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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: thisIsLoneWolf on December 23, 2014, 01:22:42 PM
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: thisIsLoneWolf on December 23, 2014, 01:22:42 PM
So I've been playing a lot of the Valis games lately, and I've really got into the series again.
I've been trying to decide my order of preference. It might depend which day you ask me, but I'd have to say 4, 3, 1, 2 at this point.
Part 4 is really great overall, but I do gravitate to part 3 quite a bit. Especially after you get 20 or so minutes in. There are some really nice looking levels, and some great music to enjoy!
How would you guys rank these games (1-4), starting with your highest preference first.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: fragmare on December 23, 2014, 01:59:00 PM
The best one, to me, is the Super CD remake of Valis 1, Mugen Senshi Valis. You can definitely tell it's an upgrade from Valis 2-4 (which is are standard CD-ROM2 games)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: thisIsLoneWolf on December 23, 2014, 02:13:37 PM
It's a good game and also has some technical highlights worth mentioning. Nice graphics/animation/cut scenes.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Necromancer on December 24, 2014, 01:40:56 AM
I wanna say Valis X because tentacle rape and boobehs, but the honest answer is Valis 1.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on December 24, 2014, 02:03:46 AM
Valis III
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on December 24, 2014, 05:11:31 AM
I've played Valis 1 PCE up until the final boss, where I died countless times. I've got the other three games as well, but have just played to the second level, therefore all I can say is I liked Valis 1 the most so far.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on December 24, 2014, 11:36:49 AM
Valis III is my fave. Everything else is pretty close (it's been many years since I've played some...I should play them all back to back over holiday break!)
When it comes to ranking them based on MUSIC?
No contest: VALIS II destroys. All the other soundtracks. Valis II completely destroys them.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: fragmare on December 24, 2014, 12:15:14 PM
Speaking of Mugen Senshi Valis, does it crash for anybody else in Ootake right after the intro?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Dicer on December 24, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
IV/III/I/II
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: TR0N on December 24, 2014, 05:26:15 PM
Valis III and then follow by IV.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on December 26, 2014, 01:37:03 AM
Personally I've always kind of considered Valis III and IV as the elite games in the series. Valis III has moments in it that really felt like I was in the middle of a truly unique gaming experience. With the cut scenes between levels, diving off a roof top to grab a sword and fly back up to kick some ass (in my pajamas!!) WITH PARALLAX!! I love the soundtrack of Valis III and actually would consider it a decent opponent to the Castlevania series for recommendations to those that are looking for a good platformer/action game to try out once you've played all the great Castlevania games to death.
When I first played Valis IV it was on the SNES and I actually really enjoyed it! I loved the soundtrack (again, and I know it's no PCE, but it's still memorable) and thought the gameplay was pretty fluid. Fastforward to when I finally got it on CD and I was totally blown away at the soundtrack and cut scenes. It was like a Special/Complete Edition of the SNES version I tried.
I can't say I've ever played Valis I's remake on Super CD, but after reading this thread I might have to seek it out. I've dabbled with Valis II on Turbo and for some reason or another I was just incredibly underwhelmed by it. The music seemed fine, but the graphics and controls just felt... off to me. I will have to give it another try some time. :)
I've also played "Syd of Valis" on Genesis and it never really caught on with me either. I understand this was a cute remix of Valis II also, so I dunno.
All around, I loved 3 and 4, but didn't have that memorable moment with 2. My experience with the original or the SCD remake is extremely limited. I will have to fix that.
at the end of 2014 my order of favorites would go like this- Valis III - Valis IV - Valis 2 - (Undecided Valis I)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on December 26, 2014, 01:55:35 AM
I think I'll just leave this here:
And the vast HG101 article on the complete Valis series: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/valis/valis.htm
Both have very interesting viewpoints and opinions how they feel about the games and various ports.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ishiyakazuo on December 26, 2014, 02:47:38 AM
I've never played the PCE version of 4 (just the SNES/SFC one), so I'm going to go with 3. (I've never played the PCE one of that one either, but I've heard the Genesis/MD one is extremely close.) I've played the PCE versions of 1 and 2 (on my PS3), and while I agree that 1 is much nicer technically than the others, and the plot is pretty amazing... 3 just stands out more to me for some reason. I'm also not sure why, but the MSX2 version of Valis II was a lot of fun for me. It's technically way inferior to the PCE one, but when I was growing up, I'd played SD Valis and compared to that, anything was a HUGE step up, so when I got my hands on the MSX2 version, I was like "whoa." MSX version of Valis 1 kind of sucked though.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Ayce on December 27, 2014, 12:24:17 PM
I've only played Valis III and Syd of Valis on the Genesis. I finally got Valis III for the TG and have started playing through it. I don't remember the jumps being this stupid on the Genesis though. I hate that you basically have to use the slide to get over many of the gaps.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on December 27, 2014, 02:12:17 PM
I've only played Valis III and Syd of Valis on the Genesis. I finally got Valis III for the TG and have started playing through it. I don't remember the jumps being this stupid on the Genesis though. I hate that you basically have to use the slide to get over many of the gaps.
Syd of Valis... That silly game should have been a lot better.
Valis III is better in Turbo. THE POWERSLIDE IS AWESOME. Just accept it.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Sarumaru on December 28, 2014, 09:41:46 AM
Valis III is a great game in the series and by far my favorite. The music, the graphics and the visuals were all great. I still kind of feel like the controls could have been just wee bit tighter but you adjust to the timing. I really wanted to like 'A Fantasm Soldier' more but it felt a bit weak in the gameplay department compared to the MD version but graphics were still amazeballs. Valis II just makes me sad and Valis IV is kind of a borefest with a few sorta fun bits. So yeah, Valis III all the way.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on May 23, 2015, 12:14:59 PM
Valis III is a great game in the series and by far my favorite. The music, the graphics and the visuals were all great. I still kind of feel like the controls could have been just wee bit tighter but you adjust to the timing. I really wanted to like 'A Fantasm Soldier' more but it felt a bit weak in the gameplay department compared to the MD version but graphics were still amazeballs. Valis II just makes me sad and Valis IV is kind of a borefest with a few sorta fun bits. So yeah, Valis III all the way.
I think it is all a matter of perspective. If you compare Valis II to Turrican, for example...
It's only bad the first time you encounter it. Once you figure it out, it's a pretty awesome feeling.
:)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on May 23, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
Valis III is my favorite and really perfected the overall balance of what makes a Valis game signature "Valis". The Genesis version is also great and more polished for what is intact. I'm always surprised when people complain about the water stage, because that was where the game fully won me over and I always think back about that as one of the funnest sections.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on May 23, 2015, 02:52:57 PM
Valis III is my favorite and really perfected the overall balance of what makes a Valis game signature "Valis". The Genesis version is also great and more polished for what is intact. I'm always surprised when people complain about the water stage, because that was where the game fully won me over and I always think back about that as one of the funnest sections.
I agree 100% about it being a defining moment. :)
I always felt that the graphics of that level were friggin' sweet, too. It just had a great atmosphere and looked impressive... Combined with the platforming skills required, it was a defining moment.
:)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on May 23, 2015, 03:37:46 PM
Games like Daimakaimura have lots of cheap difficulty due to the randomness of respawning enemies in some chaotically designed stages.
Some Castlevania games have similar stretches as that Valis III stage, but again it is obvious that the developer just threw some stuff together and called it a day. That Valis III stage and other parts of the game aren't the absolute greatest action/platforming ever made, but it is solid satisfying challenge which is genuinely rewarding. Which positively encourages you to continue on through the game, instead of simply relieved that a random combo of elements finally lined up so that you no longer have to deal with a frustrating scenario.
This is the kind of stuff I love about video games, as opposed to the other kind I described, which I more just accept and put up with. Night Creatures is an entire game like that and it is rewarding to overcome that kind of challenge. But it only gets a free pass in high profile games or titles from the right developers/publishers. This difference is why I think that Wonderboy is so much better than Super Mario Bros, even though I appreciate SMB for what it is.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on May 23, 2015, 06:50:47 PM
The water level is awesome... my inability to master it is what sucks. :lol:
This!
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: seieienbu on May 23, 2015, 09:34:29 PM
I've only played 3 of them. I liked Valis 3 more than 2, and I liked both more than Super Valis. I've intended to get around to playing the other two PC Engine titles forever but have just never made time for them. Valis was never my favorite series; judging it by the three games that I played it was alright but not great.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on May 23, 2015, 10:35:08 PM
This thread needs a poll, doesn't it? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: thisIsLoneWolf on May 26, 2015, 09:51:53 AM
Valis III is my favorite and really perfected the overall balance of what makes a Valis game signature "Valis". The Genesis version is also great and more polished for what is intact. I'm always surprised when people complain about the water stage, because that was where the game fully won me over and I always think back about that as one of the funnest sections.
I agree 100% about it being a defining moment. :)
I always felt that the graphics of that level were friggin' sweet, too. It just had a great atmosphere and looked impressive... Combined with the platforming skills required, it was a defining moment.
:)
Agreed. The graphics on the water level are sweet. It appears in Valis IV too. Turrican't do this! :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on May 26, 2015, 09:53:23 AM
^^^^ :)
Turrican could never have an aquaduct level as beautiful as the one from Valis!
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: SuperDeadite on May 26, 2015, 11:37:27 PM
For PCE, I'm going with Valis I. Gameplay may not be the greatest, but the game itself is just more ''Valisly'' then the rest if you can understand that. School girl goes solo against all odds. Music is great too. When I just want to relax and have some fun I could seriously play the first stage over and over and over lol.
For the entire series, I think I have to give it to the X68000 version of Valis II. The game has horrid controls, but once you get used to it's weirdness, the style and design is really awesome. Most especially the violence. The original computer versions of Valis II are gory, no holds barred, and depressing as hell. The console versions were really toned down in dark content and it really weakens the story imo. Watching the insane shit Yuko goes through in the uncensored II is quite eye opening.
I also have a softspot for the MSX version of Valis I. It is a terrible game in every category, but I don't know I still like to play it now and then. There is nothing good about it at all, but I still enjoy it....lol.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on May 27, 2015, 12:38:30 AM
For PCE, I'm going with Valis I. Gameplay may not be the greatest, but the game itself is just more ''Valisly'' then the rest if you can understand that. School girl goes solo against all odds. Music is great too. When I just want to relax and have some fun I could seriously play the first stage over and over and over lol.
For the entire series, I think I have to give it to the X68000 version of Valis II. The game has horrid controls, but once you get used to it's weirdness, the style and design is really awesome. Most especially the violence. The original computer versions of Valis II are gory, no holds barred, and depressing as hell. The console versions were really toned down in dark content and it really weakens the story imo. Watching the insane shit Yuko goes through in the uncensored II is quite eye opening.
I also have a softspot for the MSX version of Valis I. It is a terrible game in every category, but I don't know I still like to play it now and then. There is nothing good about it at all, but I still enjoy it....lol.
The PCE Valis I was the last one released, so it sounds like it shows some polish. I just never found Valis I particularly engaging compared to Valis III (switching 3 characters! I liked all three, wish the game was longer).
The atmosphere and music in Valis II is a fave, but level design very basic and very short easy game overall.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on May 27, 2015, 04:24:48 AM
Nulli, I'd suggest having a look at HG101's Valis article for some T&A. Oh and yes, there's some comprehensive information on all the computer and console ports as well.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on May 27, 2015, 09:37:28 AM
Nulli, I'd suggest having a look at HG101's Valis article for some T&A. Oh and yes, there's some comprehensive information on all the computer and console ports as well.
Yes, certainly NSFW. Hard to believe this happened to a game character, officially.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: SuperDeadite on May 27, 2015, 12:50:07 PM
Not talking about Valis X. Talking about the Japanese computer versions of Valis II (PC98, MSX, X68000) they are totally different things lol.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on May 27, 2015, 01:51:37 PM
Nulli, I'd suggest having a look at HG101's Valis article for some T&A. Oh and yes, there's some comprehensive information on all the computer and console ports as well.
Yes, certainly NSFW. Hard to believe this happened to a game character, officially.
That kind of stuff happened way more often than you think, apparently. Even in PCE games.
Before making Dragon Quest, Enix made a game in which you hunt for toddlers in bondage, so that you can take their clothes off.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: geise on May 27, 2015, 01:58:12 PM
Not talking about Valis X. Talking about the Japanese computer versions of Valis II (PC98, MSX, X68000) they are totally different things lol.
LOL! That they are.
For nostalgia and music I have to go with Valis III. IV is so very close behind. I like all of the pc-e games for different reasons. I think Phantasm Soldier controls the best. II has better voice acting than III and also amazing music.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on May 27, 2015, 03:41:22 PM
The best one, to me, is the Super CD remake of Valis 1, Mugen Senshi Valis. You can definitely tell it's an upgrade from Valis 2-4 (which is are standard CD-ROM2 games)
I'm in the same boat. It's just so much more gooder
I do like Valis 3 as well though.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on June 19, 2015, 12:46:20 PM
I only have Valis I and III, and am only close to beating III (Valis II is on the way). I have this sneaking suspicion that one of the series' hallmarks is spawning enemies right at ledges in order to knock you back into a cheap death. At least, this seems to be one of the defining features of Valis III!
I suspect I might like Valis I more, but it's too early to tell.
I watched some longplays of Valis II on the home computers - the story is delightfully dark and bleak (and the booming FM synths of the X68000 help with this atmosphere), though not so much that it is some random gore/sex fest. It's a shame that the game looks like it controls about as well as a three-legged horse in a Chuck-E-Cheese ballpit.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on June 19, 2015, 01:51:09 PM
I only have Valis I and III, and am only close to beating III (Valis II is on the way). I have this sneaking suspicion that one of the series' hallmarks is spawning enemies right at ledges in order to knock you back into a cheap death. At least, this seems to be one of the defining features of Valis III!
I suspect I might like Valis I more, but it's too early to tell.
I watched some longplays of Valis II on the home computers - the story is delightfully dark and bleak (and the booming FM synths of the X68000 help with this atmosphere), though not so much that it is some random gore/sex fest. It's a shame that the game looks like it controls about as well as a three-legged horse in a Chuck-E-Cheese ballpit.
Valis II has short, rather basic level design. I feel that, with minimal extra effort, additional stages (or, extended stages) with more creative platforming challenges would have elevated the game. I am not even asking for new graphics/themes...just simply more interesting/challenging moments.
I am in the minority, I think, but the PCE Red Book is fantastic in Valis II and really helps foster the perfect atmosphere for the game. I just wish some of the tracks were longer. BUT EVERY SONG KICKS MY ASS. Sadly, most people feel otherwise (they feel every tune sucks my arse).
Anyway, I'm not a fool, I know that Valis II is not a AAA title.
However, it falls into the category of "games you love"
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on June 19, 2015, 02:17:53 PM
Valis II has s great soundtrack and the sound used perfectly compliments it.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on June 19, 2015, 03:40:46 PM
Valis II has s great soundtrack and the sound used perfectly compliments it.
Maybe I'll get Valis II just as a music CD. I don't really care for the gameplay from what I've seen.
Valis I has been on my to get list for ages. I'll get lucky one day.
I've played Valis III and IV on PCE (and III on MD too) and I think Valis III takes the cake. It just feels like the developers were "into it" more with III with its atmosphere, characters, and level design.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on June 19, 2015, 05:27:27 PM
Valis II has s great soundtrack and the sound used perfectly compliments it.
Maybe I'll get Valis II just as a music CD. I don't really care for the gameplay from what I've seen.
Valis I has been on my to get list for ages. I'll get lucky one day.
I've played Valis III and IV on PCE (and III on MD too) and I think Valis III takes the cake. It just feels like the developers were "into it" more with III with its atmosphere, characters, and level design.
Listen to the soundtrack to see if it is your cup of tea.
But, I definitely think Valis II is worthy of a few play-throughs...I just wish it was more challenging.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on June 19, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Valis 2 was my first cd game BITD, so I'm a bit biased. Still, fantastic soundtrack whether you like the game or not. It's mainly the 3rd & 4th levels I find to be dull.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ShadowKitty777 on June 21, 2015, 10:52:18 PM
Between 1 and 4 on the PC Engine for me.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on June 22, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
For someone who's never played a game in the series, where do you think is the best place to start? Is the story laid out in a manner that lends itself to being played chronologically, in a understandable language, or is it best to play the fourth game first in a language I don't speak?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on June 22, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
The story doesn't matter. Valis II and III are in (really bad) English but you don't miss out, because each game is essentially "Yuko vs. Monster-of-the-Week."
I don't even know if chronologically even matters for a casual look at the series. Valis I was the penultimate game in the series and is leaps and bounds above Valis II in playability (and from my experience, Valis III as well).
I think that Valis III is not a bad place to start by being cheaper (The JPN release anyhow), though I think playing Valis I will get you the gist of the whole shebang.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on June 22, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
For someone who's never played a game in the series, where do you think is the best place to start? Is the story laid out in a manner that lends itself to being played chronologically, in a understandable language, or is it best to play the fourth game first in a language I don't speak?
As EmoerorIng stated, it really doesn't matter where you start.
If you wanted to give the series a fair chance, I would say that Valis III is a stronger title than most of the others.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on July 16, 2015, 08:25:38 AM
So I just beat Valis I last night, rounding out the trilogy of PCE-CD Valis games.
I still think it's the strongest game in the series, but one facet of the series got old really quick: bosses are impossible to kill unless you are adequately powered up. If you die twice to Rogles at the end of the game, give up trying to beat the game; you aren't going to make it.
The damage sponging was pretty ridiculous, and slowly powering down your character as you die is ok except when it spawns you right at the boss with no opportunity to regain strength.
The series is a master of frustration; I'm not sure if I want to jump into Valis IV or not. This might be a series I like in concept more than I like in execution. ](*,)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 17, 2015, 02:05:09 PM
Out of the ones I've played, I'd rank them as follows.
Valis 1 PCE (closest the series ever got to achieving greatness) Valis 3 GEN (plays better and looks better than the PCE version. Some of the music sounds better, as well) Valis 3 PCE Valis 4 PCE (painfully average) Valis 4 SNES Valis 2 PCE (level design is as dull as it gets, and the bosses are a complete pushover) Valis 2 MSX/X68K/PC-88 (unplayable. That PC-88 soundtrack is one for the ages, though)
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 17, 2015, 05:43:09 PM
Out of the ones I've played, I'd rank them as follows.
Valis 1 PCE (closest the series ever got to achieving greatness) Valis 3 GEN (plays better and looks better than the PCE version. Some of the music sounds better, as well) Valis 3 PCE Valis 4 PCE (painfully average) Valis 4 SNES Valis 2 PCE (level design is as dull as it gets, and the bosses are a complete pushover) Valis 2 MSX/X68K/PC-88 (unplayable. That PC-88 soundtrack is one for the ages, though)
I would flip Genesis and TG-16 versions of Valis III (edge goes to OBEY).
Also, I have to replay Valis 1 (Genny & PCE)...but I don't think it is better than Valis III on TG-16.
:)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 17, 2015, 07:27:09 PM
Genesis version of Valis III has fewer bullshit moments in it than the ob3y, IMO (I absolutely loathe those water stages in the TG-16...) That combined with the superior aesthetics and controls cinch it for me.
The main thing that cements Valis 1's place is that it's the least flawed of any Valis. It's just an all-around solidly designed game. Might be more of a 'respect' thing than anything else, though... admittedly, I do play Valis III a lot more often. :mrgreen:
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 18, 2015, 12:45:35 AM
Genesis version of Valis III has fewer bullshit moments in it than the ob3y, IMO (I absolutely loathe those water stages in the TG-16...) That combined with the superior aesthetics and controls cinch it for me.
The main thing that cements Valis 1's place is that it's the least flawed of any Valis. It's just an all-around solidly designed game. Might be more of a 'respect' thing than anything else, though... admittedly, I do play Valis III a lot more often. :mrgreen:
I hear you. A lot of folks would agree with you on all points, too. I'll focus on Aquaduct, since it is infamous. :)
I think it comes down to a "love it or hate it" binary...
(1) Valis III has the Aquaduct Stage (and other shorter sequences) that are challenging. The (a) strategy to proceed might not be immediately obvious and/or (b) the platforming skills require some practice. Or a lot of practice. :)
(2) Although Valis III has these frustrating platforming sequences, some of them are so memorable, I consider them hallmarks of platforming (first you have to figure out a strategy, then you have to perfect it). To me, the Aquaduct Stage is a fantastic moment of platforming history. It stumped me when I first got the game, and I loved, absolutely loved, when I figured out what I was supposed to do. Then, I spent a long time perfecting the technique. It was so satisfying.
(3) There are many other moments in the game like this: a genuine platforming puzzle that you simply can't spam your way out of (magic, special weapons). You can't brute force your way through either (where you simply rely on your health reserves to deplete at a lower rate than the enemy you are attacking).
BOTTOM LINE: Valis III forces you to experiment with three characters, experimenting with their physical traits as well as their different magic attacks...Aquaduct is a defining stage in platforming history.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 18, 2015, 06:56:28 AM
Genesis version of Valis III has fewer bullshit moments in it than the ob3y, IMO (I absolutely loathe those water stages in the TG-16...) That combined with the superior aesthetics and controls cinch it for me.
The main thing that cements Valis 1's place is that it's the least flawed of any Valis. It's just an all-around solidly designed game. Might be more of a 'respect' thing than anything else, though... admittedly, I do play Valis III a lot more often. :mrgreen:
Although I love the Genesis version, it has fewer "bullshit" moments because it has much less content in general. Although they did a great job polishing up the visual assets which made it into the Genesis/Mega Drive game, there is so much more in the Turbo/PCE version, plus the quality of the music and cinemas. So it's not nearly so cut and dry as choosing to only compare the small amount of shared aspects and ignoring the majority of the game. I think that having about twice as much content and aesthetics, especially considering the quality of much of what is exclusive to the Turbo/PCE version, heavily favors it as having the better aesthetics. That's also ignoring the compromised player sprites in the Genesis/MD version.
For some reason, level 1 on the genesis looks waaaay better than the turbo-cd version. They really messed up the background color palettes.
The reason for aspects that are more polished on the Genesis version is that it is a port of the Turbo/PCE version. There are many shared-content comparisons online and we already have the one in the screenshot comparison thread.
The point is, is the stage in the Genesis version '5 stages + more' better than the same stage in the Turbo/PCE version? If the Genesis/MD version looks better overall in up to 6 stages, but in around 6 other stages it simply does not exist, that doesn't really balance out in its favor. Plus several of the stages where the Genesis version adds parallax, it loses detail and various assets.
Getting back to that intro stage, the layer you walk on is less detailed on Genesis, the water towers look much worse, the large and medium sized building artwork is missing, the neon size is not as nice and the sky no longer lights up.
Also, don't forget that the Genesis version moves like molasses, as though it's running on SNES. It's so slow that the player animation looks hokey, as though you are watching someone pretend to run in slow-mo.
Have none of the new guys commenting on these games actually played them? :P
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 18, 2015, 12:47:14 PM
As illustrated in those shots, the Genesis has the better detailed backgrounds, more layers of scrolling, and a less dim color palette. The issue of cut content does not factor into this equation. Advantage goes to Genesis.
Music is a toss-up. Some tracks are better on the Genny, some the PCE. If I was forced to choose, I'd probably give the edge to the Genesis, just because it has this.
Regarding the cut content... normally this would be a problem, but since the aqueduct section was part of what got trimmed, I'd argue this is a positive. :P
Curiously, you didn't bring up the controls in any of your rebuttals, and it's easy to see why. The PCE version is clunky and less responsive in comparison, there's no denying this. Genesis has a dedicated button for sliding, less delay on projectiles, magic comes out quicker, certain magic attacks are more effective, smoother jumping, you can turn around while in crouched position without standing up (later levels in the PCE version can be quite frustrating due to the lack of this ability)... as important as aesthetics are, gameplay is king, and even if the PCE did have the superior aesthetics, I'd still pick the Genny over it for that reason alone.
Again, I'm not knocking the PCE game, it's one of the more enjoyable Valis titles, to be sure. Just that it's outclassed by its Genesis counterpart, is all.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 18, 2015, 10:14:04 PM
Music is a toss-up. Some tracks are better on the Genny, some the PCE. If I was forced to choose, I'd probably give the edge to the Genesis, just because it has this
That is a great song and it sounds very nice in MegaDrive/Genesis :)
Of course, it sounds better here: http://junk.tg-16.com/audio/Valis_III/06-Level_1.mp3
Seriously, though, I love hearing both versions (I should find the PC versions, too...I may have listened to them years ago, but I can't remember anything).
THE MORE, the better.
Quote
Regarding the cut content... normally this would be a problem, but since the aqueduct section was part of what got trimmed, I'd argue this is a positive. :P
Curiously, you didn't bring up the controls...
(1) Since I consider the Aquaduct to be one of the greatest moments of platforming, the cut cripples the Genesis version. MegaDrive Valis III will forever be runner-up. De facto. Ad finitum. Silver medal.
(2) I have not had a side-by-side comparison, so I guess the controls for the Genny version could be tighter. However, I have never had an issue with the controls in the PCE game, even the finicky Aquaduct stage that everyone whinges about...so this is a non-issue for me. Valis games tend to have "floaty" controls, in general, which I am fine with.
Naturally, I love that you are defending the Genny version. It makes me want to play the two side-by-side :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on July 19, 2015, 09:28:02 AM
Look, brother, I know you are new around here but I wouldn't be so quick to judge. The majority of people in this particular forum are fairly non-biased towards any console.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: tool on July 19, 2015, 10:18:12 AM
sorry for short post. valis 1 was the best one for me, but yet again I have never played valis 4 or valis 3 on genesis.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 19, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
To obey or not to obey, that is the question.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gentlegamer on July 19, 2015, 09:44:13 PM
I only have Valis 1 for Genesis, I've never played it. Is it any good?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 20, 2015, 12:37:47 AM
I only have Valis 1 for Genesis, I've never played it. Is it any good?
It's better than Syd of Valis.
Or is it?
I think so. I actually had the MD Phantasm Soldier before I got the PC-Engine version (which is way better), but it's good in it's own right. As for Syd Valis I just couldn't get into it.
Hey Spooky, just so you know Black Tiger is also a big Genesis fan. So, he is not being biased at all. It's all opinion anyways. I do agree with a lot of your comments regarding the Genesis version, especially with the controls. I like a lot of the backgrounds more on the Genesis version as well. With that said I still enjoy the PC-Engine version more. It feels like a more complete game to me with all the levels.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 20, 2015, 02:53:53 PM
Hey Spooky, just so you know Black Tiger is also a big Genesis fan. So, he is not being biased at all. It's all opinion anyways. I do agree with a lot of your comments regarding the Genesis version, especially with the controls. I like a lot of the backgrounds more on the Genesis version as well. With that said I still enjoy the PC-Engine version more. It feels like a more complete game to me with all the levels.
Hey, if some people prefer the PC Engine version due to the extra content or the increased difficulty, I can totally appreciate that. I only took issue with BT downplaying the clear cut graphical superiority of the Genesis port by arguing that "more assets = better assets", that was all. At the end of the day, both are fine ways to play Valis III, and everyone should experience both. That we can all agree on.
You should, dude! I've been playing both of them back-to-back lately, to see if I can clear both of them in one sitting. Have yet to pull it off , though. :mrgreen:
On a side note, I've been revisiting the various computer versions of Valis II over the past couple days. Man, what wasted potential. I may have been a bit too harsh by labeling them "unplayable", but those controls are absolutely insufferable, especially in the X68000 port.
Shame too, as there's some great gameplay ideas there, and I must concur with Supes that the style and atmosphere of the PC Valis II's are unrivaled. If they'd combined the best parts of each port, like say... the graphical style of the MSX2, the soundtrack and comparative smoothness of the PC-98, and the cutscenes & balanced difficulty of the X68K, I'd put it above those snoozefests Valis IV and Valis II PCE easily. As it is, it's just a missed opportunity... :(
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on July 21, 2015, 07:49:48 AM
Hey Spooky, just so you know Black Tiger is also a big Genesis fan. So, he is not being biased at all. It's all opinion anyways. I do agree with a lot of your comments regarding the Genesis version, especially with the controls. I like a lot of the backgrounds more on the Genesis version as well. With that said I still enjoy the PC-Engine version more. It feels like a more complete game to me with all the levels.
Although I would argue that the quality difference is hardly clear cut. Disregarding the extra content on the PCE, I think the palette is generally better (blues and greens especially). I've always felt that the genesis's palette is often desaturated or reds-dominate. I would say for a game like Valis the style lends itself to the brighter and more uniformly saturated hueys of the PCE. Of course this is a matter of openion, but I would hardly call it clear cut. Also, as Black Tiger pointed out, there are ares on PCE that have more scrolling than genesis, so to say that is a win for Genesis is fairly moot.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 21, 2015, 01:35:41 PM
This is the sort of debate that I like on this forum.
IT'S ABOUT THE DAMN GAMES.
:)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 21, 2015, 01:36:20 PM
I actually like Syd of Valis more than Valis 1 for Genesis.
Yeah, I'm not s big fan of either....so I can't really be fair unless I played 'em side-by-side.
But neither one impresses me much.
I feel that Death Duel has aged much better. I know, totally random, but I was just playing Death Duel. And I still love this damn game. It prevented me from trying any Valis games in Genny.
Trü storie.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 22, 2015, 04:57:21 AM
Clearcut unbiased logic that only blind fanboys would disagree with:
Parallax: 1<2
Sprites palettes for 3 unique characters: 1>3
Stages 6>12
Speed 65%>100%
Cinemas 8>16
Redbook = uninspired chip tunes
Quote
What's that? Couldn't quite hear you over all the BLAST PROCESSING
I take it that Blast Processing is a term you vaguely remember from the article on reddit where you first learned of the Sega Genesis a year or two ago? It's not the ability to scroll two tile layers independently, the Genesis had that ability in hardware from day one. It would have been a terrible marketing idea to brag about the Genesis being able to scroll one less layer than SNES.
Blast Processing is a technique developed for Sonic 2 which literally scrolls 2D games as fast as the Genesis is able to. Sega did not share this technique with third parties and Valis III is actually an early game which predates Blast Processing by a year and a half.
It's a good thing that Valis III doesn't use Blast Processing, because as it is, the game runs noticeably slower than an early unpolished third party PC Engine game.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on July 22, 2015, 07:53:43 AM
Clearcut unbiased logic that only blind fanboys would disagree with:
Parallax: 1<2
Sprites palettes for 3 unique characters: 1>3
Stages 6>12
Speed 65%>100%
Cinemas 8>16
Redbook = uninspired chip tunes
Quote
What's that? Couldn't quite hear you over all the BLAST PROCESSING
I take it that Blast Processing is a term you vaguely remember from the article on reddit where you first learned of the Sega Genesis a year or two ago? It's not the ability to scroll two tile layers independently, the Genesis had that ability in hardware from day one. It would have been a terrible marketing idea to brag about the Genesis being able to scroll one less layer than SNES.
Blast Processing is a technique developed for Sonic 2 which literally scrolls 2D games as fast as the Genesis is able to. Sega did not share this technique with third parties and Valis III is actually an early game which predates Blast Processing by a year and a half.
It's a good thing that Valis III doesn't use Blast Processing, because as it is, the game runs noticeably slower than an early unpolished third party PC Engine game.
This discussion is so rad, and in full disclosure I've yet to play a Valis game, and this certainly is inspiring me to flex my newly acquired TED to check them out :D
I had always assumed the term "Blast Processing" was a buzzword they used, like explosive gameplay or far out graphics. I thought they just wanted to convey that Sonic was super fast, and only genesis could make it so fast - not that it was an actual technique used by developers. I remember seeing it at the time and thinking, as a 12 year old kid, that it made all Sega games faster for sure - so it must've worked!
I do think, unbiased towards platform and based on screenshots, the color and execution in the PCE sprites is much more favorable for Valis' look.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 22, 2015, 08:38:38 AM
I had always assumed the term "Blast Processing" was a buzzword
It is just a buzzword.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 22, 2015, 08:56:48 AM
With something like "Blast Processing", it doesn't matter how it was done if it wasn't the promise of additional hardware which didn't actually exist. Just like how He-Man/MotU for Intellivision features "New! SuperGraphics".
Right up to recently, homebrew developers have been figuring out all kinds of crazy techniques to do things with stock Genesis hardware that no one would have believed possible before. Like Wolfenstien 3D, Mario Kart/F-Zero and Star Fox. The programming techniques involved created results which would have been impressive if accelerator chips had been used.
But Sega explained bitd what Blast Processing resulted in. What was actually happening under the hood* would have been as much jibberish to the average gamer as explaining the process if rendering a single sprite on-screen.
*the way I've heard it described is that it helped the Genesis do more faster by rendering more like a PC Engine.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 22, 2015, 10:27:24 AM
I don't care if there's a technical background made up later on. I place my bets on that the people who invented that marketing campaign had no idea of actual Genesis specs, but blast processing sounds violently cool even in retrospective.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: tool on July 22, 2015, 12:44:27 PM
"blast processing" is only achieved in CD format only correct? Carts don't have that possibility afaik.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 22, 2015, 12:55:16 PM
Sorry for taking things on a case-by-case basis, as opposed to assuming that CD quality audio is inherently superior to chiptune in all circumstances. I bet you think the soundtrack to Hellfire S is superior to the Genesis port, too. :roll:
I take it that Blast Processing is a term you vaguely remember from the article on reddit where you first learned of the Sega Genesis a year or two ago? It's not the ability to scroll two tile layers independently
Cute, but I've been a Genesis fan for 20 years, thank you. And I'm quite aware that Valis III doesn't utilize blast processing, I was making a joke. Not that I should expect humorless people to pick up on that. :wink:
You're doing a great job of avoiding the issue of the Genesis version having tighter controls, btw. Then again, aesthetics are clearly more important than how a game actually plays, right?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on July 22, 2015, 04:09:16 PM
You're doing a great job of avoiding the issue of the Genesis version having tighter controls, btw. Then again, aesthetics are clearly more important than how a game actually plays, right?
Danm, no Mega EverDrive and no copy and Valis III makes me pull out of this argument :(
I suppose I could attempt a completely speculative obey-nion, hack together an case for PCE Controllers vs Genny controllers, or try and make a ugly hacked together knock off of Estaban's turricant "PCE Valis Does What Gennicant" or something.. Guess I got to at least try the PCE versions before my next thread contribution hahah
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: geise on July 23, 2015, 07:52:44 AM
Lol. Spooky you're still rantin'?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Arkhan on July 23, 2015, 08:16:27 AM
how do you guys judge parallax quality by looking at a still-shot?
Sounds retarded to me.
lol
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Punch on July 23, 2015, 10:47:45 AM
Blast Processing.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 23, 2015, 11:41:24 AM
Dammit, I have a lot more popcorn and everything has simmered down and become peaceful in this thread.
Damn.
Now I'll have to antagonize folks in other threads (hmmm...Retro VGS...)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 23, 2015, 01:38:16 PM
how do you guys judge parallax quality by looking at a still-shot?
You'll have to ask that other guy. I've actually played Valis III...
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: A Black Falcon on July 23, 2015, 04:19:08 PM
I know I've said it before, but on my list there is no such thing as a good Valis game. I find them all bad in some really annoying ways. Probably the least bad one is Valis IV for Turbo CD, though. It has better graphics, gameplay, and level designs than the previous games... but it's still really frustrating and stops being fun too often. The enemies are so annoying with how they attack you the instant they appear on the screen -- it's as much a memorizer series as it is platformer! And the bosses are often really hard, too, and then send you all the way back to the beginning of the level when you get game over. (Or, for Syd of Valis on Genesis, back to the beginning of the game because that one has no continues or saving.)
The fartherst I've gotten in a Valis game is to the final boss in the SNES version of Valis IV, but I eventually gave up because of how hard the bosses are; I got tired of that boss gauntlet in the final stage, and eventually turned it off... and of course no saving means I'd have to replay the whole game to get back to that point, and I've never wanted to do it. Passwords would have been nice! The TCD versions of Valis II through IV at least do save your game, that's a huge plus for those three... though why they then cut saving out of the last TCD game, the Valis I remake, I have no idea. Unfortunate move there. I did eventually get the TCD version of Valis IV, it's better than the SNES one (removing the other playable characters is the other big issue with the SNES version, and removing the story too of course)... but as I've said, it's still really frustrating. I presume Valis fans like that kind of difficulty.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on July 23, 2015, 04:50:42 PM
Ha, not necessarily. All the games have their share of balance issues.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on July 24, 2015, 12:28:21 AM
I know I've said it before, but on my list there is no such thing as a good Valis game. I find them all bad in some really annoying ways. Probably the least bad one is Valis IV for Turbo CD, though. It has better graphics, gameplay, and level designs than the previous games... but it's still really frustrating and stops being fun too often. The enemies are so annoying with how they attack you the instant they appear on the screen -- it's as much a memorizer series as it is platformer! And the bosses are often really hard, too, and then send you all the way back to the beginning of the level when you get game over. (Or, for Syd of Valis on Genesis, back to the beginning of the game because that one has no continues or saving.)
The fartherst I've gotten in a Valis game is to the final boss in the SNES version of Valis IV, but I eventually gave up because of how hard the bosses are; I got tired of that boss gauntlet in the final stage, and eventually turned it off... and of course no saving means I'd have to replay the whole game to get back to that point, and I've never wanted to do it. Passwords would have been nice! The TCD versions of Valis II through IV at least do save your game, that's a huge plus for those three... though why they then cut saving out of the last TCD game, the Valis I remake, I have no idea. Unfortunate move there. I did eventually get the TCD version of Valis IV, it's better than the SNES one (removing the other playable characters is the other big issue with the SNES version, and removing the story too of course)... but as I've said, it's still really frustrating. I presume Valis fans like that kind of difficulty.
Heh, I've beaten Valis II and III. I own a surprising number of games in the series. Valis 1 on Famicom and Genesis. Valis 2 for TG CD, Valis III for Genesis and TG CD, Super Valis IV and Syd of Valis. With all of those Valis games you would think I would be a big fan of the series but ... not really.
They're kind of a poor man's Ninja Gaiden or Castlevania to me. There's certainly things I like about the series like the art, the cutscenes, the music, some of the backgrounds, but none of the games in the series I've played gel together well enough to be that super satisfying gameplay experience that would be right up my alley.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on July 24, 2015, 12:01:24 PM
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on July 24, 2015, 12:20:50 PM
Nice piece of trivia for fans of Valis and Hideaki Anno^ Now, you should still fire up an emulator and play a Valis game I think if you really want to jump into the conversation.
=== At the very least all this discussion is making me want to pick up Valis III (and Valis I why not) on the Genesis and see if I like it more than the turbo cd. But maybe I should stick it out and play Valis IV first, lol.
On a side note, I've been revisiting the various computer versions of Valis II over the past couple days. Man, what wasted potential. I may have been a bit too harsh by labeling them "unplayable", but those controls are absolutely insufferable, especially in the X68000 port.
Shame too, as there's some great gameplay ideas there, and I must concur with Supes that the style and atmosphere of the PC Valis II's are unrivaled. If they'd combined the best parts of each port, like say... the graphical style of the MSX2, the soundtrack and comparative smoothness of the PC-98, and the cutscenes & balanced difficulty of the X68K, I'd put it above those snoozefests Valis IV and Valis II PCE easily. As it is, it's just a missed opportunity... :(
I think "missed opportunity" sums up the computer Valis II game very well, though I think it still ranks towards the top for me. It has the most interesting ideas and level designs (having finally played all the main PC-Engine titles), the best soundtrack, and as you said the best story. Unfortunately, the awful jumping and weird janky enemy movement and glitches hamper what could have been an action game to remember (for all the right reasons).
I wouldn't even call the Sharp port unplayable, just it took a hell of a lot of time to get used to, after many, many deaths on the first stage before I understood how its jumping worked. Thank goodness for emulators and savestates.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: roflmao on July 24, 2015, 01:36:16 PM
Gredler, that was awesome!
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Gredler on July 24, 2015, 01:44:43 PM
Thank you but I can't take any credit, except for seeing it and instantly thinking that it would be more appreciated here than anywhere else I could think of. Subscribe to that dude's youtube if you want to contribute thanks, he seems like a nice guy and gives unbiased openions about a lot of games!
I am so dumb and feel dumber for not knowing that the PCE Valis games were all discs, so when I sat down to try out Valis games last night much to my dismay I realized my EverDrive wont provide me that ability. I dont know when I'll find the time to sit down and burn a copy, but I will burn them as soon as I can and try them. This is one of those series I've seen pop in and out of the media I consume since childhood. I remember screenshots in GamePro and EGM and wishing I had a chance to try it.
I am going to start with the Valis 1 remake I think despite everyone's welcome suggestions, I really feel like I should see what the beginning of the story was trying to put forth. Since I am going to be going the shady rout to play them, my pocketbook only allows such, I figure I should start at the beginning.
Thanks for the conversation guys, it has only fueled the fire of desire I've felt to play this series for a long time, but that sentence makes me consider starting at Valis X. From shit to legit, right?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on July 24, 2015, 01:50:01 PM
Quote
You're doing a great job of avoiding the issue of the Genesis version having tighter controls, btw
This thread inspired me to play Valis III on both PCE and Mega Drive to see some differences. During the 1st level the controls sent me into a pit nearly 6-7 times in the Mega Drive version. The PCE version sent me into a pit about 3 times. I think the game obviously feels better on PCE.
During the production of that commercial I wonder how many of the male animators snuck certain stills of Yoko into the nearest unoccupied bathroom for a little hanky panky?
Thank you but I can't take any credit, except for seeing it and instantly thinking that it would be more appreciated here than anywhere else I could think of. Subscribe to that dude's youtube if you want to contribute thanks, he seems like a nice guy and gives unbiased openions about a lot of games!
I am so dumb and feel dumber for not knowing that the PCE Valis games were all discs, so when I sat down to try out Valis games last night much to my dismay I realized my EverDrive wont provide me that ability. I dont know when I'll find the time to sit down and burn a copy, but I will burn them as soon as I can and try them. This is one of those series I've seen pop in and out of the media I consume since childhood. I remember screenshots in GamePro and EGM and wishing I had a chance to try it.
I am going to start with the Valis 1 remake I think despite everyone's welcome suggestions, I really feel like I should see what the beginning of the story was trying to put forth. Since I am going to be going the shady rout to play them, my pocketbook only allows such, I figure I should start at the beginning.
Thanks for the conversation guys, it has only fueled the fire of desire I've felt to play this series for a long time, but that sentence makes me consider starting at Valis X. From shit to legit, right?
Satoshi Matrix's videos are awesome. I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned so much from watching his channel. But don't ever buy videogames from that guy. His prices are ridiculous. Way beyond average completed listings on eBay.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 24, 2015, 10:03:27 PM
Isn't the Demon Lord called Loveless instead of "Rogles"?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 24, 2015, 11:17:13 PM
I just want to state again:
Spooky gets my utmost respect for actually talking about the nitty gritty of the Valis games.
:)
DIFFERENT SUB-TOPIC: If you read the comments for the Valis commercial/promo video Gredler linked to, you'll notice that someone mentions a ROM hack to make the Famicom Valis more playable.
(1) I have not tried it, but even with a ROM jack, I have my doubts as to how much fun Famicom Valis could be. Of course, I hope I am 100% wrong
(2) Would superdeadite (or anyone) know about a hacked/modified version of X68000 Valis II that offers a different control scheme?
(3) is it fair to say that, in general, the console versions stay true to the original PC story lines? Obviously, I am not expecting you to pick up on subtle nuances that are different, but rather, major plot points.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 25, 2015, 02:29:02 AM
(2) Would superdeadite (or anyone) know about a hacked/modified version of X68000 Valis II that offers a different control scheme?
If superdeadite links me to an X68K Valis II hack that controls half as good as the PC-98, I will bear his children.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on July 26, 2015, 01:42:27 PM
Okay, no more extreme blanket statements from Spooky without explanation, here is how these games actually play and what the differences actually are.
This will only cover the in-game stuff. Lots of cinemas are missing in the Mega Drive version, but what it includes is arguably the best of any 16-bit cartridge game.
General differences:
The PC Engine version has voice acting before each boss battle.
The players sprites and scrolling move much slower in the Mega Drive version.
In both the MD and PC Engine versions, the player sprite won't jump until fully landed. Slashing also requires timing. Both are fine soon after adjusting and suit the gameplay/stage design. While performing a series of consecutive jumps, for both high and normal, I missed more in the MD version, but it really does seem to just be a matter of getting used to not hitting jump again until you land.
Horizontal jumps seem harder to pull off in the MD version and the jumps look longer in the PCE version, but it's difficult to tell because of the slow speed of the MD version.
In the PC Engine version, if you use the full power of Yuko's sword slash, you cannot swipe again until the first projectile disappears or hits something. If you do this on an empty screen, it may seem like there is a delay between your first swing and a continued rapid swinging afterward, should you rapidly continue hitting the sword button. But in an actual gameplay situation, if you are wildly slashing at an enemy without strategy, the first projectile will reset upon impact, followed by consecutive slashes. If there is still distance between you and the enemy during the second slash, as it approaches you, then the time between impact and triggering the next slash with only be shorter. If you aren't timing your swings effectively and are just button mashing or using Turbo switches, then your attacks will always shoot the shortest projectile.
In the Mega Drive version, the sword slash projectile travels faster, but there is still the noticeable delay between a full powered slash and a consecutive fastest/shortest slash. Unfortunately, the MD version cuts off your projectile slash altogether should you button mash. This leaves your rapid swings completely useless until an enemy is already within collision distance to hurt you. Rapid fire in the PCE version still produces a projectile just long enough to hit an enemy before they're already walking over you.
Example: the very first fire breathing enemy of the first stage. If you are against the wall and facing the enemy and slash rapidly, you will not hit it, even though you and you sword swing are directly in-front of it. Rapid firing in the PCE version would damage an enemy that is further away than this.
MD: players share palette, HUD, explosions, misc enemy attacks and icons/powerups all share from same palette. This translates to flesh-colored explosions, lower-shade yellow coloring in-place of golden coloring on objects, some fire effects are just yellow. Yuko and Valna may be twins, but Cham takes a brutal hit using the same skin tones. Cham's sprite is also censored in the Genesis version.
MD: Player can turn left or right while crouching. Since the game wasn't designed around this being a feature, it doesn't have a use in the game, other than attempting to position yourself dangerously close to a static enemy. But chances are you will not be able to safely hit the enemy from that position because of the sword slash issues.
MD: It feels weird having to reach up to the start button to continue text and you'll often end up pausing and un-pausing the game a few times after each text segment finishes.
Holding down to slide feels most natural and should have been down + jump, while descending from platforms should have used an alternate command.
City Stage:
The thrilling bgm of the PCE version is slower and unenthusiastic in the MD version. The slow pace better matches the slower pace of the game, but it also lacks the intensity of the original and just feels unenthusiastic and more just obligatory. You can actually hear how the imaginary musician is struggling to pull off the solos.
Both have a gibberish far background.
PCE has mid-sized buildings and animated fiery sky.
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
New layers of parallax. Looks particularly nice in the first short section, where Yuko runs along in her pajamas.
Even though Yuko's pajama sprite is used in an isolated section, it still suffers from taking colors only from the shared player sprite palette.
While falling to catch the Sword of Valis, the skyscraper on the left looks like it's made of stone in the MD version.
Lots of lost color and variety in bg.
Water towers take a big hit and look too much like the background, as if it is missing vertical strips.
New enemy layout.
Blue insect moves slower.
Fire-breathing enemy's fire attack no longer looks like fire and is just a generic yellow taken from Yuko's sword slash colors. If you attack while ducking beneath the "fire" attack, you will take damage. Combined with the rapid fire issue of the Genesis version, this leads to you taking damage before you get a single projectile hit on the enemy, before you go back to swinging your sword hitting nothing but air, until you take another hit and repeating until one of you dies first.
Boss adds new difficult-to-dodge attacks, introducing "bullshit" moments. Nice graphical additions to the boss.
PCE version has a better neon sign with much more light animation and color.
Supposed to not be a real stage, so it's a waste to update the boss but not extend the stage, considering how much content is cut overall compared to the PCE version.
PC ENGINE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 1: Cliffs/Waterfall:
One of the nicest looking stages in the game and one of my favorite to play. Very nice color cycling effect on the waterfall.
Forest:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
The bgm of this stage probably holds up second best compared to the original. Still loses that nice motivational pacing, but not tired sounding like the previous stage's bgm.
New layers of parallax, particularly effective in the forest segment. Some background assets are missing and some new ones are added and everything is touched up to balance the increase palette sharing. Looks very nice overall.
The insect enemy looks literally unfinished on PCE. It's very nice seeing it completed in the MD version.
The lake section is a pointless waste of space. Very little happens here and it was the kind of superfluous thing worth doing in a CD game. The artwork is very nice, but this and the forest section should have been greatly expanded or cut so that a proper gameplay section could have been included.
The lake section background takes a hit in color and shading. The (flesh-colored) boat, tower and boatman look unfortunate.
It's cool that the boss is segmented and flies around. Unfortunately it flies straight into the boat and introduces lots of exclusive "bullshit" moments as it is un-dodgeable and falling off of the boat means death. The boss also takes clashing shades from the background.
Tower Stage:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
Blue background now scrolls independently. Some nice line scrolling during the brief horizontal segment.
Noticeable color recycling overall.
Insects added from missing stages lead to new "bullshit" moments.
Boss is even simpler than the PCE battle, but very nice upgrade to the artwork. Simplified fire columns.
PC ENGINE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 2: Aqueducts:
One of the nicest looking stages in the game. My favorite to play.
BELL RINGING:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
Very nice variation of the bgm. Not as effective as the original, but doesn't feel too sedated either.
Why include these assets but not the stage?
Background and bell lose shades/color. Door no longer has its own palette. Neat that they used the alternating brick shades seen in the missing stage.
RAMP:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
As with the rest of the soundtrack, it uses some nice Mega Drive sounds, but the best way to describe this take on the original is "sleepy".
Nice background addition with parallax to this superfluous section which also should have been cut.
In the PCE version the coin enemy's back says "TEAM RED ALERT". In the Genesis version it says "TELENET JAPAN".
Boss background is missing the stars.
In the following in-game cutscene, the background earth artwork is very nice, but a waste that it is different than the final boss battle background's earth artwork, since space was such an issue.
MD EXCLUSIVE STAGE: Robot Factory???
Bgm is solid, but way too slow.
Painfully generic "look I'm 16-bit!" background and stage. Lots of wasted space, meaningless platforms. Would look more at place in Ranger-X, but the minimal assets would only make up half the screen. Anti-Valis theme is an excuse to use the same simple palette on "robot" enemies.
Sliding background is distracting while trying to make out actual movement and platforming. Leads to plenty of "bullshit" moments.
Boss loses crucial sandpit mechanic, leads to unavoidable "bullshit" moments.
PCE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 3: Graveyard:
Lots of nice art and nice addition to the game's overall variety and a very-Valis theme. Plus, Rogless!
PCE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 4: Desert
Not polished enough visually, but fun to play and has some cool stuff like the giant rib bone platforming and sand pits.
ICE STAGE:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
This bgm holds up best compared to the original.
Nice use of parallax, similar to the forest stage. Best background in the game as far as maintaining the color and shading of the original.
Snowflake enemy a nice addition, but leads to new "bullshit" moments. Particularly, the floating platform segments with spikes to leap over, while dodging both flying enemy types. Especially with Yuko's short slash in this version.
Missing the destructible ice blocks.
Boss's attacks are now massive unavoidable rapid fire sprays, huge jump from zero "bullshit" moments to constant "bullshit" moments. You pretty much have to just take damage to do damage and it's a race to the finish. Seems to be the origin of the poorly thought out short rapid slash. It may compensate as a defense, but you still fail to damage the boss when you use it.
RED TOWER:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
The sounds used for the bgm are solid yet again, but this track is painfully slow, even for the pace of the MD game.
Disappointing downgrade in "foreground" artwork, but nice upgrade of artwork to far background.
The use of column scrolling in the vertical background breaks the parallax. The horizontal parallax was also a bad idea.
Enemies use generic looking shared palette, like System-16 Golden Axe, but they made very good use of it considering. The yellow worms using the player sprite palette is disappointing though.
Extra red enemies against the red background equals poor contrast.
"Spiny" from Super Mario Bros is missing.
Missing skull platforms.
Missing destructible blocks, but adds static foreground columns at the end.
FINAL BOSS BATTLES:
MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:
Very nice updated artwork for the Earth and Moon.
During the second form, the background only scrolls one direction horizontally. In the PCE version the background scrolls very fast in all directions.
FINAL BOSS 1st FORM:
MD: Moves towards you, while flame swords fly towards you all at once and cannot be dodged. Rapid slash can be used as defense, but you must take damage to do damage.
Shorter sword slash is super fast and flies along the floor. You have to jump over it before it appears to avoid damage. Way more "bullshit" moments.
PCE: Giant sword slash and medium sword slash, both of which you can slide under. Flame swords can be dodged or destroyed as they come towards you.
FINAL BOSS 2nd FORM:
MD: Same attacks, flame swords are now extra "bullshitty".
PCE: New dodgeable orb attack replaces the flame swords. Single type of tall green sword slash.
Bottomline:
PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 versions have better controls, gameplay, stage design, more stages, more variety, better coloring and shading, faster and better pace, better music which compliments the faster more intense gameplay, more and better cinemas, voice acting... and most important of all: massively fewer "bullshit" moments.
The overall stage visuals are a mixed bag for both. Each have better artwork for some things, but not others. The MD/Genesis version has good parallax in most places but most of the sprites took a hit in color/shading and the best background visuals belong to PCE exclusive stages.
I've been arguing for years that the Mega Drive/Genesis version is under-appreciated, more polished and that they made a lot of nice additions to compensate a bit for everything that is lost. It still is a great game with great aesthetics and one of my favorites for any platform. But after taking a close look at both versions, the TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine version is much better in comparison than I previously believed from just playing one or the other every so often. It's just too bad that the PCE version didn't get that final polish that the MD version did. Still the definitive version and the most enjoyable, no question.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on July 26, 2015, 02:44:21 PM
Dammit, BT. I'm in bed already but seeing your post is drawing me back out from underneath these warm blankets to play some Valis III. Any version will do.
...dammit.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 26, 2015, 05:00:49 PM
Black Tiger confirmed my points, but then he EXPANDED the scope. Damn. There is nothing I can add.
CHALLENGE: In that old thread, nobody had any suggestions for what U.C.V. stood for (cross in graveyard stage). Read my two suggestions and then tell me you have a much better solution. :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Punch on July 26, 2015, 05:22:59 PM
Quote
(http://junk.tg-16.com/images/valis_III_bb.jpg)
Yuko, let me show you some fancy action now !!!
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on July 26, 2015, 07:22:51 PM
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: ClodBuster on July 26, 2015, 08:59:09 PM
Your charming vagina.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 27, 2015, 02:57:00 AM
(U)ncle (C)ock's (V)agina
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Spooky on July 28, 2015, 03:54:20 AM
Some final thoughts on the computer versions of Valis II.
MSX2
Couldn't bring myself to finish it, only got halfway. Runs noticeably slower than the others, and the scrolling is even more janky than the PC-98. The weakest of the lot by far.
PC-98
Controls the best out of the three, but unfortunately it's all for naught. The PC-98 was ill-equipped to handle demanding action games such as this, so while the earlier levels are easier than the X68K due to the improved controls, the extreme choppiness makes the later levels unbearable. Good luck dodging anything on those last couple stages; your best bet is to keep using the freeze spell before enemies have a chance to come on-screen.
That said, it does have the best soundtrack of any Valis game, bar none. So it's not completely without its merits.
X68000
I take back what I said about Valis I PCE being the closest this series ever came to achieving greatness. Valis II X68000 is the closest it ever came.
They royally goofed the floof with the jump physics and handling, so most people won't even bother getting past Stage 2. If you are able to suffer through that initial hurdle, you'll find a most enjoyable game waiting for you on the other side. There's no real platforming challenges after Stage 1, and by Stage 3 your HP meter will be adequately leveled up, so the sub-par controls are of little consequence. You can almost see the difficulty curve as being inverted from the PC-98; smooth sailing from the second half onward.
The later sections benefit greatly from the X68000's superior scrolling and added autofire. Goes without saying that it's the nicest looking of any version of Valis II, (perhaps of any Valis game period?) though the music is a slight step down from the PC-98. The changes they made to enemy placement and level design are all for the better. Basically, Valis II X68K gets everything right... except for the gameplay. Still, I'll have to concur that it's a standout game in the series, if not mainly for its ambitious nature.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on July 28, 2015, 08:47:51 AM
Damning praise? Ha!
I have to somewhat agree; I might like Valis II on the x68k more than Valis I PCE now, even with its bad jumping controls. Right you are in that the first two stages are the biggest hurdle to getting into the game, but aside from the labyrinthine castle level (stage 5), the game proceeds smoothly. The glitchy attack spam that happens whenever you are hit is both funny and useful for killing bosses in seconds.
I think I prefer the stronger, meatier synths of the x68k, but that's a bit subjective. I think it's probably the best Valis soundtrack, with PCE-CD Valis II coming in second place. The effort put into the game makes me think it was Telenet's attempt at making the next big hit; too bad they were Telenet or they might have succeeded.
It's a game that people who are ostensibly fans of the series owe it to themselves to play, and to wonder why the series didn't try to iterate on its design, instead favoring the bland PCE Valis II as the template for future games. Valis III, while enjoyably stylish, lacks its predecessor's intensity.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on July 28, 2015, 01:04:04 PM
CONCLUSION: One of these years I will have to play the X68000 and PC-98 versions. :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: escarioth on August 03, 2015, 07:34:19 AM
i love valis but im not a great fan :)
but i really love the music back from the snes. as for turbografx games, between the 2 i have here. i really enjoyed valis II but got myself stuck around the end of valis III ( harder then the previous one ._. )
so i will say that i like the III since its more challenging :D
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on November 03, 2015, 04:43:52 PM
Just a bump to share a few thoughts on Valis IV.
Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.
Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.
I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.
I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
UPPER QUALITY: Valis II X68000 Valis I PCE-CD
MIDDLING QUALITY: Valis III PCE-CD Valis IV PCE-CD
LOW QUALITY: Valis II PCE-CD
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: grolt on November 04, 2015, 03:15:10 AM
Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.
Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.
I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.
I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
UPPER QUALITY: Valis II X68000 Valis I PCE-CD
MIDDLING QUALITY: Valis III PCE-CD Valis IV PCE-CD
LOW QUALITY: Valis II PCE-CD
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
I liked reading that, thanks. Interesting that the best and worst game is both Valis II. What makes the ports so different?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on November 04, 2015, 03:22:29 AM
Read a few of the posts in the last couple of pages. Both games are completely different, made by different teams. All they share in common is the name and a few of the same characters.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: stinkoman on November 05, 2015, 01:33:07 AM
Do the PC Engine versions require knowledge of Japaneses to play or is it pretty straight forward?
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on November 05, 2015, 09:43:24 AM
Do the PC Engine versions require knowledge of Japaneses to play or is it pretty straight forward?
Unless you are interested in story details you'll be fine with the Japanese versions.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on November 05, 2015, 12:34:03 PM
You don't even get the complete series story in English anyhow, so you might as well just watch cutscenes on youtube if you are really in to it.
I actually suspect that despite their awful dubbing, the English Valis II and III are fairly faithful to their source material. Knowing the general outline of the games' plots, they probably just do a straight translation of all the game text (e.g. the flavor conversations pre-boss fight, cutscene text), except with NEC's famous in-house team of amateurs.
Title: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on December 19, 2015, 08:27:12 AM
Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.
Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.
I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.
I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
UPPER QUALITY: Valis II X68000 Valis I PCE-CD
MIDDLING QUALITY: Valis III PCE-CD Valis IV PCE-CD
LOW QUALITY: Valis II PCE-CD
//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//
Mama Mia!
Of course strategy is involved. And enemies spawning at inconvenient times/places, which may "knock you down" is so broad it can be leveled at nearly every platformer. Yes, I know you meant: you were saying that Valis III has a lot of "cheap" moments. I think you just need to spend a little more time with Valis III. Have you replayed it?
SNARKY: I submit that you would level this critique ("it's cheap") at Super Mario Brothers, too, if you had only spent a little time playing SMB.
You mention that Valis III is "not Castlvania", yet both games exhibit the same type of platforming design+ enemy placement... But I'll go further, I will argue that Castlevania is MUCH MORE LIKELY to exhibit "cheap" moments (say, a tricky jump + winged creature, or a tricky jump + an enemy with a mid- to long-range attack) than Valis III.
Valis III's aqueduct stage is brilliant. I don't think it is cheap. It is all about strategy and executing some platforming skills (freeze + jump, repeat).
Then there are moments where you use *slide attack* to overcome challenging platforming/enemy placement.
Perhaps you need to explore/experiment with slide attack/magic/different characters.
BORING/UNINSPIRED: Sure, some stages in Valis III are boring/uninspired...but the same is true for Castlevania. Stairs in Castlevania are lame and lead to many cheap moments. I love the Castlevania series, but let's be honest in our discussions.
BOTTOM LINE: There are enough charming/satisfying segments/stages in Valis III to praise it. And it certainly holds its own against the antics in Castlevania.
IF YOU ENJOY CASTLEVANIA, you can enjoy Valis III. :)
LOVE: Please note that I am a huge Castlevania fan... But I acknowledge that it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I don't think the classic Castlevania series is particularly cheap, but if you are going to level that charge against Valis III, then I certainly have to call you out for ignoring how Castlevania exhibits similar "problems"... :)
NOTE: I love reading all of your recent posts. You are playing the damn games and talking about them :)
We need more discussions like this.
:) :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Medic_wheat on December 19, 2015, 08:32:10 AM
Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on December 19, 2015, 12:46:57 PM
Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.
You may well be the only one. ;)
That's ok with me What's can I say I just seem to dog those chibi games.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Black Tiger on December 19, 2015, 02:02:15 PM
I was shocked by how much I didn't like Syd of Valis the first time through. I thought that it would be pretty much a SD version of the Turbo Valis II, but it just wasn't any fun to play. Maybe if I spend more time with it will turn out to be better.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: blueraven on December 19, 2015, 04:01:25 PM
I just realized something.
I've never, ever played any one of the Valis games... DAMN.
Just added them to my wishlist.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on December 20, 2015, 12:50:21 AM
I was shocked by how much I didn't like Syd of Valis the first time through. I thought that it would be pretty much a SD version of the Turbo Valis II, but it just wasn't any fun to play. Maybe if I spend more time with it will turn out to be better.
Agreed. I just don't find it particularly engaging, which is funny, because I give everything a chance.
I'm always willing to give it another chance...but at this point...
I actually like the cute chibi/SD designs! Most of the small, generic enemy designs have far more personality in Syd than in the original source material. What a shame...
Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.
You may well be the only one. ;)
Hjahahahahjajaha. I concur with Mathius.
However, to defend medic_wheat, I actually wanted and expected to enjoy Syd of Valis...so maybe my expectations led to "disappointment" that I would not otherwise have felt.
I'll give Syd another chance. Someday.
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Punch on December 20, 2015, 05:25:05 AM
Telenet games mediocre-to-bad, sky blue, water wet
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: Mathius on December 20, 2015, 12:50:24 PM
Okay already! I'll give it another chance. *sigh* peer pressure
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on December 22, 2015, 10:05:17 AM
Okay already! I'll give it another chance. *sigh* peer pressure
I've been so harsh on the crappy Syd of Valis since it was released...
I feel like I am biased.
Also...peer pressure :)
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: EmperorIng on January 04, 2016, 09:50:07 AM
Bumping the Valis power-rankings because they are so right they deserve to be on a second page. I am messing around with the Mega-Drive/Genesis Valis game on emulator, and I kinda like it. It's way sloppier than the good PCE-CD remake, but it's sorta charming.
Of course strategy is involved. And enemies spawning at inconvenient times/places, which may "knock you down" is so broad it can be leveled at nearly every platformer. Yes, I know you meant: you were saying that Valis III has a lot of "cheap" moments. I think you just need to spend a little more time with Valis III. Have you replayed it?
I was talking more about my experiences with Valis IV, which suffers because it is a much longer game and enemies have way more health than they need to. Valis III has its problems but Valis IV magnifies them.
Quote
You mention that Valis III is "not Castlvania", yet both games exhibit the same type of platforming design+ enemy placement... But I'll go further, I will argue that Castlevania is MUCH MORE LIKELY to exhibit "cheap" moments (say, a tricky jump + winged creature, or a tricky jump + an enemy with a mid- to long-range attack) than Valis III.
The difference is that Castlevania gives you far more time to react. The enemies are spaced fairly and you are not forced to memorize stage layouts to the degree that you are in Valis. In the best CV games (X68000, CV1&3, etc.), a mixture of reflex and skill can get you out of nearly any situation. The attack animations are measured and consistent, and you and your enemies follow rules that are exacting, but ultimately fair.
This contrasts with Valis IV, which seems fond of placing you on a moving platform and activating a turret-enemy's debilitating attacks before he has even entered the screen. You are given less time to react, and thus skill is downplayed while memorization is brought to the forefront. And furthermore, Castlevania enemies that like to surprise you while jumping are usually one-hit-wonders, whereas the fetuses in Valis IV like to take upwards of 12 hits to kill - or soldiers with mid-range attacks 5 (or up to 8 if you are not powered up).
Quote
Valis III's aqueduct stage is brilliant. I don't think it is cheap. It is all about strategy and executing some platforming skills (freeze + jump, repeat).
It's novel, but requiring the use of freeze magic (and thus punishing the player by making them wait... slowly... for enemies that drop random refills gets old. It's very much something you need to do correctly, the first time, with little room for improvisation (especially with the huge knockback). I agree that it's a neat concept but it needs to give a lot more for the player to work with.
Quote
BORING/UNINSPIRED: Sure, some stages in Valis III are boring/uninspired...but the same is true for Castlevania. Stairs in Castlevania are lame and lead to many cheap moments. I love the Castlevania series, but let's be honest in our discussions.
Stairs -can- lead to frustrating moments, but it's a quirk of the series that has been proven through clever levels (the great tower stage in CV3) or giving players plenty of tools to react to situations. Climbing the stained-glass window tower in the Sharp X68000 Castlevania is no problem, even with pesky bats, because there are multiple routes through the section, and bats are never so strong or cumbersome as to be more than a whip-lash away from death.
Quote
NOTE: I love reading all of your recent posts. You are playing the damn games and talking about them :)
We need more discussions like this.
Thanks for the compliment; misery loves company and I love sharing my misery about frustrating games. I still don't hate the Valis series but as Punch pointed out, Telenet games are pretty infuriating in their sketchiness. I'm playing Travel Eple right now and am wondering why I bothered. :|
Title: Re: Favorite Valis game?
Post by: esteban on January 04, 2016, 12:21:37 PM
^ EmperorIng: I did not realize you were also referring to Valis IV...yeah, IV was a letdown after III, for me.
I concur about the mediocrity of Telenet PCE titles...but I have a soft spot for them, nonetheless. I also tend to love the Telenet House Band responsible for the soundtracks. Composers/musicians/whatever...many Telenet games share a common feel/sound that I like.