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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: xelement5x on February 04, 2015, 09:35:10 AM
Title: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: xelement5x on February 04, 2015, 09:35:10 AM
Is anyone else seriously concerned about the current trend of people not vaccinating their children?
The whole premise that decades of science are being voluntarily abandoned because people are afraid of unproven (or disproven depending on what you read) effects really worries me. I've got a kiddo that's almost 2 and has been vaccinated up to her age group, but the kind of things that are happening now like with the Disneyland outbreak seem crazy for this day in age.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 04, 2015, 09:46:23 AM
If peeps don't want to get their kiddos vaccinated, I'm okay with it as long as they stay the f*ck home. Don't put others at risk.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: NightWolve on February 04, 2015, 09:48:01 AM
It was some now debunked report that vaccines were causing autism that got all this anti-vaccination hysteria/paranoia/alarmism/propaganda/fear-mongering started. Then media figures like Jenny McCarthy repeating/believing it as well, etc.
This calls for Penn & Teller's excellent easy123 presentation to combat it!
Utter destruction in an argument, hands down. Heh-heh.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: ClodBuster on February 04, 2015, 09:48:42 AM
If peeps don't want to get their kiddos vaccinated, I'm okay with it as long as they stay the f*ck home. Don't put others at risk.
If the vaccine works, and your child is vaccinated, how are they at risk around unvaccinated children?
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 04, 2015, 01:01:30 PM
My 2nd born had his first course of immunisation today at 7 weeks old. Boy did he scream the doctor's surgery down. Reminds me mine are out of date now.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Opethian on February 04, 2015, 01:04:06 PM
minecraft causes autism not vaccines.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 04, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
My 2nd born had his first course of immunisation today at 7 weeks old. Boy did he scream the doctor's surgery down. Reminds me mine are out of date now.
that explains why we've not seen you around the 'phile chat much lately. Congrats, and condolences. Seriously... vasectomy. You can thank me later. Ask joshuaturbo if you don't believe me.
thanks pal. Yes busy times. I'm doing the 2am feed right now. Also no balls chop.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: xelement5x on February 04, 2015, 01:21:02 PM
If peeps don't want to get their kiddos vaccinated, I'm okay with it as long as they stay the f*ck home. Don't put others at risk.
If the vaccine works, and your child is vaccinated, how are they at risk around unvaccinated children?
From what I have read:
Quote
About 3 percent of fully vaccinated children do not develop a lasting immune response. They have low blood titers and are not protected against measles. If exposed, this group will likely get the illness.
Also, while I am chiefly concerned about my child's safety, they safety of other children is not something I would just shrug off despite her getting the vaccine already.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on February 04, 2015, 01:51:49 PM
This whole issue is easily explained. Science scares people, well, retarded people anyway, so said retards put their trust entirely in god instead of sound science. While they mean well, the fact is all sorts of people die from all sorts of shit, and God aint riding a magic f*cking rainbow down to earth to save stupid people from themselves by curing their f*cking flu, measles, HIV, HPV related cancer, etc. I am fine with all of this. The earth is over populated anyway.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: CPTRAVE on February 04, 2015, 03:04:38 PM
Vaccine are not causing autism, its all the chemicals we put in our food, and when baby's are born we give them baby "formula" (man made food, more chemicals). When I was a kid formula was limited, and autism was hardly ever seen. Look at what we eat, that's where I think the problem started and is.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: jeffhlewis on February 04, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
Vaccine are not causing autism, its all the chemicals we put in our food, and when baby's are born we give them baby "formula" (man made food, more chemicals). When I was a kid formula was limited, and autism was hardly ever seen. Look at what we eat, that's where I think the problem started and is.
Aren't you discounting the fact that autism is probably better diagnosed now than it ever was in the past, leading to increased "numbers"?
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 04, 2015, 05:19:51 PM
So the news is hyping another outbreak, what is it, once a year now? I mean, I know I need to take the flu shot vaccine once a month if i want to survive. Pen and teller is where I get my medical advise, come on they use swear words on TV, those guys are so hip. And that fun little presentation they did is perfect for us first graders. Those guys know my attention span wouldn't hold without the F word and some dodge ball.
Has anyone read any real articles to the contrary of fox news. Seriously, they always slant the story and act like its a crime to question things and these parents are crazy conspiracy nuts. Knowing it's easier to drink the koolaid. For example here is an decent article I just found http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html Now does this sound so crazy.
I'm actually not for or against vaccines until I fully researched both sides the best I could. I do agree with toymachine78 "If the vaccine works, and your child is vaccinated, how are they at risk around unvaccinated children?" oh, i doesn't work all the time, ..f*ck off
I don't really trust these big pharmaceutical companies though, 100,000 people in the US die each year from prescription drugs. These pharmaceutical companies are about making money more than they care about your child's health. Look at these crazy ass drug commercials (which conveniently sponsor the news with their advertising btw) scare the population and old people into any drugs they can push. If it goes bad a few years down the road, they can afford to sweep it under the rug. Or they could wait 6 months for everyone to forget, alter it slightly and change name. The point I'm making is these are the same folks drumming up vaccines and flu shots every five minutes
Here is another interesting article 7 Most Disgusting Ingredients Used to Make Vaccines http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/7-most-disgusting-ingredients-used-to-make-vaccines/
Also I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with ProfessorProfessorson I don't think the majority of these folks are anti-science religious fanatics.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: NightWolve on February 04, 2015, 06:04:42 PM
Pen and teller is where I get my medical advise, come on they use swear words on TV, those guys are so hip. And that fun little presentation they did is perfect for us first graders. Those guys know my attention span wouldn't hold without the F word and some dodge ball.
So wait...they can't have an opinion on the recent anti-vaccination movement unless they're trained medical professionals or something, but you can ? Oh OK! And if a video of theirs is posted in a thread about the subject, that means that's advocacy to somehow only get medical advice just from them, when it should instead be you, and other conspiratorial fear-mongers on the opposing side of the issue ? Wow, that too makes total sense!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 04, 2015, 07:02:17 PM
First let me say I wasn't attacking you personally and I have nothing against you. You have a right to your opinion.
Imo P&T are not credible to be giving medical advise to the public/lots of people. I was also mocking their credibility based on how their video was presented. There video seems a little one sided like its a proven fact this or that and not this is their opinion. Knocking down the men is comparing what exactly 109 kids are safe and out of 110 kids who don't get vaccines 50% die?
While I do use sarcasm against the mainstream news and talk about my opinions on pharmaceutical companies I think the point I was trying to make with my post was that imo based on just reading a few articles and based on common sense there is some credibility to the argument against vaccines or at least for safer vaccines. And not to use the old jump to conclusions mat and assume every one questioning vaccines is a nut case moron like the news and P&T would have you believe. I gave no medical advise except to research both sides for yourself.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: NightWolve on February 04, 2015, 07:48:37 PM
Imo P&T are not credible to be giving medical advise to the public/lots of people. I was also mocking their credibility based on how their video was presented.
But you and Jenny McCarthy are credible ? P&T's position is the same as that of the majority of the medical industry, they're simply defending it, you're the one that's on the less credible ground, not them!
Quote
There video seems a little one sided like its a proven fact this or that and not this is their opinion.
Yeah, kind of like what the medical industry overwhelmingly has to say about vaccines, funny that...
Quote
Knocking down the men is comparing what exactly 109 kids are safe and out of 110 kids who don't get vaccines 50% die?
It's pretty clear what the presentation was about. The benefits of vaccines past/present overwhelmingly outweigh the risks! You just got butthurt about it.
Quote
And not to use the old jump to conclusions mat and assume every one questioning vaccines is a nut case moron like the news and P&T would have you believe.
They dealt with a specific issue, a link between autism and vaccines because a recent report claimed there was a link. I even said that already! That report was later discredited/debunked, but it caused some paranoia/hysteria/etc. and gave more ammunition to the anti-vaccine movement. That's specifically what they were combating, to pushback against the voices discouraging proper vaccination based on current established norms/research/science, etc. riding on a now debunked report... You do get that, right ? Since these voices are riding on a report that was debunked and are still going by wrong information, other voices need to pushback to correct them, don't you think ?
Quote
I gave no medical advise except to research both sides for yourself.
Sure you did. You're attempting to give credibility to the anti-vaccine movement (which advises widespread distrust in vaccines)... Now you're not even being honest with yourself.
We take risks in everything! Duh! The water that is delivered to your home for example! How much mercury, lead, insecticides, chlorine, etc. is in there ? There's a price to pay for industrialization, but there are all the benefits that have come from it as well.
You foster distrust in pharmaceutical companies because you say "they care more about making money than caring for you." You could apply that faulty logic to our food producers or anybody else that produces a product that you inject/ingest. Companies make mistakes, they didn't say package that meat properly, so you got salmonella poisoning as a result. A bottling company's machine added too much of a preservative which wound up being poisonous to a consumer, it's happened! A vaccine or drug was not prepared properly, it caused a problem instead of solving it, etc.! A doctor amputated the wrong leg! These things happen and it's unfortunate, but we don't need widespread alarmism/fear-mongering/hysteria/propaganda/panic to go out there to blindly discourage the population from vaccinating their kids and cause a rise in diseases that were normally under control/limited, etc. That's the point!!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 04, 2015, 08:05:41 PM
Autism is an umbrella term for a whole host of conditions ranging from extreme to very mild. It is far more likely caused by over exposure of hormones in the womb than after birth. You likely interact with people who are on the spectrum on a daily basis but don't realise. They might not even realise themselves. You just might think they are a bit odd. People remark this to me quite often. I think I have coped quite well through life and can force myself to be "normal" although I hate having to pretend. This is not a medical diagnosis as I feel having one would not change my life in any way at this point, just my own self observations.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: CPTRAVE on February 04, 2015, 08:15:21 PM
Vaccine are not causing autism, its all the chemicals we put in our food, and when baby's are born we give them baby "formula" (man made food, more chemicals). When I was a kid formula was limited, and autism was hardly ever seen. Look at what we eat, that's where I think the problem started and is.
Aren't you discounting the fact that autism is probably better diagnosed now than it ever was in the past, leading to increased "numbers"?
Exactly increased numbers, why formula chemicals in everyday items, look at your cereal, does it have any type of corn (Corn starch)then chances are it has been genetically modified GMO Monsato, of course our bodies are going to react sooner or later, which again is leading to increased numbers. Chicken, cows are being fed GMO products. We eat the cows and chickens adding more man made chemicals to our bodies. I mean come on, companies genetically modify our food, Kellogg's is a big part of it. What do you think is going to happen to us if we keep consuming genetically modified foods.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: NightWolve on February 04, 2015, 08:53:24 PM
OH NOOOOS! He's giving medical advice, the same advice the medical industry gives overwhelmingly!
Quote
Author Roald Dahl (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach and Matilda), lost his 7-year-old daughter Olivia to measles in 1962.
Twenty-four years later, he wrote an essay about her death as a plea to parents everywhere to vaccinate their children. In the wake of the U.S.'s recent measles outbreak – largely attributed to parents consciously deciding not to have their children vaccinated – Dahl's letter (published in a 1988 pamphlet from the Sandwell Health Authority) has resurfaced as a powerful reminder that measles is largely a preventable disease and that ignoring vaccinations can have devastating effects.
Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of colored pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn't do anything.
"Are you feeling all right?" I asked her.
"I feel all sleepy," she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
Dahl's daughter died when her measles progressed to an untreatable disease called measles encephalitis. In 1962, no vaccine existed for measles, but by 1986, one had been developed and Dahl advocated for its use. "It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunized," he wrote.
Dahl dedicated two of his books to Olivia, James and the Giant Peach and The BFG, but his wife Patricia Neal, Olivia's mother, said Dahl never spoke about their daughter's death.
The U.K. Independent cites a passage from one of Dahl's recently discovered private notebooks.
Got to hospital. Walked in. Two doctors advanced on me from waiting room. How is she? I'm afraid it's too late. I went into her room. Sheet was over her. Doctor said to nurse go out. Leave him alone. I kissed her. She was warm. I went out. 'She is warm.' I said to doctors in hall, 'Why is she so warm?' 'Of course,' he said. I left.
Dahl's full essay is available to read on his website. You can also find links to read about the children's charity established in his memory in 1990 or donate to it. "Roald Dahl wrote his letter 30 years ago but still today in the U.K. alone, 6,000 people are diagnosed with encephalitis each year. That's 16 people every day. This, it seems is also considered an underestimate as encephalitis is very difficult to diagnose and like in the case of Roald Dahl's daughter, is sadly often missed," notes Dr. Ava Easton of The Encephalitis Society, who adds that February 22 is World Encephalitis Day, designed to spread awareness of the disease.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: esteban on February 04, 2015, 09:50:14 PM
Crap, this is depressing.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on February 05, 2015, 12:22:22 AM
What I can add to this is that both my kids, yes both, have been fully vaccinated, and have taken antibiotics when needed, which is rare. They are in their late teens now. They are not autistic. They didn't sprout a 3rd arm or go into a magic coma or start drooling on their selves while staring off into space. They hardly ever get sick, other then during cold season, and even then its mild for them. Science and the advancement of medicine in the modern medical world. Its f*cking awesome. Respect it, use it, and it will take care of you and yours.
Germs and pathogens are advancing every year. Its hard enough for even the medical field to stay equipped to fight an ever changing, ever evolving enemy, like the flu for instance, so they need our support, not our doubts and nay saying. Our immune systems are amazing, usually, but even they can only go so far. Mother nature is turning against us slowly as time goes on, has been for thousands of years, presenting mankind with joys like Yellow Fever.
And for that matter there are other factors at play. Other humans, some meaning well, others with nefarious intent, have been and continue to play god with said pathogens and genetically modified primordial germ cells in labs all around the world, waiting to deliver the next big cure to help mankind, or the next big bio weapon to hurt and hinder it.
If something happens, like the next black plague similar to whats been hitting Madagascar, big or small, I'm going to be counting on the good guys in the labs working for the CDC and WHO who risk their lives every day to study and test this shit for the benefit of mankind to deliver a vaccine or antibiotic treatment. Its what they f*cking do, and to be frank, they have had more success then failure over the years. The negatives have not outweighed the positives. More lives have been saved then lost.
Because of these scientist, doctors and nurses in the medical field for the past couple hundred years have been risking and dedicating their lives to said deeds, we can now cure and treat shit that was killing thousands a day for extended periods hundreds of years back, when we were still in the dark, tossing the dead out into streets and boarding up windows. We can keep shit at bay that was killing hundreds of thousands if not millions. We can keep the current deaths in the tens of thousands instead of the millions. We can fight back.
I think some people in here need some f*cking education.
Go on that link, scroll along, klik on shit and read and get a glimpse of how shit was before we had legitimate treatments for all this shit that has tried to kick humanities ass, and read about the people who finally came up with ways to combat it. As you read on, pay attention to the f*cking death tolls caused by shit we at one time had no treatment for as you go, and imagine if all of this shit was hitting us year after year now, with no viable treatment or prevention on hand. Before diseases etc had to wait weeks to travel from one country to the next, over the ocean, across vast unpopulated lands.
Imagine this shit having free reign now due to a sudden outbreak. Pretend we never created a vaccine before for it, or did but tossed it due to whatever crazy reason some group of fools came up with on a whim. Just imagine we always got lucky prior with small outbreaks, small death counts in remote isolated parts of the world. With the way a potential carrier could be in another country in less then 24 hours now, and every person they were in contact with also in their own countries in yet another 24 hours, going out, shopping, eating out, breathing, spreading shit... Just imagine how fast and destructive something like Yellow Fever or Small Pox could be if it had 100 percent free reign over every country due to lack of knowledge, treatment, prevention, or plain ignorance.
Imagine some psycho doomsday cult, or modern day enemy fascist regime like the Nazi's finding ways to breed batches of Yellow Fever carrying mosquitoes ready to be unleashed upon a modern day southern part of North America during a humid summer, or finding new ways to cultivate Smallpox or the black plague into an effective weapon against the United States during a time of war, instigating a major outbreak in multiple large industrialized zones that were dedicated/tasked to creating and manufacturing weaponry/machinery for our military in a war that we were barely winning, thus crippling/killing/destroying our own work forces, along with their families, and ensuring our total defeat.
Imagine this happened all because a treatment or vaccine was never found or created, or was but was tossed away because of a few a$$hole wackamoles in the early 1900s ranted and got their way because they believed vaccines would suddenly make their kids retarded or whatever. So they demanded an end to science and a total reliance on god/faith, spiritual healing, luck, a rabbits foot, 7 herbs and spices, and in a worse case scenario, maybe leeches and blood letting, along with an annual town witch burning to keep things straight and the plague at bay. The Nazis and the Japanese were already toying with ideas such as this as is during WWII, biological warfare, so seriously, think this over.
We are already dealing with shit like Ebola as is trying to keep it at bay, but imagine if something more easily widespread like the above hit. You really wanna tell me you'd rather not be able to vaccinate or treat your kids, let alone yourself, against that kinda shit? You really wanna turn back the clock and start rolling the dice on shit like that?
Look, nothing is perfect. There is a risk to everything. A small percentage of the population may indeed not be responsive in a positive way to some vaccines. But that DOES NOT mean the majority will not be. The key thing here is to save and treat the majority. Saving lives, as many as possible. In a perfect world everyone could be saved, but the world isn't perfect.
Lets say hypothetically, that there are a few well known and widely used vaccines that happen to prevent HIV or Ebola did in fact cause autism in something like 4 percent of those vaccinated, or ADD in something like 5-15 percent of the North American population. Regardless, there was still like a 85 percent total success rate with no negative symptoms what so ever. To work the vaccines have to be administered when they are children.
Would you really want to just completely do away with a vaccine like that, one that could completely prevent the spread of HIV, just because that minor percentage had negative side effects? Would you really choose to prevent your kids from being vaccinated with the such on the 3 percent chance they may become autistic, or the 10-15 percent chance they may develop some form of ADD? ADD, something that is entirely treatable that can be coped with during their life, in favor of them being at risk of contracting HIV in their teen to adult years?
We all know what, well hopefully all of us here know what HIV can become, and what it does to the human body when it does. Something like ADD may complicate someones life, but HIV will f*cking destroy it when it turns into full blown AIDS. With the right meds you may be able to slow it down, but eventually your time will run out, and there is also the social stigma that having HIV carries.
That stigma is a lot worse then having ADD. So what would you choose? Permanently prevent HIV, or maybe prevent ADD, and maybe in a tiny possibility prevent autism, in favor or risking contracting HIV as an adult due to some drunken one night stand? The fact is ADD and autism can develop even without vaccines. Your kids may develop that shit just from being a toddler sucking on some dumb toy that may have had lead paint. All sorts of shit can cause behavioral disorders. Some of it can be prevented, some cant.
But HIV, well, we all know how you can catch it, and it isn't from licking f*cking lead paint as a toddler. So, what would you choose? Ponder on this, seriously, because one day this may actually be a reality. There may one day be a vaccine for HIV, and it may have minor side effects for a small percentage of the population. And you or your kids may have to make that choice....
End of rant.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: PunkicCyborg on February 05, 2015, 12:28:44 AM
Enter a thread with all the forums most argumentative know it alls against you? You crazy Phase! I didn't have any vaccinations and I'm still alive and kicking (so far). My kids have't received any YET. We've decided to delay them but will be doing some of them before they go to school.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: nodtveidt on February 05, 2015, 01:57:33 AM
My son has never been vaxxed and he has severe autism... go figure.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 05, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Imo P&T are not credible to be giving medical advise to the public/lots of people. I was also mocking their credibility based on how their video was presented.
But you and Jenny McCarthy are credible ? P&T's position is the same as that of the majority of the medical industry, they're simply defending it, you're the one that's on the less credible ground, not them!
Quote
There video seems a little one sided like its a proven fact this or that and not this is their opinion.
Yeah, kind of like what the medical industry overwhelmingly has to say about vaccines, funny that...
Quote
Knocking down the men is comparing what exactly 109 kids are safe and out of 110 kids who don't get vaccines 50% die?
It's pretty clear what the presentation was about. The benefits of vaccines past/present overwhelmingly outweigh the risks! You just got butthurt about it.
Quote
And not to use the old jump to conclusions mat and assume every one questioning vaccines is a nut case moron like the news and P&T would have you believe.
They dealt with a specific issue, a link between autism and vaccines because a recent report claimed there was a link. I even said that already! That report was later discredited/debunked, but it caused some paranoia/hysteria/etc. and gave more ammunition to the anti-vaccine movement. That's specifically what they were combating, to pushback against the voices discouraging proper vaccination based on current established norms/research/science, etc. riding on a now debunked report... You do get that, right ? Since these voices are riding on a report that was debunked and are still going by wrong information, other voices need to pushback to correct them, don't you think ?
Quote
I gave no medical advise except to research both sides for yourself.
Sure you did. You're attempting to give credibility to the anti-vaccine movement (which advises widespread distrust in vaccines)... Now you're not even being honest with yourself.
Me and Jenny McCarthy are hanging out later today to join our local anti-vaccine movement. Look, just doing 5 minutes of searching I found out vaccines have some dangerous ingredients. Mercury is toxic and does cause neurological damage to humans last time I checked, Is this the sole cause of autism, No. Ingesting mercury is different than putting it directly into your bloodstream as well. Now think about babies and small children. Many of the other ingredients don't sound very nutritious either. checking out ingredients isn't rocket science folks, wow I must be coco for cocoa puffs how dare i question the medical industry.
You keep defending those toolbags P&T like they are your friends or something, whatever, the video is too vague to be taken into account for anything and is aimed at people who cant understand anything as complex as a basic graph.
We take risks in everything! Duh! The water that is delivered to your home for example! How much mercury, lead, insecticides, chlorine, etc. is in there ? There's a price to pay for industrialization, but there are all the benefits that have come from it as well.
You keep your mouth shut about tap water man. how dare you question the majority of people and the city. don't you ever voice an opinion questioning water safety. mercury, lead, insecticides, chlorine are nutritious. kidding aside, if you feel its unsafe its ok to try and raise awareness to make it safer wouldn't you say. or should you be labeled into some group and called a conspiracy nut.
You foster distrust in pharmaceutical companies because you say "they care more about making money than caring for you." You could apply that faulty logic to our food producers or anybody else that produces a product that you inject/ingest. Companies make mistakes, they didn't say package that meat properly, so you got salmonella poisoning as a result. A bottling company's machine added too much of a preservative which wound up being poisonous to a consumer, it's happened! A vaccine or drug was not prepared properly, it caused a problem instead of solving it, etc.! A doctor amputated the wrong leg! These things happen and it's unfortunate, but we don't need widespread alarmism/fear-mongering/hysteria/propaganda/panic to go out there to blindly discourage the population from vaccinating their kids and cause a rise in diseases that were normally under control/limited, etc. That's the point!!
Faulty logic? While I agree mistakes can happen, I'm talking about using unsafe ingredients and pushing drugs with little benefits that could have harmful side-effects because they want to make more money. All you have to do is listen to a couple of these drug commercials, I mean they are laughable. When I said pharmaceutical companies care more about making money than they care about your child's health. I meant like cigarette companies care about making money more than they care about producing healthier cigarettes. -sure its not the best analogy
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 05, 2015, 07:33:41 AM
Look, just doing 5 minutes of searching I found out vaccines have some dangerous ingredients. Mercury is toxic and does cause neurological damage to humans last time I checked....
You don't say. :roll:
Nobody is claiming that vaccines (or any drug really) is the equivalent of eating health food. Whatever dangers are present in the vaccine (it's not just chemicals, you're literally being injected with a weakened form of the disease) are overshadowed by the immunity granted, which is the point of that video.
But I'm sure you're right - everyone should try their hand at beating polio, small pox, mumps, rubella, tetanus, diptheria, h flu, whooping cough, typhoid, and yellow fever. I hear they're fun.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 05, 2015, 09:01:03 AM
Look, just doing 5 minutes of searching I found out vaccines have some dangerous ingredients. Mercury is toxic and does cause neurological damage to humans last time I checked....
You don't say. :roll:
I don't think its absurd, look into how scary mercury is to your health.
Nobody is claiming that vaccines (or any drug really) is the equivalent of eating health food. Whatever dangers are present in the vaccine (it's not just chemicals, you're literally being injected with a weakened form of the disease) are overshadowed by the immunity granted, which is the point of that video.
So we agree it’s ok to discuss the possible dangers or concerns. I think your giving the video too much credit though and it looks more like a slapped together hit piece on anyone who questions vaccine safety.
But I'm sure you're right - everyone should try their hand at beating polio, small pox, mumps, rubella, tetanus, diptheria, h flu, whooping cough, typhoid, and yellow fever. I hear they're fun.
Well now I never said don’t get this or that vaccine, my argument was more about concerns with ingredients and people having a right to question vaccines safety, I may have injected opinions on my lack of confidence in the news and lack of trust in pharmaceutical companies as well :P
You can request vaccines without mercury based preservatives in some cases, that would be nice to know if your concerned. Tetanus for example can be treated after you have it, that is also something not mentioned often.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 05, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
I had all my childhood vaccinations and I turned out almost ok?
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 05, 2015, 09:28:18 AM
I don't think its absurd, look into how scary mercury is to your health.
Ingesting large amounts is dangerous, but scientific evidence says the small amount in vaccines is not. Nor is the amount found in seafood, dental amalgam, etc. a serious concern.
With your fool's logic, nobody should drink water because if you drink enough it'll kill you. :lol:
So we agree it’s ok to discuss the possible dangers or concerns. I think your giving the video too much credit though and it looks more like a slapped together hit piece on anyone who questions vaccine safety...... Well now I never said don’t get this or that vaccine......
That's exactly what you're saying. Everyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that there's inherent risk in ANY medical procedure, so what you're doing is using those minor concerns as an excuse to not get vaccines.
Me and Jenny McCarthy are hanging out later today to join our local anti-vaccine movement. Look, just doing 5 minutes of searching I found out vaccines have some dangerous ingredients. Mercury is toxic and does cause neurological damage to humans last time I checked, Is this the sole cause of autism, No. Ingesting mercury is different than putting it directly into your bloodstream as well. Now think about babies and small children. Many of the other ingredients don't sound very nutritious either. checking out ingredients isn't rocket science folks, wow I must be coco for cocoa puffs how dare i question the medical industry.
OK, so he's talking about thimerosal which was used as a vaccine preservative since the 1930s.
1) "Since 1999, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine makers to remove thiomersal from vaccines as quickly as possible as a purely precautionary measure, and it was rapidly phased out of most U.S. and European vaccines."
2) "Much progress has been made to date in removing or reducing thimerosal in vaccines. New pediatric formulations of hepatitis B vaccines have been licensed by the FDA, Recombivax-HB (Merck, thimerosal free) in August 1999"
3) "The current scientific consensus is that no convincing scientific evidence supports the claims of a thimerosal-autism link" - and the 2011 journal article indicating such a link was later debunked.
So basically, he's gonna keep arguing like it's 1999 (pun intended) and that the medical industry itself hasn't moved to find better preservatives just to remove all doubt and reduce possible risks, etc. I see... Thank goodness for Phase and the gang!!
Quote
You keep defending those toolbags P&T like they are your friends or something, whatever, the video is too vague to be taken into account for anything and is aimed at people who cant understand anything as complex as a basic graph.
And you keep attacking them since you got here like they did some far out Doctor Oz show (Hey, grapes can cure cancer!!!) and their advice was somehow equivalent when all that they did is reiterate/mirror the same damn position/advice professionals in the medical industry have! Only toolbag I see here is you! Their point was rock solid, even with the suspicion that preservatives like thimerosal caused autism in 1 out of 110, the overwhelming benefits of vaccines to society past/present outweigh the small risks! Get over it! And since thimerosal has been in the process of being phased out SINCE 1999, what exactly does the anti-vaccine crowd hope to still accomplish by acting like it's 15 years ago and still believing the debunked autism-link ?
Quote
You keep your mouth shut about tap water man. how dare you question the majority of people and the city. don't you ever voice an opinion questioning water safety. mercury, lead, insecticides, chlorine are nutritious. kidding aside, if you feel its unsafe its ok to try and raise awareness to make it safer wouldn't you say. or should you be labeled into some group and called a conspiracy nut.
Blah blah blah, question everything, trust no one, they're lying to you!!!! DON'T YOU BELIEVE 'EM!!!!
Quote
Faulty logic? While I agree mistakes can happen, I'm talking about using unsafe ingredients and pushing drugs with little benefits that could have harmful side-effects because they want to make more money. All you have to do is listen to a couple of these drug commercials, I mean they are laughable. When I said pharmaceutical companies care more about making money than they care about your child's health. I meant like cigarette companies care about making money more than they care about producing healthier cigarettes. -sure its not the best analogy
You're right, that's a terrible analogy; a cigarette company deliberately puts toxic substances in their products to make them more addictive and ensure continued use, even knowing of the eventual lung cancer that the product can cause. The use of thimerosal by the medical industry was to preserve and protect the vaccine and keep it from causing an infection and killing you, etc. The goals were noble, it just wasn't the best substance to use. Now since better alternatives are being phased in, you and the hysteria crowd can stop discouraging people from vaccination and from going as far as denying history as to the overwhelming benefits vaccines have been to industrialized society and keeping fatal diseases under control!!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 05, 2015, 09:44:26 AM
OK, so he's talking about thimerosal which was used as a vaccine preservative since the 1930s.
1) "Since 1999, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine makers to remove thiomersal from vaccines as quickly as possible as a purely precautionary measure, and it was rapidly phased out of most U.S. and European vaccines."
2) "Much progress has been made to date in removing or reducing thimerosal in vaccines. New pediatric formulations of hepatitis B vaccines have been licensed by the FDA, Recombivax-HB (Merck, thimerosal free) in August 1999"
3) "The current scientific consensus is that no convincing scientific evidence supports the claims of a thimerosal-autism link" - and the 2011 journal article indicating such a link was later debunked.
So basically, he's gonna keep arguing like it's 1999 (pun intended) and that the medical industry itself hasn't moved to find better preservatives just to remove all doubt and reduce possible risks, etc. I see... Thank goodness for Phase and the gang!!
Do the 2014-2015 seasonal flu vaccines contain thimerosal?
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved several formulations of the seasonal flu vaccine, including multi-dose vials and single-dose units. (See Table of Approved Influenza Vaccines for the U.S. 2014–2015 Season.) Since seasonal influenza vaccine is produced in large quantities for annual vaccination campaigns, some of the vaccine is produced in multi-dose vials, and contains thimerosal to safeguard against possible contamination of the vial once it is opened.
The single-dose units are made without thimerosal as a preservative because they are intended to be opened and used only once. Additionally, the live-attenuated version of the vaccine (the nasal spray vaccine), is produced in single-dose units and does not contain thimerosal.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 05, 2015, 09:51:04 AM
I guess you couldn't be bothered to read the rest of that page, eh? You know, the parts that say thimerosal is NOT a serious hazard.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: NightWolve on February 05, 2015, 09:52:58 AM
OH MY GAWWWD! YOU'RE RIGHT!!!
OH WAIT, FROM THE SAME LINK!
Quote
Is thimerosal being used in other vaccines?
Since 2001, no new vaccine licensed by FDA for use in children has contained thimerosal as a preservative, and all vaccines routinely recommended by CDC for children younger than 6 years of age have been thimerosal-free, or contain only trace amounts of thimerosal, except for some formulations of influenza vaccine. The most recent and rigorous scientific research does not support the argument that thimerosal-containing vaccines are harmful. CDC and FDA continually evaluate new scientific information about the safety of vaccines.
Quote
Is thimerosal in vaccines safe?
There is a large body of scientific evidence on the safety of thimerosal. Data from several studies show the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines do not cause harm, and are only associated with minor local injection site reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.
CDC, FDA, and the National Institutes of Health [NIH]) have reviewed the published research on thimerosal and found it to be a safe product to use in vaccines. Three independent organizations (The National Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Medicine, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices [ACIP], and the American Academy of Pediatrics [AAP]) also reviewed the published research and found thimerosal to be a safe product to use in vaccines. The medical community supports the use of thimerosal in influenza vaccines to protect against potential contamination of multi-dose vials
And from my previous post:
Quote
Much progress has been made to date in removing or reducing thimerosal in vaccines
I guess you couldn't be bothered to read the rest of that page, eh? You know, the parts that say thimerosal is NOT a serious hazard.
Exactly, selective quoting.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: esteban on February 05, 2015, 09:56:26 AM
This thread is still depressing.
Medicine and science are good things, people.
There are a LOT of valid critiques of medicine and science, but THE CURRENT VACCINES ARE NOT a problem.
******* Apparently, many motherf*ckers can't read, because the VERY STUDY THAT FOUND THE VACCINE <--> AUTISM LINK was completed discredited. It was a huge news story. BEFORE IT WAS OFFICIALLY DISCREDITED, however, any reasonable person would STILL get their kids vaccinated because the benefits still outweighed the *alleged* risks.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 05, 2015, 10:09:55 AM
Blah blah blah, question everything, trust no one, they're lying to you!!!! DON'T YOU BELIEVE 'EM!!!!
I can just post the opposite of that. blah blah blah, sit on the couch believing everything on TV and never look into anything more in depth or formulate your own opinions. :-k Be sure and label people crazy if they oppose mainstream opinions.
You're right, that's a terrible analogy; a cigarette company deliberately puts toxic substances in their products to make them more addictive and ensure continued use, even knowing of the eventual lung cancer that the product can cause. .............
The analogy is directed toward drug companies in general and not specifically vaccines. If you look at some of these drugs you could.. lets say get 2 side effects for every prescription drug your taking but don't worry theres a drug for that side effect... I'm jesting here a bit based on those crazy drug commercials. :roll:
I don't think its absurd, look into how scary mercury is to your health.
Ingesting large amounts is dangerous, but scientific evidence says the small amount in vaccines is not. Nor is the amount found in seafood, dental amalgam, etc. a serious concern.
That's exactly what you're saying. Everyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that there's inherent risk in ANY medical procedure, so what you're doing is using those minor concerns as an excuse to not get vaccines.
I'm pretty sure thats not exactly what I'm saying.
Blah blah blah, question everything, trust no one, they're lying to you!!!! DON'T YOU BELIEVE 'EM!!!!
I can just post the opposite of that. blah blah blah, sit on the couch believing everything on TV and never look into anything more in depth or formulate your own opinions. :-k Be sure and label people crazy if they oppose mainstream opinions.
At this point, I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish. They've been phasing thimerosal out since 1999, it's mostly been replaced, but if used, it's reduced in amount, etc. That's being done to remove all doubt even though studies still showed the amounts used didn't cause harm, and were limited to things like redness and swelling at the injection site. That's what I'm seeing here.
So, progress continues, and when science finds an even better preservative with zero mercury compounds that can be used for where they think they still need to use it, great! Is anybody against that ? No! F--king-A, let's move on and stop the hysteria!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 05, 2015, 10:56:38 AM
Well I still think some of the other ingredients in that article I posted are crazy. But I don't need to argue about it. I respect you guy's opinions, and we can ultimately agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: toymachine78 on February 05, 2015, 12:31:17 PM
Please lock this....
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: roflmao on February 05, 2015, 05:00:03 PM
This thread is absurd.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: nodtveidt on February 06, 2015, 12:31:11 AM
Phase, mercury is toxic to humans, yes... but there is this thing called a toxicity threshold... that is to say, a given chemical component is not toxic unless its quantity surpasses a certain amount. The toxicity threshold of mercury is 1ppm. Above that, hydrargyria is possible. The mercury concentration in vaccines is way lower than this. You are way more at risk of hydrargyria from simply eating fish.
EDIT: Btw, stop getting your info from "naturalnews" and Dr. Mercola.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: ProfessorProfessorson on February 06, 2015, 12:42:13 AM
You're really good at this kind of stuff Phase. I suggest you get on that lizard people problem right away. You know, the ones controlling all of the worlds political structure? I bet you could bust that shit right open and prove they are real.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: toymachine78 on February 06, 2015, 01:15:31 AM
You're really good at this kind of stuff Phase. I suggest you get on that lizard people problem right away. You know, the ones controlling all of the worlds political structure? I bet you could bust that shit right open and prove they are real.
They are real. David Icke says so. :P
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: nodtveidt on February 06, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
As for vaccines/anti-vaxxers, sure, it is okay to have some doubts. But TALK TO A GOD DAMNED DOCTOR/SCIENTIST/PHARMACIST ABOUT YOUR DOUBTS. Don't turn to Dr Oz, Jenny McCarthy, or even Penn & Teller. Do some f*cking real research.
And Phase, if you are worried about man made chemicals entering your body, I sure hope you have a sustainable food/water supply at your own home. If not, say hello to thousands of things you are putting into your body that are not "natural".
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: EvilEvoIX on February 06, 2015, 03:46:29 AM
Lizard people are all within our Government. Louis C.K. sniffed on out here:
Link http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQyCkwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdK8Y2nO_8TM&ei=pe_UVPb1Gq6HsQTI9IDQCg&usg=AFQjCNHUJbmD3Os1qCyrRdz_Z5far-ppvw&sig2=1AjBOwQyJXoE9mYUOG7s-w
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 06, 2015, 07:03:30 AM
lolz, I guess if you question vaccines you believe in lizard aliens from mars now lol better get my They Live shades on 8)
While I'm sure to most adults the mercury levels are low enough now not to really effect them. I am still concerned about small kids and look at all the other crap in these shots. Remember this is directly into your blood and not ingesting where your body is able to filter more. What and who are these vaccines tested on and for how long, what are long term side effects and are these even being looked at? I am doubting they are doing 20 year tests before they roll one of these things out. You have to remember this is a business and not some all loving mother making these things. I'd like to see better treatment once you have one of these viruses. And having better non vaccine prevention.
Here is an interesting article thats more on topic http://www.healthsentinel.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2752:the-vaccine-war-a-forgotten-history&catid=5:original&Itemid=24
"What their data shows is a large 98.6% decrease in death from measles from 1912-1963 when the measles vaccine was introduced"
What would the graphs look like if vaccines were not used, would they flatten out.. what do you think?
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 06, 2015, 07:10:14 AM
You're dumber than a sack of hammers.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Phase on February 06, 2015, 07:29:00 AM
Very constructive Necro
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: mitsuman on February 06, 2015, 08:14:04 AM
You just basically said having a better non-preventing prevention to diseases.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Necromancer on February 06, 2015, 08:27:52 AM
Constructive or not, it's 100% accurate. If you weren't such a bleeding idiot, here's a few things that wouldn't need explaining:
1) NOBODY is arguing that thiomersal is good for you; it's already been removed from most all vaccines, and the few that still use it are also available in thiomersal free versions; and there are ZERO scientific studies that suggest it's a substantial risk anyway. Why do you keep bringing it up like it's important?
2) Most vaccines in use today have been in use for more than 20 years, yet not a one of 'em has proven to pose a substantial risk. The idea that they're full of unknowns, untested, and dangerous is just laughable.
3) Arguing for better treatment after the fact in lieu of vaccines is equally ridiculous. Who in their right mind would prefer to get deathly ill yet live instead of never getting the disease at all? I suppose the doctors and drug companies would love that, though, as then they'd get to rake in the cash for all the extra office visits, treatments, and hospital stays.
4) Those stats have nothing to do with the efficacy or risks of vaccines, so what's your point? Are you really trying to say that virtually zero deaths today is no better than 40 deaths per year (based on the mortality rate in '63) plus the thousands of kids that'd get sick but live?!? That drop in the mortality rate since 1900 is mostly due to medical advancements and improved access to care (you'll find similar drops for ALL maladies over the same period), so you'd be better off looking at how measles vaccines have helped in developing countries: 75% drop since 2000.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 06, 2015, 10:10:55 AM
Best part of childhood immunisation. Its free! Its all free!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: cjameslv on February 06, 2015, 10:27:15 AM
If peeps don't want to get their kiddos vaccinated, I'm okay with it as long as they stay the f*ck home. Don't put others at risk.
umm...if your vaccinated, how are you at risk?
Not everyone can be vaccinated. Very young children are not able to until a certain age, or children with immune disorders or those fighting cancer. Also a small percentage of the population just doesn't build the immunities well even with the vaccine. Those people are protected from getting something like measles because of herd-immunity.
Essentially it works like this. If the vast majority of the population is immune to something already because of vaccinations, then those who are unable to have the vaccination and make the antibodies are protected basically because no one that they would come in contact with would have it.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: nodtveidt on February 06, 2015, 03:26:27 PM
While I'm sure to most adults the mercury levels are low enough now not to really effect them. I am still concerned about small kids and look at all the other crap in these shots. Remember this is directly into your blood and not ingesting where your body is able to filter more. What and who are these vaccines tested on and for how long, what are long term side effects and are these even being looked at? I am doubting they are doing 20 year tests before they roll one of these things out. You have to remember this is a business and not some all loving mother making these things. I'd like to see better treatment once you have one of these viruses. And having better non vaccine prevention.
These non-arguments have been used by antivaxxers for years and years now. The answers are simple:
-There is negligible difference in mercurial toxicity between children and adults. Not only that, but the mercury concentration used in older vaccines was still way, way below the toxicity level for even infants. This is probably the oldest and most easily debunked scares in all of the history of anti-vax lunacy. -What "other crap"? Be more specific. -The method of introduction is immaterial. This is a nonsense argument. -There is no need to do long-term testing of this type for two reasons. One, long-term testing "in the wild" has already been done with vaccines that came long before, and two, scientists already know about all possible contraindications. It is a pointless waste of time to do extensive testing when you already know the shit works. -Microsoft is a business, yet most people use Windows and not Linux. This is a bullshit argument. -The whole point of vaccines is to prevent people from getting preventable diseases. -Yeah... ask Steve Jobs how well "alternative medicine" worked out for him. Oh wait...
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Punch on February 06, 2015, 03:58:44 PM
I am fully vaccinated, I even took the Influenza Type A vaccine in the 2009 "outbreak". Maybe that's the reason I only write shit posts in online boards? Guess it's time to quarantine myself out of contact with other users (AKA post only on DoxPhile where no one will bother to go).
A piece of advice: close this thread.
seriously necro close it
or move it to Fighting Street before people get too serious here.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: esteban on February 07, 2015, 04:36:51 AM
I still love Punch.
Anyway, this thread is a testament to why we suck my left one.
We will always find something to fight over.
I just find it more fun to fight over trivial shit (like why Dragon Spirit PCE is awesome and you suck if you don't like it. YOU SUCK. And it has so many great songs. SUCK MY LEFT ONE.)
I love you all.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: sunteam_paul on February 07, 2015, 04:57:12 AM
Do homeopaths vaccinate themselves with water?
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: xelement5x on February 07, 2015, 09:28:16 AM
Don't get me started on homeopaths, there was some dude trying to sell a homeopathic cure to Ebola several months ago and I was like WTF?!
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: Jibbajaba on February 07, 2015, 10:58:29 AM
A doctor tells you to vaccinate your kids, but hey he's just part of the big pharma machine.
BETTER LISTEN TO JENNY MCCARTHY INSTEAD.
f*cking Morons. You f*cking morons brought back measles. MEASLES! What's next, the black plague? Jesus f*cking Christ. Phase, what's your stance on airplane contrails and on 9/11? Serious question.
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: wildfruit on February 07, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
yea. As long as its Evian though. Nothing else will do. Seriously though if I was in charge, I would make NHS vaccinations compulsory. Too many hipster parents choosing to opt out now places a potential burden in a generation's time that could easily be avoided. Seriously who wants polio to resurge??
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: cjameslv on February 07, 2015, 03:56:03 PM
Title: Re: Anti-Vaccine/Vaccination Movement
Post by: technozombie on February 08, 2015, 09:10:26 AM
Well I'm a little late to this thread but....
Everything in life is associated with risks, getting on the road to go to work increases your chance of getting hit by a car. It's a calculated decision, the odds of you getting killed on the road are slim enough that you(most of you anyways) continue to do it. There really is no other option besides getting vaccinated. Without vaccinations the risk of deadly/crippling disease would be so much higher than the potential for side effects of the shot itself.
My son started to show signs of tourrets syndrome at the age of 10. This was not caused by a vaccine. It sucks but sometimes things just happen, that is part of life.