collapses. Very Funny. So I asked my wife, and she said "Who cares?" Of course, he's going to say "Well not everyone", just... and try to limit it to a small group of people. However, if you limit it to the people who already agree, it becomes a circular arguement : Vocal Opinion shouted is still an opinion - not the truth. You can't convert the convinced.
And I love this one:
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I keep hearing arguments from programmers but not evidence.
Nope, no evidence here - just blindly ignore the cycles per instruction that Tom posted. Completely ignore the need to use all registers on a 6800 to do a fast copy. And ignore the fact that the ti- instructions do what are effectively memory copies at a cost of 1 cycle per byte, with a 5 cycle overhead. And are capable of doing so across an entire 64K address space. Nope, no evidence - that supports your arguement.
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I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
Ah, that explains it. He absorbed all his knowledge by being around people who knew what they were talking about :) FYI, dude: Tom and I -are- programmers and engineers. Both of us have 25+ years experience at this stuff. I doubt you have 25+ years of age. Yet, somehow. miraculously, that makes you an expert.
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Just keep telling yourself that, you may start to believe it.
And another one I find absolutely hilarious:
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FYO that M68K you guys like to brush over has been the choice of programmers and hardware manufacturers for over 30 years now. Nothing reveals success and usability more than a long history.
Think about how funny that really is. The 6502 core was around for years before the 68000. So if longevity = success..... 6502 core wins. Proving his own arguement is wrong. Gotta love that.
And this quote? Spoken like a true 20 something who listens to the companies, and never compares their lines to reality...
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Hardware gets better and then cheaper with age and revisions. Everyone knows this
Again with the "everyone"...... Tell that to the folks that lost backwards compatibilty on the ps3. Tell that to all the people who buy Macs. (My mac mini was only $500 on sale...down from $!k - because they couldn't sell them at that price.) Tell that to all the people whose phones broke after a year, and had to be replaced - with more expensive models that did tons of things that no one really wants in a phone. I bet you find a lot of people who disagree about hardware getting "better" or "cheaper".
And my favorite quote, but you have to remember this is from a guy comparing apples to oranges....
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Not one word about clock speed and what chip does more faster.
Presumably, a faster clock speed would allow the chip to do more - but that's not always true (anyone else own a 486?) Given equal clock speeds, I think the 6502 core would outperform the 68000, based on the cycle counts Tom posted. Even more radically, -ignoring the clock speed- I still believe the 6502 core could outperform a 68000 in a special purpose application - like a video game.
Of course, by his same logic, the New pentiums running at 2.4GHz are better chips than the same exact chips running at 2.0GHz. <lol> .................................................................................. Now. before you decide to rip into me (and have fun with it, I really don't care) I don't care either way. It's not the CPU or the clock speed, or even how much memory a system has. It's what the programmers do with it. After 40+ years of work, the engineers have pretty much decided the kinds of things a CPU needs to do. They all do the same things. The field is pretty level anymore. There is no "better". Just "different".
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on May 30, 2013, 09:48:01 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Must be one of those vile Amiga Fan Bois tarting up the 68K again....
what's your problem ???, the fact than a 8 bit processor, can compete with 68k ?? There is no troll on it, it's only the reality of code ..
We just took the case of game consoles, not in general use .
Look at this : http://youtu.be/2liTcrxOESA yes, this is on snes with his "crappy CPU", when this CPU is programmed by a master of 65xx, there is no slowdown, a lot of sprites on screen, lot of action, no sprites flicking .. Technicaly, this shoot is better than any Md ones . Can you imagine what he would do with a CPU clocked at 7mhz ?? You can see also his last game on C64, enforcer : Only with a 6510 @0,9 mhz, yes less THAN 1 MHZ ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 30, 2013, 10:14:54 PM
I love how SFII is constantly used as a reference by people who have a piss poor understanding of the game to compare 16-bit systems. Usually it's guys like Black Tiger sprite ripping and dick measuring every minute aspect of the game in a "frozen in amber" way that is impossible to appreciate while actually playing the thing. The reality is that the PCE ver of SFII' was a very very good port of the game, but because it wasn't Turbo, and because Turbo was released on SFC a month later for 3000 yen less, the PCE version was nearly useless to real SF maniax back in the day. This has nothing to do with the technical side of SFII' on PCE, which is excellent, it's just...the breaks.
However, this EvilEvo douche is the only guy I've ever seen who not only slams the PCE ver of SFII' but cites it specifically as evidence of the PCE's weakness. This isn't the first time he's mentioned that the game is "slow", saying this is the PCE's fault. And this isn't the first time people have told him that it's "slow" because it's SFII', not SFII' Turbo, and that it could run at any speed the programmers wanted it to run at. Seriously, compare it to the CPS version. It's just as slow. The PS version of SFII' is also slower than the SFC/MD version of Turbo. Does this mean the SFC and MD are more powerful than the PS?
What a dipshit.
Anyway, as for the original topic, I have nothing to contribute other than to say that I'm a huge fan of the 68k, if its actually possible to be fan-ish about a CPU. While the Genesis isn't that great, IMHO, I love the old Macs, Amigas, and arcade boards (CPS, MVS, Taito, Cave, etc) that used this chip for so many years. The original designers probably never thought that something like Marvel Super Heroes versus Street Fighter would ever be possible with their chip back when they first developed it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 31, 2013, 01:17:42 AM
You know, I used to have a link to this but lost it. Anyone have a link to this one page that showed what all arcade titles used the Hu6280 either as a main cpu or for co-processing? I know there was quite a few that used it (Capt America, Bloody Wolf etc).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on May 31, 2013, 01:50:42 AM
I love how SFII is constantly used as a reference by people who have a piss poor understanding of the game to compare 16-bit systems. Usually it's guys like Black Tiger sprite ripping and dick measuring every minute aspect of the game in a "frozen in amber" way that is impossible to appreciate while actually playing the thing. The reality is that the PCE ver of SFII' was a very very good port of the game, but because it wasn't Turbo, and because Turbo was released on SFC a month later for 3000 yen less, the PCE version was nearly useless to real SF maniax back in the day. This has nothing to do with the technical side of SFII' on PCE, which is excellent, it's just...the breaks.
However, this EvilEvo douche is the only guy I've ever seen who not only slams the PCE ver of SFII' but cites it specifically as evidence of the PCE's weakness. This isn't the first time he's mentioned that the game is "slow", saying this is the PCE's fault. And this isn't the first time people have told him that it's "slow" because it's SFII', not SFII' Turbo, and that it could run at any speed the programmers wanted it to run at. Seriously, compare it to the CPS version. It's just as slow. The PS version of SFII' is also slower than the SFC/MD version of Turbo. Does this mean the SFC and MD are more powerful than the PS?
What a dipshit.
Anyway, as for the original topic, I have nothing to contribute other than to say that I'm a huge fan of the 68k, if its actually possible to be fan-ish about a CPU. While the Genesis isn't that great, IMHO, I love the old Macs, Amigas, and arcade boards (CPS, MVS, Taito, Cave, etc) that used this chip for so many years. The original designers probably never thought that something like Marvel Super Heroes versus Street Fighter would ever be possible with their chip back when they first developed it.
That's not what those kinds of comparisons are about, but since you love joining in them so much, I guess you're only confirming your motivation. But the speed at which you resort to screaming and swearing every time you feel that the SNES's superiority is being questioned already made that clear for everyone. The only difference between you and EvilEvoX in discussions like this, is he championing the MD instead of SNES and is much more polite. You also ignore real game examples ("ALL PCE TRANSPARENCIES ARE FLICKER EFFECTS!"), explanations from programmers, and love to throw out names of games that you just can't see being done at all on PCE. No matter how simple and straightforward too many of those games are or how something similar was already done better on PCE.
Other crazed Nintendo fans also blindly use the SFII as evidence of SNES superiority in ways that defy logic. No matter how frequently they actually play the thing on consoles, they'll still tell you that the voice and sound effects are identical in each version, except that SNES is the clearest and Genesis is the poorest quality. In reality, the SNES sounds are sped up, shopped up, echoed, muffled and reverbed and don't sound like the arcade at all anymore. You can tell them that, but even if they swear that they've actually played them, they will just stick to your kind of "I can't hear you!" argument.
Because it's not about dick measuring for me, that's why my SFII' comparison is unbiased and just lists pros and cons about the various aspects, presents them as-is and in the overall summary is harsh against the PCE version and more or less calls the SNES the best overall. But I didn't put it all together to prove how awesome the SNES is, I did it because I love video games, SFII', pixel art, etc.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on May 31, 2013, 02:43:55 AM
Gah, this is turning from a really interesting thread into a dick measuring contest.
EvilEvoIX, please shut up, you're embarrassing yourself. This is like a child walking into a lab where two geneticists are comparing the genetics of rabbits and hares, and declaring "I like bunnies better because they're softer".
NOT THE POINT.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on May 31, 2013, 03:28:34 AM
EvilEvoIX, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Here's a hint... one talks shit, the other is dug with a shovel. Come back when you have some actual coding and/or hardware experience, eh? In the meantime, thanks for the laughs, but I'm afraid you're just too stupid for this thread.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 31, 2013, 03:36:21 AM
(http://i.imgflip.com/1r7ra.jpg)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 31, 2013, 03:40:54 AM
(http://i.imgflip.com/1r80o.jpg)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Opethian on May 31, 2013, 03:46:22 AM
all fart and no shit....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 31, 2013, 04:21:02 AM
Read my quote above, some good info in there from someone smarter then us
That post was from me, who you previously disagreed with and insulted in this thread.
So, maybe you are bad at reading.
The whole thing boils down to 6280 is a worthy competitor, that is on par or better than the 68k (outside of lots of 16bit operations), but requires a bit more finesse to get it to perform that way.
Also, the truth of the matter is, we are discussing the MD's CPU. It's a nice 68000 in the sense that it's a 68000, but.. it's no 68060. That's for sure.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 31, 2013, 06:15:09 AM
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The notion that the PCE CPU was entirely new was misleading as it is a revised version of the 65SC02 which was used in many other devices and computers. It was originally designed to compete against the Z80.
I'll give you props for using 65SC02 (also known as R65C02S and 65C02S). That was the last revision of the cpu (the one WDC was working on was abandoned; the 65CE02), and it was not done by WDC. Rockwell made a custom core with new instructions. It wasn't until later than WDC incorporated those instructions into the 65C02 core. The 6280 is branch of (back then at the time) and unofficial 65x core. The 6280 shares an interesting trait with the mitsubishi e740 (a super custom 65x modded core); the T flag. Though the T flag is much more usable on the e740 since it doesn't get cleared after every instruction. The 6280 wasn't meant to compete with the z80; the 2mhz 65c02 (not even the rockwell version needed) competed just fine. And the 6809 even more so. I think by the time the z80 got into 7-8mhz range, WDC was already moving onto the '816.
Anyway, do you understand what it means to 'revise' a hardwired cpu? The original 6502 design was fast because everything was hardware by hand. It was also fast and cheap, because it didn't have microcoded instructions (the z80 and 68k did). That means less transistors and faster instructions (not unlike the early RISC processors). Simply 'revising' the cpu, means adding new instructions by *hand*. And the fact that you need an engineer capable in this field (processors, specifically). And I'm completely disregarding the sound IC that's on the same cpu chip; that's just a consolidation into a single package to save on cost (not the same thing as adding new support and instructions). A lot was added to the r65c02s core to make the 6280 (including little more relaxed bus timings). A hell of a lot more expensive than just simple using an off the shelf processor (they also had to have these fabricated as well, which means more cost as well).
I do know the 68000 wasn't cheap in the 80's. And motorola didn't provide a freely licenseable core until some time in the 90's (for embedding into packages). The cost of the 6280 (they had to license the original core, higher an engineer/team to build this thing, and also fabricate it) was probably close if not on par to the cost of the 68k. If you put a 68k in the PCE, nothing would really change. And I've already stated that a 68k would actually be slower for hsync effects due to it's interrupt latency. What you get with a 6280, is a very fast processor at 7.16mhz (no other 65x ran that fast at the time) that put it in the league of higher end machines (arcades/computers) but with an instruction set that was familiar to anyone that coded on the 65x; mainly the dominating Famicom at the time. Developers could port game code very easily, both forwards and backwards. Or just transition to the new platform with little downtime. The power of the 16bit arcade systems, the familiarity of the older well known 65x.
258 cycles for 56 bytes, an average of 4.6 cycles / byte...
or
move.l (a0)+,(a1)+ / 20
you take 20 cycles for 4 bytes,an average of 5 cycles / byte, a transfer rate of 1.53 Mo/s.
It takes these values, regardless of the number to be copied, and makes a simple multiplication .
A jump table with a code list of "move.l (a0)+,(a1)+" would be the more practical of all of them. Though you could do the same with the one I provided for 4.62 cycle per byte as well, with a little more bloat to it (jump table and code list instead of a loop). Yeah, I don't see him getting a realistic 4.3 or 4.4cycle per byte transfer, unless they're fills.
I had done an object to object collision detection routine that I wrote for both the 68k and the 6280 (I was working on porting my code to the 68k MD at the time). The routine wasn't anything fancy (it was a simple X1,x2,y1,y2 compare check against another object). I had an object list that I would parse, if the object was active - I'd jump to the collision routine. The 68k and 6280 were about the same (the 6280 was either a few cycles faster or a few cycles slower), but the 68k one ended up being slower - because of the JSR/RTS overhead. I never understood why those two instructions where so slow. It's not like anything gets push or popped from the stack from these instructions.
Another interesting fact, though it doesn't really have any real barring on speed, was the MIPS of both processors. Not the max capable MIPS, but what games were doing in 1/60 frames. Exophase told me that his emulator calculated about ~1.8 MIPS for the average PCE game and that his friend that was doing an MD emulator said games tended to be about ~0.75 MIPS. That means the average instruction time for the PCE games were about 3.9 cycles (a little bit lower than I had predicted) and average instruction time on the MD was 10.22cycles. Just a reminder of how different these two processor architectures are.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2013, 06:30:04 AM
Look at this : http://youtu.be/2liTcrxOESA yes, this is on snes with his "crappy CPU", when this CPU is programmed by a master of 65xx, there is no slowdown, a lot of sprites on screen, lot of action, no sprites flicking .. Technicaly, this shoot is better than any Md ones . Can you imagine what he would do with a CPU clocked at 7mhz ?? You can see also his last game on C64, enforcer : http://youtu.be/x_1mMhJP6Xo Only with a 6510 @0,9 mhz, yes less THAN 1 MHZ ..
Hrm... That programmer loves putting lots of asteroids in his shooters : ) While both examples you list are technically impressive, from a fun standpoint I'm not really keen on shooting tons of asteroids for an entire level.
And what's really funny about both examples, and most of the back and forth here is that while the CPU is handling collision code, the actual blitting of BG and sprite objects is based on the VDP hardware and has a lot less to do with the CPU. Look at the Neo Geo vs the MD. Both are driven by the m68k CPU, but the Neo Geo had an insane amount of graphics and audio hardware in it. What made the Neo Geo special was not the CPU but all that custom hardware. It's ability to push sprite around and the flexible, if odd, audio setup was what defined the system, not the CPU.
Evo: It's like Tom has said repeatedly throughout the thread, the M68k is a "modern" CPU design. It wasn't necessarily valued for speed so much as easy of development and general robustness. The arcade boards that used it were successful for the same reason the Neo Geo was successful: they had killer video and audio capabilities. The CPU just sat in the background doing collision detection and keeping the show running. It was the video and audio hardware that pushed everything around on-screen and kept the tunes jamming. I imagine the M68k was as popular as it was because the clock speed scaled up better than some of the older CPU designs and because they could hack out some C programming for the main loop and collision detection and not have to get their hands dirty with tons of assembly code optimization.
If anyone wants to claim the M68k is a better CPU than the 6280, go ahead, but do it for the right reasons. The M68k is easy to develop for, is good at multiplication, has good support for the kinds of features an OS-based system needs, and supports higher clock speeds than previous chips. But when you get down the the metal and start comparing memory access latency, the clock cycles needed to perform core integer maths, etc... the older 8-bit CPUs hold up really well. Their biggest flaw was simply that they could be a real pain to get good performance from. The 6280 is a very capable CPU, but it takes more knowledge and more work to extract performance from it. The M68k has lots of low-hanging fruit, programming-wise. The 6280 makes you work for the performance. I would contend that that's a strong argument for the M68k being a "better" CPU, for some definitions of better, but when you look at some of the more striking examples of good code, it is clear that the 6280 is no performance slouch and can hold its own.
Tom has already pointed out that M68k code doesn't really optimize dramatically, because C code is already pretty optimal. The 6280 has lots of tricks and weirdness that can be exploited for speed. So crap code by novice programmers (like I hope to be someday) is probably going to run better on the M68k, but optimized code by experienced programmers will probably look much more similar from a performance profile. And that's what this discussion is about. It's not about whether the Genesis or the PCE is a superior platform. This thread is about theoretical optimized performance levels between two specific CPUs in the hands of experienced and capable programmers, which you (Evo) are not. I also am not, but because I'm a CPU/hardware wonk I can interpret, minimally, the discussion going on in here.
Tom, if I've summarized your statements incorrectly, please feel free to rip me a new one. Anyone else can sit on a tack : ) I trust Tom not to be an ass when correcting me.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 31, 2013, 06:35:34 AM
Tom, if I've summarized your statements incorrectly, please feel free to rip me a new one. Anyone else can sit on a tack : ) I trust Tom not to be an ass when correcting me.
Dude, you were spot on. :D
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 31, 2013, 06:59:53 AM
Lol, I have R2. It's a technically amazing game, especially consdering all the other stuff done on the SFC so far. Many Trenz is a coder legend.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 31, 2013, 07:10:13 AM
To be fair, Tom's not the only one who has said that stuff, repeatedly. lol.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2013, 07:19:55 AM
To be fair, Tom's not the only one who has said that stuff, repeatedly. lol.
True, you said some as well, and Touko, and Old Man, but Tom presented in the manner best structured and most easily digested by my brain.
Also, I wanted to have some specific reference points, and he's posted the most info in this thread.
Sorry if you guys feel dissed. I didn't mean to discount your contributions or knowledge. I just can parse Tom's stuff better mentally.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 31, 2013, 07:21:07 AM
Right, but the question is, can the person the stuff is really directed at (Evo)?
:)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 31, 2013, 08:01:21 AM
This is from a discussion from Steve Snake, me, Chilly Willy, Exophase. We were pretty much putting popular claims to the test.
This was a segment of example code Steve Snake wrote (note: before he made the famous Kega/Fusion emulator, he was a programmer for the MD and other platforms). It's a velocity update routine for an object (both X and Y directions):
These examples were trying to be in game logic context, but the prep part is actually unrealistic. I wouldn't be loading an immediate for X; it be from a object table (maybe adding 10 cycle or so more. The 68k one would be more than 10 cycles, for the same). But I did that because his (Steve Snake) fixed address for loading into A0 was a bit unrealistic as well (using LEA abs,a0 is basically a faster way to load an immediate into an address register than using move).
The 68k one is 108 cycle and the 6280 one is 98 cycles. While these aren't apples to apples straight comparison, relative to what needs to done/accomplished - I think they are directly comparable. The difference between the two are this: the 68k is using signed numbers (so you don't need to have four sets of routines) while the PCE version uses unsigned numbers and needs a jump table depending on one of the four directions the object is moving. The 68k one is using 32bit math; 16bit:16bit fixed point. So 16:16 + 16:16 -> 32bit. I consider this completely overkill. One, the whole number larger than 8bit mean you might not even see it move on screen (it could skip the screen entirely if aligned right); it's not needed. Two, 1/65535 of a pixel movement is overkill to me. Hell, even 1/256 is a little bit overkill. But... it's done out of reasons for convenience and speed.
So the 6280 one has a 16:8 (24bit) fixed point position for both X and Y. The scalar/speed is 8:8 (16bit). 24bit + 16bit -> 24bit. If I did a straight 32bit conversion of his code, then it'd be slower on the 6280. So it's adapted to what is needed, since the original is overkill. You could technically do an 8:8 fixed point position for X and Y (say for a clipped horizontal shootie or a vertical shootie) and speed it up, but I wanted a more realistic conversion of his code.
For reference, the '816 version was 80 cycles (not the SNES cpu version, since it has wait states on ram, so it's be closer to ~90 cycles) and used full 32bit variables like the 68k version (it was faster to do it that way on the '816 because of the lack of byte access opcodes).
Edit: There's nothing fancy or clever about my code, either. Sure, it uses split tables - but that's a given for any 65x array access that's larger than one byte width. No voodoo code there.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 31, 2013, 08:23:36 AM
Presumably, a faster clock speed would allow the chip to do more - but that's not always true (anyone else own a 486?) Given equal clock speeds, I think the 6502 core would outperform the 68000, based on the cycle counts Tom posted.
You think or you know? Ask your wife again, maybe she knows. The issue once again you brilliantly danced around is that toe to toe, head to head, the M68K handles more than the hu6280. No need to get upset or bring your wife into this, just saying is all…
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Must be one of those vile Amiga Fan Bois tarting up the 68K again....
what's your problem ???, the fact than a 8 bit processor, can compete with 68k ?? There is no troll on it, it's only the reality of code ..
We just took the case of game consoles, not in general use .
Look at this : http://youtu.be/2liTcrxOESA yes, this is on snes with his "crappy CPU", when this CPU is programmed by a master of 65xx, there is no slowdown, a lot of sprites on screen, lot of action, no sprites flicking .. Technicaly, this shoot is better than any Md ones . Can you imagine what he would do with a CPU clocked at 7mhz ?? You can see also his last game on C64, enforcer : http://youtu.be/x_1mMhJP6Xo Only with a 6510 @0,9 mhz, yes less THAN 1 MHZ ..
I got no problem with you, some people here think the M68K was over rated and some called this an act by Amiga lovers. I know the HU6280 can compete but as you posted earlier the 68K gets more things done doing 16bit operations, it’s just what it does.
Bonknuts seems to think you start propaganda since you like the Amiga, he has a real problem with you guys.
[. The only difference between you and EvilEvoX in discussions like this, is he championing the MD instead of SNES and is much more polite.
I'm going to go ahead and take this as a compliment in a sea of insults. Again I am not a MD fan boi but more of a M68K fan boi. The only reason I have so much Sega stuff as it is by far the cheapest to collect for. Games are like a dollar loose and the most I paid for an in the box is like $15. Turbo and Neo Stuff I pay the most for by far.
Gah, this is turning from a really interesting thread into a dick measuring contest.
EvilEvoIX, please shut up, you're embarrassing yourself. This is like a child walking into a lab where two geneticists are comparing the genetics of rabbits and hares, and declaring "I like bunnies better because they're softer".
NOT THE POINT.
Explain how when the title of this thread is " Md 68k and hu6280 comparison", and I post... "The M68K is faster and gets more done in less time". Is anything but the truth. Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo. The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD. Granted I go into rants about how a LOT of PCE games (To me for the love of god to me only in my opinion your results may vary) look 8-Bitish... :shock: That said I just dumped some serious cash in the system and play it daily so who's to complain am I right?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 31, 2013, 08:41:44 AM
I noticed that my original version used ZP for the 8:8 scaler. Speeds it up, but I'd rather use ZP for something better suited elsewhere. This version uses full addressing+indexing. To make up for the added cycle, I optimized the high byte of the whole number. Worst case scenario, it's the same cycle count as before (98 cycles). Best cast scenario, it's 88 cycles.
Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo. The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.
It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on May 31, 2013, 09:04:36 AM
Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo. The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.
It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.
Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are. People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level. You on the other hand took it personal, why? Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles? You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on May 31, 2013, 09:35:51 AM
Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo. The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.
It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.
Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are. People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level. You on the other hand took it personal, why? Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles? You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.
I think the whole problem would be solved, if you just left this thread alone. You're not programmer, you have nothing to contribute here, and yes - you have personally insulted people (I pretty sure that quip about old man and his wife was considered a direct insult). You're a gamer, fine. Go the gaming parts of this forum and talking about gaming. Leave this thread alone. You ARE trolling here. Do you not see this? You said your piece and your opinion (even though it have nothing to do with the discussion, nor did it contribute to it in any way possible. Quite the opposite. You are just bringing down this thread), fine. You have nothing left to say or contribute. Leave.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 31, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo. The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.
It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.
Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are. People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level. You on the other hand took it personal, why? Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles? You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.
I think the whole problem would be solved, if you just left this thread alone. You're not programmer, you have nothing to contribute here, and yes - you have personally insulted people (I pretty sure that quip about old man and his wife was considered a direct insult). You're a gamer, fine. Go the gaming parts of this forum and talking about gaming. Leave this thread alone. You ARE trolling here. Do you not see this? You said your piece and your opinion (even though it have nothing to do with the discussion, nor did it contribute to it in any way possible. Quite the opposite. You are just bringing down this thread), fine. You have nothing left to say or contribute. Leave.
Sorry to hear your feelings are hurt, I guess just F those Amiga guys then huh. I am sorry you are a hater and hate Amiga users and just bias over the 68K Propogandy started by Joseph Goebbels himself. I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally. I am sorry that you haven't admitted that the MD68K is faster than the HU6280 or as you put it "almost as fast."
Keep trying...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2013, 09:54:02 AM
Can we not use the word "cunt" when insulting each other, here? It is one of those highly charged words which the insulter may think is merely just another word, but which for many has some very negative connotations. Call him a pig f*cker or something, that's fine, but I would be very happy if "cunt" dropped out of the insult vernacular. It's almost up there with "nigger" in being offensive to many readers/listeners, and not just the insultee.
Please?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Necromancer on May 31, 2013, 10:01:19 AM
Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are. People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level. You on the other hand took it personal, why? Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?
I'm not angry - I just enjoy being vulgar for teh lulz.
You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.
You're the one avoiding the truth. Go back and re-read all the posts where specific examples were given to show operations that take more cycles (slower) on the MD; the coding guys have given you ample proof and explanation of how/why the two cpus are similarly speedy.
But we both know you won't bother and will continue to ignore every intelligent argument and example given. Keep your head in the sand!
And with that I'll take Tom's advice and ignore this troll. He's clearly not interested in actually learning anything.
But I am! From past discussions, didn't y'all say that 68k code ends up being bigger? It's not such a big deal nowadays, but it was back in the day when they had to pay for more ROM to get the same job done (eating into profits).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on May 31, 2013, 10:39:22 AM
But I am! From past discussions, didn't y'all say that 68k code ends up being bigger? It's not such a big deal nowadays, but it was back in the day when they had to pay for more ROM to get the same job done (eating into profits).
Ya know, that was the original assumption. Because the 68k instructions are fairly long byte wise, but in the discussion with Steve Snake and the others - turns out that the code generation is generally smaller. Sometime by half, but sometimes as much as 3/4 the size (this in bytes, not instructions). But code takes up the least amount of space in a game. Actually, very little compared to data, maps, tiles, sprites, tables, music, etc - all combined. For hucards, from what I looked at, code size is usually around 64k (Bonk 1 is 384k). Some are less but usually not much larger than 64k. Of course, if you think about the CDrom 2.0 - it only had 64k of 'cart' space. Code was smaller and while I haven't looked at CD 2.0 games, I'd be willing to bet it's closer to 32k for code. The rest of 32k for tilemap and such data. And most of the tiles and sprites are preloaded in vram already (some games used ADPCM ram to store additional stuff like text scripts or even graphics. The first Spriggan game used it for graphics).
Quote
And with that I'll take Tom's advice and ignore this troll. He's clearly not interested in actually learning anything.
I just now put him on ignore. At least for now. I'm sure there's a gamer inside there, somewhere, if he'd just stop acting like an ass.
Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?
It's not, fanboi dumbass. Are you even paying attention, or are you just rubbing your nuts with your Megadrive controller?
LOL!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 31, 2013, 11:07:04 AM
Evil, just get out of this f*cking thread already. You have no business in it until you at least have half an idea what you are talking about. Your on a direct path towards ostracizing yourself from this forum by nothing other then being totally ignorant, highly annoying, and thread crapping what was otherwise a great thread. Your approach to the subject is poorly put together and just keeps reading off as "The 68000 is better cause I know it is". Half of your argument and examples are terrible and most of the time are ones that actually rely on the Yamaha YM7101 and not just solely the M68000, like you have the inability to separate the two and the functions they actually handle and how they work together. Most effects you see done on the Genesis/Mega Drive have to do with the VDP in general as it is what is displaying them, not the cpu, though the cpu does assist in pacing/guiding the VDP to its glory. Its not that hard to understand, yet you seem totally incapable of distinguish between the two and totally unable to recognize or admit to a lot of the flaws of the Genesis (like your continuing to ignore the whole arcade ports being better on the PCE thing or how the Genesis suffered massive amounts of slowdown and flicker at times, or the terrible sound quality on many games).
This applies to basically all the classic game systems, and why they varied so much visually and audio wise concerning weakness and strength, especially concerning arcade game boards, and why you would see so much hardware having so many different abilities. Being a hardware enthusiast that I am, and seeing the Hu6280 used in such a wide degree of arcade boards, let alone in Nec's hardware, and to the same degree the 68000, I have seen them used enough, based on a wide spectrum of hands on experience with the games that actually used both to know both of them are fairly capable cpus both with strengths and weaknesses, and also that the one used in the Genesis is on the lower end of the line of Motorola 68000 processors clocked a lot lower then it should have been (lots of slow down on Genesis games anyone?). I also don't base my experience on emulators which can mask flaws that are very apparent when running on actual hardware, or a few instances of razzle dazzle that don't actually enhance gameplay.
I really wish you understood all of this, but you seem to really struggle with all of these facts as they are and it sounds like you did this to yourself on the Sega forum also. You seem to associate the power of the Genesis solely to the M68000, ignoring the fact that most of its visual power comes from its rather interesting but highly flawed YM7101, and you totally ignore things like the fact that most all the arcade ports were better on PCE. Basically it amounts to you giving far too much credit to the cpu instead of looking at the over all hardware capabilities. Your logic and choice to ignore facts, evidence, and examples from opposing parties make it impossible to see where you are coming from or to even empathize with you and your stance, and it just makes you come off as annoying and trolling. You're basically now that guy with his fingers in his ears saying "la la la".
Once you become that kind of guy it is almost impossible to save face amongst fellow forum members. People are always going to think of you as the obnoxious local fool who wont go away.
edit: saw the dismay at the use of "cunt". I always rather enjoy seeing the word being used. :wink:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: vestcoat on May 31, 2013, 11:49:42 AM
Evil: flaming can be fun, but insulting the guys who make games for the TurboGrafx is f*cking stupid. 1) you don't know what you're talking about. 2) they're way smarter than you. 3) you're going to want to buy something from them sooner or later.
As for Professorson, he doesn't make games, but he's technically astute and he'll tear you apart like a pitbull.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on May 31, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
Evil: flaming can be fun, but insulting the guys who make games for the TurboGrafx is f*cking stupid. 1) you don't know what you're talking about. 2) they're way smarter than you. 3) you're going to want to buy something from them sooner or later.
As for Professorson, he doesn't make games, but he's technically astute and he'll tear you apart like a pitbull.
Even when I'm on a off day and tired lol. I prob coulda typed up something better but meh... But yeah, don't even take my word for it, the fact that EvilEvoIX is ignoring actual programers etc whole speaks volumes of stupid.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on May 31, 2013, 04:13:26 PM
How 6280 can compete with Md 68k in performance ??? Of course in case of video game consoles, not in general use(like a computer) .
It seems that in bloc transfert ,the 68k is more capable (with more code of course) ..
You are correct for the most part. The MD68K was and is extremely capable to program for. It's a true 16bit CPU and could handle a greater work load when going toe to toe with the PCE. Is it an absolute smashing victory, no they were close but be careful if you share the knowledge of the MD68k superiority. They'll come with fire and pitch forks for you and god forbid you make a valid point because you'll be buried with excuses. Some programmers say the PCE CPU is superior while others argue in favor of the MD68k. For the most part they are biased and blame Amiga users for spreading 68K propaganda. A lot of thoretical debates are going on therorizing what is possible snd what is not. these old systems really pushed the envrlope and had some expert blabing about their condoles siperiority. He'll the SNES dprite limit is higher than the MD but we all know that it would just slow to a crawl. Just be careful and just play the games and enjoy them. Just keep the truth to yourself otherwise the pile on begins. You'd be surprised how different this argument goes on the SNES or the SEGA forums.
[/thread]
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on May 31, 2013, 05:36:43 PM
...are you done spewing stupid?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on May 31, 2013, 05:43:24 PM
Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are. People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level. You on the other hand took it personal, why? Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles? You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.
Tried to not be personal? You've insulted everyone at least once, basically. Heck you even said the Shadow of the Beast chiptune sounded like a joke. That's just braindead shenanigans. Go listen to the Genesis SOTB soundtrack. It sounds lame.
You are correct for the most part. The MD68K was and is extremely capable to program for. It's a true 16bit CPU and could handle a greater work load when going toe to toe with the PCE.
Now you're just parroting us. What validation can you provide to claims that something is extremely capable to program for. Also "extremely capable to program for" makes no sense really.
Also, the 68K is also 32-bit.
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no they were close but be careful if you share the knowledge of the MD68k superiority. They'll come with fire and pitch forks for you and god forbid you make a valid point because you'll be buried with excuses.
You made a valid point? When? Also, for some cases, we agreed the 68K has better capabilities. 1-800-ABC-DEFG, dude. They can help.
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Some programmers say the PCE CPU is superior while others argue in favor of the MD68k. For the most part they are biased and blame Amiga users for spreading 68K propaganda.
68K in an Amiga is a completely different story, not suited to this topic. Also, the Amiga benefitted from accelerators. A 86060 is pretty tits. No propaganda required.
There is no bias.
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You'd be surprised how different this argument goes on the SNES or the SEGA forums.
It went similarly on the NES forums awhile back.
It goes similarly on the C64 and Amiga forums when it comes up.
When people discuss the 68k vs. Apple IIs (most notably the IIc+ and GS), it goes similarly as well.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on May 31, 2013, 06:20:43 PM
(http://i.imgflip.com/1rle4.jpg)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on June 01, 2013, 01:19:57 AM
Sorry to hear your feelings are hurt, I guess just F those Amiga guys then huh. I am sorry you are a hater and hate Amiga users and just bias over the 68K Propogandy started by Joseph Goebbels himself. I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally. I am sorry that you haven't admitted that the MD68K is faster than the HU6280 or as you put it "almost as fast."
Keep trying...
just stop guy, and look : This was done only with a 65816 @3.5/2.5 mhz cpu . Do you think that a 6280 @7.16 mhz can not do more ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 01, 2013, 01:29:57 AM
R2 stage 7 is so rad.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 05:57:03 AM
My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?) I mean…. Once you start hearing “Cunt Drip” and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!! Some of you have lost it. Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are “programmers” and what you say goes. Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with “I’m a lawyer”. Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you. I’m not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE. I don’t think it’s possible with the amount of cash I just dumped into my PCE collection so moving on. What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.
So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280. The MD68K was better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz. I guess if you are doing “8-Bit” things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of “8-Bit” looking games running at AMAZING speeds.
Patented Fan Boi Argument 1
It’s not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you’d see it’s on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.
While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let’s take a close look at it.
First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:
A PC Engine A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1 You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire. You had to purchase Sapphire.
In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game. God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.
Now let’s look at the game and how it plays.
Music? Kicks ass, amazing cd pumping sound and great tunes. Sound FX, takes a big step down. We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I’m not going to bash what I already know is true. I don’t think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn’t provide the best sound FX and or music but once again could argue the artistic merit of the bleeps and bloops and enjoy that so to each it’s own and I personally enjoy all the music of Bonk and Bloody Wolf for some reason. Legenday Ax II is epic. But it’s not pumping out what the MD and the SNES did in comparison, so let’s move on.
Grafx. First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this. You also notice that even some of the animation is done by pallet swapping, again a favor in the wealth of colors the HU6280 can display. Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds. Lots of sprites moving around on screen and little slow down. What is expected and is displayed time and time again on the PCE in the terms of a shooter that would make the SNES melt.
There is nothing going on that the MD68K can’t handle in except color. The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did. You could argue that it is an advantage for a 2D sprite based machine. You would then add in additional scrolling backgrounds, larger sprites and as stated more of them the game could have done more. These are practical advantages and not dubious such as the SNES having an even higher sprite limit yet would melt before reaching it. That’s why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.
I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it. What is happening that can’t happen on the MD68K? Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster. You’d lose the CD music but that is to be expected.
Sapphire came out in 1995 two, way late in the systems life. Look at the 1995 releases on the MD. I keep pointing to Vectorman which also came out in 1995 and wouldn’t be represented well on the PCE. The amount of sprites and animation and very little slow down and giant fast bosses, the MD68K was simply and I mean simply more capable.
What does this mean? Does it mean the games are better or worse? It means whatever you want it to mean. Hardware superiority again means nothing without software to back it up. The PCE had kick ass software. So did the MD. So what if the MD had a faster processor, I put Mega Man 2-3 up against 90% of games on either the MD or PCE in music alone.
So put away your pitch forks and pull back your angry racial epithets and understand what II just posted is not propaganda, isn’t made up, it simply states what is truth.
Thank you
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: esteban on June 02, 2013, 07:30:03 AM
STATUS: Comrades, you have been trying to use logic and evidence to identify the convoluted elements of EvvyEvIV's argument.
I have a simpler solution that speaks to EvvyEvIV at his level...here is the Truth (RC Pro Am on NES is better than 99% of MD/PCE/SFC/NEOGEO games). Also, (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown3.html)
no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280. The MD68K was better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.
I do believe it's been stated MULTIPLE times that the MD68K is NOT faster OR better than the Hu6280. It is simply different. It is better for some things, and worse for others... faster for some things, slower for others. Of course, this reality won't ever penetrate that concrete shell you call a skull.
We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I’m not going to bash what I already know is true.
A low-grade Yamaha FM chip is "superior sound hardware"? Dream on, fanboy. Again, it's simply different. It is in no way superior. It also has nothing to do with the CPU.
The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did.
This is a complete lie. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the sprite capabilities of the two machines. Furthermore, this also has nothing to do with the CPU.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 02, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are “programmers” and what you say goes.
www.aetherbyte.com (http://www.aetherbyte.com/) <<< Note the games released on multiple platforms. 8)
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What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.
That's what we've been doing this entire time. You just don't understand what we're talking about.
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So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280. The MD68K was better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz. I guess if you are doing “8-Bit” things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of “8-Bit” looking games running at AMAZING speeds.
Just recently, before I corrected you, you were saying it was 16-bit. Now you say it's a hybrid. That's cute.
You don't seem to understand what is meant by 8 vs 16 bit operations. It has nothing to do with anything you see visually.
Someone else pointed this out, elsewhere: http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9338 This game uses a 68000. Games like Contra use 8-bit CPUs. Note how shitty Road Runner looks in comparison.
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It’s not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you’d see it’s on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.
Comparing only a subset of a library is stupid. It'd be like only looking at US released Sega CD games. Yknow, all those really shitty FMV games that everyone laughs at like Double Switch and Ground Zero Texas or whatever.
Take those away and you're left with like 10 good US games:
Silpheed Lunar 1 and 2 Vay Shining Force CD Popful Mail Rise of the Dragon Ecco Flashback Sol Feace Android Assault
and some of those have cartridge counterparts that are basically the same thing.
That's why it's best to compare the library of games from the country of origin so you get the full effect, instead of whatever was localized, and whatever was probably done poorly.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on June 02, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
According to EvilEvoIX's "math", the HU6280 is a 21/8 bit hybrid.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 02, 2013, 09:35:32 AM
no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280. The MD68K was better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.
I do believe it's been stated MULTIPLE times that the MD68K is NOT faster OR better than the Hu6280. It is simply different. It is better for some things, and worse for others... faster for some things, slower for others. Of course, this reality won't ever penetrate that concrete shell you call a skull.
We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I’m not going to bash what I already know is true.
A low-grade Yamaha FM chip is "superior sound hardware"? Dream on, fanboy. Again, it's simply different. It is in no way superior. It also has nothing to do with the CPU.
The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did.
This is a complete lie. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the sprite capabilities of the two machines. Furthermore, this also has nothing to do with the CPU.
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster. So yeah it is indeed different. Bashing the MD's sound capabilities is a tough one in comparison to the PCE. Obvious people may prefer the one or the other stylistically but listening to say streets of rage or vectorman the music is just much clearer and real instruments distinguishable. So there is no need to get upset just listen to the chip tunes, if you think there is something that rivals the MD lemy hear it. Org wise I just chill with the cd music. The sound fx are kinda poor for the late 80's early to mid 90's. I mean you have to hear it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 10:03:30 AM
Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are “programmers” and what you say goes.
www.aetherbyte.com (http://www.aetherbyte.com/) <<< Note the games released on multiple platforms. 8)
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What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.
That's what we've been doing this entire time. You just don't understand what we're talking about.
Quote
So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280. The MD68K was better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz. I guess if you are doing “8-Bit” things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of “8-Bit” looking games running at AMAZING speeds.
Just recently, before I corrected you, you were saying it was 16-bit. Now you say it's a hybrid. That's cute.
You don't seem to understand what is meant by 8 vs 16 bit operations. It has nothing to do with anything you see visually.
Someone else pointed this out, elsewhere: http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9338 This game uses a 68000. Games like Contra use 8-bit CPUs. Note how shitty Road Runner looks in comparison.
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It’s not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you’d see it’s on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.
Comparing only a subset of a library is stupid. It'd be like only looking at US released Sega CD games. Yknow, all those really shitty FMV games that everyone laughs at like Double Switch and Ground Zero Texas or whatever.
Take those away and you're left with like 10 good US games:
Silpheed Lunar 1 and 2 Vay Shining Force CD Popful Mail Rise of the Dragon Ecco Flashback Sol Feace Android Assault
and some of those have cartridge counterparts that are basically the same thing.
That's why it's best to compare the library of games from the country of origin so you get the full effect, instead of whatever was localized, and whatever was probably done poorly.
Why are talking about sega cd? It has a faster processor than the MD68k and then additional scaling and rotation. What's cute is how personally people are taking this. I know the MD68k can handle multiple addresses such as 16 bit and 32bit. The PCE does 8-bit things better. not doing Alien Soldier, sorry. Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back. I also know it does so better than the PCE. More sprites, more detail, faster. It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement.
Yes yes yes the Sega CD had a lot if dog turds and already stated that the PCE CD has better game. I have a bunch of them and am hammering away at them as we speak. FMV shit but I still enjoy Sewer Shark and even limp through monkey island for the music. Now back to Red Alert.....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on June 02, 2013, 10:12:51 AM
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.
No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 02, 2013, 10:34:59 AM
Dude...just...stahp. Please. Make a thread for your grossly overzealous Sega-wank bullshit if you absolutely must, but I guarantee you nobody here wants to hear it, especially since half the shit you're spouting isn't even true.
I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 10:37:19 AM
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.
No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot. Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage. The MD was also more versatile in displaying sprites with any combination of 8-16-24-32 tall or wide.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
Why does this guy keep confusing the VDP with the CPU? He starts bringing up sprite display capabilities, I mean, thats in the realm of the VDP, not the CPU to decide. Is his argument for the cpu anymore, or the VDP, or the entire thing? Does he even know? And why does he keep bringing up Cosmic Carnage Action Game Birdman Edition as an example of the 68000s power? The VDP is behind that mainly, not the 68000(note, the game also suffers from slowdown issues,etc even after having a massive sized basic black status bar).
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.
No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot. Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.
You totally confused what he said there. :roll: It is just a shining example of how little you actually know.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on June 02, 2013, 10:39:49 AM
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My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?) I mean…. Once you start hearing “Cunt Drip” and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!! Some of you have lost it.
Quotes from EvilEvoX in this same thread-
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Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with “I’m a lawyer”.
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Patented Fan Boi Argument 1
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What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.
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Butt-hurt? Sorry you feel that way :/
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Are we to judge the TG-16 based upon Bravo-Man or the pile of shit we westerners were given? Everyone is quick to make excuses for that plague of shit and everyone looks passed that. So I say we get to look passed piles of shit on the MD as well and there are bad PORTS but you mean to tell me a game like UMK3 would run as well, with as much animation and speed, and proper sound FX; dreaming.
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Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no f*cking way.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.
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Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner. I've played the games, they are fun, stop it. You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit.
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Just because I didn’t sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn’t mean I don’t know what these systems can do.
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What the f*ck was I thinking?
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Fon Boi facts aside it is a better processor.
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I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.
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Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you.
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Trouble is everyone I know or ever knew seems to agree with me, in fact this is the only site that seems to have trouble understanding what is obvious to anyone with a pair of ears and eyes.
On Sega-16, a Genesis/Mega Drive centric site, the programmers there said pretty much the same things that the programmers here are saying. You were ridiculed by everyone (not just programmers) much more on that site than here.
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The amount of excuses being made and the amount of facts just obliterated are beyond even what I get on www.neo-geo.com (http://www.neo-geo.com/) and that is saying something.
So this is yet another forum where people actually don't agree with you?
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I’m not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE.
Except these examples in this same thread-
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Music? Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD.
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Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness. What excuse is there? Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD? Look how choppy and darty the animation is? The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card. And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?
Here is a great example of true "fan boi" "rose colored glasses" and just inability to judge graphics in general. That CD intro? It's terrible and features zero "Animation". That "8-bit shittyness" looks much better than the Mega Drive version, with more detail, shading and better color. As for "choppy and darty the animation", again it is the exact opposite in reality and yet another way the PCE version is noticeably better. I'm guessing that you've never heard the sound running off of real hardware, but you've already established that you hate all PCE sound by default of being from the PCE, no matter how similar any particular game may sound to the Mega Drive version.
8-BIT SHITTYNESS <---------------------> NOT choppy and darty the animation (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/JuuoukiJ-091212_1756.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/AlteredBeastUEREV02_002.gif)
I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one. I have all the games now as well and years of experience.
You refused to comment on so many games during Sega-16 discussions, so I'll ask you again, if you've played all the games, even if only roms and isos, what did you think of Anearth Fantasy Stories, Gulliver Boy, Legend of Xanadu I & II, Ys IV and Cosmic Fantasy IV Chapters 1 & 2?
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You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
The Sega-CD is a hardware upgrade. It replaces the Genesis "MD68K" cpu with a more powerful one and adds new graphics capabilities (among other things). The PCE CD-ROM only allows the same old PCE cpu to run games the exact same way, while also controlling a CD drive, streaming CD music and using adpcm samples through an extra channel (many games don't use any of those additions much of the time). Although you are correct that it shouldn't be fair to compare the powerful Sega-CD hardware to a PCE CD-ROM setup... the PCE CD still has more impressive 2D games than the Sega-CD. All powered exclusively by the hu6820.
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I feel the Turbo used it's CD technology better than the Sega CD. Mostly because of the FMV shovel ware.
So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.
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I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?
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While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let’s take a close look at it.
First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:
A PC Engine A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1 You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire. You had to purchase Sapphire.
In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game. God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.
If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:
A Mega Drive A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor A Mega Modem A Mega-CD A Super 32X An Action Replay A Mega Key A copy of Sonic & Knuckles A cleaning kit cart A copy of the game
That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do. :roll:
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I don’t think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn’t provide the best sound FX
You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.
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First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.
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Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.
It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.
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There is nothing going on that the MD68K can’t handle in except color. The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did.
There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.
I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.
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That’s why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.
You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.
Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.
The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.
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I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it. What is happening that can’t happen on the MD68K? Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.
Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.
The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 10:51:09 AM
My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?) I mean…. Once you start hearing “Cunt Drip” and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!! Some of you have lost it.
Quotes from EvilEvoX in this same thread-
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Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with “I’m a lawyer”.
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Patented Fan Boi Argument 1
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What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.
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Butt-hurt? Sorry you feel that way :/
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Are we to judge the TG-16 based upon Bravo-Man or the pile of shit we westerners were given? Everyone is quick to make excuses for that plague of shit and everyone looks passed that. So I say we get to look passed piles of shit on the MD as well and there are bad PORTS but you mean to tell me a game like UMK3 would run as well, with as much animation and speed, and proper sound FX; dreaming.
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Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no f*cking way.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.
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Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner. I've played the games, they are fun, stop it. You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit.
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Just because I didn’t sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn’t mean I don’t know what these systems can do.
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What the f*ck was I thinking?
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Fon Boi facts aside it is a better processor.
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I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.
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Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you.
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Trouble is everyone I know or ever knew seems to agree with me, in fact this is the only site that seems to have trouble understanding what is obvious to anyone with a pair of ears and eyes.
On Sega-16, a Genesis/Mega Drive centric site, the programmers there said pretty much the same things that the programmers here are saying. You were ridiculed by everyone (not just programmers) much more on that site than here.
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The amount of excuses being made and the amount of facts just obliterated are beyond even what I get on www.neo-geo.com (http://www.neo-geo.com/) and that is saying something.
So this is yet another forum where people actually don't agree with you?
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I’m not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE.
Except these examples in this same thread-
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Music? Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD.
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Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.
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Look at f*cking Altered Beast? Why is that shittyness ignored? Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE. Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness. What excuse is there? Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD? Look how choppy and darty the animation is? The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card. And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?
Here is a great example of true "fan boi" "rose colored glasses" and just inability to judge graphics in general. That CD intro? It's terrible and features zero "Animation". That "8-bit shittyness" looks much better than the Mega Drive version, with more detail, shading and better color. As for "choppy and darty the animation", again it is the exact opposite in reality and yet another way the PCE version is noticeably better. I'm guessing that you've never heard the sound running off of real hardware, but you've already established that you hate all PCE sound by default of being from the PCE, no matter how similar any particular game may sound to the Mega Drive version.
8-BIT SHITTYNESS <---------------------> NOT choppy and darty the animation (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/JuuoukiJ-091212_1756.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/AlteredBeastUEREV02_002.gif)
I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one. I have all the games now as well and years of experience.
You refused to comment on so many games during Sega-16 discussions, so I'll ask you again, if you've played all the games, even if only roms and isos, what did you think of Anearth Fantasy Stories, Gulliver Boy, Legend of Xanadu I & II, Ys IV and Cosmic Fantasy IV Chapters 1 & 2?
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You really can’t compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.
The Sega-CD is a hardware upgrade. It replaces the Genesis "MD68K" cpu with a more powerful one and adds new graphics capabilities (among other things). The PCE CD-ROM only allows the same old PCE cpu to run games the exact same way, while also controlling a CD drive, streaming CD music and using adpcm samples through an extra channel (many games don't use any of those additions much of the time). Although you are correct that it shouldn't be fair to compare the powerful Sega-CD hardware to a PCE CD-ROM setup... the PCE CD still has more impressive 2D games than the Sega-CD. All powered exclusively by the hu6820.
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I feel the Turbo used it's CD technology better than the Sega CD. Mostly because of the FMV shovel ware.
So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.
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I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?
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While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let’s take a close look at it.
First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:
A PC Engine A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1 You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire. You had to purchase Sapphire.
In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game. God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.
If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:
A Mega Drive A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor A Mega Modem A Mega-CD A Super 32X An Action Replay A Mega Key A copy of Sonic & Knuckles A cleaning kit cart A copy of the game
That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do. :roll:
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I don’t think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn’t provide the best sound FX
You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.
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First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.
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Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.
It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.
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There is nothing going on that the MD68K can’t handle in except color. The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did.
There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.
I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.
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That’s why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.
You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.
Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.
The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.
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I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it. What is happening that can’t happen on the MD68K? Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.
Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.
The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.
I'm sorry am I supposed to read all that? I saw the fan boi genesis stacker series of hardware and its cute. It's also cute to compare cd storage of animation to cart storage, really is an apples to apples example. Did you even sit down and play altered beast for the PCE vs the MD! Are you sure you want to make that argument? Should I say that that MD68k is faster and moves more sprites faster and alien soldier could not be done on the PCE yet the MD could handle Sapphire without arcade card upgrades and add a multiple scrolling background to give some visual if depth? Yes PCE CD games rule I'm playing one now. Get over the sprite limit and move on. Also I already stated that the PCE cd rom to me is better. I have a stack of sega cd games that just collect dust and I've been running through most of my PCE cd games burned or otherwise. Beats the shit outa emulators. Sega cd just had a lot of clunkers IMHO. No real graphical upgrades except cd sound. Batman retuns I liked the driving and even cliff hanger the snow bonding. I don't play RPGs. Just saying....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 02, 2013, 10:54:21 AM
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot. Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.
The MD can handle "more sprites on screen at once", but the PCE can handle more sprite PIXELS on screen at once. So which one is actually better, especially when you consider that sprites are often used for things like scenery and HUDs and shit.
So, PCE can move more pixels around at a time than the MD, and with better colors, to boot.
The PCE does 8-bit things better. not doing Alien Soldier, sorry. Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back. I also know it does so better than the PCE. More sprites, more detail, faster. It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement.
Monopoly on what information? No one here is acting like we just unveiled some huge surprise. We're stating fairly obvious things, assuming you have any bearing on CPUs and programming.
Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm? The PC Engine can do that. The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.
Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 02, 2013, 10:59:14 AM
Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm? The PC Engine can do that. The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.
Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...
Alien Soldier, Arkhan.
Not like it actually matters because it's still completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 11:03:28 AM
Just Christ what do you guys want from me? Is it my fault that the folks at NEC released a plague of shitty 8 bit looking games in the west and in order to get any comparable game you needed a converter and 3 system card upgrades just get on an even playing field? Why do people keep masturbating to SAPPHIRE its a great game and all but not the end all be all. The MD68k and the PC engine are comparable. I get it I know it. Lets are it pull off some of the arcade craziness the MD did, it didn't. It couldn't. Why am I bring crucified?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on June 02, 2013, 11:04:53 AM
^ This user is currently ignored.
:(
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on June 02, 2013, 11:09:06 AM
touko: Sorry that EvilEvoIX ruined this thread. I don't see any point in furthering this discussion if people have to wade through all this crap just to read what is topic related (even ourselves). If you create a new one, I'd be happy to join in (rather not have to do this on another site forum, but if so then no problem. Maybe MooZ's forum). Maybe the mods can somehow keep EvilEvoIX out of it. Dunno.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 02, 2013, 11:12:17 AM
We get it, Evo. Sega does what NECan't & we unfairly "crucified" you for hijacking a thread to purvey your dumbassery.
Now who's butthurt?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on June 02, 2013, 11:16:44 AM
f*cking dick. I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here. If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: PunkicCyborg on June 02, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
f*cking dick. I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here. If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.
lol i doubt aaron has even looked at this site in months
I didnt follow much of the tech heavy stuff at first but am dissapointed this clown had to ruin a thread that could help people interested in working on these systems. Maybe a general opinion md vs pce thread would be better suited for this kind of argument evilevo is going for.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on June 02, 2013, 11:28:16 AM
See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.
Just because it handles more sprite blocks doesn't mean it handles more sprites. Look, moron...
MD: 80 sprites at 32x32 = 16 cells * 80 sprite blocks = 1280 cells max PCE: 64 sprites at 32x64 = 32 cells * 64 sprite blocks = 2048 cells max
Yes... you're an idiot if you don't get this.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I like the part where he started crying about data size and data storage ( games on cd-rom) being the big advantage for the PCE saying its not fair to bring that stuff up, opting for ignorance concerning the fact that regardless of the data storage method, its still the HuC6280A + HuC6260 + HuC6270A doing the actual work, presenting the end results on screen, all of which are found in the core of the system, not the cd drive. Other then that, everything else he posted was laughable or ignorant, take your pick.
edit: I owned and played Altered Beast Cd a lot a few years back. I even submitted a video of it on youtube capped off real hardware (I still have the video if anyone wants me to resubmit it). The soundtrack for the game actually sounds pretty good, and visually the game is easily better looking and a better arcade port then the Genesis port. There is nothing wrong with the speed of the game or how it moves on PCE, it feels like the arcade game. Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 02, 2013, 12:28:23 PM
Tom, Touko, others, I've really enjoyed the technical stuff. We can all put Evo on ignore and then we can see the text that matters.
I love these programming discussions.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 12:47:29 PM
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #150 on: Today at 03:25:37 PM »
Quote from: soop on Today at 03:16:44 PM f*cking dick. I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here. If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil. lol i doubt aaron has even looked at this site in months
I didnt follow much of the tech heavy stuff at first but am dissapointed this clown had to ruin a thread that could help people interested in working on these systems. Maybe a general opinion md vs pce thread would be better suited for this kind of argument evilevo is going for.
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #151 on: Today at 03:28:16 PM »
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:37:19 PM See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot. Just because it handles more sprite blocks doesn't mean it handles more sprites. Look, moron...
MD: 80 sprites at 32x32 = 16 cells * 80 sprite blocks = 1280 cells max PCE: 64 sprites at 32x64 = 32 cells * 64 sprite blocks = 2048 cells max
Yes... you're an idiot if you don't get this. Report to moderator Logged http://www.obeybrew.com/ - The home for PCE homebrew When you want to give up, just think of the people who would love to see you fail... don't give them that pleasure. ProfessorProfessorson Punchy Pedro
Posts: 1723
Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #152 on: Today at 04:04:45 PM »
I like the part where he started crying about data size and data storage ( games on cd-rom) being the big advantage for the PCE saying its not fair to bring that stuff up, opting for ignorance concerning the fact that regardless of the data storage method, its still the HuC6280A + HuC6260 + HuC6270A doing the actual work, presenting the end results on screen, all of which are found in the core of the system, not the cd drive. Other then that, everything else he posted was laughable or ignorant, take your pick.
edit: I owned and played Altered Beast Cd a lot a few years back. I even submitted a video of it on youtube capped off real hardware (I still have the video if anyone wants me to resubmit it). The soundtrack for the game actually sounds pretty good, and visually the game is easily better looking and a better arcade port then the Genesis port. There is nothing wrong with the speed of the game or how it moves on PCE, it feels like the arcade game. Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it. « Last Edit: Today at 04:28:42 PM by ProfessorProfessorson » Report to moderator Logged "One mans lies are another mans truths"
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #153 on: Today at 04:28:23 PM »
Tom, Touko, others, I've really enjoyed the technical stuff. We can all put Evo on ignore and then we can see the text that matters.
I love these programming discussions. Report to moderator Logged My meager PC Engine Collection so far.
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 22, 2008, 08:58:57 AM it allows you to play the uber awesome sapphire! it's made of pure unbelivable magic! respect is due!
So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.
I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.
Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?
While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let’s take a close look at it.
First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:
A PC Engine A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1 You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire. You had to purchase Sapphire.
In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game. God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.
If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:
A Mega Drive A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor A Mega Modem A Mega-CD A Super 32X An Action Replay A Mega Key A copy of Sonic & Knuckles A cleaning kit cart A copy of the game
God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.
That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do.
I don’t think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn’t provide the best sound FX
You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.
First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.
Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.
It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.
There is nothing going on that the MD68K can’t handle in except color. The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that. It’s just what the hardware did.
There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.
I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.
That’s why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.
You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.
Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.
The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.
I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it. What is happening that can’t happen on the MD68K? Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.
Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.
The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.
I'm sorry am I supposed to read all that? I saw the fan boi genesis stacker series of hardware and its cute. It's also cute to compare cd storage of animation to cart storage, really is an apples to apples example. Did you even sit down and play altered beast for the PCE vs the MD! Are you sure you want to make that argument? Should I say that that MD68k is faster and moves more sprites faster and alien soldier could not be done on the PCE yet the MD could handle Sapphire without arcade card upgrades and add a multiple scrolling background to give some visual if depth? Yes PCE CD games rule I'm playing one now. Get over the sprite limit and move on. Also I already stated that the PCE cd rom to me is better. I have a stack of sega cd games that just collect dust and I've been running through most of my PCE cd games burned or otherwise. Beats the shit outa emulators. Sega cd just had a lot of clunkers IMHO. No real graphical upgrades except cd sound. Batman retuns I liked the driving and even cliff hanger the snow bonding. I don't play RPGs. Just saying....
« Last Edit: Today at 02:58:31 PM by EvilEvoIX » Report to moderator 71.187.26.211
Arkhan Punchy Pedro
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #143 on: Today at 02:54:21 PM »
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:37:19 PM See this is what I'm talking about, semantics. You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot. Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.
The MD can handle "more sprites on screen at once", but the PCE can handle more sprite PIXELS on screen at once. So which one is actually better, especially when you consider that sprites are often used for things like scenery and HUDs and shit.
So, PCE can move more pixels around at a time than the MD, and with better colors, to boot.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on Today at 02:03:30 PM The PCE does 8-bit things better. not doing Alien Soldier, sorry. Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back. I also know it does so better than the PCE. More sprites, more detail, faster. It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement. Monopoly on what information? No one here is acting like we just unveiled some huge surprise. We're stating fairly obvious things, assuming you have any bearing on CPUs and programming.
Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm? The PC Engine can do that. The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.
Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...
Report to moderator Logged [Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope [Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #144 on: Today at 02:59:14 PM »
Quote from: Arkhan on Today at 02:54:21 PM
Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm? The PC Engine can do that. The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.
Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...
Alien Soldier, Arkhan.
Not like it actually matters because it's still completely irrelevant. « Last Edit: Today at 03:01:28 PM by VenomMacbeth » Report to moderator Logged
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #145 on: Today at 03:03:28 PM » Quote Modify Just Christ what do you guys want from me? Is it my fault that the folks at NEC released a plague of shitty 8 bit looking games in the west and in order to get any comparable game you needed a converter and 3 system card upgrades just get on an even playing field? Why do people keep masturbating to SAPPHIRE its a great game and all but not the end all be all. The MD68k and the PC engine are comparable. I get it I know it. Lets are it pull off some of the arcade craziness the MD did, it didn't. It couldn't. Why am I bring crucified?
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #146 on: Today at 03:04:53 PM »
^ This user is currently ignored.
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Quote from: Arkhan on July 11, 2012, 02:01:39 PM why did you put this in the Turbob section! Xanaduder is a PCE game!
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #147 on: Today at 03:09:06 PM »
touko: Sorry that EvilEvoIX ruined this thread. I don't see any point in furthering this discussion if people have to wade through all this crap just to read what is topic related (even ourselves). If you create a new one, I'd be happy to join in (rather not have to do this on another site forum, but if so then no problem. Maybe MooZ's forum). Maybe the mods can somehow keep EvilEvoIX out of it. Dunno. Report to moderator Logged http://pcedev.wordpress.com/ VenomMacbeth Venus Bonktrap
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #148 on: Today at 03:12:17 PM »
We get it, Evo. Sega does what NECan't & we unfairly "crucified" you for hijacking a thread to purvey your dumbassery.
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Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison « Reply #149 on: Today at 03:16:44 PM »
f*cking dick. I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here. If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil. Report to moderator Logged http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/463/show-collection.htm
Quote from: Arkhan on July 11, 2012, 02:01:39 PM why did you put this in the Turbob section! Xanaduder is a PCE game!
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
"The English hate music, but they absolutely love the noise it makes."
Wait a minute, did I say that the MD68k was faster than the HU6280? Oh shit I completely got that backwards. I meant that the HU6280 was faster than the MD68K. I got that whole thing BACKWARDS!!!! What a silly goose i am. WHOOPS, ohhhhh is my face red. What a silly mistake that was. Ooooopsie-doodles. Oh well, at least there was no harm done. Thanks guys really cool site and community.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 12:50:25 PM
Oh my, look at that, the werewolf zips across the screen on PCE just as fast as the retarded robo-birdman in Cosmic Carnage Action Game on Mega Drive 68K Burning Heart of Brown Colors, but did it years earlier and in more colors then red, brown, and grey. Also, listen to those crisp sounding sound fx not present on the MD port, let alone look, its the correct sprite artwork not found on MD also. Yeah....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 02, 2013, 01:05:17 PM
Oh, right, Alien Soldier
Yes because the PCE cant do like 4-8 sprites on screen and multi-layer scrolling.
Alien Soldier is flashy and fancy looking because of the background and the obnoxious explosions. The rest of the game is pretty, well, typical?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 01:08:32 PM
Grafx. First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.
So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?
I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:
Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.
Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here :lol:
Grafx. First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.
So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?
I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:
Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.
Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here :lol:
Grafx. First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.
So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?
I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:
Unless you suddenly bought a System 1.0 card Evo, I don't even see how you could have played it on the Duo-R I sold you, since I did not include one with it.
Oh, he could have play throug the whole stage one easily. But I don't think the Sys card 1.0 was the limitation here :lol:
I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.
hmm.. :?
According to this site all the MD can display is brown. This thread is basically a comparison between the MD68K and the HU6280. Yes I know the VDP displays the colors using RGB in bit format. Again semantics. Argue the processor please.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 02, 2013, 03:19:31 PM
Grafx. First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.
You see, this very intelligent and masterly statement of yours alone proves, that you have absolutely ZERO (0) knowledge about what you're talking about.
So the MD68K does have any colors? Tell me then smart boy, where are these colors exactly located inside the 68K? And how comes, that other hardwares using the very same 68K have way more colors than the one used in the MD?
I'm waiting eagerly to a logical explanation of yours genius :!:
According to this site all the MD can display is brown.
Knock of that bullshit and bring us a correct answer with some substantiated fact onto the table. Prove us just once, what great stunner and ingenious chap you are.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
According to this site all the MD can display is brown. This thread is basically a comparison between the MD68K and the HU6280. Yes I know the VDP displays the colors using RGB in bit format. Again semantics. Argue the processor please.
Actually we are just trolling you for your ultimate retardedness in thinking that all the tricks you saw the Genesis do on screen had to do with the 68000, and your total lack of knowledge concerning the VDP, how it works, what it does, everything concerning sprites and background scrolling, etc. About everyone here knows it can do more then display brown. The fact is though you think the Genesis system, and the 68000 in general, seems to do alot more then it does or is capable of, while most others here recognize and admit to its limits as a game system and the limits of the 68000 cpu. In most peoples eyes here its a good system, but we don't trump it up as the be all end all and candy coat that trump up with a couple spoons of Alien Soldier and ResQ on top while spitting out absolute nonsense about the Pc Engine.
(note I should know it does more then display the color brown. I'm one of the few that refined the svideo mod for the damn things Model 1 and Xeye. Pfft, obviously it can do 62 shades of brown, not one or 50 or anything.)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on June 02, 2013, 03:37:33 PM
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 03:49:52 PM
I like turtles. That said everyone and their mother knew this thread would go to hell in a hand basket. Even if it was just CPU vs CPU. People just started bringing up more or bs and I went down the hole. Yes I know what a VDP is and how it displays RGB in bit format. We are simply looking at cpu's. that and Altered Beast on the PCE sucks.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 02, 2013, 03:52:30 PM
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Damn, those are some heavy questions to answer and also so many at once. Not sure our candidate here will be capable of accomplishing this high task asked (purely judged from all his previous answers and comments done so far).
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Damn, those are some heavy questions to answer and also so many at once. Not sure our candidate here will be capable of accomplishing this high task asked (purely judged from all his previous answers and comments done so far).
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Damn, those are some heavy questions to answer and also so many at once. Not sure our candidate here will be capable of accomplishing this high task asked (purely judged from all his previous answers and comments done so far).
Funny, I was unsure if you were capable of counting sprites?
Have not exact clue of what you are trying here to tell me again, but I just had an other idea of why not showing your daddy the way into this forum here, may be he is able to substantiate any of the stuff you couldn't.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 04:20:24 PM
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Damn, those are some heavy questions to answer and also so many at once. Not sure our candidate here will be capable of accomplishing this high task asked (purely judged from all his previous answers and comments done so far).
Funny, I was unsure if you were capable of counting sprites?
Have not exact clue of what you are trying here to tell me again, but I just had an other idea of why not showing your daddy the way into this forum here, may be he is able to substantiate any of the stuff you couldn't.
I can't seem to pierce your blind fanaticism but I have been attacked from every angle except straight on. Still clinging to the fact that beyond a shadow of a doubt the HU6280 is indeed faster per clock cycle than the MD68K. Any beliefs otherwise was mass propaganda started my Amiga fan bois. Fascists.... That 68K myth needs to die already.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 02, 2013, 04:25:27 PM
Evil. assume for a second that we all got you wrong and your not really trolling but defending your point. Please then take a second to answer a few honest questions. And if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me in a civil manner.
Is the thread about cpu vs cpu? or system vs system? If its cpu vs cpu, the sound and the video are irrelevent as the cpu produces neither. If its system vs system then they do matter as its about the core components that make up the machine. Did you not say yourself near the beggining of this thread that you felt as if people had you all wrong because it was cpu vs cpu and not about the systems? If so doesnt that make everyone's arguments, including yours, about sprites and backgrounds and sound channels etc irrelevant and off topic? So do we misunderstand you? or did you change your mind and this is really a system vs system rant and you forgot to tell anyone?
Damn, those are some heavy questions to answer and also so many at once. Not sure our candidate here will be capable of accomplishing this high task asked (purely judged from all his previous answers and comments done so far).
Funny, I was unsure if you were capable of counting sprites?
Have not exact clue of what you are trying here to tell me again, but I just had an other idea of why not showing your daddy the way into this forum here, may be he is able to substantiate any of the stuff you couldn't.
I can't seem to pierce your blind fanaticism but I have been attacked from every angle except straight on. Still clinging to the fact that beyond a shadow of a doubt the HU6280 is indeed faster per clock cycle than the MD68K. Any beliefs otherwise was mass propaganda started my Amiga fan bois. Fascists....
:-s
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: HercTNT on June 02, 2013, 04:29:05 PM
REGAL!!!!! is that you?! 8-[
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Vecanti on June 02, 2013, 04:38:51 PM
I can't seem to pierce your blind fanaticism but I have been attacked from every angle except straight on. Still clinging to the fact that beyond a shadow of a doubt the HU6280 is indeed faster per clock cycle than the MD68K. Any beliefs otherwise was mass propaganda started my Amiga fan bois. Fascists....
The original post:
Quote
Hi all, i have this in mind for a while ..
How 6280 can compete with Md 68k in performance ??? Of course in case of video game consoles, not in general use(like a computer) .
It seems that in bloc transfert ,the 68k is more capable (with more code of course) ..
Basically, how can they "compete in performance". It seemed like pretty straight forward question. There was nothing about graphics or games or fun.
Performance can be measured a lot ways. Bits and MHZ, as far as I know, is generally a very bad way to measure performance between two completely difference 'families' of CPUs. So you have to look at, well, that has been covered pretty well already in this thread.
Comparing the the graphics capabilities and colors of the video chips is not a way to measure performance of the CPU though as far as I am aware. Comparing peripherals such as CD add ons is not a way to measure CPU performance as far as I am aware. The fun of a game is not a good way to measure CPU performance as far as I am aware. Comparing how good one team ported graphics from an arcade cabinet game is not a good measure of CPU performance as far as I am aware. These are things that one might use to compare a complete system however, but that would be completely off topic to this thread, as far as I am aware.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 04:48:02 PM
The answer to the thread is the HU6280 is faster and can move more sprites than the MD68k.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: SignOfZeta on June 02, 2013, 04:57:47 PM
The answer to the thread is the HU6280 is faster and can move more sprites than the MD68k.
The answer to this thread is that you can go piss up a rope.
f*cking hell...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 02, 2013, 10:05:16 PM
Here's a great article from EGM Issue #8 from January 1990. Very nostalgic and very fun looking back at what was. If you are really interested the entire magazine has been uploaded on www.sega-16.com (http://www.sega-16.com/) and if you can sift through the MD68K propaganda it's a good read. They even go into detail and review JJ and Jeff seriously.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 02, 2013, 10:30:25 PM
ROLF!
Read through the first few lines and I instantly recognized that these boys back in 1990 had about as much knowledge of the systems (especially the TG16) as you have today :lol: Great reference :clap:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 02, 2013, 10:33:47 PM
The answer to the thread is the HU6280 is faster and can move more sprites than the MD68k.
You want something to be flat out better then something else when its not. You want people to believe what you believe concerning this. You made multiple statements confusing the task the cpu handled with what the VDP was actually handling until it was pointed out to you by myself and others. Most of your statements were biased and unfounded and flip flopped between the supposed power you bestowed upon the 68k lurking inside the Genesis (sinceyou had no idea what the VDP was and what it did) and the general trashing of the other system's cpu and its hardware, both audio and visuals, in general.
I have no doubt you believe everything you said, but in that respect I also have no doubt Jim Jones believed everything he said as he helped pour the kool aid. No matter how hard you believe in something, it doesn't make it right, and no amount of emulating Alien Soldier or Ranger X or ResQ on your computer will make it so. You seriously have issues with understanding things being equal in some ways, but differing in others and both being able to trade blows, due to that difference in design and approach. Imagine if you had been around back when the Jaguar was still being marketed. You could have been the go to guy for false advertising and overhype.
I cant believe I am having to play this out for you in such vivid detail, but f*ck it, here goes: system cpus: Genesis-M68k= really fast cpu PCE-Hu6280= really fast cpu system gpu: Genesis-Yamaha YM7101 Pixel resolution: 320 x 224 64 simultaneous colors of 512 color pallete 64 KBytes of dedicated VRAM (the nitty gritty=able to display 3 Planes: 2 scrolling playfields, 1 sprite plane Fast VDP with great background scrolling ability and decent sprite size and pretty good sprite count, but terrible color support on par with Sega Master System)
PCE- 16-bit HuC6260 + 16-bit HuC6270A Pixel resolution: variable 482 simultaneous colors of 512 color pallete 64 KBytes of dedicated VRAM HuC6270A able to display one 1 sprite layer. (the nitty gritty=capable of displaying one sprite layer and one background layer Fast VDC/VDE combo with great sprite count, capable of displaying very large colorful sprites at great speed at variable screen resolutions with a very vibrant color pallet available to be presented on screen all at once)
(klik link for larger version of image) http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/artoffightingcompare_zps5108579a.png
Per the above, this was the going trend between the two systems. You may not like it, but that is simply how it is. So how do you rate total absolute system power exactly? Video processor wise do you just think the Genesis/MD was more powerful simply due to being able to do capable background scrolling and having about Sound Blaster quality music on its best day? Do you consider that alone as having more power? See, I don't. I look at the over all picture. For me, being able to display larger sprites at a capable speed in more colors at different resolutions with less sacrifices to over all image quality, means more power visually, while also still providing a strong soundtrack and good sound fx. It represents to me a more powerful video processor and a more complete experience as a whole both audio and video wise. I don't care if you count the cd tech in or not, but if you do it just makes the PCE that much stronger in the audio department. Video wise the core components have been there since day one.
You have stated that the Pc-Engine feels borderline 8-bit, and yet, it proved time and time again that it handled ports of 16-BIT arcade titles including NEO-GEO, far better then the Mega Drive/Genesis ever did, let alone the Snes in many cases. This is both in play style and visually, along with audio in many cases due to the clearer voices compared to Genesis/MD (and in some cases Snes voices due to muffled tin can Snes crap). So, systems as a whole, with the Pc-Engine having so many better arcade ports in it's stable of top tier titles, in general, are you implying that most every arcade game from these systems generation feels borderline 8-BIT compared to the Genesis/MD?
By implying this, are you realizing you stated that the all powerful Genesis was not even up to snuff when it came to handling said borderline 8-BIT arcade games (your words, not mine, this is what happens when you state the system with the best arcade ports of the three 16-bit home systems feels borderline 8-BIT, it attaches the source material by proxy)? By proxy you are also stating that Neo-Geo cab you own also feels gasp! borderline 8-BIT. I mean, after all, the Pc-Engine did the best ports of Fatal Fury 2, Special, World Heroes 2, and Art of Fighting. Surely if it feels only borderline 8-BIT at best, then these games must feel like barely 16-bit on the NeoGeo then, and less then 8-Bit on the Genesis and Snes ports, possibly even Atari 2600 like to you. Its pretty funny how the things you say and imply come back to haunt you, no?
And I'm not even done yet. When you say "feels borderline 8-bit", do you also mean gameplay? The core gameplay has not changed much between Nes all the way to the Snes and Genesis. In the end you use mostly the directional pad, start button, and 2-3 buttons for actions in the gameplay. On the actual game play, the core dynamics, there is not much difference between Mega Man in his heyday on Nes and the gameplay of Alien Soldier. This is something I would have thought you'd have realized being such a supposed hard core gamer who haz all the romz owns all the games, but sadly the only thing that seems to differentiate 8-BIT and 16-BIT gameplay for you is a few scrolling backgrounds and a couple of semi large sprites (pays no mind the the obvious slowdown/flicker in said games and shitty voices).
Back to audio to address this in full detail. Even audio wise, the Genesis was capable in the audio department for the most part, but when it came to voices it sounded like a busted Pro Audio Spectrum on its best day and music wise like a Sound Blaster Pro on its best, and a normal Sound Blaster on its worst. However, while musically it usually brought it's best stuff to the table often, more often then not it failed terribly at digitized speech. This was the going trend with the Genesis/MD. And this is if you were lucky. Depending on what model of the system you got you may have gotten stuck with some really shitty sound quality.
The PC-Engine on the other hand usually always brought its best stuff to the table concerning voice quality, other then a few rare exceptions like Space Harrier (which is worlds better on PCE then Space Harrier II on MD). Music wise the system at times tended to sound like a suped up Nes to lower end arcade games hardware. Many great examples include games like Raiden, Aero Blasters, Soldier Blade, Ninja Spirit, Bonks Revenge, Bloody Wolf, Street Fighter II, Outrun, Gradius and Salamander. It also didnt suffer the "some models have terrible sound hardware" issue that plagued the Genesis (let alone the random video quality for Composite video that the Genesis had).
Each systems music capability really went off in different directions. There is not many times however where I came away feeling unsatisfied with the Pc-Engines audio quality (only on the absolute worst titles on the system did this happen), and this is coming from an arcade game fans perspective, not a home console fan. I have always been a arcade game fan and hardware enthusiast first and foremost. To put this in a little objectionable arcade fans perspective per system, concerning music quality:
Listen to the music during the following videos,
Life Force Nes:
Salamander PCE:
Salamander/Life Force arcade version music:
(You can easily tell that the Pc-Engine surpasses the Nes in music quality. And I mean, Lifeforce on Nes was no slouch in the music department for that system.)
(Of special audio note, it would be best to only focus on stage 1's music, as the musical score for stage 2 for the arcade is rather dingy and weak in most parts and the Genesis takes that aspect and makes it worse on that song as a whole. The song seems to have been ditched all together and a new one was created for the TG-16/PCE version on stage 2 that has a far stronger and more consistent sound throughout.)
(Of special visual note, the Pc-Engine version of Aero Blasters/Air Buster has reworked visuals for stage 1, which contains a new island city in the background and sort of different scrolling city in the foreground then what the arcade version presents. The Genesis version is missing the foreground scrolling for its city all together compared to the arcade, which means it couldn't keep up with its borderline 8-bit arcade brethren.)
Basically goes to show you that the Pc-Engine was capable at presenting a fairly nice composition compared to the arcade in many cases. It really depended on what the composer was going for as a whole. You can get shit sounding music out of both the PCE and MD hardware, and great sounding music also, even compared to the arcade. It's all about playing the strengths of the hardware. So, does all this music sound borderline 8-BIT to you?
In the end, if you want to go about presenting the merits of one game system over the other, especially on a thread that originally was meant to focus specifically on the cpus ability, then you damn well better bring a decent argument to the table to represent your side of things, like what I just did above. As of now, you have done no such thing. All you did was spout a bunch of nonsensical bullshit like how your pops was a programmer so you should know. Your dads experience means nothing. Did he program for game companies developing for the Genesis and Pc-Engine/TG-16? No, he did not (if you state he did, you damn well better be able to provide valid proof/multiple work references for him). Its what you bring to the table that matters, and you have no programming experience as of now, unlike many who have posted here that you chose to ignore.
Other nonsense you presented was things like your supposed "facts" like "ResQ cant be done on PCE because Stone Cold said so" and tout the greatness of Alien Soldier. Like anyone even gives a flying f*ck about a game starring what apparently would be the character you would get if Mega Man, Robocop, and Toucan Sam raped a robin and it bore a bastard cyberbird, that also happens to be riddled with slowdown and rendered in basically the colors red, brown, and grey and lame ass bosses that more often then not rip off Cosmic Carnage/Cyber Brawl. And last but not least you defined power as being able to render 6 polygons on screen at what seems to be less then 15fps, and the ability to scroll a couple backgrounds. In other words, you are easily influenced by razzle dazzle. Hey, no problem, so were my kids, back when they were like 8 or 9 or something.
In the end, you provided no solid evidence to back up your claims, just empty words, false statements/hyperbole, and totally merit-less examples, and you often confused the work/end results of the VDP of the Genesis with the M68000 which made it even more laughable. You wholly expect everyone to just eat up your fictitious hyperbole claims, and yet you wonder why these said claims keep getting curb stomped no matter what forum you present them to. I am all but surprised that you didn't claim Blast Processing was real at this point. At this time, I would politely ask you to just shut the f*ck up concerning this thread. Go back to doing unboxing videos and blowing in av cables din plugs or something. YOU are not needed here.
Also, though I don't exactly think this was your goal (god I'd hope not), please don't cite old ass magazines from 1990 for specs by example for anything other then pure joking. They posted a lot of totally inaccurate system info half the time, or left out system capabilities completely, like in the pages you posted, EGM leaving out of the Turbografx 16 resolution capabilities or them neglecting to state the Genesis only did 64 colors out of that 512, let alone them stating the TG16 cpu was the exact same in the Nes. Fact checking was not the rule of the day at EGM, let alone at GameFan or elsewhere.
(PS: Vestcoat warned you. And also, I'd never go by a guy who blows into av cables and sez he haz all teh gamez/rom master totally on his word alone concerning any kind of tech post without some real valid proof. Now....... blow.)
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.
only lol,lol,and lol ..
A little demo, with only about 5% of CPU load :
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 02, 2013, 11:50:47 PM
Lol touko :clap:
And were are the sprite flickers? :)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on June 03, 2013, 12:50:23 AM
The Md sprites/line limit is better in H40 (320 pix), and it can push more sprites/line if sprites are 8 pixels wide ..
But the PCE limitation is not the fact of CPU, 6280 is capable of handling more sprites, an exemple, SGX version of 1941 .. There are lot of sprites on screen, and background tiles animations, and all without a good DMA .
My demo is not incredible at all, all PCE devs can do that easily,and to be serious, 5% is pessimistic ..
@EVO: It's not our fault if SEGA put a big 16 bit on the front to convince consumers that their console was not an improved SMS. Yes i know, on screen is very difficult to see the difference :wink:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 02:51:52 AM
Well come on now.... The Genesis was 16-Bit, that's like, 8 more bits.
Quote from: ProfessorProfessorson
You want something to be flat out better then something else when its not. You want people to believe what you believe concerning this.
You see that’s just it, you can’t see the forest for the trees. In the West it was better. Everybody and their mother pointed out the “8-bittedness” of a lot of the games. Now of course that means nothing technically but here in the West a LOT of the games just stunk. Here in the states the MD eventually unseated Nintendo and was number one, it was number one in the UK by a larger margin. Almost nothing took advantage of the HU6280 here in the states and the best games were mail order. I have them now, I play them now, they didn’t compare to what was available in the West at the time, the majority I am speaking of.
Now for the Japanese market the system ruled and towards the end of the systems life it had comparable games and like you said Arcade games. Those CD ROM games added a lot of frames of animation that could not be fit on a cart and like many people said the CD rom was in the cards for the PCE since day one and it shows. I am hammering through a lot of these games and ordering more. Do you want me to post all the vids of the bad games I mean it's a shame they even call them Super CD Rom games when there is nothing super about them.
You could blame 3rd party or 1st party support, economics, the times, the wind, but the system had trouble delivering. Now this site and this site only seems to have a series of cascading excuses a kin to a mother making excuses for her child and for every group of "programmers" on this site that say once thing I can get just as many from another forum that says another.
I will agree that there is no definitive answer and most of the answers we find are really just based in sales and market predictions from the day (as I posted).
What I still don't like from my gaming experience on the Turbo/PCE?
1. Every time there is a fire ball on screen in street fighter 2, at least in my copy, there is slow down. 2. I don't like the sound FX on the PCE in comparison. Every video above that you posted to show me great sounf FX has me just confused. I can't tell if you are joking or not. I mean they are fun and all but those blits and bloobs are hardly next gen.
3.How everybody and their mother cranks it to Sapphire but it is just on par. Great game to play but not the visual orgy everyone rants and raves about. I played through it and gave it a thumbs up, what more do you want a standing ovation and me crying? 4.Have you played AOF on the PCE Arcade? Not exactly a great arcade conversion. I have the arcade and the game, a lot is missing and a LOT of animation is missing. The sound FX were bad as well. Yes, I get it, a CD holds a lot more than a cart, more animation of a CD I get it.
Quote from: ProfessorProfessorson
(PS: Vestcoat warned you. And also, I'd never go by a guy who blows into av cables and sez he haz all teh gamez/rom master totally on his word alone concerning any kind of tech post without some real valid proof. Now....... blow.)
That thing had a giant piece of dust on it. I guess my Go Prop didn't get it. A/V cables worked fine but I still need RGB, S-video is not good enough. Still have all the games. I suggest you play some more MD games and really see what the system can do.
You guys keep asking about my father so I'll let you know.
He did programing for the defense dept (mostly the army) in development of weapons and defense technology. Back in the 80's it was a switch activated by the eye for helicopter pilots as their hand and feet were busy at most times. But more recently stuff like an RPG grenade that when fired over a wall at the enemy it communicates with a satellite in real time so when the enemy is ducking behind a wall and can't be reached directly, the grenade is fired over and when the satellite sees it's directly over head the enemy it explodes.
Today it is a lot of IOS stuff, meaning language translation in real time. Holding up an I-Phone to a foreign sign and it re arranges it into English. Also working on a device that has long distance facial recognition in the field. Lots a stuff far more important then shit we are babbling about.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Opethian on June 03, 2013, 03:13:36 AM
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 03:20:40 AM
The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.
only lol,lol,and lol ..
A little demo, with only about 5% of CPU load : http://youtu.be/_9ai_Jk3Gzs
Oh yeah I remember playing that game back in 1993, epic. Just as visually stunning as Vector Man ;) The animation of that mech walking and shooting brought me to tears, serious guys, serious.
@EVO: It's not our fault if SEGA put a big 16 bit on the front to convince consumers that their console was not an improved SMS. Yes i know, on screen is very difficult to see the difference :wink:
Dude.....It's 16 FREAKING BITS!!!!! PLUS IT HAS HIGH DEFINITION GRAFX!!!
Also that magazine I posted said the PCE was around in 1986? November of 1986? If so that is very impressive.
Also does anyone take into the account that most consoles were short sited in that they were made to attack what was available. Obviously the PCE was aimed at the NES and murdered it. The MD at the PCE especially with CD technology and then the SNES against the MD. The Jaguar did the 64 Bit thing and had a technical giant in a 16Bit age far too late and so on.
Or I more of think of this as my theme music.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 03, 2013, 03:40:50 AM
You are a real pain in the ass clown troll, ain't you?
Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 03:46:23 AM
You guys keep asking about my father so I'll let you know.
He did programing for the defense dept (mostly the army) in development of weapons and defense technology. Back in the 80's it was a switch activated by the eye for helicopter pilots as their hand and feet were busy at most times. But more recently stuff like an RPG grenade that when fired over a wall at the enemy it communicates with a satellite in real time so when the enemy is ducking behind a wall and can be reached, the grenade is fired over and when the satellite sees it's directly over head the enemy it explodes.
Today it is a lot of IOS stuff, meaning language translation in real time. Holding up an Iphone to a foreign sign and it re arranges it into English. Also working on a device that has long distance facial recognition in the field. Lots a stuff far more important then shit we are babbling about.
Yeah, your dad's (if it's even true) evil killer war apps sure are way far more important than our obey talk here. behind what shitty moon do you live?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: nodtveidt on June 03, 2013, 03:52:19 AM
I don't doubt what EvilEvoIX says about his father. It sounds like pretty standard software engineering. I've coded for the DOD before. What he's saying is more than likely legit. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that he himself knows dick about the subject matter here.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: soop on June 03, 2013, 03:57:40 AM
You guys keep asking about my father so I'll let you know.
He did programing for the defense dept (mostly the army) in development of weapons and defense technology. Back in the 80's it was a switch activated by the eye for helicopter pilots as their hand and feet were busy at most times. But more recently stuff like an RPG grenade that when fired over a wall at the enemy it communicates with a satellite in real time so when the enemy is ducking behind a wall and can be reached, the grenade is fired over and when the satellite sees it's directly over head the enemy it explodes.
Today it is a lot of IOS stuff, meaning language translation in real time. Holding up an Iphone to a foreign sign and it re arranges it into English. Also working on a device that has long distance facial recognition in the field. Lots a stuff far more important then shit we are babbling about.
Yeah, your dad's (if it's even true) evil killer war apps sure are way far more important than our obey talk here. behind what shitty moon do you live?
It's defense. The name of the Company is CACI. Look it up.
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that he himself knows dick about the subject matter here.
Yeah, in the real world. However in his world, it's proof.
In the real world the Turbo Got trounced by Sega and it's only shot of relevance is on sites like these by fan bois (myself included). I mean seriously I'm all for revisionist history in the name of fun but even civil war rein-actors eventually take their suits off and go home. Enjoy your games.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 03, 2013, 04:59:11 AM
The Sega trounced the Turbo how?
are we talking strictly USA? If so, who cares. The SNES fisted both of them. Doesn't mean it's better
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 05:03:56 AM
are we talking strictly USA? If so, who cares. The SNES fisted both of them. Doesn't mean it's better
USA and UK. Sega eventually cost and beat the SNES in sales but then the 32X debacle and then the Saturn which Sega obviously did not recover from. But for a short glorious time Sega was #1 in the USA, unseating Nintendo was massively impressive. But there were so many versions of the Mega drive it was shoe horned into a lot of homes via Genesis 1,2,3 - Megadrive 1,2 - Nomad - Genesis and Megadrive laseractive adaptors - Wondermega - Multimega - JVC Xeye - Sega CDX . The SNES however was relevant till 1999. That system had staying power and over all won in sales overall.
Back to the PCE, released November 1986? Is that true?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 03, 2013, 05:07:35 AM
no. you could answer that yourself if you knew how to use a search engine.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 05:09:30 AM
You see that’s just it, you can’t see the forest for the trees. In the West it was better. Everybody and their mother pointed out the “8-bittedness” of a lot of the games. Now of course that means nothing technically but here in the West a LOT of the games just stunk. Here in the states the MD eventually unseated Nintendo and was number one, it was number one in the UK by a larger margin. Almost nothing took advantage of the HU6280 here in the states and the best games were mail order. I have them now, I play them now, they didn’t compare to what was available in the West at the time, the majority I am speaking of.
If that was truly the case, I would only judge the system, any system, by the native North American library. I am a open minded gamer. I play imports and have tried to play about anything worth playing on most systems other then PS1. I also don't consider the NA release list for TG to just totally suck and the best games were not simply by mail order. I don't think you even had a Turbografx back in the day. You definitely don't sound like you did.
There was plenty of shooters and action games in there to make the library legitimately fun. Outside of the few games actually developed by North American developers, most were games like Raiden, Aero Blasters, Bloody Wolf, Alien/Devils Crush, Cadash, Bonks Revenge, Splatterhouse, Ninja Spirit, Parasol Stars, Air Zonk, Bomber Man 93, Chase HQ, Galaga 90, Super Star soldier, Soldier Blade, Jackie Chan's Action Kung Fu, New Adventure Island, R-Type, etc. Thats not even covering cd game releases here in the US. Just because you decided to jump in during 2013 doesn't mean the rest of us missed out on either the US or Japanese side of things.
So again, tell me this, in the list above, do most of these titles feel "borderline 8-BIT" to you? Because again, most that are arcade ports retain the look and feel of the arcade original, which was 16-BIT. and then you always have games like Raiden and Bomberman 93, both of which completely suck ass visually on the Genesis.
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Now for the Japanese market the system ruled and towards the end of the systems life it had comparable games and like you said Arcade games. Those CD ROM games added a lot of frames of animation that could not be fit on a cart and like many people said the CD rom was in the cards for the PCE since day one and it shows. I am hammering through a lot of these games and ordering more. Do you want me to post all the vids of the bad games I mean it's a shame they even call them Super CD Rom games when there is nothing super about them.
No doubt, the Japanese market did rule, which is why I have been open to importing for years, even for systems like the Neo-Geo or 3DO. Concerning Japanese PCE library, yes, it had a large cache of arcade ports, and yes, most of them were very good to excellent. Most all were better then their Mega Drive/Genesis counterparts. "Comparable" is hardly the word to describe it. Concerning you posting more videos, I think not. I could really care less as far as what you think is a good game versus a bad one. At best all you could do is hope to amuse me by blowing spit on a few games or something like you did the av cable.
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You could blame 3rd party or 1st party support, economics, the times, the wind, but the system had trouble delivering. Now this site and this site only seems to have a series of cascading excuses a kin to a mother making excuses for her child and for every group of "programmers" on this site that say once thing I can get just as many from another forum that says another.
Other then whatever it is you are rambling on about in the first sentence, concerning most of the second, and think it has been confirmed you tried preaching elsewhere and were shot down. It's your destiny to fail. You are just repeating a cycle of events here as you build up some solid ignores along the way.
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I will agree that there is no definitive answer and most of the answers we find are really just based in sales and market predictions from the day (as I posted).
The answers you found are based on hype and old magazines and a few fanboi based opinions. I decided to settle on proof of solid engineering via playable examples presented to me in the form of games.
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What I still don't like from my gaming experience on the Turbo/PCE?
What makes you think we care. No one here considers you a legitimate gamer anymore.
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1. Every time there is a fire ball on screen in street fighter 2, at least in my copy, there is slow down.
You're imagining things. Stop being retarded.
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2. I don't like the sound FX on the PCE in comparison. Every video above that you posted to show me great sounf FX has me just confused. I can't tell if you are joking or not. I mean they are fun and all but those blits and bloobs are hardly next gen.
For one, I really don't care if you like the PCE sound or not. Its subjective to say the least. Two, every video I linked to was to give you a music example, not a sound fx one. Three, the sound fx in the videos for the Genesis versions were not any better. You are clearly hearing what you want to hear and seeing what you want to see, and again, no one takes your opinion seriously anymore.
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3.How everybody and their mother cranks it to Sapphire but it is just on par. Great game to play but not the visual orgy everyone rants and raves about. I played through it and gave it a thumbs up, what more do you want a standing ovation and me crying?
Not once have I brought up Sapphire to make my case in point. As stated, I don't believe in razzle dazzle, and to me Sapphire is a C+ game at best. Its a visual showcase at best, and personally I could care less for its art style. I will take Gradius II on PCE any day of the week over Sapphire.
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4.Have you played AOF on the PCE Arcade? Not exactly a great arcade conversion. I have the arcade and the game, a lot is missing and a LOT of animation is missing. The sound FX were bad as well. Yes, I get it, a CD holds a lot more than a cart, more animation of a CD I get it.
I have owned and played every release of Art of Fighting released to market, including the Neo CD, MVS, and AES releases. I am a bit of a AOF nut who will staunchly defend the game against all AOF haters who hate its complicated attack system (throw attack doubling as strong attacks and also being held and used in conjunction with normal punch and kick for low blows etc) or its difficulty. This is how I noticed things like the background scrolling layer in the Genesis port and how it is absent from the Neo.
Concerning the animation on the PCE, no, it is not 100 percent perfect, but it is hands down the best version available outside of the NeoGeo and PS2 anthology, and it is also mostly intact, even to the extent that it presents the forward and back walking animations and things like the animated street signs in the background in the bar. There is honestly not that much character animation missing. It is very minute. And regardless of ram storage, the other version, Mega Drive and Snes, dont play too hot. This is espically true of the Genesis/MD port. Try playing it. It plays like a joke and it is even actually missing entire moves/attacks that even the Snes version retained.
If you think otherwise, again, you are imagining things. But again, this goes without saying. You're the fool that stated that the PCE felt "borderline 8-bit", the same system with tons of arcade ports with quality so high they proved its visual superiority over the Genesis/MD VDP. You lost all credibility with me concerning arcade ports when you stated that "borderline 8-bit" bullshit. Now all I consider you to be is a late coming poser youtube upstart begging for video views (we call this attention whoring, so you go girl :wink: ).
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That thing had a giant piece of dust on it. I guess my Go Prop didn't get it.
Uhh huh, yeah, its really hard to get giant imaginary dust balls on video. It did however have no problem capturing you blowing your spittle into the din plug, both on audio and video.
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A/V cables worked fine but I still need RGB, S-video is not good enough. Still have all the games.
Of course the AV cable worked fine. And it wasn't dusty. Its a bit hard/impossible to get large balls of dust in the din when it spent the majority of its life being plugged directly into the system, or in a zip baggie, or wrapped in bubble wrap during transport. As with all things, I tested it before I shipped the system out and recorded a video of it running multiple games just in case you decided to break the thing on arrive (Glad I did. You manhandled the thing like a idiot in your video. I can only imagine how you treat it off camera...)
(take a good look, I bet this a$$hole will kill the thing in a year, two years max, and I will laugh when no one here volunteers to fix it for him)
Concerning the games you still have, who cares? S-video not good enough? Again, who cares? I wonder how many people here will be willing to restore the RGB out for you after you exposed yourself so stupidly on this thread? Maybe you can have your pops to it for you in-between programming spy satellites. Hope he can replace your laser too after you kill it on your Taiwanese junk short strategy warez you burned off.
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I suggest you play some more MD games and really see what the system can do.
This is a pretty idiotic statement coming from you considering I'm one of the few to finalize the S-video mod for the Genesis 1 and X-Eye, let alone figure out the region mod on the Majesco Model 2. :roll:
Yeah, that was me, so you can f*ck off Mr. I've done nothing but spent my time collecting mah romz&iso and being a f*cking no nuthin poser on teh forums. I have plenty of experience with the Genesis and Mega Drive library. That has been made a abundantly clear over the years Mr. Borderline Poser Gamer Personality Disorder.
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You guys keep asking about my father so I'll let you know.
No, we didn't. Not really at all, but hey, waste more of your own time talking about pops. :roll:
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more rambling and other made up shit to make pops sound important, cause I really think someone here cares
No one cares. Really.
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Back to the PCE, released November 1986? Is that true?
You got google. f*cking use it poser.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 03, 2013, 05:31:27 AM
Oh yeah I remember playing that game back in 1993, epic. Just as visually stunning as Vector Man ;) The animation of that mech walking and shooting brought me to tears, serious guys, serious.
Eh dude, it's juste a demo, to show you that animate big sprites is not a problem. And as you can see, there are some parallaxes too,and all with less than 5% of CPU load ...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 03, 2013, 05:47:22 AM
Oh yeah I remember playing that game back in 1993, epic. Just as visually stunning as Vector Man ;) The animation of that mech walking and shooting brought me to tears, serious guys, serious.
Eh dude, it's juste a demo, to show you that animate big sprites is not a problem. And as you can see, there are some parallaxes too,and all with less than 5% of CPU load ...
Evo didn't actually understand what he saw there. He didn't have his pops there to explain it for him. Dad was too busy playing wargames with super computer Joshua.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 03, 2013, 06:13:05 AM
Even at the age of what, like 5, I could tell the Turbo was legit. There's nothing like Silent Debuggers on SNES or Genesis. I would also take China Warrior over Altered Beast any day. Bigger sprites, faster action, cooler boss battles. I mean you get to kick some fan dancing bitch in the baby-blaster! Also you get to beat Bruce Lee to death with a fist the size of a car.
Altered Beast is clunky and mostly just looks cool and has a neat story/design to it. It's a pretty crappy game. Walk slowly, kick mutant blue dog wolves in the face, grab a ton of balls, rip your clothes off, fight some retard monster that requires 0 skill, repeat.
I mean, you can kill the eye blob thing in level 2, and the snail thing in level 3 before they even move. And then the first boss, you'd have to be a complete moron to die to that one.
Sega Genesis is also pretty bad for shooters. All of the shooters perform a lot of eye-candy shenanigans, but the gameplay in them is all pretty stale. I like Silpheed for Sega CD. Phelios and Wings of Wor are admirable efforts, and fun to play, but pretty crappy in comparison to just about anything. Gaiares has cracked out balance, eye candy, and ... boringness.
You play Sega Genesis for games like Maximum Carnage, Alisia Dragoon, and Castle of Illusion.
also, on the topic of Sapphire, if it didn't have the theme that it has, I wouldn't give two flying dicks about that game. The sprites and art are pretty cool, but it's just a vertical shooter. Nothing over the top. I like the chicks and the levels.
and the power metal.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 06:23:06 AM
You see that’s just it, you can’t see the forest for the trees. In the West it was better. Everybody and their mother pointed out the “8-bittedness” of a lot of the games. Now of course that means nothing technically but here in the West a LOT of the games just stunk. Here in the states the MD eventually unseated Nintendo and was number one, it was number one in the UK by a larger margin. Almost nothing took advantage of the HU6280 here in the states and the best games were mail order. I have them now, I play them now, they didn’t compare to what was available in the West at the time, the majority I am speaking of.
If that was truly the case, I would only judge the system, any system, by the native North American library. I am a open minded gamer. I play imports and have tried to play about anything worth playing on most systems other then PS1. I also don't consider the NA release list for TG to just totally suck and the best games were not simply by mail order. I don't think you even had a Turbografx back in the day. You definitely don't sound like you did.
There was plenty of shooters and action games in there to make the library legitimately fun. Outside of the few games actually developed by North American developers, most were games like Raiden, Aero Blasters, Bloody Wolf, Alien/Devils Crush, Cadash, Bonks Revenge, Splatterhouse, Ninja Spirit, Parasol Stars, Air Zonk, Bomber Man 93, Chase HQ, Galaga 90, Super Star soldier, Soldier Blade, Jackie Chan's Action Kung Fu, New Adventure Island, R-Type, etc. Thats not even covering cd game releases here in the US. Just because you decided to jump in during 2013 doesn't mean the rest of us missed out on either the US or Japanese side of things.
So again, tell me this, in the list above, do most of these titles feel "borderline 8-BIT" to you? Because again, most that are arcade ports retain the look and feel of the arcade original, which was 16-BIT. and then you always have games like Raiden and Bomberman 93, both of which completely suck ass visually on the Genesis.
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Now for the Japanese market the system ruled and towards the end of the systems life it had comparable games and like you said Arcade games. Those CD ROM games added a lot of frames of animation that could not be fit on a cart and like many people said the CD rom was in the cards for the PCE since day one and it shows. I am hammering through a lot of these games and ordering more. Do you want me to post all the vids of the bad games I mean it's a shame they even call them Super CD Rom games when there is nothing super about them.
No doubt, the Japanese market did rule, which is why I have been open to importing for years, even for systems like the Neo-Geo or 3DO. Concerning Japanese PCE library, yes, it had a large cache of arcade ports, and yes, most of them were very good to excellent. Most all were better then their Mega Drive/Genesis counterparts. "Comparable" is hardly the word to describe it. Concerning you posting more videos, I think not. I could really care less as far as what you think is a good game versus a bad one. At best all you could do is hope to amuse me by blowing spit on a few games or something like you did the av cable.
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You could blame 3rd party or 1st party support, economics, the times, the wind, but the system had trouble delivering. Now this site and this site only seems to have a series of cascading excuses a kin to a mother making excuses for her child and for every group of "programmers" on this site that say once thing I can get just as many from another forum that says another.
Other then whatever it is you are rambling on about in the first sentence, concerning most of the second, and think it has been confirmed you tried preaching elsewhere and were shot down. It's your destiny to fail. You are just repeating a cycle of events here as you build up some solid ignores along the way.
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I will agree that there is no definitive answer and most of the answers we find are really just based in sales and market predictions from the day (as I posted).
The answers you found are based on hype and old magazines and a few fanboi based opinions. I decided to settle on proof of solid engineering via playable examples presented to me in the form of games.
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What I still don't like from my gaming experience on the Turbo/PCE?
What makes you think we care. No one here considers you a legitimate gamer anymore.
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1. Every time there is a fire ball on screen in street fighter 2, at least in my copy, there is slow down.
You're imagining things. Stop being retarded.
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2. I don't like the sound FX on the PCE in comparison. Every video above that you posted to show me great sounf FX has me just confused. I can't tell if you are joking or not. I mean they are fun and all but those blits and bloobs are hardly next gen.
For one, I really don't care if you like the PCE sound or not. Its subjective to say the least. Two, every video I linked to was to give you a music example, not a sound fx one. Three, the sound fx in the videos for the Genesis versions were not any better. You are clearly hearing what you want to hear and seeing what you want to see, and again, no one takes your opinion seriously anymore.
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3.How everybody and their mother cranks it to Sapphire but it is just on par. Great game to play but not the visual orgy everyone rants and raves about. I played through it and gave it a thumbs up, what more do you want a standing ovation and me crying?
Not once have I brought up Sapphire to make my case in point. As stated, I don't believe in razzle dazzle, and to me Sapphire is a C+ game at best. Its a visual showcase at best, and personally I could care less for its art style. I will take Gradius II on PCE any day of the week over Sapphire.
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4.Have you played AOF on the PCE Arcade? Not exactly a great arcade conversion. I have the arcade and the game, a lot is missing and a LOT of animation is missing. The sound FX were bad as well. Yes, I get it, a CD holds a lot more than a cart, more animation of a CD I get it.
I have owned and played every release of Art of Fighting released to market, including the Neo CD, MVS, and AES releases. I am a bit of a AOF nut who will staunchly defend the game against all AOF haters who hate its complicated attack system (throw attack doubling as strong attacks and also being held and used in conjunction with normal punch and kick for low blows etc) or its difficulty. This is how I noticed things like the background scrolling layer in the Genesis port and how it is absent from the Neo.
Concerning the animation on the PCE, no, it is not 100 percent perfect, but it is hands down the best version available outside of the NeoGeo and PS2 anthology, and it is also mostly intact, even to the extent that it presents the forward and back walking animations and things like the animated street signs in the background in the bar. There is honestly not that much character animation missing. It is very minute. And regardless of ram storage, the other version, Mega Drive and Snes, dont play too hot. This is espically true of the Genesis/MD port. Try playing it. It plays like a joke and it is even actually missing entire moves/attacks that even the Snes version retained.
If you think otherwise, again, you are imagining things. But again, this goes without saying. You're the fool that stated that the PCE felt "borderline 8-bit", the same system with tons of arcade ports with quality so high they proved its visual superiority over the Genesis/MD VDP. You lost all credibility with me concerning arcade ports when you stated that "borderline 8-bit" bullshit. Now all I consider you to be is a late coming poser youtube upstart begging for video views (we call this attention whoring, so you go girl :wink: ).
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That thing had a giant piece of dust on it. I guess my Go Prop didn't get it.
Uhh huh, yeah, its really hard to get giant imaginary dust balls on video. It did however have no problem capturing you blowing your spittle into the din plug, both on audio and video.
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A/V cables worked fine but I still need RGB, S-video is not good enough. Still have all the games.
Of course the AV cable worked fine. And it wasn't dusty. Its a bit hard/impossible to get large balls of dust in the din when it spent the majority of its life being plugged directly into the system, or in a zip baggie, or wrapped in bubble wrap during transport. As with all things, I tested it before I shipped the system out and recorded a video of it running multiple games just in case you decided to break the thing on arrive (Glad I did. You manhandled the thing like a idiot in your video. I can only imagine how you treat it off camera...)
(take a good look, I bet this a$$hole will kill the thing in a year, two years max, and I will laugh when no one here volunteers to fix it for him)
Concerning the games you still have, who cares? S-video not good enough? Again, who cares? I wonder how many people here will be willing to restore the RGB out for you after you exposed yourself so stupidly on this thread? Maybe you can have your pops to it for you in-between programming spy satellites. Hope he can replace your laser too after you kill it on your Taiwanese junk short strategy warez you burned off.
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I suggest you play some more MD games and really see what the system can do.
This is a pretty idiotic statement coming from you considering I'm one of the few to finalize the S-video mod for the Genesis 1 and X-Eye, let alone figure out the region mod on the Majesco Model 2. :roll:
Yeah, that was me, so you can f*ck off Mr. I've done nothing but spent my time collecting mah romz&iso and being a f*cking no nuthin poser on teh forums. I have plenty of experience with the Genesis and Mega Drive library. That has been made a abundantly clear over the years Mr. Borderline Poser Gamer Personality Disorder.
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You guys keep asking about my father so I'll let you know.
No, we didn't. Not really at all, but hey, waste more of your own time talking about pops. :roll:
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more rambling and other made up shit to make pops sound important, cause I really think someone here cares
No one cares. Really.
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Back to the PCE, released November 1986? Is that true?
You got google. f*cking use it poser.
It’s nice to have a Neo fan and especially a fan as deep and as good as AOF. I agree whole heatedly that the PCE Arcade version is the best on the 16 Bit versions. It obviously had the most development for it and it shows. I can’t really play it however I just pop my cart in my AES and have at it. I like the CD version as well but never got used to loading times.
The Turbo got a bad hand in the U.S. ….”It’s only 8-bit…where are the games???.....The games don’t look as good…..”
Is this true? Did it stop me from buying one? No, in fact I took all my birthday money and got a Turbo Express and a handful of games back in the day, and if it wasn’t stolen from me I’m sure I’d still have it today. I later got a TG16 at a garage sale for $20 with a stack of common games and that was my turbo collection until tezzz romzz11 ZOMG!!!. Now I got a duo and a burner (Thank you so much!!) and although I try not to use burned games to save my laser as you politely asked me(Play it on my puter and an XBOX controller) I still knock out Dracula X on my big CRT, I just have too; sorry. Great game, great fun. So while I was not on the turbo scene day one back in 1989, I got there around 1992 along with my Genny and then my computer stuffs.
Borderline 8-Bit, oh you mean like JJ & Jeff, or Dragon Spirit? Yeah that didn't damage the Turbo market at all. Those games lacked anything visually stunning. I didn’t stop playing them however and they still entertained me. But you have to agree those style of games in the U.S did a LOT of damage. Keith Courage too at least Sega made a quality arcade translation right off the bat that looked next gen at the time. There was even a decent port of Bonk on the NES that was reasonable. You really couldn't take a MD or SNES game, at least their main mascots and move it back a generation without serious cuts. The MD really took that next big step and left people confused about the TG16 here in the West, the games were just done poorly and it killed it here. AGAIN THE WEST ONLY.
I don’t get why blowing a dust bunny off of an A/V cable has anything to do with the comparison between the MD CPU and the PCE CPU. Have you seen my floor? It's a mess or carts and cds and I prolly need to vacuum my game room. Sorry, some dust on there from the floor as I plug in my other S-video systems.... and MAN HANDLE IT, what am I supposed to make love to it, it's not a woman it's a console. It's mot like I juggled it, it's just a light plastic machine, It sites on the floor surrounded by a mess of games with the cables un hooked until I play it. Right now my Dream cast is hooked up, taking notes? am I in the non poseur gamer club yet? I may even leave the CD Tray open...... OHHHHHHH, how dare it. This is an issue of yours, not mine. So let’s pretend to stay on topic.
Destiny to fail, at what? I am not making any fans here. I am not opening any eyes here. This is a cult like phenomenon. If I go to the MD they shit all over the PCE and SNES. If I go to the SNES forums they say that the PCE can’t smell their shit. Programmers and know-it-alls there too. Does it make you or them right? No. If the question is asked which CPU is better and I stated that the MD is for being a faster chip and moving more diverse sprites, and 14 pages later the N-Bomb is dropped, maybe a look in a mirror is in order. Every short fall I point out is bashed, ignored, or piled on by a wall of excuses. I've agreed with every short fall the MD has, what gives? I pointed out specific issues in games and just because my ideas are not popular I am shit upon. I know who I am, I am not some internet nerd hiding behind a wall of anonymous text you know who I am and where I am coming from. I thought the internet forums have moved on from trying to “POWNED” people or whatever kids are doing these days but the angst remains. What am I to lose here, really?
SFII on the PCE has a TON of slowdown. Not my imagination. I am RYU, I am fighting Ken, things start off good, Fire ball and the shit slows down, god forbid he throws one back at me then things get very slow. I am sure there are a world of excuses for this too but I am tired of excuses.
WTF is a gamer poseur? I am sorry is there a league of gamers I need to register with and get an ID number? For f*cks sakes you are taking this too seriously. If you took an ounce of your angst and passion and focused it on your real life maybe you spend more time in the real life instead of losing you cool, calling me names, and taking offense and then bragging that you are on some ground breaking floor of some S-Video JVCXY experiment and how dare I is embarrassing. Model 1 Sega Genesis, Scart lead, took two f*cking seconds. It’s getting embarrassing the level you are taking this. Get outside a bit. Oh and yes S-Video not good enough, RGB only. I will be sending it out shortly to have it RGB modded, can't wait. Plenty of people to help out and take my moeny if I ask them but the S-Video out on my CRT is good, not good enough. Only poseurs use S-Video, didn’t you get the memo from whatever classic game group of “Non Game Poseurs Extraordinaire” you belong to. [-(
Now back to my ROMS……
P.S. Thanks again for the system, I enjoy it very much and ordered a bunch more games. Great deal, a steal really and yes I appreciate it and it was the best packing job I ever got.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 06:23:40 AM
Oh yeah I remember playing that game back in 1993, epic. Just as visually stunning as Vector Man ;) The animation of that mech walking and shooting brought me to tears, serious guys, serious.
Eh dude, it's juste a demo, to show you that animate big sprites is not a problem. And as you can see, there are some parallaxes too,and all with less than 5% of CPU load ...
Evo didn't actually understand what he saw there. He didn't have his pops there to explain it for him. Dad was too busy playing wargames with super computer Joshua.
I saw all those colors and got scared. I only like many shades of brown.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 03, 2013, 06:34:10 AM
Can you please learn how to use quote tags on here. You've actually posted more of other people's posts than your own.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 03, 2013, 06:59:22 AM
Just a Genesis hype riding poser. No one cares anymore about your rehashed marketing war or your other bullshit you made up on the fly. No one here is going to consider you a legit gamer in the know, regardless of what bullshit you fill your game room with on camera. You're on the same level as those late comer posers on that lame Game Chasers youtube show. f*cking worthless. You cant even be bothered to google when the PCE was released. Get lost already.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 07:01:44 AM
Just a Genesis hype riding poser. No one cares anymore about your rehashed marketing war or your other bullshit you made up on the fly. No one here is going to consider you a legit gamer in the know, regardless of what bullshit you fill your game room with on camera. You're on the same level as those late comer posers on that lame Game Chasers youtube show. f*cking worthless. You cant even be bothered to google when the PCE was released. Get lost already.
So, we're cool now?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 03, 2013, 07:11:12 AM
Still at least he was polite about the system. Like I said before, the guy himself seems ok, but the trashing of this thread is ridiculous.
Exactly, once the N-Bomb was dropped all bets were off. These threads always end like this. I'll be playing my PCE after work to finish up Red Alert, life goes on. This isn't a war.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 03, 2013, 07:56:37 AM
Exactly, once the N-Bomb was dropped all bets were off. These threads always end like this. I'll be playing my PCE after work to finish up Red Alert, life goes on. This isn't a war.
(http://i.qkme.me/3swetp.jpg)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on June 03, 2013, 08:02:43 AM
you do not understand ? this isn't just because you say that 68k is better, your opinions are free, but if you think that, you should be able to provide some technical exemples, not because you're an expert in youtube videos ..
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: PunkicCyborg on June 03, 2013, 08:13:24 AM
I'll be playing my PCE after work to finish up Red Alert, life goes on. This isn't a war.
you must not be very good if you didn't beat it your first try
Not dedicating that much time to Red Alert, the bosses are way to easy IMHO. I have so much life I just stand in front an unload. I play a few rounds and then just save it for later. I just finished a run through all three bonks. I beat them all on my fist try. I am eagerly awaiting my copy of Bloody Wolf as that is among my favorite games.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 03, 2013, 09:36:51 AM
Exactly, once the N-Bomb was dropped all bets were off. These threads always end like this. I'll be playing my PCE after work to finish up Red Alert, life goes on. This isn't a war.
Uh, I'm the one who mentioned the N-word, and I used it as an aside to explain my discomfort with another word being bandied about in this discussion. Nobody actually used the N-word in a statement directed at someone. So no, the N-Bomb was never dropped, as far as I can see (though with these mile-high screens of quoted text I can't really tell).
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 03, 2013, 01:48:02 PM
Borderline 8-Bit, oh you mean like JJ & Jeff, or Dragon Spirit? Yeah that didn't damage the Turbo market at all. Those games lacked anything visually stunning. I didn’t stop playing them however and they still entertained me. But you have to agree those style of games in the U.S did a LOT of damage. Keith Courage too at least Sega made a quality arcade translation right off the bat that looked next gen at the time
JJ&Jeff originally is a game from 30 Nov. 1987, furthermore it was a release game. It looked FANTASTIC back in 1987 and not anything near 8-bit as we knew it from any other NES and SMS games at that time. nice colors, fast and responding gameplay, high resolution, good music. in fact there was a real wonderboy game behind that title. The kung fu (30 Nov. 1987 as well), showing of with sprites such huge, almost never seen in any arcade game at that time. R-Type lol? only about one half a year later of its own and mighty arcade release, a 95% arcade perfect port of that one in a decade arcade ULTRA SMASH HIT, for your own home! only on PCE. lol, where is that borderline 8-Bit?
In other words, the PCE was a HUGE LEAP ahead the 8-bit generation as we knew it. About to comparable what the DC was when it came out and crushed the Ps1 and Saturn generation into deep grounds.
PCE has proven to show of almost any arcade ports between 1987 and 1995 as to be the best and most accurate ports during the whole 16-bit console era. how can it be borderline 8-Bit if it won 1st ranks so many times over MD and SFC?
JJ&Jeff originally is a game from 30 Nov. 1987, furthermore it was a release game. It looked FANTASTIC back in 1987 and not anything near 8-bit as we knew it from any other NES and SMS games at that time. nice colors, fast and responding gameplay, high resolution, good music. in fact there was a real wonderboy game behind that title. The kung fu (30 Nov. 1987 as well), showing of with sprites such huge, almost never seen in any arcade game at that time. R-Type lol? only about one half a year later of its own and mighty arcade release, a 95% arcade perfect port of that one in a decade arcade ULTRA SMASH HIT, for your own home! only on PCE. lol, where is that borderline 8-Bit?
In other words, the PCE was a HUGE LEAP ahead the 8-bit generation as we knew it. About to comparable what the DC was when it came out and crushed the Ps1 and Saturn generation into deep grounds.
Since this thread is pretty everything but what it originally was; when in Rome... That's how I saw it as well. While I didn't have an SMS, I did grow up on the NES. I was an arcade junkie in the mid 80's. I had a pretty limited home computer at the time, Coco 2, at the end of 1983. I got to play a few games. But it wasn't until 1986 that I got my NES and never looked back. Soooo many awesome 8bit games. All the way up until 1990. I got my TG16 in 1990 and played it along side my NES (although not for long, the NES got abandoned fairly quickly after the TG16). Even playing something as super simplistic as Keith Courage... my god... the graphics were incredible! But everything else, Blazing Lazers, Rtype, Ninja Spirit, Bonk, Splatter House, Side Arms, Legendary Axe, Dungeon Explorer, and yes JJ and Jeff. None of those titles *even* looked remotely 8bit. JJ and Jeff looked, and sounded, and -played- like a 16bit next gen game. If I would have played that shit back in 1987 though??? FFfuuuufufufuuu... my mind would have been blown.
The problem with most gamers fond of the 16bit, is that they got into the 16bit generation later on (like 1992 or later). They have a skewed view of what '16bit' is. While I didn't own a Genesis right off the bat, I did play my friends quite a bit (he also had a TG16). I got my Genesis Jan' of 1991. 16bit style was still evolving. There wasn't a lot of difference in the beginning titles of the TG16 and Genesis. It wasn't until about when Sonic came out, that Genesis titles seemed to mature in animation department. Carts got bigger. I remember "Strider 8megs ohh crap!". I while did see an evolution in hucards, it didn't seem as great as in the Genesis. CD games were great, but CD 2.0 was pretty limiting. SuperCD 3.0 ram was desperately needed. Yes, I had played TGCD games early (my brother bought the addon, and a friend how gotten on as well). When the SNES hit the scene, I thought for sure the Turbo was dead. I just remember the SNES being incredible. It's launch games impressed, even with the slowdown. Such visuals... my god.. my eye!
But once I got over the superficial visuals (and audio... that was incredible too), I just played all three systems. I imported stuff for the Duo and eventually Genesis as well. Turbo games did have this more simplistic charm to them, even later ones. But they never seemed '8bit'. Shit, most of the magazines stated that it had two 8bit processors. That was the most believed theory. I never heard of anyone, back in the day, calling turbo games 8bit. 8bit meant NES and all it would have taken is a few minutes of playing some old NES games to realized the stupidity of such a statement. That's not to say that there weren't arguments or such. When the SNES came out, the Turbo's sound chip caught a lot of flack from gamer friends that I knew. Even didn't care for it much anymore. I wanted CD games anyway, so it didn't matter much. But same for the Genesis, after the SNES came out.. the Genesis was sounding VERY dated. Sometimes embarrassingly so. Hell, if the SMS had been popular here long with the FM module, we'd being saying how 8bit the Genesis sounds. If the Turbo feels borderline 8bit, then you don't know what 8bit is. Noob!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 03:13:27 PM
8 Bit sounding Genesis? Streets of rage sounds 8-bit? To Tatsujin, those pics are great and all but they are just screen shots. How the games look, the PCE looks incredible for the most part with it's color pallet. How do the games play, how do they move? Back in the day when I would look at screen shots the SNES looked great. Playing those games leave much to be desired. As we know the PCE has a superior CPU to the SNES.
Borderline 8-Bit, oh you mean like JJ & Jeff, or Dragon Spirit? Yeah that didn't damage the Turbo market at all. Those games lacked anything visually stunning. I didn’t stop playing them however and they still entertained me. But you have to agree those style of games in the U.S did a LOT of damage. Keith Courage too at least Sega made a quality arcade translation right off the bat that looked next gen at the time
JJ&Jeff originally is a game from 30 Nov. 1987, furthermore it was a release game. It looked FANTASTIC back in 1987 and not anything near 8-bit as we knew it from any other NES and SMS games at that time. nice colors, fast and responding gameplay, high resolution, good music. in fact there was a real wonderboy game behind that title. The kung fu (30 Nov. 1987 as well), showing of with sprites such huge, almost never seen in any arcade game at that time. R-Type lol? only about one half a year later of its own and mighty arcade release, a 95% arcade perfect port of that one in a decade arcade ULTRA SMASH HIT, for your own home! only on PCE. lol, where is that borderline 8-Bit?
In other words, the PCE was a HUGE LEAP ahead the 8-bit generation as we knew it. About to comparable what the DC was when it came out and crushed the Ps1 and Saturn generation into deep grounds.
PCE has proven to show of almost any arcade ports between 1987 and 1995 as to be the best and most accurate ports during the whole 16-bit console era. how can it be borderline 8-Bit if it won 1st ranks so many times over MD and SFC?
You really couldn't take a MD or SNES game, at least their main mascots and move it back a generation without serious cuts.
Oh no no, but of course not.. sega and nintendo never would have do that. wake up mc evo, wake up.
Like I said, excuses, do you know the pile of western 8-bit shit I could pick from? THE PCE has good games, the Turbo really did not at first. That was my point. Please read carefully.
Stating that the MD had “8-bit sound” is cute but a comparison of sound FX and chip tunes is really a uphill battle for the PCE. The amount of music and the quality the of the Music the MD displayed is amazing. Again I need only point out Streets of Rage, nothing like that on the PCE in chip tunes. That doesn’t mean the PCE sounds BAD, I like the sound, it had its own specific sound and FX, but the MD had superior sound technology. I think that the pics above look great, any vids to the games running?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 03, 2013, 03:31:58 PM
8 Bit sounding Genesis? Streets of rage sounds 8-bit? To Tatsujin, those pics are great and all but they are just screen shots. How the games look, the PCE looks incredible for the most part with it's color pallet. How do the games play, how do they move? Back in the day when I would look at screen shots the SNES looked great. Playing those games leave much to be desired. As we know the PCE has a superior CPU to the SNES.
Borderline 8-Bit, oh you mean like JJ & Jeff, or Dragon Spirit? Yeah that didn't damage the Turbo market at all. Those games lacked anything visually stunning. I didn’t stop playing them however and they still entertained me. But you have to agree those style of games in the U.S did a LOT of damage. Keith Courage too at least Sega made a quality arcade translation right off the bat that looked next gen at the time
JJ&Jeff originally is a game from 30 Nov. 1987, furthermore it was a release game. It looked FANTASTIC back in 1987 and not anything near 8-bit as we knew it from any other NES and SMS games at that time. nice colors, fast and responding gameplay, high resolution, good music. in fact there was a real wonderboy game behind that title. The kung fu (30 Nov. 1987 as well), showing of with sprites such huge, almost never seen in any arcade game at that time. R-Type lol? only about one half a year later of its own and mighty arcade release, a 95% arcade perfect port of that one in a decade arcade ULTRA SMASH HIT, for your own home! only on PCE. lol, where is that borderline 8-Bit?
In other words, the PCE was a HUGE LEAP ahead the 8-bit generation as we knew it. About to comparable what the DC was when it came out and crushed the Ps1 and Saturn generation into deep grounds.
PCE has proven to show of almost any arcade ports between 1987 and 1995 as to be the best and most accurate ports during the whole 16-bit console era. how can it be borderline 8-Bit if it won 1st ranks so many times over MD and SFC?
You really couldn't take a MD or SNES game, at least their main mascots and move it back a generation without serious cuts.
Oh no no, but of course not.. sega and nintendo never would have do that. wake up mc evo, wake up.
Like I said, excuses, do you know the pile of western 8-bit shit I could pick from? THE PCE has good games, the Turbo really did not at first. That was my point. Please read carefully.
Stating that the MD had “8-bit sound” is cute but a comparison of sound FX and chip tunes is really a uphill battle for the PCE. The amount of music and the quality the of the Music the MD displayed is amazing. Again I need only point out Streets of Rage, nothing like that on the PCE in chip tunes. That doesn’t mean the PCE sounds BAD, I like the sound, it had its own specific sound and FX, but the MD had superior sound technology. I think that the pics above look great, any vids to the games running?
I never stated something like "MD had 8-bit sound". Quote carefully.
and also i do not differ between PCE or TG-16 in terms of hardware. Why should i? it's the f*cking same thing. and that is about what you started to hitchhike this thread at the very beginning. about total hardware (graphics, sound and sprite movement) comparisons, insteat of a nude CPU comparison, on which you still did not get what the CPU work in a console really is about.
and now you hitchhike this thread even further away? total hardware comparison is not good enuff for you anymore, no, now also regional marketings etc. of each console have to be involved for the quest of finding out which system had more power? knock it off, dude. you're just digging your own holes were you constantly falling into.
and just look at that forgotten worlds comparison above. the MD looks like a downgraded SMS version, whilst the PCE version is near to arcade perfection. btw. they do play about the same. MD had 2P. which PCE didn't. also chicki boys plays about the same, just that the PCE is way much more fun looking at all these almost arcade perfect ported BGs and colors. raiden plays perfect on the PCE, i even like it a psort better than the arcade itself in terms of playability. and daimakaimura plays as good as daimakaimura have to play. MD isn't a bad port in terms of playability and sound, but it grafics really looks very sorry compared to the PCE.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 03, 2013, 04:06:29 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are incredible and colorful. I think that Daimakaimura is the best in the 8-16 bit versions out there even if it was on the SGX.
Hitchhikign the thread away? If I am guilty almost everyone in this thread is guilty. Everyone knows that the Western marketing sucked ass and killed the system. Has nothing to do with the HU6280.
Forgotten worlds? PCE better hands down. This is not tough to compare, the MD has it's share of clunkers. The issue I was having is with the later games, the sprites filling the screen and keeping the frame-rate reasonable. We all know the HU6280 is great but I feel the later MD games showed us stuff that the PCE would have real trouble doing. I could be an ass and say Jim Powers but we all know it is a multiscrolling game with as many levels as possible. I do want to stay on topic and when push comes to shove, the MG68K had the edge on sprites, the variety of sizes in sprites, and over all speed. Does this mean that the PCE isn't comparable, no, it does not, it means it's different and you get different style games that play to the systems strengths.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 03, 2013, 04:13:23 PM
The MD often uses the z80 as an audio coprocessor.
It's 8bit.
OMFG 8 BIT SOUND.
OMFG.
OMFG OMFG MFG FG G
I've been beaten at my own game, how humiliating. Now back to Bloody Wolf.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: esteban on June 05, 2013, 11:33:16 AM
STATUS: for the past few days, I have dutifully tried to finish reading this thread before catching up on the other topics. I FINALLY FINISHED THIS DAMN THREAD.
A "shout out" goes to The Professor for keeping things interesting. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.html)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 05, 2013, 12:06:06 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are inedible...
I should think so. The plastic is probably non-toxic, but some of the materials that go into circuit boards are really not going to be good for your gut. Also, watch your teeth on those things.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 05, 2013, 01:08:50 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are inedible...
I should think so. The plastic is probably non-toxic, but some of the materials that go into circuit boards are really not going to be good for your gut. Also, watch your teeth on those things.
lol, so this in fact was no r-typo?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 05, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are inedible...
I should think so. The plastic is probably non-toxic, but some of the materials that go into circuit boards are really not going to be good for your gut. Also, watch your teeth on those things.
Stupid auto correct. Imagine trying to eat a MD game? There is a new HU6280 vs MD68K thread but its going so slow. The folks over on the Sega forums seem to think the 68K can do 3d things better than the HU6280.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Punch on June 05, 2013, 03:18:29 PM
Oh god my brain hurts. I shouldn't have read a thread fully where someone mentally blocks hard facts presented in a clear and concise manner through 16 pages.
At least I can inaugurate my ignore list.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on June 05, 2013, 03:23:25 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are inedible...
I should think so. The plastic is probably non-toxic, but some of the materials that go into circuit boards are really not going to be good for your gut. Also, watch your teeth on those things.
Stupid auto correct. Imagine trying to eat a MD game? There is a new HU6280 vs MD68K thread but its going so slow. The folks over on the Sega forums seem to think the 68K can do 3d things better than the HU6280.
One person did and I believe a couple others disagreed. But it was more like, "the PCE can't do polygons at all" countered by "that's probably not true". In both cases, it sounded like guesses.
It wouldn't surprise me if it could be proven that the MD is better at polygonal stuff. If polygons get rendered using a tile layer, the MD would still have one left over for a background. Someone (Tom?) talked about it once.
The PCE certainly has no trouble doing 3D line-drawn corridors.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 05, 2013, 03:52:36 PM
I think the earlier games on the PCE are inedible...
I should think so. The plastic is probably non-toxic, but some of the materials that go into circuit boards are really not going to be good for your gut. Also, watch your teeth on those things.
Stupid auto correct. Imagine trying to eat a MD game? There is a new HU6280 vs MD68K thread but its going so slow. The folks over on the Sega forums seem to think the 68K can do 3d things better than the HU6280.
One person did and I believe a couple others disagreed. But it was more like, "the PCE can't do polygons at all" countered by "that's probably not true". In both cases, it sounded like guesses.
It wouldn't surprise me if it could be proven that the MD is better at polygonal stuff. If polygons get rendered using a tile layer, the MD would still have one left over for a background. Someone (Tom?) talked about it once.
The PCE certainly has no trouble doing 3D line-drawn corridors.
I know the PCE can draw Polygons. I think it was stated that the MD68K can do it better.
Oh god my brain hurts. I shouldn't have read a thread fully where someone mentally blocks hard facts presented in a clear and concise manner through 16 pages.
At least I can inaugurate my ignore list.
Dude, it's like 8-bit, that's like 8 bits less than the MD. Unless you include the BIOS upgrades from the system 3.0 card duh....
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Bonknuts on June 05, 2013, 04:15:09 PM
Dude, it's like 8-bit, that's like 8 bits less than the MD. Unless you include the BIOS upgrades from the system 3.0 card duh....
Ah-hahaha. Few here will get that joke/reference. You do know that I'm tomaitheous from sega-16, right?
Quote
The folks over on the Sega forums seem to think the 68K can do 3d things better than the HU6280.
If you had bothered to follow along, Touko and I were looking over stef's line fill code. And using code lists with jump tables, the 68k has the edge cycle wise (both clearing the buffer and line drawing to memory). But the real big difference is the VDP tile format of the Genesis. It's already in packed pixel mode, instead of the less friendly planar format (snes, pce). But you already knew that...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 05, 2013, 04:18:31 PM
Dude, it's like 8-bit, that's like 8 bits less than the MD. Unless you include the BIOS upgrades from the system 3.0 card duh....
Ah-hahaha. Few here will get that joke/reference. You do know that I'm tomaitheous from sega-16, right?
Quote
The folks over on the Sega forums seem to think the 68K can do 3d things better than the HU6280.
If you had bothered to follow along, Touko and I were looking over stef's line fill code. And using code lists with jump tables, the 68k has the edge cycle wise (both clearing the buffer and line drawing to memory). But the real big difference is the VDP tile format of the Genesis. It's already in packed pixel mode, instead of the less friendly planar format (snes, pce). But you already knew that...
That's was I was searching for, and a quality addition to this thread. Of course I know who you are, how can I forget teaching you about the bios revisions, specifically the Neo Geo bios that almost was.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 05, 2013, 07:41:04 PM
Anyone who says the PCE's sound is inadequate needs to listen to this game:
Just because it didn't always do better than beeps & bloops, doesn't mean it couldn't.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 05, 2013, 09:46:10 PM
Anyone who says the PCE's sound is inadequate needs to listen to this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88i7h4V302I
Just because it didn't always do better than beeps & bloops, doesn't mean it couldn't.
Most every system used "bleeps and bloops" for sound fx in shooters, so trying to finger point to this as being a system fault is kind of anal and hypocritical. This was basically standard fare on any given home system for shooters. That was a decision made by the programmers sound division usually, and not due to any imaginary sound hardware limit other then ram. If they wanted constant digitized sounding explosions or whatever blaring out and cutting in on the music, they could have done that, but I would imagine it would be at the expense of ram, and possibly the annoyance of the player. They had to strike a balance, and that was not always easy to do. At any rate I always considered Parodius to be a fine example of PCE audio. The audio was clean and well defined, and very upbeat musically. The voice samples were also very clear. Stage 2 in fact is quite impressive for the system, both visually and audio wise. Considering the hardware the arcade original used, this was a pretty good port all things considered.
I think there is a good reason why we didn't see any Gradius or Parodius titles on MD/Genesis. I honestly don't think they would have ported over well given the VDP's limits on color, etc. It def was not due to being hardware exclusive, since both Snes and PCE got ports of Konami shooters from the series. It probably had more to do with them looking at the 3 platforms and just realizing the MD would have done the weakest job of it and ended up being unnecessary (the Saturn got Konami's arcade shooter love though). Sales in Japan were already low for the MD as is anyway. What support they gave the system was always considered a mixed blessing too. Stuff like Sunset Riders clearly didn't port over well at all, and even TMNT looked pretty bland visually due to the color limits (clearly they had to make sacrifices to the sprites they reused from Turtles in Time).
Bloodlines looked good, but they got to cater that game from the ground up around the VDP and it still didn't match Dracula X's visuals. People cant use cart versus cd storage as an excuse here either, as both Snes Castlevania titles hold up well against Dracula X, visually or otherwise). This was the case with most Konami titles more catered to the MD VDP, compared to the few "ports" they attempted. Port wise their strongest title was probably Lethal Enforcers or Snatcher. That's not really saying much.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: touko on June 05, 2013, 10:15:43 PM
Dude, it's like 8-bit, that's like 8 bits less than the MD. Unless you include the BIOS upgrades from the system 3.0 card duh....
Ah-hahaha. Few here will get that joke/reference. You do know that I'm tomaitheous from sega-16, right?
oh lol, let me guess. you put a trap in his way and he promptly fell into?
When EvilEvoIX first started all of this crap on sega-16, he wasted many more pages than this in multiple threads, swearing up and down that HuCards, especially the crappier games, showed everything that the PCE could possibly do (just like here, he would cite top tier MD games and lower end PCE games as a rational comparison). He went on and on about how the CD-ROM was a major hardware upgrade and that the stock PCE could not handle any CD game, even without the CD music and adpcm.
After programmers, tech experts and everyone else pointed out the obvious for a long tine, he finally switched his tactic to insisting that the System Cards are bios upgrades which transform the PCE hardware, giving it new capabilities. Basically the same thing as the 32X, but not quite as much of a boost in power and special abilities. Kind of like some of the websites during the late 90's, which claimed that the power of the Arcade Card grants the PCE Playstation level realtime 3D capabilities.
Again, he argued this for way too long and lost what was left of any respect within the forum. When he decided that he still wanted to be a part of the 'hardcore gaming' community, he embarrassingly went out of his way to parody himself as often as he could, no matter how out of place it was in a discussion. The idea was to convince everyone that wasn't such and an ignorant fool and had actually just been joking around all along. Except it only cemented his image of total lack of self awareness, as he couldn't figure out that instead of saving face, this would mean that he was really just a relentless troll all along.
If he had instead simply apologized for being so thick and wasting everyone's time and admitted that he was totally wrong but understands now.. THAT would have had the desired effect. But his recent tirade here has only proven that he was serious all along, as well as addicted to trolling/flame wars.
Maybe the 180 degree switch to suddenly saying the exact opposite of his recent arguments and winking and nudging will fool a couple people. But this thread has shown that it's only a matter of time before he tries doing all of this again any where that will listen.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 06:19:59 AM
How many forums has he tried this shit on exactly, and how long has he been doing this? I am surprised he wasn't ousted for this early on here. If I had known I'd never had sold anything PCE related to him realizing he had no respect for the system or anything.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Black Tiger on June 06, 2013, 06:46:46 AM
How many forums has he tried this shit on exactly, and how long has he been doing this? I am surprised he wasn't ousted for this early on here. If I had known I'd never had sold anything PCE related to him realizing he had no respect for the system or anything.
He said both that everyone agreed with him in the neo-geo forums as well as many people strongly disagreed with him.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he came here to actually learn about the PCE before judging it. He seems to be interested in becoming another "hardcore gaming" celebrity on youtube. The kind that is considered an expert if they own a PCE system and prove it by showing it on camera.
He also argued that the PCE sux because all the games and all the hardware is more expensive than Genesis stuff. I guess that after he was told that people actually buy stuff for half the eBay prices he was quoting, he figured that if anyone deserves to scoop up the kinds of steals that gougers say we lie about, it should be him.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Arkhan on June 06, 2013, 06:55:28 AM
Wait you mean the Super Grafx + Arcade Card doesn't compete with the Playstation?
f*ck.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 06, 2013, 07:44:56 AM
Most every system used "bleeps and bloops" for sound fx in shooters, so trying to finger point to this as being a system fault is kind of anal and hypocritical.
Was this directed at me? Because, I don't mind the bleeps & bloops...
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 08:47:18 AM
Most every system used "bleeps and bloops" for sound fx in shooters, so trying to finger point to this as being a system fault is kind of anal and hypocritical.
Was this directed at me? Because, I don't mind the bleeps & bloops...
It was but not in a negative way. It was more of a addition to what you had already stated/point you were making. I figured you were replying to assface and his invalid hypocritical complaining about all PCE games sounding like bleeps and bloops.
How many forums has he tried this shit on exactly, and how long has he been doing this? I am surprised he wasn't ousted for this early on here. If I had known I'd never had sold anything PCE related to him realizing he had no respect for the system or anything.
He said both that everyone agreed with him in the neo-geo forums as well as many people strongly disagreed with him.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he came here to actually learn about the PCE before judging it. He seems to be interested in becoming another "hardcore gaming" celebrity on youtube. The kind that is considered an expert if they own a PCE system and prove it by showing it on camera.
He also argued that the PCE sux because all the games and all the hardware is more expensive than Genesis stuff. I guess that after he was told that people actually buy stuff for half the eBay prices he was quoting, he figured that if anyone deserves to scoop up the kinds of steals that gougers say we lie about, it should be him.
You know when he gave me a link to the unboxing video of the system I sold him, I just kind of rolled my eyes when I realized its one of those guys I sold the thing to. I just don't get the unboxing video thing. I mean, well in some ways I get it, like when people do it for brand new collectors items like box sets, so they can show what all is included. But this crap where its just like "hey look at me me me look and see what I got in the mail brag brag brag" topped with some expert wanna be commentary, I just have to turn away. I only suffered this guys video because I was curious as to how he would treat the system on camera, and honestly I could barely suffer his voice the entire time and kind of cringed a lot at how he handled the Duo-R.
If I ever sell any of this stuff again, if its going to be a matter of a forum related sale I'm going to want to know more about the guy next time since I will hear about it down the road anyway. If its ebay I at least have the benefit of not ever knowing or having some a$$hole send me a video link since most of my buyers could care less what I think about what they got in the mail.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 06, 2013, 12:07:12 PM
Not to forget that he already tried his 68k nonsense inhere just about a month or two ago, when he all raged about how strong it is and the neo geo easily could do games like mario kart, because the 68k is such a powerfull cpu which is also responsible for all the 3D stuff going on in segas super scaler games. Peeps also tried to correct him, but he sure wouldn't lissen, and the thread went similar ways like this one.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
Dude, it's like 8-bit, that's like 8 bits less than the MD. Unless you include the BIOS upgrades from the system 3.0 card duh....
Ah-hahaha. Few here will get that joke/reference. You do know that I'm tomaitheous from sega-16, right?
oh lol, let me guess. you put a trap in his way and he promptly fell into?
When EvilEvoIX first started all of this crap on sega-16, he wasted many more pages than this in multiple threads, swearing up and down that HuCards, especially the crappier games, showed everything that the PCE could possibly do (just like here, he would cite top tier MD games and lower end PCE games as a rational comparison). He went on and on about how the CD-ROM was a major hardware upgrade and that the stock PCE could not handle any CD game, even without the CD music and adpcm.
After programmers, tech experts and everyone else pointed out the obvious for a long tine, he finally switched his tactic to insisting that the System Cards are bios upgrades which transform the PCE hardware, giving it new capabilities. Basically the same thing as the 32X, but not quite as much of a boost in power and special abilities. Kind of like some of the websites during the late 90's, which claimed that the power of the Arcade Card grants the PCE Playstation level realtime 3D capabilities.
Again, he argued this for way too long and lost what was left of any respect within the forum. When he decided that he still wanted to be a part of the 'hardcore gaming' community, he embarrassingly went out of his way to parody himself as often as he could, no matter how out of place it was in a discussion. The idea was to convince everyone that wasn't such and an ignorant fool and had actually just been joking around all along. Except it only cemented his image of total lack of self awareness, as he couldn't figure out that instead of saving face, this would mean that he was really just a relentless troll all along.
If he had instead simply apologized for being so thick and wasting everyone's time and admitted that he was totally wrong but understands now.. THAT would have had the desired effect. But his recent tirade here has only proven that he was serious all along, as well as addicted to trolling/flame wars.
Maybe the 180 degree switch to suddenly saying the exact opposite of his recent arguments and winking and nudging will fool a couple people. But this thread has shown that it's only a matter of time before he tries doing all of this again any where that will listen.
I’m sorry, I don’t remember this story. What I do remember is dangling a treat over some people’s heads and watching them jump over and over again. If you didn’t get the “Bios” rant especially when I stated it married the processors in the Neo Geo board and made it 48 Bit, I believe you will be making an entertaining run time and time again.
To be perfectly honest I pointed out that the System cards allowed more Grafx because of the additional memory, the Bios was a red herring that added about 20 more pages of B.S. I never pointed out the System cards as a “32x” power increase, cute revisionist history ploy, but ultimately untrue. Most Sega fan bois and programmers and experts still point out the 68K’s merits and how it can do things the HU6280 would suffer at.
That said all Bios upgrades included, I know every bit of grafx shown on the PCE is pure HU6280 with a big help of a superior color VDP and some dynamic tiles and then a series of memory upgrades to fit more sprites and animation. No voodoo 32Bit bios unless Hudson has us all fooled ;) I was way into the Bit-wars as 8-9 year old and even back in the early 90’s I was well aware that the TurboGrafx was powered by an 8-bit CPU which was basically taboo at the lunch table. Still spent a boat load of cash on Bonk and a Turbo Express. It ruled and I miss it dearly.
The main topic was the tired and entrenched MD68K Vs. the HU6280 and someone pointed out that the HU6280 did “8-bit things better” which I quoted from Sega-16 and was thoroughly dismissed. Later posts stated that once 16-bit and 32 bit operations the MD68K retains an advantage but never THE Advantage something like SNK’s MD68K would have in terms of speed and sprites.
It’s no secret I prefer the MD as I can get stacks and stacks of games for $1 and can get a CD add-on that works perfectly for $30. The MD itself is barely $15 and they basically come free from stacks of games. It’s a quality system for Mega Cheap. The only reason my Turbo Collection isn’t any bigger is because it is so much damn money.
I will never apologize for being “Thick”, I pointed out several times it’s a glandular issue and I have nothing to be ashamed of.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 01:33:40 PM
Most every system used "bleeps and bloops" for sound fx in shooters, so trying to finger point to this as being a system fault is kind of anal and hypocritical.
Was this directed at me? Because, I don't mind the bleeps & bloops...
It was but not in a negative way. It was more of a addition to what you had already stated/point you were making. I figured you were replying to assface and his invalid hypocritical complaining about all PCE games sounding like bleeps and bloops
How many forums has he tried this shit on exactly, and how long has he been doing this? I am surprised he wasn't ousted for this early on here. If I had known I'd never had sold anything PCE related to him realizing he had no respect for the system or anything.
He said both that everyone agreed with him in the neo-geo forums as well as many people strongly disagreed with him.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he came here to actually learn about the PCE before judging it. He seems to be interested in becoming another "hardcore gaming" celebrity on youtube. The kind that is considered an expert if they own a PCE system and prove it by showing it on camera.
He also argued that the PCE sux because all the games and all the hardware is more expensive than Genesis stuff. I guess that after he was told that people actually buy stuff for half the eBay prices he was quoting, he figured that if anyone deserves to scoop up the kinds of steals that gougers say we lie about, it should be him.
You know when he gave me a link to the unboxing video of the system I sold him, I just kind of rolled my eyes when I realized its one of those guys I sold the thing to. I just don't get the unboxing video thing. I mean, well in some ways I get it, like when people do it for brand new collectors items like box sets, so they can show what all is included. But this crap where its just like "hey look at me me me look and see what I got in the mail brag brag brag" topped with some expert wanna be commentary, I just have to turn away. I only suffered this guys video because I was curious as to how he would treat the system on camera, and honestly I could barely suffer his voice the entire time and kind of cringed a lot at how he handled the Duo-R.
If I ever sell any of this stuff again, if its going to be a matter of a forum related sale I'm going to want to know more about the guy next time since I will hear about it down the road anyway. If its ebay I at least have the benefit of not ever knowing or having some a$$hole send me a video link since most of my buyers could care less what I think about what they got in the mail.
Thanks again for the system dude, it rules!!! Runs great, still need to upgrade the S-Video to RGB however. To me, IMHO, the sound of the PCE is a bit scratchy (Not saying the MD doesn't have shitty sounding games) and that's all I have to say about that.
I never ever ever in any way shape or form mentioned that the PCE sucked in any way. How could it? It's an indefensible argument. It is UNFORTUNATE the cost of getting into the system especially state side. I started like everyone else, a TG16 with RF and one controller which allows you to plat western games. One Turbo Booster later I got composite and stereo and god forbid I wanted a working CD unit. I just went duo and then it again has to be modded.
For better or for worse it's a harder system to collect for and it has been all but Hi-Jacked by eBay and private sellers that make it extremely expensive hardware and games. There is a dude right by me trying to sell a System 3.0 Bios card (the 32Bit expansive hardware bios re-boot similar to a 32X attachment) for $200!?!?!? That alone should shut down a lot of people.
.A celebrity I am not, I just like playing games. That un-boxing vid was because I was excited to own a system I’ve always wanted. What I can't get over, and this never fails, time and time again, the amount of arrogance and elitism from fan bois and self proclaimed Know-it-alls. Fragile egos shattering so easily and that ever so embarrassing attempt to try and POWNED someone. The first run of the internet is "You can't win an argument on the internet." You guys sure tried, what did it get you but a giant aggravation?
Also some of the games you gave me had water damage, I pointed that out and you read from some eBay transcript trying to absolve you of the blame. Maybe, just maybe, next time mention that some of the games, the books, and the cases were submerged in water and MAY fall apart if you try to read the book. Say what you want about me, I can take any and all criticism. But I would NEVER do what you did as a seller. You said the games were in “good to fair condition”. And now you want to go on some elitist rant about how dare I be a gamer and blah blah blah poser gamer, embarrassing.
Next time be more honest, I was gona keep my mouth shut on that one but since you feel like you have the right to give people damaged games and not take responsibility for it, I feel the responsibility to let people know.
Comment?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 01:34:23 PM
Not to forget that he already tried his 68k nonsense inhere just about a month or two ago, when he all raged about how strong it is and the neo geo easily could do games like mario kart, because the 68k is such a powerfull cpu which is also responsible for all the 3D stuff going on in segas super scaler games. Peeps also tried to correct him, but he sure wouldn't lissen, and the thread went similar ways like this one.
The Neo Geo can bake you breakfast if you program it properly. What's not to know about that system?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 01:47:12 PM
. I only suffered this guys video because I was curious as to how he would treat the system on camera, and honestly I could barely suffer his voice the entire time and kind of cringed a lot at how he handled the Duo-R.
If I ever sell any of this stuff again, if its going to be a matter of a forum related sale I'm going to want to know more about the guy next time since I will hear about it down the road anyway. If its ebay I at least have the benefit of not ever knowing or having some a$$hole send me a video link since most of my buyers could care less what I think about what they got in the mail.
The only a$$hole is you selling flood damaged games and not taking any responsibility about it.
Thanks again for the system, it get's used daily!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 06, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Not to forget that he already tried his 68k nonsense inhere just about a month or two ago, when he all raged about how strong it is and the neo geo easily could do games like mario kart, because the 68k is such a powerfull cpu which is also responsible for all the 3D stuff going on in segas super scaler games. Peeps also tried to correct him, but he sure wouldn't lissen, and the thread went similar ways like this one.
The Neo Geo can bake you breakfast if you program it properly. What's not to know about that system?
Ask your pops to program it "properly" like that and upload it on your YT channel. BECAUSE I f*ckIN' WANNA SEE THAT!!
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Tatsujin on June 06, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
Also some of the games you gave me had water damage, I pointed that out and you read from some eBay transcript trying to absolve you of the blame. Maybe, just maybe, next time mention that some of the games, the books, and the cases were submerged in water and MAY fall apart if you try to read the book. Say what you want about me, I can take any and all criticism. But I would NEVER do what you did as a seller. You said the games were in “good to fair condition”. And now you want to go on some elitist rant about how dare I be a gamer and blah blah blah poser gamer, embarrassing.
Next time be more honest, I was gona keep my mouth shut on that one but since you feel like you have the right to give people damaged games and not take responsibility for it, I feel the responsibility to let people know.
Comment?
EvilEvoIX, as you well know, the auction had listed some of the games included with the system as "acceptable". Per ebays ruleset on "acceptable":
"An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections."
How you could confuse "acceptable" with MINT SEALED VGA QUALITY I do not know. It just makes you a knob either way.
You wanted to purchase a ebay item outside of ebay to get a deal and you did not even bother to read the full auction details prior to doing so to see what all you were getting in to. If you had you should not even had expected any instructions to be included at all, or in the least if it was a concern, message prior and ask about it. The instructions were included by proxy simply because they were there, and were not required to be there per "acceptable". I listed their condition specifically as "The games condition vary from acceptable to very good condition." per ebays policy so that the buyer would know to expect the worst concerning their condition.
The actual game disc/hucards their-selves were in good to very good condition scratch wise regardless of any case or manual damage, and Keith Courage and Bomberman 93 had excellent manuals (Side Arms Special manual is a fold out, and was in good condition/intact). A large pic showing the games showed what to expect concerning which ones included manuals, etc, had case damage, blah blah blah.
The item was listed for auction and was technically no longer a forum sale, and you knew this and contacted me about it anyway asking for a deal outside of ebay/wanting Pc Genjin 3 included in the minimum bid asking price you were going to be paying. When I listed the system here those games were not included with it at all, and the auction was quite specific about their condition. You had every chance to view the auction fully and ask any and all questions prior to finalizing your payment. You cant blame others for your short sightedness and neglect to read thoroughly or ask for item specifics. When something on ebay is listed as acceptable, you should expect the worst, not f*cking MINT condition. Don't sit here and try to make it out like you were scammed when no such thing had occurred.
The amount you paid for the system with 9 games was per the auction minimum price, and I included Pc Genjin 3 to make the deal amazing for you, as I had assumed you were a real up and coming fan of the system. I offered that amount, that difference that the games had added to the price of the system, back to you when you complained, via you send the games back and I refund you the difference from the asking price I had originally asked for the system itself listed here, which would have amounted to about 30 bucks or so. YOU DECLINED THE OFFER OF REFUND FOR THE GAMES. Since you want to accuse me of trying to scam you, I am now forced to post your pms to prove libel.
I honestly don't recommend playing any burned disc outside of using Magic Engine emulation. They are murder on the older TG-CD, Core Grafx Super Cd Rom, and Duo lasers. The disc media they put out now is short strategy stuff made cheap in Asia and designed to be read on higher powered lasers. The stuff stresses out older designed lasers like nothing else because they have to struggle more to focus on the disc. Worse yet, in the case of the Duo and Duo-R, cd-r media has been known to cause the laser to slide all the way to the end and lock the gears up. When that happens you have to take the system apart and put it back on track manually. If you try to do it any other way, like pushing the laser with your finger back and forth it will break the teeth on the gears in the drive assembly. Playing burned stuff sounds like a great shortcut, but honestly unless you are experienced at swapping lasers and tuning them, or putting them back on track after the gears jam, it is just not worth it.
Oh yeah, in case no one mentioned it to you, the Ave Pad 6 has a A/B switch. The top position of the slide switch is for 6 button games like Street Fighter 2. The bottom position is for normal games. If you accidentally leave it in 6 button mode it wont work on normal games right, so just keep that in mind when playing. :) Also, good luck on Image Fight II. It's pretty rough difficulty wise.
I already made a unblocking vid. Looks like some games wheat here's a Storm. My god that A/V cable is Short! I need some Duo pads and a multi tap of you could have any for sale. FYI S-Video looks good but not as good as RGB. That may be my next step.
I already made a unblocking vid. Looks like some games wheat here's a Storm. My god that A/V cable is Short! I need some Duo pads and a multi tap of you could have any for sale. FYI S-Video looks good but not as good as RGB. That may be my next step.
Should I post the video?
Not sure what part of your message is stating exactly, but if you are referring to the condition of the games then yeah a couple had water damage or something on the manuals. A couple were given to me by friends, etc, or purchased on the cheap. Thats why in the auction details I listed "The games condition vary from acceptable to very good condition.". According to ebay "acceptable" is the lowest of the low condition wise as long as the game works, so I designed the listing around their requirements. The games were practically just bonus items since the system itself without games was already worth the low bid amount as is due to region, led, and s-video mod.
Sorry don't have any extra game pads or anything. All I have left are games which I am still selling the remainder of off. If you decide to undo s-video and re-implement RGB, a RGB amp is already in the system and ready to be reconnected. If you do not know how to do this I recommend you send the system to someone who does, and mention that the amp is already pre-built and in the system, just unconnected/disabled. That should save you some money when you have to pay the person. If you need more length AV wise I would just use a AV switch box close by the system. Thats what I did.
Led mod? What Color is the light otherwise? Also no problem on the games especially bonk, but I think the flood damage and books being taped together should be mentioned. Would not have made a difference in our auction(great deal, thank you).
Led mod? What Color is the light otherwise? Also no problem on the games especially bonk, but I think the flood damage and books being taped together should be mentioned. Would not have made a difference in our auction(great deal, thank you).
Yeah like I said, I went by ebay specifics on there. Per their "Acceptable" listing: An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included.
I guess if you are not used to selling or buying a ton on ebay then you probably were not aware of what that meant on the listing, but ebay specifically requires it be list that way as "acceptable" when manuals or boxes are missing or heavily damaged. It was not a listing for the forum, you just happened to buy it is all. Due to the way I listed it I expected anyone actually buying on ebay or viewing the auction to know what they are getting into, and to ask if they wanted to know individual details after seeing the games listed as "acceptable". The auction really was not for forum consumption at all, but I cut you a deal anyway and pulled it since you were a member.
I had a couple of people wanting to know why I pulled the auction and offering me $360 and $380 or so separately for it on there after I pulled the listing, but I stuck to our sale since money was not the main motivator for me. When I originally listed the system on here on the forum I did it for about $300 shipped with NO games, so had you contacted me about it prior to the ebay listing you'd have gotten it for that amount, but none of the games would have been included (that includes Bonk 3). To give you a kind of idea on the deal you got on the games, Image Fight II as a loose disc sales for about $20-30. JP Bonk 3 loose was in the same price range, so basically 10 games for super dirt cheap.
If you really are not happy with the games condition, you can send them all back to me and I will refund you $30 for them (as long as they are in the same condition I sent them in I would have no problem doing this), so you'd basically get the system itself at what the original price I offered it for on this forum was. I would have no problem doing this, though people would probably think you are crazy for wanting to return them at the price you got them for. Personally I wont care, I can list them all in one bulk auction and they will sale fast. If you decide you want to do this, just let me know by late this evening so I can transfer money from my bank account into paypal to cover it once you send the games back.
Originally the LED on the system I believe was red. I did not do the LED mod. That was done by the prior owner, etc. Doujindance I believe was the original modder who did the LED mod.
I am completely ignorant to that eBay policy but it certainly makes selling easier :wink: I won't return the games as you were truthful in the condition based upon eBay rules. It was an eBay auction so there you have it. I just wasn't aware. I would have taken them anyway, just was surprised to see the condition. That said you CANNOT look a gift horse in the mouth, thanks again, I'm having a lot of fun.
See?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u_-eJIWFwQ
I used to have a Turbo Express back in the day, like 1995. Nobody knew what it was and I loved it until it got stolen too. I also found a loose TG16 that had absolutely nothing. I just sold that too so I never really had a home system until a TG16 this year, then a Turbo Boost, and now a Duo. It is so hard to be satisfied. I feel I have a decent amount of knowledge about these NEC systems and the games but my knowledge is really based upon SEGA and Neo Geo.
Thanks again, and in no way as any ill will intended I just speak my mind about what I saw and you've explained yourself and taught me something. I try to steer clear of the bay for obvious reasons and you helped me out big time.
Thanks again for the DUO R. I am having so much fun with it and already beat Bonk 3. I was wondering what kinda S-Video cable I need? I really want a longer cable so I can move it further.
Thanks again for the DUO R. I am having so much fun with it and already beat Bonk 3. I was wondering what kinda S-Video cable I need? I really want a longer cable so I can move it further.
Thanks!
Glad you are enjoying it. :)
Concerning the cable. Honestly you would have to make one. That was a one off cable I did for that system and assigned chroma and luma to the extra two pinholes on the AV port, no one sells them pre-made like that right now. You're only other choice is to use the normal DUO Av cable which will not give you s-video, just composite. What I would advise you to do is get a switch box that can accept multiple s-video and audio in, and use that as a form of extension since you can run longer longer svideo and audio cables from the box to your monitor etc. Just run the av cable I gave you into that and that should help you get the length you need. Thats what I ended up doing when I needed to use longer cables.
You want to sit there and complain endlessly about a games condition because it didn't arrive mint (because it was never even listed as such) and you freely toss about a $300 game system like a little bitch. :roll: Yeah, go f*ck yourself.
If anyone wants this guys full name/address and email so you can black list him, hit me up via pm. Black Tiger, I highly suggest you post this shit on whatever Sega forum he is posting on that you frequent. The guy does not need to be buying from any sellers there, here, or anywhere.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 05:57:14 PM
Also some of the games you gave me had water damage, I pointed that out and you read from some eBay transcript trying to absolve you of the blame. Maybe, just maybe, next time mention that some of the games, the books, and the cases were submerged in water and MAY fall apart if you try to read the book. Say what you want about me, I can take any and all criticism. But I would NEVER do what you did as a seller. You said the games were in “good to fair condition”. And now you want to go on some elitist rant about how dare I be a gamer and blah blah blah poser gamer, embarrassing.
Next time be more honest, I was gona keep my mouth shut on that one but since you feel like you have the right to give people damaged games and not take responsibility for it, I feel the responsibility to let people know.
Comment?
EvilEvoIX, as you well know, the auction had listed some of the games included with the system as "acceptable". Per ebays ruleset on "acceptable":
"An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections."
How you could confuse "acceptable" with MINT SEALED VGA QUALITY I do not know. It just makes you a knob either way.
You wanted to purchase a ebay item outside of ebay to get a deal and you did not even bother to read the full auction details prior to doing so to see what all you were getting in to. If you had you should not even had expected any instructions to be included at all, or in the least if it was a concern, message prior and ask about it. The instructions were included by proxy simply because they were there, and were not required to be there per "acceptable". I listed their condition specifically as "The games condition vary from acceptable to very good condition." per ebays policy so that the buyer would know to expect the worst concerning their condition.
The actual game disc/hucards their-selves were in good to very good condition scratch wise regardless of any case or manual damage, and Keith Courage and Bomberman 93 had excellent manuals (Side Arms Special manual is a fold out, and was in good condition/intact). A large pic showing the games showed what to expect concerning which ones included manuals, etc, had case damage, blah blah blah.
The item was listed for auction and was technically no longer a forum sale, and you knew this and contacted me about it anyway asking for a deal outside of ebay/wanting Pc Genjin 3 included in the minimum bid asking price you were going to be paying. When I listed the system here those games were not included with it at all, and the auction was quite specific about their condition. You had every chance to view the auction fully and ask any and all questions prior to finalizing your payment. You cant blame others for your short sightedness and neglect to read thoroughly or ask for item specifics. When something on ebay is listed as acceptable, you should expect the worst, not f*cking MINT condition. Don't sit here and try to make it out like you were scammed when no such thing had occurred.
The amount you paid for the system with 9 games was per the auction minimum price, and I included Pc Genjin 3 to make the deal amazing for you, as I had assumed you were a real up and coming fan of the system. I offered that amount, that difference that the games had added to the price of the system, back to you when you complained, via you send the games back and I refund you the difference from the asking price I had originally asked for the system itself listed here, which would have amounted to about 30 bucks or so. YOU DECLINED THE OFFER OF REFUND FOR THE GAMES. Since you want to accuse me of trying to scam you, I am now forced to post your pms to prove libel.
I honestly don't recommend playing any burned disc outside of using Magic Engine emulation. They are murder on the older TG-CD, Core Grafx Super Cd Rom, and Duo lasers. The disc media they put out now is short strategy stuff made cheap in Asia and designed to be read on higher powered lasers. The stuff stresses out older designed lasers like nothing else because they have to struggle more to focus on the disc. Worse yet, in the case of the Duo and Duo-R, cd-r media has been known to cause the laser to slide all the way to the end and lock the gears up. When that happens you have to take the system apart and put it back on track manually. If you try to do it any other way, like pushing the laser with your finger back and forth it will break the teeth on the gears in the drive assembly. Playing burned stuff sounds like a great shortcut, but honestly unless you are experienced at swapping lasers and tuning them, or putting them back on track after the gears jam, it is just not worth it.
Oh yeah, in case no one mentioned it to you, the Ave Pad 6 has a A/B switch. The top position of the slide switch is for 6 button games like Street Fighter 2. The bottom position is for normal games. If you accidentally leave it in 6 button mode it wont work on normal games right, so just keep that in mind when playing. :) Also, good luck on Image Fight II. It's pretty rough difficulty wise.
I already made a unblocking vid. Looks like some games wheat here's a Storm. My god that A/V cable is Short! I need some Duo pads and a multi tap of you could have any for sale. FYI S-Video looks good but not as good as RGB. That may be my next step.
I already made a unblocking vid. Looks like some games wheat here's a Storm. My god that A/V cable is Short! I need some Duo pads and a multi tap of you could have any for sale. FYI S-Video looks good but not as good as RGB. That may be my next step.
Should I post the video?
Not sure what part of your message is stating exactly, but if you are referring to the condition of the games then yeah a couple had water damage or something on the manuals. A couple were given to me by friends, etc, or purchased on the cheap. Thats why in the auction details I listed "The games condition vary from acceptable to very good condition.". According to ebay "acceptable" is the lowest of the low condition wise as long as the game works, so I designed the listing around their requirements. The games were practically just bonus items since the system itself without games was already worth the low bid amount as is due to region, led, and s-video mod.
Sorry don't have any extra game pads or anything. All I have left are games which I am still selling the remainder of off. If you decide to undo s-video and re-implement RGB, a RGB amp is already in the system and ready to be reconnected. If you do not know how to do this I recommend you send the system to someone who does, and mention that the amp is already pre-built and in the system, just unconnected/disabled. That should save you some money when you have to pay the person. If you need more length AV wise I would just use a AV switch box close by the system. Thats what I did.
Led mod? What Color is the light otherwise? Also no problem on the games especially bonk, but I think the flood damage and books being taped together should be mentioned. Would not have made a difference in our auction(great deal, thank you).
Led mod? What Color is the light otherwise? Also no problem on the games especially bonk, but I think the flood damage and books being taped together should be mentioned. Would not have made a difference in our auction(great deal, thank you).
Yeah like I said, I went by ebay specifics on there. Per their "Acceptable" listing: An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included.
I guess if you are not used to selling or buying a ton on ebay then you probably were not aware of what that meant on the listing, but ebay specifically requires it be list that way as "acceptable" when manuals or boxes are missing or heavily damaged. It was not a listing for the forum, you just happened to buy it is all. Due to the way I listed it I expected anyone actually buying on ebay or viewing the auction to know what they are getting into, and to ask if they wanted to know individual details after seeing the games listed as "acceptable". The auction really was not for forum consumption at all, but I cut you a deal anyway and pulled it since you were a member.
I had a couple of people wanting to know why I pulled the auction and offering me $360 and $380 or so separately for it on there after I pulled the listing, but I stuck to our sale since money was not the main motivator for me. When I originally listed the system on here on the forum I did it for about $300 shipped with NO games, so had you contacted me about it prior to the ebay listing you'd have gotten it for that amount, but none of the games would have been included (that includes Bonk 3). To give you a kind of idea on the deal you got on the games, Image Fight II as a loose disc sales for about $20-30. JP Bonk 3 loose was in the same price range, so basically 10 games for super dirt cheap.
If you really are not happy with the games condition, you can send them all back to me and I will refund you $30 for them (as long as they are in the same condition I sent them in I would have no problem doing this), so you'd basically get the system itself at what the original price I offered it for on this forum was. I would have no problem doing this, though people would probably think you are crazy for wanting to return them at the price you got them for. Personally I wont care, I can list them all in one bulk auction and they will sale fast. If you decide you want to do this, just let me know by late this evening so I can transfer money from my bank account into paypal to cover it once you send the games back.
Originally the LED on the system I believe was red. I did not do the LED mod. That was done by the prior owner, etc. Doujindance I believe was the original modder who did the LED mod.
I am completely ignorant to that eBay policy but it certainly makes selling easier :wink: I won't return the games as you were truthful in the condition based upon eBay rules. It was an eBay auction so there you have it. I just wasn't aware. I would have taken them anyway, just was surprised to see the condition. That said you CANNOT look a gift horse in the mouth, thanks again, I'm having a lot of fun.
See?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u_-eJIWFwQ
I used to have a Turbo Express back in the day, like 1995. Nobody knew what it was and I loved it until it got stolen too. I also found a loose TG16 that had absolutely nothing. I just sold that too so I never really had a home system until a TG16 this year, then a Turbo Boost, and now a Duo. It is so hard to be satisfied. I feel I have a decent amount of knowledge about these NEC systems and the games but my knowledge is really based upon SEGA and Neo Geo.
Thanks again, and in no way as any ill will intended I just speak my mind about what I saw and you've explained yourself and taught me something. I try to steer clear of the bay for obvious reasons and you helped me out big time.
Thanks again for the DUO R. I am having so much fun with it and already beat Bonk 3. I was wondering what kinda S-Video cable I need? I really want a longer cable so I can move it further.
Thanks again for the DUO R. I am having so much fun with it and already beat Bonk 3. I was wondering what kinda S-Video cable I need? I really want a longer cable so I can move it further.
Thanks!
Glad you are enjoying it. :)
Concerning the cable. Honestly you would have to make one. That was a one off cable I did for that system and assigned chroma and luma to the extra two pinholes on the AV port, no one sells them pre-made like that right now. You're only other choice is to use the normal DUO Av cable which will not give you s-video, just composite. What I would advise you to do is get a switch box that can accept multiple s-video and audio in, and use that as a form of extension since you can run longer longer svideo and audio cables from the box to your monitor etc. Just run the av cable I gave you into that and that should help you get the length you need. Thats what I ended up doing when I needed to use longer cables.
You want to sit there and complain endlessly about a games condition because it didn't arrive mint (because it was never even listed as such) and you freely toss about a $300 game system like a little bitch. :roll: Yeah, go f*ck yourself.
If anyone wants this guys full name/address and email so you can black list him, hit me up via pm. Black Tiger, I highly suggest you post this shit on whatever Sega forum he is posting on that you frequent. The guy does not need to be buying from any sellers there, here, or anywhere.
Per Ebays rules? Post me wining that ebay auction, or that's right uit wasn’t an ebay auction!!!! I pay paled you money and I bought it from you and you ended the auction. Not once did I use eBay. Per eBays rules they were acceptable? Semantics, making an argument to displace the blame from yourself.
You said the games were in acceptable condition. What person would agree that “acceptable” means submerged in water? I would never pull that shit. You got caught and you know it, stop it. Again say what you want about me or my vids but I would never pull that shit on anyone in a trade. I've traded thouasnads of dollars in video games and car parts, never once an issue. You continue to put words in my mouth that I thought they were “MINT VGA SEALED!!!!”. I never said nor thought that, you said fair in your PM’s here, and I though maybe a scratch or maybe even taring but THEY WERE SUBMERGED IN WATER, THEY WERE INA FLOOD!!!
How about you say “Hey dude some of the games were submerged in water.” I woulda respected that and prolly bought them anyway, but you pulled a slimeball move. Not one person on this site would put up with this shit. And now you get all defensive and pull out the eBay hand book and quote scripture like it changes the fact that you consciously and misled me the buyer or any other buyer who would get those games and see they had obvious water damage. No excuse, sorry. With this attitude you are presenting I am positive now that I should have taken the refund but then you would of pawned off the water damaged games on some unsuspecting buyer and blamed them for not understanding that “Fair Condition” was water damage, your cowardice in trying to hide what was obviously water damage is inexcusable and when I call you on it you blame me. I never once said or led you in any way to believe that I was expecting mint games. You just made that up. Look in a mirror dude it’s revolting.
Anyone interested in buying stuff from you will get all the info they need from me, I got a video and pictures to prove it. Passing around peoples information works both ways, I just have evidence to prove it.
Other than that thanks for the DUO, it works great just need an RGB upgrade to fix the S-Video out. I mail it out Monday, I'll PM you the before and after pics, it should be a noticeable improvement.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 06:47:23 PM
Per Ebays rules? Post me wining that ebay auction, or that's right uit wasn’t an ebay auction!!!! I pay paled you money and I bought it from you and you ended the auction. Not once did I use eBay. Per eBays rules they were acceptable? Semantics, making an argument to displace the blame from yourself.
You said the games were in acceptable condition. What person would agree that “acceptable” means submerged in water? I would never pull that shit. You got caught and you know it, stop it. Again say what you want about me or my vids but I would never pull that shit on anyone in a trade. I've traded thouasnads of dollars in video games and car parts, never once an issue. You continue to put words in my mouth that I thought they were “MINT VGA SEALED!!!!”. I never said nor thought that, you said fair in your PM’s here, and I though maybe a scratch or maybe even taring but THEY WERE SUBMERGED IN WATER, THEY WERE INA FLOOD!!!
How about you say “Hey dude some of the games were submerged in water.” I woulda respected that and prolly bought them anyway, but you pulled a slimeball move. Not one person on this site would put up with this shit. And now you get all defensive and pull out the eBay hand book and quote scripture like it changes the fact that you consciously and misled me the buyer or any other buyer who would get those games and see they had obvious water damage. No excuse, sorry. With this attitude you are presenting I am positive now that I should have taken the refund but then you would of pawned off the water damaged games on some unsuspecting buyer and blamed them for not understanding that “Fair Condition” was water damage, your cowardice in trying to hide what was obviously water damage is inexcusable and when I call you on it you blame me. I never once said or led you in any way to believe that I was expecting mint games. You just made that up. Look in a mirror dude it’s revolting.
Anyone interested in buying stuff from you will get all the info they need from me, I got a video and pictures to prove it. Passing around peoples information works both ways, I just have evidence to prove it.
Other than that thanks for the DUO, it works great just need an RGB upgrade to fix the S-Video out. I mail it out Monday, I'll PM you the before and after pics, it should be a noticeable improvement.
You contacted me about an ebay auction and wanted to buy it outside of ebay and have Pc-Genjin 3 included. The system had been removed from the thread and a link to the auction was posted prior to your contacting me. Per the original thread:
As the title states. Duo-R system with s-video out. The system can use the standard RCA AV cables, or the one I am providing which has stereo out and s-video out. System has been region modded. Ave Pad 6 is included.
EDIT: System moved to ebay. Package has been modified to include 9 games and a low starting bid of $334.99. Keith Courage, Legendary Axe, Dungeon Explorer, Red Alert, Side Arms Special, Image Fight II, Psychic Storm, Street Fighter II', and Bomberman 93 are included with the system.
I forgot to mention, as with the other stuff I listed in the other thread, anyone here who wants this can get it for the minimum bid amount shipped in the USA.
That is a very fair deal. I am in the states, could you throw in Pc Genjin 3 for that price? I already have 1 and 2 and would like to see how three works.
Do Turbo Grafx 16 controllers work on this unit? What about the multitaps?
What price? The current auction one? Originally I had the system listed here for 300 shipped with no games, but got no takers so I moved it to ebay and included 9 games with it. I could probably toss in the Japanese Bonk 3 with it, sure. As far as TG16 gamepads go, no, they cant be used unless you buy a cord adapter. A few members sell them here now and then. If you have a turbotap and pads already its best to just buy one cord adapter and use the Turbotap with it and just run all your TG16 controllers into the Tap if you need multiplayer. I think a cord adapter will run you about 15 bucks.
If you plan to purchase it outside of ebay I can do it for $330 shipped for the system and everything you see included in the auction, along with the JP Bonk 3 game. However, this is only if you send the payment via "gift" type method via paypal. This is the method that does not attach fees to the payment. If you intend to send it as a payment for normal goods, then you will need to send $340.16. The paypal fee on $330.00 is $10.16 is why. I ship everything via tracking and fully insured. As far as the power adapter goes, yes it is a more efficient newer "aftermarket" one. The old wall wart types sucked off power off the wall outlet even when the system was off. Newer types like this dont act that way and they dont run as hot, and they provide cleaner power output (older ones, the originals will have hundreds if not thousands of hours placed on them, and general efficiency goes down hill over time and use). As far as failing sound, that is a problem with the black TurboDuo, Pc-Engine Duo, Super Cd Rom 2 add on, and TurboExpress. This is not a problem that affects the white Duo-R or RX systems.
As far as the laser goes, I originally got this system off this forum last summer. At the time I was told it had a new laser installed. I have never had any issues with it, and I have probably put about 40 hours or so into playing it cd wise, and probably 30 hrs of Hu-Card game time put in. When I did the s-video mod to the system everything looked clean and top notch inside, so I have no reason to believe the laser was not replaced along with a general cleaning done. If you planned to purchase the system via ebay then all ebay rules apply, including that you will have to pay shipping cost, and Bonk 3 will not be included. The free shipping and Bonk 3 would be a forum related purchase only. If you intend to nab this I would act soon. It has 8 watchers now and I dont expect it to stay up long due to the low price I set along with the games I included. The last Duo I listed sold in about 4 days time for about $450, and it was not even region modded.
Paypal is the only way I accept payment. I will remove the BIN option on the auction to prevent anyone from snatching it from you before you get a chance to send payment. Give me a min and I will send you a 2nd pm with all the payment info.
Region and S-video modded Duo-R with Ave Pad 6 controller and 10 games. Games are as follows: Keith Courage, Legendary Axe, Dungeon Explorer, Red Alert, Side Arms, Image Fight II, Psychic Storm, Street Fighter II', Bomberman 93, and Pc Genjin 3. Game condition vary from acceptable to very good condition Hu-Card and cd wise.
$330 shipped in the USA. My pp address to send the $330 to is amakusashiroamd@yahoo.com. Send me a pm on here after you make payment so I will know you did and so I can pull the Duo-R system auction. I have removed BIN and will give you some time to send payment, until tomorrow morning. If someone bids a single bid between now and then I can kick the bid and end the auction no problem, however if a bid war of some sort starts then I will not be doing so, so the sooner you pay the better so I can get the auction pulled. I wont pull it however until I have cash in hand, as I have pulled items for people before and then they did not pay wasting my time.
People send me money all the time on there so it helps when it is not ebay related to have some extra info to go on, and I cant remember if PP still lets you attach a message to the gift/money to friends and family thing or not to specify things. If you don't feel comfortable with doing it as a gift related money transfer, and would rather do it for goods, then you will need to cover the paypal fee. To do so you would need to send $340.16. Please keep in mind, this is for shipping in the USA only, and if you pay for the items via "goods", then I will need to ship to the address on your paypal info, so make sure it is all correct when you make payment.
All Duo-R systems are Japanese imports. The only system we got cd wise was the Turbografx CD and the black TurboDuo (which as stated, had bad capacitor issues). CD titles are region free so you don't use the switch for them. There is a region switch located at the hu-card slot that you flip back and forth for either US or Japanese hu-cards. It is a small heavy duty toggle switch. Once you open the Hu-Card lid it is easy to spot. Sorry that it is hard to see in the pics. It is hard to get up close shots of the system without the flash causing extreme glare off the white plastic, so I kind of had to back away from the system when I took pics.
and after that you sent payment and a confirmation info that you did the such.
You know this, and I have no reason to modify the original pms concerning this. I can have anyone I know here log into my account and confirm our pms. and regardless of your over all stupidity, I offered you a refund anyway for the difference concerning the games upon their return. It was your choice to choose not to because you know that you got 10 great to fun games for $30. It had nothing to do with protecting anyone from anything. I mean seriously, do you think that your choice to be a dick and toss the system about and drop it on video to show how much of a drama whore you are is protecting other buyers from me also? In what reality could this be considered consumer protection.
If you were concerned about the conditions of said items you would not be freely tossing about and dropping your $300 game system. Basically this was a $330 set of troll post for you. I guess just because you are from the same state as Nintega you feel you have to one up him and the jackassery he attempted on Nat though, huh? Pushing the envelope and all that shit ehh? I got news for you, if you have to invest that much money in order to pull off what you think is a successful troll, you are the most retarded f*ck I have ever laid eyes upon, but still behind Dave/Nintenga. People already know you're a moronic poser/low quality forum troll. You didn't have to go out of your way to confirm it on video for us today.
The video of you being a jackass has been saved and filed away. If you remove it it will be re-uploaded with your forum info, private info, and attached along with links to this thread. You have been added to the black list on Digital Press also, and the post concerning you has been linked to this thread. I know a few people on the Neo forums so I will contact them privately and let them know about this incident.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
You contacted me about an ebay auction and wanted to buy it outside of ebay and have Pc-Genjin 3 included. The system had been removed from the thread and a link to the auction was posted prior to your contacting me. Per the original thread:
As the title states. Duo-R system with s-video out. The system can use the standard RCA AV cables, or the one I am providing which has stereo out and s-video out. System has been region modded. Ave Pad 6 is included.
EDIT: System moved to ebay. Package has been modified to include 9 games and a low starting bid of $334.99. Keith Courage, Legendary Axe, Dungeon Explorer, Red Alert, Side Arms Special, Image Fight II, Psychic Storm, Street Fighter II', and Bomberman 93 are included with the system.
I forgot to mention, as with the other stuff I listed in the other thread, anyone here who wants this can get it for the minimum bid amount shipped in the USA.
That is a very fair deal. I am in the states, could you throw in Pc Genjin 3 for that price? I already have 1 and 2 and would like to see how three works.
Do Turbo Grafx 16 controllers work on this unit? What about the multitaps?
What price? The current auction one? Originally I had the system listed here for 300 shipped with no games, but got no takers so I moved it to ebay and included 9 games with it. I could probably toss in the Japanese Bonk 3 with it, sure. As far as TG16 gamepads go, no, they cant be used unless you buy a cord adapter. A few members sell them here now and then. If you have a turbotap and pads already its best to just buy one cord adapter and use the Turbotap with it and just run all your TG16 controllers into the Tap if you need multiplayer. I think a cord adapter will run you about 15 bucks.
If you plan to purchase it outside of ebay I can do it for $330 shipped for the system and everything you see included in the auction, along with the JP Bonk 3 game. However, this is only if you send the payment via "gift" type method via paypal. This is the method that does not attach fees to the payment. If you intend to send it as a payment for normal goods, then you will need to send $340.16. The paypal fee on $330.00 is $10.16 is why. I ship everything via tracking and fully insured. As far as the power adapter goes, yes it is a more efficient newer "aftermarket" one. The old wall wart types sucked off power off the wall outlet even when the system was off. Newer types like this dont act that way and they dont run as hot, and they provide cleaner power output (older ones, the originals will have hundreds if not thousands of hours placed on them, and general efficiency goes down hill over time and use). As far as failing sound, that is a problem with the black TurboDuo, Pc-Engine Duo, Super Cd Rom 2 add on, and TurboExpress. This is not a problem that affects the white Duo-R or RX systems.
As far as the laser goes, I originally got this system off this forum last summer. At the time I was told it had a new laser installed. I have never had any issues with it, and I have probably put about 40 hours or so into playing it cd wise, and probably 30 hrs of Hu-Card game time put in. When I did the s-video mod to the system everything looked clean and top notch inside, so I have no reason to believe the laser was not replaced along with a general cleaning done. If you planned to purchase the system via ebay then all ebay rules apply, including that you will have to pay shipping cost, and Bonk 3 will not be included. The free shipping and Bonk 3 would be a forum related purchase only. If you intend to nab this I would act soon. It has 8 watchers now and I dont expect it to stay up long due to the low price I set along with the games I included. The last Duo I listed sold in about 4 days time for about $450, and it was not even region modded.
Paypal is the only way I accept payment. I will remove the BIN option on the auction to prevent anyone from snatching it from you before you get a chance to send payment. Give me a min and I will send you a 2nd pm with all the payment info.
Region and S-video modded Duo-R with Ave Pad 6 controller and 10 games. Games are as follows: Keith Courage, Legendary Axe, Dungeon Explorer, Red Alert, Side Arms, Image Fight II, Psychic Storm, Street Fighter II', Bomberman 93, and Pc Genjin 3. Game condition vary from acceptable to very good condition Hu-Card and cd wise.
$330 shipped in the USA. My pp address to send the $330 to is amakusashiroamd@yahoo.com. Send me a pm on here after you make payment so I will know you did and so I can pull the Duo-R system auction. I have removed BIN and will give you some time to send payment, until tomorrow morning. If someone bids a single bid between now and then I can kick the bid and end the auction no problem, however if a bid war of some sort starts then I will not be doing so, so the sooner you pay the better so I can get the auction pulled. I wont pull it however until I have cash in hand, as I have pulled items for people before and then they did not pay wasting my time.
People send me money all the time on there so it helps when it is not ebay related to have some extra info to go on, and I cant remember if PP still lets you attach a message to the gift/money to friends and family thing or not to specify things. If you don't feel comfortable with doing it as a gift related money transfer, and would rather do it for goods, then you will need to cover the paypal fee. To do so you would need to send $340.16. Please keep in mind, this is for shipping in the USA only, and if you pay for the items via "goods", then I will need to ship to the address on your paypal info, so make sure it is all correct when you make payment.
All Duo-R systems are Japanese imports. The only system we got cd wise was the Turbografx CD and the black TurboDuo (which as stated, had bad capacitor issues). CD titles are region free so you don't use the switch for them. There is a region switch located at the hu-card slot that you flip back and forth for either US or Japanese hu-cards. It is a small heavy duty toggle switch. Once you open the Hu-Card lid it is easy to spot. Sorry that it is hard to see in the pics. It is hard to get up close shots of the system without the flash causing extreme glare off the white plastic, so I kind of had to back away from the system when I took pics.
and after that you sent payment and a confirmation info that you did the such.
You know this, and I have no reason to modify the original pms concerning this. I can have anyone I know here log into my account and confirm our pms. and regardless of your over all stupidity, I offered you a refund anyway for the difference concerning the games upon their return. It was your choice to choose not to because you know that you got 10 great to fun games for $30. It had nothing to do with protecting anyone from anything. I mean seriously, do you think that your choice to be a dick and toss the system about and drop it on video to show how much of a drama whore you are is protecting other buyers from me also? In what reality could this be considered consumer protection.
If you were concerned about the conditions of said items you would not be freely tossing about and dropping your $300 game system. Basically this was a $330 set of troll post for you. I guess just because you are from the same state as Nintega you feel you have to one up him and the jackassery he attempted on Nat though, huh? Pushing the envelope and all that shit ehh? I got news for you, if you have to invest that much money in order to pull off what you think is a successful troll, you are the most retarded f*ck I have ever laid eyes upon, but still behind Dave/Nintenga. People already know you're a moronic poser/low quality forum troll. You didn't have to go out of your way to confirm it on video for us today.
The video of you being a jackass has been saved and filed away. If you remove it it will be re-uploaded with your forum info, private info, and attached along with links to this thread. You have been added to the black list on Digital Press also, and the post concerning you has been linked to this thread. I know a few people on the Neo forums so I will contact them privately and let them know about this incident.
Again, I DIDN’T BUY IT THROUGH EBAY!!! Even if I did it’ wouldn’t matter. “Acceptable” condition does not mean “Survivied a flood but I won’t tell the buyer and if he says anything I’ll quote eBay jargon stating that flood damage is acceptable.”
Stop it. You are wrong.
I don’t know who “Nintenga” is nor do I understand you rant about “One up” BS you are sir are crazy. You seem to be very mad at the internet and are taking it out on me. You take this shit way too seriously and it shows. This isn’t real life, these are antique video games. I play them and enjoy them and you think I am handling a Picasso, it’s embarrassing on your part. You flip your shit when I flip a Turbo Duo R like I committed a crime, this has to be an act on your part this cannot be real.
Contacting Neo Geo forums about what incident? Digital press? Who gives a shit, just don’t tell my mom OK because I don’t wana be grounded. Keep telling yourself it’s OK to sell water damaged games as acceptable. I have the video, it will stay up there in “who gives a shit land” where people like you cannot tell the difference between real life and the internet. i don't get that many views an I just have fun with it, you it's like life and death. I also have your info I can post the same if you want to go that route. You boxed and sent me a very nice turbo duo that needs to have the A/V upgraded and some games that were water damaged; deal with it.
I should just post pics of the water damage and again let people know what you did. Nice try, trying to flop the blame on me, it’s in my un-boxing video. I have never met such a deluded individual, I at least know not to lie to people and then blame them for “Acceptable” goods.
Shame….
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 07:14:43 PM
Just to state, per the above, anyone can see I never used the word "fair" concerning the condition of anything in the pm's, nor did he even ever, not one single time, ask for specifics regarding games condition. Before sending me payment I sent him a total due and even stated the condition the auction had stated. Multiple times it was stated this was listed on auction with the games, I referred to the auction often, and linked to it in the thread, so he clearly knew this, along with where to look for item condition specifics and pics.
Let this be a lesson to this forum. If you see someone join here that you know for a fact has been a little bitch on other forums, you should be stating the such publicly so people are made aware. Not doing so will have repercussions down the road that you will never be able to predict.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 07:21:02 PM
Just to state, per the above, anyone can see I never used the word "fair" concerning the condition of anything in the pm's, nor did he even ever, not one single time, ask for specifics regarding games condition. Before sending me payment I sent him a total due and even stated the condition the auction had stated. Multiple times it was stated this was listed on auction with the games, I referred to the auction often, and linked to it in the thread, so he clearly knew this, along with where to look for item condition specifics and pics.
Let this be a lesson to this forum. If you see someone join here that you know for a fact has been a little bitch on other forums, you should be stating the such publicly so people are made aware. Not doing so will have repercussions down the road that you will never be able to predict.
Yes let this be a lesson, according to ProfessorProfessorson, if you don't ask if the games have water damage, it's your fault. Acceptable means "WATER DAMAGED".
You said acceptable. Does that mean water damaged as you ADMITTED and NEGLECTED TO TELL ME UNTIL I FOUND OUT AFTER I OPENED THE BOX AND FOUND THEM DAMAGED!!!!
Simple YES or NO.
Am I supposed to ask, OH HEY BEFORE YOU SEND ME THE GAMES CAN YOU TELL ME IF THEY WERE IN A MASSIVE FLOOD AND IF THEY HAD WATER DAMAGE!!' It's my fault for not asking if your "ACCEPTABLE" games means that they WERE IN A FLOOD!!! I believed your LIE.
Show me ANYWHERE in your PM's where you said, "Oh hey BTW, these games are WATER DAMAGED!!!" Where is that? I have all the PM;s as well. Not an eBay action, sorry.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 07:23:45 PM
Also I am looking up this "Nintenga" fellow, he better be as bad to make him out to be to make you this nuts.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ccovell on June 06, 2013, 07:29:56 PM
Get a room, you two. The rest of us left this thread a long time ago.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 07:39:12 PM
Just to state, per the above, anyone can see I never used the word "fair" concerning the condition of anything in the pm's, nor did he even ever, not one single time, ask for specifics regarding games condition. Before sending me payment I sent him a total due and even stated the condition the auction had stated. Multiple times it was stated this was listed on auction with the games, I referred to the auction often, and linked to it in the thread, so he clearly knew this, along with where to look for item condition specifics and pics.
Let this be a lesson to this forum. If you see someone join here that you know for a fact has been a little bitch on other forums, you should be stating the such publicly so people are made aware. Not doing so will have repercussions down the road that you will never be able to predict.
You said acceptable. Does that mean water damaged as you ADMITTED and NEGLECTED TO TELL ME UNTIL I FOUND OUT.
Simple YES or NO.
"Acceptable" per ebay means I didn't even have to give you manuals or cases, per ebays own details concerning this. "Acceptable" means expect the worse condition possible more likely then not, but that the items works as it should. It specifically stated boxes, manuals, etc may not be included, and if they are, to expect damage. Stop feigning stupidity on this. No one here is going to buy into your delusional behavior and claims of being a victim. I received all of those games from multiple parties on this forum. I don't know the exact history of every item, nor would I presume to know the such and try to chronicle it on a ebay auction in a detailed listing covering 20 years of activity or damage per game.
Have you ever actually seen a seller state "Ahh yes, the grape jelly stain you see on the far left corner of the cd insert was from 2001 and was placed there by Mark Johnson of New York one lazy sunday when he sat down to enjoy a PB and J?" Or "Oh hey btw all the damage you obviously see is obvious damage yo, so even though you clearly see damage to the games cases brah and see I listed the stuff as acceptable I wanted to say for the 30th time that there is damage and detail when it all occurred yo"
Basically you are asking me to make believe and post a detailed history I know nothing about, which I am not obliged to do. Two manuals clearly had water damage, Psychic Storms and Image Fight II (actually I assumed IF II had something else going on as the manual was covered in clear tape and the pages were sticky), resulting in "acceptable". The games worked fully and the actual disc condition averaged from good to very good. The manuals damaged or being missing like in the case with half the games did not affect the games actual performance, did it?
I got the Psychic Storm from Bernie. If you want to know the detailed history of it prior to him sending it to me, send him a pm so he can lol and tell you to f*ck off. Any other game you are just SOL on because I bought games from multiple parties on ebay, locally, etc, and I am not obliged to hand over other sellers info so you can meet your troll quota for the month. At the end of the day, regardless of all of this, you were offered a full refund for the difference concerning the games upon their return. You declined this offer and asked me to keep you in mind for future sales. This is totally on you. Any reasonable person can see that.
Ccovell, you don't like it, don't read it. I am not obliged to sit by and let anyone libel me on any thread. If you expect me to, you can f*ck off.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 07:57:07 PM
Dude, seriously calm down. At this point maybe PM's would better suit you before you allow this obvious melt down further damage your character.
Let's see, you said Libel, what does that mean exactly I wonder. Well Webster says the following...
"A libel is a malicious, false statement in written media, a broadcast, or otherwise published words."
Well you sent me games by your own admission as "Water Damaged" yet you neglected to tell me they were water damaged. So through that Libel B.S out the window, already screen caped your admission so there's that. You pointed out eBay's rules (BTW Ebay is not a ruling party but the Gov't, the Federal, local, and State courts are) that stated the games are acceptable. I reminded you that this was NOT an ebay action yet you keep lying that it was. I get water damaged games and tell you and you say the games were in "Acceptable condition" and then like a kid caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar you began to make excuses and hid behind eBays auction rules which again is ridiculous as eBay had nothing to do with this transaction.
You are so full of shit it should be coming out of your ears. Again, bash me all you want, comment my You Tube vids that I am a terrible person and I PROMISE I won't delete a single one or delete my video of flipping a Duo R (which really pissed you off, I mean way more then I thought it would, a scary "kill me in my sleep" amount, remind me to never question your PCE loyalty), who gives a shit about that, it means nothing.
You need to calm down, step back, admit you sent me flood damaged games you yourself described as "ACCEPTABLE", lied about it (omitting that the games were in flood is lying by omission), hid behind an eBay policy that has ZERO influence on reality as this was not an eBay action, and just realize that yes you can be wrong, you can error. I make errors every day. You said I made an error when i didn't SPECIFICALLY ask you if the games were flood damaged so it is my fault not asking. I would feel bad for you if this weren't so pathetic.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 08:57:25 PM
Well you sent me games by your own admission as "Water Damaged" yet you neglected to tell me they were water damaged. You pointed out eBay's rules (BTW Ebay is not a ruling party or Gov't, the Federal, local, and State courts however are) that stated the games are acceptable.
I pointd out ebays rules because the games were never listed on the thread here, were they? They were only listed on the auction. Had I not linked to said auction, you would not have contacted me about the system and games, correct? A simple YES, or NO will do.
I reminded you that this was NOT an ebay action yet you keep lying that it was. I get water damaged games and you apologize and then like a kid caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar you began to make excuses and hid behind eBays auction rules.
I never said you purchased the item via ebay, did I? If I did, please quote the specific sentence where I stated the such. I did however relate that many times this sale was due to you contacting me via this forum about the auction. The proof of such is in your initial pms. You can not deny the such.
You are so full of shit it should be coming out of your ears.
All the above pm's prove quite the contrary. 1. I posted the item was moved to ebay, included 9 games, and gave a auction link. 2. Auction link specifically stated all items tested and working, and that the games condition varied from acceptable to very good. 3. You contacted me about said auction via pm and asked if I would include Pc Genjin 3 in the deal. 4. I replied to every pm you sent, and answered every single question you had asked. The proof of such is documented above for anyone to see. 5. In all of these pm's PRIOR to making payment you not once asked for specifics concerning the games condition, even though you had viewed the auction and saw from the pics manuals were missing, damaged, etc and that the games including in the lot, that the condition was listed. Had you asked for more details, I would have gone into as much specifics as I could concerning the items, including sending you individual pics. Otherwise the auction description did the work for me as is. 6. You ignored all of this, out of ignorance, or in the hopes of attempting to complain later down the road to try and ring a partial refund and get free shit maybe? 7. When you contacted me about your issue I did what any reasonable seller would do, I offered you a refund concerning the games the evening you contacted me. The proof of doing so is posted above, along with you turning the offer down. Scammers don't offer refunds (scammers are usually the ones complaining then turning down refund offers when requested to return items). And good sellers are not obliged to do so when shitty buyers f*ck up and the problem is solely on them, but I did it anyway. 8. You turned the refund down, said it was a hell of a deal, you were very satisfied blah blah blah. 8. You asked me to keep you in mind for future sales. 9. Weeks later you chose to troll the forums with delusions of grandeur. You got your rep here curb stomped for it. 10. Realizing this, your only way to lash out now is libel the seller you got your Duo-R from, and to post a video of you treating it like shit. At least when the thing stops working I wont have to sweat you lying and saying it was due to me. I will have a record of you proving otherwise. Thanks for doing my work for me.
In all, you ask me to calm down? Who are you trying to convince here, you or me? You are the one going to such extremes to lash out against this forum over your own foolishness that you are even willing to trash your own $300 purchases. Trust me, if I wasn't calm right now there is no way I'd have been able to post all the above. I would have been too busy going into a profanity laden frenzy calling you everything under the sun. Instead I would rather let the prior pm's concerning the transaction speak for themselves, at which they do in great detail.
Again, bash me all you want, comment my You Tube vids I PROMISE I won't delete a single one or delete my video of flipping a Duo R, who gives a shit about that, it means nothing. You need to calm down, step back, admit you sent me flood damaged games you yourself described as "ACCEPTABLE", lied about it, hid behind an eBay policy that has ZERO influence on reality as this was not an eBay action, and just realize that yes you can be wrong, you can error. I make errors every day. You said I made an error when i didn't SPECIFICALLY ask you if the games were flood damaged so it is my fault not asking. I would feel bad for you if this weren't so pathetic.
The reasons you have gotten so much flak are legit, and yes, I regret selling to you. So much so that this will be the last deal I handle concerning this forum outside of parties I know personally. So basically on any future forum sale, when anyone I dont know ask about buying a item, I will decline their offer and refer to the "EvilEvoIX incident" and link to this. You wanted to whore yourself out for any kind of attention you could get. Well this is what you get. Like it or lump it. I never lied about anything. The auction was detailed and had pics. If you wanted more details then that, when you contacted me about said auction YOU YOURSELF VIEWED, you had every opportunity to ask, and never did. You had no problems asking any other questions.
You don't like that I told you how it is when you had issues, fine, your problem, not mine. You clearly didn't like it when I asked you to return the games for a refund, otherwise you would have thanked me for offering it to you. Regardless, again, you were offered a full refund concerning the games, and YOU DECLINED IT. It is not like I lied to you and said everything was mint and complete prior to the sell either. Quite the contrary. The auction said the games had issues, pics were provided, and I referenced the such in the pms to you prior to accepting your payment. Bitching just for the sake of doing so weeks later after you got your ass handed to you here for unrelated issues just makes you that much more the little bitch you are.
You want to go on whining about how you feel you were sold a game (Psychic Storm) possibly exposed to a flood, go contact Bernie and ask him if it was. I wouldn't know, I am not the original owner. All I know is all the games you got, the actual games themselves, disc and hucard, were tested and fully worked. To add to that the worst condition disc scratch wise was Red Alert. The other disc and the hucards all looked pretty good. The cd's did not have any bronzing, paint flaking, or "ROT" on them making me suspect they were subjected to flood, nuclear attack, extended exposure to sunlight or otherwise. Sometimes when a case or manual has water damage it is simply due to a$$holes like you spilling shit on them. You are reaching pretty far there with the "flood" remarks.
I got Psychic Storm from Bernie in that exact condition you got it in. He would maybe know more then me about its history, but again, he doesn't owe you any explanation, and he probably got it in that condition also. Gamer condition games get passed around often. Deal with it. Don't be surprised when he tells you to simply f*ck off if you ask. I consider this matter closed, just as I did initially when you declined my refund offer. Your continued endless complaining about issues already addressed just shows how much of a little bitch troll you are and how you will dig deep for any reason to justify you're trolling. And f*ck all to the fact how you obviously will never be pleased with anything you bought because you don't respect the shit to begin with. You don't belong here. For that matter, you clearly dont belong anywhere poser.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 09:33:23 PM
Well you sent me games by your own admission as "Water Damaged" yet you neglected to tell me they were water damaged. You pointed out eBay's rules (BTW Ebay is not a ruling party or Gov't, the Federal, local, and State courts however are) that stated the games are acceptable.
I pointed out ebays rules because the games were never listed on the thread here, were they? They were only listed on the auction. Had I not linked to said auction, you would not have contacted me about the system and games, correct? A simple YES, or NO will do.
I reminded you that this was NOT an ebay action yet you keep lying that it was. I get water damaged games and you apologize and then like a kid caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar you began to make excuses and hid behind eBays auction rules.
I never said you purchased the item via ebay, did I? If I did, please quote the specific sentence where I stated the such. I did however relate that many times this sale was due to you contacting me via this forum about the auction. The proof of such is in your initial pms. You can not deny the such.
You are so full of shit it should be coming out of your ears.
All the above pm's prove quite the contrary. 1. I posted the item was moved to ebay, included 9 games, and gave a auction link. 2. Auction link specifically stated all items tested and working, and that the games condition varied from acceptable to very good. 3. You contacted me about said auction via pm and asked if I would include Pc Genjin 3 in the deal. 4. I replied to every pm you sent, and answered every single question you had asked. The proof of such is documented above for anyone to see. 5. In all of these pm's PRIOR to making payment you not once asked for specifics concerning the games condition, even though you had viewed the auction and saw from the pics manuals were missing, damaged, etc and that the games including in the lot, that the condition was listed. Had you asked for more details, I would have gone into as much specifics as I could concerning the items, including sending you individual pics. Otherwise the auction description did the work for me as is. 6. You ignored all of this, out of ignorance, or in the hopes of attempting to complain later down the road to try and ring a partial refund and get free shit maybe? 7. When you contacted me about your issue I did what any reasonable seller would do, I offered you a refund concerning the games the evening you contacted me. The proof of doing so is posted above, along with you turning the offer down. Scammers don't offer refunds (scammers are usually the ones complaining then turning down refund offers when requested to return items). And good sellers are not obliged to do so when shitty buyers f*ck up and the problem is solely on them, but I did it anyway. 8. You turned the refund down, said it was a hell of a deal, you were very satisfied blah blah blah. 8. You asked me to keep you in mind for future sales. 9. Weeks later you chose to troll the forums with delusions of grandeur. You got your rep here curb stomped for it. 10. Realizing this, your only way to lash out now is libel the seller you got your Duo-R from, and to post a video of you treating it like shit. At least when the thing stops working I wont have to sweat you lying and saying it was due to me. I will have a record of you proving otherwise. Thanks for doing my work for me.
In all, you ask me to calm down? Who are you trying to convince here, you or me? You are the one going to such extremes to lash out against this forum over your own foolishness that you are even willing to trash your own $300 purchases. Trust me, if I wasn't calm right now there is no way I'd have been able to post all the above. I would have been too busy going into a profanity laden frenzy calling you everything under the sun. Instead I would rather let the prior pm's concerning the transaction speak for themselves, at which they do in great detail.
Again, bash me all you want, comment my You Tube vids I PROMISE I won't delete a single one or delete my video of flipping a Duo R, who gives a shit about that, it means nothing. You need to calm down, step back, admit you sent me flood damaged games you yourself described as "ACCEPTABLE", lied about it, hid behind an eBay policy that has ZERO influence on reality as this was not an eBay action, and just realize that yes you can be wrong, you can error. I make errors every day. You said I made an error when i didn't SPECIFICALLY ask you if the games were flood damaged so it is my fault not asking. I would feel bad for you if this weren't so pathetic.
The reasons you have gotten so much flak are legit, and yes, I regret selling to you. So much so that this will be the last deal I handle concerning this forum outside of parties I know personally. So basically on any future forum sale, when anyone I dont know ask about buying a item, I will decline their offer and refer to the "EvilEvoIX incident" and link to this. You wanted to whore yourself out for any kind of attention you could get. Well this is what you get. Like it or lump it. I never lied about anything. The auction was detailed and had pics. If you wanted more details then that, when you contacted me about said auction YOU YOURSELF VIEWED, you had every opportunity to ask, and never did. You had no problems asking any other questions.
You don't like that I told you how it is when you had issues, fine, your problem, not mine. You clearly didn't like it when I asked you to return the games for a refund, otherwise you would have thanked me for offering it to you. Regardless, again, you were offered a full refund concerning the games, and YOU DECLINED IT. It is not like I lied to you and said everything was mint and complete prior to the sell either. Quite the contrary. The auction said the games had issues, pics were provided, and I referenced the such in the pms to you prior to accepting your payment. Bitching just for the sake of doing so weeks later after you got your ass handed to you here for unrelated issues just makes you that much more the little bitch you are.
You want to go on whining about how you feel you were sold a game (Psychic Storm) possibly exposed to a flood, go contact Bernie and ask him if it was. I wouldn't know, I am not the original owner. All I know is all the games you got, the actual games themselves, disc and hucard, were tested and fully worked. To add to that the worst condition disc scratch wise was Red Alert. The other disc and the hucards all looked pretty good. The cd's did not have any bronzing, paint flaking, or "ROT" on them making me suspect they were subjected to flood, nuclear attack, extended exposure to sunlight or otherwise. Sometimes when a case or manual has water damage it is simply due to a$$holes like you spilling shit on them. You are reaching pretty far there with the "flood" remarks.
I got Psychic Storm from Bernie in that exact condition you got it in. He would maybe know more then me about its history, but again, he doesn't owe you any explanation, and he probably got it in that condition also. Gamer condition games get passed around often. Deal with it. Don't be surprised when he tells you to simply f*ck off if you ask. I consider this matter closed, just as I did initially when you declined my refund offer. Your continued endless complaining about issues already addressed just shows how much of a little bitch troll you are and how you will dig deep for any reason to justify you're trolling. And f*ck all to the fact how you obviously will never be pleased with anything you bought because you don't respect the shit to begin with. You don't belong here. For that matter, you clearly dont belong anywhere poser.
Pointing out ebays rules are pointless as this was not, repeat, NOT an ebay transaction. Why do you keep harping on eBay rules? Again eBay is not a ruling party. Ask anyone on this site, ask them if they are buying “Acceptable” condition games if that means water damage? It was submerged it was so bad. And then you so arrogantly stated that it was my fault for not asking if they were flood damaged, downright devious on your part. That isn’t something you can just gloss over, that shit sticks and will stick.
Game conditions were Acceptable to Very good. Should have read “Water damaged from being submerged under water to very good. Again when I pointed it out you said by ebays rules they were acceptable, you are full of shit. I would NEVER try to get free shit out of anyone, I mean you think I am trying to blackmail you now? Insanity. What is more insane you are now blaming the damage on another member and ask me to contact them? Business is not done that way, you cannot just give the ownership of an item you sold back to the original seller and just shift blame. You cannot accept responsibility, it’s downright delusional the fraudulent mind you have working between your ears and nothing you have posted has led anything to the contrary.
You are blaming ME for not asking YOU if the games were flood damaged? You asked me to send you straight Pay Pal cash and to trust you, I didn’t thank god. You then wanted me to trust you on the condition of acceptable games that were horribly flood damage, there is no way to spin this, no way out but the truth. You are saying I am a shitty buyer, I paid you and you sent me damaged goods, explain that please? Blaming me for damaged goods, blaming other members, you just can't stop lying and misleading.
YOU DIDN’T TELL ME, YOU HID THE TRUTH, YOU LIED!!!!! No one would put up with this bullshit, just no one. Thank god you are cutting out your services with most members god forbid they get more "Acceptable" games from you.
Let's recap...
1. I inquired about the Turbo Duo R for sale 2. You stated that the Turbo Duo R and games were in "Acceptable to Very Good Condition" 3. I get the games and some of them look like they were taken to a water park 4. I tell you and instead of saying sorry or you mislead me you quote eBay rules of what is acceptable and say that you are not responsible 5. You then state I need to contact the guy who had the game before you 6. You demanded respect for being one of the first people to make an S-Video out for a CDX (Just use a Scart lead and SCART to component :clap:) 7. You get all butt hurt about me holding the precious Duo R in my un-boxing video, the very same one that shows the water damage which you WILLFULLY NEGLECTED TO MENTION (AKA Liar) 8. I will do as I wish with my Turbo Duo R, first thing is to get rid of the S-video and get it to RGB. 9. I made a new video of me juggling the Duo R and you flipped your shit more, I can't tell if your kidding or not this has to be a joke. 10. You refuse to even admit that you should have at least told me that they were water damaged, I would never in a million years forget to mention that a game had been submerged under water.
That said you don't have a leg to stand on. After I got these damaged games I decided to just move on, post nice things as to not leave a pot boiling and just move on. But here you are on full boil, a self proclaimed video game expert who decides who is a real gamer and who is a poseur :lol: . Then starts naming some other You Tube guys who piss them off and we've already gone way passed what is on my pay no mind list. You obviously take yourself way too seriously. Buy not serious enough to believe that I wouldn't notice some very damaged games, and obviously thinking you could pass the blame on anyone but yourself is a sure sign of delusions of grandeur.
You sir are a liar and a sociopath and sell damaged games as “Acceptable”. I have the pics and the f*cking un-boxing to prove it. Water damaged. Nice try.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 10:02:21 PM
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 10:11:33 PM
It doesn't explain why you are a liar? It doesn't explain why you omitted what is an obvious important bit of information like water damaged games? I tried to be nice, I tried to walk away and just take the damaged games and be nice, but you couldn't let things go, and now people know.
Is that all you found on twitter? Gosh I've posted much worse than that (not as bad as Jim Norton, Sarah Silverman, Louie C.K., Anthony Cumia, Patrice O'Neil however, their comedy is far more intricate and evil than even I can muster.) Keep posting my twitter links and YouTube vids, I need all the followers I can get. Check out Amy Schumer and listen to Opie and Anthony. You should follow based upon the re-tweets of comic genius alone. Like I said, I know who I am, I never hid that, you, you hide behind a wall of lies and bullshit that is beginning to trip you up.
I would never sell a damaged game as acceptable, you did. That is sacrilege.
https://twitter.com/EvilEvoIX
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 10:29:59 PM
I would never sell a damaged game as acceptable, you did. That is sacrilege.
So the games themselves are damaged and now suddenly don't work? Funny how that story of yours evolves and becomes more convoluted as you go. First it was the manuals and cases, now its the games themselves. :wink: At any rate, adding more of your info over to your thread in FS. I like how you rejoined the Neo forums and lied about your location on your profile id so you could continue to buy more shit. :wink: BTW racist, you smack any black girls in the face lately with your belt? Oh wait, thats totally funny and totally not racist when you say it. :roll:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 10:36:30 PM
I would never sell a damaged game as acceptable, you did. That is sacrilege.
So the games themselves are damaged and now suddenly don't work? Funny how that story of yours evolves and becomes more convoluted as you go. First it was the manuals and cases, now its the games themselves. :wink: At any rate, adding more of your info over to your thread in FS. I like how you rejoined the Neo forums and lied about your location on your profile id so you could continue to buy more shit. :wink: BTW racist, you smack any black girls in the face lately with your belt? Oh wait, thats totally funny and totally not racist when you say it. :roll:
So I guess you just aren't going to admit you purposely neglected to tell me that they were water damaged? You keep forgetting I have all your info as well, silly how that is. People will know about you soon with pics don't you worry.
I also guess every comedian on the face of the planet is racist, Daniel Tosh and Family Guy and Richard Pryor they are all racists?
Have I ever hit a black girl in the face? Are you seriously asking that? No, that was a Re-tweet from Anthony Cumia, not my post so um yeah while you are frothing at the mouth grasping at straws you neglected to understand what a "Re-tweet" is. Nice try but once again sub par.
Oh when I joined Neo Geo Forums I pretended to be you, I lied and acted like an elitist gaming poser and they believed I was you, got me stacks of carts too.
Thanks again for my water soaked games, others will know what you did don't worry ;)
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 10:40:19 PM
Oh wait, even better, you were banned from the Neo forums after being exposed for being a pedophile. How interesting....
Guess I will have my friend drop their admin a pm letting them know your new id and info. Hows that for the attention you wanted so badly? :wink:
I was a Paroled Pedophile. I'm reformed I promise ;) That admin and I know each others names quite well by now. Rot however is a man among men, but you wouldn't have a clue what a man is. I haven't the foggiest what you are trying to accomplish? Rep? From who people like you? Your rep is shit as you mislead buyers into deals you know are damaged. All my info is out there, anyone can post what they want, people are free to do what they want, I guess you are trying to get me banned from buying games? From who? eBay? Craigslist? I think your head is so big you think you control the internet. You don't
Damaged games....water damage....keep changing the subject.
Well I gotta get ready for work, you know get back to real life. Do what ever you think you need to do, I'll just keep doing what I do.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
You are a dumb motherucker man, really dumb. Keep trying :)
Lemy know if you need anything else explained to you, like water damage and acceptable :dance:
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 11:24:25 PM
You sound angry. You need to chill out bro. We don't need some guy going postal, killing jews and raping kids, then blaming some comedian for everything he does or says, now do we?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 06, 2013, 11:25:41 PM
Beaten at my own game........ I should have known to mess with you. Thanks again for the Duo R however, I'll send you pics of the updated RGB bits and the updated visuals.
Comedy is a reflection of society, nobody goes to a comedy event and goes out and rapes women, it just doesn't happen. It's just a mirror of society and the funny part is the exhaust of society. You are not going to go blame Sarah now if the 3rd Reich rises again will you?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 06, 2013, 11:35:34 PM
Thought you had work today, and yet here you are posting still lol. What happened, you realize school was out and there wasn't going to be any kids hanging around at the playground for you to show your special NeoGeo stick to?
Lest anyone from another site ends up lurking here and wants to know more about umiami80 aka EvilEvoIX aka Neo Yahtzee: http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14790.0 (members only, you will need to sign up)
Smartest thing you've said since you joined. Wiser words have never been spoken (in the past hour anyway).
I forgot to post this earlier, concerning something you couldn't be bothered with doing while you go on insisting I lied about the condition of the items:
Like what is viewed there pedobrah, you obviously viewed the auction, all you had to do was scroll down, read the details, and view the pics. I think you did. You are acting like you had no idea what the condition of the items were in, but it was listed both in the typed auction details and a detailed auction pic, and you contacted me specifically about the items listed for sale in the auction sale. Given your rather seedy forum history I am fairly sure you had every intention of trying to scam me until I offered a refund upon return of the games.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 07, 2013, 02:59:47 AM
You sir are a liar and a sociopath and sell damaged games as “Acceptable”. I have the pics and the f*cking un-boxing to prove it. Water damaged. Nice try.
I can't believe I'm defending a jerk, but...
According to eBay: "Acceptable An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included."
Looks to me like if the games worked, they are "acceptable". The only category I can imagine below "Acceptable" is "non-working". Basically, "acceptable" condition means the game works, but no guarantees as to the condition otherwise. On eBay's condition scale for media, "acceptable" is the lowest level of condition that includes the stipulation that the item in question still functions. If there's water damage to the manual but the game works, it qualifies as acceptable.
If the seller doesn't post evidence, photographic or descriptive, as to why as item is only "acceptable" and not better, it is the responsibility of the buyer to inquire to find out more details. Caveat Emptor. He gave an ACCURATE condition rating, going by eBay's condition scale.
I would have been irritated to discover undisclosed water damage, but it isn't fraud and it isn't lying. It is my fault for not inquiring WHY some of the items are only "acceptable" and not better. Sounds to me like you were over-eager to get a deal and didn't do your due diligence. If the games didn't work, then that would be fraud and lying, but since they worked, they met the burden of "acceptable". And even if you didn't actually buy the stuff on eBay, you were relying on the eBay description. It's always easier to blame others for not giving you enough information instead of looking inward to ask yourself, "Why didn't I ask enough questions?"
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 03:06:20 AM
You sir are a liar and a sociopath and sell damaged games as “Acceptable”. I have the pics and the f*cking un-boxing to prove it. Water damaged. Nice try.
I can't believe I'm defending a jerk, but...
According to eBay: "Acceptable An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included."
Looks to me like if the games worked, they are "acceptable". The only category I can imagine below "Acceptable" is "non-working". Basically, "acceptable" condition means the game works, but no guarantees as to the condition otherwise. On eBay's condition scale for media, "acceptable" is the lowest level of condition that includes the stipulation that the item in question still functions. If there's water damage to the manual but the game works, it qualifies as acceptable.
If the seller doesn't post evidence, photographic or descriptive, as to why as item is only "acceptable" and not better, it is the responsibility of the buyer to inquire to find out more details. Caveat Emptor. He gave an ACCURATE condition rating, going by eBay's condition scale.
I would have been irritated to discover undisclosed water damage, but it isn't fraud and it isn't lying. It is my fault for not inquiring WHY some of the items are only "acceptable" and not better. Sounds to me like you were over-eager to get a deal and didn't do your due diligence. If the games didn't work, then that would be fraud and lying, but since they worked, they met the burden of "acceptable". And even if you didn't actually buy the stuff on eBay, you were relying on the eBay description. It's always easier to blame others for not giving you enough information instead of looking inward to ask yourself, "Why didn't I ask enough questions?"
If he would have bothered to do so, and I am sure he did, the auction contained a pic that stated what was wrong the the damaged manuals. The info was never hid from him, and I wanted to see how far he would go with this lying crap before I posted the gif above of the auction being viewed and scrolled down to show that. If you watch his unboxing video he is not the least bit surprised about the condition of the items as he pulls them out. He knew what to expect. He is only bitching after the fact due to all this other mess he has been busted on. The fact of the matter is too that even though I knew he read the thing in full and all, I offered him a refund for the games anyway. He turned it down. This was not anything I was obliged to offer him, I just did it anyway, like when I included Pc-Genjin 3 upon request without asking for more then the auctions minimum bid amount.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 07, 2013, 03:16:48 AM
You sir are a liar and a sociopath and sell damaged games as “Acceptable”. I have the pics and the f*cking un-boxing to prove it. Water damaged. Nice try.
I can't believe I'm defending a jerk, but...
According to eBay: "Acceptable An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included."
Looks to me like if the games worked, they are "acceptable". The only category I can imagine below "Acceptable" is "non-working". Basically, "acceptable" condition means the game works, but no guarantees as to the condition otherwise. On eBay's condition scale for media, "acceptable" is the lowest level of condition that includes the stipulation that the item in question still functions. If there's water damage to the manual but the game works, it qualifies as acceptable.
If the seller doesn't post evidence, photographic or descriptive, as to why as item is only "acceptable" and not better, it is the responsibility of the buyer to inquire to find out more details. Caveat Emptor. He gave an ACCURATE condition rating, going by eBay's condition scale.
I would have been irritated to discover undisclosed water damage, but it isn't fraud and it isn't lying. It is my fault for not inquiring WHY some of the items are only "acceptable" and not better. Sounds to me like you were over-eager to get a deal and didn't do your due diligence. If the games didn't work, then that would be fraud and lying, but since they worked, they met the burden of "acceptable". And even if you didn't actually buy the stuff on eBay, you were relying on the eBay description. It's always easier to blame others for not giving you enough information instead of looking inward to ask yourself, "Why didn't I ask enough questions?"
You sir are a liar and a sociopath and sell damaged games as “Acceptable”. I have the pics and the f*cking un-boxing to prove it. Water damaged. Nice try.
I can't believe I'm defending a jerk, but...
According to eBay: "Acceptable An item with obvious and significant wear but is still operational. May have tears or holes in VHS/DVD box. The video game instructions and box may not be included."
Looks to me like if the games worked, they are "acceptable". The only category I can imagine below "Acceptable" is "non-working". Basically, "acceptable" condition means the game works, but no guarantees as to the condition otherwise. On eBay's condition scale for media, "acceptable" is the lowest level of condition that includes the stipulation that the item in question still functions. If there's water damage to the manual but the game works, it qualifies as acceptable.
If the seller doesn't post evidence, photographic or descriptive, as to why as item is only "acceptable" and not better, it is the responsibility of the buyer to inquire to find out more details. Caveat Emptor. He gave an ACCURATE condition rating, going by eBay's condition scale.
I would have been irritated to discover undisclosed water damage, but it isn't fraud and it isn't lying. It is my fault for not inquiring WHY some of the items are only "acceptable" and not better. Sounds to me like you were over-eager to get a deal and didn't do your due diligence. If the games didn't work, then that would be fraud and lying, but since they worked, they met the burden of "acceptable". And even if you didn't actually buy the stuff on eBay, you were relying on the eBay description. It's always easier to blame others for not giving you enough information instead of looking inward to ask yourself, "Why didn't I ask enough questions?"
According to eBay? See how he misleads? This wasn't an ebay transaction, he posted the auction, go look for yourself I didn't buy it off eBay. More deception on his part. This wasn’t ebay AGAIN!!! As he was TRYING AND TRYING to make you believe, this was a private sale, so why quote eBay rules? I believe it is lying by omission IMHO. I was indeed eager to get a deal that is true. I have taken notes for next time and I know I am not 100% innocent. I’m just saying, ME PERSONALLY, would never post a game privately (f*ck FLEABAY) and state that it was acceptable and then mail out a water damaged item.
Sorry, no excuse. Should I have asked more questions, absolutely. Buyer beware as they say, but this is a community, you don’t burn people here. I certainly would never, I’d rather juggle my Duo R…..
I've complimented him on the condition of the DUO R, what more does he want? It's now set on a pillow around rose buds, very safe.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: Necromancer on June 07, 2013, 03:30:03 AM
f*ck this douchebag. He's clearly in the wrong and if we had mods (my kingdom for a nat!), he would've been shown the door by now.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 07, 2013, 03:50:55 AM
I once argued that I thought loose moderation was the way to go, but we have NO moderation around here, which is MUCH different. Too bad that with the crowd here any mod would have to have 6" thick solid steel skin.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 04:02:34 AM
f*ck this douchebag. He's clearly in the wrong and if we had mods (my kingdom for a nat!), he would've been shown the door by now.
Send Joe a pm or something if you want. Joe can get rid of him if he really cares to. The whole lying about sellers bit as is should warrant it, if not the other mess. BTW, my friend got him banned again off the Neo forums. Did not take long at all.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: spenoza on June 07, 2013, 04:49:02 AM
I don't understand the whole "I didn't buy it on Ebay" tack. If he found out about the goods on eBay, then it was clearly the eBay description that gave him the information that convinced him he wanted those goods. All the info he needed was in the eBay posting. It wasn't your responsibility to basically repeat all the exact same info you'd already put up on eBay just because he wanted to buy the stuff outside of eBay. The point is, all the necessary information was available, and he clearly used that information to make his decision. There wasn't any relevant information that you failed to make available. He's basically pissing into the wind at this point.
And yeah, after reading that other info it is clear that this dude's modus operandi is to act like he knows all, and when confronted, simply resort to trolling. He's on the internet for attention and that's it. Doesn't matter how many people he drags in or forums he bogs down. Sure, there are lots of selfish and self-centered people on the internet, but this guy is a scrotal abomination.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 05:28:10 AM
I'm waiting for Matthew to do a video like this classic cry fest:
EDIT: Guess just banning him wasn't enough, they marked him.
f*ck this douchebag. He's clearly in the wrong and if we had mods (my kingdom for a nat!), he would've been shown the door by now.
Send Joe a pm or something if you want. Joe can get rid of him if he really cares to. The whole lying about sellers bit as is should warrant it, if not the other mess. BTW, my friend got him banned again off the Neo forums. Did not take long at all.
Lie? My word Michael your story telling has grown. You already admitted that you sent me water logged games, you already blamed me for not asking you, it’s right there for people to read. You just got caught is all and now your pissed. You are also pissed about how I handle your Duo R. You know what you did.
I don't understand the whole "I didn't buy it on Ebay" tack. If he found out about the goods on eBay, then it was clearly the eBay description that gave him the information that convinced him he wanted those goods. All the info he needed was in the eBay posting. It wasn't your responsibility to basically repeat all the exact same info you'd already put up on eBay just because he wanted to buy the stuff outside of eBay. The point is, all the necessary information was available, and he clearly used that information to make his decision. There wasn't any relevant information that you failed to make available. He's basically pissing into the wind at this point.
And yeah, after reading that other info it is clear that this dude's modus operandi is to act like he knows all, and when confronted, simply resort to trolling. He's on the internet for attention and that's it. Doesn't matter how many people he drags in or forums he bogs down. Sure, there are lots of selfish and self-centered people on the internet, but this guy is a scrotal abomination.
Well he keeps stating eBay standards and practices, like what is an acceptable game or not. I point out it wasn’t an ebay sale and Michael posts that it is “Acceptable” according to eBay. That is my main gripe. I am not a know it all, far from it, but I love to point out people who think they do. That said it wass a private sale, and IF I sold you some games privately, and stated them as “Acceptable” and when you got them and found that they had at some point been under water, what would be your serious response to me if I stated that the condition was acceptable according to ebay, it’s not my fault take it up with the previous owner?
That is all I am saying.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 05:59:43 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 07, 2013, 06:22:07 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
The only crying from what I have been hearing is from you and not being able to keep a woman. All our info is online bro, jobs, titles, We can keep going. All my stuff is up there, My real name is up there on youtube and twitter. IDK why you keep acting like you find stuff when it is out there, I'd focus more on the house you keep, my house is in order.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 06:59:50 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 07, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Dude I don't f*cking know just bash me in the other thread I'm so confused. Who the f*ck is deanman 94? Why do you have so many internet battles with people and assume I know them? How long has this been going on? The world is not out to get you!!! You just have all these issues with people? Anger dude, right or wrong anger is causing you a lot of issues and money.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 07:32:34 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Dude I don't f*cking know just bash me in the other thread I'm so confused. Who the f*ck is deanman 94? Why do you have so many internet battles with people and assume I know them? How long has this been going on? The world is not out to get you!!! You just have all these issues with people? Anger dude, right or wrong anger is causing you a lot of issues and money.
The guy from the same raffle you were also banished from. Even if you're not ripping that guy off directly, it still shows how unoriginal you are. For trying to be a forum troll, that makes you pretty bottom rung when you sound like a repeat of last weeks loser.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 07, 2013, 07:35:30 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Dude I don't f*cking know just bash me in the other thread I'm so confused. Who the f*ck is deanman 94? Why do you have so many internet battles with people and assume I know them? How long has this been going on? The world is not out to get you!!! You just have all these issues with people? Anger dude, right or wrong anger is causing you a lot of issues and money.
The guy from the same raffle you were also banished from. Even if you're not ripping that guy off directly, it still shows how unoriginal you are. For trying to be a forum troll, that makes you pretty bottom rung when you sound like a repeat of last weeks loser.
I'm not trying to be anything, seriously it's all in your head. You have this pre packaged rant in you head and apply it to anyone who pisses off, me, the long list of names you can rattle off without a hint of hesitation (holding many grudges), and your wife. Again, bash me all you want, keep loved ones close.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on June 07, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Dude I don't f*cking know just bash me in the other thread I'm so confused. Who the f*ck is deanman 94? Why do you have so many internet battles with people and assume I know them? How long has this been going on? The world is not out to get you!!! You just have all these issues with people? Anger dude, right or wrong anger is causing you a lot of issues and money.
The guy from the same raffle you were also banished from. Even if you're not ripping that guy off directly, it still shows how unoriginal you are. For trying to be a forum troll, that makes you pretty bottom rung when you sound like a repeat of last weeks loser.
I'm not trying to be anything, seriously it's all in your head. You have this pre packaged rant in you head and apply it to anyone who pisses off, me, the long list of names you can rattle off without a hint of hesitation (holding many grudges), and your wife. Again, bash me all you want, keep loved ones close.
Why do you keep coming back to this thread, don't you have that one named specifically after you to play in?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: EvilEvoIX on June 07, 2013, 07:54:38 PM
This is basically being discussed in your other thread. You prob didn't get the memo since you were too busy making a new Neo forums account to sneak back in with. You should check the other thread pedobrah.
rehashing of deadman_94s material
Didn't you do this on the other thread already?
Dude I don't f*cking know just bash me in the other thread I'm so confused. Who the f*ck is deanman 94? Why do you have so many internet battles with people and assume I know them? How long has this been going on? The world is not out to get you!!! You just have all these issues with people? Anger dude, right or wrong anger is causing you a lot of issues and money.
The guy from the same raffle you were also banished from. Even if you're not ripping that guy off directly, it still shows how unoriginal you are. For trying to be a forum troll, that makes you pretty bottom rung when you sound like a repeat of last weeks loser.
I'm not trying to be anything, seriously it's all in your head. You have this pre packaged rant in you head and apply it to anyone who pisses off, me, the long list of names you can rattle off without a hint of hesitation (holding many grudges), and your wife. Again, bash me all you want, keep loved ones close.
Why do you keep coming back to this thread, don't you have that one named specifically after you to play in?
Same reason as you I suppose, moving back to my thread.
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: esteban on June 08, 2013, 03:18:10 AM
STATUS: What cruel fate is this? Having barely ventured beyond the confinement of this thread, I find myself behind bars once more, only to press my flesh against cold steel in a desperate attempt to peek at greener pastures?
What cruel fate is this?
Title: Re: Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
Post by: BigusSchmuck on June 08, 2013, 05:57:30 AM
Jesus Christ, I'm just trying to read this thread for technical knowledge so I can actually do some port work. What the hell does the MD vs PCE argument have to do with anything?