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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: Punch on July 11, 2017, 10:14:55 AM
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What kind of burning hardware and discs do you use for burning backups and/or PCE development?
I was wondering about decent CD backups lately, and one question came to mind: can burned CDs have the same (or close) quality to pressed discs? I'm pretty much speculating here but wasn't the CDR made to be fully compatible with existing CD technology?
Anyway... I was thinking about buying some Taiyo Yudens and japanese Verbatim/Mitsubishi Phono-Rs to see if I can get most of the games I don't want to pay a fortune for running OK, but based on my experience with silver MAM-As I think I'll need a decent burner, too. At least something capable of writing slower than 10x.
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I think if you want something that slow you'll have to get an old drive. Plextor stuff is pretty good, but it can be a pain to find a drive that hasn't been ran into the ground.
Also fwiw I've been using crapto Memorex cdrs for everything lately PCE, Saturn, Feka CD. Only issue I had with anything was audio dropping during the end credits of English patched Ys IV.
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Just get highly reflective bottomed silverdoodle discs.
Taiyo Yuden or Diamond Silverbacks were pretty legit.
Don't use poverty CDRs
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What kind of burning hardware and discs do you use for burning backups and/or PCE development?
I burn Taiyo Yuden silvers with Clone CD and on whatever cheap DVD-R drive came in my Dell shitbox. I think it burns as slow as 8x, but I can't say for sure if that's the limit of the discs or the drive or both. It's not gonna be easy to find discs (other than old stock) that're designed to be burnt at anything close to 1x, so I wouldn't worry about it that much.
I was wondering about decent CD backups lately, and one question came to mind: can burned CDs have the same (or close) quality to pressed discs?
They'll work, but I wouldn't say they're nearly as good as a properly made pressed disc in good condition (all bets are off if it's poorly mastered, from a shit chinese pressing house, scratched, rotting, etc.). A burned disc is less reflective, more susceptible to uv/heat/humidity/etc., and more easily damaged (there's nothing but a thin layer of lacquer covering the top side).
I'm pretty much speculating here but wasn't the CDR made to be fully compatible with existing CD technology?
Yes and no. The shorter discs (650mb or less) are compliant with red book specs, but nobody makes 'em any more and longer discs (700mb+) are non-compliant, requiring the laser to move where it was never intended to go. And in any case, CD-Rs are less reflective than a pressed disc.
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Anyone ever use those MDiscs (which supposedly have you burning the data into a super thin slice of stone). I know they make them in DVD and Bluray wonder if they make CDRs of them.
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Anyone ever use those MDiscs (which supposedly have you burning the data into a super thin slice of stone). I know they make them in DVD and Bluray wonder if they make CDRs of them.
Unfortunately it looks like they will not be making M-Disc CDs. Which is unfortunate.
From their FAQ:
Are you working on a CD version of M-Disc?
No, we don’t plan a CD version of the M-Disc. We recognize there are some customers who would like to have an M-Disc that they can play in their CD players, but this market is very small. Also, the cost of making an M-Disc CD would be essentially the same as making an M-Disc DVD, so there would be no cost advantage to an M-Disc CD. In fact, there would be a disadvantage in terms of cost per gigabyte of storage. For these reasons, we’ve concluded that the return on investment for an M-Disc CD doesn’t make sense.
http://www.mdisc.com/faq-1/
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Anyone ever use those MDiscs (which supposedly have you burning the data into a super thin slice of stone). I know they make them in DVD and Bluray wonder if they make CDRs of them.
According to Wikipedia, the M-Disc isn't any more reliable than standard DVD-Rs. Also, they're $30 for a pack of 10.
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CDRWIN is what I use to burn. I've got old Sony and Pioneer drives in my desktop, plus an old SCSI Teac that still works fine. I mainly use Verbatims, but I am rarely making CDRs for PCE stuff, and Verbatims seem to work fine with most other consoles.
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A burned disc is less reflective, more susceptible to uv/heat/humidity/etc., and more easily damaged (there's nothing but a thin layer of lacquer covering the top side).
Quite a lot of pressed discs are like this, too. The paint on top of the disc is the only top-layer protection, in many cases.
I'm pretty much speculating here but wasn't the CDR made to be fully compatible with existing CD technology?
Yes and no. The shorter discs (650mb or less) are compliant with red book specs, but nobody makes 'em any more and longer discs (700mb+) are non-compliant, requiring the laser to move where it was never intended to go. And in any case, CD-Rs are less reflective than a pressed disc.
But if you're burning a <= 650 MB image the burner should conform it to the proper readable area. Just make sure to set your compatibility settings correctly and this shouldn't be an issue.
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Quite a lot of pressed discs are like this, too. The paint on top of the disc is the only top-layer protection, in many cases.
Maybe so, but I'd say they're still more durable than a CDR. I've never had a pressed disc peel up around the edge or get a scratch through the top side from normal (non-abusive) use, and I can't say that about CDRs, even good quality brands.
But if you're burning a <= 650 MB image the burner should conform it to the proper readable area. Just make sure to set your compatibility settings correctly and this shouldn't be an issue.
Unless the laser gets lost, at which point it'll read all the way out to the end of the disc before returning to center.
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Yes and no. The shorter discs (650mb or less) are compliant with red book specs, but nobody makes 'em any more and longer discs (700mb+) are non-compliant, requiring the laser to move where it was never intended to go. And in any case, CD-Rs are less reflective than a pressed disc.
Absolutely!
IMHO, people should use 650MB CD-Rs on the PCE/TG-16, especially on briefcases with the old 1st-generation CD-ROM drive.
All PCE CD drives are early CD-ROM technology, they just don't have the drive-manufacturer's experience with handling out-of-original-spec discs like the 700MB-sized discs that pack tracks so closely together.
For those that didn't stock up on the last of the Taiyo Yuden 650MB CD-Rs, this place still sells 650MB discs ...
http://www.mam-a-store.com/silver-cd-r.html
http://www.mam-a-store.com/goldcdr.html
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Just a heads up, shipping is Fedex only so it's pretty pricey and they do charge actual shipping. I went ahead and got some dvd-rs from them as well to feel better about shipping.
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Just a heads up, shipping is Fedex only so it's pretty pricey and they do charge actual shipping. I went ahead and got some dvd-rs from them as well to feel better about shipping.
Well, a spindle of discs isn't going to be that light if you think about it, FedEx might be the cheapest route.
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USPS flat rate probably, but then again businesses get discounts if they ship enough with Fedex. Shipping was around $20 for 200 discs.
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USPS flat rate probably, but then again businesses get discounts if they ship enough with Fedex. Shipping was around $20 for 200 discs.
Dang, that is a lot!
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I have a large quantity of 650mb TY left. There is a company called CMC that claim to use the same manufacturing method and exact chemical composition as TY and they do 650 and 700 discs. Haven't tried for myself though.
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May need to acquire 650 MB discs to make sure my Duo-R lives a long life.
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There is a company called CMC that claim to use the same manufacturing method and exact chemical composition as TY and they do 650 and 700 discs. Haven't tried for myself though.
Sounds good (if true), but I can't find any 650mb discs from them, only 700mb.
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The code for a stack of 10 is jCDTY74SR-1
A 100 cake is jCDTY74SR-4
They are on jetmedia.co.uk I'm not sure what their international shipping policy is
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The code for a stack of 10 is jCDTY74SR-1
A 100 cake is jCDTY74SR-4
They are on jetmedia.co.uk I'm not sure what their international shipping policy is
Nice, 74 minute CDRs seem really expensive on the rare occasions they can still be found in the US.
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Taiyo Yuden was bought by CMC Magnetics?
RIP...
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I haven't really put much thought in the media I use. Cheap memorex disc seem to work just fine, but what about disc labeling. As far as I can see there are few options
1) Print to stick on labels, had bad luck with these in the past.
2) Lightscribe, this is what I am current using. These CD-Rs only come in 700mb but media is getting harder to find. Prints nice images right onto the disc but adds some time to making a disc.
3) Using a thermal direct to cd printer. I like this idea because I can pretty easily label already burn disc but it looks like the abilities are pretty limited.
4) Use a special inkjet printer that print right on to discs. One can find archive grade media with relative ease that is direct printable, but the hardware cost and foot print would be really hard to justify.
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I haven't really put much thought in the media I use. Cheap memorex disc seem to work just fine, but what about disc labeling. As far as I can see there are few options
1) Print to stick on labels, had bad luck with these in the past.
2) Lightscribe, this is what I am current using. These CD-Rs only come in 700mb but media is getting harder to find. Prints nice images right onto the disc but adds some time to making a disc.
3) Using a thermal direct to cd printer. I like this idea because I can pretty easily label already burn disc but it looks like the abilities are pretty limited.
4) Use a special inkjet printer that print right on to discs. One can find archive grade media with relative ease that is direct printable, but the hardware cost and foot print would be really hard to justify.
There are quite a few Canon printers that cost very little and print direct on inkjet discs. You might have to buy one from a Canadian seller as I seem to recall they have the cd printing disabled on the USA model.
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Epson I think also have printers that print to inkjet discs. I have one of the Canon ones that wasn't too expensive, and I'm in the US and it was fully enabled.
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Epson I think also have printers that print to inkjet discs. I have one of the Canon ones that wasn't too expensive, and I'm in the US and it was fully enabled.
Good stuff - the Canon is the way to go - they do really nice prints on the printable discs - especially the watershield discs.
Here is an example - white watershield (looks better with silver watershield). Dracula X translation on the left, original on the right...
(http://i.imgur.com/BfJaT8t.jpg)
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I have a basic Canon printer I got from Amazon, and I use the Amazon generic ink for it and CD prints look stunning (and I'm a pro printer.) Lost Monkey is right though, definitely get the watershield kind or the discs will be fingerprint city.
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Is watershield a brand or type of disc?
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I have a basic Canon printer I got from Amazon, and I use the Amazon generic ink for it and CD prints look stunning (and I'm a pro printer.) Lost Monkey is right though, definitely get the watershield kind or the discs will be fingerprint city.
I have a Canon printer... I hope I have similar results, because I have wanted to print a nice "Zeroigar" CD for a long time (as a prop for ledoodle, but I want it to look real). LOOKS LIKE I HAVE TO ORDER "silver watershield" stuff from l'amazonconcom....
*hope*
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Is watershield a brand or type of disc?
They are JVC Taiyo Yuden discs. Watershield is a special coating on the discs to prevent the printed colour from "running" after the fact from finger oils or liquids.
https://www.blankmedia.ca/shop/cd-ink-jet-printable/cd-r-jvc-taiyo-yuden-watershield-glossy-white-inkjet-hub-50-pcs/
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a question for those using cheapo CD-Rs: in what kind of equipment are they being used in? TG-CD/PCE Suitcase, Duo, Duo R, RX, Super CDROM2 attachment...?
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Out of the various systems I've used, my Duos weren't picky about media, I could throw any crappy CDR in them as long as it was a good burn of a proper image file. My TGCD/PCE CD drives are a lot pickier and really need the good Taiyo Yudens to read properly. I had one briefcase a while back that wouldn't read any CDR, but purred with legit discs.
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That's a pretty sexy looking reprint. I'm not necessarily looking to make something that looks professional however. Basically I just want something that's better than sharpie!
When I was at Seattle Retro Gaming Expo, there was a vendor that had a table full of PCE works reproductions that looked real legit. They were also selling them for a lot less that what PCEWorks charges direct. But I couldn't make myself pay $20 - $50 for reproduction ofs cd games, I think they where selling MegaMan for like $30. Plus I have mixed feeling about buying them, but I still picked up a couple legit games.
As far as el cheapo CD-R I have been using a Super CD-ROM2, it seems to play them the same as real discs for me.
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I'm starting to think that maybe my Duo's laser is weak and in need of a replacement. It plays perfectly with pressed discs but it's very, VERY picky about burned discs.
I'll probably need to buy the following:
1. new laser
2. oscilloscope
3. freq. counter
4. late 90's Pioneer CD burner.
If someone knows of a cheap alternative to 2 and 3 please let me know. If I recall correctly some Fluke multimeters have a frequency counter function?
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Honestly some black DUOs no matter what adjustments are made or having a new lens can sometimes have issues using CD-R discs. No one really knows why.
I don't know what brands of CD-R you have tried since I did not read the earlier posts but I find that many DUOs will work better with one brand vs another. The best over all as far as my testing is concerned has been Sony CD-R Discs. They seem to work in almost everything. I have then had mixed results with the other following brands. Memorex, Verbatim, TDK, and Taiyo Yuden. With those 4 brands it seems to be hit or miss which system will work with them. Some systems reading all and some systems only being able to handle maybe 1 or 2 of the brands.
Lightscribe, no matter what brand, is the most difficult for any game system to read. Not saying they won't work. Just saying that the chances are much lower especially with a Black DUO. Also, I can hear a considerable difference in volume of CD lens whine with lightscribe vs a non lightscribe disc.
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I'm starting to think that maybe my Duo's laser is weak and in need of a replacement. It plays perfectly with pressed discs but it's very, VERY picky about burned discs.
I'll probably need to buy the following:
1. new laser
2. oscilloscope
3. freq. counter
4. late 90's Pioneer CD burner.
If someone knows of a cheap alternative to 2 and 3 please let me know. If I recall correctly some Fluke multimeters have a frequency counter function?
If you need a scope, I have a smaller one I don't really use. Tenma 72-300A. If it would suit your needs, shoot me a message.
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I'm starting to think that maybe my Duo's laser is weak and in need of a replacement. It plays perfectly with pressed discs but it's very, VERY picky about burned discs.
I'll probably need to buy the following:
1. new laser
2. oscilloscope
3. freq. counter
4. late 90's Pioneer CD burner.
If someone knows of a cheap alternative to 2 and 3 please let me know. If I recall correctly some Fluke multimeters have a frequency counter function?
If you need a scope, I have a smaller one I don't really use. Tenma 72-300A. If it would suit your needs, shoot me a message.
It would, definitely, but the shipping $$$ would probably be more expensive than sourcing one locally. Thanks a lot for the offer though.
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An update: I actually bought a 50 disc spindle of Taiyo Yuden 650 mb discs from the Japans and, after some calibration, games run perfectly... it still gives me the problem where it goes too far on the edge of the disc but at least the laser manages to correct itself instead of doing it over and over (I feel like this might be a gear cleaning issue).
Laser calibration is not perfect (I really don't have the patience to finetune it lol) but it's obviously 250% better than regular cds. It even plays It Came From the Desert without glitching itself to death now (I feel like this is the perfect game to test lasers with, since it's streaming stuff it can crash the game anytime), even if there are some pauses during FMVs.
I need to stock up on these.
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Did you ever get the caps redone? Those also affect the lens. The replacement hopm3 lasers also seem to be a bit weaker than the originals. 650 mb discs are the way to go though.
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Did you ever get the caps redone? Those also affect the lens. The replacement hopm3 lasers also seem to be a bit weaker than the originals. 650 mb discs are the way to go though.
I think so, I bought it from Galam but he didn't remember if it was done or not. Lots of full size through hole capacitors in the board so I'm assuming yes.
Also I think I celebrated too early, Vasteel still gives me issues loading the title screen audio track at the edge of the disc. This is going to drive me nuts someday. :P I still think it might be something in the motor's thread, it has some dark stuff in it, not sure if I'm supposed to clean it off or apply more lithium grease. It kinda looks like this pic, but with less "grease" at the beggining of the rotor thing:
(http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/Rookstower/Video Games/repairs/Duo Laser Swap Guide/pce-duoswap004.jpg)
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I would clean and regrease the gears with the white lithium grease. For a long time i would get audio cutting out randomly. A regrease would do the trick. I still had a few issues for a couple years. Knew it probably had to do with the rest of the caps. Had thesteve here finish the cap replacement for me. Now all is well. I would see if someone on your side of the pond does duo cap replacements. Also i forget, did you hopefully not mess with the pots yet?
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What kind of burning hardware and discs do you use for burning backups and/or PCE development?
I was wondering about decent CD backups lately, and one question came to mind: can burned CDs have the same (or close) quality to pressed discs? I'm pretty much speculating here but wasn't the CDR made to be fully compatible with existing CD technology?
Anyway... I was thinking about buying some Taiyo Yudens and japanese Verbatim/Mitsubishi Phono-Rs to see if I can get most of the games I don't want to pay a fortune for running OK, but based on my experience with silver MAM-As I think I'll need a decent burner, too. At least something capable of writing slower than 10x.
I use standard white labeled (printable) CDROMs, burned with a standard DVD/CD drive in my win10 PC. Always burn them with max speed, never had trouble with that. Will run great on a perfectly setup CDROM2 drive.