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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Tatsujin on November 20, 2006, 04:12:23 PM
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how's the relation between the PC Engine and the NEC PC-88/98 computers in point of hardware issues? do they have some familiar parts or are they really different kind of systems? may the PC-98 have some resemblances in the hardware architecuters as i believe. in matter of fact, that the PC Engine originally was a showpiece only, to exhibit the power of NEC grafic custom-chipsets, i'd think that NEC also was using those HuC2xx chips in other hardware after or before the release of the PCE.
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Good question. I have no clue about PC-88/98's hardware, but it would be interesting to find out the similarities it shares with the PCE. Also, I didn't know PCE was originally a showpiece item, that's very interesting!
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The PC 89/98 are PC systems that intel code compatible CPUs - probably the NEC V20(8088),V30,V40, etc. It had a custom video card and sound card. It doesn't share anything in common with the PC Engine. The PC 89/98 is more like Tandys PC line - a PC clone with small differences.
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Also, I didn't know PCE was originally a showpiece item, that's very interesting!
once a long time ago i read a very early report about the development of the pc engine. in advance NEC didn't plan to release an own video game system, they only liked to show the ability and power of their own grafic custom-chips, so they decided to create a kind of prototype or breadboard construction with those chipsets only for demo purposes at exibitions etc. i also read in this report, that already a demo of r-type was existing as well as running on that proto, because it was by far the top-notch videogame in grafical aspects at that time in the arcades, and also well known by everbody. since the media and presse was completely thrilled out by its capability, they started to think about a possible success of an own video game.
in matter of fact, NEC viewed as a very very big electronic concern never was taking much attention about the developement of the PC Engine since it was a niche-product only for them.
the developement of all those infinite PCE gadgets anyway just served for some market-feasibility studies of their own technical inventions, also used in consumer and industrial itmes (notebooks, PCs, graphics card, screens etc).
i don't know if all this is true, but considering to the bigness of NEC as a whole concern absolutely possible.
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Thanks for the info, that was a great read.
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but no guarantee for its correctness O:)
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True, but it's interesting; correct or not :) .
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Remember that PC-8801 and PC-9801 are different computers - they are not compatible with each other. There are hybrid models with a switch to choose either PC-8801 or PC-9801 modes, but that's it. PC-8801 software won't run on a PC-9801 and vice versa.
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indeed it is :)
very interessting would be a interview with some of the main developer and planer of the system who were in charge at that time. does someone know any names of important peole involved in the "Project Engine" at NEC?
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It had a custom video card and sound card. It doesn't share anything in common with the PC Engine.
could it be, that exactly this custom video card could have some similarities to the HuC6270? or is it absolutely impossible?
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The PC Engine was more or less designed by Hudson. That's why those chips are labeled Huxx. As I understand it they first went to Nintendo to have it build, but they weren't interested. This is according to the book Game Over. NEC only entered the console biz because of Hudson. You can see how well they did without them afterwards (not well at all)
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yes..you're right. but the chipset and everything related was made and manufactured by NEC, yes? anyway, hudson had its name in the gamebiz, which NEC didn't have (beside of gaming on their PC88/98 systems). so NEC had to find a good and well known reference partner to bring the system on the market and which also will be able to support the system with a lot of unique inhouse products/softs. that was Hudson. but of course, hudson had a voice to design the hardware in a way you will get a powerfull as well as fun bringing gamesystem (but why in the hell they never decided to spend it a 2nd joy-port :lol:)
but i don't know on which time exactly NEC met Hudson to arrange their joint venture, since NEC wasn't a game-software developer at that time. would be also interessting to know.
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Hudson holds the patents for the Huc6260, HuC62780, and HuC 6280. NEC is not mentioned anywere on the patents. As far as I know, none of the PC 89/98 systems used a variant of the HuC6270.
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Hudson holds the patents for the Huc6260, HuC62780, and HuC 6280. NEC is not mentioned anywere on the patents. As far as I know, none of the PC 89/98 systems used a variant of the HuC6270.
That's right, and as far as I know, Hudson didn't do anything for either the PC-8801 or the PC-9801. No hardware, no software.
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how's the relation between the PC Engine and the NEC PC-88/98 computers in point of hardware issues?
There is no relation. Hudson was already designing electronic devices since the early '70s before joining efforts with NEC in 1987. The PC Engine is entirely designed by Hudson with Hudson components (derived from MOS Tech designs). It's certainly not a NEC showcase since the PC-98's graphic chipset you're talking about (uPD7220) was designed by NEC and is not related to Hudson's HuC6270. The PC Engine was just a good opportunity for NEC HE to set foot in the consumer gaming market, and Hudson provided the blueprints.
Seldane, Hudson was very much involved in the PC-88 library. They released more than 80 titles between 1982 and 1987, before they start developing games for their own system (this long-time partnership certainly helped them in selling their console to NEC).
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but why in the hell they never decided to spend it a 2nd joy-port :lol:
Because the vast majority of games are digital comics, RPGs, and simulations that require only 1 player.
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I always assumed it only had one controller port to help maintain the small size, and partly for the reason rolins mentioned, and also probably as a small money scam.
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thank you for all those informations. that's very interessting and i didn't know about all that. so one of my main question is, who was the initiator of the "project PCE"? and why Hudson went to NEC as a partner, since they designed and developed all them self? what was the main task on NEC side?
:EDIT:
kaminari already clarified some of my questions above. thanx.
@kaminari: btw, where you come from? :)
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but why in the hell they never decided to spend it a 2nd joy-port :lol:
Because the vast majority of games are digital comics, RPGs, and simulations that require only 1 player.
oh yes, for sure.
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but why in the hell they never decided to spend it a 2nd joy-port :lol:
Because the vast majority of games are digital comics, RPGs, and simulations that require only 1 player.
That was certainly not the case in 1987. Action games were the priority at first, and that includes Bomberman.
I would say that they wanted the extra money, and also they wanted a 5 player focus. Making the system super small (which was a really "cool" thing to do with electronics in in 1980s Japan...still is) was probably a factor as well, but to a lesser extent.
I wouldn't be surprised if NEC had a part in that choice. They clearly loved making hardware. Just look at all of the (expensive) PCE products they released.
As for why Hudson went to NEC...its pretty simple. NEC is a mega huge electronics company with loads of factories, and experience, etc. It was probably a situation where either they could go with NEC, or they could attempt to raise the hundreds of millions of yen it would take to build a PC Engine factory (probably not an option). As I said, they tried Nintendo first, but they weren't turned on by the PCE.
Nowadays it would be simpler to just send the plans to a Chinese company and have them make it, but this was in the 80s before the Europeans, and the Japanese turned the Chinese and Mexicans into our $1 a day slaves. Things were still made in Japan by workers who earned a living wage.
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so NEC really was just the producer/manufacturer of the hardware and nothing else. so why Hudson was kept in the background concerned the name of its really inventor? so normal user/customer never did recogonized, that hudson was involved in the developmenet of the PC Engine to almost 100%. was this an agreement with NEC to decrease the manufacturing costs?
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so NEC really was just the producer/manufacturer of the hardware and nothing else. so why Hudson was kept in the background concerned the name of its really inventor? so normal user/customer never did recogonized, that hudson was involved in the developmenet of the PC Engine to almost 100%. was this an agreement with NEC to decrease the manufacturing costs?
They weren't really kept that far in the background, IMO. My Duo's boot up screen does say "copyright Hudson" on it. The games are sold on "HuCards", etc. I guess they are somewhat in the background since the machine has "NEC" molded in the plastic and not "Hudson". I'm not sure how much work NEC did, but I have a feeling they designed the case, etc. They deserve something as the whole deal, apparently it couldn't have happened without them. If they wanted to be true dicks that would have put their name on all of Hudson's software.
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Interesting topic. So was the cd rom drive different than the one used with the PC Engine?
(http://www.m1sz1.com/album/data/media/30/8801mc00.jpg)
(http://www.m1sz1.com/album/data/media/30/8801mc02.jpg)
By the way, if anyone knows the origin of these images let me know. They were uploaded to one of my sites but I know I've seen them before and I want to be sure the proper person gets credit for them.
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so why Hudson was kept in the background concerned the name of its really inventor?
I don't think you can say that. In Japan at least, Hudson was widely recognized as the parent company of the PC Engine. The console is, after all, called the HE System (Hudson Entertainment System). Many TV documentaries featured Shinichi Nakamoto, a Hudson top exec involved in the system design, talking about the PC Engine and its games (like an early preview of Ziria, in which the top down view was filling a quarter of the screen, à la Burai 1).
@kaminari: btw, where you come from? :)
Paris (not Texas) :)
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Interesting topic. So was the cd rom drive different than the one used with the PC Engine?
You can often find the old CD-ROM drives on yahoo autions.
The picture on h**p://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b72060509 shows that the rear plug looks identical to that one in the CD-ROM2.
I'd really like to know in how far they were compatible.
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Whoa nice pics, m1savage. I haven't seen those before, though I have seen the other weird models.
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I always assumed it only had one controller port to help maintain the small size, and partly for the reason rolins mentioned, and also probably as a small money scam.
Allow me to disagree :).
It has become common for folks to say that requiring the multi-tap was a means of milking money from consumers. However, I disagree. Rather, I think that NEC / Hudson wanted the core console to be as simple as possible. This kept costs very low. If PCE had a second port, NEC would most likely have a second controller included as well: the base price of the console would have been higher (well, this is my assumption... I might be wrong :)).
Folks who wanted to play 2+ player games would buy a multitap and extra controllers (or, friends would bring over their own controllers from their own systems).
IMO, this is an elegant solution. Nobody has to buy more than they need.
If it helps, think of PCE as "build your own console". Over the years, there were many different ways you could upgrade / customize your core console to perfectly fit your gaming preferences.
QUESTION: In Japan, I'm wondering if retailers or NEC ever offered "bundled" packages that included extra stuff. Or special offers. They did this in North America (to a small extent... such as the Bonk Super Set 2 controllers + tap + Bonk... or the free turbotap give away with the purchase of Bomberman '93...).
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It has become common for folks to say that requiring the multi-tap was a means of milking money from consumers. However, I disagree. Rather, I think that NEC / Hudson wanted the core console to be as simple as possible. This kept costs very low. If PCE had a second port, it would most likely have a second controller included as well.
I don't think Hudson straight up said "Lets make one controller port so we can make more money by charging for a tap + extra controllers". What I think happened was that since their design of the PCE was so small, they decided to leave it like that and not mess with adding an extra controller port so it didn't screw up the size and design of the PCE and for the reason you mentioned, to keep the cost low. After they decided on this they figured "Hey, we may as well make a five player multitap so people don't think this is a console only designed for single players. We can make games that have a ton of players while making a few extra bucks on the side." That's just how I see it anyways.
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Every company is out to make money. Well, other than "non-profit" organizations, and even they still try to make money - just not for themselves. Of course Hudson/NEC had this in mind with the Turbotap, but having one port on the console itself sure did help to reduce costs and size. Remember when a console used to come with a 2 controllers and a game? When was the last time you saw that? Look at the Wii nunchuk controller for heavens sake, she ain't cheap :) Crappy ol' XBox controllers are selling for $20+ - barely $5 worth of labor and parts put into the manufacture of those things.
OD
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Because the vast majority of games are digital comics, RPGs, and simulations that require only 1 player.
I made this comment referring only to the PC-8801 and PC-9801. Just want to make that clear. I thought we were just talking about NEC computers.
About the 1player port on the PCE, I still think it was mainly to squeeze money out of gamers.
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It has become common for folks to say that requiring the multi-tap was a means of milking money from consumers. However, I disagree. Rather, I think that NEC / Hudson wanted the core console to be as simple as possible. This kept costs very low. If PCE had a second port, it would most likely have a second controller included as well.
I don't think Hudson straight up said "Lets make one controller port so we can make more money by charging for a tap + extra controllers". What I think happened was that since their design of the PCE was so small, they decided to leave it like that and not mess with adding an extra controller port so it didn't screw up the size and design of the PCE and for the reason you mentioned, to keep the cost low. After they decided on this they figured "Hey, we may as well make a five player multitap so people don't think this is a console only designed for single players. We can make games that have a ton of players while making a few extra bucks on the side." That's just how I see it anyways.
Yeah, you're probably right :).
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That single port was definitely to squeeze money out of the consumers. Adding another one is/was NOT expensive, and it does not take any space either - they could've easily fitted four ports in it, if they wanted to. It wouldn't cost them a dime, and they would definitely fit in the console.
The multi tap, on the other hand, was probably super overpriced, and a great way of getting lots of extra money.
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Well if Hudson was intending for it to be a money scam, I tip my hat for them because they pulled it off magnificently! :) The idea of designing the tap to use five pads was really radical for it's time seeing as most console games were only two players, so some gamers had to figure it sucks that there is only one port on the system, but at least their commercial multi-tap supports five players. So thanks Hudson for making the Turbo/Duo Tap; Battle Royale probably wouldn't exist without it :mrgreen: .
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they could've easily fitted four ports in it, if they wanted to.
I take it you're talking about the TurboGrafx, which certainly has plenty of unused space. But of course you do realize that the US system was out almost two years after the Japanese one, and that there is no way the tight PC Engine could have offered four ports (let alone five) without looking like a bloated socket strip.
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I think Seldane was talking about the PCE, but I find it hard to believe to easily fit five four other ports onto the PCE.
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but one more time to come back on-topic. i just can't believe that NEC almost didn't anything concerned the PCE hardware-developement, since they where some of the pioneers for many electronic inventions just as CD-ROM used for data-storage, Plasma-screens for notebooks etc. which also was used in many add ons.
so even Hudson brought the idea and hardware recommendees for the design the engine, i still believe that NEC was the manufcturer of it, as well as the main-inventor for further adds just as CD-ROM, GT, LT, Duo Monitor etc.
2nd: i still don't think, many of the users recognized that Hudson was taking over a major part in the PCE development just because the HE-System. Hudson as a real brand was never shown on any of the PCE hardware units, on the contrary of the brand NEC. hudson only was well known as a software developer and inventor of the card-media (HuCrad, MSX bee-card).
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I think Seldane was talking about the PCE, but I find it hard to believe to easily fit five four other ports onto the PCE.
They could have easily fit 2 on there though, there's no excuse for only 1 port.
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They could have easily fit 2 on there though, there's no excuse for only 1 port.
Well I'd like to see you prove it first, Mr. PCE Technical Expert. :mrgreen:
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Keranu,
You really think that the PC Engine was built stuffed to capacity with the guts of the system. I've seen one cracked open and in my opinion they could have fit more controller ports. I'm not saying there could have been 5 but definitely more than one.
By the way, did you pick up a PS3 or Wii in your area and if so which store? I went to four stores before finally figuring out that Toys R Us didn't presell their entire inventory. Unfortunately, they ran out of Zelda so I had to head over to target. Sorry to hijack the thread boys I just had to check on my fellow IL boy.
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Step one: Look at picture of an open PC Engine.
Step two: Note all the extra space where a second port could have gone.
Step three: Enlightenment.
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By the way, did you pick up a PS3 or Wii in your area and if so which store? I went to four stores before finally figuring out that Toys R Us didn't presell their entire inventory. Unfortunately, they ran out of Zelda so I had to head over to target. Sorry to hijack the thread boys I just had to check on my fellow IL boy.
I went to a ghetto K-Mart in the trashy town of Steger to get my Wii. I got it by luck because they were all sold out when I got there, but this old lady gave me her ticket because she didn't want one afterall. God bless that lady :) .
Step one: Look at picture of an open PC Engine.
Step two: Note all the extra space where a second port could have gone.
Step three: Enlightenment.
Real professional :dance: .
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The Megadrive and PC Engine could've both shipped with direct A/V stereo out and 4 controller ports each. The PC Engine could've also been designed to play HuCarts instead of HuCards and shipped with a 16 button pad(at least we got Turbo switches).
But how many 2 player PCE games were there even at launch?
Back then, companies really did selectively pick and choose what to take out and what to put in to keep costs down(it never made consistant sense).
You could say that an extra controller port could've been added to the CoreGrafx's or Duo's, but by that point, it was already a success as-is and I doubt that there was mass hysteria over Tap shortages, just like how there weren't riots in the streets over Saturn & N64 ram carts.
And after the first Duo, they actually started removing features, 'cause the average schmuck just doesn't give a damn.
You could also argue that Hudson could've packed in a robot Bomberman to play the potential second pad against you and that they had a working running mat prototype and secretly sold their killer apt 'The Activator' to Sega USA since the TG-16 was tanking.
But I don't think they did any of those things will the sole intention of ripping people off. How much did they even make off of each Tap? Like $2?
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Two controller ports was standard back then though, it wasn't like they were blazing new trails, they were just being cheap. Was the PCE super cheap or something when it came out in Japan? I mean if they were charging a super low price that would explain why they would leave it off to cut costs, but if the system was expensive then there's no excuse.
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according watarus former page the release price was 24800yen for the core.
http://www6.airnet.ne.jp/wataru/pce/pce_mech.htm
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Step one: Look at picture of an open PC Engine.
Step two: Note all the extra space where a second port could have gone.
Step three: Enlightenment.
Step four omg it's full of stars!?
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according watarus former page the release price was 24800yen for the core.
http://www6.airnet.ne.jp/wataru/pce/pce_mech.htm
Holy crap! $550+ for the Duo when it came out? I'm glad the US console was only $299.
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yes..therefore a lot of US T-Duos where sold in europa as import goods.
btw. found a good chapter about the development of the engine on watarus site. they also discussing about the growup of the US TG etc. briefly, they say that the PCE was made of longterm proven PC-parts and therefore the size could be minimized to its max at that time. in japan they liked the small design of the white core, but for oversea sale it might look like a childs toy, so they pumbed it up. since they had more space available, they also changed the mini-DIN plug to the normal DIN, for robust reasons.
will translate the important parts later :)
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The US TG-16 also has a place for an onboard rom(small size though). A kiosk version with a paint program was known to use it, but they could have put a small game on there so when you turn on the system without a rom (turbochip), it would load from that internal rom instead(built in game). I wonder if any of the prototype US units uses this rom.
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The US TG-16 also has a place for an onboard rom(small size though). A kiosk version with a paint program was known to use it, but they could have put a small game on there so when you turn on the system without a rom (turbochip), it would load from that internal rom instead(built in game). I wonder if any of the prototype US units uses this rom.
Very interesting, I had heard nothing about this before.
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according watarus former page the release price was 24800yen for the core.
http://www6.airnet.ne.jp/wataru/pce/pce_mech.htm
Holy crap! $550+ for the Duo when it came out? I'm glad the US console was only $299.
I believe that it was $550 Canadian when it debuted here. It was worth every penny though, particularly with the ton of quality software it came with.
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I believe that it was $550 Canadian when it debuted here. It was worth every penny though, particularly with the ton of quality software it came with.
I paid $400 for mine, but remember how low the dollar was back "then".
OD
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$300 was a ton of money back then, It took me forever just to afford the $200 Sega CD back when the price dropped on those.
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$300 was a ton of money back then, It took me forever just to afford the $200 Sega CD back when the price dropped on those.
Yeah, my brothers and I paid ~$300-350 for TG-CD and it was a friggin' ton of money. I think it was all of our birthday + xmas + raking leaves / shoveling snow for neighbors money combined.
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I believe that it was $550 Canadian when it debuted here. It was worth every penny though, particularly with the ton of quality software it came with.
I paid $400 for mine, but remember how low the dollar was back "then".
OD
I think that the Turbo Express was also around $500 at Radio Shack and bumped up to $550+ after tax. But I got mine like within weeks after RS brought it in.
Around the same time, Nintendo sent me a 'letter' telling me about how the Canadian pricing for their system was cheaper than in the U.S., because Nintendo cared enough about us less fortunates.
I received junk mail from Nintendo for years after my early Nintendo Power subscription ran out. Including the DKC video.