PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: kakutolives on May 19, 2014, 04:43:15 PM
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Since I trust the membership here for an objective story. what is it that caused Magical chase to spike in price so high? would anybody with a sound knowledge of gaming history explain why the prices (ridiculous ebay prices aside) are so high? even the japanese version seems to go for a 150+ in some honest to goodness places.
any input from historically savvy people is appreciated.
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Relaesed in 1993 = tiny print run.
I've long argued (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=8477.msg179446#msg179446) that MC was the penultimate Turbochip (followed by Bonk 3).
Being one of the last ones out, it received almost no distribution (we know that the last SCD's were actually released by TZD, post-TTI).
So there was a lot of stock sitting in a warehouse. Then there was the bulldozer. I put forth the theory that TTI snatched up as many copies of Bonk 3 and Soldier Blade as they could, while the no-name third-party shooter from Quest got the shaft.
Compounding all of these problems is the fact that U.S. gamers were starved for Turbochips at the end of the Turbo's lifespan. Whatever new hucards were available went fast, giving MC a reputation for scarcity from the get-go.
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wow thats fascinating. thank you.
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wait so that would explain the few numbers for the turbo but for the pc engine it would be a different story right? does it mean it had a regular production run overseas?
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wow thats fascinating. thank you.
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wait so that would explain the few numbers for the turbo but for the pc engine it would be a different story right? does it mean it had a regular production run overseas?
Had a small print run there as well and an even smaller follow-up print run. My guess is that coupled with US duders going aftter it on top of the JP duders makes it $$$ wah wah wah.
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I thought this thread was going to be about the STORYLINE in Magical Chase.
Honestly.
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It still wasn't that rare until the Turbo became the hip console to quickly put together "sets" of. "Collectards" love having "holy grails", so after Magical Chase got quickly flipped many times within a year, it quickly became a legend. It was further fueled by professional investers snatching up multiple copues and sitting on them. Like the inflated Turbo market in general, it's all based on misguided speculation.
Unfortunately, this has led to too many gamers lashing out at a great game in retaliation, even though no one had anything nearly so negative to say about it before it became popular with collectors. In both cases it's all just a reaction to hype.
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it's one big farce!!
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^This, and everything BT said.
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wow thats fascinating. thank you.
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wait so that would explain the few numbers for the turbo but for the pc engine it would be a different story right? does it mean it had a regular production run overseas?
Had a small print run there as well and an even smaller follow-up print run. My guess is that coupled with US duders going aftter it on top of the JP duders makes it $$$ wah wah wah.
I think it had a standard PC Engine print run, in fact two print runs.
The PC Engine price is simply because it's a good game and supply and demand.
Same goes for Dracula X that game is not rare at all but still fetches high amounts.
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Same goes for Dracula X that game is not rare at all but still fetches high amounts.
Dracula X is kind of a special case. It's one of those games that did reasonably well at the time of release and even got a few people importing, but (justified)hype, a high profile direct sequel released worldwide and no ports for almost 15 years turned it into the single most demanded game on the system. Ask any newcomers why they got into OBEY, and 80% of the time Dracula X is going to be one of the reasons.
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Same goes for Dracula X that game is not rare at all but still fetches high amounts.
Dracula X is kind of a special case. It's one of those games that did reasonably well at the time of release and even got a few people importing, but (justified)hype, a high profile direct sequel released worldwide and no ports for almost 15 years turned it into the single most demanded game on the system. Ask any newcomers why they got into OBEY, and 80% of the time Dracula X is going to be one of the reasons.
I got into Obey because of this friendly and welcoming forum. Doesn't everyone!? :D
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Same goes for Dracula X that game is not rare at all but still fetches high amounts.
Dracula X is kind of a special case. It's one of those games that did reasonably well at the time of release and even got a few people importing, but (justified)hype, a high profile direct sequel released worldwide and no ports for almost 15 years turned it into the single most demanded game on the system. Ask any newcomers why they got into OBEY, and 80% of the time Dracula X is going to be one of the reasons.
I got into Obey because of this friendly and welcoming forum. Doesn't everyone!? :D
Dracula X didn't seal it for me. Dungeon Explorer was what made me Obey. Just turn it on and listen to the (((STEREO))) Sound and the 5 parallax scrolling backgrounds. Couple that with a cool over top view and just an all around fun game to play with friends and you got why I love the system.
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I originally wanted to OBEY because of the pics of R-Type I saw in UK gaming mags. What spurred me into buying one was I got my first job and had some money finally :D I love Magical Chase, I don't actually own a copy of the game but I think the game is quite special, couple this with the small US print and the mystique that has built up over the years for it and that is the reason the prices are so high.
It happens all the time, someone sells it for $30 and somebody buys it. The next person tries his luck at $40, it gets sold. Everytime someone else sells they try a little higher and if it keeps selling the next seller puts the price up.
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Being one of the last ones out, it received almost no distribution (we know that the last SCD's were actually released by TZD, post-TTI).
Hmm, really? Which games do you mean, then? And when exactly did TTI go under?
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Being one of the last ones out, it received almost no distribution (we know that the last SCD's were actually released by TZD, post-TTI).
Hmm, really? Which games do you mean, then? And when exactly did TTI go under?
Magical Chase receiving anywhere near such limited distribution was dis-proven as soon as it was suggested. It was available in stores across both Canada and the U.S. and even received a French manual.
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It still wasn't that rare until the Turbo became the hip console to quickly put together "sets" of. "Collectards" love having "holy grails", so after Magical Chase got quickly flipped many times within a year, it quickly became a legend. It was further fueled by professional investers snatching up multiple copues and sitting on them. Like the inflated Turbo market in general, it's all based on misguided speculation.
Unfortunately, this has led to too many gamers lashing out at a great game in retaliation, even though no one had anything nearly so negative to say about it before it became popular with collectors. In both cases it's all just a reaction to hype.
yep look at the numbers up to even less than a yr ago, people just started buying it then going "holy shit i just paid $650 for this", listed it/sold for $800....and on and on till now. i missed out on a chip and manual for just under 700 2x by 2 sellers in feb of 13 cause i thought it to be too high, then bam thats the number just to start a bid, lol. it will all die like beanie babies once it gets too high and the number of chase's get on ebay....i think it might have started look just last month 2 show up and get around 8-10k in bids don't know if they actually sold and now there is 5 on ebay none over 3k thats a big drop! i hope they all lose their asses on this and i gets back to the few hundred range sooner than later
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yep look at the numbers up to even less than a yr ago, people just started buying it then going "holy shit i just paid $650 for this", listed it/sold for $800....and on and on till now. i missed out on a chip and manual for just under 700 2x by 2 sellers in feb of 13 cause i thought it to be too high, then bam thats the number just to start a bid, lol. it will all die like beanie babies once it gets too high and the number of chase's get on ebay....i think it might have started look just last month 2 show up and get around 8-10k in bids don't know if they actually sold and now there is 5 on ebay none over 3k thats a big drop! i hope they all lose their asses on this and i gets back to the few hundred range sooner than later
Investments/business models based purely on speculation always have their bubbles burst. Game collecting is what comic book collecting was in the 90s, and that bubble burst bad! Once everyone "cashes" in on their "investments" the market will fall hard and fast, and the people who actually give a shit about owning games for the sole purpose of enjoying them will benefit.
**steps off soapbox**
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it here, but the American TTi release of Magical Chase is slightly different from the Japanese one, and not just because it's translated. The graphics were changed, backgrounds and some enemies are different, there may have been some other differences that I'm not remembering (slowdown instead of flicker? More enemies on screen? I could swear I remember reading something about that but I can't recall exactly and I never owned this game). Magical Chase may not have been strictly speaking a "limited" run, but being a TTi release I would expect there to be a lot less of it than the Japanese PC Engine version. Sometimes the opposite happens. Changes happen with the American version, and everybody yearns for the Japanese original, which might maintain a higher price tag over time. This one went the other way, probably at least as much for being done in the twilight of the American platform.
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The differences are graphical.
From Black Tiger: http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/dare_to_compare_mc.html
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Investments/business models based purely on speculation always have their bubbles burst. Game collecting is what comic book collecting was in the 90s, and that bubble burst bad! Once everyone "cashes" in on their "investments" the market will fall hard and fast, and the people who actually give a shit about owning games for the sole purpose of enjoying them will benefit.
The situation isn't really the same. My understanding is that during the comic bubble burst, the recently released "collector's edition" comics, variant covers, and the fake-limited release comics had massive losses in value. The things that were truly collector's items, such as the first appearances of Wolverine, Superman, Spider-man, Hulk, and etc, were barely scratched by the bubble burst everyone loves to reflect on. Apparently, most "silver-age" comics were left untouched by this burst.
I think the equivalent would be thinks like "Xenoblade Chronicles" and the glut of recent collectors editions of games. Games from the 8bit through 32bit era won't be affected by the crash, because they are actually difficult to find. While yes, some people are hoarding Magical Chases and other rarities, it isn't going to prevent the price from continuing to go crazy.
As much as everyone wants people to stop treating video games like an investment, it just won't happen. Once real money gets involved, so do all the shitty parts of humanity that comes with it. This includes investments, market manipulation, fake games, eBay scams, and the like.
As ultimately depressing my post sounds, there is a silver lining. An everdrive costs around 100 bucks, and lets you play all these insanely expensive games for a one time purchase. If it really is about playing the game, and not the joy of ownership of the original hucard, than that should be sufficient.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it here, but the American TTi release of Magical Chase is slightly different from the Japanese one, and not just because it's translated. The graphics were changed, backgrounds and some enemies are different, there may have been some other differences that I'm not remembering (slowdown instead of flicker? More enemies on screen? I could swear I remember reading something about that but I can't recall exactly and I never owned this game). Magical Chase may not have been strictly speaking a "limited" run, but being a TTi release I would expect there to be a lot less of it than the Japanese PC Engine version. Sometimes the opposite happens. Changes happen with the American version, and everybody yearns for the Japanese original, which might maintain a higher price tag over time. This one went the other way, probably at least as much for being done in the twilight of the American platform.
(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Captain_7932eb_357413.jpg)
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Investments/business models based purely on speculation always have their bubbles burst. Game collecting is what comic book collecting was in the 90s, and that bubble burst bad! Once everyone "cashes" in on their "investments" the market will fall hard and fast, and the people who actually give a shit about owning games for the sole purpose of enjoying them will benefit.
The situation isn't really the same. My understanding is that during the comic bubble burst, the recently released "collector's edition" comics, variant covers, and the fake-limited release comics had massive losses in value. The things that were truly collector's items, such as the first appearances of Wolverine, Superman, Spider-man, Hulk, and etc, were barely scratched by the bubble burst everyone loves to reflect on. Apparently, most "silver-age" comics were left untouched by this burst.
I think the equivalent would be thinks like "Xenoblade Chronicles" and the glut of recent collectors editions of games. Games from the 8bit through 32bit era won't be affected by the crash, because they are actually difficult to find. While yes, some people are hoarding Magical Chases and other rarities, it isn't going to prevent the price from continuing to go crazy.
As much as everyone wants people to stop treating video games like an investment, it just won't happen. Once real money gets involved, so do all the shitty parts of humanity that comes with it. This includes investments, market manipulation, fake games, eBay scams, and the like.
As ultimately depressing my post sounds, there is a silver lining. An everdrive costs around 100 bucks, and lets you play all these insanely expensive games for a one time purchase. If it really is about playing the game, and not the joy of ownership of the original hucard, than that should be sufficient.
It's definitely not a 1:1 comparison (the comic crash and the current video game collecting boom) but there are still a lot of valid comparisons. For example, the current glut of collectors editions, special editions, games with low print runs with subsequent reprints (as you mentioned Xenoblade Chronicles) are certainly the equivalent of the 90s X-Forces, Spider-Mans, and X-Men number ones. However, other than the clear exceptions you mentioned before (Amazing Fantasy 15, Hulk 181, Action Comics 1, Detective Comics 27), the value of several books, first appearances, and story lines of key silver age characters were effected by the 90s comic crash as well (e.g. the Phoenix Saga, early Avengers issues--until the releases of the current movies--and first appearances of C-level heroes and villains who were re-introduced/remodeled in the 90s). The "rarity" and "importance" of those "key" issues (other than the clear exceptions of first appearances of Spider-Man and the like) mirrors the "rarity" and "importance" of "key" titles like MC, Legend of Hero Tonma, and the like.
And the only thing that kept the value of legitimate key silver age and golden age books high, even throughout the 90s burst, was the fact that these characters had firmly implanted themselves in the fabric of pop-culture and generations of people's childhoods. Current niche system and game collecting (e.g. the Turbografx, Sega Saturn, Jaguar, etc.) do not have the benefit of having a wide sense of value and importance among the general populous; basically turbo collecting, and its value herein, is only valuable and relevant to that small niche of collectors who find it valuable and relevant. So when a small niche is buying and promptly reselling games for a profit (even if that profit is slim), and when subsequent buyers are quickly buying them up before the "value" goes up anymore, it's an unsustainable business model that will collapse on itself eventually. And the "ultra rares" like MC and Legend of Hero Tonma, although they will certainly retain a decent value, are not going to have the benefit of a general population of people understanding the importance and rarity of these titles.
Don't get me wrong; video game collecting isn't going anywhere, and speculative collecting of any good or service certainly isn't going anywhere. However, there isn't a single market, commodity, good, or service that can maintain a continuous upward trajectory driven almost entirely on speculation.
Now lets both bust out our everdrives and play some damn China Warrior :D
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... Analysis...
I just wanted to start by saying that the post you just made was awesome. You've changed my perspective. I did have one question, however.
the value of several books, first appearances, and story lines of key silver age characters were effected by the 90s comic crash as well (e.g. the Phoenix Saga, early Avengers issues--until the releases of the current movies--and first appearances of C-level heroes and villains who were re-introduced/remodeled in the 90s). The "rarity" and "importance" of those "key" issues (other than the clear exceptions of first appearances of Spider-Man and the like) mirrors the "rarity" and "importance" of "key" titles like MC, Legend of Hero Tonma, and the like.
How badly were these prices hurt? Do you have a gut feeling by percentage of value pre/post crash?
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How badly were these prices hurt? Do you have a gut feeling by percentage of value pre/post crash?
It really varied on a character by character/story arc by story arc/condition by condition basis. For example, characters like the Silver Surfer and Ghost Rider, who have strong cult followings but are nowhere near the level of A-listers like Wolverine, Spider-Man, etc., saw their first appearance issues shoot up in value to the point where they were selling for 175-225 in some comic book shops because of highly hyped solo series for each character that were released in the 90s. After the burst those issues did drop in value to around 100 a piece for quite a few years. Currently both of those books are close to their pre-crash values, but it took nearly 20 years for them to recover in value. And individuals with sparkly mint copies that were bagged, boarded, and kept in a cool, dry, dark place were definitely hurt less than those with readable copies
Also, the comic book industry is currently experiencing another mini-boom for collecting again, but mostly for independent and creator owned properties after the Walking Dead's success, so overall prices and values for books are definitely on the rise again
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Honestly it seems like every additional of Magicial Chase goes for crazy prices. I love my NGPC and Cotton for that system usually goes for a high price too (between $110 and $250).
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The answer is simple.
The game is magical and now everybody chases it. :-"
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(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/majikal_chayz.jpg)
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The answer is simple.
The game is magical and now everybody chases it. :-"
yuuuuuuuuuuup.
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I agree with what the poster said above about the 80's and 90's games being actually rare. Thus holding their value.
We are at a point in gaming now with all the special edition releases that people collect them just to sell them 20 years down the road. Especially those PSP games like Trails in the Sky Premium Edition. But the difference is even though those games are special editions they still have relatively high print runs compared to actual rare games of the 8 and 16 bit era. They will always be available, even sealed, at least in our lifetime because people will always be unloading their investments. When it comes to collecting now if you truly want to invest you need to be collecting actual rare games, not special editions, unless it is a truly rare special edition. Games like Hilton Hotel on PSP, NiNoKuni Wizards Edition, Class of Heroes 2,and other obscure games with low print runs will be valuable. Mainly games that never hit retail shelves. For this generation the rare retail game probably haven't even been released yet. Because they normally come very late in the systems lifecycle.
But back to the subject on Magical Chase. It's expensive because it's truly rare. Even when I owned the game back in the late 90's I paid $120.00 for a copy with a manual, and ONLY because it was listed uncorrectly on eBay as PC Engine Magical Chase.
Truly rare games command high prices whether they are good or not. Not something like Earthbound that is expensive because people like it is totally different. And when you get that game that is actually rare, and good, especially if it is a shooter or RPG people go crazy.
I think I could list the number of truly rare games with official releases on just 2 hands. And they are all expensive. Not counting Neo Geo AES games. pre NES and PC games because I don't know much about those.
Actually Rare:
Magical Chase
Dynastic Hero
Zenki PCFX
Samurai Shodown V Special MVS
Luceinnes Quest 3DO
Amazing Tader gameboy
Bonk 3 CD (Even this I am unsure if I would call rare)
NOT RARE:
Anything final fantasy
earthbound
hagane
EVO: The Search for Eden
Neutopia 2
Little Sampson
Flintstones Surprise at Dinosaur Peak
Magical POP'n
Shantae
None of those games are rare, they are maybe uncommon, or very uncommon. I would go as far as to say they're is not a single rare Super Nintendo game that had a official release. Not even Final Fight Guy or any other Blockbuster exclusives. As blockbuster was plentiful in this era and had multiple copies of every game. I also don't think there are any rare sega saturn, ps1, ps2, xbox, ps3, dreamcast, Master System etc.. games. Not released in the USA anyway. I could actually go as far as to say after the 16 bit era theyre are not truly rare officially released games that hit retail shelves.
There are however games that are rare because they were special releases or unreleased protos
Darius Alpha
Super Mario All Night Nippon
that Uncharted fortune hunters edition
world championship cart
earthbound nes
Star Fox Super Weekend
The bottom line is Magical Chase is expensive because it is truly rare and sought after. Not just because it is truly rare, but because it is also good, and a shmup. If any game out there deserves a high price tag it is magical chase. Although quite ridiculous as it is. I still remember when Circus Lido was the rarest PC Engine game. It was only sold in certain bookstores in Japan, until re-discovered in mass quantities. I remember when that game fetched over a thousand dollars on eBay, before that people paid near equal prices on yahoo japan before it was ever on eBay. Now it's under $100.00 normally. So I am just waiting around hoping magical chase or dynastic hero are discovered and listed on ebay selaed in mass quantities. Probably will never happen.
A rare game is a game that pops up on ebay maybe once a year, then people see the price and unload a few. Usually around Christmas. That's the best time to pick them up. When people are desperate for xmas money, and when people are reluctant to spend too much becuase of christmas coming up
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I was also thinking. It probably doesn't matter anyway how rare or expensive it is. With the advances in 3D Printing in the last few years i'm surprised people are not printing out reproduction casings and selling these on ebay. Probably wont be long before you can print the whole thing up, PCB included at home and play it on a actual system.
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NOT RARE:
Magical POP'n
I agree with all of this post, but this.... Whaaaaa? Took me forever to get this game.
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I was also thinking. It probably doesn't matter anyway how rare or expensive it is. With the advances in 3D Printing in the last few years i'm surprised people are not printing out reproduction casings and selling these on ebay. Probably wont be long before you can print the whole thing up, PCB included at home and play it on a actual system.
Lol, you apparently have never been on NintendoAge. That place is hilarious because so many people are worried about others making repros of released games and reducing the value of their "legit" items. Making a basic repro to fool like someone on Craigslist isn't too bad, but making something that plays and has all the hallmarks of a true original takes a lot of work. HuCards will probably be the last to have boots made of them, mainly because of how they were manufactured.
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HuCards will probably be the last to have boots made of them, mainly because of how they were manufactured.
Games like Magical Chase are making it worth the effort. You can bet it's on a booter's radar.
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I was also thinking. It probably doesn't matter anyway how rare or expensive it is. With the advances in 3D Printing in the last few years i'm surprised people are not printing out reproduction casings and selling these on ebay. Probably wont be long before you can print the whole thing up, PCB included at home and play it on a actual system.
I'm a member there. But been awhile. I can't wait till I can print up a cope of lil Sampson.
Lol, you apparently have never been on NintendoAge. That place is hilarious because so many people are worried about others making repros of released games and reducing the value of their "legit" items. Making a basic repro to fool like someone on Craigslist isn't too bad, but making something that plays and has all the hallmarks of a true original takes a lot of work. HuCards will probably be the last to have boots made of them, mainly because of how they were manufactured.
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HuCards will probably be the last to have boots made of them, mainly because of how they were manufactured.
Once huey's become bootlegged, they are going to be extremely problematic. If you open a bootleg NES, SNES, or other cartridge, it should always be fairly obvious. Mask ROMs and perfect replica PCBs are hard to fake. There is no way to take apart a hucard to verify it's authenticity. If they master the outside look of the huey, it will be near impossible to determine authenticity.
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I think some of the artwork on the card will be a giveaway. Simple ones like Worold Class Baseball ect wont but onces like MC or Leg Axe II might be.
Who knows, we shall see......
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While technically possible to make a perfect reproduction (what was done once can always be done again.... except for losing your virginity), there'd likely always be some small detail off. Like the Sapphire booties: there's several ways (some obvious, some more subtle) to tell 'em apart from the real deal.
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I think as retro video game bootlegs get better and better, closer to the originals it eventually will cause a crash in the market. I think hucards will be one of the last platforms to be bootlegged though, we're still a long way off making replica hucards.
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HuCards will probably be the last to have boots made of them, mainly because of how they were manufactured.
Once huey's become bootlegged, they are going to be extremely problematic. If you open a bootleg NES, SNES, or other cartridge, it should always be fairly obvious. Mask ROMs and perfect replica PCBs are hard to fake. There is no way to take apart a hucard to verify it's authenticity. If they master the outside look of the huey, it will be near impossible to determine authenticity.
I know, it'll be great and I can't wait for it to happen!
Cheapo Magical Chases and Coryoon's everywhere!
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I think as retro video game bootlegs get better and better, closer to the originals it eventually will cause a crash in the market. I think hucards will be one of the last platforms to be bootlegged though, we're still a long way off making replica hucards.
Since the market is based on b.s., it will unfortunately be the opposite. As with Sapphire, nu-collectors will treat the bootlegs as low-print-run collectibles and flip them for hundreds of dollars and use them as further fuel to justify the even higher prices of the "first print" version.
The market is doomed to crash to a certain extent at some point, but bootlegs only broaden it in the meantime for people who are valuing perceived rarities and are not concerned with the games themselves.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310851208110?redirect=mobile
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151245470633?redirect=mobile
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:lol: almost $100 for a Care4Data "2nd print" edition
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I think as retro video game bootlegs get better and better, closer to the originals it eventually will cause a crash in the market. I think hucards will be one of the last platforms to be bootlegged though, we're still a long way off making replica hucards.
Since the market is based on b.s., it will unfortunately be the opposite. As with Sapphire, nu-collectors will treat the bootlegs as low-print-run collectibles and flip them for hundreds of dollars and use them as further fuel to justify the even higher prices of the "first print" version.
The market is doomed to crash to a certain extent at some point, but bootlegs only broaden it in the meantime for people who are valuing perceived rarities and are not concerned with the games themselves.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310851208110?redirect=mobile
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151245470633?redirect=mobile
this is already happening with sapphire. ass clownz on ebay openly admit its a "repro" and still ask $200.
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Pipe dream
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You know all about the pipe dream, Huh ninja?.... :shock:
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You know all about the pipe dream, Huh ninja?.... :shock:
The Sapphire bootleg flippers are merely providing an archival service, so that you don't wear out your original manual and case insert.