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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: sanjo on October 05, 2016, 06:00:10 PM
Title: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: sanjo on October 05, 2016, 06:00:10 PM
I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of dracula x https://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4?t=1h20m59s
or this stage of gates of thunder https://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M?t=28m24s
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Arkhan on October 05, 2016, 06:01:42 PM
Ninja gaiden has bad math and stupidity.
Parallax can be done with 1 BG layer. what you're asking is how they faked layers.
You do it with sprites, or you use dynamic, animated background tiles to simulate depth.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: TheOldMan on October 05, 2016, 06:42:45 PM
Quote
I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling but it seems some games were able to do it
The pce has a pair of registers in the vdc that allows it to offset from the start of a screen. Strip-style parallax (where you have several horizontal strips that move at different speeds) is extremely easy to do.
Quote
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
Don't blame the machine. Blame the programmers.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Necromancer on October 06, 2016, 02:50:21 AM
It's all line scrolls, animated background tiles, sprites by themselves, occasionally the far background color (separate from the 'normal' background layer), or some combination thereof.
In your Dracula X example, most everything is standard strip style parallax with the only things overlapping anything being the columns, which are made of sprites. Also, see Ninja Spirit for a good example of animated tiles; the drawback of this approach is that tiles have square edges, which Ninja Spirit hides by using dark backgrounds and black infill on the foreground tiles with rounded edges.
Games like Ninja Gaiden aren't examples of the machine's limitations. They're just poorly executed and could undoubtedly be done better with more time, bigger roms, better talent (art and programming), etc.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on October 06, 2016, 04:52:13 AM
If you want to see the wrong way to do it look at Ninja Gaiden
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Keith Courage on October 06, 2016, 08:33:46 AM
I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of dracula x https://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4?t=1h20m59s
or this stage of gates of thunder https://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M?t=28m24s
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
That's a link to Lords of Thunder, not Gate of Thunder.
The PCE can do "parallax" style scrolling just like most 16bit systems; that is to say it divides sections of the background to scroll a different speeds. This can be done up to a single scanline to have the effect of "linescrolls".
What you're referring to is overlapping parallax. And that's obviously something more complicated to do with only one background. Like others have mentioned, sprites are often used to small overlapping parts.
Just look at the Dracula X example you listed. Everything is made up of a single background layer as different speeds. Only the pillars holding the bridge are overlapping, and they are sprites.
But as you're probably aware, you can only have soo many sprites on a single display line before flicker or blankout happens. There's another technique called dynamic tiles. Lords of Thunder does indeed use them in some places, but definitely not as common as it uses sprites for overlapping parts.
One great example of dynamic tiles in Lords of Thunder, is the sand level wit the giant sand dragon/thing. The sand part is dynamic tiles and allows the dragon's "body" to move back and forth, independent of the multi-scrolling layers of the sand. This is achieved because the sand is a single column of 8x8 blocks, repeated across the screen horizontally. Each 8x8 block in that column is pre-animated to a full left to right rotation.
Dynamic tiles has a restriction on complexity; both size in storage AND the cpu resource to upload each update per frame. On top of that, sprites can be combined with them for an even more convincing effect (the sand Dragon in LoT does this; the head and tops of spikes are sprites).
There is another techniques, but they are limited. But when combined in certain ways - allows more complex scrolling. Back ground color scrolling is one of them (the first stage of Magical Chase), or character scrolling (Ys 3). Character scrolling is definitely rough, but at high speeds it can be very convincing if done right.
Ninja Gaiden on PCE tries to do character scrolling, but messes it up really bad. Normally, parallax designed around games designed from the ground up for the system - tends to look really good. Ninja Gaiden on the PCE kind of a budget title. Ignoring the parallax itself, the background tilework/art is actually inferior to the NES one which incorporates depth to the platforms with less tiles than the PCE (the PCE is fairly flat looking - lacking depth in the side view).
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: sanjo on October 06, 2016, 03:18:26 PM
I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of dracula x https://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4?t=1h20m59s
or this stage of gates of thunder https://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M?t=28m24s
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
That's a link to Lords of Thunder, not Gate of Thunder.
The PCE can do "parallax" style scrolling just like most 16bit systems; that is to say it divides sections of the background to scroll a different speeds. This can be done up to a single scanline to have the effect of "linescrolls".
What you're referring to is overlapping parallax. And that's obviously something more complicated to do with only one background. Like others have mentioned, sprites are often used to small overlapping parts.
Just look at the Dracula X example you listed. Everything is made up of a single background layer as different speeds. Only the pillars holding the bridge are overlapping, and they are sprites.
But as you're probably aware, you can only have soo many sprites on a single display line before flicker or blankout happens. There's another technique called dynamic tiles. Lords of Thunder does indeed use them in some places, but definitely not as common as it uses sprites for overlapping parts.
One great example of dynamic tiles in Lords of Thunder, is the sand level wit the giant sand dragon/thing. The sand part is dynamic tiles and allows the dragon's "body" to move back and forth, independent of the multi-scrolling layers of the sand. This is achieved because the sand is a single column of 8x8 blocks, repeated across the screen horizontally. Each 8x8 block in that column is pre-animated to a full left to right rotation.
Dynamic tiles has a restriction on complexity; both size in storage AND the cpu resource to upload each update per frame. On top of that, sprites can be combined with them for an even more convincing effect (the sand Dragon in LoT does this; the head and tops of spikes are sprites).
There is another techniques, but they are limited. But when combined in certain ways - allows more complex scrolling. Back ground color scrolling is one of them (the first stage of Magical Chase), or character scrolling (Ys 3). Character scrolling is definitely rough, but at high speeds it can be very convincing if done right.
Ninja Gaiden on PCE tries to do character scrolling, but messes it up really bad. Normally, parallax designed around games designed from the ground up for the system - tends to look really good. Ninja Gaiden on the PCE kind of a budget title. Ignoring the parallax itself, the background tilework/art is actually inferior to the NES one which incorporates depth to the platforms with less tiles than the PCE (the PCE is fairly flat looking - lacking depth in the side view).
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations. it was exactly what I was looking for. Shame about Ninja Gaiden though. I thought scrolling aside, it looked great. Much better than the SNES remake. Very bright colors, details, and use of shading. Stage 2-2 reminds me of one of the Final Fantasy 6 areas.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Dicer on October 06, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
I think someone was hacking the Ninja Gaiden rom to kill the scrolling, if I recall, wonder what happened to that?
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Gredler on October 07, 2016, 04:12:13 AM
The dungeon explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Black Tiger on October 07, 2016, 05:23:15 AM
The dungeon explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Yep.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: technozombie on October 07, 2016, 09:32:29 AM
The dungeon explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Yep.
BT with the perfect breakdown.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Bonknuts on October 07, 2016, 02:35:51 PM
I forgot about these:
The sprites are the chroma ones (green or red). BG layer is black and white.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: sanjo on October 07, 2016, 03:00:58 PM
I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
Just to randomly add to this thread.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZIYM5Ew.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/OGGR3K6.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/P8wGe4n.gif)
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: geise on January 06, 2017, 02:51:19 AM
Fanfreakingtastic!!!! Love em! Thanks Digi.k
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Digi.k on January 15, 2017, 11:55:23 AM
Cotton (http://i.imgur.com/iLIDgmv.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/y3quWTQ.gif)
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Digi.k on January 15, 2017, 12:16:35 PM
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Digi.k on April 02, 2017, 09:42:32 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/VKhxkY9.gif)
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: geise on April 03, 2017, 04:31:17 AM
COMPUTER MAGIC!
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: SuperDeadite on April 03, 2017, 04:40:27 AM
There are NES games with multiple layers of parallax. If the NES can do it, the PCE most certainly can. And also the mighty NeoGeo only has one background as well.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: geise on April 03, 2017, 04:55:50 AM
There are NES games with multiple layers of parallax. If the NES can do it, the PCE most certainly can. And also the mighty NeoGeo only has one background as well.
Didn't some neo games use raster effects for line scrolling like Operation Ragnarok and Galaxy Fight?
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: ccovell on April 03, 2017, 01:43:49 PM
Yes, the Neo-Geo has a single non-scrolling background, used mainly just for score and text display. Everything else is Sprites. It's sprites all the way down.
But apparently, the sprite RAM can be modified mid-screen, allowing for per-scanline scaling & scrolling effects. (As in Ragnarok, intro to Sengoku 2)
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: fragmare on April 04, 2017, 05:28:07 AM
Yes, the Neo-Geo has a single non-scrolling background, used mainly just for score and text display. Everything else is Sprites. It's sprites all the way down.
But apparently, the sprite RAM can be modified mid-screen, allowing for per-scanline scaling & scrolling effects. (As in Ragnarok, intro to Sengoku 2)
Which I still think is hilarious. I almost think of the PC-Engine as the 8-bit era's NeoGeo... technically an 8-bit system (like the NeoGeo is technically a 16-bit system), but it's sheer power allowed it to compete with other systems that came much later.
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: elmer on April 04, 2017, 05:57:40 AM
Which I still think is hilarious. I almost think of the PC-Engine as the 8-bit era's NeoGeo... technically an 8-bit system (like the NeoGeo is technically a 16-bit system), but it's sheer power allowed it to compete with other systems that came much later.
Oooooo ... you've got to be careful there with bringing "technical" realities into the equation, since that makes the SNES an 8-bit system too, and the Nintendo Fanboys will go wild and attack! :wink:
Title: Re: how could some PCE games achieve parallax scrolling?
Post by: Digi.k on April 04, 2017, 08:42:02 AM