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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: spenoza on May 31, 2014, 06:17:02 AM
Title: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2014, 06:17:02 AM
So, I'm a HUGE fan of Magical Chase's soundtrack, and while listening to a long YouTube playlist of the various musics I noticed something. The music doesn't appear to use any samples. All the percussion is chip-generated, for example. Not only is the composition extremely competent, but the technical accomplishment of generating such a high-quality soundtrack with no sampling only contributes to my respect for this game.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on May 31, 2014, 07:52:28 AM
Although I think Magical Chase's music is great and really compliments the game, there's a huge number of quality PCE chip soundtracks that are sample-free.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2014, 11:47:58 AM
I'm sure there are, but I just happened to be thinking about MC's greatness in this particular moment. Perhaps we should transform this thread into talking about awesome sample-free soundtracks in general.
I was also thinking about Arkhan's Squirrel and it's lack of ability to incorporate samples, and wondering which existing title soundtracks could fit within Squirrel's operational parameters.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on May 31, 2014, 02:24:28 PM
A while ago I was listening to pretty much every chip tune PCE soundtrack on my phone (via PCE.emu/Mednafen) and I found so many games which stood out for various reasons and planned to make notes at some point, thinking that I'd never forget. But it's all a blur now. :P
But Legend of Xanadu II is about as good as it gets and sounds like late 90's big budget Square RPG music, only without all the reverb and misc distortion, even though it's pure WSG sound without any samples:
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii46.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii50.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii51.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii10.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii19.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii20.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii23.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii27.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii34.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii40.mp3
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii48.mp3
Those are Winamp conversions and the music sounds much better on real hardware. No matter how much some of the instruments sound like they must be sampled, you can here how they aren't, by playing the game in Magic Engine and listening to each sound channel individually. Turning ADPCM off and on has no effect on the music. They saved it for all the sampled voice and sound effects.
Bloody Wolf is amazing overall and even the voices aren't sampled! :P
Aeroblasters, Bomberman '94 and Ys IV are similar to Magical Chase.
Aldynes features good drumming and sound/music in general and sounds like it isn't using samples.
Spin Pairmight use a single drum beat sample, but it sounds so clear and similar to other soundtracks' beats done in pure WSG that I think it's most likely chip sound.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: roflmao on May 31, 2014, 03:00:53 PM
But Legend of Xanadu II is about as good as it gets and sounds like late 90's big budget Square RPG music, only without all the reverb and misc distortion, even though it's pure WSG sound without any samples:
Thanks for posting these! I'm listening to them now and the sound fantastic!
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: spenoza on May 31, 2014, 04:38:39 PM
But Legend of Xanadu II is about as good as it gets and sounds like late 90's big budget Square RPG music, only without all the reverb and misc distortion, even though it's pure WSG sound without any samples:
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii46.mp3
Are you sure the "tom toms" in that first track there aren't at all sampled? I mean, if they are they certainly aren't the best I've heard, but I am a little suspicious. Maybe I only feel that way because some of the rest of the music seems to drop out. Maybe it's just a more-than-one-channel effect...
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Tatsujin on May 31, 2014, 05:22:07 PM
UNFREAKFARKTASTIC black tiger :D
thx :)
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: TheOldMan on May 31, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
Not sure exactly what you mean by 'sampled', but...
You can swap the waveforms (6 bits only) every frame. When we were doing squirrel, someone actually used a bunch of down-sampled ones to get a psuedo voice effect. And you have envelopes to shape the sound (and more than just adsr :)
I can't think of a single game that actually used samples, unless they were adpcm clips....
Ask arkhan about it. You can get some really nice effects just from the stock engine.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on May 31, 2014, 05:46:06 PM
But Legend of Xanadu II is about as good as it gets and sounds like late 90's big budget Square RPG music, only without all the reverb and misc distortion, even though it's pure WSG sound without any samples:
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxii46.mp3
Are you sure the "tom toms" in that first track there aren't at all sampled? I mean, if they are they certainly aren't the best I've heard, but I am a little suspicious. Maybe I only feel that way because some of the rest of the music seems to drop out. Maybe it's just a more-than-one-channel effect...
I actually tested other tracks before, ones which sounded more likely to have been using samples, but now I'm not sure about this one. :P
It definitely isn't using adpcm, so if it is sampled, it would be the only CD game I've heard of using samples through regular PCE channels at all, but in this case also using all the rest for chip tunes while also using the adpcm channel for all other samples.
The other tracks I tested broke down to distinct chip sounds as I played each channel individually and each instrument sounded like WSG.
For this track (recording linked below), I played the boss fight in Magic Engine on my laptop and recorded the audio into my desktop PC. Once I gain control, I go into the menu screen to pause the fight while the music continues to play. I then turn off the channels one at a time until only the one playing the suspicious beat remains. Then I play each channel individually for a bit, so you can hear each instrument on their own. Then after playing the channel with the drum beat for a while, I turn the adpcm channel on and play the boss battle for a bit, giving you the contrast of good quality adpcm samples against that beat. Then the beat alone plays for a bit: http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/loxiitest1.mp3
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: NightWolve on May 31, 2014, 05:48:44 PM
This one is about the only one that I kinda liked out of that list.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on May 31, 2014, 05:59:04 PM
For perspective, here is that beat channel from that LoXII track alternately playing with a similar sampled beat track from Fighting Run (recorded from real hardware): http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/beatspce1.mp3
LINK FIXED!
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: spenoza on June 01, 2014, 02:46:43 AM
Yeah, I haven't meant ADPCM samples. I mean the higher quality 2-channel sampling the standard chip can do. I suspect you are correct, that they aren't using sampling. I guess I often end up with percussion lines stuck in my head that rely on brief drum samples. One of these days I'm going to figure out just how much this little chip is capable of. It is so often under- or mis-used that it's hard to know.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on June 01, 2014, 03:02:56 AM
CLARIFY: So, I have been referring to PCE tunes as "PSG", but now I see "WSG" ...so please enlighten me because I want to be semi-informed when I use the terms. Thank you (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: ccovell on June 01, 2014, 04:45:11 AM
PSG is a generalized term meaning "Programmable Sound Generator", of which you could say WSG is a subset. PSG usually just means a simple sound chip that generates predefined, basic waveforms: square, triangle, sawtooth, and noise.
WSG is one of the terms that they use in Japan for "wavetable" synthesis; ie: there is definable sample RAM for a single period of a waveform, making for slightly more complex timbres than simple square waves, etc.
Anyway, about Magical Chase and other WSG soundtracks in general, I've just converted one of the articles in my Courage (http://www.chrismcovell.com/creations.html) diskmag to HTML: http://www.chrismcovell.com/texts/TopPCEMusic.html . In it I recommend several other musicians and give my top 30 PCE soundtracks.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on June 01, 2014, 05:24:00 AM
PSG is a generalized term meaning "Programmable Sound Generator", of which you could say WSG is a subset. PSG usually just means a simple sound chip that generates predefined, basic waveforms: square, triangle, sawtooth, and noise.
WSG is one of the terms that they use in Japan for "wavetable" synthesis; ie: there is definable sample RAM for a single period of a waveform, making for slightly more complex timbres than simple square waves, etc.
Anyway, about Magical Chase and other WSG soundtracks in general, I've just converted one of the articles in my Courage (http://www.chrismcovell.com/creations.html) diskmag to HTML: http://www.chrismcovell.com/texts/TopPCEMusic.html . In it I recommend several other musicians and give my top 30 PCE soundtracks.
Thank you clarifying PSG vs. WSG (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Also, once I finish feeding the kids lunch today, I'm going to read this diskmag in its entirety!
I did not realize that I had missed this much content from your site.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: spenoza on June 01, 2014, 07:31:34 AM
I am talking about digital sampling of real-world sounds, typically used in PCE games for percussion or percussive effects. Air Zonk uses some, as does Batman.
And thanks for the clarification about WSG. I will want to read more about that.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on June 02, 2014, 10:02:29 AM
UPDATE: So I read this excellent article: http://www.chrismcovell.com/texts/TopPCEMusic.html
...and suggest that everyone read it, too.
We need more folks writing content of this caliber.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on June 09, 2014, 02:56:08 PM
A few other decent chip tune soundtracks with decent chip drumming are 1941 CA, Battle Ace and Afterburner II.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on June 10, 2014, 12:44:57 PM
A couple others I meant to say previous are Cratermaze and the Doraemon variant, which have unique soundtracks.
Did not know this or maybe it was learned then forgotten, hmm. Either way, thanks. :3
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: seieienbu on June 11, 2014, 04:12:38 AM
I was always a big fan of the first Legend of Xanadu's soundtrack. The cave in the prologue is one of my favorite PCE tunes. When I first got the game forever ago I was a touch disappointed; I bought the game expecting soundtrack similar to one of the Ys games and was surprised by a lack of a cd audio soundtrack for most of the game. After playing it for a bit though the soundtrack grew on me quickly. The games audio is diverse and accomplishes much without the need for cd audio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVzWRezflds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXoKa-nqoc4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W4nfkw7kI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7EfZHMyBOs
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on June 11, 2014, 05:04:47 AM
I am talking about digital sampling of real-world sounds, typically used in PCE games for percussion or percussive effects. Air Zonk uses some, as does Batman.
And thanks for the clarification about WSG. I will want to read more about that.
I actually kinda wished Magical Chase has sampled drums.. However the bass on the final stage and boss goes quite deep, sounds menacing, I love it !!!
There is a secret sound select screen and one of the tracks doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the game.
and apparently the music was composed by two people one of them is hitoshi sakimoto who is one of my faves !!!
on the wiki page
Sakimoto started composing for games when he was 16, and was paid to both create the music and the program to play it for several games.[3] Composing for these games was the first time he had ever composed music for any instrument.[4] His debut as a professional gaming composer came in 1988, when he and his friend Masaharu Iwata, whom he has worked with on numerous later titles, scored the shooter game Revolter, published by ASCGroup for the NEC PC-8801. Sakimoto also created the synthesizer driver "Terpsichorean" to enhance the sound quality of the game's music; the synthesizer driver has been implemented into many games throughout the Japanese game market in the early 1990s. Despite Revolter's success, he continued with his previous goal to become a video game programmer rather than a composer; however, his friends and colleagues encouraged him to continue composing game music. The recognition he gained within the gaming industry jump-started his career.
maybe he used something similar for magical chase ??? Just saying...
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: ccovell on June 11, 2014, 12:18:06 PM
maybe he used something similar for magical chase ??? Just saying...
Just thinking about it, since Masaharu Iwata was the resident musician at Pixel/Quest, they most likely used in-house drivers, possibly simply expanded from their Famicom driver.
No need to speculate, since Sakimoto's page details exactly what he did for each game: http://sakimoto.cocoebiz.com/discography/index.shtml
Basically, any FC/GB/SFC games he did music for, he didn't make the sound drivers himself.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Black Tiger on June 11, 2014, 12:23:00 PM
I am talking about digital sampling of real-world sounds, typically used in PCE games for percussion or percussive effects. Air Zonk uses some, as does Batman.
And thanks for the clarification about WSG. I will want to read more about that.
I actually kinda wished Magical Chase has sampled drums.. However the bass on the final stage and boss goes quite deep, sounds menacing, I love it !!!
There is a secret sound select screen and one of the tracks doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the game.
and apparently the music was composed by two people one of them is hitoshi sakimoto who is one of my faves !!!
on the wiki page
Sakimoto started composing for games when he was 16, and was paid to both create the music and the program to play it for several games.[3] Composing for these games was the first time he had ever composed music for any instrument.[4] His debut as a professional gaming composer came in 1988, when he and his friend Masaharu Iwata, whom he has worked with on numerous later titles, scored the shooter game Revolter, published by ASCGroup for the NEC PC-8801. Sakimoto also created the synthesizer driver "Terpsichorean" to enhance the sound quality of the game's music; the synthesizer driver has been implemented into many games throughout the Japanese game market in the early 1990s. Despite Revolter's success, he continued with his previous goal to become a video game programmer rather than a composer; however, his friends and colleagues encouraged him to continue composing game music. The recognition he gained within the gaming industry jump-started his career.
maybe he used something similar for magical chase ??? Just saying...
The unused track is the bgm of the tutorial for the GBC version. Maybe the tutorial was one of the things which didn't make it into the final version, like the updated visuals of the Turbo version?
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Ratix on June 12, 2014, 01:15:06 AM
maybe he used something similar for magical chase ??? Just saying...
Just thinking about it, since Masaharu Iwata was the resident musician at Pixel/Quest, they most likely used in-house drivers, possibly simply expanded from their Famicom driver.
No need to speculate, since Sakimoto's page details exactly what he did for each game: http://sakimoto.cocoebiz.com/discography/index.shtml
Basically, any FC/GB/SFC games he did music for, he didn't make the sound drivers himself.
thats awesome his style is almost to easy to point on on the FC/nes his use of the noise channel as a drum are pretty cool. one of the best composers for any game.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: xelement5x on June 12, 2014, 04:30:01 AM
I'm personally not a big fan of Sakimoto. All his modern stuff sounds pretty much exactly the same. To me, the Final Fantasy XII Soundtrack in particular feels like one huge track that never ends.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: ccovell on June 12, 2014, 12:17:32 PM
I'm not crazy about his later compositions, either, but you've got to check out anything he did on 16-bit systems (and a few for the Saturn as well).
He's in my top 3 list of game composers.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: seieienbu on September 18, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
Redbull is making a neat series of videos about video game music. In the most recent episode, at about 4 minutes in, Sakimoto talks a bit about the Magical Chase soundtrack.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Opethian on September 19, 2014, 03:44:57 AM
I saw part 3 of this documentary. Pretty awesome! cant wait for more.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: HailingTheThings on September 19, 2014, 10:03:42 AM
Redbull is making a neat series of videos about video game music. In the most recent episode, at about 4 minutes in, Sakimoto talks a bit about the Magical Chase soundtrack.
That was neat.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Digi.k on September 19, 2014, 01:02:42 PM
Redbull is making a neat series of videos about video game music. In the most recent episode, at about 4 minutes in, Sakimoto talks a bit about the Magical Chase soundtrack.
yup amazing loved hearing magical chase; waltz of meditation part2 and ripple theme which I think is the ending. I remember when you listen to that tune in the hidden sound test it just loops without the full ending theme...
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Digi.k on September 19, 2014, 01:08:49 PM
PSG is a generalized term meaning "Programmable Sound Generator", of which you could say WSG is a subset. PSG usually just means a simple sound chip that generates predefined, basic waveforms: square, triangle, sawtooth, and noise.
WSG is one of the terms that they use in Japan for "wavetable" synthesis; ie: there is definable sample RAM for a single period of a waveform, making for slightly more complex timbres than simple square waves, etc.
Anyway, about Magical Chase and other WSG soundtracks in general, I've just converted one of the articles in my Courage (http://www.chrismcovell.com/creations.html) diskmag to HTML: http://www.chrismcovell.com/texts/TopPCEMusic.html . In it I recommend several other musicians and give my top 30 PCE soundtracks.
Great list, I would have placed dragon saber / yokai douchuki in there, even jigoku meguri for it's gentle japanese percussion sounds.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: VenomMacbeth on September 19, 2014, 01:33:29 PM
A game I think could benefit greatly from sampled percussion is Bloody Wolf. The composition is phenomenal, but the drums are so weak-sounding.
Title: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on September 19, 2014, 10:35:19 PM
On a related note: The BW .hes file never plays for me...not sure if that's my fault or a common issue.
Give the following player a try:
BZRPlayer (Multi Format Player inc HES): http://bzrplayer.blazer.nu/
or if you use winamp use the following plug-in
http://www.vesta.dti.ne.jp/~tsato/soft_sound.html
Or as an alternativegive Kobarin Media Player ago
http://hwm5.gyao.ne.jp/kobarin/
Winamp seems to handle looped tunes better, BZRPlayer plays the loop once and then moves onto the next track. I am not sure if there is a setting to change this in BZRPlayer
Also make sure that you play the .m3u tracklist file rather then the .hes directly.
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Digi.k on January 12, 2017, 07:44:48 AM
this is an old topic but I am currently playing through Shin Megami Tensei on the pc engine and most of the in-game music.. about 90% is I think PSG (ending, intro are redbook audio and a bunch of spoken dialogue tracks) but all the in-game track instruments and percussion sound very familiar falling somewhere in-between Magical Chase and Dungeon Explorer. It's hypnotic! The percussion certainly has a Magical Chase sound to them.
Just the intro of this...
Makes me think about this..
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: esteban on January 12, 2017, 08:15:37 AM
Ok, now I am intrigued.
:)
Are you going to post comparisons?
Or should I just listen for myself...assuming I have Shin Mwgami Tensei somewhere....
Title: Re: Observation about Magical Chase's soundtrack
Post by: Digi.k on January 12, 2017, 08:22:01 AM
But Legend of Xanadu II is about as good as it gets and sounds like late 90's big budget Square RPG music, only without all the reverb and misc distortion, even though it's pure WSG sound without any samples
I couldn't agree anymore, legend of Xanadu is simply fantastic. The soundtrack is an absolute pleasure
And thanks for sharing that shin megami soundtrack