PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: Keranu on October 05, 2006, 07:06:26 PM
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Since GUTS has so cowardly avoided my challenge, further proving he's a coward by trying to start the debate again over AIM, lets make a new thread here and settle it.
This debate first started in a AIM chat one night between RuninRuder, GUTS, Zig (AKA, Emerald Rocker), and myself. It started off with some small talk comparing the three major 16-bit console's hardware when later GUTS boldly claims "there is no way in hell the pce could do ranger x", which is a pretty damn serious way to put it. To read through the debate, click here (http://www.freewebs.com/keranu/) . (Emerald Rocker is known as Exaxxion22 in the chat)
Let the debate of the century begin. :)
Here are some outrageous comments by GUTS and his very close friend, Emerald Rocker/Zig?Exaxxion in the chat for those who don't wish to read through it:
About PCE and Ranger X:
(01:03:40) Mr Grumplesworth: there is no way in hell the pce could do ranger x
Exaxxion22: Ranger-X does more than parallax
(01:03:49) Exaxxion22: I bet the PCE can absolutely not do Ranger-X
(01:03:51) Exaxxion22: no way in hell
(01:07:06) Mr Grumplesworth: the guys who did Ranger X could do ANY pce game
(01:08:37) Mr Grumplesworth: so we're supposed to believe that even though the VIRTUAL BOY had games that pushed it's power, the ol PCE was left out
(01:09:33) Keranu: "PCE can't do it" yet you list no specs.
(01:09:43) Mr Grumplesworth: yeah i am, the released library for both systems is my hard facts
(01:10:06) Keranu: What is it about Ranger X that you don't think the PCE can do?
(01:10:06) Mr Grumplesworth: its you revisionist history guys who aren't presenting facts
(01:10:08) Keranu: 3d effects?
(01:10:15) Mr Grumplesworth: everything together
(01:10:24) Mr Grumplesworth: sure the pce could do parts of the game ok, but not the whole package
(01:10:27) Keranu: Well we already now the PCE can do the color parts and sprite sizes.
(01:10:30) Keranu: And resolution.
(01:10:45) Keranu: And any "3d effects"
(01:10:51) Mr Grumplesworth: not as many sprites with as many parallax layers and 3D effects all at once
(01:15:49) Keranu: GUTS, you are basing that on your opinion now.
(01:16:03) Mr Grumplesworth: no i'm basing that on the fact that ranger x has too much for the pce to handle
About PCE programmers:
(01:04:44) Mr Grumplesworth: no, i don't care about what they theorize
(01:05:32) Mr Grumplesworth: a demo isn't shit
(01:10:06) Mr Grumplesworth: its you revisionist history guys who aren't presenting facts
(01:12:15) Mr Grumplesworth: i see a lot of pce "specs" being thrown around, but no proof
(01:13:51) Mr Grumplesworth: i've watched all those "famous" chris covell demos
(01:14:03) Mr Grumplesworth: and they're only impressive if you think that it's a turbo grafx doing it
(01:15:07) Mr Grumplesworth: no they won't, they'll give me a bunch of "blah blah MIPS blah blah" and then fail to provide any proof (referring to programmers)
About polygons:
(01:35:49) Mr Grumplesworth: genesis had games that did polygons
(01:35:54) Keranu: Nuh uh.
(01:35:59) Mr Grumplesworth: yes it did dufus
(01:36:03) Keranu: Tell me one.
(01:36:11) RuninRuder: starfox killed both sapphire and ranger x
(01:36:13) Mr Grumplesworth: lets see, LHX attack chopper, Hard drivin
(01:36:15) RuninRuder: youre all BUMS
(01:36:19) RuninRuder: BAHAHHA LHX!
(01:36:21) Keranu: Pre-rendered.
(01:36:24) Mr Grumplesworth: those are polygons
(01:39:36) Keranu: So just like Donkey Kong Country, LHX is pre-rendered.
(01:39:40) Mr Grumplesworth: HAHAHA
(01:40:04) Mr Grumplesworth: so you're telling me that lhx and dkc use the same tricks
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K my man, I hate to say it, but those are kinda private conversations, and it looks like some stuff taken out of context. This is only gonna start another flame war and you may not be in the right.
Having said that, we all know there are lots of programming tricks for all systems to accomplish all sorts of "impossible" hardware effects.
Bottom line graphics are just graphics, a games' enjoyability does not rely on this for most people. It's blatantly clear to me that the SNES and TG16 are more "colorful" than a Genesis. It's also clear to me that the SNES's cart music is superior to that of the Genesis or TG16 in terms of instrument samples. The PCE is superior in terms of quality and depth. Do I like games on the SNES, Genesis, and TG16? Hell yeah! :)
I even like games on the NES and Atari 2600, even though these system's graphics are unarguably inferior to the TG16. So what. Sometimes I get so sick and tired of this argument. People have their opinions - I happen to like the PCE the best. Someone else will like the SNES the best, and someone else will like the Genesis best. Everyone has their own reasons, so it's a very moot topic to be arguing. There is no right answer :)
Anyway, since the can of worms is opened, I will go on record and say I think the TG16 can handle any Genesis game you throw at it, except those with extensive paralax (again, there are tricks to get around this). I also think the TG16 can handle any SNES game you throw at it barring it doesn't use any special in-cart chip (FX) or dependent on excellent scaling and rotation (again, tricks around this).
Each system has it's strengths, and to me the strengths the TG16 exhibits outweigh those of the SNES or Genesis. I'm not talking graphics which may or may not be superior, I'm talking the games (and music in the CD games :) ) Whatever the PCE can do technically better than the other systems doesn't matter. I don't care. I like it better and that's that.
This doesn't mean I will only like the PCE and will only play PCE games. It just means I prefer it. GUTS or whoever else will prefer their system and believe it superior for whatever reason. There will never be a concrete answer to the graphics debate until the best programmers in the world have a go at both systems and see what they can produce. This will never happen :), therefore this argument will never end and will only result in heartache :)
OD
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K my man, I hate to say it, but those are kinda private conversations, and it looks like some stuff taken out of context. This is only gonna start another flame war and you may not be in the right.
These forums have gotten so blocked up with consoles wars lately that I figured I may as well make a thread dedicated to that instead of other threads making 180 turns. Though this thread is manly dedicated to a statement GUTS started, I think we could care less if another war popped up in this thread. So I just say release all the anger in here and lets get some more solid facts in here instead of the silly things GUTS was saying.
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I still think it's hilarious you believe that Donkey Kong Country and LHX have anything in common.
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I haven't played LHX, but if you say it uses polygons than it's probably just pre-rendered 3D. Of course the games more than likely had entirely different graphic artists and probably used different 3D programs, but both games used pre-rendered 3D graphics. What's so hard to believe that LHX was pre-rendered? :?
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Virtua Racing on Genesis used polygons.
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There are several Mega Drive games using polygons. It can natively handle polygons, unlike the SNES and PC Engine.
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I own Ranger X and simply don't understand the fascination with it. To me it doesn't look too much beyond a regular Genesis game in visuals. The gameplay is kind of fun if you have a 6-button controller but it is still a game that will spend far more time on my shelf than in my Genesis.
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There are several Mega Drive games using polygons. It can natively handle polygons, unlike the SNES and PC Engine.
I didn't realize than Falcon and Gunboat used FX chips!
Aren't polygons, or anything else graphical just complex calculations and don't specialty chips just specialize in certain kinds of calculations/effects so the rest doesn't have to?
In other words, can't any computer like device in theory calculate out almost any effect("natively")? Even if it in some cases it means 1 frame per minute (or whatever) like real CGI machines?
I mean, isn't the Genesis natively handling polygons through shearhorse power? And since the Genesis and PC Engine are more or less identical horsepower-wise, shouldn't the PC Engine be just as natively equipped to generate polygons as the Genesis?
The Genesis had background scrolling built in, I've never heard of polygon rendering built in. And if it can render polygons the old fashioned way, I don't see how built-in background scrolling would be a factor, so the PCE should be more or less equal with the Genesis, unless the MIPS numbers mean anything.
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When the SNES did "polygons", they were drawn in software...the FX chip is simply a math coprocessor that frees the CPU up from doing the intensive calculations required by 3D rendering. It's not too different in concept from modern 3D cards...remove the calculations from the CPU for better performance. To do the same thing on the Genesis without any additional hardware would be extremely taxing to achieve anything worthwhile. It would likely be possible with the Sega CD to accomplish this feat, since both processors can operate somewhat independantly...one could function as a math piggyback. Sonic CD was able to use the split CPU method for its bonus stages, although what was used there was a mere floormapper technique that can be accomplished with a simple fixed-point raycaster...quite fast to implement and not very CPU-hungry. Be all that as it may, the singular Genesis CPU is simply not fast enough to handle many "true" 3D calculations AND run game code at a decent framerate (30fps or better). Sure, you could display a few here and there but you're not doing an entire scene like that...but between lack of CPU power and technical details regarding graphics output (trying to do a flatmode APA scheme in planar memory is neither easy nor efficient, but this is absolutely required for a performant true 3D display), you're not doing true 3D on a Genesis or a PC Engine, nor on an unenhanced SNES.
Bottom line: sure, these machines can handle polygons, or even full 3D scenes, but don't expect playable games that are in full 3D because it's never going to happen...and never DID happen either.
To answer the question that this topic is based on: I haven't even played Ranger X, so I have no idea if the PCE could handle it or not. I'll give it a spin when I get the chance and see for myself whether it's possible or not. The fact that no game like it was coded for the PCE is not proof that it could not be done, it's just that it simply wasn't done.
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There's no way the PC Engine could handle Half-Life 2.
:wink:
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I think it could handle it, it would just need a bit of tweaking. Super Grafx on the other hand could handle it no problem, PIXEL PERFECT.
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Bleh, I have Half-Life 2 for my ATARI 2600!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh, what about that Commodore VIC-20 port of Quake? And don't forget about the Intellivision port of Black & White!
;)
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Well the Atari 2600 did get a new first person shooter a couple years ago called Skeleton, which could be argued is just as nice as Half Life 2.
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Well the Atari 2600 did get a new first person shooter a couple years ago called Skeleton, which could be argued is just as nice as Half Life 2.
My fav Intellivision game from back in the day is AD&D Treasure Of Tarmin, which is a 3D RPG with animated hallways like Phantasy Star.
So any FPS shooter could be dropped into the same engine.
But it'll still look like an Intv game (which is awesome).
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Screw Half Life 2. It is soooo obsolete. Half Life 6 is much better. I can't settle for anything less. That being said, I really like Hard Drivin' on the Genesis. It is a true 3D game.
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Anyone know what Faceball for PCE was using for the walls, or characters? Sprites/tiles, or any poly's?
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Anyone know what Faceball for PCE was using for the walls, or characters? Sprites/tiles, or any poly's?
I'n no techy, but I remember it looking like vector/wire frame bg's with sprite's that could be animated/pre-rendered even if they weren't.
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F-22 Raptor on Genesis used polygons and did a decent job of it.
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Hrm...just played Ranger-X for a few minutes, got into the second level before becoming bored. So far, there isn't squat here that hasn't already been done on the PCE and frankly, much of it better. The game controls like crap, honestly...also, the music is terrible, the sound effects are decent but a little underwhelming. The graphics are excellent but nothing out of the ordinary for the 16 bit era. I'm not seeing what the big deal is here...as far as I can tell, this is actually quite a boring game that accomplishes little that hasn't already been done before on the Genesis. The little dot-screen 3D stuff between level 1 and level 2 isn't all that interesting either, nor hard to make.
Very interesting parallax limitation on the first level...three layers, yet it only scrolls on one plane. Why? Because one of the planes is faked...there's only two hardware planes to play with, so the third one has to be faked, thus the scroll is limited in its movement. The second level uses a standard two-plane scroll which we all know the Genesis can handle without difficulty.
Could this be done on the PCE? Without question. It would be much easier on the SGX, but the PCE could more than handle this game. The parallax in places would have to be faked, of course.
So would I port it? No. This game is dull as hell, and I doubt I'll ever fire it up again, it's that boring.
F-22 Raptor on Genesis used polygons and did a decent job of it.
Are you sure you don't mean F-22 Interceptor? I can't find anything about F-22 Raptor having a Genesis port.
EDIT: Just checked out F-22 Interceptor. It definately uses polygons. The scene is extremely simple and the poly count is less than 50. There's absolutely no shading whatsoever, and the game only runs at about 10 fps max...barely playable. Lots of slowdown when there's too many polys. This is a perfect example of why the Genesis simply could not handle true 3D games...there simply wasn't enough CPU horsepower.
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Nah, the PCE couldn't do Ranger-X. Levels 2 and 5 are beyond the PCE's capabilities.
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Nah, the PCE couldn't do Ranger-X. Levels 2 and 5 are beyond the PCE's capabilities.
Level 2 wasn't all that special.
LHX Attack Chopper appears to use the same, or a similar, engine as F-22 Interceptor.
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Yes it is.
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If you say so.
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Nah, the PCE couldn't do Ranger-X. Levels 2 and 5 are beyond the PCE's capabilities.
Do you have anything to back this argument up, or are you content with the "It can't because I say so" position? :)
I gotta tell ya, nod's a pretty experienced programmer and if he says it can be done I sure believe him. This argument will pretty much stop here if you are unable to produce something to backup your position.
OD
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Well no, I really don't have anything to back it up. But read his explanation again, and think about this:
You know how people talk about the cool special effects in Super Castlevania 4? Well, those effects are in the second section of level 4. If someone just plays level 3 and the first section of level 4, and then says "I see no special effects here", then how useful is that?
All the experience in the world doesn't help if you haven't even seen the game.
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The parallax in level 2 of Ranger-X couldn't be 100% duplicated on the PCE because it only has a single plane. It would be braindead easy on the SGX but that's not the issue. Anyways, it could still be done on a lesser scale. It's one of those little details that would have to be altered if a port was made. Even as such, truly clever programmers could even work their way around that detail as well...a bit of BAT magic is all it would take. A lot of work for sure but could it be done? Probably, just maybe not 100% accurately.
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I've beaten Ranger X and loved it, but ersonally I think level 2 in Ranger X is one of the least impressive levels in the whole game. It doesn't use many colors at all, there is no "mega layered parallax scrolling", just two seperate plans, not much action going on, and that "3d effect" that GUTS was drooling over in the conversation was already done in games like Street Fighter II and Strip Fighter as far as I can tell.
Nod just to fill you in on the rest of the game, the levels don't get any more action packed as the first level really. Level three gets pretty loaded with action, but it slowsdown and flickers a lot so I don't think it would be any worse on PCE. Level 3 also does some nice simple palette swapping, but we already know any console can handle that.
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If you guys can't see how great Ranger X looks then I don't know what to say, maybe find another hobby? Ranger X uses every graphical trick in the book and does it all through amazing programming. If someone finds it boring is a matter of (bad) taste, but the graphics speak for themselves.
Also, I'd like to add Red Zone to the list of games that the PCE and SNES couldn't do.
Oh and Keranu, Notvied said that F-22 uses polygons so I win the argument about pre-rendered.
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oh my brother, TESTIFY
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GUTS, Ranger X might've done a bunch of tricks, but none of them were things that Turbo or SNES games didn't do. For fun, I'll name PCE games that did any trick Ranger X did (at least the ones I can think of in the top of my head):
Fake mutli-layers of parallax - Shape Shifter did this and did a damn fine job, I'd say did an even better job.
3D maps that looked like shit - Falcon had 3d objects that could be comparable and what do you know, they still looked like shit :D .
Palette Swapping - Legendary Axe II is one that comes to mind with the title screen if I recall.
The 3D backgrounds in the level 2 boss room - Street Fighter II' used either the same effect or an awfully similar effect for the floors in each level.
Cramming a bunch of sprites on screen - Terraforming is a good choice that comes to mind. I haven't played the game in awhile, but I recall it having just as many sprites on screen as Ranger X. Hell, I think it even suffered less slowdown and possibly flicker.
Graphical effects aren't the only things that make good graphics, the art style is possibly most important. There are some spots in Ranger X that pretty dirty color wise. In fact the other night I was toying around with a screenshot I took of the first level and see what simple color improvements I could do if it was on PCE. Here's a very small update I did:
(Genesis version left, revised PCE version right)
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5329/rangerxva4.png)
The main thing I did to the screenshot was add two extra colors to the sand hills, and replace that nasty darker color used in the sand with a more appropriate color. Give me some time and I could use and add better color to other things (like the sky) so it could really be cooking. So not only could the PCE do just as good of a job porting Ranger X to it's hardware, but it could give it some major color updating to really make the game look nice.
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Oh and Keranu, Notvied said that F-22 uses polygons so I win the argument about pre-rendered.
Oh and I said that I hadn't played the game and assumed it was probably just pre-rendered as most 3d console games were back then :P . Appaerently Nod also said it looked incredibly shitty and could also be done on PCE, so I think we're split.
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Wait, did you just compare an in-game graphical effect to something that one other game does on the title screen?
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Yes I did. Would you care for an ingame example of palette swapping? I'd be happy to since so many games back then did it. Ok... lets see here... ahh yes the first example that comes to mind is the second leve of the first Legendary Axe with the lava. The lava does some simple palette swapping so it looks like the lava is actually moving, when it's not really. I suppose a better ingame example of palette swapping that could be compared to the palette swapping in level 3 of Ranger X would be the parts in Lords of Thunder when you enter something during a level, like the cave in the water level and it shows the outside part doing a palette swap to darker colors so it looks like Landis is moving away from that area. Hell I was just playing Kabuki Den and it uses a palette swap for when you move closer to and away from a fire.
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Yes, F-22 Interceptor undoubtedly uses a polygonal 3D display and yes, it looks like incredible shit. And again, yes...the PCE could handle this just fine, as could the SNES (with the FX chip, that is...actually, it could do this game better than both with the FX chip but without it, the SNES couldn't handle it at all).
GUTS, I see few programming tricks in Ranger-X. The legacy that is Ranger-X is merely a bunch of hype and smokescreen. It's a pretty cut-and-dry platform-shooter, nothing spectacular, and nothing that hasn't been done scores of times before. For a Genesis game, it's got pretty good graphics. But graphics aren't everything...the game suffers in too many other areas to even make it a contender. If they had spent half the time on control and sound that they spent on visuals, then it would truly have been a masterpiece. The way it is right now...it simply makes good still shots.
What I think the true issue here is that a few fanboys can't come to grips with reality.
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That's a pretty authoritative tone for someone who didn't reach the end of level 2.
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I don't recall any levels past the second doing anything special that the first two levels didn't. I think the last stage with the final boss did some kind of wavey effect in the background, but that's still nothing new to games from the era. Dracula X, Dragon Saber, and Neutopia II are a few PCE games that come to mind that also did that effect :P .
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That's a pretty authoritative tone for someone who didn't reach the end of level 2.
Hit a nerve, did I? :P
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Actually, no. I write a lot more when I'm ANGERED. :twisted:
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SORRY, I don't like ROAST PORK! :evil:
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Tell ya what, fanboys...all of you...I'll play through the game entirely (if I can stay awake that long) but I'll use a Game Genie code so I can get through the whole game. I'll give a more detailed breakdown then, okay?
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Nod I didn't like the game when I first played it either and thought it had terrible controls, but I did enjoy it a ton when I got used to the controls (along with figuring some new ones out). You might like it more with six buttons, I dunno. But it doesn't matter, I'd like to hear your sypnosis anyways. I can tell you now though that the rest of the game doesn't do anything new.
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Yes I did. Would you care for an ingame example of palette swapping? I'd be happy to since so many games back then did it. Ok... lets see here... ahh yes the first example that comes to mind is the second leve of the first Legendary Axe with the lava. The lava does some simple palette swapping so it looks like the lava is actually moving, when it's not really. I suppose a better ingame example of palette swapping that could be compared to the palette swapping in level 3 of Ranger X would be the parts in Lords of Thunder when you enter something during a level, like the cave in the water level and it shows the outside part doing a palette swap to darker colors so it looks like Landis is moving away from that area. Hell I was just playing Kabuki Den and it uses a palette swap for when you move closer to and away from a fire.
All the Bosses in Ys I & II do a cool color cycle when they die.
There's a cool waterfall effect in Valis III.
The lava in the second cave of Ys IV.
Dracula X's Dracula Fight uses some color swapping as it transistions between backgrounds.
It's a pretty common effect in 16-bit games, I didn't realize that it was something special, other than the HAM technique I've read about Genesis games using.
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Nodtveidt, if you're sure you won't like the game, don't bother playing through it. If you're just looking for graphics to see if they could be done on PCE, then sure, I guess that'll work, but I don't think anyone here (except Keranu) honestly cares about that.
The thing about Ranger-X is this: I fell in love with it when I figured out how it really works, and I was forced to learn the mechanics because I kept dying over and over on level 2. Speeding through Ranger-X with a Game Genie is like guzzling wine; you're supposed to savor the flavor, not see how fast you can get drunk. For example, if you never experiment with the best way to use the cycle (as protection, as a stepping stool, as an automated cannon that you can send out into the middle of enemies while you hide behind rocks) then you're missing out on half the fun.
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I think most "classic" games don't look as good as they really are when you just give them a quick test. Especially when comparing ports.
Which is why I believe so many people love certain TG-16 games they played back in the day, but quickly dismiss other great Turbo/PCE titles only sampled through emulation.
Like how someone coming into the Ys series today for the first time will quickly decide that ramming into enemies isn't fun. Or that Bomberman's battle mode is too simple. Or most chip music in games they aren't familiar with sucks. Or judging graphics based on effects like parallax and resolution instead of the actual art.
Too many people want to judge games by how they compare to the best for a console, instead of just enjoying each title for what they are.
I still enjoy comparing/contrasting games on technical levels. But I don't think that anything but the best sucks. And I think that a majority of classic gaming's "greats" are unfairly kept on a pedestal while equal or better games are labeled average or unoriginal.
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The point is to see whether or not the PCE could handle this game, not whether the game is fun or not. The only real issue in handling this game is the graphics, because the PCE can do all the other parts just fine.
There are a few parts that the PCE might have problems with, mainly some of the boss backgrounds.
Boss 2 uses a mirrored skew effect, but also notice that the insides of the chambers are solid in colour. The effect is either produced by h-int magic or a floormapper. The PCE would be able to reproduce this in an acceptable manner but it would require some sprite trickery.
Boss 5 uses both background layers with the same effect. The reason this area is so fast is because the tiles are, again, mirrored. It's currently unknown to me whether this area uses scanline tricks or prerendered tiles...both would work here. The PCE could handle the background but would need sprites for the foreground (the pipe straps) and would need to be updated in realtime, which would likely be rather slow.
The final boss wouldn't really be an issue, we've seen this effect dozens of times before, both in published games and through demos like Chris Covell's.
I noticed, when playing through again, that the first area uses four layers, and at least one is faked with sprites. Also, one of the levels uses what appears to be two distant background layers...very interesting trick, but I also made note of the fact that the Y range was extremely limited here, and that the distant backgrounds did not Y-parallax correctly. Probably would have been too much work to accomplish. This dual background was clearly done with good old h-int trickery.
To sum it up: this game probably collects every known graphical trick the Genesis can handle and rolls them all into one game. While every one of these tricks has been seen countless times before, I've never seen a game which uses them all.
So, after seeing this all, does my answer change? Nope...not at all. The PCE could certainly handle this game for the most part...some of the parallax would work differently (most notably in the regular level 2) but I can honestly say that at least 95% of the game would port to the PCE.
But again...this game proved to be quite dull and redundant for me. It was easier once I had the controls down, but I'd rather play a tighter game with less visual eye-candy like Turrican.
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The lava does some simple palette swapping so it looks like the lava is actually moving, when it's not really.
That's called "color cycling". I hate that effect. It looks cheap and lazy. I've seen 8-bit games do it (by 8-bit I mean NES and SMS, not Turbo). It is a lame effect that looks very, very bad. I bet the Atari 2600 could do it. Real animation is better.
Yes, F-22 Interceptor undoubtedly uses a polygonal 3D display and yes, it looks like incredible shit. And again, yes...the PCE could handle this just fine, as could the SNES (with the FX chip...)
If the SNES needs additional hardware (ie: the FX chip) then it cannot handle it at all. Any system can handle anything with the help of additional hardware. Put a PS3 add-on on the Genesis and even the Xbox360 wouldn't be able to compete. This should be about the basic systems only.
For a Genesis game, [Ranger X has] pretty good graphics.
No, it really doesn't. It looks pretty drab, color-wise. I've seen many better looking Genesis games.
To sum it up: this game probably collects every known graphical trick the Genesis can handle and rolls them all into one game.
I don't think so. I've seen Genesis games that do far more impressive things through evil "tricks" than Ranger X. I suggest becoming more familiar with the Genesis library before saying things like that.
Nodtveidt -- The Anti-Fanboy.
Would an "anti-fanboy" say things like "for a Genesis game"?
This dual background was clearly done with good old h-int trickery.
h-int? You mean where the same background scrolls horizontally at several different speeds? I don't think this is trickery at all. Even the 8-bit systems could do this without any problems whatsoever. The Genesis can scroll each individual line at its own independent speed (ie: line scrolling as seen in Thunder Force 3's level 2). Line scrolling is also used for the floors in Street Fighter 2. It was also used in the 8-bit Sega Master System game Psycho Fox when you used a certain item. You see it in just about every racing game even on the 8-bit systems when the road scrolls back and forth. Line scrolling is oft used, no biggie. The Turbo can do line scrolling just fine. The Genesis can also scroll vertically at different speeds on the same layer, but not each individual pixel. Instead it is limited to 8 or 16 pixel chunks (I forget which). I imagine the Turbo has similar capabilities. Why develpors didn't use these capabilities as often as they did on the Genesis is another question entirely.
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That's called "color cycling". I hate that effect. It looks cheap and lazy. I've seen 8-bit games do it (by 8-bit I mean NES and SMS, not Turbo). It is a lame effect that looks very, very bad. I bet the Atari 2600 could do it. Real animation is better.
Blah, same thing as far as I know. I'm not disagreeing with you because I too think real animation is better. You still cannot deny the fact that a ton of 16-bit and earlier games did "color cycling" though.
No, it really doesn't. It looks pretty drab, color-wise. I've seen many better looking Genesis games.
I could agree with that, though GUTS and Emerald Rocker don't seem to take color into consideration for good graphics. Give me the Sonics over Ranger X any day (in terms of graphics and actual gameplay, hell music too).
I don't think so. I've seen Genesis games that do far more impressive things through evil "tricks" than Ranger X. I suggest becoming more familiar with the Genesis library before saying things like that.
Not trying to argue with you here, but I want to hear your suggestions of Genesis games that do more impressive tricks. Contra: Hard Corps is one that comes into my mind.
Nodtveidt -- The Anti-Fanboy.
Would an "anti-fanboy" say things like "for a Genesis game"?
Not that this applies to me either, but why wouldn't a anti-fanboy say things like "for a Genesis game"? He can say that "for a PCE game" or "for a SNES game" because he's an anti-fanboy :D .
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Who's denying that a lot of games use color cycling? It is quick and easy for any system to do.
I want to hear your suggestions of Genesis games that do more impressive tricks.
That is a valid suggestion, but I don't really feel much like thinking about it right now. What I want to know is what Ranger X does that is impressive besides a bit of fancy line scrolling (the "curved" scrolling, etc) and some vector drawings? It may have a bit of scaling in the intro as well if I recall. That's it. Otherwise the graphics are average.
why wouldn't a anti-fanboy say things like "for a Genesis game"?
Well for an "anti-fanboy" he seems a bit unobjective, especially since he italicized the "for a Genesis game" as if Genesis games usually don't have good graphics because it is teh suX0rz. He went on and on about how boring Ranger X was when that was never the issue. Also he seems fairly unfamiliar with the Genesis library. Also why would someone have to make a claim in their signature that they are anti-fanboy... as if otherwise nobody would know that? That's like having a sig that says "I'm not gay, really!"
Here is a game the TurboGrafx-16 could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Castle of Illusion starring Mickey Mouse.
Here is a game the Genesis could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Super Castlevania IV
The list(s) go on and on. It seems to me that many people on this board think that the Turbo can do basically anything the Genesis can do bar none. My question is this: Why didn't it and if it did why didn't it more often? The system was tops in Japan, no? Therefore it had plenty of developers with plenty of experience, many of them who did interesting tricks on the Genesis. The PC Engine et al kicks ass... but there are some things it does better than the Genesis (namely color and sometimes horizontal resolution) and things it does worse graphically (scrolling, sprites... though some might argue against this, highlight, shadow, interlace (vertical resolution), etc).
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95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
Also Keranu, our argument over pre-rendered vs polygons wasn't whether or not they looked like shit, it was over the fact that the Genesis had games with polygons. You stated that every game on Genesis that looked like it had polygons was pre-rendered Donkey Kong Country style, I said that Hard Drivin and LHX both had polygons. Again, I win; the Genesis had games with actual polygons, as confirmed by an programmer.
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Joe, I like you; you have a very interesting side in this debate :D . You're both defending the Genesis and defending the fact that Ranger X didn't do anything special. Fantastic :lol: .
Well for an "anti-fanboy" he seems a bit unobjective, especially since he italicized the "for a Genesis game" as if Genesis games usually don't have good graphics because it is teh suX0rz. He went on and on about how boring Ranger X was when that was never the issue. Also he seems fairly unfamiliar with the Genesis library. Also why would someone have to make a claim in their signature that they are anti-fanboy... as if otherwise nobody would know that? That's like having a sig that says "I'm not gay, really!"
Is it not possible he could say the same about the Turbo or SNES as well :) ? I'll let nod speak for himself on this one, it's stupid for me to go on about this, haha.
Here is a game the TurboGrafx-16 could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Castle of Illusion starring Mickey Mouse.
I'm interesting in knowing why. Granted I haven't really played through much of Castle since I was a kid, but this is a very interesting title to choose. I can't think of any "major" sacrifices the Turbo would have to do to port it, but the only minor thing I can think of that Castle does is a seperate plane layer, which the Turbo would have to fake. It might use that transparency trick Genesis has, but once again simple transparency tricks can be faked to look just as good. Other than that, I doubt the game uses more than 64 sprites on screen or anything like that.
Here is a game the Genesis could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Super Castlevania IV
Of course it would suffer some color limitations, but the main problem that comes to mind is that rotating room level, which might be possible but I wouldn't know. We actually discussed if this could be on the Turbo hardware back on the Magic Engine forums and there were some interestings posts.
The list(s) go on and on. It seems to me that many people on this board think that the Turbo can do basically anything the Genesis can do bar none.
I personally don't think that. I think the Genesis and SNES could handle any game on the Turbo just as well as the Turbo did. I do think that the Turbo might not be able to handle any "mode 7" heavy SNES game, unless maybe you include extra RAM options like Super and Arcade CDROM2 cards. However I suppose it depends on which game really.
My question is this: Why didn't it and if it did why didn't it more often? The system was tops in Japan, no? Therefore it had plenty of developers with plenty of experience, many of them who did interesting tricks on the Genesis.
This is a very good question and I have been wanting to know a solid answer myself. This might sound stupid, but do you think American popularity has anything to do with it? Black_Tiger also pointed out something interesting on that other flame thread that the Genesis was more in competition against SNES, so it tried recreating effects the SNES did, while the PCE kind of had a world of it's own like Gamecube does today.
I think the overall library of Turbo games look more polished than the Genesis library, but it seems developers were really utilizing Genesis and SNES hardware more than they were with the PC Engine.
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95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
Ok, then you must admit that probably around 90% of the Turbo library couldn't 100% be ported to the Genesis because they use more than 64 colors on screen or use more than 32 colors for the background or sprite layer.
Also Keranu, our argument over pre-rendered vs polygons wasn't whether or not they looked like shit, it was over the fact that the Genesis had games with polygons. You stated that every game on Genesis that looked like it had polygons was pre-rendered Donkey Kong Country style, I said that Hard Drivin and LHX both had polygons. Again, I win; the Genesis had games with actual polygons, as confirmed by an programmer.
Once again, I said I hadn't played those games so I assumed they were pre-rendered like most games were. You also said Silpheed used real polygons, that game looks pre-rendered to me and I've heard another programmer say that was pre-rendered. So the debate might still be open for discussion.
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Silpheed is pre-rendered. That's why it maintains such a high framerate and is able to look 3D even when it isn't. There's plenty of memory to take advantage of, and enough CPU horsepower to do the massive data transfer the game requires.
GUTS, the game very well can be done on the PCE, but some modifications would have to be done, as I specified. And like Keranu stated, there's a ton of games that were on the PCE that could never be ported to the Genesis at face value. By your logic, GUTS, Lords Of Thunder cannot be ported to the Genesis, and neither can Dungeon Explorer. But wait, weren't they ported? Of course, but with major changes in order to fit the limitations of the console. So you don't "win" at all. Get off your high horse before it gets sent to the mucilage factory. :P
Joe, I find your attempts to flame me humorous. But that aside...I agree that Castle Of Illusion couldn't be 100% faithfully duplicated on the PCE due to its two free-scrolling backgrounds. But other than that, it's a pretty basic platformer that any old-school console could handle without difficulty. However, my knowledge of the Genesis library is very good, maybe not as good as some but good nonetheless.
I didn't say that Ranger-X did anything special, in fact I stated just the opposite. I just stated that a lot of the good tricks we've seen on Genesis hardware before were put into a single game.
As for this comment of yours...
"Well for an "anti-fanboy" he seems a bit unobjective, especially since he italicized the "for a Genesis game" as if Genesis games usually don't have good graphics because it is teh suX0rz."
...let's get a little real here, shall we? Many Genesis games, due to hardware limitations, had to go dither-crazy, and this looks like crap on a clear screen (looks fine on a television though). A lot of games use colour-pooling (Sonic 2 for example) which looks like complete crap and yes, the colour output of the Genesis simply isn't as powerful as the PCE so this makes it look even worse. But putting words into my mouth is the quickest way to piss me off. I never stated for a moment that the Genesis was "teh suX0rz". I love the Genesis' library of games and have quite a few favourites (including one you mentioned...Castle Of Illusion). But I cannot stand fanboys at all, or people who make false claims about complete bullshit. So what if the Genesis was technically inferior in many ways? It doesn't mean it didn't produce some great games. They did the best they could with such limited technology. The same applies for all those old consoles. So getting all fanboyish over your favourite console is pretty retarded, and making false claims about a console that isn't your favourite is even more retarded.
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OK, so all this silliness motivated me to go fetch a Ranger X ROM and see what was so special.
Since Guts here is the game's biggest proponent, and he's proven himself to be aesthetically retarded on a several occasions, I expected to find a pretty lame title. I actually like what I played of the game quite a bit though. Its a bit chaotic so its good that you have a long life bar because not getting hit is pretty hard. Your mech is big, the screen scrolls kind of quickly, and that's a recipe for just running into shit constantly. For me anyway. I’ve been thinking about starting a Genesis/MD collection, and if that ever happens (first I need a good deal on a Mk 1 Genesis/Sega CD combo) I’ll be sure to get this game.
As for the graphics and its adaptability to PCE, here's how I see it. I think, maybe, that something more than workable could be done with the PCE and this game. Closer than the Sega port of LoT. Maybe. See, its hard to tell because while nothing in it strikes me as PCE-impossible, yet the game taken as a whole seems to be quite a bit more complex that PCE usually (ever?) are in reality.
What seems to have happened with the PCE is that once the CDROM (Super CDROM really) got a foothold, and it was established that you could sell games with Hal Mikimoto, and Megumi Hayashibara that's what the emphasis became. The SNES couldn't do that sort of thing, and nobody gave a shit about Mega CD, so that's what things started to focus on. Therefore, we were floored with titles like Sapphire, and Kaze Kiri when they did come out because that sort of thing was so rare, even when to be honest there could have been a lot more games like those if everyone wasn't so obsessed with cinemas.
I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the PCE could do Ranger X, but we'll never know because right about the time the Duo was released people, for the most part, stopped caring about making games like that for the PCE. The Megadrive got Ranger X, the PC Engine got...Graduation 2. Oh joy. In the end though, Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie, graphics-wise, obliterates any shooter on all three machines.
So, theories aside, we're back to this again:
Good points:
MD: Speed!
SNES: Color, transparency, scaling.
PCE: In-bewteen color, a CDROM that people actually developed for, huge RAM (if using AC)
Bad points:
MD: Everything is brown, no FX to speak of compared with SNES
SNES: Cannot push sprites well at all, slows down, sound DSP is annoying if not used well. Same with the color. Castlevania IV is just...fruity looking.
PCE: Also not much in the way of FX, CDROM games were hampered by RAM limitations (until AC).
But now a third category!
Individual Charms:
MD: Old fashioned code based special FX impossible without the 68000. I suppose Ranger X is an example, but I think a batter example of this sort of thing is The Adventures of Batman and Robin. Not a great game, but a fancy one for sure. Sega and Treasure!
SNES: The ability to base an entire game around a single special effect. Super Mario Kart is impossible on the other two systems (aside from Mega CD). Square and Nintendo!
PCE: Tons of cool memory wasters, mainly in the form of "cinema". Streaming PCM sound that allows for more audio in a game than the running time of a CD. Hudson, and Falcom!
So, basically its all good. Quit being bitches.
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The Genesis can also scroll vertically at different speeds on the same layer, but not each individual pixel.
Joe, I think the vertical scrolling your talking about would be the canyon level of Musha? I'm pretty sure the veritcal and horizontal scroll registers of the VDP are locked per scanline. I've read through Charles MacDonalds hardware document on the Genesis VDP (video display processor). That trick uses tile swapping - hence the 8x8 limitation. The Gen also has tile flipping for the BG(used in the canyon level) so the PCE would require twice as much tile memory for the same effect.
95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
Baka!
I'll give my input about the game. My friend ordered the import when it can out in japan. Back then I thought the game was pretty good. I borrowed it from him and played until the third level. The effects up to that point weren't jaw dropping, but they were nice. I thought the graphics(up to level 3) were good relative to the Genesis game library/standards. But the game didn't hold my interest and I gave it back. I recently watched him beat the game a few months ago - the game hind of goes downhill so I didn't missed much. I do like the tunnel effect, but it is not the same effect from Super Castlevania 4 as I think someone mentioned earlier.
MD: Old fashioned code based special FX impossible without the 68000. I suppose Ranger X is an example, but I think a batter example of this sort of thing is The Adventures of Batman and Robin. Not a great game, but a fancy one for sure. Sega and Treasure!
SNES: The ability to base an entire game around a single special effect. Super Mario Kart is impossible on the other two systems (aside from Mega CD). Square and Nintendo!
PCE: Tons of cool memory wasters, mainly in the form of "cinema". Streaming PCM sound that allows for more audio in a game than the running time of a CD. Hudson, and Falcom!
The CPU being a 68000 had nothing to do with the effects in Ranger X or other titles. 98% of all effect on the Gen are not CPU intensive/generated/processed - the effects came from the VDP.
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GUTS, Ranger X might've done a bunch of tricks, but none of them were things that Turbo or SNES games didn't do. For fun, I'll name PCE games that did any trick Ranger X did (at least the ones I can think of in the top of my head):
Fake mutli-layers of parallax - Shape Shifter did this and did a damn fine job, I'd say did an even better job.
3D maps that looked like shit - Falcon had 3d objects that could be comparable and what do you know, they still looked like shit :D .
Palette Swapping - Legendary Axe II is one that comes to mind with the title screen if I recall.
The 3D backgrounds in the level 2 boss room - Street Fighter II' used either the same effect or an awfully similar effect for the floors in each level.
Cramming a bunch of sprites on screen - Terraforming is a good choice that comes to mind. I haven't played the game in awhile, but I recall it having just as many sprites on screen as Ranger X. Hell, I think it even suffered less slowdown and possibly flicker.
Okay, those games are using ONE techique EACH. This game uses them all. SIMULTANEOUSLY. Could the PCE handle them all at once without slowdown? I have no idea.
Also: when you guys are giving an example an "impressive" SNES game, it seems that you're always mentioning Castlevania 4. One of the ugliest SNES games (in my opinion), it is also just a pretty lame launch title that looks like a PCE game. There are far more graphically and technically advanced SNES games out there.
Also (again) why do people always think that "bright colors" automatically translate to "good graphics"? Personally, I think bright colors are terrible, and that games with very dark colors look far, far better than a game using bright colors.
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Okay, those games are using ONE techique EACH. This game uses them all. SIMULTANEOUSLY.
It doesn't use them all simultaneously. It just uses them all during the course of the game.
Could the PCE handle them all at once without slowdown? I have no idea.
Since they're not all being used at once, it's impossible to tell without actually trying it.
Also: when you guys are giving an example an "impressive" SNES game, it seems that you're always mentioning Castlevania 4. One of the ugliest SNES games (in my opinion), it is also just a pretty lame launch title that looks like a PCE game. There are far more graphically and technically advanced SNES games out there.
SC4 just used a few hardware features that some consider impressive, like the big rotating rooms. Nothing special really. There are definately FAR more impressive games on the SNES.
Also (again) why do people always think that "bright colors" automatically translate to "good graphics"? Personally, I think bright colors are terrible, and that games with very dark colors look far, far better than a game using bright colors.
It's not about bright colours, it's about rich colours. Colours on the Genesis tend to look a bit washed out, and on the PCE the same colours look more vibrant. It has to do with the differences in the colour encoders used in the two machines. Furthermore, it's all opinion when it comes to bright colours anyways...some like them, some do not. I like both. :D
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Wow, this thread reminds me of the Commodore 64 vs ZX Spectrum pissing contests when I was at school.
Who cares if machine X can't replicate machine Y 100% perfectly? Arguing about it is as pointless as the whole 'Can Mario beat Sonic in a fight' kind of thing.
Each machine has strengths and weaknesses, but it's the ability of the programmers that it mostly comes down to. After all the Spectrum, a low powered 8-bit computer could do filled polygons ('Solid 3D' in those days) and even full screen parallax scrolling when pushed. Does it matter?
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Metamor Jupiter does a different version of the SCV4 "rotating room" effect, where you're flying down the barrel of a massive cannon. It actually ends up looking a bit better. Unfortunately, Metamor Jupiter also has a scaling/rotating first boss that slows the system down to a 3-frames-per-second crawl. It's interesting that the game handles the ridiculously flashy effect really well, but can't handle a boss scaling and rotating onto the screen.
Anyways, since it looks like this thread is still going on, I figure I ought to highlight a few more passages from the private AIM conversation that started it all. Just to put things in perspective.
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(01:08:06) Keranu: But saying it can't be done on PCE is silly;.
(01:08:16) Emerald Rocker: it can't be done on PCE.
(2)
(01:15:19) Keranu: But the MIPS is a hard fact.
(01:15:28) Keranu: You can't ignore specs.
(01:15:32) Emerald Rocker: yes you can
(3)
(01:15:38) GUTS: its also a hard fact that that must not matter much since ranger X smashes the pce library
(01:15:49) Keranu: GUTS, you are basing that on your opinion now.
(01:16:03) GUTS: no i'm basing that on the fact that ranger x has too much for the pce to handle
(01:16:04) Keranu: You think Ranger X looks nice, that's YOUR opinion, not fact.
(01:16:12) GUTS: hell it couldn't even handle a decent port of Altered Beast
(01:16:19) Keranu: Ok, now ask a programmer to make a port of it for you.
(01:16:37) Emerald Rocker: the programmers already had their chance at Altered Beast and failed
(4)
(01:17:37) Emerald Rocker: where's the Contra Hard Corps of the PCE
(01:17:41) GUTS: yeah hard corps would not be possible on the pce
(01:17:48) Keranu: This is ridiculous.
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(01:23:10) RuninRuder: the turbo might have been "weaker" in effects but it used its strengths optimally, the colorful crisp graphics in rondo and gate for instance, plus brilliant cinemas
(01:23:37) RuninRuder: the snes was "powerful" but used its strengths for absolute shit and crippled its games with flicker and slowdown
(01:23:39) Keranu: Plus processor speed.
(01:24:06) RuninRuder: genesis had some nice effects at times, used better than snes effects, but looked horrible due to limited colors very often
(01:24:12) GUTS: well except that Chrono Trigger is beyond what the turbo could o
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(01:24:45) Keranu: In fact, you want to see what Metal Slug would look like on Turbo?
(01:24:47) GUTS: they'd have to change all the huge background graphcis to tiles
(01:24:51) Emerald Rocker: weren't the sprites bigger than the Turbo could do?
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(01:27:46) GUTS: lets compare Riot zone to Streets of Rage III
(01:27:59) GUTS: no contest, and that's the best the duo could do
According to the private AIM chat that started this, the PCE cannot handle:
Chrono Trigger, Contra Hard Corps, Dragon's Fury, F-22, Golden Axe, LHX, Metal Slug, Ranger-X, Streets of Rage 3, or... Altered Beast.
Personally, I can't wait to read Dragon's Fury: The Official Debate Thread. =D
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This arguement is funny. More to the fact that the arguements are based on: if it could have be done then it would have been done (on the PCE).
(01:16:12) GUTS: hell it couldn't even handle a decent port of Altered Beast
Baka! :wink:
Metamor Jupiter does a different version of the SCV4 "rotating room" effect, where you're flying down the barrel of a massive cannon.
Yeah it's similar, except the SNES independently scales each scanline unlike the MJ effect.
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Not trying to argue with you here, but I want to hear your suggestions of Genesis games that do more impressive tricks. Contra: Hard Corps is one that comes into my mind.
Isn't The Adv. Of Batman & Robin supposed to be harsh killer?
It seems to me that many people on this board think that the Turbo can do basically anything the Genesis can do bar none. My question is this: Why didn't it and if it did why didn't it more often?
I've gone into detail about some of the reasons why before, but to sum it up. The answer is that it didn't need to... and why would it(they)?
Why didn't more Genesis & SNES games try to reproduce massive animated CD-style cinemas with voice and digitize in entire soundtracks in Neo Geo sized carts?
Why does Square spend 100 million dollars to produce and market an RPG that is simpler gameplay-wise than an NES game?
The PC Engine succeeded so well and for so long because of the types of games it had, not the kind it didn't. Once the CD-ROM format took off early on, why would a developer spend more of its time programming in visual tricks for a consumer who's more looking forward to another huge game with beautiful cinemas and yet another killer CD soundtrack? Also, PCE fans obviously settled for games that were just plain fun as well, since there are quite a few hits that aren't aesthetically cutting edge.
Where as the Genesis was battling it out against the SNES, both systems trying to prove how "powerful" they were and trying to cram as much as they could visually into a small cart. So we got more detailed, but repetative graphics with lots of effects inplace of animation(mainly the SNES) to save on space.
The reason why more developers didn't try to go crazy with effects in PC Engine games is the same reason the DS is the most succesful gaming system ever and the PSP is on it's deathbed. As a PCE publisher, you didn't make the big bucks putting out tech demos as games.
And it's all about money in the end. Which is why we saw more tech demo games on Genesis & SNES, because publishers were actually able to make money that way. DKC was marketed for all it's dohickery and Sonic 2 was sold on blast-processing. Where as Tengai Makyou II was marketed for it's gameplay length, voice work, story, music, character design, etc... -as the type of game only the PC Engine could do.
And again, on any console, every time an effect can't technically be done by the same means, it can either be reproduced in a different way(in which case, why does it matter how it was done?) or a different or better, possibly system-specific effect or other upgrade can be used.
Personally, I'd rather play this game-
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/bonkt1.gif)
Than this game-
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/bonkt2.gif)
It's like the Saturn, it may have been capable of doing pretty much anything, but it was hard to program for. So not everyone went the extra mile that some developers did (those who did often called those who didn't "lazy" in interviews). But just because it didn't have more games at the time doing certain things, it doesn't mean that it can't do most of what the N64 and PSX can and did.
But I usually hear people (even PSX & N64 fanboys) say that the Saturn never saw it's full potential. But when it comes to the PC Engine, we get so many people just saying, "the PC Engine can't do it".
Someone mentioned how the Chris Covell demos are nothing special. Well, what makes them so special is that this is just some guy making these for fun, without a development team or dev kit. And look at what he's already come up with. And so often anti-PCE'ers like to say that the PCE has no chance of comparing to the big 2, because is straight up can't do "blankety blank" at all. Well look at all the "blankety blank" some amateur pulled out of the PC Engine's ass.
Here is a game the TurboGrafx-16 could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Castle of Illusion starring Mickey Mouse.
What does this game do that'd require a sacrifice? Someone mentioned a multi-directional background or something. Magical Chase has one, with a couple of uniquely shaped layers floating around inbetween and like 4 times the sprites. Other than doubling the color, I don't know what the difference would be.
Here is a game the Genesis could not do 100% (graphically) without major sacrifices:
Super Castlevania IV
I've never actually played this game, but from what I've heard and seen in screenshots is that there's a level or levels that rotate 360. Didn't Sonic 1 do this in it's bonus rounds, except more detailed and colorful with animated walls?
95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
With everything that the PC Engine could add, especially on CD, especially with the Arcade Card, wouldn't a PCE port really wind up around 120+%?
Who cares if machine X can't replicate machine Y 100% perfectly? Arguing about it is as pointless as the whole 'Can Mario beat Sonic in a fight' kind of thing.
Exactly! Everyone knows that Bonk would wipe the floor with both of them!
Anyways, since it looks like this thread is still going on, I figure I ought to highlight a few more passages from the private AIM conversation that started it all. Just to put things in perspective...........
Too... much.. ripe material... to comment on...
__________________
"I'm not gay, really!"
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In case you guys hadn't picked up on it by now, we were f*cking with Keranu in chat. Personally I think the PCE could do a decent job of Ranger X, hell honestly I think Lords of Thunder actually looks better. I doubt there's any games on either system that couldn't be done on the other one with some minor sacrifices. What I find amazing about Ranger X is what nod mentioned, that it uses basically every graphical trick in the book and puts it all in one awesome mech-blasting package.
And Keranu, Silpheed does use polygons for the player ship, enemies, and most bosses. That's why they look like complete shit compared to the pre-rendered backgrounds.
The real question here is whether or not the shit, handicapped SNES could do Ranger X or Lords of Thunder, and resounding answer is NO. That would be like giving speed to a guy in a wheelchair. So what have we learned by this thread? The SNES sucks shit while the PCE and Genesis rock it's face off.
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Okay, I kinda predicted all this in my second post.. but anyway, since Emerald Rocker and GUTS are basing their argument soley on opionion, I thought I'd respond to this post which I thought was kind of funny.
Anyways, since it looks like this thread is still going on, I figure I ought to highlight a few more passages from the private AIM conversation that started it all. Just to put things in perspective.
(1)
(01:08:06) Keranu: But saying it can't be done on PCE is silly;.
(01:08:16) Emerald Rocker: it can't be done on PCE.
Because..... ?
(2)
(01:15:19) Keranu: But the MIPS is a hard fact.
(01:15:28) Keranu: You can't ignore specs.
(01:15:32) Emerald Rocker: yes you can
You can? Why? This is the only piece concrete evidence you would posibly have to support your position, and yet it is to be ignored :)
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(01:15:38) GUTS: its also a hard fact that that must not matter much since ranger X smashes the pce library
(01:15:49) Keranu: GUTS, you are basing that on your opinion now.
(01:16:03) GUTS: no i'm basing that on the fact that ranger x has too much for the pce to handle
(01:16:04) Keranu: You think Ranger X looks nice, that's YOUR opinion, not fact.
(01:16:12) GUTS: hell it couldn't even handle a decent port of Altered Beast
(01:16:19) Keranu: Ok, now ask a programmer to make a port of it for you.
(01:16:37) Emerald Rocker: the programmers already had their chance at Altered Beast and failed
Let's have a look at SUPERIOR Sega ports ont he PCE shall we, such as After Burner II, Space Harrier, etc. Altered Beast was an abomination, but that just means the programmers screwed up, not that the PCE couldn't do it. You say it "couldn't handle a decent port of Altered Beast", well there has never been a decent port of the game so I'm curious how you know that. Also, I am a little concerned that you would consider PCE's Altered Beast a "decent port". I was going to give Ranger-X a spin and see what the hype is about, but am starting to re-think that if PCE's Altered Beast is "Decent" to you :)
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(01:17:37) Emerald Rocker: where's the Contra Hard Corps of the PCE
(01:17:41) GUTS: yeah hard corps would not be possible on the pce
(01:17:48) Keranu: This is ridiculous.
Not sure if you are trying to help Keranu win his argument with this post or what, but to me it looks like you are content on the "It can't handle game X because I say so" position. Fine, I'll agree with Keranu that the Genesis can't handle 90% of PCE games. I don't have anything to back this up (other than colour and sprite size differences), but then again this argument isn't based on facts - only opinion.
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(01:23:10) RuninRuder: the turbo might have been "weaker" in effects but it used its strengths optimally, the colorful crisp graphics in rondo and gate for instance, plus brilliant cinemas
(01:23:37) RuninRuder: the snes was "powerful" but used its strengths for absolute shit and crippled its games with flicker and slowdown
(01:23:39) Keranu: Plus processor speed.
(01:24:06) RuninRuder: genesis had some nice effects at times, used better than snes effects, but looked horrible due to limited colors very often
(01:24:12) GUTS: well except that Chrono Trigger is beyond what the turbo could o
It can't do Chrono Trigger because....? We all know Square spent as much time on the PCE port of Chrono as they did for the SNES version, so it's apparent it couldn't be done. Wait a minute, I just made that up!
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(01:24:45) Keranu: In fact, you want to see what Metal Slug would look like on Turbo?
(01:24:47) GUTS: they'd have to change all the huge background graphcis to tiles
(01:24:51) Emerald Rocker: weren't the sprites bigger than the Turbo could do?
From what I remember, I seriously doubt it. I've seen many Turbo games with bigger sprites. Perhaps this was programming trickery, not sure.
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(01:27:46) GUTS: lets compare Riot zone to Streets of Rage III
(01:27:59) GUTS: no contest, and that's the best the duo could do
Wow, even us PCE experts here didn't know that Riot Zone was the pinacle of the PCE's capabilities. Good to know. For a man with nothing to support his argument, you sure know alot about the PCE's capabilities :)
According to the private AIM chat that started this, the PCE cannot handle:
Chrono Trigger, Contra Hard Corps, Dragon's Fury, F-22, Golden Axe, LHX, Metal Slug, Ranger-X, Streets of Rage 3, or... Altered Beast.
According to reality (not the AIM chat), these should all be possible. I can't say I liked any of those games listed too terribly much, so I'm not upset that decent ports never made it over. I'll take my existing PCE library any day over the 10 games the PCE simply "could not ever do".
OD
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And Keranu, Silpheed does use polygons for the player ship, enemies, and most bosses. That's why they look like complete shit compared to the pre-rendered backgrounds.
Does this mean that Sapphire is also using real polygons? At least on the non-boss enemies?
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"I'm not gay, really!"
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In case you guys hadn't picked up on it by now, we were f*cking with Keranu in chat. Personally I think the PCE could do a decent job of Ranger X, hell honestly I think Lords of Thunder actually looks better. I doubt there's any games on either system that couldn't be done on the other one with some minor sacrifices. What I find amazing about Ranger X is what nod mentioned, that it uses basically every graphical trick in the book and puts it all in one awesome mech-blasting package.
Okay this is starting to make sense, I thought you and Emerold Rocker were either in denial (been caught there before), or just insane :)
The real question here is whether or not the shit, handicapped SNES could do Ranger X or Lords of Thunder, and resounding answer is NO. That would be like giving speed to a guy in a wheelchair. So what have we learned by this thread? The SNES sucks shit while the PCE and Genesis rock it's face off.
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Well, you may be starting another argument here :) As a fan of all three systems, owning at least one of each for several years (hell I Even traded my TG16 for a SNES when it first game out), I have to say statements like this is unecessary. I personally like the SNES better than Genesis, but I still really enjoy the Genesis :). I think all systems could do each other's games, but there would be pro's and con's to each.
I love the Genesis for it's style, and excellent games. A lot of games use a lot of great animation too (Cyborg Justice).
I love the SNES for it's epic games - RPGs mainly - primarily because of it's good music chip and cool FC it can do, transparencies, whatever.
I love the PCE just because I like it better overall. I like the games better, I think some of the games have superior graphics to the Genesis or SNES, some have superior music, etc. Overall I like it better. Doesn't mean I hate any one system. I don't think the SNES is shit, I think it's excellent. Nintendo knows (and knew) what they were doing. Same with Sega. Same with Hudson/NEC.
OD
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Also (again) why do people always think that "bright colors" automatically translate to "good graphics"? Personally, I think bright colors are terrible, and that games with very dark colors look far, far better than a game using bright colors.
Well, personally I hate dark games. I like bright autumn leaves more than the leaves you find frozen to the concrete in your driveway in January. Really though that's just a difference in individual taste. MD games are mostly all muddy and brown because of its hardware. The SNES could do muddle and brown, but most games were bright probably because these machines were new at the time and programers were probably excited to be able to use these new colors coming from the FC, or the C64, or whatever.
The PCE has quite a few colorful games, and quite a few drab ones.
I'm not sure why I just typed that last sentence...
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I really liked Black_Tiger's post that discusses why PCE didn't get all the fancy special effect support from developers like the other consoles did. I think Black_Tiger hit the nail with the hammer, it seems most logical to me. Oh and the Bonk 3 screenshots were fantastic :D !
Well, personally I hate dark games. I like bright autumn leaves more than the leaves you find frozen to the concrete in your driveway in January.
This line rules :D .
By the way GUTS, I thought you didn't believe what programmers say? I thought you said they were just theorists with no hard facts? Has GUTS gained a soft spot in his heart for the beloved programmers :) ?
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And Keranu, Silpheed does use polygons for the player ship, enemies, and most bosses. That's why they look like complete shit compared to the pre-rendered backgrounds.
Does this mean that Sapphire is also using real polygons? At least on the non-boss enemies?
I doubt it. You mean like the really simple blue ones that look like they were stolen from Viewpoint? Those are almost definitely pre-rendered...just as they were in Viewpoint. Without some real technical skills it would be impossible to prove either way, but I think its safe to say they aren't real-time since there really wouldn't be any point in it.
As much as people hoot and toot about Sapphire, from what I can see its your basic shooter with enemies that have a crapload of animation, and sound FX that are really bad. I quite like the game, especially 2 player, but I still think GoT is the best PCE shooter.
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Actually, GUTS, I think the SNES graphics processor could handle many of the effects in Ranger-X easier than the Genesis did...and it would have to, because its crap processor would otherwise be too bogged down. As far as LoT goes...sure, it could be ported to the SNES but the music would suffer greatly for it.
Gotta hand it to you though...that escape tactic to save face was classic. Haven't seen that in years, usually people just go down fighting. :P :lol:
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95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
With everything that the PC Engine could add, especially on CD, especially with the Arcade Card, wouldn't a PCE port really wind up around 120+%?
Maybe. But that's not the console we're talking about - that's a PC Engine CD. With an add-on.
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Also (again) why do people always think that "bright colors" automatically translate to "good graphics"? Personally, I think bright colors are terrible, and that games with very dark colors look far, far better than a game using bright colors.
There's a difference bewteen Bright vs Vibrant colors as well as Dark vs Dull.
But when most people talk about colorful games, I think they usually mean higher color games, which can be very dark or bright and are usually more detailed.
Regardless of palletes and theoretically maximum colors per screen limits, the real determining factor to how well color gets used in games, is all the little bottlenecks along the way.
The PC Engine seems to be able to produce some very nice vibrant graphics, even when a high number of colors technically isn't being used.
SNES games sometimes look kinda drab, even when they're using a high number of colors.
Genesis games sometimes recycle colors, to keep detail in sections, but wind up with clashing colors. But it seems to also have some weird bottle necks that sometimes keep it from getting near it's onscreen color limit.
One day I was making these two screens into gif's for a project and was surprised when I noticed how much color was changed in the Genesis version. The PCE version only uses 68 colors. The Genesis version got cut down to 41, but way more shades were recycled than I would've thought necessary, even with 41 colors.
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/bomberman94.gif)
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/megabomberman.gif)
Anyone know why'd they do this?
95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
With everything that the PC Engine could add, especially on CD, especially with the Arcade Card, wouldn't a PCE port really wind up around 120+%?
Maybe. But that's not the console we're talking about - that's a PC Engine CD. With an add-on.
So are we now limiting all Genesis and SNES theoretical ports to 8 meg carts?
And does the 32X platform not exist?
The "add-on" is the real system as we all know and love it. It didn't tank like the Sega & Mega-CD and it didn't add any processing power or specialty effects/chips either.
The CD format lasted longer than the PC Engine went without it beforehand and was the main format that all PCE software was produced for.
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"I'm not gay, really!"
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Wow so much to respond to! I'll do this by memory since going back and quoting everything will take forever.
1 - Castle of Illusion - Yes, the two BG layers are what I am talking about. One of them would have to be sacrificed and that is quite a large graphical sacrifice in my opinion. We all agree the Turbo could fake this with sprites to some degree in a few certain areas, but not 100%. Maybe a better example would be Thunder Force IV since it does put a bunch o' sprites on the screen.
2 - nodvietd (?) - Fanboy argument accepted. I never meant to imply that you personally said "genesis is teh sux", though.
3 - Vertical scrolling - I have no idea how it works and yes MUSHA uses it to a limited degree. I have seen games with horizontal line scrolling combined with the 8 pixel vertical scrolling to do a limited rotation effect, so I don't know about scrolling being locked to a horizontal line (but then again I am not an authority on how that was achieved). You can see this in quite a few later Genesis games like Gunstar Heroes, Adventures of Batman and Robin, Shinobi III (barely). Hell even Gynough/Wings of Wor used this for the BG(s) in a level and that was a fairly early game, come to remember.
4 - Genesis multi-plane scrolling - This isn't in response to anything, but I'm pretty sure the Genesis can, for example, have layer 1 as the backmost BG layer, then layer 2 overlapping in front of it, and then layer 1 overlapping in front of layer 2, and then layer 2 overlapping in front of layer 1 again, etc etc etc just as long as layer 1 never overlaps itself horizontally and the same with layer 2. I think the 32X worked in a similar way. It imported the graphics from the Genesis and layed 32X graphics over that and then output. However I have seen 32X graphics be between Genesis layers which is pretty amazing considering the layering must be done in analog.
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95% isn't the whole game, so I win. Ranger X officially cannot be done on the PC Engine, as confirmed by a programmer.
With everything that the PC Engine could add, especially on CD, especially with the Arcade Card, wouldn't a PCE port really wind up around 120+%?
Maybe. But that's not the console we're talking about - that's a PC Engine CD. With an add-on.
Considering that aside from CD music, the only thing the CD unit adds is the extra memory in the System cards, then given more storage a HU can do the same as a CD game. Then, you add enough storage to a Megadrive cart and it can do even better looking games. Then you add more to a HuCard and it can do amazing games. Then you add more to...
See where this is going?
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What I mean is that you're comparing small Mega Drive carts to CD-ROM based games.
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What I mean is that you're comparing small Mega Drive carts to CD-ROM based games.
Yeah, what I mean the whole system v system argument is pretty pointless.
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Pointless but fun.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4558/abcomparisonwt9.gif)
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3 - Vertical scrolling - I have no idea how it works and yes MUSHA uses it to a limited degree. I have seen games with horizontal line scrolling combined with the 8 pixel vertical scrolling to do a limited rotation effect, so I don't know about scrolling being locked to a horizontal line (but then again I am not an authority on how that was achieved). You can see this in quite a few later Genesis games like Gunstar Heroes, Adventures of Batman and Robin, Shinobi III (barely). Hell even Gynough/Wings of Wor used this for the BG(s) in a level and that was a fairly early game, come to remember.
What I mean is that on a H-sync interrupt, once you write a new value to the vertical or horizontal register of the VDP, that value takes place on the next scanline. So multiple writes would be useless as the last write would be the one taking effect for the next line. Charles MacDonald would know better than I on this one.
For the rotating effects - I believe Gunstar Heroes (rotating plane) and Contra (big rotating dancing mini Boss) use the equivalent effects as Cotton(PCE) first level boss. It's a tile swapping/building/shifting method, but the effect limits all tiles to 16colors for that layer. The larger the image and more complex effect, the more bandwidth to the VDP is required. The 68000 DMA to the VDP VRAM port is pretty fast(needed for the effect) - faster than the SNES DMA.
4 - Genesis multi-plane scrolling - This isn't in response to anything, but I'm pretty sure the Genesis can, for example, have layer 1 as the backmost BG layer, then layer 2 overlapping in front of it, and then layer 1 overlapping in front of layer 2, and then layer 2 overlapping in front of layer 1 again, etc etc etc just as long as layer 1 never overlaps itself horizontally and the same with layer 2. I think the 32X worked in a similar way. It imported the graphics from the Genesis and layed 32X graphics over that and then output. However I have seen 32X graphics be between Genesis layers which is pretty amazing considering the layering must be done in analog.
Yeah, you can set priorities between the BG layers. Thunder Force 4 does this for the first level(ocean level) on the clouds to make it look like there are more than 2 BG layers. The effect is pretty convincing until you try to scroll the fake BG layers vertically independently of the main BG - that's why all BG's move vertically in unison. The SNES has a lot of systems beat with up to 4 independent BG layers, but it handicapped with just 64k VRAM for all those layers.
Anyone know why'd they do this?
I'm not sure if this applies to this screen, but simply saying a system can do 64 colors does not imply just that. Infact, the genesis, turbo, snes can only do 16colors per 8x8 tile. The genesis has 4 16color palettes to chose from, the SNES has 8 16color palettes, and the PCE/TG/SGX has 16 16color palettes. Any pixel inside a tile can not access/use a color outside its 16color assigned palette. Technically, the genesis can display 64 colors, but in reality certain 60 or less color backgrounds are not possible on the genesis display with some sort of (limited) palette trick. This excluding shadow/highlight which is taxing to the sprite count/scanline limit or use of second layer BG.
Without some real technical skills it would be impossible to prove either way, but I think its safe to say they aren't real-time since there really wouldn't be any point in it.
I can say. I've looked at the spites and tiles of the ISO data track and all the polygons are pre-rendered - enemies and bosses. Kind of sad as these could have been nicely hand drawn art instead :?
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Yeah, what I mean the whole system v system argument is pretty pointless.
Useless? Yes. Fun? Obviously. Just look at the activity in this thread. Six pages in what, one day?
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Gotta hand it to you though...that escape tactic to save face was classic. Haven't seen that in years, usually people just go down fighting. :P :lol:
Escape tactic? You can't tell we were joking from the log Keranu posted? I thought it was pretty obvious we were f*cking with him, I'm surprised it got to 5 pages with nobody but Obadon having a clue.
Oh and Silpheed DOES use polygons, just play the game and you'll see what I mean. Go to the option screen and you can view and rotate any enemy or boss in the game that is made of polygons. The backgrounds and last boss are obviously pre-rendered, duh, but the enemies, player ship, and bosses use polygons.
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I HAVE played Silpheed, and it was always very clear to me that the models were pre-rendered.
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GUTs is right on this one. The backgrounds in Silpheed are all streamed off of the CD. Why they are not grainy like normal Sega CD video is beyond me, but the CD is constantly accessing and streaming. The in games models, (ie: player ship, enemy ships, boss, etc) are all real polygons and that is why they are so teeny tiny and run at a different frame rate than the background (anyone besides me ever notice that?). You can rotate them at will in the options screen and all that nonsense.
What I am not sure about is the intro and cut scenes. I would assume they are pre-rendered. However my friend has a CDX that will play the intro all the way up to stage 1. Stage 1 loads the HUD, then the CDX tries to stream it and the game freezes. It won't run after that. The disc is fine. It works great on my model 1 Sega CD. But if the CDX has problems streaming video, why does it run the intros so effortlessly? I also noticed that the intros seem to have a higher sound quality.
Somebody needs to hack the disc and extract the video files so we can see.
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(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/bomberman94.gif)
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/megabomberman.gif)
I played Mega Bomberman for the first time just a few days ago and I didn't even know it was a port of Bomberman '94. What's worse than that title screen is the actual ingame level, it lost a ton of color and detail.
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5581/bombermancomparekm9.png)
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I honestly would expect no less from Hudson. They would want to make sure their system looks better. There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
From that statement I have to assume you haven't played the PCE version :) Yeah it looks alright, but controls like shit - nowhere near as nice as the arcade and Genesis versions. Collision detection seems to be far more sensitive too.
OD
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I honestly would expect no less from Hudson. They would want to make sure their system looks better. There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.
The thought came across my mind and that could be very true, but then again they did a good job with the Lords of Thunder port and even made a completely updated (or is it a whole different game?) version of Dungeon Explorer.
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I honestly would expect no less from Hudson. They would want to make sure their system looks better. There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.
Well, horrible or not, Mega Bomberman is still one of the MD's most colorful games. Make what you will of that...
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I like Bomberman '94 and Mega Bomberman, It is all a matter of taste I guess. Either way, I like both the Genesis and the Turbo Grafx, but since the Turbo is my favorite system, I cannot get into this as I am biased and it isn't fair because of that.
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Dammit why do I have to log on every single time I post in this thread?
Anyway Dungeon Explorer on the Sega CD is a totally new game... and not really all that great in my opinion. As for Mega Bomberman being one of the Genesis' most colorful games... if that screenshot posted above of the first level is any indication of what the rest of the game looks like, I'd definitely disagree. I've seen Sega Master System games that look more colorful than that.
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I wouldn't say mega bomberman looks awful, but it clearly isn't as good as '94.
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Well, horrible or not, Mega Bomberman is still one of the MD's most colorful games. Make what you will of that...
Nah, I'd say there are far more colorful games for Genesis than Mega Bomberman. Sonics, Dynamite Headdy, and Socket immediately come to mind.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
From that statement I have to assume you haven't played the PCE version :) Yeah it looks alright, but controls like shit - nowhere near as nice as the arcade and Genesis versions. Collision detection seems to be far more sensitive too.
OD
Meh it isnt as smooth as the other versions, but the controls aren't game breaking by any means. I mean it's no Golden Axe.
But then again, I really enjoyed the Master System version of Altered Beast so who am I to argue :?
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I didn't think the PCE version of Altered Beast was bad really. In fact I thought it was pretty cool when I first played it and thought it looked nicer than the Genesis version. The controls don't bother me too much, it's just annoying that you have to press UP to jump and jumping will feel all weird, is this fixed with a three button pad or whatever? The thing that bummed me the most though, honestly, was the lack of voice samples! :D Those are classic, Altered Beast just isn't Altered Beast without them.
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The thought came across my mind and that could be very true, but then again they did a good job with the Lords of Thunder port and even made a completely updated (or is it a whole different game?) version of Dungeon Explorer.
Dungeon Explorer it is a completely different game, yes - but Hudson didn't develop it. They published it but that's all. Westone (creators of the Wonder Boy / Monster World games) developed that game.
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As for Mega Bomberman being one of the Genesis' most colorful games... if that screenshot posted above of the first level is any indication of what the rest of the game looks like, I'd definitely disagree. I've seen Sega Master System games that look more colorful than that.
I'm not going by the screen shot, I'm going from memories of when I played the game back in the day. I remember being quite impressed with it, and liking it a lot. At the time I'd played a shitload of Genesis games. Since I worked at a video store that stocked just about everything, I played the vast majority of anything even slightly interesting from the 16-bit era. I had certainly played the Sonic games, and Dynamite Heady. I love Dynamite Heady.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
Although I never made it too far through the PCE port, I think that both ports are okay, but should've been a lot better.
And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
From that statement I have to assume you haven't played the PCE version :) Yeah it looks alright, but controls like shit - nowhere near as nice as the arcade and Genesis versions. Collision detection seems to be far more sensitive too.
Considering how the original game played to begin with, it couldn't have lost very much. :wink:
Oh and Silpheed DOES use polygons, just play the game and you'll see what I mean. Go to the option screen and you can view and rotate any enemy or boss in the game that is made of polygons.
Although I don't doubt that the Sega-CD could produce the in-game polygon characters in realtime, I wouldn't be surprised if they still used prerendered sprites in the game, but realtime single models in the options mode.
The thing that first led me to believe that the in-game "sprites" were probably prerendered is the fact that they animate within a 2D plain and there is no reason to render them in realtime, not unless they're going to do loopty loops and fly at the screen and stuff.
I hope someone who can be trusted does hack into the game someday to lay this issue to rest.
I honestly would expect no less from Hudson. They would want to make sure their system looks better. There really isn't any reason for the Genesis version to look THAT horrible, and it is awful.
Why would Hudson sabatoge one of it's own games and sell it to try to make 'its own system' look better? This doesn't make any sense.
Why didn't they sabatoge all their SNES and NES games then?
And the Megadrive wasn't really ever even competing with the PC Engine after the beginning and certainly not that late in the systems' lives.
There isn't any reason for any substandard port to be as horrible as it may or may not be. I don't think console-wars subterfuge ever entered into a port's development.
Otherwise, "Super Sonic The Hedgehog" would've been a 5fps launch title for the SFC and the 12-color choppy Cranky Kong Country would've been the Genesis' first $200 68 meg cart. Plus, none of those crappy Sega to NES ports moved SMS systems.
If they were putting out PCE games as secret weapons, they wouldn't have let the developer of the Lords Of Thunder port do such a good job of getting so much color out of the Sega-CD version either.
Mega Bomberman was made primarily for the American audience(was it even released in Japan?), where the Turbo had already long since hopelessly lost out, Hudson had abandoned it's 'own' console years earlier and Bomberman '94 didn't exist.
What Hudson was actually doing with games like Mega Bomberman and Lords Of Thunder, was trying to make money in the USA off of it's large PCE library. Mega Bomberman (and Lords' especially) could only do harm to the Duo in America. And Hudson could care less.
As for Mega Bomberman being one of the Genesis' most colorful games... if that screenshot posted above of the first level is any indication of what the rest of the game looks like, I'd definitely disagree. I've seen Sega Master System games that look more colorful than that.
I don't think that Mega Bomberman has very good Genesis graphics, but it's unfair to compare it to a system as colorful as the SMS.
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"I'm not gay, really!"
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Sega CD Dungeon Explorer is awesome, Westone rules.
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There are several Mega Drive games using polygons. It can natively handle polygons, unlike the SNES and PC Engine.
Nice piece of documented information here. So a PC Engine clocked at 7.2 MHz can't "natively" handle polygons, but an Atari XL crawling at 1.8 Mhz can run 3D effects nobody would deem possible?
Check out Numen (http://numen.scene.pl/) and think about it again.
Not the best polygons ever, but for a computer that is almost 30 years old, that's not too shabby either. And considering both machines are based on the same CPU, in my opinion that says a lot about the untapped potential of the PCE in this domain.
Granted, the PCE was not designed by Jay Miner...!
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
As to be expected, my comments about Altered Beast are the definitive ones. So CLICK HERE (http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?p=162976#post162976) to read my reviews on ALL versions of Altered Beast. That's right I review them all: Arcade, Genesis, Sega Master System, NES (Famicom), PC Engine (Both HuCard and CD-ROM), GameBoy Advance, and even the PS2 version. Click and read NOW!
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The way I see it...the PCE port of ALtered Beast is terrible. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Genesis port buries the PCE port many times over. I've actually played through and beaten the Genesis port, yet I couldn't even get through the first level of the PCE port due to the terribly shitty controls and haphazard coldet that rivals Impossamole. However, it's almost a moot point as far as I'm concerned...a crap port of a rather lackluster and dull game isn't really going to scar my experience...but someone still has some serious explaining to do for the exceptionally shitty port of Golden Axe to the PCE.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
As to be expected, my comments about Altered Beast are the definitive ones. So CLICK HERE (http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?p=162976#post162976) to read my reviews on ALL versions of Altered Beast. That's right I review them all: Arcade, Genesis, Sega Master System, NES (Famicom), PC Engine (Both HuCard and CD-ROM), GameBoy Advance, and even the PS2 version. Click and read NOW!
Really nice reviews there. The NES version looks like a classic!
I always found Altered Beast really frustrating, not just on PCE but on SMS and Megadrive as well, even though the last two were moderate to dead easy to finish. I think I have a soft spot for the game for no apparent reason though, and would go to say the fondest memories I have are of the SMS version, I loved the music in it.
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The way I see it...the PCE port of ALtered Beast is terrible. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Genesis port buries the PCE port many times over. I've actually played through and beaten the Genesis port, yet I couldn't even get through the first level of the PCE port due to the terribly shitty controls and haphazard coldet that rivals Impossamole. However, it's almost a moot point as far as I'm concerned...a crap port of a rather lackluster and dull game isn't really going to scar my experience...but someone still has some serious explaining to do for the exceptionally shitty port of Golden Axe to the PCE.
Telenet has a LOT to answer for, and not just for Golden Axe.
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Now if they were going to use pre-rendered sprites in Silpheed for the player ship, enemies, and bosses, why wouldn't they make them more impressive looking? They are obviously the same polygon ships that you see on the option screen, I doubt that somebody said "hey I know everything is pre-rendered, but lets code some polygons in here so people can rotate them for no reason!". It's just common sense that they're polygons.
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GUTS, it's possible they didn't make the ships more impressive looking just so they could fool the gamer into believing they are real polygons. I know that sounds silly, but hell I think that could be true. I also don't think the polygon test screen really proves anything either, just look at the "Polygon Test" in After Burner II for PCE. Not saying I don't think the hardware could handle real polygons for a game like that, but you could easily do the same with pre-rendered.
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I think Chris Covell could torch the f*ck out of the CPU on the PCE, from his programming wizardry! :D
Then y'all's jaws would just hit the floor and we'd all hug each other, and sing in harmony holding hands al across the world, ala hands across the world. :D
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Yeah but when you actually play Silpheed it's obvious they're not pre-rendered, they look totally out of place on the backgrounds. It's pretty easy to spot if you fire the game up again, I don't see how you could mistake them for pre-rendered sprites since they move all jerky and shit like polygons did in old games.
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And whats with the dissing of Altered Beast? I think it's a perfectly good conversion, on all systems.
As to be expected, my comments about Altered Beast are the definitive ones. So CLICK HERE (http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?p=162976#post162976) to read my reviews on ALL versions of Altered Beast. That's right I review them all: Arcade, Genesis, Sega Master System, NES (Famicom), PC Engine (Both HuCard and CD-ROM), GameBoy Advance, and even the PS2 version. Click and read NOW!
That's a cool rundown of the series, other than all the PC Engine bashing.
The Sega Master System version actually gains a lot with FM sound-
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/alteredbeastsmsfm.mp3
Anybody know of a sound test code for this game?
I've always thought that the NES version is really an aborted Gameboy color port. That would explain pretty much everything about the visuals.
The way I see it...the PCE port of ALtered Beast is terrible. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Genesis port buries the PCE port many times over. I've actually played through and beaten the Genesis port, yet I couldn't even get through the first level of the PCE port due to the terribly shitty controls and haphazard coldet that rivals Impossamole. However, it's almost a moot point as far as I'm concerned...a crap port of a rather lackluster and dull game isn't really going to scar my experience...but someone still has some serious explaining to do for the exceptionally shitty port of Golden Axe to the PCE.
I don't even really consider it a port, since they never attempted to bring across ANY of the ingame graphics.
I'm still surprised at how bland all the home versions of Altered Beast look, considering how colorful they are. The PCE version has as much onscreen color of any game I've tested, on par wit LOXII's boss fights.
What's weird about the PCE CD ports of AB & GA, is one is all game with no CD justification and the other is all CD bells and whistles with no real game.
Now if they were going to use pre-rendered sprites in Silpheed for the player ship, enemies, and bosses, why wouldn't they make them more impressive looking? They are obviously the same polygon ships that you see on the option screen, I doubt that somebody said "hey I know everything is pre-rendered, but lets code some polygons in here so people can rotate them for no reason!". It's just common sense that they're polygons.
The reason that they might make simple 3D prerendered sprites in a game like Silpheed is the same reason why they did in so many other 16-bit games like Sapphire. Developers thought that it was impressive to gamers.
Hell, NEC thought that the PC-FX was better off prerendering all 3D going into the 32-bit generation.
As for how could they make the options mode models realtime and the sprites prerendered, I imagine that it'd be a lot easier for the Sega-CD to render them one at a time instead of a screen-full at a time.
And the one thing we do know for sure, is how much Game Arts invested into doing prerendered polygon visuals that were supposed to look like the real deal in Silpheed.
Plus we know how crazy developers are when it comes to doing stuff like this. Like adding a chip to Megaman X(?) just for a single wireframe enemy or Final Fantasy VII mixing a bunch of fmv with it's system generated models and still using the PSX models in full fmv sequences.
I'm not saying that I know for sure either way, in fact before your recent posts I had always assumed that they were definately prerendered, but now entertain the possibility that they might be realtime.
But there are plently of reasons to explain any scenario. I'm going to fire up the game for the first time in years to take a look for myself now.
One giveaway that they're realtime is if each "sprite" has a unique shape, since they would all turn out different in each frame.
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"I'm not gay, really!"
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Why didn't they sabatoge all their SNES and NES games then?
Hudson was Nintendo's very first 3rd party license when they decided to license out for 3rd partys developers - Nintendo didn't originally allow this. Hudson and Nintendo have had a very close relationship. I think this is why you see a different style of games - they weren't directly competing with Nintendo regardless of PCE's popularity. SFC received a number of ports and games related to existing titles on the PCE CD platform including Emerald Dragon as well as Hudsons own Adventure Island. I suspect Hudson was careful about how they marketed there CD system in competition to the SFC. While Sega was directly competing with Nintendo and it was very rare to see the same license game on both systems in Japan (SFC/MD).
As far as Silpheed enemies being pre-rendered or real-time polygons - what's so hard about believing Sega would try to make seem like it's pushing those polygons? I mean hell, the background is pre-rendered video stream to make it look like real polygons and Sega cleverly didn't say it wasn't? Look at "Blast processing" ad campaign. The Sega-CD's second CPU wasn't rendering those polygons because it was busy streaming the video. So that means the slower main CPU would have to do all the work.
I'll take a look at the savestate from the game to see if I could locate the pre-rendered frames (assuming they're not compressed or in 2bit or 3bit mode), if people are really that interested.
Oh yeah - telenet/lasersoft really are crappy programmers - or atleast they're early inhouse teams were.
Edit: I took a quick look at Silpheed - all the enemy groups of the same polygons design share the same animation and path - if the game is using polygons it's more likely the first enemy polygon is rendered and the following group of same enemies are the prerendered frames of the first.
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Someone needs to rip the "sprites" for Silpheed. Us talking about it won't prove anything.
As for Altered Beast's FM sound, I think I prefer the PSG. The SMS FM sounds have always sounded... wrong. The drums are always way too loud over every other instrument, and the rest of the music sounds very muted.
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Someone needs to rip the "sprites" for Silpheed. Us talking about it won't prove anything.
As for Altered Beast's FM sound, I think I prefer the PSG. The SMS FM sounds have always sounded... wrong. The drums are always way too loud over every other instrument, and the rest of the music sounds very muted.
I thought that the fm sfx were pretty cool. Usually I do prefer the PSG music for SMS games, but am also biased from playing them that way for a couple decades. It's cool to have alternate versions though.
The first time I heard Phantasy Star's fm sound, in the Saturn collection, I hated it and thought that the fm module only ruined games. It took getting a Mark III SMS and playing a few games on real hardware to make me appreciate good Mark III fm. But most games seem to only tack on fm support and don't sound as good.
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You should record a few side-by-side comparisons for a few SMS games to be presented on your site or something. I wish there was an FM module that would attach to the expansion slot of a US SMS. I wonder why they didn't support it in the Genesis/Mega Drive hardware. It would have been fairly trivial I would think.
The voices in Altered Beast sound the same in FM and PSG. I assume the PSG does all of the voices anyway.
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You should record a few side-by-side comparisons for a few SMS games to be presented on your site or something. I wish there was an FM module that would attach to the expansion slot of a US SMS. I wonder why they didn't support it in the Genesis/Mega Drive hardware. It would have been fairly trivial I would think.
The voices in Altered Beast sound the same in FM and PSG. I assume the PSG does all of the voices anyway.
When the games allow either uniterupted play or a sound test, I plan on recording every SMS soundtrack I love. The 2 most likely candidates to get their PSG soundtracks recorded first are Ys and Miracle Warriors, since I've already got the FM versions up and they're also my favorite PSG soundtracks.
Miracle Warriors will be the best FM vs PSG game, since it has the best examples of both in my opinion.
I've had R-Type's FM soundtrack ready to go for a while now, but haven't gotten around to branding and tagging it. Since you reminded me, I'm going to try to get it done tonight. It'll be the first non-Genesis "PCE Audio Deathmatch" contestant... as soon as I decide how I'm going to record the PCE version(real hardware is officially out of the question now). :(
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Hey Joe, I did a little research and you were right - the Genesis can set a seperate scroll speed for every 8 pixel column across the screen.
On another note - The offical sega document states that there are only 6 FM channels and 1 LFO distortion channel
The Yamaha 2612 Frequency Modulation (FM) sound synthesis IC resembles the Yamaha 2151 (used in Sega's coin-op machines) and the chips used in Yamaha's synthesizers.
It's capabilities include:
-- 6 channels of FM sound
-- An 8-bit Digitized Audio channel (as replacement for one of the
FM channels) -- Stereo output capability
-- One LFO(low frequency oscillator) to distort the FM sounds
-- 2 timers. for use by software
To define these terms more carefully; an FM channel is capable of expressing, with a high degree of realism, a single note in almost any instrument's voice. Chords are generally created by using multiple FM channels.
The standard FM channels each have a single overall frequency and data for how to turn this frequency into the complex final wave form (the voice). This conversion process uses four dedicated channel components called 'operators', each possessing a frequency (a variant of the overall frequency), an envelope, and the capability to modulate its input using the frequency and envelope. The operator frequencies are offsets of integral multiples of the overall frequency.
There are two sets of three FM channels, named channels 1 to 3 and 4 to 6 respectively. Channels 3 and 6, the last in each set, have the capability to use a totally separate frequency for each operator rather than offsets of integral multiples. This works well (l believe) for percussion instruments, which have harmonics at odd multiples such as 1.4 or 1.7 of the fundamental.
The 8-bit Digitized Audio exists as a replacement of FM channel 6, meaning that turning on the DAC turns off FM channel 6. Unfortunately, all timing must be done by software -- meaning that unless the software has been very cleverly constructed, it is impossible to use any of the FH channels at the same time as the DAC.
And it looks like only a small number of instruments to choose from
Algorithm 0 -- distortion guitar, "high hat chopper" (?) bass
Algorithm 1 -- harp, PSG (programmable sound generator) sound
Algorithm 2 -- bass, electric guitar, brass, piano, woods
Algorithm 3 -- strings, folk guitar, chimes
Algorithm 4 -- flute, bells, chorus, bass drum, snare drum, tom-tom
Algorithm 5 -- brass, organ
Algorithm 6 -- xylophone, tom-tom, organ, vibraphone
-- snare drum, base drum
Algorithm 7 -- pipe organ
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I wonder why there would be a PSG instrument when they had a real PSG chipset that can be used simultaneously with the Yamaha? Anyway what does that document have to do with SMS FM sound? Is the Yamaha chip not über-powerful enough to do SMS FM sound? If not, they should have built in compatibility.
Also I'm pretty sure those instruments are all default. Many games seemed to have their own sound and instrument set.
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Anyway what does that document have to do with SMS FM sound? Is the Yamaha chip not über-powerful enough to do SMS FM sound? If not, they should have built in compatibility.
Nothing to do with SMS FM. I just figured I'd post it because I remembering the system being shown as having 9 FM channels and 1 white noise channel. Looking at the doc it becomes more apparent about the rehash of instruments(not a bad thing :wink:) and using instrument sounds as sound effects. The document does go on to mention about SMS compatibly mode and not using the FM portion as its not directly compatible. The Gen does have 3 PSG + 1white noise from the SMS compatibility design.
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The SMS FM module has 9 FM channels? I swear I've never heard a polyphony of more than 3 or 4 out of that thing. I guess the other 5 were never, ever used.
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I think Chris Covell could torch the f*ck out of the CPU on the PCE, from his programming wizardry! :D
Then y'all's jaws would just hit the floor and we'd all hug each other, and sing in harmony holding hands al across the world, ala hands across the world. :D
Dude, sometimes I don't know what you're on, but I want some! :)
OD
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I think Chris Covell could torch the f*ck out of the CPU on the PCE, from his programming wizardry! :D
Then y'all's jaws would just hit the floor and we'd all hug each other, and sing in harmony holding hands al across the world, ala hands across the world. :D
Dude, sometimes I don't know what you're on, but I want some! :)
OD
Weeeeeeeeeeee!
(http://haacked.com/images/TreeBig.jpg)
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Damn that's a HUGE tree! I'd love to visit one like that.
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Damn that's a HUGE tree! I'd love to visit one like that.
You could hollow it out and live inside like the Keebler elves. :P
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Dude the Keebler elves actually live about 30 minutes away from. I've never actually been inside the factory, but the outside doesn't look like anything the commercials make it out to be. :?