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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: musicman130 on April 16, 2016, 12:48:56 PM
Title: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: musicman130 on April 16, 2016, 12:48:56 PM
I've noticed when playing shmups that I am 1000X better at vertical than horizontal. Does anyone else have the same experience or are you all equal at them?
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Killjoyy027 on April 16, 2016, 01:05:46 PM
I would agree with on how much better I am with vertical as well, it's not to say I do not like horizontal but I am so much worse at them.
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Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: shubibiman on April 16, 2016, 01:21:30 PM
Horizontal shmups are generally harder because in most of them, there are walls or pieces of setting you can crash into.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on April 16, 2016, 04:27:42 PM
Horizontal shmups are generally harder because in most of them, there are walls or pieces of setting you can crash into.
Yes. :)
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: ClodBuster on April 16, 2016, 05:35:18 PM
Shmups? Like, shrooms?
By the way, horizontal shooters for me. I just need to be able to crash into the environment to get my shootie fix. However, Salamander has some really relentless vertical stages including environmental hazards that you need to pass carefully with lightning fast speed, I wish other games would too.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: wildfruit on April 16, 2016, 07:54:31 PM
I am rubbish at both. But more so horizontally.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: blueraven on April 16, 2016, 08:00:48 PM
Better at vert, but working on my horizontal :lol:
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Black Tiger on April 17, 2016, 03:55:46 AM
Horizontal shooters have always felt natural to me and vertical games in general feel like a weird off shoot. I don't have trouble with either though and how challengine anything is, is just down to a game-by-game basis.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: wilykat on April 17, 2016, 04:01:32 AM
what about diagonal shmups? Zaxxon is probably the best known diagonal shoot up game. Simulated 3D environment means you have to look for hazards above, below, and both sides in addition to watching what's in front of your ship.
Another shmups is Star Strike for Intellivision, and Galaxy Force & Afterburner (arcade and Sega console). It's also 3D like Zaxxon.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: ClodBuster on April 17, 2016, 04:04:23 AM
I could never get into anything isometric or diagonal but the Sims. Sorry.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: wildfruit on April 17, 2016, 06:55:34 AM
Isometric is my favourite outlook.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Black Tiger on April 17, 2016, 07:13:37 AM
I've never liked isometric games, even though there are exceptions. They're usually not executed well enough.
Not crazy about into the screen shumps either. Panzer Dragoons are cool though.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Dicer on April 17, 2016, 09:35:11 AM
Better at verts, prefer horizontals over all I think, but yeah moer landscape to crash into in hori's...
Also, I will play a horizontal in 16:9 and give ZERO f*cks, come at me.
Verts if they have an "arcade" mode I will do that, sometimes.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Gredler on April 17, 2016, 09:40:08 AM
Suck at but enjoy both equilally.the aspect ratio of my TVs make horiztonal games look nicer than vertical ges, no Tate options here
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 17, 2016, 09:50:49 AM
I like horizontal shooters more because they tend to be more creative and have much more interesting graphics. Overhead shooters are usually very plain and one-note. There are exceptions like MUSHA and Galactic Attack. Games like Soldier Blade are pretty damn sparse but at least it's fun. Blazing Lazers gets boring very quickly for me. There's not much special about it. It could benefit from levels that are a half hour shorter than they are. Horizontal shooters are just more interesting and I think they are likely more difficult to make.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Dicer on April 17, 2016, 09:57:35 AM
I like horizontal shooters more because they tend to be more creative and have much more interesting graphics. Overhead shooters are usually very plain and one-note. There are exceptions like MUSHA and Galactic Attack. Games like Soldier Blade are pretty damn sparse but at least it's fun. Blazing Lazers gets boring very quickly for me. There's not much special about it. It could benefit from levels that are a half hour shorter than they are. Horizontal shooters are just more interesting and I think they are likely more difficult to make.
When are you guys gonna crowdfund a rubber feet hori shewty?
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 17, 2016, 10:10:46 AM
I'm not sure which is which, is R-Type horizontal? That's the one I like.
However, I think the last "all in" holy shit wowzers shooter of that style was probably Pulstar. There aren't a lot of them made after the PCE era so I do play a lot of the other type.
And yes, the horizontal ones are more obstical based, but I'm not sure how much that has to do with the format itself. Around the time horizontals died in the early/mid 90s, shooters went into hybernation in general, most of them not even getting home ports. Then by the time things got moving again in the DC era Cave had done a lot of work to change the scene to a more score/combo based way of doing things and they happen to prefer vertical stuff with zero obsticals. If the Nazca guys had had a hit with In the Hunt instead of Metal Slug things may have turned out differently.
Btw, "shmup" is stupid term. Quit it. It sounds like a bowel movement or a line of cologne marketed by the guys from Duck Dynasty. f*ck.
Not as stupid as playing the things stretched 4x in one direction and not at all in the other though, meaning that things traveling at a 45deg angle move faster left to right that they do up and down. I can see the interest in that, psychedelically speaking, or maybe as an extra challenging funhouse mode or something, but it's the video game equivalent to installing a nose bra on a sports car. All it does is identify the owner as someone who doesn't see what the point is in owning the thing they are so proud of in the first place.
You asked for it, what can I say...
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on April 17, 2016, 10:49:12 AM
Please use the current term which "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
Don't forget vertis, diagos and intos. Nu gamers like to count first person shooters as shumps as well (and Zeldas as the most legendary RPG series of all).
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 17, 2016, 12:55:07 PM
I don't have anywhere near as many problems with abbreviations. "Schmup" is some other thing though. A mush mouth's portmanteau of a vaudeville-esque description of "shooter".
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: EmperorIng on April 17, 2016, 03:53:39 PM
It doesn't sound nearly as dumb as "shewtie" though. [-(
Horizontal shmups are generally harder because in most of them, there are walls or pieces of setting you can crash into.
I don't find this to really be the case. The walls/environment themselves aren't really an added difficulty factor unless you are an IREM game, or Gradius III. Heck, most PC Engine shooters are so easy/forgiving that their orientation doesn't even matter.
Later Verticals trounce most horizontals in the difficulty department, simply because there has been more verticals made and the genre was more heavily refined in that direction. DoDonPachi DaiOuJou is about as hard as any shooter ever made, along with the likes of Gunbird 2.
In regards to the OP's original point, verticals tend to be easier to make progress in, though (to say nothing of actually BEATING them), because it's easier for our eyes to read up-to-down (following where attacks are coming from), than right-to-left or left-to-right in horizontals. You have generally a better sense of your bearings when it comes to maneuvering enemy attacks, because you have a relatively limited amount of horizontal movement to make when reacting to attacks.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: lukester on April 17, 2016, 04:11:09 PM
Please use the current term which "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
Don't forget vertis, diagos and intos. Nu gamers like to count first person shooters as shumps as well (and Zeldas as the most legendary RPG series of all).
Just want to make a point...since BT hates on Nintendo fans a little too much sometimes. Let's talk about the actual modern perspective.
Zelda is not as renowned as it used to be. Many "hardcore" gamers play dark souls, and everyone else plays elder scrolls. Zelda U (nx) is also gonna have to live up to witcher 3. The wii u is a dead console. I've sold mine recently as there are no more games coming out! Hopefully the NX does well.
Hell, even my stoner football friend plays only two games. Madden, and dark souls. Could be an exception though.
I'm actually playing through bloodborne right now. It's my first souls game, but despite the challenge it's an incredible experience.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: SamIAm on April 17, 2016, 05:08:09 PM
I think that the reason why relatively modern shooters tend to be vertical is that bullet movement from the top of the screen to the bottom feels easier to track. I don't know if it's because of a sense of gravity, or if it's because the bullets seem more like they're coming directly at you this way.
All I know is, when I play a horizontal shooter, I feel like I'm controlling a ship in a totally different space, but when I'm playing a vertical shooter, I feel like I am the ship.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: blueraven on April 17, 2016, 06:17:01 PM
I don't have anywhere near as many problems with abbreviations. "Schmup" is some other thing though. A mush mouth's portmanteau of a vaudeville-esque description of "shooter".
On the same logic, I suppose the term shewtie equally annoys you then?
Please use the current term which "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
Don't forget vertis, diagos and intos. Nu gamers like to count first person shooters as shumps as well (and Zeldas as the most legendary RPG series of all).
Just want to make a point...since BT hates on Nintendo fans a little too much sometimes. Let's talk about the actual modern perspective.
Zelda is not as renowned as it used to be. Many "hardcore" gamers play dark souls, and everyone else plays elder scrolls. Zelda U (nx) is also gonna have to live up to witcher 3. The wii u is a dead console. I've sold mine recently as there are no more games coming out! Hopefully the NX does well.
Hell, even my stoner football friend plays only two games. Madden, and dark souls. Could be an exception though.
I'm actually playing through bloodborne right now. It's my first souls game, but despite the challenge it's an incredible experience.
I guess you've never heard the term "Zelda-good"? My post had nothing to do with Nintendo and you talked about a completely different type of gamer. I was talking about people who discuss games that are before their time and their skewed perspective of genres and need for ridiculous terminology.
You're talking about games which haven't even been released yet and people who only play a limited number of current games and nothing else.
It doesn't matter how good anyone thinks the Zelda games are, it's not an RPG series. Shining Force, Snatcher and Populous are not RPGs. Shining Force at least incorporates RPG elements, but just like Langrisser, they're war sims. Gradius, Twinbee, Space Harrier and Doom are not the same genre.
Maybe you take all of these lame terms for granted and don't realize what we're talking about?
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: majors on April 18, 2016, 12:47:50 AM
Blazing Lazers gets boring very quickly for me. There's not much special about it. It could benefit from levels that are a half hour shorter than they are.
You gotta remember when it came out(I think the term is "context"). We wanted our 50 bucks to give us the most game play, even if it was slow, long levels. I've realized that in the late 90's, arcade dev's where going with the more-is-better line of thought, keep adding more levels to grind(and take players quarters). I give Cave credit to re-vitalizing the scene with the bullet hell, 5 level format. Short and sweet. Just look at 1944 Loop Master...15 levels of yawn, sure it looks good and sound amazing but the more-is-better game design was stale then.
... Then by the time things got moving again in the DC era Cave had done a lot of work to change the scene to a more score/combo based way of doing things and they happen to prefer vertical stuff with zero obsticals.
Do not forget ProGear, Akai Katana or Death Smiles. Tate is def more popular, but hori is still alive.
As for the original post, I prefer horizontal shooters. Ever since Super Cobra, I was a fan. Thunderforce 3 solidified my passion for the genre. I'm lucky to have fellow PCB friends that love then even more and drop bank on the newer(at the time) Cave boards so I could at least experience them, even if most of them are vertical. "Bug Bitch 2" is still my fave for that style.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Black Tiger on April 18, 2016, 01:11:05 AM
On the same logic, I suppose the term shewtie equally annoys you then?
I don't like it, but it's no where near the level of Shump. I don't know if I'm surprised that more random terms like platters, warms, dics, actors, firsoners, sporms, fmalls, etc aren't common, or if I just don't hear them because I don't post on forums like NeoGAF.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: TheClash603 on April 18, 2016, 03:24:32 AM
Isn't shmup an abbreviation for shoot-em-up? Because the other big genre during the period were Final Fight type games, formerly referred to as beat-em-ups?
I don't really dislike shmup, I am more disappointed by the lack of the term bemup.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Necromancer on April 18, 2016, 03:26:28 AM
I don't really have a preference for either horizontal or vertical shewties (or whatever you'd call fixed screen games like Meteor Blaster DX or Space Invaders). I've got favorites in both camps, but my skillz are meager no matter which way the screen scrolls.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: jtucci31 on April 18, 2016, 11:34:59 AM
I find it hard to equate one specific type of shooter to it being more difficult than another, because there are certainly exceptions within each.
Though to answer the question, I think I like horizontal shooters slightly more, mainly because Gate of Thunder is such a great game.
But Salamander is the best shooter because you get the best of both worlds :mrgreen:
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2016, 12:01:42 PM
I love VHD shoot-em-ups.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Otaking on April 18, 2016, 12:18:07 PM
Please use the current term which is "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
I've just looked it up and actually the Schumps forum glossary says it's “Horzie”. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11882&p=1083937#p1083937
Quote from: Schumps Glossary
Horizontal Shmup: ( also Side-Scroller) “Horzie” for short. A shmup where the action progresses, via background scrolling, from left to right, and is generally seen from a “side view” by the player.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2016, 12:25:31 PM
Please use the current term which is "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
I've just looked it up and actually the Schumps forum glossary says it's “Horzie”. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11882&p=1083937#p1083937
Quote from: Schumps Glossary
Horizontal Shmup: ( also Side-Scroller) “Horzie” for short. A shmup where the action progresses, via background scrolling, from left to right, and is generally seen from a “side view” by the player.
My cousin Beau wanted a pony for his birthday.
But my brother Madison thought I would be more fun to get a horzie.
"Steeplechase," he murmured, whilst choosing his next polo club.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Black Tiger on April 18, 2016, 01:14:33 PM
Please use the current term which is "hori", saying horizontal is so dated.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQviZHzODrs&t=0m13s#)
I've just looked it up and actually the Schumps forum glossary says it's “Horzie”. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11882&p=1083937#p1083937
Quote from: Schumps Glossary
Horizontal Shmup: ( also Side-Scroller) “Horzie” for short. A shmup where the action progresses, via background scrolling, from left to right, and is generally seen from a “side view” by the player.
These are people who do not enjoy shooters and are just trying to taint the experience for others.
What is the hip term for vertical, "Vercies"?
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: blueraven on April 18, 2016, 02:02:17 PM
Isn't shmup an abbreviation for shoot-em-up? Because the other big genre during the period were Final Fight type games, formerly referred to as beat-em-ups?
I don't really dislike shmup, I am more disappointed by the lack of the term bemup.
I suppose the main difference would be that I've never heard anyone who wasn't a grandpa or British use the term "shoot-em-up" to describe a 2D scrolling shooter. Ever. "Beat-em-up" honestly became a good term to use after Street Fighter II, to distinguish one on one Vs games from ones where you and a friend team up to waste 367 dudes in 20 minutes.
As for "shewtee" or whatever. I don't care. It's just another infantile PCEFX term, I can handle it. Unlike "shmup" (honestly, I can't even type that word without swearing under my breath). "Shmup" is all over the Internet. Also, as unsuccessfully cute as fans of "shootie" (whatever) can be, none of them, and this is important, think that it's a real word, the standard term for something. They all know the f*cking things are called shooters.
Has anyone ever counted all the times EGM, Diehard, etc used the term "shmup" during the genre's glory days? (Or let's say from EGM#1 to the last issue of Gamefan)? I'm betting it's zero, or extremely close to it. Maybe a Brittish staffer or someone using it in quotes.
Title: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2016, 02:46:20 PM
Isn't shmup an abbreviation for shoot-em-up? Because the other big genre during the period were Final Fight type games, formerly referred to as beat-em-ups?
I don't really dislike shmup, I am more disappointed by the lack of the term bemup.
I suppose the main difference would be that I've never heard anyone who wasn't a grandpa or British use the term "shoot-em-up" to describe a 2D scrolling shooter. Ever. "Beat-em-up" honestly became a good term to use after Street Fighter II, to distinguish one on one Vs games from ones where you and a friend team up to waste 367 dudes in 20 minutes.
As for "shewtee" or whatever. I don't care. It's just another infantile PCEFX term, I can handle it. Unlike "shmup" (honestly, I can't even type that word without swearing under my breath). "Shmup" is all over the Internet. Also, as unsuccessfully cute as fans of "shootie" (whatever) can be, none of them, and this is important, think that it's a real word, the standard term for something. They all know the f*cking things are called shooters.
Has anyone ever counted all the times EGM, Diehard, etc used the term "shmup" during the genre's glory days? (Or let's say from EGM#1 to the last issue of Gamefan)? I'm betting it's zero, or extremely close to it. Maybe a Brittish staffer or someone using it in quotes.
I think that shmup was a British term, but that would be based on reading a FAQ over at shmups.co.uk.britannia.faulkland.com 10-15 years ago...
I actually don't mind shootie/shewtie/sheedy,ally as a shortening of "shooter"
And "shoot-em-up" has an appealing "Hollywood gangster film from 1930's" flair that I can't deny.
Of course, it probably best fits the Western (as a genre of film), but I have never been the biggest fan of Westerns.
SHOOTER. STR. SHT.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: imparanoic on April 18, 2016, 03:37:08 PM
shame that pc engine game don't have tate mode for vertical shooters
has any one tried tate mode with their TV rotated?
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: blueraven on April 18, 2016, 04:06:12 PM
As for "shewtee" or whatever. I don't care. It's just another infantile PCEFX term, I can handle it. Unlike "shmup"
heh, sounds good. Ironically, I completely agree. As far as it being "infantile", well it is techinically a hipster term. :lol: :lol:
Gotta give some props to Tatsujin, even if he has abandoned us for FB.
And +5 points to esteban for that last post :lol:
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: Arkhan on April 18, 2016, 05:29:28 PM
I get annoyed in horishewters that spend too much time making you dodge terrain. Just let me blow shit up.
f*ck off with your walls and volcanos, Gradius.
Rabio Lepus and Paranoia are great though.
And Downloaddddddd.
Vertical always emphasizes blowing shits tits off. I prefer this
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Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: SoulflySolid on May 17, 2016, 10:00:04 AM
I would say I'm pretty average at both. My biggest problem is usually the bullet color, if it blends in to the backgrounds it makes the game harder for me.
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Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on May 18, 2016, 04:26:37 AM
Chooter is life.
Choot Choot
Also, Salamander is the best of both worlds. Verti Schumps and Hori Schumps all in one!
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: KPat on June 13, 2016, 07:24:56 PM
Same as the rest of you fine folks, I find vertical shoot em ups a bit easier than the horizontal, despite the fact that I enjoy playing the horizontal ones much more. Curious why everybody seems to be of the same opinion, wonder if it's tracking bullets as mentioned, or something about the gameplay or even weapon powerups in the vertical ones. Certainly seems easier to fill a screen with shrapnel when scrolling from below!
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: StarDust4Ever on June 17, 2016, 12:59:38 AM
I think vertical orientation is my fav, though it depends on the game. I enjoy both simple retro arcade style single screen as well as scrollers with continuous barrages of enemies. I agree terrains get in the way of horizontal shooters. I already have to dodge bullets and enemies; don't make me dodge static land masses, buildings, navigate narrow caves or other obstacles. Games like Blazing Lazers, Super Star Soldier are awesome due to their symmetry, openness, and the fact vertical orientation really puts you in the cockpit. If vertical shooters had one disadvantage, it's that you can't rotate that sweet widescreen on it's side and play them upright with an extended playfield.
But I also have a soft spot for Cute-Em-Ups. Parodius I am a huge fan and own all three Super Famicom titles. Am I allowed to say that here? Air Zonk, Magical Chase are also great despite being all horizontal. It's really all about mechanics, pacing, enemy density, and making good use of screen space.
As for usage of the word SHMUP, I rather use it than shooter, because when someone says shooter, people immediately think fps dual stick type stuff. I loathe that crap. In the same way, beatemups (1 vs world) is a distintive genre from fighters (1 vs 1). Shootie just sounds dumb, and I've never heard that term before, but I don't keep up with twatter and facepalm. I bet a millenial coined it. Sounds like something a Justin Beiber or Miley Sirus would say...
Regardless, I'm quite fond of the way Shmup rolls off my tougue when pronounced phonetically. Not many English words combine the sh and m constanants, but it works!
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: MNKyDeth on June 17, 2016, 01:16:36 AM
As for usage of the word SHMUP, I rather use it than shooter, because when someone says shooter, people immediately think fps dual stick type stuff. I loathe that crap. In the same way, beatemups (1 vs world) is a distintive genre from fighters (1 vs 1). Shootie just sounds dumb, and I've never heard that term before, but I don't keep up with twatter and facepalm. I bet a millenial coined it. Sounds like something a Justin Beiber or Miley Sirus would say...
I don't like the word shmup but if I am being honest I have used it before. I definately prefer calling horizontal and vertical shooters.... "shooters".
When I hear the word shooters I think side scrolling first but am open to vertical when I see it. When I hear FPS, I think of keyboard, mouse. But I also feel any FPS style game on a console is an abomination unless you go all the way back to Doom, where this type of game actually played ok on the N64 and back. Get any more modern with the controller in an FPS and everything goes to shit, imo. At that point I need a keyboard and mouse and nothing else will do.
Btw, I love both vertical and horizontal but I am not real fond of bullet hell style shooters.
Title: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: esteban on June 19, 2016, 01:24:10 AM
Note: I don't mind physical obstacles in my shewties. I like the extra element.
Note: Some vertical chutees corral you (think Life Force NES and Armed Formation F) into choosing paths and avoiding walls/obstacles during segments of the stages.
Note: It is interesting that horizontal shootees were much more likely to have deadly physical environments. I think it shows how powerful established norms can be. Publishers felt more comfortable with successful formulas...sure, there was some experimentation...but the vertical/horizontal sub-genres were narrowly defined for vast array of arcade/8-bit/16-bit games.
Regardless, I love the early era of schüdeez, no matter how predictable and hackneyed they may be.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: VenomMacbeth on June 19, 2016, 03:51:52 AM
They're all STG.
No, not Strike Gunner.
Shootingu Geimu.
Title: Re: horizontal vs vertical shmups
Post by: wildfruit on June 19, 2016, 06:42:29 AM