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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Nighttrate on November 15, 2013, 12:00:17 AM
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Hi I'm nu to the forum but not nu to PC Engine's & was wondering if it would be posable to convert Ghouls & Ghost to play on a PCE CD Rom2?
sorry if I've posted this in the wrong bit.
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hi, it would be posable.
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Am I the only one that finds the use of posable Ironic. :lol:
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Possible? Of course. Easy? Hell, no, but have fun doing it, Nighttrate.
First obstacle: running 1MByte ROM + 32KByte RAM in the CD ROM2's 64KByte RAM (ie: the SGX game is 16.5x larger than what's available at any given time on the PCE-CD.)
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There is a bunch of NES games they converted to play on TG16 but they dont work right in magic engine. Castlevania I think runs too slow or something is really wrong i forget now, Mega Man runs waaay too fast but looks great.
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It'd be possible to port the game to CD (why not Super CD?), but it won't be the exact same game. Some stuff would have to go or be redesigned to fit the limits of the hardware (namely parallax), but some stuff could be added to fit its capabilities too (new redbook tunes w/ optional original psg and/or redbook recordings of the arcade tunes, cutscenes, etc.).
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
Wait. So you're saying in PCE could do a better job with the game's graphics than the SGX is capable of? Say in a perfect scenario, where both systems received a polished port, the PCE would come out ahead? I am no programer either but as far as graphics are concerned I would think the SGX would be at least slightly more detailed. Just slightly at least.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
Couldn't the code be broken like there doing with the NES ports?
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Yes, but with much more difficulty, we're saying.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
Wait. So you're saying in PCE could do a better job with the game's graphics than the SGX is capable of? Say in a perfect scenario, where both systems received a polished port, the PCE would come out ahead? I am no programer either but as far as graphics are concerned I would think the SGX would be at least slightly more detailed. Just slightly at least.
Both the PCE and SGX can do the same graphic quality. The only way that the SGX could be more detailed in parts is at sections of tile layer overlap where a PCE version would either be flat or using sprites/dynamic tiles.
That port of Daimakaimura isn't so great. Something more like Forgotten Worlds would look much better, using assets from the arcade pixel-for-pixel and good color.
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I always thought the Sega Genesis version looked a lot better anyway.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
Couldn't the code be broken like there doing with the NES ports?
Those NES ports are a custom emulation/hack of existing roms. Even if you could hack in some code to tell the PCE to only display a single sprite and tile layer, you'd still be missing half the visuals.
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Im surprised that someone hasn't re-engineered the SuperGrafix version to work on the PCE Super Cd Rom,
Im no programer but as most the coding of the SuperGrafix Version is PC Engine upgraded / Enhanced coding, It should be easier to convert then trying to converting the NES one or another consoles version.
I truly Believe that Ghouls 'N' Ghost is "THE" game thats missing from the regular PC Engine / Turbo Grafix catalogue.
Unless you have the source code, you pretty much have to recreate a game from scratch to port it. The graphics aren't worth recycling, since the PCE could do a much better job than the unpolished SGX port. The music is definitely worth keeping though.
Couldn't the code be broken like there doing with the NES ports?
Those NES ports are a custom emulation/hack of existing roms. Even if you could hack in some code to tell the PCE to only display a single sprite and tile layer, you'd still be missing half the visuals.
Ok hear you, so is there a conversion of the Nes version to PCE like the rock man / mega man port?
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I always thought the Sega Genesis version looked a lot better anyway.
Are you sure?
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The Genny version has more vivid colors then the SGX, which a lot of people like. In truth though it has these due to the MD's lack of colors. Less to choose from, so you get what you get. The SGX version is far more faithful to the arcade's colors.
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I always thought the Sega Genesis version looked a lot better anyway.
ROLF!!
(http://www.pcengine.co.uk/Images-Screenshots_A-K/COMP-Ghouls_n_Ghosts_01.gif)
(http://www.pcengine.co.uk/Images-Screenshots_A-K/COMP-Ghouls_n_Ghosts_02.gif)
While it's not near CPS-1 quality it's still multiple times more arcade faithful than the genny/md version is.
the one thing I have always thougt looks better in the MD version was the grass and arthur himself. but that's about already.
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Here are some more shots to add to the ones Tatsujin has posted.
pce sg genesis
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-001.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_000.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-006.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_003.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-009.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_005.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-010.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_006.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-012.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_008.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-013.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_009.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-015.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_010.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-016.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_011.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-018.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_013.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-021.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_015.gif)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaimakaimuraJSGX-022.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/DaiMakaimuraJ_016.gif)
There are some Backgrounds in the Gen port that are missing all together not shown in the pics above, but the worst part of this comparison is the animation, tons of frames are missing from the Genesis port, if I didn't know I would probably think that the pce port is 10 megs if the genesis game is 5 megs, not only because of the missing animation but also the missing tiles and the more simpler tiles that are used in Genesis game.
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Quote from: Flare65 on November 17, 2013, 02:24:36 PM
I always thought the Sega Genesis version looked a lot better anyway.
Should have gone to specsavers!! :dance:
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Ok hear you, so is there a conversion of the Nes version to PCE like the rock man / mega man port?
NES version of what, Ghosts 'n Goblins? There is no Famicom/NES port of Ghouls 'n Ghosts.
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This is bringing back warm memories of the Screenshot Comparison thread. There are a few instances where I think the Genny version's backgrounds look better than the SGX, but overall the winner is obvious.
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but overall the winner is obeyous.
fixed :D
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but overall the winner is obeyous.
fixed :D
Thanks for that. :D
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myeus but is it posable ??????
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Ok hear you, so is there a conversion of the Nes version to PCE like the rock man / mega man port?
NES version of what, Ghosts 'n Goblins? There is no Famicom/NES port of Ghouls 'n Ghosts.
Sorry I ment Snes for Ghouls n Ghost.
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Ok hear you, so is there a conversion of the Nes version to PCE like the rock man / mega man port?
NES version of what, Ghosts 'n Goblins? There is no Famicom/NES port of Ghouls 'n Ghosts.
Sorry I ment Snes for Ghouls n Ghost.
check for answer Nov of '15
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snes isn't Daimakaimura, its Chomakaimura a totally different game
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Ok hear you, so is there a conversion of the Nes version to PCE like the rock man / mega man port?
NES version of what, Ghosts 'n Goblins? There is no Famicom/NES port of Ghouls 'n Ghosts.
Sorry I ment Snes for Ghouls n Ghost.
Yes, but with more detail and animation, better sound and no slowdown.
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I always thought the Sega Genesis version looked a lot better anyway.
This guy gets it.
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Sorry I ment Snes for Ghouls n Ghost.
Of course it could be ported, but it'd be a port like any other port and nothing like bonknut's conversion of Megaman (or other NES titles) where original code is mostly intact.
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To be honest, I'm surprised that no one's said "buy the friggin' SuperGrafx, dude!" People's time isn't free, and I think the amount of time and effort involved in this could pay for many SuperGrafx units. Unless someone has a vested interest in doing something like this, it isn't going to happen.
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We're all too polite here. But I did say this: "Easy? Hell, no, but have fun doing it, Nighttrate."
Of course that means, "do it yer damn self."
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i think an arcade card port of this sgx is possible with minimal compromises, while gaining advantages such as red book audio, maybe an extend cut scene, let's hope they don't make a mess of it like arcade card ver of strider.
out this generation, the very rare x68000 ver is the best port, but it's unfair comparison as x68000 is very similar to arcade pcb technology and very fast and powerful ( at the time) alternative to the PC
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i think an arcade card port of this sgx is possible with minimal compromises, while gaining advantages such as red book audio, maybe an extend cut scene
How could there be little compromise? The SGX has 2 background layers and 128 sprites. The Arcade Card has 0 background layers and 0 sprites, but 2MBytes of RAM.
It's like saying a house can go faster than a car because a house is much bigger. :lol:
let's hope they don't make a mess of it like arcade card ver of strider.
Who, exactly, is this they?
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How could there be little compromise? The SGX has 2 background layers and 128 sprites. The Arcade Card has 0 background layers and 0 sprites, but 2MBytes of RAM.
It's like saying a house can go faster than a car because a house is much bigger. :lol:
ahhhh hahahahahahahahahaha
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Hm, how posable? Depends on how many points of articulation it has...
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I think an SGX Super-CD port of Daimakaimura would be fun, with improved sprite/bg colors and redbook audio. I don't think it would be worth the effort to try and smash all the two-layer parallax into one bg layer and make it a standard PC-Engine Super-CD game, though... you'd have to virtually rewrite the entire game code.
That being said, the sprites in SGX Daimakaimura are the EXACT same size as the arcade. They're not downsized at all, just color reduced to 9-bit... and color reduced badly, i might add. Which leaves room for improvement.
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To be honest, I'm surprised that no one's said "buy the friggin' SuperGrafx, dude!" People's time isn't free, and I think the amount of time and effort involved in this could pay for many SuperGrafx units. Unless someone has a vested interest in doing something like this, it isn't going to happen.
Buying a SuperGrafx isn't a problem for me, Ive already had a SuperGrafx in the early 90's (along with the white PCE / Cd rom2 I have now) until the AV output broke so I binned it as Im based in the UK & I didn't know anyone that could fix it or even afford to get it fixed on my £5 pocket money back then.
My question wasn't even asking anyone to do it, but wether it could be done & use a few references & examples.
We're all too polite here. But I did say this: "Easy? Hell, no, but have fun doing it, Nighttrate."
Of course that means, "do it yer damn self."
I would if I could, What I was trying understand why something like this hasn't been done before also to get a better understanding of what the CD Rom2 with the added System / Arcade Card brings to the table & some of the hurdles from people that know what there talking about.
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Well, I think the basic gist of the conversation is that the Arcade card doesn't add anything that aids in downward porting of SGX (and arcade, for that matter) games to regular PCE. Hence, Arcade card Strider CD major fumbletitude.
It just has loads and loads of storage for animation frames, BGs... but the poor PCE still has to manage this with its (major, for '90s arcade games) tile, 1 BG, and 16 (on a line) sprite limitations.
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Just port the NES Ghosts & Goblins*. That game is hard? Yes. But it is as fun as the later installments even with the graphical compromise of the NES port.
*Bonknuts: I know how to program the NES except for the audio stuff, where do I start to try porting a NES game to the PCE like you do? I really don't have time for anything these days but who knows, maybe someday I could try.
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I'll just leave this right here...
(http://i.imgur.com/S6iqR9X.png)
The SuperGrafx version has better graphics than the Genesis version, overall... but damn, did they mangle Arthur's sprite colors.
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I'll just drop this off here too... *whistles*
(http://i.imgur.com/ABmytR3.png)
The last image actually uses less unique colors than the original SGX version... yet looks far more arcade accurate. I'm starting to think the pixel artist responsible for SGX Daimakaimura was just plain lazy and/or rushed. All the tiles I used were pretty much just dropped on top of the old tiles, with *NO* extra palettes needed. Anybody else smell a quick hack? :)
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While I agree that the SGX palette for this game left something to be desired in a couple of places, I would guess that the increased contrast in the main character's sprite might have been done so that it would show up better on a period TV set through composite video.
Also, using fewer colors in general makes the graphics compress better. Daimakaimura isn't a very colorful game anyway, I would think that the people making the port probably thought it was more important to have as many more graphical tiles than the Genesis version as possible. That's what makes the SGX port stand out in a side by side comparison.
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I'll just leave this right here...
(http://i.imgur.com/S6iqR9X.png)
The SuperGrafx version has better graphics than the Genesis version, overall... but damn, did they mangle Arthur's sprite colors.
If I had to guess I would say that they probably converted the sprites by eye. Look at his face and the detail loss.
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While I agree that the SGX palette for this game left something to be desired in a couple of places, I would guess that the increased contrast in the main character's sprite might have been done so that it would show up better on a period TV set through composite video.
Also, using fewer colors in general makes the graphics compress better. Daimakaimura isn't a very colorful game anyway, I would think that the people making the port probably thought it was more important to have as many more graphical tiles than the Genesis version as possible. That's what makes the SGX port stand out in a side by side comparison.
I can see increasing the contrast, but not decreasing the color count. It's all about wise usage of the colors. Look at the screen shot of the custom-colored version I cooked up. It uses LESS colors than the SuperGrafx original, but manages to look better.
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I can see increasing the contrast, but not decreasing the color count. It's all about wise usage of the colors. Look at the screen shot of the custom-colored version I cooked up. It uses LESS colors than the SuperGrafx original, but manages to look better.
I've learned that the human factor in game development cannot be overlooked. There's a thread at sega-16 where a member is hacking Genesis games to "correct" the colors, using only the Genesis color palette. The results are amazing!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2909/14645674843_3576132ba8_b.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5561/14622525741_1e1639d22e_o.png)
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28100-Gabriel-Pyron-s-Color-Hacks!!!-%28Golden-Axe-Street-Fighter-II-Final-Fight-CD-etc%29
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That's some interesting work, but I still think that a lot of palette choices in those old games were made because of how the graphics looked on old TVs with composite or RF connections.
In an interview (http://info.sonicretro.org/Brenda_Ross_interview_by_Deviance_(February_2001)) with one of the American artists that worked on Sonic 2, you can see how big of a deal this was at the time:
We used a Japanese proprietary system called a digitizer. All the employees at Sega Japan used them. Basically you did the work on a grid like system, and you saw the results on a second screen, then you’d have a TV screen set up for color correction.
I can see increasing the contrast, but not decreasing the color count. It's all about wise usage of the colors. Look at the screen shot of the custom-colored version I cooked up. It uses LESS colors than the SuperGrafx original, but manages to look better.
That's hard to defend, but I still think that when you break down the sub-palettes, you might see some reasons for why they did what they did.
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Of course, there's something to be said about correcting things like color and aspect ratio to look better on a contemporary CRT TV. My argument is that sometimes the changes they made didn't end up looking any better, and in some cases looked worse. Also, inferior image conversion software (at least inferior by today's standards), time restraints, skill (or lack thereof) of the individual pixel artist and just plain laziness played their respective roles as well.
I already broke down the sub palettes for the bg tiles in SGX Daimakaimura when I created that custom image. It's not simply the arcade screenshot converted to 9-bit color. I put quite a bit of work into seeing how nice I could get it to look without increasing the number of unique sub palettes, which is why a quick little hack might not be out of the question. Granted, the original pixel artist probably didn't have the leisure of infinite time to work on his conversion, but it's nice to see how nice the SGX version actually and realistically *could* have looked, given just a little more effort.
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so is the basics of the code from the SGX Games just PCE coding with extra coding for the second grafix chip in the SGX system
Could the games mechanics (game play) be used with modified (hacked) palettes & sub palettes like Fragmare made (if they Were already in existence)?
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If the end results of a PCE Super CD2 port of Dai Makaimura would have been as good as Forgotten Worlds, i would have prefered it over the Super Graffx version...mainly because i dont have a SG, hehe.
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so is the basics of the code from the SGX Games just PCE coding with extra coding for the second grafix chip in the SGX system
Could the games mechanics (game play) be used with modified (hacked) palettes & sub palettes like Fragmare made (if they Were already in existence)?
the SGX coding *is* PCE coding, with the addition of being able to code with an extra 24KB of work RAM in mind, as well as the extra graphics chip.
The problem with trying to hack a SGX into a PCE game is that it's difficult to say to what extent the extra work RAM is used without fully disassembling the game into ASM. Even then, it would still be hard without any kind of notations and pointers in the code. It would require such a monumental effort, you'd almost be better off just coding it from scratch. With a game like Daimakaimura, there's no telling how the original programmer interwove the code for the additional work RAM and graphics chips into the code itself.