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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: sunteam_paul on October 28, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
Title: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 28, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
I've been playing a bit of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night recently and wondered how the PC Engine would handle the graphics, so I did this quick test.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/fa0sas.png)
Not too bad, it would suffer a lot from the reduced palette but I think it would certainly handle it well.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: wildfruit on October 29, 2017, 03:41:03 AM
Looks good. Could the red carpet be a different red?
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 29, 2017, 04:03:44 AM
I didn't really fine tune it so I'm sure it could be even better with a bit more effort.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 29, 2017, 05:17:43 AM
I think there’s a lot more to “handle” in SotN.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Digi.k on October 29, 2017, 05:20:42 AM
might struggle a lot with some of those fancy transparencies and 3D poly effects. Might be able to get it up and running using ARCADE card or a 4000megabit hucard :o (not an accurate assumption)!
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 29, 2017, 05:54:08 AM
You might be able to reduce load times to where they aren’t much worse than the PS version if you had the AC but it isn’t going to do much else for you. The audio is going to absolutely suck by comparison, for example.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: sunteam_paul on October 29, 2017, 07:24:17 AM
Of course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 29, 2017, 08:49:25 AM
Sprite sheets don’t contain FX, and that’s the thing about a 32 bit machine from 1994. Not only does it do everything a SNES can do (scaling, rotation, audio FX) it has lighting FX, polygons, texture maps...not to mention 24 channels of ADPCM...kinda hard to get the mystique of SotN with only one scratchy-ass sample at a time.
You could hack Alucard’s castle into Rondo, I’ll give you that. :)
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Michirin9801 on October 29, 2017, 09:40:31 AM
Looks fine, but I'd rather see Castlevania Rebirth on the PCE...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on October 29, 2017, 06:37:40 PM
because porting a retro throwback to a vintage console is an oxymoron.
are we about to get in an infinite loop here.
Tell that to the people who want to see Shovel Knight on the NES... But I don't see anything wrong with either...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: ClodBuster on October 29, 2017, 11:50:39 PM
Good job on that one Screencap, Paul.
Other than that, I think the one Castlevania that the PCE got was just as good as it can get.
Super Castlevania, Bloodlines, Symphony, Rondo and Rebirth seem to me be perfect matches for each console hardware they've been released on. Super wouldn't be the same without the silly Mode 7 shenanigans and the farting SPC trumpets. Bloodlines pulls some graphical tricks out of the then aging Genesis you wouldn't expect from it. Symphony is a great amalgamation of smooth animation, rotation/scaling effects and a good soundtrack. Rebirth's fantastic Arcade Konami style synth music would be pretty hard to replicate faithfully on 90s console hardware without going for redbook audio. And talking of Rondo, you guys all know well enough how it turned out when being ported to the SNES.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on October 30, 2017, 05:59:39 AM
The reflecty water stuff in Bloodlines kicks ass.
I'd like to see Simon's Quest for PCE with some slight tweaks to make it less annoying.
If you fix the text a little, tweak the heart-grinding, and maybe add some more action to the mansions, it would be great.
like, add bosses instead of just stabbing bowling balls with sticks to finish the mansion.
And make it so you can't f*ckING DIE IN THE TOWNS IF YOU FALL IN THE WATER.
That was pretty stupid of them.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: exodus on October 30, 2017, 11:32:03 AM
Castlevania Adventure Rebirth is hard to call a throwback - it's a completely new game that uses a similar name, and some similar enemies to the GB game. It's also extremely good! So I'm not sure where this is coming from :P
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on October 30, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
How is it hard to call it a throwback?
That's literally what it is. lol
Completely new game on new platform, calling back to the old days.
Throwback.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: turboswimbz on October 30, 2017, 03:14:33 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/1y9pyi.jpg)
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: spenoza on October 30, 2017, 03:32:45 PM
They are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Windcharger on November 01, 2017, 12:58:44 AM
Of course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.
Indeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"! :lol: (Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience. :wink:)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/34rg3gk.png)
Anyway... The image in the middle is the PSX original, and to the left is what happens when you try to approximate the PSX's palette as closely as possible on the PCE. As you can see it's interesting, but a bit drab with lots of loss of color information and detail. The image on the right is what the PCE's palette could do when tweaked a bit for artistic effect to leverage the system's palette strengths, namely using high contrast to your advantage and keeping a majority of the important colors in the middle shades to offer the most surrounding color choices.
I think it's a pretty neat effect...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SiberianSpForces on November 01, 2017, 03:37:56 AM
They are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.
SotN was also retro.
No it wasn't. Retro implies you're making a deliberate attempt to throwback. Like Johnny Rockets.
Sotn was just "the next game in the series, made like we've been doing this whole time."
That'd be like saying the latest RCA TV at the time was retro because it's kinda like the 20 year older one, but with nicer knobs/frame.
people just equate all this old stuff to being retro when it's not. Rebirth was retro.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: nopepper on November 01, 2017, 07:21:12 AM
This is pretty neat, but PCE already has a kick ass Castlevania game, so I'd rather see a different franchise get the port treatment.
And to the peeps who are porting Shovel Knight to NES, the question is, why the NES?!? Is it just because of a bigger audience and it's Nintendo? Because that game would fit a million times better on the PCE, with its "fake" parallax and all.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2017, 07:41:30 AM
Its because the game was basically a hopped up NES throwback, and that's what the plebs want
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: spenoza on November 01, 2017, 08:19:36 AM
If you're going to throw back to an older platform, you're more likely to do it to a popular one. Maybe you missed the 90s, but our platform of choice wasn't very popular in the West back then.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: nopepper on November 01, 2017, 11:32:05 AM
If you're going to throw back to an older platform, you're more likely to do it to a popular one. Maybe you missed the 90s, but our platform of choice wasn't very popular in the West back then.
What?!? The NES was more popular than the Turbo? No way!!
I totally understand why developers would want to port a high profile game, such as Shovel Knight, to the hardware that inspired its development, and a hardware that is ostensibly synonymous with retro gaming. But really, Shovel Knight is way too much NES on steroids, so I reckon it'll have to be heavily compromised. Instead, the devs could still have gone old school, put it in vintage hardware that fits the game almost perfectly, press some Super CDs and probably still get an audience. If anything, it probably, much to the chagrin of a lot here, bring more fans into the PCE/Turbo world.
But that's the romantic in me writing this, as I know it will never happen, as the Turbo is just way too niche.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: exodus on November 01, 2017, 11:47:02 AM
They are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.
SotN was also retro.
yeah - I mean if you're saying adventure rebirth adhered to an older aesthetic on a new platform, so too did SOTN. It sure wasn't all 3D with the newest bells and whistles! I have a pet peeve where "gamers" in general think anything pixel is retro or a throwback (not necessarily saying this is happening here, but that's what got me going).
adventure rebirth takes all the things learned from those prior eras - about sound design, animation, jumps, snappiness, colors, and level design, and pushes it further in a new direction. to me it was taking an old concept forward, rather than looking back and trying to emulate the past. I'd say a throwback emulates the past, but adventure rebirth evolves it, or at least attempts to.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2017, 12:17:05 PM
The difference being that SOTN continued the trend like tons of games did on PSX even though 3D was available.
Sprite based games were still normal on that machine.
Rebirth on the other hand, came from a time where 3D took over and 2D started to finally come back.
Hence the name rebirth.
It's definitely a throwback, or a retro game. Pick whichever word. It's just a really well done one.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: nopepper on November 01, 2017, 12:28:32 PM
I don't think SOTN was deliberately trying to be a callback to old games. On the contrary, it meant to woo players with its fancy effects and pixel art. The graphics and music were as much of a selling point as the new Metroid-like approach to level design. It in no way meant to convey "old" within its design. Hell, I'm not sure Sony would have let it be published in the US if it was...
The whole Rebirth series' shtick, OTOH, is exactly to celebrate the old with new games.
BTW, I just started playing Gradius Rebirth and holy shit is the music awesome (and the game is pretty good as well). I went to look at who composed it and it was none other than Manabu Namiki, which did not surprise me at all, as I seem to enjoy everything he does.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 01, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
To me SotN felt Retro because at that time getting anything on US PlayStation that was 2D was pretty rare, thanks to the a$$holes running the place at the time.
However it’s not like they had already gone 3D and went back to 2D. The previous game was Rondo, right? And SotN was a very clear evolution of that. The PCE game had stuff a FC couldn’t do, the PS game did stuff the PCE couldn’t do, seems less logical to me.
However, honestly, even when Rondo came out it felt pretty Retro with its wooden as hell controls. Post Sonic or whatever the game felt real old fashioned. Nobody else was locked to a staircase like that or getting juggled by frogmen. By 1993 it was all about speed and control in the more popular platformers.
So kinda both, IMHO.
Are Shin Shinobi Den and Psychic Assassin Taromaru Retro? They are from the same time period but different. Taromaru probably looks that way because the guys couldn’t figure out polygons but Sega obviously could and yet theirs is the lesser game of the three by a mile.
I think back in 1995 or whether there were still loads of guys in Japan still trying to make the perfect 16-bit game and were overjoyed to try it on a way bigger machine and that’s where this stuff comes from. That wouldn’t be Retro really, just stubborn/out of touch.
For it to be Retro it has to be done on purpose. “I’m making this game that pretends it’s old.” I don’t think SotN was that...but it was a little, let’s be honest.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: nopepper on November 01, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Developers at the time were going for anything that was "next gen", so anything fresh, cool and exciting was the philosophy. They knew that if it felt old, everyone would accuse their game of being 16bit-ish (as a derogatory term).
I think all 3 games you mention were trying to accomplish this, using different approaches. Shinobi went for digitized graphics and FMV cut scenes, Taromaru went for lots of polygonal backgrounds and SOTN went for an elegant mesh of PSX next gen hardware abilities. Out of those 3, I would say Taromaru is the only one that was perhaps deliberately old school, as it seems the one that is trying the less to impress. Heck, perhaps Shinobi as well, since Sega didn't seem to know what the hell they were doing back then. But I still feel like SOTN was meant to impress and not harken back to the old, other than it being mainly sprite based 2D.
Thankfully, as you stated, Konami was stubborn and perhaps confident enough in the power of the Castlevania franchise, to use it as a way to show the world that next gen didn't necessarily mean going 3D.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 01, 2017, 01:54:58 PM
Well, they try 3D, it just sucks dogs balls.
But I agree, the success of SotN is probably why we got so many good GBA CV games and why the series exists at all today. Lots of series/genres were dying at that time (the other two games I mentioned...) but this one lived.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: saturndual32 on November 01, 2017, 02:18:30 PM
Of course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.
Indeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"! :lol: (Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience. :wink:)
I like the way you think... but at what point do you get to port the Arcade Contras to the PCE? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 01, 2017, 03:02:57 PM
Who’s brave enough to make a tate only release?
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Michirin9801 on November 01, 2017, 04:14:25 PM
And to the peeps who are porting Shovel Knight to NES, the question is, why the NES?!? Is it just because of a bigger audience and it's Nintendo? Because that game would fit a million times better on the PCE, with its "fake" parallax and all.
I don't think there's anyone porting Shovel Knight to the NES, it's just that I hear a lot of people saying stuff like: "I wanna see this game on the real NES" or something like that...
Oh and, you'd probably need at least a Saturn in order to do a perfect port of Shovel Knight, and even that one wouldn't be in wide-screen... And it's not because of the assets or animations, those could probably work fine on the PC engine, except for maybe some of the bigger sprites which are still a little too smoothly animated, no, it's because of the layers upon layers of overlapping Parallax Scrolling in every single stage, and of the 8 channel soundtrack not counting sound effects (which could just be on CD or maybe be re-arranged on the PCE's PSG which would probably sound even better anyway) There are also a ton of little effects too, particularly in the text, that would easily take up too many sprites in order to reproduce...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 01, 2017, 05:50:59 PM
You would have zero trouble funding a NES port of Shovel Knight, THEREFORE it could be easily done.
It might look like Double Dragon 2600 but...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Michirin9801 on November 01, 2017, 07:14:06 PM
Either that, or you put the entire hardware inside of the cartridge and have the NES provide only the power and the input, and thus making you have to have a cable sticking out from your cartridge and connecting it to the TV, therefore completely defeating the purpose of "porting" it to the NES...
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: BigusSchmuck on November 02, 2017, 03:17:03 AM
To me SotN felt Retro because at that time getting anything on US PlayStation that was 2D was pretty rare, thanks to the a$$holes running the place at the time.
However it’s not like they had already gone 3D and went back to 2D. The previous game was Rondo, right? And SotN was a very clear evolution of that. The PCE game had stuff a FC couldn’t do, the PS game did stuff the PCE couldn’t do, seems less logical to me.
However, honestly, even when Rondo came out it felt pretty Retro with its wooden as hell controls. Post Sonic or whatever the game felt real old fashioned. Nobody else was locked to a staircase like that or getting juggled by frogmen. By 1993 it was all about speed and control in the more popular platformers.
So kinda both, IMHO.
Are Shin Shinobi Den and Psychic Assassin Taromaru Retro? They are from the same time period but different. Taromaru probably looks that way because the guys couldn’t figure out polygons but Sega obviously could and yet theirs is the lesser game of the three by a mile.
I think back in 1995 or whether there were still loads of guys in Japan still trying to make the perfect 16-bit game and were overjoyed to try it on a way bigger machine and that’s where this stuff comes from. That wouldn’t be Retro really, just stubborn/out of touch.
For it to be Retro it has to be done on purpose. “I’m making this game that pretends it’s old.” I don’t think SotN was that...but it was a little, let’s be honest.
I agree. To some of us who remember the 90s for the Playstation, it was all about pushing those damn polygons. 1997 was no different.
I'd like to see Simon's Quest for PCE with some slight tweaks to make it less annoying.
If you fix the text a little, tweak the heart-grinding, and maybe add some more action to the mansions, it would be great.
like, add bosses instead of just stabbing bowling balls with sticks to finish the mansion.
And make it so you can't f*ckING DIE IN THE TOWNS IF YOU FALL IN THE WATER.
That was pretty stupid of them.
I would take it a step further, fix the f*cking endings, put in some Super Castlevania whip moves, fix the broken Engrish and you would have a decent Metroidvania game.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Black Tiger on November 02, 2017, 03:35:11 PM
Here's some of the SotN inspired stuff that's in Henshin Engine.
Only the extra background details of the building in the courtyard was cut, in order to allow dual layer parallax (and that brazier flame was a temp for mockups). Every section of the Castlevampire stage has "dual layer" style parallax, including the boss room.
The simplified and more tiled look was intentional to try to use as few (16 x 16 pixel) tiles as possible, because of the restrictions of HuC, not the limitations of PC Engine hardware.
Indeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"! :lol: (Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience. :wink:)
I like the way you think... but at what point do you get to port the Arcade Contras to the PCE? :mrgreen:
Hehe, thanks! Oh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!? :shock: I remember back in the day early rumors and preview information on Dracula X had it billed as a remake of the original Castlevania on NES (at least according to GameFan iirc) and what we got instead was pure art in motion. The prospect of getting a "Contra X" boggles the mind... and I'm sure it would have been left in Japan too... :roll:
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Michirin9801 on November 05, 2017, 08:40:32 AM
Oh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!?
That would have been great! But I think Contra on the PCE would have been just as great even if it was just on HuCard, I mean, imagine that soundtrack on the PCE PSG ;3 The SCC proves that Konami knew how to work with wavetables~
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Black Tiger on November 05, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
Oh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!?
That would have been great! But I think Contra on the PCE would have been just as great even if it was just on HuCard, I mean, imagine that soundtrack on the PCE PSG ;3 The SCC proves that Konami knew how to work with wavetables~
They certainly were capable, but they didn't use anyone who could/would do something special for their PCE chiptunes.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: spenoza on November 05, 2017, 12:48:14 PM
Konami’s PCE chiptunes are definitely competent, but not technically spectacular the way their laTer NES tunes were, with the exception on Parodius. On the NES Konami was big on sampled percussion, yet only Parodius appears to do this on the PCE.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Zero_Gamer on November 05, 2017, 12:52:47 PM
When it comes to NES, I'm a sunsoft tunes man myself.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Mathius on November 05, 2017, 01:05:31 PM
Konami’s PCE chiptunes are definitely competent, but not technically spectacular the way their laTer NES tunes were, with the exception on Parodius. On the NES Konami was big on sampled percussion, yet only Parodius appears to do this on the PCE.
The NES and MSX got all of Konami's chiptune juice for whatever reason. I still prefer the NES soundtrack to Life Force over PCE's Salamander PSG. Sunsoft's PCE development team was laughably small yet they still did great tunes unique to the Engine. It's a mystery why Konami didn't put in the same effort.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on November 05, 2017, 01:27:04 PM
It's interesting that in some cases, the Konami SCC version of songs sound better than the PCE ones.
Salamander being the prime example. The PC Engine soundtrack is f*cking weak by comparison.
just listen to Stage 1 on both:
The PCE one's percussion is "technically better" in that it's samples... but it completely lacks the percussive snap of the MSX one and sounds pretty weak.
The leads on the PCE are also a mixed bag of "what the f*ck is going on here", and it's not mixed particularly well.
They did more with less on the MSX. It's confusing, honestly.
On MSX, they TECHNICALLY had 2 more channels (SCC is 5 channels, plus 3 PSG channels). That gives you extras with shades of gray since 3 are goony PSG channels that end up being for SFX or combined for percussion.
But, they had no panning options. They can also only use 4 unique voices vs. the PCE's 6.
The only thing the SCC does that PCE doesn't, is that the waveforms (IIRC), while still 32 bytes, are actual 8bit values, whereas PCE is 5bit.
At least they got their shit together for Parodius.
The MSX Contra soundtrack isn't that fantastic either.
I think I would prefer a CD soundtrack for Contra, something akin to what they did with HardCorps.
I actually enjoyed the Legacy of War soundtrack on PS1 alot, too. It was pretty ambient at times. Too bad the game itself was so clumsy.
I remember Contra Adventure being pretty OK too... and the game itself being pretty not OK.
what I am getting at is, a CD soundtrack might be good.
Just use Vomitron's soundtrack, or the other metal OCRemix stuff, lol
hell f*cking yeah.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Michirin9801 on November 05, 2017, 02:03:09 PM
Yeah true, Konami's PSG soundtracks on the PCE weren't their best, I was mostly thinking of their SCC tunes when I commented that... Which as we've seen from ccovell's recent music disk, translate pretty well onto the PCE!
But seriously, if converted by the right person, the Contra soundtrack could sound pretty great on the PCE PSG!
(Don't look at me, if I am to do some Konami music I'll do more Twinbee...)
Which as we've seen from ccovell's recent music disk, translate pretty well onto the PCE!
as they should, since, aside from the 5/8bit difference, the PCE can do all of the same stuff, and more, lol.
The Snatcher soundtrack on PCE CD wasn't that great either compared to the MSX equivalents. Snatcher on MSX had the SCC+ though. That gave it more ram, and each channel could have it's own waveform.
Sometimes the PCE one was OK compared to MSX for it, but it's still really weird how the MSX versions seem to be overall, better soundtracks for all of the games.
Squirrel and the overall MML setup for it was partially inspired by MusicA on MSX, and the fact that it supported SCC and proved it was a functional setup for making music for games.
It sucks the PCE doesn't have a keyboard though, because I would totally revive the OLDDDD version of Squirrel player that stored MML strings in memory and parse/played, to give some sort of "live fiddling" capabilities.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Mathius on November 05, 2017, 03:47:42 PM
Speaking of Snatcher I rate the PSG in the game dead last. I've not heard the SCC versions, but compared to the Mega CD Snatcher's sections with chiptunes the PCE chiptunes sound horrible. I've tried to hear something in the PCE version to endear itself to me but it hasn't happened yet.
Title: Re: SOTN on PC Engine
Post by: Arkhan on November 05, 2017, 05:37:19 PM
Speaking of Snatcher I rate the PSG in the game dead last. I've not heard the SCC versions, but compared to the Mega CD Snatcher's sections with chiptunes the PCE chiptunes sound horrible. I've tried to hear something in the PCE version to endear itself to me but it hasn't happened yet.
You can sometimes catch nice moments in some of the tunes mostly because the leads are nice and warm. The Neo Kobe christmas tune is OK!
but it's pretty f*ckin limp overall. The f*ckin dope intro CD music should have just been there for the whole game. That stuff ruled. f*ckin cyberpunk saxophone sexrock.
I think the MSX one is overall the nicest soundtrack for that game. The Megadrive one sometimes sounds pretty cool and SciFi, but it's also kinda wonky. I'm too used to the MSX one.
That little jingle at the start when it splashes the text about cyberpunkers is pretty cool. I don't recall it in the PCE or Megadrive ones.