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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Console Chat => Topic started by: Joe Redifer on July 05, 2017, 10:28:00 AM
Title: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 05, 2017, 10:28:00 AM
Rene of dbelectronics has posted an article on his site about possible dangers of using flash carts with your system. Some are fine, others are not. Worst are multicarts.
His article is here: https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/
The 2nd version of the Turbo Everdrive is fine. The original isn't. Of course I have the original. Looks like I'll have to rebuying newer revisions ofsome carts and I hope Krikzz updates some of the others which have no good revisions, like Mega Everdrive X7, Master Everdrive etc etc. Apparently the Darksoft Neo Geo SD thingy is good. Not sure about the NeoSD.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Necromancer on July 05, 2017, 10:48:25 AM
I can't say I understand much of the (lengthy) article, but I'm pretty sure my TED is a 2.x. I should be safe, I guess.
I don't use it much, but what about the neoflash ones?
Quote
... I’m also French which means I’m an a$$hole as well!
:lol:
Title: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 05, 2017, 10:50:21 AM
UPDATE: Crap, I'm pretty sure I have TED 1.2. Goddammit.
The TED 2.0 has fancy text and I don't remember fancy text.
What are the chances that Gameofyou or NEOFLASH (as Necro mentioned already) are kosher?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: jtucci31 on July 05, 2017, 11:20:41 AM
Well shit, I have my V1 ED going strong. I'll have to read this article more when I get home.
Even worse is that I can't sell this one knowing I'll be giving someone else potential problems. Bummer.
Title: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 05, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
Well shit, I have my V1 ED going strong. I'll have to read this article more when I get home.
Even worse is that I can't sell this one knowing I'll be giving someone else potential problems. Bummer.
I think we can sell them as "collector's item only—not for use"
I'm going to wait 10-15 years...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 05, 2017, 11:23:31 AM
"Sell everything and get a flash cart," they said. "It'll be fun," they said.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: jtucci31 on July 05, 2017, 11:27:04 AM
Maybe I can do a special group buy for the first group I did where we all got the V1 :-k
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 05, 2017, 11:34:22 AM
TED v2+ have compatibility issues with mods (and seemingly various stock models) and different levels of success playing various sound files.
If this guy knows what he's talking about (people have reported problems with his own products), then what's important to know is what exactly could be damaged and what would the repair involve.
Old hardware needs service whether you use it or not. The trade off for what these flash carts provide is still worth it. Especially for consoles which are still relatively cheap to buy.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 05, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
TED v2+ have compatibility issues with mods (and seemingly various stock models) and different levels of success playing various sound files.
If this guy knows what he's talking about (people have reported problems with his own products), then what's important to know is what exactly could be damaged and what would the repair involve.
Old hardware needs service whether you use it or not. The trade off for what these flash carts provide is still worth it. Especially for consoles which are still relatively cheap to buy.
I will trade you TED v2+ for my V1.2 (?) V1.3(?)
(I'm out with the kids)
SRSLY.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Jibbajaba on July 05, 2017, 11:40:27 AM
I saw this when it was posted on Reddit. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been? I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 05, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
I saw this when it was posted on Reddit. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been? I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?
I'll trade your TED 2 for my TED 1.3.
Thank you.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 05, 2017, 11:49:27 AM
I kept my TED 1 after buying a TED 2 because you need both to play everything and on everything.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on July 05, 2017, 11:52:26 AM
Old hardware needs service whether you use it or not. The trade off for what these flash carts provide is still worth it. Especially for consoles which are still relatively cheap to buy.
This was my thoughts on the matter. While a modded PCE Duo is $300, a Genesis goes for less than $50. I don't play it all that much and if it goes in 5 years, I'll get another one. I figure we'll all be using virtual screens that are implanted into our brains by then anyway.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 01:42:22 PM
As the flash cards started to multiply and cover the earth we would hear stories about how certain systems (maybe US Turbo?) couldn't seem to provide the current the flash card needed. This never sounded good...Thanks to this guy taking the time to go over many boards we now know it's because people who make flash cards in general apparently think it's OK to ignore the spec sheets of the componants they are reselling. If this were a "real" consumer product that would be a bunch of problems. Considering the numbers of these things moving nowadays I'd say it's irresponsible for the makers of flash cards to do this and not tell the customer about it.
I agree, it's a valid point, the world could lose 100,000 SNES systems to shitty flash card designs and it wouldn't really matter. Some of these flash cards are more expensive than the system they run in. I would worry about a Neo or something though. Duos...probably not a great idea, Turbografx 16...hm...I think we found a use for the giant POS TG-16, sacrifice it to the flash cards!
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 05, 2017, 01:50:35 PM
I'm not worried about the NeoSD because of the extreme knowledge they have of the hardware and dedication to perfection. The price would be justified even if it wasn't the highest quality flash cart. The Neo Geo multi-carts are well known to be problematic.
It's true that some flash carts cost more than the hardware, but that's pretty much meaningless. None cost more than the libraries they support.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Johnpv on July 05, 2017, 02:13:31 PM
I saw this when it was posted on Reddit. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been? I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?
I don't understand posts like this. If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem? When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem? To quote his article this is a great response
Quote
“Well, my device has been working properly for 2 years now.” This is like saying: “I’ve been smoking for 2 years and I don’t have cancer. Therefore, smoking does not cause cancer.” If you believe this statement, you deserve to damage your retro console.
While there aren't specific documentations of everdrives killing TG16s or Super Nintendos there are documented cases of the 150 in 1's killing NES' and the MVS 161 in 1s killing plenty of MVS boards. Plus how many consoles have died with people not knowing the reason to blindly attribute it to an everdrive you never thought would be an issue. Unless someone was specifically looking for this it'd be hard to know over the last few years how many people it's happened to.
Rene knows his shit, and I've never seen issues with his products, some with the chinese knock offs of his stuff but not with his particular products. IMHO the reaction should be less to be blaise about the issue and hope for Krikzz and the maker of similar products to update their designs and release a better product.
I'm glad someone brings this stuff to light, same with Voultar's recent video about the issues with Retro_Console_Accessories Genesis RGB cables and the boosted sync amp in them.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 02:35:07 PM
There no question that running components outside of their rated capacity is a half-ass measure unless you are building an F1 car or some other such bleeding edge stuff. The OEM would never spec a cart that draws this much so I don't see why it's acceptable for someone claiming to sell a quality product.
However, if your $175 flash card wastes a $35 system, who gives a shit? Especially since you "saved" so much money running flash cards in the first place.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Johnpv on July 05, 2017, 03:02:30 PM
Enough of those $35 systems get wasted and they're not going to be $35 systems any more.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 03:29:27 PM
I was being sarcastic. The $175 flash card that wastes systems is clearly crap and deserves to die long before a Genesis or whatever that's been doing its job, probably flawlessly, even with weird modems and staking carts and whatnot, for decades.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: xelement5x on July 05, 2017, 03:53:14 PM
I read the article and was having a hard time fully understanding which components in a system are actually being damaged by the higher 5V. I can understand the wear on the cart (since it's taking more voltage than originally specified), but can someone explain this better?
Prolonged use of components outside of their specified tolerances inevitably leads to failure. On the console side, the stress is excessive current output on digital outputs when driving a logic high. On the cartridge side, the stress is excessive heat dissipation due to conduction of the clamping diodes. I have already heard from several friends that their NES consoles have died most likely due to their admittedly heavy use of cheap multicarts. These are particularly bad. I would avoid these like the plague. I suspect poorly designed Everdrives will require more time before we start seeing failures.
What does this mean? Does it impact the voltage regulators which convert the power source in to 5V normally? Or something else on a given board?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 05, 2017, 04:09:16 PM
Well I know what should but also won't happen here. Krikzz should fix this shit at cost.
What sound do we hear when he would be asked to do this? Kricketzz.
There no question that running components outside of their rated capacity is a half-ass measure unless you are building an F1 car or some other such bleeding edge stuff. The OEM would never spec a cart that draws this much so I don't see why it's acceptable for someone claiming to sell a quality product.
However, if your $175 flash card wastes a $35 system, who gives a shit? Especially since you "saved" so much money running flash cards in the first place.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 05, 2017, 04:13:24 PM
IMHO the reaction should be less to be blaise about the issue and hope for Krikzz and the maker of similar products to update their designs and release a better product.
I'm glad someone brings this stuff to light, same with Voultar's recent video about the issues with Retro_Console_Accessories Genesis RGB cables and the boosted sync amp in them.
Everyone is glad to be tipped off to potential problems, but these guys made videos strictly for tech experts and the rest of us are still waiting to find out what a flash cart would actually damage if it ever happened and specifically what kind of cables are considered "boosted".
Remember that playing real carts and CDs leads to your cart ports and CD drives, plus other important parts to wear out or break down.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 05, 2017, 04:25:46 PM
I'll admit the video was a bit frustrating for me. I found it much more easier to read the article from the DBE guy.
What can actually happen if something goes wrong with that cable? I've had and used one for years now. Including being fed to two different things (pvm and dvdo processor) and never had any issues. It was never directly plugged into the display though, as I had to use a break out cable. So yeah maybe someone smarter than me can answer it simply, what could go wrong using the cable as-is?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Jibbajaba on July 05, 2017, 06:06:31 PM
I saw this when it was posted on Reddit. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been? I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?
I don't understand posts like this. If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem? When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem?
Dude, in my 40 years on this earth, scientists have gone back and forth countless times on whether or not it's OK to eat eggs, eat butter, drink wine, etc. etc. MTBE is OK; MTBE is not OK. It's fine to spray DDT in people's faces, oh wait no it causes reproductive problems. I get that in theory these devices are not optimized for the hardware on which they are running. Comparing this to a car recall is ridiculous. We're talking about video games. Wake me up when peoples' systems actually start taking shits en masse and maybe I'll care.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 05, 2017, 06:10:11 PM
The point is more that this is an easy enough fix to implement, that wouldn't even cost much. Especially given the massive premium that Kricketzz charges.
Also, isn't it better to catch it before systems die off in bulk? Obviously in the scheme of things, it's just video games but this goes back to the premium product + easy fix point.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 06:21:49 PM
It's bad design, period. If someone builds a house for four with a heating system from a one bedroom apartment there are consequences.
Also, it's not something like eggs being good/bad for you. Humans and eggs don't have spec sheets. Nobody knows WTF is really going on with natural organisms. These flash chips have spec sheets from their actual manufacturers that say, flatly, that 5V is too much. It would be like if God himself sent an email to you that said, "eat one egg a day". These are cheap ass designs by questionable people. There is no interpretation. You don't put ten lbs of sausage into a five pound sack.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 05, 2017, 06:42:57 PM
Even without having clicked the link from Joe yet, I can guess from the posts here in this thread that the problem is as simple as Ohm's law. Feed a component (flash cart) more voltage than it was designed for, then it will draw more current from the device (console), than both the component as well as the device are designed for, resulting in heat and thus damage.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 07:13:24 PM
I read the article and was having a hard time fully understanding which components in a system are actually being damaged by the higher 5V. I can understand the wear on the cart (since it's taking more voltage than originally specified), but can someone explain this better?
Prolonged use of components outside of their specified tolerances inevitably leads to failure. On the console side, the stress is excessive current output on digital outputs when driving a logic high. On the cartridge side, the stress is excessive heat dissipation due to conduction of the clamping diodes. I have already heard from several friends that their NES consoles have died most likely due to their admittedly heavy use of cheap multicarts. These are particularly bad. I would avoid these like the plague. I suspect poorly designed Everdrives will require more time before we start seeing failures.
What does this mean? Does it impact the voltage regulators which convert the power source in to 5V normally? Or something else on a given board?
Basically, electronic circuits are designed with a balance. If you have 5V pushing a motor you're expecting the motor to consume a certain about of current if you put a 3V motor in its place it...may spin faster, for a while, but even if it doesn't fall apart from going too fast it will eventually fail from excessive current that it can't use.
With data, I admit I'm not as experienced as I am with more conventional electrical loads. However the concept is the same. You now have less impedance than a normal cart. Therefore the 5V is going to push more current through the flash than the flash is rated for. But it will not only put more through the flash than it expects but you are flowing more current THROUGH THE ENTIRE CIRCUIT (as always, current flow through a circuit is the same everywhere), most of which Sega made, which means your poor Genesis is now being asked to supply more amps than it was supposed to but it's also experiencing that over-current through...well, exactly what I'm not sure, and it depends on the system, but I think its possible you could lose RAM, CPU, or anything else that lives on the cart bus.
This news isn't going to stop me from using flash carts but it does make me kinda not want to buy any more until they start designing entire projects instead of just wiring flash directly to your cart slot. This has less to do with reliability and more to do with just not wanting to support hacks.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 05, 2017, 07:46:17 PM
The thing is, these flashcart designers could have easily dropped in a series resistor acting as a simple voltage divider. Just as you do with simple DIY LED applications to prevent them from being damaged through overcurrent. Or have a proper voltage regulator.
This is nothing fancy, pretty much everybody who attended electronics class at school once built a voltage divider.
-----
By the way, Joe: Thank you very much for making aware of the article you linked, I'm reading it right now. I'm shocked to see some flash carts neglecting even the simplest princliples of good basic electronics design, and I'm not even talking about correct voltage levels but also other things that upset me (no proper ground planes, etc.).
-----
I will take a closer look at my gamingenterprisesinc LowCost Flash HuCard. Quite a coincidence my Turbo Duo died a few days after I had the cart inserted for the first time...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 07:57:40 PM
Would just a resister work? I don't think it's that simple, but regardless, it's clearly achievable.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 05, 2017, 08:23:47 PM
Not as sophisticated and stable as a true voltage regulator (regardless of old style linear regulator or modern style switched regulator), which is much better suited for a wide range of input voltages and shifting loads.
But it will work if these criteria are met: V-input stays constant and predictable all the time. R1 (series resistor) is physically sized to take up the heat (Wattage) that occures in the voltage drop. R2 (flash cart) stays constant in value all the time time.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: TR0N on July 05, 2017, 08:24:53 PM
Have the latest TED so i'm good.I have thought about selling my old everdrive md to buy the latest model.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 05, 2017, 08:44:38 PM
Not as sophisticated and stable as a true voltage regulator, which is much better suited for a wide range of input voltages and shifting loads.
But it will work if these criteria are met: V-input stays constant and predictable all the time. R1 (series resistor) is decent sized enough to take up the heat that occures in the voltage drop. R2 (flash cart) stays constant in value all the time time.
Yes, but would it cause issues on a data bus? He's saying there should be level translator ICs in there, he never speaks of simple regulation or load. The 5V stuff has to read and write at 5V and the 3.3V stuff has to read and write at 3.3V. Also, data lines have almost no current consumption so resistors barely work the same way as they do with a light or a heater or a motor or something.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 05, 2017, 11:18:09 PM
Why should this cause issues?
EDIT: I have now read the linked article, and from what I can see, some Everdrives that are rated as "bad/avoid" actually use series resistors to drop the voltage.
1. So am I correct in the assumption that the resistors chosen are not the correct resistance value? 2. Does the author of the article generally dismiss series resistors, in favor of proper voltage level translation using semiconductors?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Johnpv on July 05, 2017, 11:31:24 PM
Dude, in my 40 years on this earth, scientists have gone back and forth countless times on whether or not it's OK to eat eggs, eat butter, drink wine, etc. etc. MTBE is OK; MTBE is not OK. It's fine to spray DDT in people's faces, oh wait no it causes reproductive problems. I get that in theory these devices are not optimized for the hardware on which they are running. Comparing this to a car recall is ridiculous. We're talking about video games. Wake me up when peoples' systems actually start taking shits en masse and maybe I'll care.
Yeah not even remotely the same. You're comparing apples to oranges. This isn't some doctors guessing at partial data it's a manufacturer specifically saying using voltages higher than 3.3v on this line will break things. Literally the manufacturer of the part is saying this is bad don't do this and you're still questioning it. It's like saying yeah my tires are only rated for 80 mph but until some one drives them at 160 and they blow that's what I'm going to do. Besides since no one was looking for this who knows how many systems these have killed.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: sirhcman on July 06, 2017, 02:32:43 AM
It's like saying yeah my tires are only rated for 80 mph but until some one drives them at 160 and they blow that's what I'm going to do. Besides since no one was looking for this who knows how many systems these have killed.
I'll take a dead system over a blowout at 160 mph any day of the week. It's all about perspective.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Necromancer on July 06, 2017, 02:52:30 AM
I checked my TED and it's a version 2.2. I'm good to go!
Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't see anyone answer if the neoflash is safe or not.
Also, I didn't see an answer to just what is ruined. It's all well and good to say systems are being "killed", but there's a big difference between a system with a melted pcb and all its components and one where a $3 voltage regulator dies after 5 years of heavy flashcart use or a system that needs new caps after 10 years instead of them lasting 30 years. I'm not saying it's okay to build shit wrong, of course, but some consequences are a lot more worrisome than others.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 06, 2017, 04:33:24 AM
^ Necro: Still no word on: Neoflash (not that it matters) gameofyou (only a handful of us have one, I think)
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 06, 2017, 04:39:54 AM
It's not going to be a voltage regulator. A regulator isn't going to care about such a small difference. The problem is that your CPU, your RAM, and anything that touches the flash is having more current pumped through it than normal.
Exactly WHAT will fail is anyone's guess, maybe nothing, but the parts at risk aren't common diodes and resisters, they are more important things like your CPU.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 06, 2017, 04:48:40 AM
Well said.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on July 06, 2017, 05:02:44 AM
I also want to hear about the NeoSD.
It's good that this information has come to light. Although, multi-carts have already been known to damage consoles. It will help us all make better decisions in the future. However, no one is saying what exactly is being damaged in these consoles. I assume every console model will have a different component fail since the weak link in every system is different.
With this news being made public and assuming the flash cartridge manufacturers don't change their designs, we will start seeing one of two things popping up:
1. Nothing will change because the amount of current isn't enough to actually damage the parts. 2. The repair guys will start putting out PSAs explaining the cause of the problem and how to fix it on a particular console model.
Also, please stop comparing the death of a gaming console to f*cking cancer or a car crash. I would much rather lose all of my consoles than have cancer.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Necromancer on July 06, 2017, 05:09:53 AM
EDIT: I have now read the linked article, and from what I can see, some Everdrives that are rated as "bad/avoid" actually use series resistors to drop the voltage.
1. So am I correct in the assumption that the resistors chosen are not the correct resistance value? 2. Does the author of the article generally dismiss series resistors, in favor of proper voltage level translation using semiconductors?
Resistors only work when there is load in a system. RAM doesn't do any real work so whatever resistance value you put in there is basically meaningless. It's always going to be within a few mV of 5V no matter what the resistor is because RAM isn't designed to drop voltage. Of course, it *is* dropping more voltage now because some dipshit is using incompatible flash but logic chips should be all using the same voltage level to avoid as much switching trama as possible.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 06, 2017, 05:12:43 AM
^ Necro: Still no word on: Neoflash (not that it matters) gameofyou (only a handful of us have one, I think)
I think we can assume all cheap cards have this issue, including the French ones, the Canadian ones, all of Tobias's shit, most likely every repro.
I don't know if any of the cards you mentioned even work anymore (not mine!) but there are now 10x as many copies of Magical Chase as there used to be so I don't know about those...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 06, 2017, 05:19:12 AM
Dude, in my 40 years on this earth, scientists have gone back and forth countless times on whether or not it's OK to eat eggs, eat butter, drink wine, etc. etc.
Actually, you mean the media have gone back and forth. The science generally doesn't make claims that large. Go and read the actual studies, and you'll see they're not as alarmist as others make them out to be.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: xelement5x on July 06, 2017, 05:58:15 AM
So, would it be possible to make a pass-through device (I am thinking about the Genesis specifically) that steps the 5V to the 3.3V and then passes that to the Everdrive to use? Or are there other parts of the Everdrive that specifically need the 5V and wouldn't work with a 3.3V instead.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: sirhcman on July 06, 2017, 06:37:05 AM
I will wait to hear what thesteve says on the matter before dumping my TED v1
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Johnpv on July 06, 2017, 07:11:54 AM
Also, please stop comparing the death of a gaming console to f*cking cancer or a car crash. I would much rather lose all of my consoles than have cancer.
No one is comparing them in a level of issue. The point in the comparison is that lack of occurrence of something in a shortly poorly monitored time does not equal the thing never happening.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 06, 2017, 09:03:30 AM
So, would it be possible to make a pass-through device (I am thinking about the Genesis specifically) that steps the 5V to the 3.3V and then passes that to the Everdrive to use? Or are there other parts of the Everdrive that specifically need the 5V and wouldn't work with a 3.3V instead.
As a matter of practicality, since this would only be needed to fix a shitty product more poorly made than itself, I don't see this happening. I guess it would depend on the system in question.
The reason he speaks of level modifiers instead of regulators or current limiting resistors is because it's really a much more delicate job.
(I really need to say, I am not an expert on electronics or semiconductors of this nature. My professional electronic experience is mostly automotive and I sorta know a few things about audio but that's about it. I think I understand the issue well enough to say this though.)
So let's say you have a 5V bus and a 3.3V flash cart. What happens?
The 3.3V chip would be overpowered. This is no problem. You can put a reg in there or even just a resistor, if you know all the hardware variations, since that actually would work for powering the chip. This has been done with most of these carts according to the video.
However, carts have lots of pins. The Neo has 256! Many are unused but regardless, there is more than just powering the chip to take care of. All the data lines on the bus (cart slot) are designed to send and receive at 5V.
Let's say, for example, that you had just one data out and one data in. They could be connected to the CPU, the RAM, the sound chip, some serial bus, whatever. Just consider that one is in and one is out.
So the data out on the bus is hooked to a data in on the flash. The flash basically watches that pin for a square wave, bits, like knocking on a door. This works fine, the flash will see the knocking on the door, but it will be REALLY LOUD, like that mouth breather who slams the door of your car so hard it shakes the entire parking lot. Now, if this were something a motor being overpowered it would just spin faster and make more heat and maybe waste it's bearings. The data input on a chip is super high impedance though. It may be 10KOhms or more. So the data outline is beating on the door like crazy but the door is made of concrete and isn't going anywhere.
Where does the voltage go? If current is high, as is the theory, then this chip is dropping voltages. Its dropping the same it normally does PLUS whatever extra voltages there is. Since the chip can only produce heat as a byproduct of switching this means that all the voltage drop is basically coming from arcing at the data lines.
Right? I think so. What makes connections arc is a difference in voltage between the two points. Connecting 5V to 5V does nothing. Connecting 5V to 0V will make shitloads of heat and melt everything if a breaker doesn't stop it. The increase in heat dissipation at the data line could be felt on both sides of the bus. In addition to arcing you have the possibility that the chip's lack of fortitude is causing data lines to flow more current, probably way more than normal since normal is almost immeasurably small. This could be within the ability of the game machine or maybe not. We know it wouldn't be anything the designers planed for since they were using 5V ROMs. These ROMs don't let the knocking on the door push the whole building down like the 3.3V ones do when you overpower them.
So is there a way to do this? Oh sure. Moving from one voltage range to another is just part of electronics design. It's not as simple as adjusting a level though. You need to give the bus a 5V door to knock on, and then pass that on as a 3.3V knock without any latency or hysteresis of any kind. It has to put out a perfect square wave just like the source but at a lower high voltage state.
The data line back from the cart to the bus will now need its 3.3V boosted to 5V. Again, it must be perfect and the extra voltage can't come from the 3.3V flash.
So presumably level modifiers are chips that do this. They can handle data coming in at one level of voltage and then pass it along at another without f*cking up the data and while isolating each complaint so that everything works within its spec and can't have a low resistance component somewhere down the line causing high current draw.
Ok. So how many lines is that on a game cartridge? I think the guy say twenty some for a Genesis. Now look at that Neo cart.
Holy shit. Their PCBs will have to become much more complicated to accommodate this. Also, it's good to hear that the NeoSD thing is fully legit in this area. That certainly helps sell the case to me that that is a well make product.
As for a game Genie kinda thing...maybe, it depends on the system, but it would cost more than the POS flash cart you're trying to fix with it so you should just buy the next version of their POS, I guess.
I will fix those typos later...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Groover on July 06, 2017, 01:49:56 PM
I'm not going to pretend to say I fully understand the details. I do believe what Rene is saying and that the info is factually sound. I have a few flash carts. I'm game for a group buy of V2 TEDs. I have a version 1 and it has ben great but I don't want to harm my two duos and express. I also need to replace my Mega Everdrive. The 5X is supposed be compliant.
I understand some people saying that in real world use they have been ok. That is good to hear but why take the risk. It is like if I have a cigarette I don't just die from it but if I smoke over the years it will catch up with me.
I'm also dealing with my Genesis SCART cables possibly having boosted sync damaging my switch and Framemiester.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 06, 2017, 05:42:51 PM
Great explanation, Zeta. Now even me, the analog electronics guy, got a better understanding of digital electronics. The comparison of knocking on a door is pretty sound. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Jibbajaba on July 06, 2017, 05:53:13 PM
If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem? When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem?
BTW, I've actually taken the time to contact the FAE (Field Applications Engineer) of several flash producing companies (Microchip and Macronix) and discussed the 5V -> 3.3V issue, they both replied "OMG DON'T DO THAT!" when I mentioned adding a series resistor as a simple solution.
*thumbs up*
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: BlueBMW on July 06, 2017, 08:40:27 PM
If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 06, 2017, 11:35:03 PM
Hahaha.
EDIT: Not directed to you, just a general rant:
Reminds me of fellow hobbygrade R/C car drivers on some forums I visit.
They upgrade their cars with fancy high RPM electric motors, but power is still controlled by the stock electronic speed controller. Then they gather in forums and complain about their cars cutting off every other minute. Until they realise that they actually need a better controller that's able to cope with the high current draw and the heat that's building up. Just bodging on a bigger heat sink on the stock controller isn't doing it, since it is still operated outside of its specs.
The same goes for those R/C drivers who can't accept the fact that their modern 2.4 GHz micro-sized radio receivers lack a power regulator to step down the battery voltage from 7.2V to a radio gear compatible range of 4.8V - 6V. And then they are confused when either their receivers or steering servos behave erratic or even release their magic smoke. Even when confronted with the truth that they need an external BEC for power regulation, they still won't believe the facts... until one of their 50+ mph cars gets out of control and causes substantial harm to bystanding people.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 07, 2017, 05:33:01 AM
If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?
Nah, I think it makes more sense to just throw away systems every once in a while until yet another version of these cards gets released that won't do this.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: xelement5x on July 07, 2017, 05:50:35 AM
1. Lot of carts were sold for this years, but NO ONE were returned due the flash chip damage. If carts comes back for repair, they usually damaged physically or has some manufacturing defects. Some early carts, like edmd v2 or super-ed v1, may lost bootloaders, but this is was only software problem. As for possibility of console damage, here also not been detected any problems. I have MD2 and Famicom-av from first days, they intensively used for development and just to play some games. I use them more than 7 years in heavy mode and nothing happens. Also we have few consoles for production testing, they used almost every day and for 7 years only one famicom died, and it happens due the power cord accidentally shorted on console pcb. The only problem with those test consoles is cartridge connectors, they stop working every 5-10 months after such using in extremely heavy conditions, but after replacement they continue working.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 07, 2017, 06:35:15 AM
I've always planned to continue upgrading to new flash carts as they get better and better, just as it's no longer 1990 and I expect to continue needing to have consoles serviced for the rest of my life.
This is just one more thing to take into consideration, but the popularity of all of these early flash carts has shown that this isn't a medium term or wide spread problem.
Ideally we should all be using step up/down converters with consoles from different regions and it's common practice in the community to use the power supplies from other consoles or random ac adaptors, even though we've been warned about potential damage in the long term.
There are many other common behaviours that we know are bad for our hardware, but we take that into consideration when we decide to go ahead and do it any way.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 07, 2017, 10:30:53 AM
I'd have to say that I agree that the things obviously don't genuinely kill consoles at any noticeable rate, yet. Keep in mind the flash cart craze isn't very old yet. If everyone actually played all the shit they are collectarding away, like Pier Solar, we may see more of it.
I think the comparison to a step downs is invalid though. Giving one side of a transformer power supply %15 more voltage isn't anywhere near as dumb as giving your data lines %50 more voltage. This also leaves aside the fact that many systems have world power supplies anyway so buying a step down is pointless. Also, even after whatever your power supply is the system itself is regulated. Also, cheap step down devices often ruin the things you put in them. Etc etc etc. Also, nobody who says CD-R's kill systems has yet, as far as I've seen, promoted that theory with anything approaching this level of analysis.
To the non technical mind the comparison makes sense. "Experts don't know shit."
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 07, 2017, 01:28:29 PM
Maybe I just have golden systems (unlikely since a couple of my optical systems were bought non-working and I brought them back to life) but I've played with a ton of burned discs and had pretty much no issues. I also had a PS2 I bought new die on me within a year and I fed it nothing but retail discs. I very much think the cdr scare tactic thing is crap.
Hard data would be interesting, but I don't think any that would support playing cdrs being bad exists. I of course could be wrong, I only have a small data pool of myself and a few friends that have played games with burned discs.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 07, 2017, 01:48:52 PM
Maybe I just have golden systems (unlikely since a couple of my optical systems were bought non-working and I brought them back to life) but I've played with a ton of burned discs and had pretty much no issues. I also had a PS2 I bought new die on me within a year and I fed it nothing but retail discs. I very much think the cdr scare tactic thing is crap.
There's no way a properly burned CDR could wear out the laser more quickly. If anything, you could optimize the burn to preserve it longer. I'm fairly certain the VG industry made that up to scare people into not pirating.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 07, 2017, 01:54:52 PM
The idea is that today people use high capacity cdr discs and the laser has to move farther as it reads and just gets used more. Of course, someone playing original discs everyday is still working their cd drive much more than someone playing cdrs once a week.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 07, 2017, 02:06:43 PM
I'd say the best advice is to just play and enjoy your consoles. Of course if there are good measures to take such as using a good power adapter (doesn't have to be oem, just not poorly shielded garbage) as well as just not playing from discs when it's easy (ie PS2).
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 07, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
I worked at an EB during the PS2 boom and what I noticed about that system was that if you never played it you couldn't tell if it still worked. If you played it at all there was a good chance it would break in the first year. The ones we got in...I want to say mid-late 2003...failed at a huge rate, with my medium sized store receiving multiple DOA units.
Whenever one of those God forsaken GTA games came out a lot of systems would go from almost no use to 24/7 duty and shit the bed before the customer (and everyone in their family) could beat the game.
Seriously, the number of PS2s purchased to FINISH a game that was started on another, now-broken PS2...it has to be in the hundreds of thousands. That system was massively successful but also a complete POS. There have to be soooooooo many of those things in landfills.
ALSO: The PS2 is the only device I've ever owned that required me to go into a sub-menu and turn the TOSLINK on because it was off by default. WTF is that about?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 07, 2017, 02:49:16 PM
Somehow, I have a launch PS2 that still works, never repaired either. It's my main one. But yes they are such pieces of shit that I keep quite a few around, including a Japanese PS2 that I've already had to repair once.
As for the TOSLINK thing that doesn't surprise me. It's a poor HD console (esp compared to XBOX) with it's crappy ypbpr and of course, the high lens failure rate. There was actually a lawsuit against Sony over improper disc read errors. Then Sony continued their legacy with those early model PS3s and really what can I even say about those that hasn't been said. This is from a company that had exploding batteries in laptops, so I basically never expect quality from them. I had to buy an external fan for my PS4.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 07, 2017, 03:41:19 PM
To be fair, it's hard to wear out an XBox with just the three games that it has. You could have said GameCube at least.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 07, 2017, 03:45:03 PM
To be fair, it's hard to wear out an XBox with just the three games that it has. You could have said GameCube at least.
I just meant comparing the hd video output of those systems.
But heh, just depends what you wanna play. It has a lot of the same games as PS2 and console exclusives (that are also on PC). Of course I'd rather play those games on PC. Obviously it doesn't have much in the way of Japanese games compared to PS2. So for someone that leans towards Japanese games (large portion of this forum I would imagine) it offers next to nothing.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 07, 2017, 04:31:24 PM
But heh, just depends what you wanna play. It has a lot of the same games as PS2 and console exclusives (that are also on PC). Of course I'd rather play those games on PC. Obviously it doesn't have much in the way of Japanese games compared to PS2. So for someone that leans towards Japanese games (large portion of this forum I would imagine) it offers next to nothing.
Now that I think about it, I think there were only three Xbox/PC-exclusives I nabbed after I sold my Xbox: Fable, Jade Empire, and Halo. The rest I got on PS2 or GCN. I wish I could have Panzer Dragoon Orta elsewhere, but I think that was the only one...maybe GunValkyrie.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 07, 2017, 04:42:20 PM
Those would definitely be some of the better PC/Xbox games. There are a lot though. Off the top of my head I know there was a Thief game that made it to Xbox, Cthulhu, Stubbs, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, KOTOR, Morrowind etc...
Of course...playing Morrowind on Xbox is beneath playing Wonder Momo for 10 straight hours in terms of things I'd want to do.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 07, 2017, 05:20:39 PM
As an owner of seven flashcarts and a Neo multicart, I've been eagerly reading about this for the past hour.
Interestingly, the 68000 CPU's actual output voltage for these signals might be more like 4.25 volts (although whether that is consistent across all manufacturers, I can't say), and that would drastically bring down the amount of excess current flow caused by 3.3v flash chips and no proper translators. Someone would really need to check with an oscilloscope to confirm. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/motorola/68000/68000_16-Bit_Microprocessor_Apr83.pdf (page 81)
The Z80 may be much lower - 2.4 volts. http://datasheets.chipdb.org/SGS/SGS8400.pdf (last page)
Of course, that's just two parts, and it's just the minimum rating while the max is unspecified. As for the PCE's CPU, who knows?
Krikzz wrote this: http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=6614.msg51195#msg51195
Doesn't really address the issue of stress on the console side, though.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 08, 2017, 01:27:28 AM
UPDATE: Bernie just informed me that he had a NEOFLASH cart inserted in his DUO (power switched on) when the plastic housing of his DUO *MELTED*.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 08, 2017, 01:59:32 AM
EDIT: I think I get it.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 08, 2017, 05:02:05 AM
Those would definitely be some of the better PC/Xbox games. There are a lot though. Off the top of my head I know there was a Thief game that made it to Xbox, Cthulhu, Stubbs, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, KOTOR, Morrowind etc...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I hate all of those games. The XB was really good at that stuff, the sort of anti-human style-free depressing brown crap that goes on and on for hundreds of hours. The sort of stuff that now describes almost anything that isn't Nintendo. Oh God, how I hate this kind of shit and all the nearly identical covers with a personality-less bad ass standing in pile of wreckage with a green tint to everything.
You forgot Star Wars: Obi Wan, btw.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 08, 2017, 05:47:46 AM
Lol, I'm sure I forgot a bunch of them.
Related: I don't understand how people keep buying Assassin's Creed games. But yet Ubi is like...15 games deep at this point? Something absurd. It shames yearly sports titles honestly.
Even Japan has some of this brown now, looking at Dark Souls.
I recently bought a PS4 but I'm playing just as much PCE, Saturn and old PC games as ever. Yakuza 0 is super fun though.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 08, 2017, 08:06:47 AM
Xbox has lots of nice 2D games/compilations and almost always supports progressive scan, while PS2 almost always doesn't.
There are still cool non-anti-human games like Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Future, Outrun 2, Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil,
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: MrBroadway on July 08, 2017, 08:29:56 AM
Outrun 2 (via 2006), Psychonauts, and Beyond Good and Evil were multiplats. I didn't care for Jet Set Radio, so I never played JSRF.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 08, 2017, 09:03:52 AM
Yeah I replaced my PS2 Capcom classics with the Xbox version awhile back. I need to do the same for Taito Legends. I believe TL2 is EU only for Xbox.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on July 08, 2017, 04:31:39 PM
Related: I don't understand how people keep buying Assassin's Creed games. But yet Ubi is like...15 games deep at this point? Something absurd. It shames yearly sports titles honestly.
Couldn't the same be said for Call Of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, etc?
Also, there were six Mega Man games on the NES alone, so there's nothing new with endless sequels.
I'm not disagreeing that there are too man Assassin's Creed games. I played the first two when they came out, then Black Flag years later. I'd recommend BF if you haven't play an AC game yet.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: bartre on July 09, 2017, 01:00:59 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I hate all of those games. The XB was really good at that stuff, the sort of anti-human style-free depressing brown crap that goes on and on for hundreds of hours. The sort of stuff that now describes almost anything that isn't Nintendo. Oh God, how I hate this kind of shit and all the nearly identical covers with a personality-less bad ass standing in pile of wreckage with a green tint to everything.
You forgot Star Wars: Obi Wan, btw.
Yo guys, don't forget about Otogi 1&2, Kung Fu Chaos (dumb, but fun), Voodoo Vince, and Blinx 1&2. I really love all of those games, and they've got plenty of color and life to em.
also, how come no one talks about bloodwake? It's Twisted Metal on boats.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 09, 2017, 01:12:46 PM
I remember Blinx annoying me but I did finish it.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: seieienbu on July 09, 2017, 01:18:35 PM
db-electronics predicted huge current leaks and flash overheat. According to his prediction, carts without voltage translators should draw 12.5mA current for each IO. Ok, so, 16bit databus should draw then 200mA. I made small measurement for old EDMD-v3. I checked full console+cart power consumption, difference was around 25mA total, and this difference mostly due the normal power consumption of own cartridge components. So, my question is: Where is huge current leaks predicted by db-electronics in his sensation article, or where is large amount of heat? Seriously, i can even make video with thermal camera if somebody still believe in overheating. Just touch chips by fingers and you will feel that all everdrive chips is cold and all console chips just a little warm, same as with original carts.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 08:48:09 PM
All of krikzz claims don't matter as long as his stuff is running outside of the specifications.
If he would be as eager redesigning his flash carts to comply with the chip's and console's specs as he is in denying simple facts...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Punch on July 10, 2017, 08:53:28 PM
Argument with solid data and sound theory
vs.
Just touch it with your fingers!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 08:57:45 PM
Exactly. It's like discussing with "audiophile golden ear" guys - a waste of time and brain cells.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 10, 2017, 09:18:21 PM
But Rene is the one proposing a theory while Krikzz actually measured something.
I mean, we're not going to know until someone checks with an oscilloscope on an IO pin, but there clearly isn't a constant 200mA of extra current being sucked through the data bus. There might be more than 25mA going through there if the components on an Everdrive pull less current off the power rail than a real cart...but I could just as easily believe that the reverse is true, and that that's where the 25mA is coming from.
The next thing I'd be curious to see is how much is consumed during flashing, and how that compares to the ratings on the flash's datasheet.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 09:48:38 PM
It doesn't matter what current flow krikzz has measured, since the components are still getting more voltage than the specifications allow.
Also, the components in krikzz' products aren't properly driven by proper components that translate the voltage to the correct levels. Instead, he is relying on ordinary series resistors, and as it turns out these are not the proper design for this purpose. This has been discussed before in this thread.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 10, 2017, 09:53:41 PM
Yeah, but I don't think people are anywhere near as concerned about their Everdrives being damaged by overvoltage as they are about their consoles being damaged by current flowing in large quantities where it shouldn't be.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 09:55:46 PM
The console hardware itself suffers too anyway, since there's flow from both console to cart, as well as cart to console.
Please read what Zeta said about it.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 10, 2017, 10:07:11 PM
Wouldn't any signals sent from the flash to the console be at 3.3V, and therefore not cause any overvoltage/overcurrent problems?
The whole theory of Rene's big article is that clamping diodes in Everdrive flash cause shorts when hit with 5V from the console, and that these shorts drain shitloads of current even with resistors in the way. This effect may be true to an extent, but the actual amounts don't seem to be anywhere near the estimates.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 11:33:08 PM
From my understanding, the console needs signals upped to 5V again.
Have you read what Zeta said in this thread?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 10, 2017, 11:39:14 PM
Yes. Twice. I don't get what your getting at.
If there isn't too much current being drawn, where is the problem? Where is damage being caused?
Again, nobody really cares about the flash chip in the Everdrive. Those are replaceable and obviously don't have a terribly high failure rate under the current usage.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 10, 2017, 11:41:17 PM
Quote
Dave July 10, 2017 at 21:11
Krikzz did not do what I would consider to be a good test there – he should have run the game for 30 seconds and then run the same game in the Everdrive. I’m no electrical engineer, but I really suspect that running game code might require a bit more electrical power through the cart instead of a static screen that says that there is no card present – I mean, there is no activity on the cart. But that’s just me. I’d be interested to hear Rene’s thoughts.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 10, 2017, 11:46:34 PM
Yes, I'm curious about that, too.
Would you agree that a game running normally on the Everdrive without a significant increase in current consumption would indicate that there is no trouble?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 11, 2017, 12:35:14 AM
I'm not enough into digital electronics that I could give you a qualified answer.
However, I can tell you several quirks about Krikzz measurement video:
1. He should have used an oscilloscope to probe into the circuit, since the voltage and current characteristics aren't strictly DC when dealing with digital electronics. 2. He should have shown both voltage and current at the same time - Best done on a 2-channel scope or with one DMM in series and one DMM in parallel. Since he's not showing the voltage readout, he could feed the Everdrive with whatever voltage he feels comfortable with, unbeknownst to the viewer. 3. Uni-T multimeters suck. Here's why.
Also, I think we all can agree on the fact that Krikzz will pull anything out of his head, just to save him from customer claims.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 11, 2017, 12:40:28 AM
All of krikzz claims don't matter as long as his stuff is running outside of the specifications.
If he would be as eager redesigning his flash carts to comply with the chip's and console's specs as he is in denying simple facts...
I believe that it was his first response in which he said that he has been with new versions and that he agrees about the need for something still not addressed to be taken care of in some of them.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 11, 2017, 12:45:20 AM
That's good. But this also means Krikzz DOES admit that the majority of his Everdrive designs are bad. While on the other hand, he STILL tries to make his customer base believe that all concerns are ill-founded.
What a hypocrite.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 11, 2017, 02:09:46 AM
Of course, I would like to see more consoles tested, using more original carts, and with better equipment - good multimeters at least, oscilloscopes if possible.
However, Rene's article was all about how the diode clamps in the Everdrive flash are almost constantly activating and drawing huge, devastating volumes of extra current through vulnerable parts like the CPU. Now, it looks like the effect may not be happening at all, and if it is, it's likely far less severe than Rene estimated. He could have, and should have, tested this theory before publishing. It also would have been good form to get a statement from Krikzz beforehand.
A fellow posted this on his forum:
Quote
Just as a test I threw my mega everdrive on my opened test bed and was looking for voltage spiking and temperature issues. Guess what? NOTHING. It's been on for about 3 days now. I have a temperature monitor on it just to see what happens and the temperature variance I'm seeing is +/- .5 degrees C. Completely within the limits. I'm also not seeing any abnormal spikes.
Krikzz also said this about the resistors:
Quote
Quote
2. Moreover, I highly suspect the addition of R1 comes from a misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258
R1 comes not from misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258, first of all i used it because directly connected flash works fine for reading, but writing almost always ends with errors.
Optimistically, we could say that it looks like it's never been about protection and always been about accuracy.
It may yet turn out that there is major current being drawn during bus access and that Krikzz is not being forthcoming. A 25mA increase, however, is pretty underwhelming given what Rene was saying. Give me a few more results like that, and I'll continue to use all my old Everdrives without fear.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gypsy on July 11, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
I have a couple scopes but no everdrive or I'd test. Seems like it will end up not being a big deal though.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: sirhcman on July 11, 2017, 02:57:25 AM
So when does the class action lawsuit start?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 11, 2017, 03:54:07 AM
Multiple minutes of a real cart (different from last time) and an Everdrive playing the same game. Difference is still right around 25-30mA.
When Krikzz says "this difference mostly due the normal power consumption of own cartridge components" I'm inclined to believe him.
Also, from Rene's article's comments:
Quote from: Jeremie
1) cartridge bus activity is not really related or proportional to what is happening on screen. CPU is what is driving the address lines and reading data from Flashcart and it still runs the same if this is a static or animated screen, i.e read new instructions/data from ROM area every 4 cycles at most. Actually, the least complex instruction loop (NOP) is what would stress the cartridge bus the most, not the opposite.
2) current consumption is more directly impacted by the number of pins set high on average than number of cartridge access. To test maximal current consumption you would have a test ROM that continuously read FFFFh from address 3FFFFFh (which is max ROM address) but that wouldn’t be a realistic test case either since that’s definitively not what normal games are doing.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 11, 2017, 11:56:42 AM
Does anyone have Pier Solar and an infrared pyrometer as mentioned in the podcast? I'm interested in that test since anything that makes the outer case of the cart measurably warmer is probably pulling more than 25mA.
What Kriz says about Everdrives is important but there are loads more devices with mismatched parts that are aparentky even shittier and less thoughtfully designed. Those ubiquitous yellow multicarts for MVS for example, there seems to be more anecdotal evidence claiming they kill boards.
EDIT: btw, 25-30mA doesn't seem like a lot, but if it's all coming from just the flash, CPU and RAM it might be. Knowing what a normal consumption of just the bus would help. He's measuring consumption of the entire system, of which heat dispation from CPU/RAM is but a tiny portion. For all I know consumption by sensitive componants has tripled. Has this been discussed to death anywhere yet?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gredler on July 11, 2017, 12:21:30 PM
EDIT: btw, 25-30mA doesn't seem like a lot, but if it's all coming from just the flash, CPU and RAM it might be. Knowing what a normal consumption of just the bus would help. He's measuring consumption of the entire system, of which heat dispation from CPU/RAM is but a tiny portion. For all I know consumption by sensitive componants has tripled. Has this been discussed to death anywhere yet?
While it remains to be tested, this extra current is probably just being drawn from the 5V power rail. It really wouldn't be surprising for those flash chips and SD card interfaces to need more power to operate than the mask-ROM in real carts. Not to mention, they're behind a linear 3.3V regulator, which should be dissipating some of that current as heat.
I can't find the link at the moment, but Rene himself did a measurement of Virtua Racing on the Genesis and found it pulling around 100mA more than normal carts, so some extra draw from the power rail is probably within tolerances. It could easily be that the Arcade Card Pro draws more than an Everdrive 1.0.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on July 12, 2017, 09:51:31 AM
If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.
Some extra current consumption is normal for weird carts. Virtual Racing had a DSP, it needs some power obviously. The XBand had an entire analog modem in it and a magnetic card reader as well as its own CPU, RAM, and ROM and ON TOP of that any cart you were using, such as Super Mario Kart which also has its own DSP. The SuFami Turbo hold two carts at once. You have to go all the way up to 32X before they thought they'd see power supply issues.
These are all extra draws from the power side. If that's where this extra 30mA is coming from, no problem. It's still out of spec for reasons of laziness or ignorance or cost, but it isn't doing anything measurably bad in that case. Usually flash is way more power efficient than 25 year old ROMs but it's obviously a lot more flash so...here I don't know much. :)
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 12, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
It looks like all of this started when Rene was measuring the power consumption of Genesis carts and found that while real games were drawing 10-20mA, his Mega Everdrive was drawing more like 130mA.
Without investigating the specific parts on his Mega Everdrive, checking any other Everdrives or contacting Krikzz, he seemingly assumed that this was a typical amount for all Everdrives and wrote his article.
It just so happens that before even learning that Rene was using a Mega Everdrive, Krikzz posted those youtube links on his forum showing the much smaller 25-30mA increase and commented “As for mega ed v1: testing of this cart will not give clear results, because it use SDRAM and FPGA which has pretty high power consumption.”
Later, he wrote in Rene's comment section:
Quote from: Krikzz
So, what exactly your measurements shows, except like normal power consumption of cartridge components? MAX-3000 at 50Mhz Cyclone II at 133Mhz MT48 SDRAM with forced overabundant refresh cycles. Look at datasheet and you will see that it is pretty much normal power consumption for such hardware configuration
So the 130mA current is normal for this particular cart, and it's being drawn from the power rail, not through the bus.
Another person on the article page gave a good (possible) explanation for why the diode clamps probably aren't drawing any significant current - the same kind of clamping is done during bus conflicts, and so parts that use the bus are built not to bleed current this way.
I'm still going to wait until someone at least takes a multimeter measurement, but if what that guy says is true, the Neo Geo mutlicarts are likely OK. I actually wonder if those cheap Chinese chips even have diode clamps in them, to be honest.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 12, 2017, 05:46:38 PM
Krikzz doesn't show how he does his measurements. All you can see is a console, a TV and a DMM. You don't see where exactly on the board he attaches his DMM for current measurement. He also doesn't show any voltage measurements.
If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.
I expect also power spikes in the initialization process of the flash cart, due to Krikzz design with the series resistors being out of specification. There's no way to show them with a DMM like shown in Krikzz current measurement videos. You need a DSO to detect these. That's why Krikzz' videos are debatable.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 12, 2017, 09:19:50 PM
You really think he's trying to deceive us? At a time when his products have come under scrutiny and are likely to be tested by others, and his credibility destroyed if his lie were found out? When he could apologize now for any problem and likely be forgiven by most?
I think you've jumped to a conclusion about Krikzz despite there being no evidence that his products cause damage.
Even crappy multimeters these days are 99% accurate, and that's more than enough to see whether we're drawing 300mA or 500mA. I'm still curious whether any of the extra 25-30mA is being drawn through the bus, but we've heard a good reason why it wouldn't happen, we've seen that the temperature of the Everdrive is not rising during operation, and we've been given a completely believable (if not yet proven) explanation by Krikzz about why the difference in current is there.
I don't smell bullshit. I think that Rene neglected to do proper testing before making such a big claim. If he wasn't going to test, or at least point to similar cases, he should have framed the diode-clamp-effect as a possibility and not as a fact.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 12, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 13, 2017, 01:41:24 AM
I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Johnpv on July 13, 2017, 02:23:46 AM
https://youtu.be/-V2zN2Pj-9A
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on July 13, 2017, 02:25:10 AM
I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.
I agree. I think Rene jumped the gun on his article. If you're going to call someone out on their products, you should do your research. He should have gathered more evidence. His article is written as a blog post about some musing, not a scientific article.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 13, 2017, 02:28:20 AM
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?
It sounds like no one has proven anything either way and there's a lot of half-assing and theories being tossed around. No one should be getting worked up one way or the other until we actually know everything, yet you are very excited, unlike Sam.
Also take into consideration than dbelectronics is trying to get a foothold in a business in which he's now making accusations against his competitors, based on theories which are based on spec sheets.
We're still waiting for the epidemic of destroyed consoles that should exist from years of popularity of such dangerous devices. Kerp in mind that cheap Chinese knockoffs of Everdrives are very popular as well. So forums should be flooded with stories of dead consoles.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Necromancer on July 13, 2017, 02:53:25 AM
Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?
Why are you so eager to label him a lying scam artist? Are you related to rene, does he pay you to bitch, or are you just an a$$hole? :P
Half of your complaints about krikzz are factually incorrect:
"why isn't he redesigning his carts?!?" - newer carts (like the TED 2.x) are improved.
"he's denying simple facts!!!" - he actually agrees that it's a problem, one that's been addressed in redesigns and will be handled in future products.
"he's a liar / full of shit / a hypocrite [for sharing anecdotal evidence and maybe less than scientific test results] !!!" - what's wrong with pointing out the obvious? If rene's dire consequences were fact, why haven't all of krikzz's systems been killed? Why hasn't he had hundreds of returns for voltage and heat related repairs? Why haven't forums been plagued with flashcart users complaining of dead systems?
Seriously, it's not like these things just came out yesterday. Nobody's arguing that they're properly designed and perfectly fine as is, but if they really are as dangerous as rene's spec sheet math says they are, we should have plenty of examples of failures by now.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on July 13, 2017, 04:00:48 AM
Your point is well taken.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on July 13, 2017, 05:58:18 AM
Bernie just emailed me on Facelink—sadly, his THIRD DUO just melted while he was using ver. 1 TED!
Also, he was using a hair dryer...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 13, 2017, 06:40:57 AM
I guess it needs to be pointed out again what Sam said about Krikzz's videos that were posted in this thread: they were put on youtube months ago or longer. They aren't in reaction to that recent article, so of course he wasn't being deceptive in how he framed his shots.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SamIAm on July 14, 2017, 03:52:31 PM
I guess it needs to be pointed out again what Sam said about Krikzz's videos that were posted in this thread: they were put on youtube months ago or longer. They aren't in reaction to that recent article, so of course he wasn't being deceptive in how he framed his shots.
It looks to me that the dates on those videos are from this week?
Anyway, Rene posted a video where he took oscilloscope readings of the voltage levels before and after a resistor on one data bus line on a Mega Everdrive. The readings were taken simultaneously during a single logic high. The result seems to indicate that the diode clamps are activating, so the effect is real. Rene's revised estimate is 6mA per pin per logic high.
What he has not done yet is take actual measurements of total current going through the bus. These would be the figures at the heart of whether Everdrives really are dangerous to old hardware. We'll see some results sooner or later from someone, I suppose.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on July 14, 2017, 04:23:41 PM
My youtube app doesn't show the dates while watching the video, but clicking on the uploader's name and viewing all uploads shows his newest video as being 6 months old.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: sirhcman on July 15, 2017, 02:49:26 AM
My youtube app doesn't show the dates while watching the video, but clicking on the uploader's name and viewing all uploads shows his newest video as being 6 months old.
He has the videos marked as unlisted so they won't show up in his video feed. The videos were uploaded/published July 11th 2017
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: xelement5x on July 26, 2017, 05:57:23 AM
Saw this elsewhere and had to repost:
(https://imgur.com/OL25P63.jpg)
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on September 17, 2017, 09:57:16 AM
With the SFII re-release on the SNES, the discussion regarding improper designed repro and flash cartridges is continuing: http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/1748/new-limited-edition-street-fighter-ii-cartridge-could-literally-burst-into-flames-or-just-ruin-your-snes
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: turboswimbz on September 17, 2017, 02:22:06 PM
With the SFII re-release on the SNES, the discussion regarding improper designed repro and flash cartridges is continuing: http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/1748/new-limited-edition-street-fighter-ii-cartridge-could-literally-burst-into-flames-or-just-ruin-your-snes
I'm guessing that a large reason that warning was there and prominent had a lot to do with the Legal department at Capcom. I think the actual possibility of fires OR damage from these things is low. However, as the wonderful Turbo Loving expert in that article points out translation could and often is a huge problem.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on September 19, 2017, 12:56:29 PM
I'm interested to see a tear down of the carts. I hope it's just old SFII with a new shell.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Winniez on September 19, 2017, 01:53:37 PM
I have never seen the big appeal of these Everdrives and similar devices, if you are not going to buy the original game the emulation for these systems from the 8- and 16bit era is so good these days. And there are adapters that lets you use the original controllers. And a flash cart sort of defeats the purpose on playing real games on a real hardware anyway. if you have the whole library at your fingertip its hard to get excited about any particular game.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on September 19, 2017, 02:16:33 PM
I don't understand when people try to dismiss flashcarts in favor of "real games" yet promote emulation. The argument that paying for real games and hardware is a waste when you can play everything for free makes much more sense.
To me, "crappy game I don't want to play" on an original cart will never be more real than the actual great games I care about. If the packaging is the main draw, then the games are not.
And if someone puts your favorite game on using real hardware, but the console is hidden from your view and you honestly can't tell while playing whether it's an original cart or a flashcart, that's because there literally is no difference.
If not having confirmation of an authentic ruins the experience for you, even if you really were playing a real cart the whole time, then your true interests are far removed from gaming.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Winniez on September 19, 2017, 03:03:14 PM
I would say the same goes for emulation, not being able to detect when playing on a proper setup. Besides I don't think its a fair comparision between a free solution and a $100 solution.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on September 19, 2017, 03:24:15 PM
I would say the same goes for emulation, not being able to detect when playing on a proper setup. Besides I don't think its a fair comparision between a free solution and a $100 solution.
A hundred dollars is nothing on the turbo. That same $100 will hardly get you anything with today's prices. Playing on real hardware with a genuine NEC controller is where it's at for me. I don't need a bunch of games cluttering up my house like some jackass on youtube. I'm about playing games on real hardware, not collecting plastic cards or boxes.
Emulation still has problems like lag, wrong colors, glitches, poor sound, etc. A raspberry pi might be the final solution one day, but right now, it still has problems. The Wii does a good job because you can at least output 240p to a CRT over YUV, but I want to turn the damn thing on and just play with the original controller which the Wii won't let me do. The Wii makes you use that stupid Wiimote and go through several menus to get to the games. And, at the end of the day, it's still not perfect.
Bottom line: Whether you use an everdrive or the original card, the game plays exactly the same. The same cannot be said for emulation.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Winniez on September 19, 2017, 03:42:49 PM
You can use a Gamecube controller with a modded Wii for emulation and as you said hook it up to a CRT with RGB. Ofcourse I would rather have the real system with Everdrive than that but it costs money. And when carefully spent $100 buys you a lot of japanese Hucards. Atleast for me part of the experience is having the actual game in a case and pulling it from the shelf to play. I'm not entirily sure about the state of PC-Engine emulation but Mednafen feels very accurate to me. For SNES Higan is pretty much perfect. With a PC there is the lag chain though.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on September 19, 2017, 04:38:20 PM
Do you want to play turbo games with a turbo controller or a GameCube controller? There is definitely something missing from that gaming experience.
Really, it's all about how you define the "gaming experience." For me, real hardware is important but original software is not. Some people think that CIB is worth significantly more than CIC because that's what they enjoy.
I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Winniez on September 19, 2017, 05:24:18 PM
I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.
I don't think I said anything like that, atleast I didn't mean to. Each to their own. Getting enjoying out of these games should be the ultimate goal whatever the aproach.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on September 20, 2017, 02:36:19 AM
I have never seen the big appeal of these Everdrives and similar devices, if you are not going to buy the original game the emulation for these systems from the 8- and 16bit era is so good these days. And there are adapters that lets you use the original controllers.
It's not an either/or type of thing. You can buy lots of real games and an everdrive to play ridiculously priced hueys, homebrew games, and translation patched titles.
And a flash cart sort of defeats the purpose on playing real games on a real hardware anyway. if you have the whole library at your fingertip its hard to get excited about any particular game.
That sounds silly. I have hundreds of real games at my fingertips, but I can still get excited.
Maybe you're getting old and need a little blue pill? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on September 20, 2017, 03:54:49 AM
Instead of more hard facts, it now says that everyone else was right about flashcarts not destroying your hardware, so go ahead and continue using them.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gredler on October 13, 2017, 01:02:27 PM
This video is terrible.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: ClodBuster on October 13, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.
Also, funny how people who know basically nothing about electronics are trying to argue with electronics engineers. I've got four years of training in electronics by myself, including time spent in an electronics repair shop for TV, radio, HiFi stuff as well as maintaining broadcast systems in hospitals and hotels.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: esteban on October 14, 2017, 03:11:33 AM
Quote
Let’s be clear that this article is NOT fear mongering, nor should the article be twisted in that way. In the article’s introduction I clearly state that I am an Everdrive user myself. There is no hidden agenda, my only intent was to inform people of a design flaw. Also, the explosion picture above is meant to represent how you should dispose of your NES and Neogeo Multicarts (not Flashcarts), after all, these are the only which I recommend to not use and to “burn”.
TL;DR
Stop using your Aliexpress multicarts, keep using your Everdrives – but know the design flaw.
This seems reasonable.
:)
Maybe I’ll load some ROMZ on an SD card and use my TED tomorrow?
Finally?
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Bloufo on October 14, 2017, 04:04:24 AM
Late to the party here. I didn't even know this was a thing.
In my case I've had that AliExpress Neo 160 something in 1 multicart for the longest time. To keep my shit intact, I need to toss it? wut. I'll live in a state of fear knowing the danger, but I'll risk it.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Black Tiger on October 14, 2017, 04:32:29 AM
Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.
Also, funny how people who know basically nothing about electronics are trying to argue with electronics engineers. I've got four years of training in electronics by myself, including time spent in an electronics repair shop for TV, radio, HiFi stuff as well as maintaining broadcast systems in hospitals and hotels.
At least you aren't mixing your educated reasoning with trolling and desperate cyber fame seeking.
dbe is in competition with krikkz, the specific product they're trying to pretend isn't relevent is something krikkz sold before dbe. Accusing your competitor of being incompetent or intentionally deceptive while lying about conflict of interest makes him guilty of what he's accusing someone else of.
Instead of simply educating people to be aware of a potential issue which history had already proven to be extremely unlikely, he went over the top to try to garner fame while taking down someone who's success he seems to be very jealous of.
He seems to only be pivoting now because of the backlash from users who have logged millions of hours on these ticking time bombs without the fear mongered results, combined with the lack of increased sales in his own products.
It's all fine and well for government scientist Dr. Yamuka to declare that science has proven that women's brain is size of squirrel's. Even if the science shows that it is theoretically likely to be true, we have billions of women in the real world who prove otherwise. That is real science that educated people value no less than theory.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 14, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
Well that just doesn’t make sense. Brain size is a nature/science thing. You can’t know it without an autopsy and a measuring tape. This is about specified ratings of human made products. You don’t need to deduce or uncover anything, just read the specs, this shit is wrong. God doesn’t give out specs, science is therefore needed.
However, pretty much everyone who’s ever built a modern flash cart just looked at that and went, “Well, the parts I need don’t exist, I can’t make them the right way, I’ll build it out of this.”
Then tons of people bought them and if there were any issues nobody noticed so it didn’t matter. Newer designs show improvement.
“Use sparingly” seems like good advice. I don’t know where all this drama bullshit comes from (it ALWAYS shows up from somewhere). It seems like The Comunity is required to pick a side and stick with it for life on every issue but there just isn’t one here unless you go looking for it. This is a learning opportunity for the whole scene.
It’s also weird how people seem to think they’re a genuine Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective because they noticed money is somehow involved, then it’s use as irrefutable evidence to prove that someone sucks...leaving aside that every console and pro console game dev house was far more profit seeking (and shifty) than any dude making stuff like this.
Late to the party here. I didn't even know this was a thing.
In my case I've had that AliExpress Neo 160 something in 1 multicart for the longest time. To keep my shit intact, I need to toss it? wut. I'll live in a state of fear knowing the danger, but I'll risk it.
Can you please live in a state of fear that doesn’t destroy perfectly good main boards with garbage just because you’re too cheap or poor to buy real games? There will always been a supply of junk to plug into a Neo but the boards are OOP.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Bloufo on October 14, 2017, 06:33:27 PM
Can you please live in a state of fear that doesn’t destroy perfectly good main boards with garbage just because you’re too cheap or poor to buy real games? There will always been a supply of junk to plug into a Neo but the boards are OOP.
I've got it plugged into a boot MV-1C. The "Gobit", or whatever it's called. Not as many as in previous years but there's still a few of those bootleg boards available in this neck of the woods.
This thing has been played solidly for quite a stretch of time, especially by the kids and their mates. And I mean heavy use. No issues.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Punch on October 15, 2017, 05:48:13 PM
Rename thread to "Kim Jong-Il threatens western gamers with flashcards of mass destruction"
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: DragonmasterDan on October 16, 2017, 12:22:49 AM
Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.
I get it, and I have no horse in this race, but that video is just lame. It's a bad video, regardless of the truth or whatever.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 16, 2017, 01:56:25 PM
Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.
I get it, and I have no horse in this race, but that video is just lame. It's a bad video, regardless of the truth or whatever.
Yeah, but you mean bad like how all gaming related videos and podcasts are basically the worst shit ever filmed, not that this particular video was bad in some unique way, right?
When I volunteered for cable access in the early 90s, all editing together city counsel meetings on SVHS in a library basement and all that, I never dreamed that what we were making would be more professional than videos in 2017 that get 200k views despite them %40 being mic noise and shadows...
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Arkhan on October 16, 2017, 02:43:22 PM
I would rather watch public access cable over the f*ckin youtube gaming shit.
Its all cringe-city, but people are making money off of it.
It's garbage.
"content creators"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1OLMe7DobU
THIS IS REAL CONTENT
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: crazydean on October 16, 2017, 02:54:33 PM
So, just don't watch what you don't like. This thread has gotten ridiculous and off topic.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Arkhan on October 16, 2017, 03:19:50 PM
So, just don't watch what you don't like. This thread has gotten ridiculous and off topic.
sometimes its ok to do something or speak out about things you don't like.
Never.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: Gredler on October 16, 2017, 10:38:02 PM
Yeah thanks for clarifying, zeta. I was just hoping that there would be a mature legitimizing video breaking everything down, rather than what they put out which to me seems unnecessary and pouty.
Title: Re: The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles
Post by: sirhcman on October 17, 2017, 02:29:15 AM