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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: HuMan on October 21, 2017, 06:33:36 AM
Title: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: HuMan on October 21, 2017, 06:33:36 AM
Not so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
That would be my guess... But I'll let the experts here at the forum tell me otherwise if that's not the case...
This would be my guess as well. Just like at work when people ask did you run the script, did the noon run of job x complete successfully, is application x running.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 21, 2017, 08:18:51 AM
It runs the program. I don’t know what’s confusing. It isn’t a translation of anything because “run” in the computer terminology sense doesn’t get translated for the Japanese. It’s just run, or rather RUN, maybe.
If you’re asking why NEC didn’t copy every single name feature and button from the Famicom pad I’d guess either they had their own take or maybe they just didn’t want to look lame to a very important partner. The “start button” only existed on one other controller before, right? Sega didn’t have one until MD, Sony was making stereos back then, MS was just really getting into Windows, no Neo yet, etc.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on October 21, 2017, 09:01:23 PM
I remember as a kid, somebody telling me they made it Run, & the I & II buttons so they didn't get sued by Nintendo. Otherwise it'd be too close to the NES pad. By that logic, I guess the MD pad was different enough with having A B & C buttons, & no select button.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Arkhan on October 21, 2017, 11:21:56 PM
Because PCE was too fast for a walk button.
really though, because PC + run stuff = thats how it works.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Punch on October 21, 2017, 11:28:42 PM
Wish they named it CARRIAGE RETURN
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Gypsy on October 22, 2017, 02:28:11 AM
I remember as a kid, somebody telling me they made it Run, & the I & II buttons so they didn't get sued by Nintendo. Otherwise it'd be too close to the NES pad. By that logic, I guess the MD pad was different enough with having A B & C buttons, & no select button.
Its hard to imagine that working. In the US, sure, but in 1987 in Japan, maybe, unlikely.
Keeping in mind that Hudson was a hit Famicom dev and made FC controllers as well that looked exactly like FC/NEC pads it seems more likely to me that they genuinely thought it was a good design so they just stuck with the layout they had already developed for and made controllers for.
Hudson remained a Nintendo dev long after NEC got out of the business.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: turboswimbz on October 22, 2017, 01:07:18 PM
I'm I the only one who thinks ark kinda looka like Rambo. :D :dance: :lol:
We thank you for service Ark . :clap:
Keep up the good fight against the collect-a-ass-hats 8)
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: gex on October 22, 2017, 03:00:02 PM
People summoned me back to deal with idiots so I'm over here like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gro3VLXQVWo
f*ck that was funny, i messaged him after for lolzs. His views are so warped and twisted; he complains about people being mean to him, but tells people to kill themselves if they disagree with him
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Arkhan on October 22, 2017, 05:09:36 PM
yeah, its kind of pathetic that most people on FB are too wussy to just call these people out and tell them to go get cornholed by a cactus
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Necromancer on October 23, 2017, 03:11:35 AM
Why not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 23, 2017, 03:25:19 AM
I think we can put this in the same circular file as “why is the save system so “bad”?” (because it was the first ever, it was 1987).
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: NightWolve on October 23, 2017, 04:28:19 AM
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: spenoza on October 23, 2017, 06:27:07 AM
Why did Nintendo choose Start for their button. And why does that button pause the game? And why can many NES games be begun with a button other than Start? The problems with Run all begin with Start.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: hoobs88 on October 23, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
Why not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Black Tiger on October 23, 2017, 09:19:28 AM
Why not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Japanese read right to left.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Punch on October 23, 2017, 10:55:27 AM
Why not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Japanese read right to left.
Oh my God it all makes sense now, how didn't I think of that after all these years?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Necromancer on October 23, 2017, 11:14:31 AM
Do they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
I'm not sure it matters what way they go, as they're just identification labels and not something to be read, but maybe they did it backward with plans of the Ave 3, wanting the extra button nearer the center of the pad for some reason. Another question is why do buttons IV, V, and VI turn around and go the other way?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: turboswimbz on October 23, 2017, 11:50:43 AM
....... Another question is why do buttons IV, V, and VI turn around and go the other way?
I always assumed that the buttons were based on the layout of the button in relation to the board. button 1 was the first button closest and so on. but that is also arbitrary I guess . . .
IT could also simply be that Nintendo was labeled B then A. so II then I. different than Nintendo but the same. I mean you can swap out the NES pad in a mod. IT could also simply be that they wanted the action button in most cases to be labeled Earlier than the cancel button?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: HuMan on October 23, 2017, 12:51:32 PM
Do they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
Maybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: turboswimbz on October 23, 2017, 02:38:45 PM
Do they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
Maybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Yes, I have seen many books in Japanese that are right to left or vertical. I doubt those written in Japanese characters on the PC engine games are meant for English readers. :-k I am pretty sure I have seen more than one PC engine manual written left to right and not vertical or right to left. I would venture that these are written in the Yokogaki style, is simply because it looks better on screens and was easier to program on early computers and consoles, and then copied over to the manuals where it also might look better/be consistent. But I don't know enough to really say that confidently.
I wonder how many game manuals break the left to right style and are more traditional? Anyone have any ideas?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Arkhan on October 23, 2017, 06:39:07 PM
Maybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Japanese PCE manuals read left to right too.
I don't think the reading orientation is why the buttons are like that.
The Megadrive's ABC go left to right.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: gilbert on October 23, 2017, 07:40:24 PM
My understanding (i.e. random guess) is that since the outer button is more accessible to your finger, it makes sense to make that button the "main" button and the other button the errr... "other" button. This can be most apparent during decision making, that you "confirm" with the outer button and "cancel" with the inner one. So it seems natural to name the outer (main) button A/I, and the inner button B/II. It would be a bit awkward to press B to confirm and A to cancel right? (I think such games do exist though.)
However, in "western" sense it is also reasonable to have the confirm button on the left and the cancel button on the right (as seen in options of questionnaires, etc.). The problem is, when you press the buttons on a game controller it doesn't feel so well in this way.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Sparky on October 24, 2017, 12:19:34 AM
My understanding (i.e. random guess) is that since the outer button is more accessible to your finger, it makes sense to make that button the "main" button and the other button the errr... "other" button. This can be most apparent during decision making, that you "confirm" with the outer button and "cancel" with the inner one. So it seems natural to name the outer (main) button A/I, and the inner button B/II.
But in shewties and action games, it's usually the other way around. Button II is used the most for attacking and button I is only for changing weapons, dropping bombs, jumping, etc.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Arkhan on October 24, 2017, 04:40:40 AM
Japanese read right to left AND left to right, depending on context. Books are read with the pages going right to left, and manga additionally with a right to left flow, but most lines of text are read left to right if horizontal. The are read top to bottom, and then the columns read right to left if vertical.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Keith Courage on October 24, 2017, 09:32:42 AM
because a "walk" button doesn't sound edgy enough.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: spenoza on October 24, 2017, 09:50:41 AM
I need to read more carefully. I almost read that as 'a "wank" button'.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: NightWolve on October 25, 2017, 03:41:56 PM
Not so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
Not so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: esteban on December 08, 2017, 01:23:22 PM
Actually, it’s the “RUN” button, you f*cking heathens.
Get with the program.
Title: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: CZroe on December 27, 2017, 01:24:32 PM
They wanted something that means the same thing as “Start” but didn’t want to anger Nintendo by copying too much. A & B became I & II, Start became Run, the trademark D-pad became a floating disc, etc. This seemed pretty obvious to me at the time (yes, I’m old).
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: gilbert on December 27, 2017, 04:33:24 PM
Of course that's the main reason, but I think the concern in this thread is that why is it RUN, not BEGIN, GO, PLAY or other similar words that consumers (at that time) would more likely understand. The use of I and II (or 1 and 2) is obvious and logical, but not RUN, apparently. It is quite possible that as NEC itself was a major computer manufacturer (not to mention that Hudson itself wrote implementations of BASIC on various 8-bit computers, that included Family Basic on the Famicom; too bad its sorta equivalent on the PCE, the Tsushin Booster (http://www.chrismcovell.com/TsushinBooster/), got canned), so they're in the mindset of "running" or "executing" programmes, and indeed it was a time where BASIC was a prominent programming language on home computers, so there were at least people who were familiar with "RUNning" their BASIC programmes.
Anyway, this (alongside the not-so-fortunate truth of having only one controller port) became one of the most well-known characteristics on the system.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: CZroe on December 27, 2017, 05:11:19 PM
Of course that's the main reason, but I think the concern in this thread is that why is it RUN, not BEGIN, GO, PLAY or other similar words that consumers (at that time) would more likely understand. The use of I and II (or 1 and 2) is obvious and logical, but not RUN, apparently. It is quite possible that as NEC itself was a major computer manufacturer (not to mention that Hudson itself wrote implementations of BASIC on various 8-bit computers, that included Family Basic on the Famicom; too bad its sorta equivalent on the PCE, the Tsushin Booster (http://www.chrismcovell.com/TsushinBooster/), got canned), so they're in the mindset of "running" or "executing" programmes, and indeed it was a time where BASIC was a prominent programming language on home computers, so there were at least people who were familiar with "RUNning" their BASIC programmes.
Anyway, this (alongside the not-so-fortunate truth of having only one controller port) became one of the most well-known characteristics on the system.
"Run" *is* a similar word that consumers understood at the time. In that context it seems a little Engrish but no more so than "Enter/Return," or "Escape" on a PC keyboard.
When I "run" my car I kinda have to "Start" it first, right? ;) When I "run" to the store I kinda have to "Start" my trip, right? ;) When I "run" a story in a newspaper, I kinda have to "Start" publishing it, right? ;) Wen I "run" a campaign, I kinda have to start the campaign, right? When I "run" a game, I kinda have to "Start" the game. Same thing. "Start" is understood to be "Start and Run." "Run" is also understood to be "Start and Run."
If anything, "Select" is more Engrish than "Run," since it changes your selection rather than making/confirming your selection. IOW, Select does not "Select" your selection. Run, on the other hand, does "Run" your selection.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: gilbert on December 27, 2017, 07:29:31 PM
While "run" has its frequent usage in English (like "run a business", as the numerous examples you provided) I think it's less common for a Japanese/Asian consumer to come across it in non-computer terms though, back in the late 80's, where home computers were not as common. For them(me) the word was more associated with er... "traveling on your feet but not walking" or starting a computer programme. I think it's actually not related with it being Engrish or not, but whether the original target consumers were familiar with it or not.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: CZroe on December 28, 2017, 08:03:52 AM
I dunno. Seems that they have a handle on the meaning better than many English-speakers if any of us are confused about their usage. ;) Their use makes perfect sense, even in English. “Run” also means “Operate,” “Go,” and “Execute.” It has for decades before electronic computers existed and that’s why the meaning already existed for use in computer terminology. We didn’t invent the meaning along with computer programming.
Is your refrigerator running? No? I guess it’s operating then. ;)
The same button became a play button on PlayStation, even if that’s not what the label says. “Start,” “Play,” and “Run” are just different words that all mean the same thing in that context. Run means to operate, advance, activate, execute, start, extend, etc.
When I “run a bath,” it means I start preparations to bathe by running water to fill the tub. It’s the same meaning of the word as the PCE/TG16 controller intends. We were expected to understand it the same way.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Necromancer on December 28, 2017, 08:20:30 AM
Y'all know how they loved trains, right? Maybe it's from choo-choos - trains run on time; they run on tracks, usually consisting of two running rails; specific routes are known as runs; etc.
<< insert joke about running a train on Princess Misa here >>
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: johnnykonami on December 28, 2017, 10:23:31 AM
LOAD "*",8,1 SEARCHING FOR * LOADING READY. RUN
Title: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: esteban on December 29, 2017, 12:09:55 AM
You can't RUN away from BLODIA (or maybe you can?):
I just tried that on my C64. Looks like my disk drive is out of alignment again. :(
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Winniez on January 05, 2018, 07:44:52 AM
Didn't bother to read the whole thread, and I'm sure its already been mentioned but it has to be a reference to computers as the name PC-Engine was. At the time NES was aging and games on various computers were seen as way more advanced, I'm sure NEC as a computer manufacturer wanted to bring that point home.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: ds1724 on February 13, 2018, 04:30:59 AM
I remember when I was a kid, before I had a TG-16, I thought it was cool that the controller actually had a button to make the character run!! I remember everyone being intrigued by the Turbo but nobody had one. I eventually did though in maybe 8th grade.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: CZroe on February 14, 2018, 01:07:43 PM
Super Nt menu has the option to “Run Cartridge.”
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: lukester on February 19, 2018, 09:08:16 AM
Run button lets you run away from the genesis.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 19, 2018, 05:21:51 PM
WTF, this is still being debated?
Everyone who ever used a computer in the 80s knew the term RUN, including Japanese since BASIC only exists in English. NEC is a computer company...end of f*cking story, sheesh.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Groover on February 23, 2018, 05:58:20 AM
Everyone who ever used a computer in the 80s knew the term RUN, including Japanese since BASIC only exists in English. NEC is a computer company...end of f*cking story, sheesh.
Agreed. Also the system is called a PC Enigne. Run is a PC ommand. Not a huge leap. Start button was still a relatively new thing.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: Punch on February 23, 2018, 07:25:56 AM
Let's remind ourselves that "Start" and "Select" has as little meaning as "Run". "Start" still starts games but it's more of a "Pause" button more than anything nowadays... "Select" however already lost all meaning since you're not selecting difficulty or game modes as in SMB or Contra which had you pushing select to choose 1P/2P, nor anything for that matter, there's no selection menu in which you use that button to toggle options.
Title: Re: Why a "Run" button?
Post by: SignOfZeta on February 23, 2018, 08:05:02 AM