PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Tatsujin on December 23, 2013, 02:15:07 AM
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If you had to choose for one of the two media, which would it be? :)
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I'm just in it for the foam hu card pillows.
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I picked CD because of Winds of Thunder and Dracula X if it wasn't for these two I would of picked HuCards.
8)
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HuCards. Durable, make great shurikens, and have greats like Legendary Axe, Street Fighter II, Bomberman 93, 94, Parasol Stars, Side Arms, Galaga 88, Bonk...
I could go on all day.
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I'd go for huCard, if it was cheap(er) in comparison to CDs.
If what I've read is true regarding pcengine access to data on the huCards (and I don't know any better coz am le dumb) larger capacity would have meant no reason for CDRom2 anyway. (SFII)
Apart from fancy cinemas and redbook audio CDrom2 never added anything that couldn't have been done on a huCard, memory permitting - voila, le Arcade CDrom System Card.
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CD for redbook tunes and being cheap to make.
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I'd go for huCard, if it was cheap(er) in comparison to CDs.
If what I've read is true regarding pcengine access to data on the huCards (and I don't know any better coz am le dumb) larger capacity would have meant no reason for CDRom2 anyway. (SFII)
Apart from fancy cinemas and redbook audio CDrom2 never added anything that couldn't have been done on a huCard, memory permitting - voila, le Arcade CDrom System Card.
HuCards weren't cheaper.
CD games have the kind of content you rarely or can't find in cart games for the time. Many games have greater variety and are designed differently because of different priorities/restrictions than cart games. They also have adpcm samples and streaming.
HuCards were limited bitd by the available rom sizes and pricier fast memory the PCE uses. It all fine and well to say that if 16-bit gen consoles were never replaced, that we might have a bank switched 1GB HuCard game today, but that goes into a fantasy realm which would also permit a 1GB System Card for "GIGA Card CD" games.
Even if HuCards could do everything CD games do except CD musuc, voice acting and adpcm -that still makes them inferior.
No matter what, CD trumps HuCard.
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THERE IS NO WRONG OBEY
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b583/TSphotograph/OBEYS_zpsc676d178.jpg)
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Sound engines can also eat up a lot of cpu power/resources. I believe that Tom has said that Air Zonk's (unoptimized) sound engine uses as much as 21(?)% cpu power. If redbook music doesn't tax the cpu in the same way, then CD games potentially can do more than a sound intensive HuCard game.
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I choose supergrafx CD-ROMantic
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CDoes, HuCardoesn't.
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Hueys are great, slim, and portable, but c'mon, they weren't unique or anything... SMS, MSX, etc had slim MyCard/BeeCard etc.
So, CD-ROM² for its pioneering games and unmatched music!
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HuCards. Durable, make great shurikens, and have greats like Legendary Axe, Street Fighter II, Bomberman 93, 94, Parasol Stars, Side Arms, Galaga 88, Bonk...
I could go on all day.
weren't you the one that owns only two CD games? how could you even judge the might power of CD-ROM²? :P
btw. I also went with CD-ROM², since it was the technology that pushed the system to its absolute limits. sure some hueys are great too in terms of showing the technical ability of the system, but the CD-ROM² just pushed it beyond the believable. great games like GoT, WoT, Drac X etc. wouldn't have been possible without CD-ROM² tech., and therefore I am very greatful.
and in the end it also prevented the system from dying quickly during the harcore 16-bit war, since it could offer so much more than the MD/Genny and SFC/SNES at that time could, due to its succesful add-on.
I sure love teh hueys very much, but as chris already said, it wasn't that super novelty that nobody had ever seen before. the CD-ROM² as a game media storage au contraire was something that the world hadn't seen yet at that time it came out, and was even a novelty for the upcoming years.
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HuCards for the portability option when played on a Express/GT. I was amazed in the 90s when I first found out about the Turbo Express and how its able to play the same console HuCard games on the go.
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As a developer, I've gotta go with the CDROM. I really like to make RPGs, and the CD just gives so much more ability for this. You just can't pull off complex, animated cutscenes with voice acting on a hucard. Both mediums have their advantages and disadvantages, but I believe that the CD's advantages far outweigh its disadvantages.
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I go for HuCards because the chiptunes = <3
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HuCards. Durable, make great shurikens, and have greats like Legendary Axe, Street Fighter II, Bomberman 93, 94, Parasol Stars, Side Arms, Galaga 88, Bonk...
I could go on all day.
weren't you the one that owns only two CD games? how could you even judge the might power of CD-ROM²? :P
Hehehe. I own some of the best ones on the Wii. ;)
But like I said, the Huey game library overall appeals to me more. I could never live without legendary axe or salamander.
Dracula X owns all though.
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I'm going with Hueys. It was a tough call, and I'd be very sad to be without Star Parodia and Spriggan (among others), but there are so many awesome obey titles that can be played without a CD attachment *and on the go*!
Crush series. Ninja Spirit. Bombermans. Neutopias. Bonks. Military Madness. I could go on and on...
I'd hate to lose CD capability, but in the end I'd still be very happy with my hucards. And I can play them in my Express.
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I wish they had released Shinobi on a CD, all the missing things make me cry each time i play this Proust madeleine.
So CDs!!
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CD for that redbook audio thank you very much :wink:
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No doubt, CDROM2, like has been mentioned, in the real world your not going to get games like Winds of Thunder or Dracula X on cards or cartridges, there is just too much content/variation within each level(Dracula X, Winds of thunder) and each boss fight(Dracula X)..Hell, the pathetic half a meg CDrom2 produced some of the best games of the entire 16bit generation like Spriggan, arguably the best horizontal shooter of that time and there really isn't much of an argument against it.
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I'd go for huCard, if it was cheap(er) in comparison to CDs.
If what I've read is true regarding pcengine access to data on the huCards (and I don't know any better coz am le dumb) larger capacity would have meant no reason for CDRom2 anyway. (SFII)
Apart from fancy cinemas and redbook audio CDrom2 never added anything that couldn't have been done on a huCard, memory permitting - voila, le Arcade CDrom System Card.
HuCards weren't cheaper.
CD games have the kind of content you rarely or can't find in cart games for the time. Many games have greater variety and are designed differently because of different priorities/restrictions than cart games. They also have adpcm samples and streaming.
HuCards were limited bitd by the available rom sizes and pricier fast memory the PCE uses. It all fine and well to say that if 16-bit gen consoles were never replaced, that we might have a bank switched 1GB HuCard game today, but that goes into a fantasy realm which would also permit a 1GB System Card for "GIGA Card CD" games.
Even if HuCards could do everything CD games do except CD musuc, voice acting and adpcm -that still makes them inferior.
No matter what, CD trumps HuCard.
Did you actually read my post or just skim over it, without understanding what I wrote????
I never said hucards were cheaper
I'd go for huCard, if it was cheap(er) in comparison to CDs
and my reference to the Arcade Card was that it is basically a high capacity huCard.
Red Book audio and low res video may be nice, but other than a few examples, CastlevaniaX, Thunder series, Ys series spring to mind, it rarely added anything other than bloated cutscenes and needless exposition. 99% of the CD games that used it was for the cheaper production costs.
It was introduced before the hardware could actually do something with it, similarly with the megaCD and other CD based consoles of the time.
Posted by Black Tiger
They also have adpcm samples and streaming
If FMV floats your boat then great, NEC obviously thought this was the way forward, resulting in the disasterous PC-FX.
StreetFighter 2 showed what could be produced using 'high capacity' hucards, which at 20Mbit wasn't that high as sega and nintendo produced higher capacity carts themselves without substantially increasing the retail prices. The push toward CD based games by NEC never resulted in overall higher quality (CD airzonk V hucard airzonk) but rather 'shifted' hardware, which was evident through the various redesigns of the CD units by the company.
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rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
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rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
Agreed. The PC Engine CD-ROM was the only console from that time period that actually did something other than FMV. The power of the medium was allowed to shine. True there are a few games on the Sega/Mega CD that pushed the tech but that system has its reputation for a reason. As I always say the PC Engine was truly special.
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rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
Agreed. The PC Engine CD-ROM was the only console from that time period that actually did something other than FMV. The power of the medium was allowed to shine. True there are a few games on the Sega/Mega CD that pushed the tech but that system has its reputation for a reason. As I always say the PC Engine was truly special.
as true as it just gets. I also would say that the PCE-CD system was the most FMV free CD based game system in existence of all ever released CD based systems.
and just look what most developer did still over 6 years after the PCE-CD was released? ever played jurassic park on the 3DNO? oh myyy!!
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rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee367/ade40g/pcepics010.jpg)
(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee367/ade40g/pcepics009.jpg)
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(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee367/ade40g/pcepics011.jpg)
(apologies for the poor ipod piccies)
" But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?"
Been collecting PCE goodies for almost 25yrs and that's the saddest statement I ever heard.
I think I have as much experience of the PCE library to speak about its strengths and weaknesses
don't you.
The PCE did chance it's arm at FMV, probably with better results than the other '16 bit' consoles.
However, most cutscenes consisted of windowed pictures with a few overlaid sprites for the odd blinking eye or mouth, great for rpg games (as I said Ys) but adding little to the vast. vast majority of games. Padding out the gaming 'experience' and CD storage, adding perceived extra content to average games at best.
Considering, as I said, the ACD was just a high capacity hucard, most of these games would have
fitted quite comfortably on one (minus the obvious) essentially shovelware on a CD or in Super Raidens case 'the directors cut'.
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Thanks for adding $10 to my phone bill r-typer. Your achievements as a collector have proven your vast game playing experience. Even if your comments still show that you don't understand what is happening in PCE CD games.
Did you actually read your own comment or just skim over it? You phrased it as though you didn't know which was cheaper and that the answer would influence your choice.
rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
Agreed. The PC Engine CD-ROM was the only console from that time period that actually did something other than FMV. The power of the medium was allowed to shine. True there are a few games on the Sega/Mega CD that pushed the tech but that system has its reputation for a reason. As I always say the PC Engine was truly special.
Only 18% of the Sega-CD library can be considered "fmv games" and they pretty much all have the same gameplay as traditional games which don't incorporate fmv. The Sega-CD library makes as good use of the medium as the PCE CD library does. Many games also make good use of the Sega-CD hardware's other abilities, but that's a separate issue.
The reason the Sega-CD has a reputation for having nothing but terrible fmv games is because of journalists and casual retro gamers who get all their knowledge from youtube videos/comments and terrible mainstream sites with stuff like retronauts. They pretty much take the fact that someone is commenting on old games as credentials that they're an expert. This is why we're fast approaching the popular consensus that the pre-Playstation history of video games consisted of Atari -> NES -> SNES.
What sucks is once a myth is cemented, it discourages people in general from seriously looking into the libraries of unpopular libraries like Sega-CD and PC Engine, where they would have quickly discovered the truth. This is why most people who have even heard of the PCE believe that it is just an NES with RGB color.
The Sega-CD has one of the highest good>bad game ratios of any library. There are so many great exclusives to check out.
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So, what don't I understand?
It's a storage medium, The cd allows up to 650MB or 5200Mbit. So it's cheaper for storage.
It dumps data down to a storage area that is accessed by the pce.
Depending on the size of that storage area (cd/scd/acd) extra animation via either sprites or tiles to enable pseudo parallax scrolling, larger sprite animations etc. It also uses a cd 'interface' memory buffer to play adpcm (?) sound samples, which can also be used to store gfx. Playing redbook audio also frees up cpu usage which also enables better/faster programming techiques.
In my experience, when I purchased 90% of that stuff new the prices were identical.
I preferred cds for the redbook audio, but realised that the games were for the most part pretty shallow, certainly not deserving of a cd release, padding out the cd gaming library really.
I like the fact that Streetfighter2 is (in my opinion) the best home version and it's on a hucard. So I would prefer hucards over cd now if getting the same quality as the scd/acd were possible but it would be too expensive. (neo-geo cart V neo-geo cd).
I agree regarding the segaCD. (deffo worth picking up one if you can)
My collection contains 1 FMV game and that came in a bundle that I got off a work collegue. (Road Avenger)
there are some very good exclusive titles on the system.
sonic cd / ninja warriors / final fight / bari arm / keio flying squadron / robo aleste / flink / soul star / batman returns spring to mind. I think it was the perceived notion that FMV was going to be the next big thing and games leaned in that direction but the hardware was limited.
On todays hardware (360 up) they can create open worlds that enable gameplay and the almost photo realism is just an extention of that. You interact with real people rather than a random spooled video clip.
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Simply owning something doesn't mean you know anything about it. Either you're ignorant about what's in those games or you're just plain stupid.
Let's dissect your dipshittery for teh lulz:
Did you actually read my post or just skim over it, without understanding what I wrote????
I never said hucards were cheaper
I'd go for huCard, if it was cheap(er) in comparison to CDs
Then what did you mean? HuCARDs were never cheaper to make, period. The hardware to play CDs was more expensive, but there's nothing in your statement about hardware.
... and my reference to the Arcade Card was that it is basically a high capacity huCard.
Kinda, except no HuCARD had redbook audio or ADPCM. You knew that, right?
Red Book audio and low res video may be nice, but other than a few examples, CastlevaniaX, Thunder series, Ys series spring to mind, it rarely added anything other than bloated cutscenes and needless exposition.
So you actually believe that the vast majority of games have shitty redbook tunes, that almost all cutscenes suck, and that voice work has no place in games? The short bus is here to pick you up.
99% of the CD games that used it was for the cheaper production costs. It was introduced before the hardware could actually do something with it, similarly with the megaCD and other CD based consoles of the time.
Of course it was a cheaper storage medium, but so what? Without the cheap storage space, those CD titles either wouldn't exist at all or would lose all the lengthy and well animated cutscenes, FMV, extensive voice work, and/or cd quality music. It sure sounds to me like they "did something with it".
Posted by Black Tiger
They also have adpcm samples and streaming
If FMV floats your boat then great, NEC obviously thought this was the way forward, resulting in the disasterous PC-FX.
Streaming and ADPCM are useful for more than FMV, you dimbulb.
StreetFighter 2 showed what could be produced using 'high capacity' hucards, which at 20Mbit wasn't that high as sega and nintendo produced higher capacity carts themselves without substantially increasing the retail prices.
SF2 was ¥9800 at launch, which was roughly 50% more than other HuCARDs released around the same time; a similar tale can be told about Star Ocean, Tales of Phantasia, etc. Due to the smaller components used, a HuCARD was likely more expensive to make than a comparably sized SF/MD cart, but that's hardly relevant and doesn't change the fact that making giant carts was prohibitively expensive.
The push toward CD based games by NEC never resulted in overall higher quality (CD airzonk V hucard airzonk)....
Go look at the Neo Geo ports on all three systems, then come back and try to say with a straight face that the PCE versions are inferior to the SF/MD ones and would've been better on a smaller HuCARD. :roll:
.... but rather 'shifted' hardware, which was evident through the various redesigns of the CD units by the company.
I don't even know what kind of point you're trying to make here.
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hahahahahaha,
more saddest statements, must have hit a nerve.
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The super air zonk(scd) vs air zonk(hucard) is a perfect example of the superiority of the super cd format, take the 1st level, super air zonk has far more variety in Background tiles and sprite frames, air zonk sprites for the 1st level are pretty much un animated were in super air zonk they are well animated...but only one or two places have parallax scrolling and is considered not as fun as the original zonk, goes to show that the superior format isn't always the better game, of course in theory, you could make a hu card big enough to fit super air zonk in it and that is the main strength of cd technology, cheap memory.
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hahahahahaha,
more saddest statements, must have hit a nerve.
Not at all. What's sad is you have nothing to back up your argument. Nothing.
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hahahahahaha,
more saddest statements, must have hit a nerve.
You didn't hit a nerve, you're just making really stupid statements about the CD Library, thus demonstrating you haven't really experienced the library.
It adds more storage, CD audio, ADPCM sampling with ease... it's not like it's going to add 3D quality crap like you probably expected.
Shadow of the Beast is a good example of a CD game. It surpasses the Amiga original in terms of gameplay and sound.
Might and Magic 3 is another good one.
It allowed for stuff that would normally take a handful of floppies or *gasp* a CD Rom on PC.
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CDROM format for me. A lot of hucard sizes were small-ish. They grew in size as time went on, but so did carts on the SNES and Genesis (and at a larger size than hucards too). Hucards had more potential than what they put out, but so did CD format as well. There are quite a few games in both formats for the system, that weren't utilized very well.
Back at the time, CD/Red Book audio was incredible. It was also awesome to have streaming dialogue. It helped immerse the story and characters. Even just simple streaming ADPCM in game without cinemas, was big welcome addition to games. I wished more games had used it (it had a decent compression ratio too; you could fit a lot of it on CD. A lot more than regular Red Book).
I never thought once, "I wish they would have stuck to the hucard format". They could have easily put the first Zonk game on CD without cutting back anything. If anything, they could have expanded on the game. I kinda wish they would have done more remix hucard games, later on - on CD.
Nowadays, everything is about "retro" charm. Hucards are charming. But back then, CD format was the way to go.
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Thanks for adding $10 to my phone bill r-typer. Your achievements as a collector have proven your vast game playing experience. Even if your comments still show that you don't understand what is happening in PCE CD games.
Did you actually read your own comment or just skim over it? You phrased it as though you didn't know which was cheaper and that the answer would influence your choice.
rtyper: you're clearly ignorant of the PCE's library and a fool if you think the CD adds nothing but FMV. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, eh?
Agreed. The PC Engine CD-ROM was the only console from that time period that actually did something other than FMV. The power of the medium was allowed to shine. True there are a few games on the Sega/Mega CD that pushed the tech but that system has its reputation for a reason. As I always say the PC Engine was truly special.
Only 18% of the Sega-CD library can be considered "fmv games" and they pretty much all have the same gameplay as traditional games which don't incorporate fmv. The Sega-CD library makes as good use of the medium as the PCE CD library does. Many games also make good use of the Sega-CD hardware's other abilities, but that's a separate issue.
The reason the Sega-CD has a reputation for having nothing but terrible fmv games is because of journalists and casual retro gamers who get all their knowledge from youtube videos/comments and terrible mainstream sites with stuff like retronauts. They pretty much take the fact that someone is commenting on old games as credentials that they're an expert. This is why we're fast approaching the popular consensus that the pre-Playstation history of video games consisted of Atari -> NES -> SNES.
What sucks is once a myth is cemented, it discourages people in general from seriously looking into the libraries of unpopular libraries like Sega-CD and PC Engine, where they would have quickly discovered the truth. This is why most people who have even heard of the PCE believe that it is just an NES with RGB color.
The Sega-CD has one of the highest good>bad game ratios of any library. There are so many great exclusives to check out.
Don't get me wrong, BT. I love my Sega CD. I got a model 1 for Christmas the first year they were released in NA and enjoyed it very much. My opinion of the system is from personal experience, and the press at that time were not highlighting much beyond the FMV games. Even though the actual good games on the system were stellar I just didn't know about them back then. Wish I did.
I would argue that the press at the time has more to do with the system's reputation than today's internet based journalism.
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games that sure weren't the same without le CD-ROM²™®:
basically every single RPG that left a software house on CD instead of a huey :!:
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From a collector's point of view, Hu-Cards seem a little more desirable in terms of lasting a little longer than CD formats, as I've already heard stories of bit-rot with Saturn discs and other disc based consoles. Anyone had any issues with their PCE/TG discs? I haven't popped mine in in years, I hope they're still doing good.
Conversely, some of my very favorite games are CD based, so from a gameplay/music perspective they certainly have an edge. Lots of great Hu-Cards too, though.
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so far I have encountered more hueys that refuse to work (even using every trick known to obey kind) than CDs.
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You dipwads got sidetracked with rtyper. STOP IT.
GET BACK ON TRACK:
HuCards for the portability option when played on a Express/GT. I was amazed in the 90s when I first found out about the Turbo Express and how its able to play the same console HuCard games on the go.
I think csgx1 brings up one of the strongest cases for the HuCARD: the fact that it made console <--> handheld transition smoothly. GRANTED, it would have been better if the GT/TE (and the consoles, goddammit) had built-in RAM backup for saves (oops! I just identified a weakness of the HuCARD library...relatively low support for saving games vs. CD titles).
FANTASY:
CD32 would have been awesome (limited capacity) CD-ROM. I'm surprised Hudson's engineers didn't purposefully cripple developers by pushing CD-ROMANTIC 3"2, with its 24 K data storage and 2 minutes of Redbook. Yes, the MiniCD format. I want Old_Rover to create a project for CD32
CONSIDER:
It's tough to choose CD as the unequivocal champion when we have EVIDENCE to the contrary...
Super Air Zonk sucks Air Zonk's scrotum (http://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons.htm#Air_Zonk)
Daisenpu Custom sucks HuCARD's scrotard (http://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons.htm#Daisenpuu_Custom)
Doraemon CD sucks HuCARD's scrotch (http://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons.htm#Doraemon)
Of course, I'm just goofing around. I realize that the three examples I listed above were the product of weak/lame development...
...so the only way to critique CD-ROM is to point out that it required a substantial investment from customers back in the day. It was not accessible to as many people... CD-ROM hardware and software commanded premium prices, even though the software could have been priced cheaper (on par with cartridges).
Of course, I'm just trying to play the Devil's Advocate since CD-ROM is winning by a landslide. Where's the fun in a landslide if someone doesn't support the underdog?
BOTTOM LINE:
HuCARD allowed seamless handheld <-> console action (friggin' awesome). That's the best defense for the HuCARD against the mighty CD-ROM.
Still, I loves me some ROM ROM.
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I could argue that Hu Cards win out because of those sweet sweet PC Engine chiptunes. Alas, the CD-ROM ROM "Does...The...BUZZ" as well.
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Nowadays, everything is about "retro" charm. Hucards are charming. But back then, CD format was the way to go.
Even back then when I was little, I found a lot of games had corny CD music that doesn't seem to fit the game as well. Especially arcadey games, or arcade ports. The chippy music just kind of works right with the graphics. Alot of times, there ends up being this disjointed feeling with the music. Kind of like crappy Amiga games.
RPGs are the biggest exception. Those games look/sound great with CD audio.
I actually like when the games on CD resort to chiptunes as much as possible though.
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IMHO Sega CD is a turd in the punch bowl. The genesis was just fine without getting the shocker from the CD and 32X units.
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IMHO Sega CD is a turd in the punch bowl. The genesis was just fine without getting the shocker from the CD and 32X units.
Kinda like how the PCE would have been just fine without HuCARD games?
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No, I like HuCard and Turbo CD games equally. I play more cards though, but ownly because I own more.
To me the TGCD offers more higher quality games than the Sega CD does. I sold my Sega CD for that reason. Now granted, I did not experience a lot of the collection, but I didn't have much fun playing what I did own, and didn't want to risk investing any more money in the games. Afterall I could use that money to buy TG16, SNES, or Genny games that are more fun, cheaper, and there are many more titles to choose from.
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No, I like HuCard and Turbo CD games equally. I play more cards though, but ownly because I own more.
To me the TGCD offers more higher quality games than the Sega CD does. I sold my Sega CD for that reason. Now granted, I did not experience a lot of the collection, but I didn't have much fun playing what I did own, and didn't want to risk investing any more money in the games. Afterall I could use that money to buy TG16, SNES, or Genny games that are more fun, cheaper, and there are many more titles to choose from.
I'm not a fan of the SNES for the same reason. After buying Shaq-Fu, Race Drivin, Pit Fighter, Bebe's Kids, Mario's Early Years: Fun with Letters, Rise of The Robots, RapJam: Volume One and a string of other duds, I sold my collection for what I could and bought some quality Genesis titles like Barney's Hide N' Seek, Shaq Fu, Sword of Sodan, Technocop, Barbie: Super Model, Double Dragon II, Slaughter Sport, and Strider Returns. Plus Falcon, Gunboat, Tailspin, Night Creatures, Ballistix, Jack Nicklaus Turbo Golf, for the TurboGrafx-16
I was smart enough to avid the Sega-CD altogether, lest I get stuck with turds like Lunar SS, Lunar EB, Popful Mail, Shining Force CD, AD&D EotB, Dungeon Master II, Dark Wizard, Dune, Vay, Dungeon Explorer, Lords of Thunder, Snatcher, The Space Adventure, Rise of the Dragon, Final Fight CD, Keio Flying Squadron, Sonic CD, Ecco CD, Earthworm Jim SCD, Android Assault, Robo Aleste, Silpheed, Sol Feace, Battle Corps, Soul Star, Flashback, Heart of the Alien, Secret of Monkey Island, Mickey Mania, etc.
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I rule earth
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I'm not a fan of the SNES for the same reason. After buying Shaq-Fu, Race Drivin, Pit Fighter...Heart of the Alien, Secret of Monkey Island, Mickey Mania, etc.
:-D Jonathan Swift couldn't have done better.
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Well I did have AD&D, Dark Wizard, and Dune. As far as I'm concerned turd, turd, and turd.
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Dark Wizard has so much potential. The battle load times kill me
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Dark Wizard is my favorite Sega CD title. I always turn off the visual battles though; the game plays so much more efficiently with text-only battling. The visual battles are pure fluff, and not even good fluff... you don't get to see anyone actually turned to stone, critical hits are never shown, etc. There's just so much missing from the visual battles that it makes them rather stupid to even have turned on. A neutral Ninja attacking with a bow does the same visual attack as if he was wielding a sword, a Dragon Rider always has the same attack whether he uses the normal attack or the breath weapon, etc. It's cool to see it the first time, perhaps... to see how characters look next to each other (like seeing a tiny wizard throwing a dozen fireballs at a Death Dragon, for example), but it gets old fast... couple that with the slow loading time and it just becomes a bore.
*end rant*
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Dark Wizard is my favorite Sega CD title. I always turn off the visual battles though; the game plays so much more efficiently with text-only battling. The visual battles are pure fluff, and not even good fluff... you don't get to see anyone actually turned to stone, critical hits are never shown, etc. There's just so much missing from the visual battles that it makes them rather stupid to even have turned on. A neutral Ninja attacking with a bow does the same visual attack as if he was wielding a sword, a Dragon Rider always has the same attack whether he uses the normal attack or the breath weapon, etc. It's cool to see it the first time, perhaps... to see how characters look next to each other (like seeing a tiny wizard throwing a dozen fireballs at a Death Dragon, for example), but it gets old fast... couple that with the slow loading time and it just becomes a bore.
*end rant*
That must be where I went wrong. I didn't know that there was text battling because I didn't have a manual, and the visual battle about bored me to stone. The intro and cut scenes were cool though.
AD&D to me was rendered unplayable due to cumbersome controls. Trying to point and click with a mouse arrow using a control pad gets old fast.
Dune was just horrible. I couldn't bare to look at it. It looked like someone vomited on the TV screen.
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^Are you kidding? Didnt have a manual? What did you turn the game off after the title screen?
Its rather explicit in the options menu.
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That must be where I went wrong. I didn't know that there was text battling because I didn't have a manual, and the visual battle about bored me to stone. The intro and cut scenes were cool though.
I think it defaults to visual battling; you probably have to set it manually.
You can set it from the title screen
(http://www.eponasoft.com/dw1.png)
or also in-game
(http://www.eponasoft.com/dw2.png)
by changing "REAL" to "TEXT"
(http://www.eponasoft.com/dw3.png)
and if you're good enough at the game, you can reach here:
(http://www.eponasoft.com/dw4.png)
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I bow down to you Rove, my Dark Wizard
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^Are you kidding? Didnt have a manual? What did you turn the game off after the title screen?
Its rather explicit in the options menu.
Hey STFU! Even though I posted in a public forum, I didn't ask for your input =P~
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No need to get nasty now
I havent played the game in years and remember the option to turn the battles off since that was the games major issue . Oh well, another good Fire Emblem hack awaits
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No, I like HuCard and Turbo CD games equally. I play more cards though, but ownly because I own more.
To me the TGCD offers more higher quality games than the Sega CD does. I sold my Sega CD for that reason. Now granted, I did not experience a lot of the collection, but I didn't have much fun playing what I did own, and didn't want to risk investing any more money in the games. Afterall I could use that money to buy TG16, SNES, or Genny games that are more fun, cheaper, and there are many more titles to choose from.
I'm not a fan of the SNES for the same reason. After buying Shaq-Fu, Race Drivin, Pit Fighter, Bebe's Kids, Mario's Early Years: Fun with Letters, Rise of The Robots, RapJam: Volume One and a string of other duds, I sold my collection for what I could and bought some quality Genesis titles like Barney's Hide N' Seek, Shaq Fu, Sword of Sodan, Technocop, Barbie: Super Model, Double Dragon II, Slaughter Sport, and Strider Returns. Plus Falcon, Gunboat, Tailspin, Night Creatures, Ballistix, Jack Nicklaus Turbo Golf, for the TurboGrafx-16
I was smart enough to avid the Sega-CD altogether, lest I get stuck with turds like Lunar SS, Lunar EB, Popful Mail, Shining Force CD, AD&D EotB, Dungeon Master II, Dark Wizard, Dune, Vay, Dungeon Explorer, Lords of Thunder, Snatcher, The Space Adventure, Rise of the Dragon, Final Fight CD, Keio Flying Squadron, Sonic CD, Ecco CD, Earthworm Jim SCD, Android Assault, Robo Aleste, Silpheed, Sol Feace, Battle Corps, Soul Star, Flashback, Heart of the Alien, Secret of Monkey Island, Mickey Mania, etc.
Sarcasm lol.
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No need to get nasty now
I havent played the game in years and remember the option to turn the battles off since that was the games major issue . Oh well, another good Fire Emblem hack awaits
(In Comic Dog accent) I kid, I kid! Hence the smiley.
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Eye of the Beholder is awesome. Pointy Clicky works fine. Worked fine on SNES, too.
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HuCards!
Because I don't have any cd rom :-({|=
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Have to go with CDROM2. Most of my favorite titles are on CD. Dracula X, the Ys games, Sapphire, Forgotten Worlds, etc
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This was unfair from the beginning.
I may have to vote HuCARD, simply to help out the poor little format.
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Dune was just horrible. I couldn't bare to look at it. It looked like someone vomited on the TV screen.
You crazy. I can see peeps being turned off by the game play (it's more digi-comic than anything), but it looks quite good. Have you tried Battle For Arrakis? It sports a similar presentation based on Lynch's movie, but the RTS gameplay is much more entertaining.
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Nowadays, everything is about "retro" charm. Hucards are charming. But back then, CD format was the way to go.
Even back then when I was little, I found a lot of games had corny CD music that doesn't seem to fit the game as well. Especially arcadey games, or arcade ports. The chippy music just kind of works right with the graphics. Alot of times, there ends up being this disjointed feeling with the music. Kind of like crappy Amiga games.
RPGs are the biggest exception. Those games look/sound great with CD audio.
I actually like when the games on CD resort to chiptunes as much as possible though.
Yeah, there are some games that have a lite feeling of disconnect between graphics and audio. But that's definitely subjective. I would say that the majority of CD games with CDDA tracks didn't have this, but I've seen posts about this issue and (they) feel that more PCE CD games have this issue.
I know you said you played these BITD (or approximately around that era), but age and previous experience also has a lot to do with it. My older son grew up in the PSX generation. He played 16bit generation games at the time too (and a some 8bit stuff), but he definitely has a completely different view point of that generation in comparison to someone that went through the 8 and 16bit generation.
I put you in that camp. While you might have played the TG16 BITD at age 5 or such, it's not the same having gone through the 8bit generation (or rather 3rd generation IIRC, because the first three are technically 8bit dominated) as an older child or teen. And then into the 16bit generation. And that's not a snide remark against you; you have a rather unique view and experience when it comes to gaming of those two generations. If anything, it's actually better in a few ways. You didn't have that, "I need better graphics, more colors! Better music! Better animation! More, more, more!". That the NES generation brought upon us, and just escalated in the 16bit era.
There was a time during the 16bit era, where I thought TG16 chiptunes sounded awesome/amazing, and then later on where I couldn't stand it - because they sounded inferior (that happened with the Genesis as well). When I imported Legend of Xanadu for the Duo, I was completely *pissed* that it had chiptunes. I was sooo mad. It took a long time for me to appreciate TG chiptunes. But even to this day, still loving my TG/PCE/Duo, I can only take so much PCE chiptune exposure. Strange that NES doesn't bother me in the slightest - love that sound.
But I digress. The only real disconnect that I experienced with PCE CD games, were sound FX. You have 6 whole channels to make more advance sound effects, yet they stick to the same 1 or 2 channel basic sound FX as early hucard. That used to piss me off. Especially after having experienced games like Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder. Where everything was top notch, in all departments.
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I was kind of burned out by "CD audio" or anything really fancy because of growing up playing Amiga games.
I will most likely always prefer the instruments being pretend chiptune instruments for video games versus real instruments.
I blame that on really liking arcade games also. There were alot of arcades around here growing up and they were all basically puking out FM tunes.
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Nowadays, everything is about "retro" charm. Hucards are charming. But back then, CD format was the way to go.
Even back then when I was little, I found a lot of games had corny CD music that doesn't seem to fit the game as well. Especially arcadey games, or arcade ports. The chippy music just kind of works right with the graphics. Alot of times, there ends up being this disjointed feeling with the music. Kind of like crappy Amiga games.
RPGs are the biggest exception. Those games look/sound great with CD audio.
I actually like when the games on CD resort to chiptunes as much as possible though.
Yeah, there are some games that have a lite feeling of disconnect between graphics and audio. But that's definitely subjective. I would say that the majority of CD games with CDDA tracks didn't have this, but I've seen posts about this issue and (they) feel that more PCE CD games have this issue.
I know you said you played these BITD (or approximately around that era), but age and previous experience also has a lot to do with it. My older son grew up in the PSX generation. He played 16bit generation games at the time too (and a some 8bit stuff), but he definitely has a completely different view point of that generation in comparison to someone that went through the 8 and 16bit generation.
I put you in that camp. While you might have played the TG16 BITD at age 5 or such, it's not the same having gone through the 8bit generation (or rather 3rd generation IIRC, because the first three are technically 8bit dominated) as an older child or teen. And then into the 16bit generation. And that's not a snide remark against you; you have a rather unique view and experience when it comes to gaming of those two generations. If anything, it's actually better in a few ways. You didn't have that, "I need better graphics, more colors! Better music! Better animation! More, more, more!". That the NES generation brought upon us, and just escalated in the 16bit era.
There was a time during the 16bit era, where I thought TG16 chiptunes sounded awesome/amazing, and then later on where I couldn't stand it - because they sounded inferior (that happened with the Genesis as well). When I imported Legend of Xanadu for the Duo, I was completely *pissed* that it had chiptunes. I was sooo mad. It took a long time for me to appreciate TG chiptunes. But even to this day, still loving my TG/PCE/Duo, I can only take so much PCE chiptune exposure. Strange that NES doesn't bother me in the slightest - love that sound.
But I digress. The only real disconnect that I experienced with PCE CD games, were sound FX. You have 6 whole channels to make more advance sound effects, yet they stick to the same 1 or 2 channel basic sound FX as early hucard. That used to piss me off. Especially after having experienced games like Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder. Where everything was top notch, in all departments.
Bonknuts, I think you are around my age (born 01.31.1975), and I agree with nearly everything you said, except that music is very subjective...and I think the compositions themselves become a crucial element. When presented with Red Book audio, but the tracks are bland, or mismatched to the game, or simply not captivating (for whatever reason)...well, a decent chiptune has a chance to worm its way into your heart. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
I know some folks actually really get annoyed with the synths (synth horns, especially) used by the "Telenet House Band"...I don't feel the same way, but I always wondered if they would feel the same way if the tunes were PSG and didn't scream "old 80's synth" like the tunes on Valis II, say.
Arkhan identified an important element to all of this: as sampling of instruments improved, it birthed a weird uncanny-pseudo-realism that does not always appeal to everyone. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just sounds sterile, or pathetic, or "wannabe". For example, I don't mind sampled percussion, however sampled guitar can irk me at times...
Yet, I don't mind the synth horns in Valis II.
It's very subjective (what annoys me vs. what pleases me), but I prefer synth/chiptunes that DON'T try to match their real-world counterparts...I think this is what Arkhan was stating.
Sadly, a lot of sampling used in 16-bit era carts/PC games strike me as pseudo-realistic (we can have electric guitar lead!) when I would have preferred a 100% synth lead (no real-world analogue).
Of course,the fact that I love Valis II's "atrociously dated" horn synths seemingly contradict all logic/reasoning—so, f*ck it, it's too damn subjective.
Also, I didn't clearly differentiate the dynamic we are discussing (my own examples even conflated this):
Synth/sampling (professional instruments, studio, recorded for Red Book)
vs.
Synth/sampling (machine generated by console/PC)
BOTTOM LINE: I love chiptunes because I've always loved electronic music, especially unabashedly pure synth that relishes its own existence as a category unto itself, and not simply "lesser than real instruments"...
It saddens me that games shifted to generic orchestrated soundtracks, purely ambient soundscapes, short loops of music that repeat ad finitum but have no discernible beginning/middle/chorus/bridge/end, etc. etc.
I'll stop now. I think the bagels have arrived!
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I is March 7th 1975(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
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You crazy. I can see peeps being turned off by the game play (it's more digi-comic than anything), but it looks quite good. Have you tried Battle For Arrakis? It sports a similar presentation based on Lynch's movie, but the RTS gameplay is much more entertaining.
I was spoiled having played Dune and Dune II on PC so neither the Sega CD Dune or Battle For Arrakis did much for me :( Loved both games on PC btw.
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Nowadays, everything is about "retro" charm. Hucards are charming. But back then, CD format was the way to go.
Even back then when I was little, I found a lot of games had corny CD music that doesn't seem to fit the game as well. Especially arcadey games, or arcade ports. The chippy music just kind of works right with the graphics. Alot of times, there ends up being this disjointed feeling with the music. Kind of like crappy Amiga games.
RPGs are the biggest exception. Those games look/sound great with CD audio.
I actually like when the games on CD resort to chiptunes as much as possible though.
Yeah, there are some games that have a lite feeling of disconnect between graphics and audio. But that's definitely subjective. I would say that the majority of CD games with CDDA tracks didn't have this, but I've seen posts about this issue and (they) feel that more PCE CD games have this issue.
I know you said you played these BITD (or approximately around that era), but age and previous experience also has a lot to do with it. My older son grew up in the PSX generation. He played 16bit generation games at the time too (and a some 8bit stuff), but he definitely has a completely different view point of that generation in comparison to someone that went through the 8 and 16bit generation.
I put you in that camp. While you might have played the TG16 BITD at age 5 or such, it's not the same having gone through the 8bit generation (or rather 3rd generation IIRC, because the first three are technically 8bit dominated) as an older child or teen. And then into the 16bit generation. And that's not a snide remark against you; you have a rather unique view and experience when it comes to gaming of those two generations. If anything, it's actually better in a few ways. You didn't have that, "I need better graphics, more colors! Better music! Better animation! More, more, more!". That the NES generation brought upon us, and just escalated in the 16bit era.
There was a time during the 16bit era, where I thought TG16 chiptunes sounded awesome/amazing, and then later on where I couldn't stand it - because they sounded inferior (that happened with the Genesis as well). When I imported Legend of Xanadu for the Duo, I was completely *pissed* that it had chiptunes. I was sooo mad. It took a long time for me to appreciate TG chiptunes. But even to this day, still loving my TG/PCE/Duo, I can only take so much PCE chiptune exposure. Strange that NES doesn't bother me in the slightest - love that sound.
But I digress. The only real disconnect that I experienced with PCE CD games, were sound FX. You have 6 whole channels to make more advance sound effects, yet they stick to the same 1 or 2 channel basic sound FX as early hucard. That used to piss me off. Especially after having experienced games like Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder. Where everything was top notch, in all departments.
Bonknuts, I think you are around my age (born 01.31.1975), and I agree with nearly everything you said, except that music is very subjective...and I think the compositions themselves become a crucial element. When presented with Red Book audio, but the tracks are bland, or mismatched to the game, or simply not captivating (for whatever reason)...well, a decent chiptune has a chance to worm its way into your heart. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
I know some folks actually really get annoyed with the synths (synth horns, especially) used by the "Telenet House Band"...I don't feel the same way, but I always wondered if they would feel the same way if the tunes were PSG and didn't scream "old 80's synth" like the tunes on Valis II, say.
Arkhan identified an important element to all of this: as sampling of instruments improved, it birthed a weird uncanny-pseudo-realism that does not always appeal to everyone. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just sounds sterile, or pathetic, or "wannabe". For example, I don't mind sampled percussion, however sampled guitar can irk me at times...
Yet, I don't mind the synth horns in Valis II.
It's very subjective (what annoys me vs. what pleases me), but I prefer synth/chiptunes that DON'T try to match their real-world counterparts...I think this is what Arkhan was stating.
Sadly, a lot of sampling used in 16-bit era carts/PC games strike me as pseudo-realistic (we can have electric guitar lead!) when I would have preferred a 100% synth lead (no real-world analogue).
Of course,the fact that I love Valis II's "atrociously dated" horn synths seemingly contradict all logic/reasoning—so, f*ck it, it's too damn subjective.
Also, I didn't clearly differentiate the dynamic we are discussing (my own examples even conflated this):
Synth/sampling (professional instruments, studio, recorded for Red Book)
vs.
Synth/sampling (machine generated by console/PC)
BOTTOM LINE: I love chiptunes because I've always loved electronic music, especially unabashedly pure synth that relishes its own existence as a category unto itself, and not simply "lesser than real instruments"...
It saddens me that games shifted to generic orchestrated soundtracks, purely ambient soundscapes, short loops of music that repeat ad finitum but have no discernible beginning/middle/chorus/bridge/end, etc. etc.
I'll stop now. I think the bagels have arrived!
I see what you're saying and I agree. There are bland/weak CD tracks for some CD games. But I view that no different than the same for PSG tracks. Not every PSG track is a masterpiece of composition. And BTW, Valis II is one my all time favorite tracks. Probably because it was the first TGCD game that I owned and played (owned a TGCD in early 1991, before the Duo/SuperCD).
But yeah, pretty much around the same age. July '76.
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The thing though is, even a weak PSG tune has charm because it's PSG and somehow accidentally fits in OK.
A weak CD track just sounds like some crappy Casio keyboard's demonstration feature.
Case in point: Energy.
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BONKNUTS: Valis II. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png)
The thing though is, even a weak PSG tune has charm because it's PSG and somehow accidentally fits in OK.
A weak CD track just sounds like some crappy Casio keyboard's demonstration feature.
Case in point: Energy.
A crappy tune is crappy.
And I love chiptunes (they are not inherently "lesser than" studio recordings), but crap is crap. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
But, we all draw our lines in the sand at different points. I really hate happy jingles UNLESS they are ridiculously catchy (then I love them as they worm their way into my cold heart).