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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Joe Redifer on July 30, 2014, 10:13:09 AM
Title: What games push the system?
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 30, 2014, 10:13:09 AM
Sp aside from Gate of Thunder, Winds of Thunder and Sapphire, what are some games push the technical limits of the system?
Do NOT mention any TurboGrafx games at all in this thread, PC Engine only! Mention of TurboGrafx games in the PC Engine forum is illegal. If you want to talk about the TurboGrafx-16, go to the TurboGrafx subforum. It has absolutely no business EVER being discussed here, and vice-versa! We have different forums for a reason (what that reason is, I do not know nor can I comprehend but whatever, you guys want it that way).
EDIT: Oh yeah not Dracula X, either!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: wildfruit on July 30, 2014, 10:26:02 AM
Maybe populous? I mean not on a visual impact level but with not much RAM there's a lot going on. I'm just guessing.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Necromancer on July 30, 2014, 10:33:30 AM
Magical Chase - lots of graphical tricks not used often elsewhere Gulliver Boy - impressive FMV, much better than Sherlock or ICFtD Spriggan - awesome looking regular CD game that beats many Super CD shewties in the graphics department Champions Forever Boxing - pushes the sound samples like a mo-fo Falcon - they look pretty bleh, but they're real polygons! Gunboat - ditto Faceball - ditto, though these look decent Vasteel - lots of weird warping and transparency effects
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: wildfruit on July 30, 2014, 10:39:10 AM
Maybe populous? I mean not on a visual impact level but with not much RAM there's a lot going on. I'm just guessing.
Populous even had some extra work RAM built in, didn't it?
And that reminds me: Strip Fighter II... in 8 megabits it pulled off visuals comparable to Street Figher II and its 20 megabits.
I have a vague recollection of a thread discussing the issue. I think the conclusion was that it didn't. But then again there must be some reason the card is thicker.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Necromancer on July 30, 2014, 10:54:20 AM
Populous huey does have extra work ram.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: owlnonymous on July 30, 2014, 11:32:16 AM
Do NOT mention any TurboGrafx games at all in this thread, PC Engine only! Mention of TurboGrafx games in the PC Engine forum is illegal. If you want to talk about the TurboGrafx-16, go to the TurboGrafx subforum. It has absolutely no business EVER being discussed here, and vice-versa! We have different forums for a reason (what that reason is, I do not know nor can I comprehend but whatever, you guys want it that way).
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2cftlzm.jpg)
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 30, 2014, 11:37:04 AM
LOL!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: SuperDeadite on July 30, 2014, 12:00:48 PM
Not sure how much it pushes the system, but Metamor Jupiter's rotating colony stage always makes me drool. The game does some large scaling effects at times though they are quite slow.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Sadler on July 30, 2014, 01:00:30 PM
I'm not sure if these games pushed the system to its limits, but they do have neato scan line effects:
Metamor Jupiter Vasteel 2 Street Fighter 2 Nexzr Super Darius II Neutopia 2 Star Parodier Cotton Solider Blade
And I'd like to call out Star Parodier again for having some of the best presentation on the system. The parallax, scaling, distortion, music, sound effects, intro, charm, everything. Just completely awesome! :D
EDIT I mean, I'm a graphics whore, so I'm just going to rattle off some more games that look amazing:
Anearth Fantasy Stories Terraforming PC Denjin Legend of Xanadu 2 Coryoon New Adventure Island EDIT3 HOLY NO THAT WAS TOTALLY TG16 and I still think the 3D wireframe stuff in Space Invaders is cool...
EDIT2 Does homebrew stuff count? Tongueman's Logic had some neat stuff going on. The transparency Link demo was cool, as was the Axelay demo.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: HailingTheThings on July 30, 2014, 03:23:32 PM
Do NOT mention any TurboGrafx games at all in this thread, PC Engine only! Mention of TurboGrafx games in the PC Engine forum is illegal. If you want to talk about the TurboGrafx-16, go to the TurboGrafx subforum. It has absolutely no business EVER being discussed here, and vice-versa! We have different forums for a reason (what that reason is, I do not know nor can I comprehend but whatever, you guys want it that way).
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2cftlzm.jpg)
That's racist! lol
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: imparanoic on July 30, 2014, 03:27:10 PM
soldier blade, street fighter 2 and pc denjin are probably the technically impressive hucards
Nezxr and image fight 2 is very impressive from a technically point of view and showed that the pc engine cd rom is as impressive as their sega and Nintendo counterpart
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: A Black Falcon on July 30, 2014, 07:15:49 PM
Most of the games I'd mention have been mentioned already -- Street Fighter II', Legend of Xanadu II, Nexzr, AnEarth Fantasy Stories, Spriggan...
Beyond that, hmm. For regular CD titles, what about Alzadick or Download 2? They look pretty good for games that don't use the Super CD. Also I personally really like W-Ring, both in visuals (for a HuCard) and particularly the music. And on that note, how about Gradius II (Super CD)? I see Super Darius 2 mentioned here, but Gradius 2 looks just about as good I think... as for Gradius 1, it obviously can't match the sequel, but for a HuCard game it looks great, slowdown aside.
Otherwise, hmm. Well, the best-looking RPGs are probably Xanadu II and AnEarth, but Magicoal and Monster Maker look a LOT better than most any earlier Turbo RPG. Great work there compared to the earlier stuff.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Arkhan on July 30, 2014, 07:18:58 PM
Does Atlantean count?
There's a f*ckton of sprite pushing, even though most of it is for visuals.
and Insanity!
There's more onscreen collisions in Insanity than there are in your average hectic level of any PCE shooter.
That's kind of sad when you really think about it.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 30, 2014, 07:57:01 PM
Well it would, but not for the episode I'm trying to put together. I've already talked about Lords and Gate of Thunder multiple times as well as Sapphire and Dracula X. Those are all great system pushers on a technical or at least visual and movement level. I looked at Nexzr and it looked boring. Just another shooter set in space scrolling up. It had stretchy ships that appeared out of nowhere and that was the only redeeming feature I found. I've gotta have more than just a boring black background full of stars.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: imparanoic on July 30, 2014, 08:11:40 PM
you never know nexzr could play better than m.u.s.h.a, probably not as it's just plain difficult and frustrating to play
Pc genjin3/Bonk 3: Bonk's Big Adventure is technically impressive due to the super large sprite, which snes or genesis rarely has such large sprites
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Dicer on July 30, 2014, 08:15:33 PM
Yeah, Anearth Fantasy Stories definitely pushes the system to its max graphically, looking like a SNES RPG. Of course you gotta do Sapphire in such an episode, obvious one. Short on other ideas ATM. Many already mentioned.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: SuperDeadite on July 31, 2014, 01:12:40 AM
Cychorider is quite impressive too now that I think about it. On max game speed it moves REALLY fast but still remains perfectly smooth and records a reply at the same time. Fantasticly well made for a freebie bonus game.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: geise on July 31, 2014, 01:56:32 AM
Yeah, Anearth Fantasy Stories definitely pushes the system to its max graphically, looking like better than a SNES RPG. Of course you gotta do Sapphire in such an episode, obvious one. Short on other ideas ATM. Many already mentioned.
O:)
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bonknuts on July 31, 2014, 02:32:15 AM
Meh - no game really pushes the PCE, that aren't on your list. Some do some cool FX or such in ~some~ areas/parts, but a game that pushes the PCE should be doing it every area or almost every area at every chance. No game outside of Got, LoT, DracX, and Sapphire really do this.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: deubeul on July 31, 2014, 03:40:19 AM
Star Parodier do it as well, FX everywhere. Xanadu2 is fantastic from start to end too.
Chô Aniki's sprites are amazingly animated Too, with lots of little details.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Digi.k on July 31, 2014, 04:41:43 AM
no one thinks parodius DA!?! I was graphically impressed with it back in 1992. first 8mbit card, and amount of animation, sprites and layered scrolling, colors and scaling did it for me. It's a little rough around the edges particularly with the slight pausing when sprites are scaled up. I love the effects of the blue bell bomb when everything turns black and white.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Dicer on July 31, 2014, 04:53:36 AM
So, when are we getting Anearth in English?!?!?!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Tatsujin on July 31, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
lol, nexzr is one fantastic game :)
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: seieienbu on July 31, 2014, 05:27:54 AM
Expanding a bit on Street Fighter 2', at 20 megabits it's 2.5 times larger than the next biggest hucard.
Not the biggest fan of the game, but Art of Fighting's characters are huge and really show off what a PC Engine with the additional space allotted by an arcade card could do.
Aside from that most games I'd mention (3x3 Eyes, Anearth Fantasy Stories, LoX2) have already been discussed.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: PunkicCyborg on July 31, 2014, 06:41:44 AM
Not sure how much it pushes the system, but Metamor Jupiter's rotating colony stage always makes me drool. The game does some large scaling effects at times though they are quite slow.
Yeah this was the first thing that comes to mind when I read the thread title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSZQ6oOjSw#t=39
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Sadler on July 31, 2014, 10:05:50 AM
I looked at Nexzr and it looked boring. Just another shooter set in space scrolling up. It had stretchy ships that appeared out of nowhere and that was the only redeeming feature I found. I've gotta have more than just a boring black background full of stars.
The squishy giant enemy ships are neat, but what about the player ship scaling at the beginning/end of stages (watch until ~9 minutes, 30 seconds)? Or the parallax of stage six?
I admit I don't think any of that is hard for the PCE (and plenty of other games do it), but I do think they are pretty nice touches.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on July 31, 2014, 10:34:30 AM
Expanding a bit on Street Fighter 2', at 20 megabits it's 2.5 times larger than the next biggest hucard.
Not the biggest fan of the game, but Art of Fighting's characters are huge and really show off what a PC Engine with the additional space allotted by an arcade card could do.
Aside from that most games I'd mention (3x3 Eyes, Anearth Fantasy Stories, LoX2) have already been discussed.
Parodius 8Mb?
Who can quickly tell me the average Mb size of HuCARD and list the "biggest" ones...
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Sadler on July 31, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
Expanding a bit on Street Fighter 2', at 20 megabits it's 2.5 times larger than the next biggest hucard.
Not the biggest fan of the game, but Art of Fighting's characters are huge and really show off what a PC Engine with the additional space allotted by an arcade card could do.
Aside from that most games I'd mention (3x3 Eyes, Anearth Fantasy Stories, LoX2) have already been discussed.
Parodius 8Mb?
Who can quickly tell me the average Mb size of HuCARD and list the "biggest" ones...
4 megs was the sweet spot. So many impressive games given the relatively small size, yet still so many impressive 3 meg games.
Bigger ones:
8 megs:
Bonk 3 Bomberman '94 Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Strip Fighter II
6 megs:
Raiden Neutopia II Super Momo Tarou Dentetsu II F1 Circus '92 Power League 5 Power League '93
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bernie on July 31, 2014, 12:39:05 PM
Beyond Shadowgate!!!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on July 31, 2014, 01:09:13 PM
Expanding a bit on Street Fighter 2', at 20 megabits it's 2.5 times larger than the next biggest hucard.
Not the biggest fan of the game, but Art of Fighting's characters are huge and really show off what a PC Engine with the additional space allotted by an arcade card could do.
Aside from that most games I'd mention (3x3 Eyes, Anearth Fantasy Stories, LoX2) have already been discussed.
Parodius 8Mb?
Who can quickly tell me the average Mb size of HuCARD and list the "biggest" ones...
4 megs was the sweet spot. So many impressive games given the relatively small size, yet still so many impressive 3 meg games.
Bigger ones:
8 megs:
Bonk 3 Bomberman '94 Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Strip Fighter II
6 megs:
Raiden Neutopia II Super Momo Tarou Dentetsu II F1 Circus '92 Power League 5 Power League '93
Thank you. Is that complete list of 8Mb? Or are there some others?
Same question for 6Mb. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
I'm using this info for an article I'm writing...it was perfect timing that this came up in conversation!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 31, 2014, 02:19:14 PM
Expanding a bit on Street Fighter 2', at 20 megabits it's 2.5 times larger than the next biggest hucard.
Not the biggest fan of the game, but Art of Fighting's characters are huge and really show off what a PC Engine with the additional space allotted by an arcade card could do.
Aside from that most games I'd mention (3x3 Eyes, Anearth Fantasy Stories, LoX2) have already been discussed.
Parodius 8Mb?
Who can quickly tell me the average Mb size of HuCARD and list the "biggest" ones...
4 megs was the sweet spot. So many impressive games given the relatively small size, yet still so many impressive 3 meg games.
Bigger ones:
8 megs:
Bonk 3 Bomberman '94 Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Strip Fighter II
6 megs:
Raiden Neutopia II Super Momo Tarou Dentetsu II F1 Circus '92 Power League 5 Power League '93
Thank you. Is that complete list of 8Mb? Or are there some others?
Same question for 6Mb. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
I'm using this info for an article I'm writing...it was perfect timing that this came up in conversation!
I don't know if it's complete, but it's at least 90% complete.
Quiz Toko Shashin is also 8 megs.
How big is Atlantean?
If SuperGrafx games count, these are all 8 meggers:
Yeah, Anearth Fantasy Stories definitely pushes the system to its max graphically, looking like better than a SNES RPG. Of course you gotta do Sapphire in such an episode, obvious one. Short on other ideas ATM. Many already mentioned.
O:)
Ah, I see what you did there! I thought it was just a smiley at first. ;)
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: imparanoic on July 31, 2014, 02:48:48 PM
Not sure how much it pushes the system, but Metamor Jupiter's rotating colony stage always makes me drool. The game does some large scaling effects at times though they are quite slow.
Yeah this was the first thing that comes to mind when I read the thread title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSZQ6oOjSw#t=39
looks like mode 7 being done on pc engine super cd rom
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: spenoza on July 31, 2014, 04:00:22 PM
Art of Fighting's resolution change that mimics the Neo Geo's screen scaling is a pretty impressive trick, given how relatively seamless it is.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: seieienbu on July 31, 2014, 04:05:27 PM
According to my rom directory, the full list of 8 mb games ist:
1941 Aldynes Bomberman 94 Bonk 3 Daimakaimura Darius Plus Detana Twinbee F1 Circus 92 Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Populous Power League Momotarou Densetsu Neutopia 2 Quiz Takou Shashin Raiden Strip Fighter 2 Super Momotarou Densetsu 2 TV Sports Basketball
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: NightWolve on July 31, 2014, 04:08:41 PM
Not sure how much it pushes the system, but Metamor Jupiter's rotating colony stage always makes me drool. The game does some large scaling effects at times though they are quite slow.
Yeah this was the first thing that comes to mind when I read the thread title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSZQ6oOjSw#t=39
looks like mode 7 being done on pc engine super cd rom
Yeah, that's pretty cool, never knew about this game. Video compression is terrible though, introducing artifacts, so I'd wanna see this on the real thing or from a better video, but yeah, it's impressive.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 31, 2014, 04:56:47 PM
According to my rom directory, the full list of 8 mb games ist:
Daimakaimura Power League 1941 Aldynes Neutopia 2 Bomberman 94 Bonk 3 Detana Twinbee Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Populous Power League Strip Fighter 2 Quiz Takou Shashin Darius Plus F1 Circus 92 Momotarou Densetsu Raiden Super Momotarou Densetsu 2 TV Sports Basketball
That list is definitely very wrong, but you made me realize I'd forgotten about Darius Plus, which is 6 megs.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: seieienbu on July 31, 2014, 05:04:59 PM
Interesting if it's wrong. Why would the .pce files be different than the actual game roms...?
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bonknuts on July 31, 2014, 05:46:48 PM
According to my rom directory, the full list of 8 mb games ist:
1941 Aldynes Bomberman 94 Bonk 3 Daimakaimura Darius Plus Detana Twinbee F1 Circus 92 Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Lady Sword Parodius Da Populous Power League Momotarou Densetsu Neutopia 2 Quiz Takou Shashin Raiden Strip Fighter 2 Super Momotarou Densetsu 2 TV Sports Basketball
Twinbee is not an 8meg game. The rom dump is, but it's actually a 6meg game.
Interesting if it's wrong. Why would the .pce files be different than the actual game roms...?
Over dumps. So you don't have to handle different rom mirroring layouts on flash carts and emulation. But at the expense of a larger rom.
OP: If you looking for games that have particular instances where it does something unique or 'pushes' the system, rather than a game as a whole - I could list some stuffs.
TwinBee hucard - later stages uses quite a bit of sprites to do parallax. One part has a three layers as a result.
Metamor Jupiter - the cannon barrel part. Not just hsync Y-scaling and X offset, but BG color #0 trick to add to the illusion. There's also a part where it has good dynamic tiles for a fake BG layer.
Magical Chase - Good use of dynamic tiles, sprites and hsync interrupts to give more depth to 'scrolls'. First level uses the rarer BG color #0 trick. The trick is only used by a few games.
Gradius 2 - Not really pushing the system per se, but the overall presentation is top tier package. And the fact that they managed to get the game running with almost no slowdown (Konami are great game designers, but not exactly great 'coders'. Even their dual 68k arcade board of the same game slows down). The dynamic tiles in to the two different stages were nice as well.
Ninja Spirit - Only one real part is impressive and I've only seen it done once; dynamic tiles on a split bitplane level. The leaves of the trees on the second level are bit plan 2/3, and the dynamic tiles are on bitplane 0/1. They use a special palette so that you don't see the leaves changing colors, but the BG layer scrolling underneath them. But they could have just as well made this a transparency effect with scrolls. I don't know of any other game that does this, other than my TF4 PCE demo.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: seieienbu on July 31, 2014, 06:28:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JBvfV2xNLjE#t=177 (I'm not exactly sure how this layering trick is accomplished)
Also, Bonknuts posted this a million years ago. It might give you some inspiration: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13711943
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Necromancer on August 01, 2014, 03:20:56 AM
I gotta get me a Star Parodier. Such a sweet shewty.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Black Tiger on August 01, 2014, 06:12:46 AM
I originally listed Detana Twinbee as a 6 meg game from memory, but double checked on pcecp which says it's only 4 meg. I wonder if it was a typo. I don't remember if the PCE Catalog discs list card size.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Necromancer on August 01, 2014, 06:17:19 AM
PCE Daisakusen says it's 4 meg.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Otaking on August 01, 2014, 06:23:12 AM
Video Game Den has it at 4 meg too.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on August 01, 2014, 08:40:52 AM
Thank you confirming all of these games, comrades. (http://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgs.png)
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: BigusSchmuck on August 01, 2014, 12:51:50 PM
Guilliver Boy and its awesome fmv! Of course the game looks very similar to the Lunar remakes so definitely add that to your list. While we are at it, anything using HUvideo is pretty impressive...
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bonknuts on August 01, 2014, 07:15:13 PM
I originally listed Detana Twinbee as a 6 meg game from memory, but double checked on pcecp which says it's only 4 meg. I wonder if it was a typo. I don't remember if the PCE Catalog discs list card size.
Just redownloaded the rom set and a correct dump of the hucard appears as 4megs. With the over dump filling in at 8megs. The game mirrors it in a strange way as if it's accessing a 6meg layout. But yeah, 4 meg.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on August 01, 2014, 11:33:01 PM
I originally listed Detana Twinbee as a 6 meg game from memory, but double checked on pcecp which says it's only 4 meg. I wonder if it was a typo. I don't remember if the PCE Catalog discs list card size.
Just redownloaded the rom set and a correct dump of the hucard appears as 4megs. With the over dump filling in at 8megs. The game mirrors it in a strange way as if it's accessing a 6meg layout. But yeah, 4 meg.
What size is the overdump of SFII', pray tell?
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Digi.k on August 03, 2014, 07:49:32 AM
I originally listed Detana Twinbee as a 6 meg game from memory, but double checked on pcecp which says it's only 4 meg. I wonder if it was a typo. I don't remember if the PCE Catalog discs list card size.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: wildfruit on August 03, 2014, 09:48:12 AM
4 mega power!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on August 03, 2014, 09:50:50 AM
Download 2 for it's bitch'n soundtrack, crazy parallax and awesome cut-scenes!!
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: VenomMacbeth on August 05, 2014, 12:49:01 AM
Regarding Metamor Jupiter, while the "mode-7" effect is impressive, it's actually just a line scrolling effect & doesn't seem to manipulate the bg layer in 3D. You can tell by how the top & bottom of the "tube" don't seem closer to you. Compare it to Super Castlevania IV, and possibly Ranger-X. Anyone care to prove me wrong?
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: ccovell on August 05, 2014, 03:04:25 AM
Metamor Jupiter has pseudo-3D barrel rotation (X and Y scrolling adjustments), although the farther parts of the tube indeed don't shrink in size as Castlevania 4's do. But Ranger-X's tube is totally static (no rotation) and just does simple line scrolling (X only) as dozens of games do.
One of the few games that I know of which copies CV4's effect using scrolling & software tricks only is Brian the Lion on the Amiga. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5FARDxd994
Great effects throughout that video, but the tube's at the end.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bonknuts on August 05, 2014, 04:24:57 AM
Regarding Metamor Jupiter, while the "mode-7" effect is impressive, it's actually just a line scrolling effect & doesn't seem to manipulate the bg layer in 3D. You can tell by how the top & bottom of the "tube" don't seem closer to you. Compare it to Super Castlevania IV, and possibly Ranger-X. Anyone care to prove me wrong?
It's more than just line scrolling. It's compressing the BG layer at the top and bottom; hsync Y repositioning to scale the BG layer vertically in those parts. The X offset per line is to give the illusion that it's round. The PCE doesn't have two BG layers, so it's also updating BG color #0 on a per scanline basis to give it constant shading regardless of the rotation (light source if you will).
Ranger X is just line scrolling (tunnel part). There's a way to do the CV4 tunnel effect on the PCE (I did wrote a demo once to show it off), but it doesn't leave a lot of room for detail. The shading at the depth part is decent, but not as good as CV4 (16 subpalettes for the BG works great for this, but the PCE master palette is the limiting part).
^- @ 27:04 the fake BG layer with transparency (dynamic tiles).
Also, Night Creatures holds the record on PCE/TG16 for largest dynamic tile area per frame. It does a 128x128 pixel block of the back ground to simulate a parallax area of the BG - all with dynamic tiles.
Psychic Storm uses 60hz color flashing on the last ship to get more shades of red.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Prosolis on August 06, 2014, 08:16:51 PM
Yeah, Anearth Fantasy Stories definitely pushes the system to its max graphically, looking like better than a SNES RPG. Of course you gotta do Sapphire in such an episode, obvious one. Short on other ideas ATM. Many already mentioned.
O:)
Ah, I see what you did there! I thought it was just a smiley at first. ;)
This game looks amazing. Anyone know if the mechanics and story are on par with the graphics?
EDIT: Just read the review which was extremely glowing. I'll have to track this down and play it.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: NightWolve on August 06, 2014, 08:36:14 PM
BlackTiger might know. I thought I heard that it is unfortunately a little short ? Or that might've been the case for Legend of Xanadu II, another RPG that pushes the limits. Can't recall for sure.
EDIT: Well, here's a whole guide on it.
http://www.m1sz1.com/anearth/intro.html
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Black Tiger on August 07, 2014, 08:11:29 AM
Anearth Fantasy Stories is definitely not short. :P Fans of SYSTEM-based JRPGs should love the game mechanics, such as zero random fights, enemies disappearing forever once they're defeated, leveling of attributes based on use, spells spending combos of items instead of points, attacks based on positioning, etc.
It's the kind of stuff that people like to use as a calculation that proves quality, but I don't like most of that stuff and prefer what were once called "traditional" JRPGs.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: VenomMacbeth on August 12, 2014, 01:20:51 PM
It's a shame you don't see more wacky special effects on the PCE, but I suppose that's indicative of its relative non-adherence to the "graphics-over-gameplay" craze that was going on at the time, as compared to the Genesis and especially the SNES.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Punch on August 12, 2014, 04:19:18 PM
Holy shit did that tube effect blow my mind. One thing though, you can view it as if it were at the inside the tube as well as if it were the outside. I watched the video on the tube part only and couldn't tell if it was one or another.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Bonknuts on August 12, 2014, 05:54:13 PM
It's a shame you don't see more wacky special effects on the PCE, but I suppose that's indicative of its relative non-adherence to the "graphics-over-gameplay" craze that was going on at the time, as compared to the Genesis and especially the SNES.
I looked at Neutopia 2 recently (for game research stuffs), and I found that the game uses full screen h-sync effects ~ALL~ the time (it's always running). Whether it's something with it or not. It simulates a HDMA (SNES) or ScrollList (Genesis). Just thought that was interesting. Even if you don't see it, it's updating all kinds of VDC regs (X/Y/BG/SPR) every scanline, on every frame.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: ccovell on August 13, 2014, 02:08:07 AM
Yes, that's how Neutopia II does that venetian blind effect when going to the item/map screen.
Title: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on August 23, 2014, 06:14:21 AM
Yes, that's how Neutopia II does that venetian blind effect when going to the item/map screen.
Ha, so is it fair to claim there is a "purpose" for the routine to be running at all times?
Well.. hehe, they could have made a switch to enable/disable this per frame. But I guess they figured they had enough cpu resource to run for every frame of the game.
This is why the game will slow down if you use the tototek flash card with cheat switch on, and a lot of stuff is on screen. Tototek card did some sort of bus watching for the vector access, inserted its own code to change values in PCE ram, and branched to the original game's code. Or at least, this is how I assume it works. The VDC (video) interrupt vector is the same for all VDC interrupts, so the tototek card one gets triggered on every scanline as well.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: SamIAm on August 25, 2014, 09:01:27 PM
Talking about games that push the limits is the kind of nerdy stuff I live for, but I think it's easy to overlook how multi-dimensional "pushing the limits" really is.
In one dimension, you can look at how optimized the CPU program is - whether it's working as efficiently as possible to make the most things happen without causing too much slowdown. Games that push this limit will have things like a bazillion complex moving objects onscreen, or some graphical effect that needs a lot of CPU assistance. GoT on the PCE might be this system's best example of this, but I wouldn't know for sure.
In another dimension, you can look at how fully the game utilizes all the different hardware functions available to it. For example, the Saturn has 5 simultaneous background layers available, two of which can be "mode-7" style, but it's rare to see a game actually use all of them. It's not that it's so hard to "turn on" all five layers in a programming environment, but rather that designing such a background, and having it jive with your game itself and fit nicely in the system's RAM, is difficult. For the PCE, games that use the palettes well, display lots of sprites without flicker, pack the VRAM efficiently with sprites and BG tiles, and use scanline tricks would fit in this category.
One of the more enlightening interviews with Treasure that I've read quoted one of their designers as saying that they've never really done a lot of heavy programming, but rather they've always taken everything that's plainly there in the hardware - no more, no less - and combined it with good design.
Finally, I think another dimension might be when a game uses a system in an unorthodox way. Maybe it could be something seemingly impossible for the hardware, and it could involve undocumented hardware exploits and weird hacks. I'm not really sure what the best examples of this are, though, especially on the PCE. Maybe Art of Fighting and its weird resolution-scaling.
I wonder what PCE game makes the most of all three of these dimensions?
Title: What games push the system?
Post by: esteban on August 25, 2014, 11:54:08 PM
^I agree, clarifying the different ways a game can "push the limits" can help us in this discussion.
Another aspect that I've been contemplating is how the bar (the "limit") gets pushed higher and higher as a function of time. So, when we talk about games that "push the limits"...do we end up (mostly) discussing games from the end of a console's life?
What about examples of "pushing the limit" earlier in console's life?
For example, can we talk about Populous HuCARD and the extra RAM as pushing the console? Or was that never particularly impressive? Or was that impressive initially, but eclipsed later by other games, with better (software-based) solutions (I.e. mappers)?
Forgive me because I'm not technical, but I am intrigued by what it means to truly "push the technical limits" of a system. HuVIDEO might be technically impressive, but...
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: NightWolve on August 26, 2014, 02:02:27 AM
Is Joe even doing a part 2 for this ? Cause not a single PCE/TG-16 game made it into the video he produced, so the purpose of the thread is kinda over unless we just wanna continue answering the question for the hell of it.
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Niko49 on August 26, 2014, 04:45:13 AM
Yeah, Anearth Fantasy Stories definitely pushes the system to its max graphically, looking like a SNES RPG. Of course you gotta do Sapphire in such an episode, obvious one. Short on other ideas ATM. Many already mentioned.
Wow that game looks great! Was there ever an English translation for it?
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: Sadler on August 26, 2014, 05:10:47 AM
Not yet, but hopefully someday (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14331.0) after LOX2. :D
Title: Re: What games push the system?
Post by: lukester on September 01, 2014, 03:44:35 PM
I'll do a top 10 hucard list, only the best looking games
1. Bomberman 94 2. Soldier blade 3. Samurai ghost 4. Street fighter ii 5. Darius plus 6. New adventure island 7. Air zonk 8. 1943 kai 9. Bomberman 93 10. R-type