PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Sales & Trades => Topic started by: Spector on January 21, 2007, 06:52:48 AM
-
Okay, it's the dreaded "who can perform an AV mod for me" thread...
I live in the UK, and am looking to delve into the world of PC Engine magic. I want to mod a white JAP PC Engine, and nothing else. I know that superfamifreak used to do this, but he doesn't visit here much anymore. Is there anyone else in the UK capable of modding? Hope so :)
-
Okay, it's the dreaded "who can perform an AV mod for me" thread...
I live in the UK, and am looking to delve into the world of PC Engine magic. I want to mod a white JAP PC Engine, and nothing else. I know that superfamifreak used to do this, but he doesn't visit here much anymore. Is there anyone else in the UK capable of modding? Hope so :)
You can buy many of the other PC Engine systems, which all have A/V output, for a lot less than what someone would charge for a mod.
-
Get a CoreGrafx. Same as the PC engine just with the AV outputs. It's grey instead of white, too. Otherwise identical.
-
Yeah I know about these other versions. Just to stop the thread turning into a lot of suggestions as to what model to buy with A/V, I repeat that it's the white model that I want modded, and that's all. I have a question or two regarding the CoreGrafx, but that's for another thread.
-
Get a CoreGrafx, take off the grey shell. Throw it away. Put white PC Engine shell on CoreGrafx. Cut hole for composite video and stereo audio jacks. Show to friends.
-
Get a CoreGrafx, take off the grey shell. Throw it away. Put white PC Engine shell on CoreGrafx. Cut hole for composite video and stereo audio jacks. Show to friends.
That probably really is the easiest way if you want just the A/V output. Not to mention you'll get a two units out of the deal for probably less money (unless you really throw away the other unit as Joe suggested), and it'll be sturdier than actually modifying the unit.
The only thing is, you'll have to use the standard a/v cable that you have to use for the Coregrafx/Duos - the large din5 type. I'm assuming that's not a problem.
-
if you can get your hands on a French Sodipeng unit, those output SCART... or does your TV not accept that?
-
Oh, and do you ever plan to add a CD-ROM system to this PC Engine unit? Because once you connect it to a CD-ROM system, you have access to an a/v output through the cd-rom unit.
-
Oh, and do you ever plan to add a CD-ROM system to this PC Engine unit? Because once you connect it to a CD-ROM system, you have access to an a/v output through the cd-rom unit.
But it won't fit into the CD-ROM interface if it's modded. :wink:
-
OFF TOPIC: This thread made me want to play PC Engine. BADLY!! I'll do it soon.
/spam :-&
-
Two follow up questions regarding the CoreGrafx:
1. Is there anyone from the UK here that uses one?
2. If so, how good is the picture? Is it snowy, or fairly clear?
-
We have one other UK PC Engine owner Digi.k. He showed us pictures where he uses I think RGB cables
Though I live in the USA (NTSC territory), I straight up sympathize with you PC Engine fans living in Europe
-
Hello everyone, :D
Short term lurker and a first time poster here. :)
In answer to your question Spector, I'm in the UK and have had a white PCE successfully modded to output RGB.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/NeoStuey/DSCF2668.jpg)
It's had the RF modulator removed and replaced with an internal RGB mod with amplifier that connects using a DIN to Scart connection. In fact I have two different Scart leads made at my request.
One (not pictured) is for when the PC Engine is in stand alone mode, this takes both the audio and video signal via the DIN connection and out through the Scart.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/NeoStuey/DSCF2667.jpg)
The Second (pictured above) when using the CD Interface takes just the RGB video signal via the DIN connection and the audio via two phonos is taken from the AV output on the Interface unit to Scart. This gives me the best of both worlds as now my PC Engine can be used either with or without the CD Interface and I still get the optimum picture performance. :D
A couple of pics to show RGB in the flesh. My TV screen being rear projection makes it hard to capture a great photo but these examples aren't too bad, it still looks much nicer in the flesh.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/NeoStuey/DSCF2669.jpg)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/NeoStuey/DSCF2670.jpg)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/NeoStuey/DSCF1991.jpg)
I haven't the skill/patience to do such a mod myself but I will see if I can contact the guy who did such a great job on mine. :)
-
Stuey told me about this thread so I have registered, apologies for not introducing myself first, I am fairly active on some other forums which I wont mention since im not sure if its against your board rules yet. I have lurked here a bit too.
I am the person who modded Stueys PC Engine as shown above for RGB output. I think the original poster may be wanting RGB output instead of A/V output, but yes, you could call the socket an "A/V socket" that outputs RGB..
I modded Stueys by taking out the old RF unit and trying to neatly enlarge the hole to fit the new DIN socket.
It would of been possible if it were a standalone PC Engine to have a captive cable coming out of the rear i.e. no socket, just a cable coming out secured by a grommet, but since he wanted to use it with an IFU-30 and CD-ROM unit that wasnt an option.
Anyway if anyone wants to get in touch I can provide plenty of feedback and references with regards to my modding skills, all happy people of course, just send me a PM and I can provide all the necessary info.
Ive only got into PC Engine recently, ive played "teh romz" some time ago on my GP32, and I really like the system and games. Im a big collector of Sega and Nintendo, from the UK, North-West (Lancashire)
Anyway peace out, James.
-
Ah yes: breakthrough!
I'm just going to send you a pm right now... O:)
-
I sent a pm, but it hasn't shown up in my outbox. I don't know whether it got there now...
-
I've purchased a few SCART cables from Chaoticjelly on eBay and they've always worked well. I added an amp and put a DIN-8 socket (from an old TurboTap) into the interface unit of my TurboGrafx-16 CD-ROM. I then removed the resistors from an old Mega Drive 1 SCART cable, made the audio cable fit into regular RCA plugs and there I go. Since I am in the US, I transcode the RGB into component video. Looks phuggin' great!
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/Turbo1.jpg)
And, of course, a shot of my TV screen.
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/sf2turbo.jpg)
Note that I do NOT stretch 4:3 images to 16:9, since that is evil. Of course this TV isn't 16:9 anyway, so that helps. :)
-
Yeah, I know ChaoticJelly from over at sega8bit where he regularly posts. He's a good guy and REALLY knows his stuff when it comes to modding pretty much every system. He's done stuff for a lot of people I know.
-
Joe what do you use to transcode to component? A guy on the Gamesx forum recommended a Jrock box since they're pretty reasonably priced, like $65 or so.
-
For component Jrok you'd have to buy something like the Jrok 4.0,which is actually around 85-90 bucks.
-
My SCART RGB to component (YUV) transcoder is made by CYP. I had to import it from Australia and it was close to $95 or so. it works great and I use it for all of my "classic" systems. Totally worth it unless you plan on using it for only one system.
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/scart1.jpg)
It does need a slight mod for sound, though, as it doesn't support sound at all. It is very simple, just attach the RCA sound cables to the SCART pins inside.
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/scart3.jpg)
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/scart2.jpg)
-
Sweet, yeah I need to get one of those, old systems look like ass on an HDTV through S-video or regular AV. I just emailed the Jrock guy to ask about prices, I must have been looking at something else because I thought I saw $65 as the price for just the component one.
-
They'll look like ass on an HDTV with component video as well. HDTV cannot handle 240p very well. Play on an SDTV that handles component.
-
They look like ass on ANY tv using composite or s-video!! :roll:
-
Composite rules.
-
Composite rules.
Yeah right :P No Component and RBG rules.
No offense but composite is like looking through a dirty fish bowl.
-
I don't see anything wrong with composite. It can look a bit poor on Genesis, but I don't mind it. But really, using composite isn't the end of the world and is cheaper and easier for a person like me to use. Not only that, but from what I've heard, using composite for older games can actually be better since dithering patterns will look nicer. I'm not a techie nerd when it comes to this (and frankly, I don't want to be; spare my life :mrgreen: !), so sorry if my n00bish post offends.
-
I don't see anything wrong with composite. It can look a bit poor on Genesis, but I don't mind it. But really, using composite isn't the end of the world and is cheaper and easier for a person like me to use. Not only that, but from what I've heard, using composite for older games can actually be better since dithering patterns will look nicer. I'm not a techie nerd when it comes to this (and frankly, I don't want to be; spare my life :mrgreen: !), so sorry if my n00bish post offends.
You know, as much as I like tinkering around with systems, I was never a videophile myself. I definitely have to agree with Keranu somewhat. On older systems, if you get to see every single pixel clearly, graphics just start looking very blocky cause the original resolution of the game is too low (i.e. like running 8/16-bit emulators on your pc monitor and leaving off the dithering/higher resolution options.
But I can obviously see the benefit in using component/rgb hookups for newer systems where the resolution is high enough to not let the above happen.
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?
-
I don't see anything wrong with composite. It can look a bit poor on Genesis, but I don't mind it. But really, using composite isn't the end of the world and is cheaper and easier for a person like me to use. Not only that, but from what I've heard, using composite for older games can actually be better since dithering patterns will look nicer. I'm not a techie nerd when it comes to this (and frankly, I don't want to be; spare my life :mrgreen: !), so sorry if my n00bish post offends.
You know, as much as I like tinkering around with systems, I was never a videophile myself. I definitely have to agree with Keranu somewhat. On older systems, if you get to see every single pixel clearly, graphics just start looking very blocky cause the original resolution of the game is too low (i.e. like running 8/16-bit emulators on your pc monitor and leaving off the dithering/higher resolution options.
But I can obviously see the benefit in using component/rgb hookups for newer systems where the resolution is high enough to not let the above happen.
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?
I'd like to find out about the difference between rgb and av too. In the 1980s/ early 90s, when people played the PC Engine/Turbografx, nobody used RGB - the best they had was A/V. If it was good enough for them, then surely it's good enough for us now?
-
Here comes a very non technical reply. 8-[
From my own experience I'll admit that the composite image produced by the Interface Unit isn't too bad, but some things I've noticed with the composite connection is that the colours can seem washed out or even dull, their can be visible shimmering on fast moving objects or even still images with areas of high contrast. You can also get colour bleed, particularly reds and blues have indistinct edges leading to some images looking slightly blurred.
With a properly done RGB mod, ( thanks to chaoticjelly :D ) the colour is much improved, the shimmer disappears and the reds and blue's are much better defined leading to a sharper image overall. :)
AFAIK it was possible back in the day to mod the white PC Engines for RGB but the original mod drew a rather low powered RGB signal straight out of the PC Engine without any amplification. Colour booster amps were later released to rectify the problem. Starting out as stand alone boxes that your scart lead would plug into and then out to the TV. They were eventually replaced by a colour booster scart cable that was basically a female to male scart lead with the colour boosting amp wired in that you plugged between your PC Engine and TV.
The mod that chaoticjelly did for me put all the electronics needed back inside the PC Engine so the mod and amp are all self contained within the console itself. I guess that over time the electronic components needed to make such an amplifier have gotten small enough and that the technical knowledge has been refined over the years for this to be the case.
Posted by: Joe Redifer
Note that I do NOT stretch 4:3 images to 16:9, since that is evil. Of course this TV isn't 16:9 anyway, so that helps. Smile
I agree entirely, I wouldn't stretch the image either but unfortunately my TV has really horrible bright grey borders when running in 4:3 mode. I wish they could be set to black, I could live with that. O:)
-
Here comes a very non technical reply. 8-[
From my own experience I'll admit that the composite image produced by the Interface Unit isn't too bad, but some things I've noticed with the composite connection is that the colours can seem washed out or even dull, their can be visible shimmering on fast moving objects or even still images with areas of high contrast. You can also get colour bleed, particularly reds and blues have indistinct edges leading to some images looking slightly blurred.
With a properly done RGB mod, ( thanks to chaoticjelly :D ) the colour is much improved, the shimmer disappears and the reds and blue's are much better defined leading to a sharper image overall. :)
Are the graphics "blockier" looking as a result? I'd guess they would be. This is one thing I don't like about emulators - the image is too clear, and that is putting me off RGB a bit. The thought of washed out colours puts me off too though...
-
Shimmering is about the worst aspect of using composite on older systems. Color bleed can be corrected if you have a good tv with a comb filter. 3-line to 3d filters will correct the color bleed you speak of. 2-line filters will battle it,but will still experience a little bit. I have 3 tvs in the house,1 Samsung,and 2 Apexs. Both of the Apex tvs have 3-line filters and have been calabrated with the Avia calibration utility. Neither Apex gets color bleed except on VHS or a very poorly mastered laserdisc. The Samsung only has a 2-line comb filter and its a poor quality one,so it can experience some color bleed. Its not terrible however,and the sharpnes is good even in composite.
Genesis wise,the composite output was poor to begin with,and depending on what model you have,it can be worse from deck to deck.The Genesis is def one of those systems that gets a huge boost when modded to s-video or when used with RGB.
-
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?
Oh absolutely! Especially since you said PCE, which easily has the worst composite output I've ever seen! Once you go RGB, you can never go back. Never. Of course, since it is a tv rather than a monitor, the picture is still slightly blurry, but it is nowhere near the infernal blur the composite output delivers. And the colors, oh the colors. The difference cannot be described with words, it really isn't possible.
The only good thing about composite is that it gives you that nice nostalgic feeling of having a bad picture on a bad tv. At least that's the feeling it gives me. :D
-
Well, I dunno - am I really missing something here for not using rgb connections for a system like the tg16/pc-engine?
Oh absolutely! Especially since you said PCE, which easily has the worst composite output I've ever seen! Once you go RGB, you can never go back. Never. Of course, since it is a tv rather than a monitor, the picture is still slightly blurry, but it is nowhere near the infernal blur the composite output delivers. And the colors, oh the colors. The difference cannot be described with words, it really isn't possible.
The only good thing about composite is that it gives you that nice nostalgic feeling of having a bad picture on a bad tv. At least that's the feeling it gives me. :D
Okay Seldane, here's my question to you:
Do you prefer the technically perfect picture from a PC Engine emulator viewed on a monitor to a real PC Engine with its slight blur on a TV?
-
What perfect timing. I just opened up a page on my site I call "I want my RGB" that has (slightly badly photographed) comparisons of RGB and Composite video for several game systems.
You can see the comparison page here: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html
Scroll to the bottom to see the PCE screenshots.
And I disagree with Seldane, the PCE/TG-16 have some of the best composite video of all the 8/16-bit systems. If you've ever played the Neo-Geo or US Master System through composite, you'd understand. The clarity of the PCE's composite is almost on par with the SNES/SFC. Anyway, I invite you to check out my webpage.
-
The perfect picture you speak of on a emulator isn't presenting the game as it was originally meant to be viewed. Most any emulator these days is run trough the hardware filters on your computers graphics card that wasn't possible on the original hardware. This has been commonplace since Power VR 2 days.
The actual system hardwares video output was designed around composite and rf analog signal,thats what they intended you to use. By doing the RGB mod you can intercept RGB off of the hardware and obtain a perfect picture in its purest form,however this is not how Hudson and NEC intended you to play as back then RGB was rare in homes,and you have to improve the RGB signals. Esp here in the USA analog RGB didn't gain a good foothold at all. Mostly it was used on computers like the C64/128 and medical equipment and arcade cabs. In Japan it had a slightly more common use but still small and limited to the elite home theater/gaming wise.
S-video has been up until now what people considered the best visual output on home tvs in NTSC regions overall,until component surpassed it,but not effectively on SDTV. S-video was designed around 480i NTSC or 576i PAL,whereas Component was designed and intended for much higher res with progressive scan ability. Because of this,and some other factors coming into play,sometimes you can have a SDTV with both Component and S-video input and both have the same quality on screen. On some the Component video will be better,but not by much,and typically on these types of tvs where component is better,its because the S-video quality of this tv isn't so hot.
This happens alot on SDTV sets as the manufactures tend to do stupid things like:
If the TV offers Component,S-video,composite,and RF they sometimes crap out and use the worst components possible for the lower grade inputs so that composite will end up looking horrible,S-video will end up looking only slightly better then composite and Component will be absolute king. These kinda SDTVs tend to be the ones with 2-line comb filters,half the time,or 3-line filters that use poor quality chips that cause composite to be so horrible.
Without a good comb filter composite suffers from alot of dot crawl,color bleed,picture noise,ect ect...
Some people don't know this so I am going to list it,The comb filter in your tv is used for composite and Rf,not your S-video and Component video. If you get into laserdisc collecting you'll also find out sometimes your Tvs comb filter can be weaker then your laserdisc players,granted you have a LD player with s-video out and a comb filter,and your TV is dirt old,like early to mid 90ies. All ld players with s-video have comb filters on board to clean the image before it gets sent to the Tv. The only time this isn't the case is if you have a hacked/mod s-video port on a LD player like the laseractive as some people mod those. On good modern tvs with great comb filters better then the one on your LD player you can actually get a better picture using your LD players composite output then using your LD players S-video.
A well built SDTV will have S-video with quality on par with the Component and both will be from a visual standpoint outstanding looking. These days its going to be harder to find tvs like this SDTV wise. My 24 inch Apex monitor only has S-video and composite,but its quality is superior to my friends Sony Wega 36 inch S-video and composite quality,and is on par with his Component picture quality when compared to my Apexs S-video. I hear people complain about this problem alot with Sony and Philips/Magnovox SDTVs of varring screen sizes also saying the S-video is poorer then what it should be and composite is more RF like then anything else.
-
The perfect picture you speak of on a emulator isn't presenting the game as it was originally meant to be viewed. Most any emulator these days is run trough the hardware filters on your computers graphics card that wasn't possible on the original hardware. This has been commonplace since Power VR 2 days.
The actual system hardwares video output was designed around composite and rf analog signal,thats what they intended you to use. By doing the RGB mod you can intercept RGB off of the hardware and obtain a perfect picture in its purest form,however this is not how Hudson and NEC intended you to play as back then RGB was rare in homes,and you have to improve the RGB signals. Esp here in the USA analog RGB didn't gain a good foothold at all. Mostly it was used on computers like the C64/128 and medical equipment and arcade cabs. In Japan it had a slightly more common use but still small and limited to the elite home theater/gaming wise.
Your comments about Composite and RGB with respect to the PC Engine along with ccovell's screenshot comparisons (which don't show too much difference) suggest that for me, an AV rather than an RGB mod is the way to go.
-
Yea the Pc-Engine/TurboGrafx composite is some of the best composite output for a system Ive ever seen myself. Its still worlds above the Genesis and if your tv is well built is very nice/sharp and with great color.
-
What perfect timing. I just opened up a page on my site I call "I want my RGB" that has (slightly badly photographed) comparisons of RGB and Composite video for several game systems.
You can see the comparison page here: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html
Scroll to the bottom to see the PCE screenshots.
And I disagree with Seldane, the PCE/TG-16 have some of the best composite video of all the 8/16-bit systems. If you've ever played the Neo-Geo or US Master System through composite, you'd understand. The clarity of the PCE's composite is almost on par with the SNES/SFC. Anyway, I invite you to check out my webpage.
That page you made is awesome, thanks! I'm impressed with the PCE's composite quality in those shots. Personally, I think the composite looks a bit better for the most part actually. To me, going through a RGB mode for PCE certainly wouldn't be worth it. Same thing goes with NES and SNES.
I admit though, the RGB on SMS and Genesis looks very nice! Of course those systems, as already posted, didn't have good composite to begin with. I've been thinking about doing an s-video mod on my Genesis for awhile now and if it's as good as the RGB in those shots, then I'll have to consider doing it in the future.
-
As far as Genesis goes,more examples here:
http://www.sega-16.com/Seeing%20is%20Believing-%20Video%20Connections%202.php (http://www.sega-16.com/Seeing is Believing- Video Connections 2.php)
I'm sure Joe remembers doing this. Nothing like seeing Midnight Resistance in its full glory.
-
Nice link, Mike. He mentioned that people usually charge around $60 for s-video mods, how much would this cost to do yourself? I recall a friend of mine who does Genesis s-video mods saying it costs him much less than that.
-
It depends on the Genesis involved. Model 3 only takes like 7 bucks in parts. The last run of model 2s Gens have the same Sony CX as the Genesis 3 and use the same 7 bucks in parts. Some Genesis 2 decks cant be done at all due to they sometimes had Samsung chips in them. Some have the older Sony CX and can still be done but like the Genesis 1 require a tad bit more work and parts. Around 15-20 bucks worth depending on where you buy your stuff at.
The last Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 decks are the easiest to do. CDX is a pain period. JVC X-eye can be modded too btw.
-
Wow, people preferring composite over RGB, I have actually never seen this. Almost shocking! Or are you just narrow-minded and refuse to realize the awful truth by lying? :roll:
-
Not sure who your refering to,I perfer RGB (on a arcade monitor or c 64 monitor) over anything else myself if "good" RGB is obtainable. Not everyone has a RGB monitor though,and most SDTV sets just support composite and s-video.
Thing is I do think the RGB or S-video gain from a PC-Engine isn't as big a leap for that system as it is for you to get RGB or S-video from a Genesis deck. Regardless of what you say Seldane composite is pretty good for the Tg/Pc-Engine,esp if you have a great TV with a great comb filter. It still wont be as good as RGB or S-video,but its still pretty damn good,unless its Pal composite. There is a reason people perfer RGB scart to composite there in Europe,cause Pal runs slower and crunches the screen on alot of game systems. Pal simply sucks ass. if I lived in Europe I'd only use RGB period.
-
To answer a question from earlier, no, uprading the video to s-video or RGB or component does NOT make it appear more blocky. If you play on an SDTV, you still get 240p. If you play on an HDTV, it'll look blocky no matter how you hook it up.
Midnight Resistance was voted BEST GAME EVER MADE by Scott Baio (Chachi).
-
Wow, people preferring composite over RGB, I have actually never seen this. Almost shocking! Or are you just narrow-minded and refuse to realize the awful truth by lying? :roll:
On the link Chris provided, component did look better for the most part, but just slightly. However in a few pictures I saw, I thought the composite looked a little better since it made the dithering smoother and the colors actually looked brighter. But it's not really the picture why I prefer composite over component, but for the following reasons: the composite output is already built in, it's a lot cheaper (don't need a fancy TV, any special hardware, no modding), I don't have to waste my time or effort modding a system myself or sending it to get modded, and lastly so I don't have to modify the shape of my system and can keep it how it was originally designed. If you're a videophile and don't mind putting down a lot of money for a mod to make the picture look a little better on your TV, be my guest. For me, I'll be using my money for what gaming is supposed to be used for: GAMES!
-
Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.
Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.
-
Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.
Well I guess I would have to see the difference in real life, but honestly I see nothing wrong with using composite so I'll stick with what the console was designed for.
Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.
You left out the part saying that the typical American like myself needing to buy a new TV with component output. And also $2 is still plenty of good money to use on games! :D
-
True the cost to tap RGB is about nill on the Pc-Engine,the effort on the other hand is a bit more,esp for people with no prior mod experience. And there are plenty of people who are just fine with composite,and are happy with how it looks. Its not worth arguing over or trying to insult someone over because it boils down to personal perference which can change from person to person.
Not just that,the RGB mod may be cheap,and if you live in europe your tv probably accepts RGB scart already,but over here you have to trow down cash for a RGB capable monitor. Thats not worth it for some people as Keranu said,who are not videophiles. Take that into account and add the fact that if you want component video out and you want that mod done on each system individually its going to cost some cash and effort to do unless you build a breakout box and use a universal type cord system tapping normal rgb and converting it into component,which still cost more then 2 bucks.
-
Modding my Turbo for RGB was TOTALLY worth it. Yes, the Turbo's composite is extremely good, but it shimmers like a bitch when the screen scrolls. On Ys 1&2, when Feena appears on the title screen using the oval crystal to cover her enormous tits, her blue her is flickering back and forth. Looks bad. With RGB, all of the shimmering is gone, Feena's hair doesn't flicker and she doesn't use the oval crystal to block her boobs, she shows them in full glory! :) But seriously, more details can be seen, the reds are MUCH better (the other colors are only a teeny bit better than composite).
I'm wondering how ccovell or whatever his name is got his NES to output RGB.
-
Modding my Turbo for RGB was TOTALLY worth it. Yes, the Turbo's composite is extremely good, but it shimmers like a bitch when the screen scrolls. On Ys 1&2, when Feena appears on the title screen using the oval crystal to cover her enormous tits, her blue her is flickering back and forth. Looks bad. With RGB, all of the shimmering is gone, Feena's hair doesn't flicker and she doesn't use the oval crystal to block her boobs, she shows them in full glory! :) But seriously, more details can be seen, the reds are MUCH better (the other colors are only a teeny bit better than composite).
I'm wondering how ccovell or whatever his name is got his NES to output RGB.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/fctitler.html
-
Re: Famicom
Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? :roll:
Here's the main RGB page, with short descriptions of the systems that I have gotten RGB from.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html
And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board :( Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal. Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again. The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.
-
Great discussion here. And ccovell and Joe Rediger - good articles. I have a much better idea about what the advantages are now. The problem is, as some of you stated - I'd need a new TV in the first place, and that won't be happening anytime soon.
I guess I was more into upgrading the sound system to make the gaming experience more enjoyable. And considering sound systems can be used for anything, and you don't need to modify individual systems, I found an upgrade in audio to be a "better value" for enjoying gaming overall.
-
And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board :( Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal. Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again. The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.
Well as I said, I'm no video techie (and happy to not be), but you guys get what I'm saying.
-
Re: Famicom
Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? :roll:
Here's the main RGB page, with short descriptions of the systems that I have gotten RGB from.
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/index.html
And unfortunately people are already confusing composite(A/V), component, and RGB on this board :( Composite and RGB have been around for a long time, and for old systems like the ones on my page, RGB is the purest possible signal. Component is the standard for newer systems, and it does not send pure R, G, B signals over the cables, but rather a mixed signal Y,Pr,Pb (?) that gets mathematically separated into R,G,B once again. The upside of Component is that it has standards for progressive scan and HDTV, etc.
Some people just don't know because they have very little experience with any of it. Alot of people assume because of lack of knowledge that component was normal RGB like that found in scart or jamma,c64 monitors and normal RGB monitors,and they don't know that Component uses things like sync on green and other methods and is a different type of signal. You really have to break it down for people with lots of details because if they have little knowledge of it they wont understand the difference otherwise and all they visualize is those red,green,and blue Component cables and think,RGB.
Also I posted a link to your Fami mod for Joe. I checked over your site,it was all pretty cool stuff.
-
Jeez, nobody clicked on the "back" link at the bottom of my screenshots page? :roll:
Geez man, sorry. I must be too stupid to even deserve RGB.
Anyway the end result between component and RGB should be identical. Component doesn't lose any image quality from RGB, it just does things differently to conserve bandwidth. In the end it all depends on your display, and there are quite a few TVs I've seen out there that do bad component. Also, I don't have any vertical lines in the blues on my Genesis, but I do see some vertical lines in my Turbo's RGB output.
-
Believe me, the colors are NOT brighter when using composite, it's the other way around. TOTALLY the other way around. If you compare composite vs rgb in reality (i e not pictures/video) you'll see the massive difference.
Also: I spent $2 total in order to get my PCE to output RGB of perfection. No more, no less.
It's true. Even if the Turbo/PCE's composite was good for it's time, it doesn't change the fact that the color is totally drained from the picture and dithering turns into unnatural colors. I'm no techy spec-head, so I won't try to guess at the causes of the degradation, and it's besides the point.
http://members.shaw.ca/turboduo/svideo.html
Take a look at the cinema shot with the blonde haired soldier. The two skin tones get 'blended' with an ugly puke green. Regardless of the why's and how's, you get a clear picture with RGB/S-Video that lets you see the real graphics, just as the developer's intended you to never see. :P
In the case of Forgotten Worlds, Capcom never intended their arcade game to be strained through PC Engine hardware anyway. :wink:
The other major thing, is that the colors look vibrant and are similar to emulation.
http://superpcenginegrafx.com/wii_video_temp.html
In the link above, if you compare the S-Video screenshots to the emulated ones, they're very similar. Which shows how good the S-Video/RGB mod is.
Further down you can see how colorless the composite Turbo/PCE screenshots look compared to emulation and the Wii. But if you look at the rollover images of the Wii vs Turbo/PCE S-Video they're about the same. Then look at the Wii vs Turbo/PCE composite rollovers. The Wii composite image still looks nice and vibrant, but the Turbo/PCE image looks like it got crossed with a b&w image.
So even if the Turbo/PCE composite was one of the best back in the day, it certainly does kick the crap out of the graphics before they reach the screen, compared to the Wii's composite.
The Turbo/PCE S-Video mod as I understand it, is a hack of the RGB mod. So the RGB will look even better(not much) on a TV that supports it or when transcoded(or whatever) into component and played on a TV that supports 240p.
And like Seldane said, on a real TV, the difference is more noticeable than screenshots and photos.
-
But can't you just turn the colour dial up on your TV to compensate for loss of colour? :)
-
But can't you just turn the colour dial up on your TV to compensate for loss of colour? :)
You can and it does help some games in some places, but best case scenario it's still nowhere near as nice as the RGB/S-Video mod and only makes things like the dithering vommit effect worse.
-
I take it the screen caps are done via capture card. Im kinda curious as to what card because some cap cards do a horrible job of capping composite signal because they have zero comb filter power to speak of.
And even so,the Bomber Man comparison looks no where near as bad as Deans fudged lowered color pics. Im not saying composite is better then s-video,cause its not,but I had Forgotten Worlds back when I saw that Deans page there,back around when I first joined,and compared his pics to my Tvs image and mine looked much better,more along his s-video pics color wise. His pics looked like the color was lowered on purpose and the tint was played with. Seemed like a ploy to sell mods. I think I will have my friend,who still has the game for Pc-Engine,run it in composite on his Sony Wega when he gets back home next week,and take pics for me to post here.
-
But can't you just turn the colour dial up on your TV to compensate for loss of colour? :)
Actually that'll only make it worse. Composite blurs the picture and a phenomenon known as "color bleeding" is very noticable. Increasing the color value will only make matters worse. Much worse, the color bleeding will ruin the picture entirely.
RGB is video in its purest form, there's no "compression" or any any cheap techiques used, it's just that - pure, beautiful video.
Let's say we have three buckets of paint. One red, one green and one blue. By mixing these colors we can make a wide variety of hues and it will look really good, as the buckets of paint are seperate and clean from the very beginning.
Composite, on the other hand, is cheap. Someone poured all the color (red, green and blue) into one bucket and then tries to seperate them, and mix them to make all the other hues but it looks like crap since he's already mixed all the colors in the same bucket. Get my point? :P
-
Yeah, that Forgotten Worlds comparison is a little bit misleading. On a real TV, the dithering pattern through composite generates a bit of noise and interference (kinda like the flickering hair in Ys) that is more detailed than a capture card can grab. He should at least capture two fields (1/60th of a second) at a high resolution (720x480 or so) and merge those together to give a more accurate representation of what our eyes see on the TV screen.
Regarding which has brighter colours, RGB or composite, it really depends on the display device. RGB definitely has purer colours, but composite has "hotter" reds and blues on my TV. The gamma levels of TVs and video monitors are also different. So everyone's mileage may vary.
-
I take it the screen caps are done via capture card. Im kinda curious as to what card because some cap cards do a horrible job of capping composite signal because they have zero comb filter power to speak of.
And even so,the Bomber Man comparison looks no where near as bad as Deans fudged lowered color pics. Im not saying composite is better then s-video,cause its not,but I had Forgotten Worlds back when I saw that Deans page there,back around when I first joined,and compared his pics to my Tvs image and mine looked much better,more along his s-video pics color wise. His pics looked like the color was lowered on purpose and the tint was played with. Seemed like a ploy to sell mods. I think I will have my friend,who still has the game for Pc-Engine,run it in composite on his Sony Wega when he gets back home next week,and take pics for me to post here.
I've noticed the same thing with various screenshots. Although I previously used ATI AIW video cards, my latest PC has a Hauppaugge PVR 350(?), which is an actual capture card. I know that the dvd video it captures is much better than the video cards I had before, but I didn't take enough screenshots or have the S-Video mod before.
The difference between composite and the S-Video mod I have varies between games. Forgotten Worlds is a good example of a nice looking game that suffers the most through composite. I used Bomberman '93 as the example on the Wii page, because it's a VC title which shows the best looking/most solid Turbo composite and is nice and colorful.
Were the sceenshots on D-Lite's page taken with a digital camera? Because that throws all kinds of variables into it.
The one thing I did with my screenshots was capture them at the lowest 2 resolutions my card allows and didn't resize them.
Yeah, that Forgotten Worlds comparison is a little bit misleading. On a real TV, the dithering pattern through composite generates a bit of noise and interference (kinda like the flickering hair in Ys) that is more detailed than a capture card can grab. He should at least capture two fields (1/60th of a second) at a high resolution (720x480 or so) and merge those together to give a more accurate representation of what our eyes see on the TV screen.
Regarding which has brighter colours, RGB or composite, it really depends on the display device. RGB definitely has purer colours, but composite has "hotter" reds and blues on my TV. The gamma levels of TVs and video monitors are also different. So everyone's mileage may vary.
Yeah, that was just a quick page I threw together back when I first got my PCE modded. I still plan on doing a real composite vs S-Video mod page, but am concentrating on the Virtual Console stuff right now.
The reason I used Forgotten Worlds as an example in the first place, is because the difference on a few real TV's was most noticible with that game, even if still screenshots don't tell the whole story.
Although I've always planned to use various videos as a comparison, I don't think that my card captures fps higher than ntsc dvd.
But like you said, every TV set is also different and it depends on the combination.
From my personal experience, playing Turbo/PCE games with the S-Video mod looks like I'm running Magic Engine from my PC to a TV.
-
Capturing 2 fields in fun! I can't make the GIF animate as fast as it does on a TV screen in real life, but the picture below shows the shimmering effect that quite a lot of Turbo games have in composite. NES games, too. They must use a similar composite encoder (and sound chip).
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/Ys.gif)
Black_Tiger, does anything like this happen on your system with S-video?
-
Capturing 2 fields in fun! I can't make the GIF animate as fast as it does on a TV screen in real life, but the picture below shows the shimmering effect that quite a lot of Turbo games have in composite. NES games, too. They must use a similar composite encoder (and sound chip).
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/Ys.gif)
Black_Tiger, does anything like this happen on your system with S-video?
There isn't any shimmering with the S-Video mod that I have.
Last night I captured a captured a couple Forgotten Worlds videos to see the difference in motion again.
On the one TV I have at my computer, the blonde soldier's portrait didn't have that green effect, instead it shimmered, which looks better.
But, whenever the game scrolled(all the time), all the fine detail and dithering had that same ugly effect(blue stripes in the middle of brown shading).
So the blonde soldier screenshot was a good example of what Turbo/PCE composite looks like 90% of the time.
I don't care if developers planned for the shading in PC Engine games to be ruined or not, that stuff is not cool.
-
Capturing 2 fields in fun! I can't make the GIF animate as fast as it does on a TV screen in real life, but the picture below shows the shimmering effect that quite a lot of Turbo games have in composite. NES games, too. They must use a similar composite encoder (and sound chip).
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/Ys.gif)
Black_Tiger, does anything like this happen on your system with S-video?
I'm aware of the shimmering effect, but it certainly doesn't look that bad on any TVs I have used :D . Besides, the shimmering doesn't bother me at all, I think people just like to be nit-picky.
-
I like a bit of shimmering myself; a perfectly clean picture can appear a bit lifeless to me. It's almost like the old vinyl/Cd argument again. I prefer vinyl for old music, and composite/rf for old consoles.
Maybe I'm just an old fart :D
-
We all must justify what we have or don't have, I guess.
Just keep in mind that if you like arcade screens, you like RGB.
-
I tried capturing some video of Forgotten Worlds the other night to see how it would turn out.
It's not the best example of all the differences between composite and S-Video and the demos aren't the best visual examples to use... but if you still want to take a look-
This is a HD split screen-
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/pcevideo.avi
This one cross fades between the two, and just happened to line up so that the cross fading in the second half is pretty much useless :P
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/pcevideo2.avi
-
All that tells me is your cap card may not like capping composite signal so much.Pretty much all the color looks sucked completely out which isn't natural even for composite. Like I said,Ill have my friend take some pics of it running on his Sony Wega.
-
All that tells me is your cap card may not like capping composite signal so much.Pretty much all the color looks sucked completely out which isn't natural even for composite. Like I said,Ill have my friend take some pics of it running on his Sony Wega.
The difference actually looks worse on all my real TV's, including my Sony that's the model that was replaced by the Wega, but looks the same, and couple friends Wega's.
Honestly, I don't think that composite looks so bad on it's own, because the graphics are still there. Its only when you compare it to S-Video that it doesn't look as good.
If you want to take a look at my Wii vs TG-16 video page again, you'll see that the Wii's composite looks identical to the Wii's S-Video, and both have nice vibrant colors.
So unless my cap card's prejudgiced against Turbo/PCE composite, it should be a fairly accurate portrayel of the difference in general. Except that some of the artifacts from the Turbo composite got lost in the video conversion.
-
The Wii is a completely different system with a res output much higher. Even the emus on the Wii output at 640x480. Maybe your tv has sucky composite quality too,like my Samsung.....Everything looks like ass on the Samsung composite wise except newer systems.
Anyway,like I said,Ill have my friend take some pics later this week after he gets back home and I will post them here for more comparisons
-
The Wii is a completely different system with a res output much higher. Even the emus on the Wii output at 640x480. Maybe your tv has sucky composite quality too,like my Samsung.....Everything looks like ass on the Samsung composite wise except newer systems.
Anyway,like I said,Ill have my friend take some pics later this week after he gets back home and I will post them here for more comparisons
Since the Wii is different, shouldn't it still look less than perfect if my cap card is no good with composite? My Duo's S-Video is still low res.
Like I said, the composite on about a half dozen TV's I tried looks like that compared to the S-Video.
I just tried it out on my brother's Sony Wega and it was the same deal. The composite looks like it has a grey transparency over it. However, his larger (32" - 36") screen seemed to reduce much of the flickery dithering effects.
-
I believe Keranu had a problem capping composite from one of his systems,but the others were fine on his cap card.
Not only that,your comparing composite out from the Wii,a system that produces a higher res and was built in 2006,with higher grade components for composite output,running a game in emulation on a 256 bit graphics chip.
That and this is like saying every composite signal should be at the same strength and interpreted the exact same on any and every product,and in a perfect world it would be,but its not a perfect world,and every tv model uses different chips for its comb filters for composite input,and cap cards are very much like this also,some of them having very weak comb filters because they are mainly designed to cap s-video quality and are designed to be compatible with composite. You can take a composite signal and use it on 2 different tvs,one that is built to do very good composite,and one thats just made to be compatible with it. Ones built to be compatible tend to do really well with newer electronics like Dreamcast,PS 2 and Gamecube on up,and dvd players,and tend to look average with older electronics like VCRs,composite laserdisc players and older game systems.
These days it is getting harder to find a tv that produces good picture quality off of a composite signal of a older system. So you saying composite looks like ass on all your tvs just tells me your tvs suck at composite,and are prob best left doing s-video work. It seems like your trying to turn this into a debate like your experience dictates everyone else's with composite,which it doesn't,and every ones set up is different and their milage will vary picture wise. What would be cool is for everyone to post pics of their system running a game to show their pic quality. I know this is kinda hard compared to using a cap card,but were not supposed to be talking about cap cards here,not everyone plays their game systems on cap cards,as most use Tvs.
-
I believe Keranu had a problem capping composite from one of his systems,but the others were fine on his cap card.
Not only that,your comparing composite out from the Wii,a system that produces a higher res and was built in 2006,with higher grade components for composite output,running a game in emulation on a 256 bit graphics chip.
That and this is like saying every composite signal should be at the same strength and interpreted the exact same on any and every product,and in a perfect world it would be,but its not a perfect world,and every tv model uses different chips for its comb filters for composite input,and cap cards are very much like this also,some of them having very weak comb filters because they are mainly designed to cap s-video quality and are designed to be compatible with composite. You can take a composite signal and use it on 2 different tvs,one that is built to do very good composite,and one thats just made to be compatible with it. Ones built to be compatible tend to do really well with newer electronics like Dreamcast,PS 2 and Gamecube on up,and dvd players,and tend to look average with older electronics like VCRs,composite laserdisc players and older game systems.
These days it is getting harder to find a tv that produces good picture quality off of a composite signal of a older system. So you saying composite looks like ass on all your tvs just tells me your tvs suck at composite,and are prob best left doing s-video work. It seems like your trying to turn this into a debate like your experience dictates everyone else's with composite,which it doesn't,and every ones set up is different and their milage will vary picture wise. What would be cool is for everyone to post pics of their system running a game to show their pic quality. I know this is kinda hard compared to using a cap card,but were not supposed to be talking about cap cards here,not everyone plays their game systems on cap cards,as most use Tvs.
Most of the TV's I've played Duo's on don't have S-Video.
But if most TV's can't do the Duo composite justice, then shouldn't most people expect the washed out picture anyway?
The whole point of the Wii vs TG-16 video composite comparison was to illustrate the difference between the two systems. As you said, the Wii is moderner and more hi-tech.
The Duo composite still looks nice and I wouldn't have thought that it could get much better until I got the S-Video mod.
-
I took some pictures of my TV screen with my digital camera (at a slight angle). I am not the best photographer in the world, and the exposure setting may be a little off. Plus I took the pictures as JPEG instead of RAW and I resized them and compressed them as JPEG again, so take that as you will. Here is the page I set up with rollover pics:
Clicky clicky to see da rollover pics!! (http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/turbovideo/swap.html)
The same TV was used for both composite and component, and the settings on the TV were not adjusted between pics. Yes, component (from RGB) is brighter.
-
Really it looks like your total contrast on everything itself is higher. Some people like that alot,some people like a mid contrast more,with a lower black level as per THX settings. I heard the contrast issue was commonplace when you tap RGB off of the Pc engine,and you have to play with the signals to get it how you want it,briter or darker.
Your pics are fine btw.
-
Actually I think they are a bit overexposed because some of the details seem lost in the component screens.
PS - Contrast (or Picture) adjusts the whites. Brightness adjusts the blacks.
-
I took some pictures of my TV screen with my digital camera (at a slight angle). I am not the best photographer in the world, and the exposure setting may be a little off. Plus I took the pictures as JPEG instead of RAW and I resized them and compressed them as JPEG again, so take that as you will. Here is the page I set up with rollover pics:
Clicky clicky to see da rollover pics!! (http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/turbovideo/swap.html)
The same TV was used for both composite and component, and the settings on the TV were not adjusted between pics. Yes, component (from RGB) is brighter.
It's hard to fully guage the composite shots because of the darkness, but I can see the blue stripes in the brown gradients and the component shots sure do look nice and are much clearer.
I took some photos earlier when trying out FW on my bro's TV, but I'm the worst photographer and thought that the few usable pics that kinda turned out weren't accurate enough to post.
But after browsing Chris Covell's composite vs rgb screenshot page again, and seeing someone else is also posting their results, I now feel confident show the couple pics I was able to match up(but they're not professionally lined up like Joe's :oops:)-
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/f.html
-
Actually I think they are a bit overexposed because some of the details seem lost in the component screens.
PS - Contrast (or Picture) adjusts the whites. Brightness adjusts the blacks.
As I said
some people like a mid contrast more,with a lower black level as per THX settings.
On 2 of the 3 tvs here,and 2 of the 5 vga monitors brightness is listed as"blackness" or "black level" and not brightness,which is more correct and fitting,cause as you said,it adjust the blacks. THX settings tend to require you to really lower your blackness levels alot,which is totally fine with me because 2 of the 3 tvs and the 3 main vga monitors I use have darkglass. I got really picky about this after getting into laser disc collecting and started buying only darkglass monitors or tvs..
-
Interesting links, Joe and Black.
For Joe's pics: The component seems a lot brighter, but the composite pics look unusual dark. Maybe it's just the camera but it seems like it shouldn't be that dark to begin with.
For Black's pics: Call me crazy, but I think the composite actually looks better since it blends the dithering and makes the game look more colorful, even though the colors aren't as vibrant. A really good example of this is looking at the darker shade on the mountains.
-
Man, how do you guys take such good pictures off the TV? I've tried that myself and it just looks like crap every time.
-
Man, how do you guys take such good pictures off the TV? I've tried that myself and it just looks like crap every time.
Good question.
-
I put it on a tripod, put the camera on a two second timer, press da button, switch to component, press da button again. All of this happens when the lights in my room are off and the TV is the only light source.
Also, I think the composite being dark may be the result of the way my TV handles composite. Well actually that composite is converted into s-video by the JVC switcher, and the NES composite doesn't seem dark. I wonder...
I'll try to take a couple more pics and adjust the composite so the brightness level is more even with my component. That would be more fair I think. And requests as to what games I should take pictures of?
Black_Tiger... It might be the JPEG compression of the pic, but I think I can see a tiny little bit of blue color bleed in the dude's legs on your s-video pics.
-
And requests as to what games I should take pictures of?
J.J. and Jeff :mrgreen: . Actually anything with a lot of dithering would be best, like Strip Fighter II if you have that (rare game).
-
Interesting links, Joe and Black.
For Joe's pics: The component seems a lot brighter, but the composite pics look unusual dark. Maybe it's just the camera but it seems like it shouldn't be that dark to begin with.
For Black's pics: Call me crazy, but I think the composite actually looks better since it blends the dithering and makes the game look more colorful, even though the colors aren't as vibrant. A really good example of this is looking at the darker shade on the mountains.
The composite pics all turned out way better than the S-Video photos, since I did the S-Video ones first and sorta figured out what I was doing towards the end. If you saw them both running in person, you probably wouldn't prefer the composite overall.
But if you like detail getting blended out, then the Virtual Console games are just for you. :P
Man, how do you guys take such good pictures off the TV? I've tried that myself and it just looks like crap every time.
Like I said earlier, they pretty much all turned out like crap. I was lucky enough to get those two pics of each to turn out well enough.
I just followed the instructions I remember from the first year Nintendo Power comic: turn out all the lights and sit the camera on a pile of stuff with a level surface on top. Which meant I cradled my bro's Xbox360 box on my knees as I tried to squat in front of the TV set. :wink: I also had to figure out the hard way to start a real game and pause it before snapping photos. :P
I put it on a tripod, put the camera on a two second timer, press da button, switch to component, press da button again. All of this happens when the lights in my room are off and the TV is the only light source.
Also, I think the composite being dark may be the result of the way my TV handles composite. Well actually that composite is converted into s-video by the JVC switcher, and the NES composite doesn't seem dark. I wonder...
The composite of my Duo/Turbo systems always appears extra bright and washed out, like it's being displayed on a crappy projection TV or something.
Black_Tiger... It might be the JPEG compression of the pic, but I think I can see a tiny little bit of blue color bleed in the dude's legs on your s-video pics.
It could be, but all the S-Video photos turned out with extra glowing colors than they appeared on the screen. Especially that big vagina. I know I didn't hold the camera very steady with the S-Video pics...
Man, how do you guys take such good pictures off the TV? I've tried that myself and it just looks like crap every time.
Good question.
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/photo.jpg)
-
Here are some more comparison rollover pics I took:
http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/turbovideo/swap2.html
I don't have JJ & Jeff or Strip Fighter, but the Fantasy Zone comparison has lots of dithering!
-
Those are alot better,esp the Fantasy Zone pic,because it shows the problems,not just color wise,that composite gives compared to RGB..
-
(http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/photo.jpg)
So awesome, thanks! That's actually what I usually do when I take pictures of my TV. Image saved :mrgreen: .
Here are some more comparison rollover pics I took:
http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/turbovideo/swap2.html
I don't have JJ & Jeff or Strip Fighter, but the Fantasy Zone comparison has lots of dithering!
Maybe you really do have to see it in real life, but the differences are very small, in my opinion. It just seems like things are a tad brighter and sharper in component. I don't mean to be an All-American hero here (even though I am), but I say component is not worth it if that's how much it improves :D . Also people can call me crazy here, but I thought some of the colors actually looked better in composite on Joe's site, especially the Legendary Axe.
-
The component is brighter and therefore my pics of them are a tad overexposed. If I change the shutter I get a giant bar across the screen when I take pics. Also, did you not notice the giant vertical bars in the clouds in Fantasy Zone? They flicker back and forth like crazy. Also the stem of the flowers towards the bottom of the screen are pretty messed up in composite. It is definitely worth it for someone who appreciates video quality. Definitely not worth it for people who don't care and/or can't notice.
-
I noticed the clouds in Fantasy Zone and that kind of stuff doesn't really bother me. In fact, sometimes it looks kinda cool :D .
-
Just what makes composite so "american"? :P
-
Just what makes composite so "american"? :P
In general, I think Americans tend to be late adopters when it comes to consumer technology. Being late adopters isn't always bad (hell, I rarely buy 1st generation models), but certain things make so much more sense... i.e. the metric system!
-
Just what makes composite so "american"? :P
Because Americans don't need no stinkin' RGB :D .
-
God yeah I wished they would have tought metric when I was in high school, to this day I can't wrap my head around shit measured in metric.
-
The component is brighter and therefore my pics of them are a tad overexposed. If I change the shutter I get a giant bar across the screen when I take pics. Also, did you not notice the giant vertical bars in the clouds in Fantasy Zone? They flicker back and forth like crazy. Also the stem of the flowers towards the bottom of the screen are pretty messed up in composite. It is definitely worth it for someone who appreciates video quality. Definitely not worth it for people who don't care and/or can't notice.
The problem with RGB is that it's sometimes too clean and clear, and it can appear lifeless. There are computers/consoles I have that clearly look better in composite/rf than in RGB, simply because of all the dirt on the screen. This might not apply to the PC Engine though. What I am looking for in my mod is a picture quality that is as good as what people had back in the day, not what is considered the best now. And since no-one had RGB then, I guess that would be A/V.
-
God yeah I wished they would have tought metric when I was in high school, to this day I can't wrap my head around shit measured in metric.
Metric's a lot easier to learn than imperial, since it all makes sense. Once you figure that much out, all there is to learn is the vocabulary (deci, milli, hexa and litre, gram, metre, etc).
Although Canada's officially metric, most people are comfortable measuring in pounds, miles and feet. Just don't ask the average person here how many imperial units make up the next unit. :wink:
-
The problem with RGB is that it's sometimes too clean and clear, and it can appear lifeless. There are computers/consoles I have that clearly look better in composite/rf than in RGB, simply because of all the dirt on the screen. This might not apply to the PC Engine though. What I am looking for in my mod is a picture quality that is as good as what people had back in the day, not what is considered the best now. And since no-one had RGB then, I guess that would be A/V.
I agree. I think something we should keep in mind when it comes to these older consoles is what setups the developers used to design the games. I'm sure the developers tested their games on standard TVs using RF or composite back then so maybe they designed the graphics with RF or composite in mind so it would look nicer on the TV.
-
Personally I would have to side with Keranu on this, I think composite or S-Video is good enough for anything 16-bit or older since all those old system relied somewhat on the video output to smooth the graphics out (like the dithering in Genesis games). RGB just looks too blocky and sterile, it makes them look like old computer games and they lose part of what made them special as console games.
-
Ditto on everything but the Genesis composite,since the Genesis offered RGB out normally without needing a hack,and that there was optional s-video breakout boxes made,I think its ideal to use something other then composite on that system if you can. I used to be fine with Genesis composite back when I was younger and used average tv sets but that no longer suites me these days.
BTW Joe my son said he read your KPJ AES died a ugly death. Sucks to be you man,sucks to be you. Contact OSG or Razoola,maybe they can help without you paying tons to Kenny again. I fixed two consolized MVS systems like a year and a half ago that both I think came from Kenny possibly. The problem was the AD chip on the encoders were not soldered down well and had to be redone. The consolization looked like Kennys stuff,coulda been Arcade Kingdom too,and the encoders were Neobitz junk. The problem was either Kurtz didn't solder the chips down good,or they were the do it yourself kits and the person doing the consolization did a shoddy job putting them together.
-
If you guys had RGB you'd like it.
The Neo Geo is a horribly built system. The Genesis has always been more reliable.
-
If you guys had RGB you'd like it.
The Neo Geo is a horribly built system. The Genesis has always been more reliable.
I've never come across a dead Neo MVS or AES unless it was abused,killed by power surge,or poorly modded,or modded part went bad. I can't really agree with you that they are poorly built because I never had a MVS or AES break on me personally. The 2 slot I use now has lasted years of use and still stands strong.
-
I guess I'm not talking just about reliability, actually. On a lot of the units, the composite sucks even worse than the Genesis, but on units where the composite is good, the RGB sucks. In fact from what I know the RGB sucks on most of them. They just couldn't get it right.
Oh wait, I forgot... this forum HATES RGB.
Also I've seen a lot of carts that have graphical glitches in them where they aren't supposed to have any, like small dots or lines, etc (mine happens on the select screen of Fatal Fury 2 and in the middle of the first part of stage 2 in Magician Lord). No matter how I clean them they won't go away.
-
Ive only run into 3 "glitch" carts ever,and they were pretty abused. I completely agree with you on the composite/RGB probs with the AES. The higher number models deff had better composite,but their RGB was horrible and needed tunning. The older run systems with bad composite,I totally hate those units. They may have do able RGB,but if a person who can't get a RGB monitor got stuck with one of those things he/she was in for bad times.
-
Oh wait, I forgot... this forum HATES RGB.
I'd say this forum is more of an even split. The American users don't really care for RGB while the European users are all for it. Probably because they can't play PCE in PAL and may as well do the RGB mod since it's better.
-
Also in Europe they are used to RGB for almost everything. They don't have to put up with composite.
Mike... I suppose it is possible that my Magician Lord cart was abused at some point by someone, looks to be in good shape, though. And my Fatal Fury 2 came from Japan and was in pristine shape. What kind of abuse would cause this? They don't interfere with gameplay, only with displays on the screen, and then only a small part of the display.
-
Also in Europe they are used to RGB for almost everything. They don't have to put up with composite.
As Mike said, it's probably because they don't want to stick with crappy PAL.
-
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
-
Well,Sometimes the carts look fine but the cases can be heavy damaged. This can give in to clues like the game being dropped,inside the case,causing shock damage. I had a Jap FF2 cart that was like this. I had a Sengoku MVS that was average looking,but the box took alot of damage. The cart had same probs as FF2 did,pixels in certain area of screen and never goes away. Very annoying. I figured it was prob dropped alot in its box. other cart like this was a AES Sengoku,with no case and def abuse all over it. The case held up,but I think shock just wore it down. It worked,but same probs as above,but in diff area of screen.
-
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz,and so unless the tv they are using will display 525-line/60 Hz NTSC in full color,it ain't gonna happen. There are tv monitors that will do both,but are expensive last I checked. Otherwise it is not typical and the majority can not do this. This is why high end Laser Disc players released in the UK that could play Pal and NTSC disc used scart support to run the NTSC disc in RGB,and this was the only way they would play without problems. The problems with this was that LD was designed around anolog composite and the conversion to RGB ended up actually looking worse. It basically was a feature on high end Pal players to allow them a way to play NTSC movies because in the UK they didn't get near the selection Asia and the USA got. Composite was out of the question because Pal tvs did not do NTSC 60hz signal trough RF, composite or s-video.
-
How would this affect certain pixels in only certain areas, I wonder? I would think because the Neo is getting a bad connection to some part of the cart, but I guess that's not the case. I wish the carts were smaller than a VHS cassette and would be less susceptible to this type of thing, but back then they were big so they'd impress wimpy Genesis and SNES users compared to their tiny carts.
-
Shock from being dropped can damage rom chips. Ive trown Genesis EA sports titles against the wall when I managed a game store,back when I would get bored,and they would still look fine,but wouldn't work after trying to boot them up.
-
Oh yeah? Well I've cried, screamed, thrown tantrums all the while stomping my foot on a Genesis cartridge to crack it open. Cart worked fine for being smashed by such a baby.
-
Yea back when 7th Saga came out on Snes my friend Alex rented it from Blockbuster. He totally hated it so we trew it over and over again at the kitchen floor,submerged it hot water and tried it couple days later and it still worked,even held its saves,amazing stuff. Still hate that game myself.
Problem with all this is you cant compare Genesis to Neo Geo in ability to damage fairly,cause most Genesis carts had very few chips on the pcb to damage,where as a Neo Cart used much much more and 2 pcbs. This doesn't mean Neo Carts were built cheaply,but I mean in terms of abuse,if you have more parts to abuse,you have more chances of causing damage chip wise or pcb wise.
Question? Since you had a Unibios did you ever do a rom check on your glitch carts? I was thinking the Unibios can check for bad roms?
Also,there are a fer MVS carts that have graphics bugs no matter what. Fatal Fury 1,in the backgrounds,and Ninja Commando as the game scrolls upwards are a couple of good examples. There are others that have probs,but those always stick fresh in my memory the most.
-
I only have one MVS cart that is a conversion. The rest are AES. Is the "ROM check" where you hold A, B and D at startup? I'm sure I've tried it, but I don't know if I've done that on those two carts. Magician Lord is cheap, so it shouldn't be hard to get one to replace it, probably brand new even. I have no desire to replace Fatal Fury 2 since I feel the PC Engine SCD version is much more playable. They could have secured those PCBs inside the cart better. Lots of people don't know that they are supposed to rattle around like a cheap Chinese product. Not even sure why they need two PCBs.
Also KPJ ever charged me much for what he did, and all he asks is that I pay shipping on this current problem.
-
Thats really good of him then if he wont charge to fix it.I don't know him personally,from what I do know he sounds better then Dean and Kurtz when it comes to quality work,but I have also heard that at pricing he is the most evil bastard out there which is why I recommended contacting the other 2 first..
Like I said,also,the 2 consolized 1-slots I fixed,they coulda been KPJ stuff,or even ArcadeKingdom. At that time period I only knew of KPJ consolizing 1-slots and actually selling them.
If KPJ fixes the prob for you,you should give him some extra kudos for it on the Neo forums,because I'm sure he could use it there. Most of the bad stuff said about him I ever read originated there. It could be the bios went bad. Wouldn't be the first time its happened. wire coulda came loose too. Who knows.
Umm as far as the rom test,I'm not sure how to access it,but I read the Unibios does it. I never used them before. I'm pretty stuck on not altering hardware more then necessary so changing out the bios on a Neo is not something I'm willing to do. Even if its on a socketed MVS board,I just wont do it because I don't care to.
-
The Universe Bios kicks ass. Gives every game a sound test feature! The way he did it (just by my looking at it) was to solder a socket on top of an existing chip (original BIOS chip?) and then put the Universe Bios into that socket. Nothing seems out of whack or disconnected or shorting that I can see.
-
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz...
PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards. There are such things as PAL-60 and PAL-50 (the more common broadcast standard). My Super Play magazine from 1992 mentions how many TVs being sold can handle SCART as well as 60Hz video, so I'm sure there were TVs that could handle 60Hz in Europe in the 90s. Even if a TV couldn't handle NTSC encoding, it could still display it as a 60hz greyscale video signal.
I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB. Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics. I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing. Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB. Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.
-
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz...
PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards. There are such things as PAL-60 and PAL-50 (the more common broadcast standard). My Super Play magazine from 1992 mentions how many TVs being sold can handle SCART as well as 60Hz video, so I'm sure there were TVs that could handle 60Hz in Europe in the 90s. Even if a TV couldn't handle NTSC encoding, it could still display it as a 60hz greyscale video signal.
My answer to all of that is:
PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards.
There is more involved then color encoding,the resolution is different as is the screen refresh rate. This is one of the reasons why older game systems displayed in letterbox type format in Pal and ran at 50 frames per second instead of 60 FPS and full screen.
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz,and so unless the tv they are using will display 525-line/60 Hz NTSC in full color,it ain't gonna happen. There are tv monitors that will do both,but are expensive last I checked. Otherwise it is not typical and the majority can not do this.
The majority being tvs made and sold from late 80ies untill mid to late 90ies that do not support NTSC 60hz and def not Pal-60 as a feature.
Pal-60 did not begin use in Tvs until the DVD era and Dreamcast era gaming wise and was actually originally intended for DVD use,not games,and its not the typical broadcast standard there still nor is it the standard for game systems,as there are still titles released that do not support it,and even the Wii VC doesn't use Pal-60.( It can do it but no one uses the function :P )
I can not confirm myself that Pal-60 does or does not work with composite or S-Video NTSC 60hz signal old ass game systems.
People I talked to in the UK about laserdisc stuff told me it may not work,so I can not comment on this by experience.
NTSC/60Hz capable PAL Tvs were not common until mid 90ies in europe and still not totally mainstream. The UK mag 3DO Magazine used to have ads for the best ones available I had ever seen. There were expensive RGB SCART monitors sold before then that did accept NTSC video input along with Pal,but RGB scart monitors sold like this were not sold or marketed as normal Pal 50hz tvs. RGB isn't the same thing as Pal,and Scart is a play on RGB and does the same thing when the scart cable carries the RGB signals. Scart also carries other signals,audio,composite ect ect...
If possible,can you dig up the ads you have,and scan and post them? That would be cool to look at :) .
-
There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).
Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite? I believe they can.
Yep. No problems there. The TV will automatically switch over to NTSC mode whenever it gets that signal if you're using composite or RGB.
S-video is pretty much unsupported here. Many TVs won't take the signal at all, it just gets converted to composite. Sometimes one of the two scart connectors are s-video compliant, but you'll need a scart - rca/s-video converter (a little box thing that you plug in, can be bought for about 5 bucks) in order to be able to connect the s-video cable.
-
Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate :).
I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB. Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics. I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing. Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB. Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.
Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues :).
1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"
2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?
As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you :). Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind." Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."
Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.
Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!
Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.
I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words :) ).
Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.
That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.
Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console. :)
There is purity in impurity :).
/rant
-
I second everything stevek666 says. I used to play games on a certain computer via an emulator, but once I saw the original machine up and running in rf, I couldn't go back. Rf just had so much more life in it. I think the same applies here with the PC Engine - so it's gonna be composite for me.
-
You people are shocking me. :dance:
-
Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use :P .
-
There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).
Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. :)
-
I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of. I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now. Is S-Video possible on the Genesis? I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.
-
Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate :).
I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB. Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics. I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing. Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB. Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.
Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues :).
1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"
2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?
As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you :). Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind." Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."
Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.
Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!
Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.
I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words :) ).
Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.
That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.
Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console. :)
There is purity in impurity :).
/rant
Yeah, but S-Video makes classic console games look blocky just like RGB.
Although I like 'sharp' images with classic consoles and don't think that emulated screen shots look like crap, I'd be happy with composite like the Duo's if the color didn't get ruined.
Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.
But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.
And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?
Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?
Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.
Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use :P .
Dithering is still a nice way to blend graphics, particularly straight gradients. It's like crosshatching with pen and ink.
The way it's been explained to me, the PC Engine often uses dithering in bg gradients since it doesn't have the high color bg limit that something like the SNES does.
Even colorful arcade games meant for RGB still use dithering.
Plus, we all know how lazy developers can't be bothered to program in truly colorful graphics where as someone like Mr Covell who doesn't have a big budget from a publisher or official dev kits puts many of the big guys to shame.
Even a heavily dithered game like Lords of Thunder Sega-CD still looks beautiful with a clear picture and the average person would have a hard time noticing the real difference between it and the dithered-lite Turbo/PCE version.
Do you really think that the developer never wanted you to witness the horror of this bg's gradient in anything other than RF/composite-
(http://superpcenginegrafx.com/img/gulliverboysc.gif)
And what about the aesthetically sterile and stripped of life final frames of this monstrosity-
(http://superpcenginegrafx.com/img/ys4sc.gif)
-
There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).
Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. :)
Oh I should've noted that. I was talking about regular, non-HD CRT TVs.
-
I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of. I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now. Is S-Video possible on the Genesis? I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.
Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.
-
I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of. I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now. Is S-Video possible on the Genesis? I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.
Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.
I have a Pal Megadrive modded for S-Video and just like the Duo, it looks just about as 'blocky' as RGB.
But I love the vibrant colors. :)
-
I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of. I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now. Is S-Video possible on the Genesis? I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.
Akumajo Dracula X is about the only game I had probs with in s-video on the Saturn. It looked sharper,but in s-video mode there was some weird problems. You'll notice it if you start the game and right before you go to Dracula for the rein-actment battle,in the sky,you will see problems. I can't really explain it but it was present on 3 tested systems.
Everything else I ran in s-video on Saturn was just awesome.
-
:) This is all in good fun :)
Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.
Using my "test" of hanging artwork in your home: would you prefer character sprites and backgrounds as they are displayed in an unfiltered emulator + computer monitor? Despite the fact that they are displayed in all of their digital, unadulterated glory, they do not look nearly as attractive or as aesthetically pleasing as composite / s-video + television, IMO. This is subjective: what style of art to you prefer? See below: I expand on how technology limitations and art are inter-related.
But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.
This is unfortunate, but like I said, this is still what I prefer. Film (as in Hollywood and beyond) have technical issues as well when it comes to scrolling cameras past horizontal and vertical patterns (moire effect) ... it's not enough for me to get annoyed, though.
And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?
Actually, this is still a problem in RGB. This is still a problem on computer monitors. I blame any developer who is foolish enough to use 1, I and l in a password system. This is not the fault of RF / composite, but the passworld system.
The modern equivalent would be a web developer who doesn't do any usability testing ... only to discover that folks can't distinguish the differences between "X" "x" or "G" "5" "S" s" in confirmation codes they are expected to enter (see #12 on this page (http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2007/01/the_top_ten_stu.html).)
A visual confirmation graphic system is a good thing, but many are too difficult to read. For example, this is what I got when trying to create a Yahoo! account. Is that an uppercase “X”? Is the last character an “s,” “5,” or “S”? Maybe this only affects old people like me, but it seems that all one merely has to prove is that you’re not a robot so a little bit of fuzziness should be good enough. For example, if the code is “ghj1lK” and someone who enters “ghj11K” is close enough.
Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?
Re-read my post: I was specifically talking about older consoles designed for Rf / composite / s-video. I hold arcade games to a different standard, since they have a different medium... just as I hold computer games to a different standard.
In other words: I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.
Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.
I know what you are saying :). My post, though, was an attempt to make you re-consider how you define "best" (technically vs. aesthetically). If I understand you correctly, you find "technical superiority" to correlate with "aesthetic superiority".
I was arguing otherwise, though I clearly stated that our opinions on aesthetics are completely subjective.
We all define beauty in different ways.
I'm sure many of you will cringe when you hear about the old television I often use to play games: the screen is convex, like a bubble, which distorts the image. Plus, it doesn't have as many scan lines as high-end CRT tv's. Despite the low-resolution fish-tank technology, the games displayed on this ancient TV are gorgeous...
:) Don't hate me :)
-
**slaps forehead**
It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB. Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.
To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV... RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES! It looks nothing like an emulator. Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject. RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite. In fact you'll have less resolution with composite. Why do they use dithering? It's not because of composite, it's because the Turbo/PC Engine's color palette is too wimpy to have solid colors in each area... THEY HAVE NO CHOICE! I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well. It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color. Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart. Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad! I personally think that looks gawdawful. It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers. RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well. Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there? Yeah, I'm sure they did. :roll: You just keep on believing that. And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games. I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness of the picture. I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument. In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like. I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.
Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.
-
They're composite fanboys. :wink: Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons). :wink:
-
I must reply to the film having a moire effect. Film does not have moire. Video does.
-
I must reply to the film having a moire effect. Film does not have moire. Video does.
Digital photography and film transferred to video can certainly can have the moire effect. The point, though, is that even this unfortunate event (moire effect) is not enough of a reason to hate RF / composite / s-video artifacts in video games, IMO. I've never played a game and said "Oh, the shimmering! Oh the moire effect! Oh the horror!" :) Seriously, this stuff doesn't detract from gameplay.
-
All in good fun :):
**slaps forehead**
It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB. Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.
No, you keep missing the point. I don't hate RGB. I am not anti-RGB. Rather, and take the time to let this sink in: I am arguing that RGB /component is not the end-all and be-all of video game aesthetics. :) Get it?
I am putting forth a "theory" about digital art. See below where I quote myself (toward the end of this post).
To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV... RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES! It looks nothing like an emulator. Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject. RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite. In fact you'll have less resolution with composite.
If you noticed, I took the time to distinguish between video output methods and the types of displays throughout this thread. When I discuss emulators, I do so to highlight my own personal aesthetic tastes and create an "extreme" benchmark of digital purity. I thought it was self-evident, but I have been using a continuum ranging from RF + standard TV <---> emulator + computer monitor. Where does beauty begin and end on this continuum? We all have different tastes. :)
It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers. RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well. Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there? Yeah, I'm sure they did. :roll:
Well, this is related to our other point about the moire effect. As I said, this is unfortunate, but it isn't a deal breaker. See my prior comment!
You just keep on believing that. And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games. I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness of the picture. I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument. In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like. I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.
Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.
Again, you don't get it! I'll be lame and quote myself:
I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.
Joe, re-read my prior response to Black_Tiger. I think I explained where I was coming from.
Peace, love and harmony :)
-
I completely understand what Stevek666 had to say, in that the aesthetics of the matter are completely subjective. RGB is technically superior, but what each person will prefer is up to him.
As for me, RGB does NOT look sterile. I remember playing games like Pac-Man and Pole-Position in the arcades (remember, ancient technology), and the pure blues of the maze, and especially the solid pixels of everything in Pole Position really were appealing to me. Playing the same on a TV is a 'little' bit distracting with all the blurring that goes on between saturated colours, and so I prefer RGB for any system. And the shimmering with dithered/striped graphics on systems like the PCE, NES, and SMS is distracting.
But as Hamlet said, "The Play's the Thing", and something like RGB/Composite is not entirely important if you are enjoying yourself with a great game. It's just that with RGB my eyes get some enjoyment too.
-
They're composite fanboys. :wink: Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons). :wink:
I know you're just kidding :). And I think your post is damn funny :)!
But Joe, poor Joe, will think you're being literal!
-
I'm not really sure if using the PS3 in your argument is going to get you anywhere. I love RGB and despise the PS3,just as I despised the PS2,and PS1. I've messed with the PS3,I don't care for it. Its not worth the asking price. I owned a PS1 and PS2. I never liked either system hardware wise,and only liked a few titles for each system,typically the Namco titles. Any of the other titles on PS2 that I wanted I ended up buying the pc ports of them.
As for DVD, I never liked it or disliked it as a movie format. I love it for data and file storage.
The only actual movie format I ever liked was the Laser Disc format.
I completely understand the reasons as to why they want composite and the old feel to it,and you really shouldn't knock them for it. Some people are perfectly happy with what they have,never feel like complaining,and don't feel like investing the extra $200-400 just for a improved video signal. To some its simply not worth it,to others it is. I think they understand the benefits of RGB, I mean you posted pics that did show improvements over composite Joe.
-
Maybe not directly related, but the "too clean" argument does have some merit. I recall hooking up my satellite box to my 32" Sony WEGA I had at the time using SVHS connections, and since it was "too clean", it was easy to see ugly compression artifacts from satellite signals and DVDs and so forth (but they were barely visible with composite). Now, I know in that case the problem lied with the crappy video _source_, but nevertheless, the whole "maybe it wasn't intended to be that clean" argument does have some merit.
That said, I kept still kept the SVHS connection on, because overall, it did look better when the source was good.
...if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.
And I'm pretty sure I'd agree with that. Even though I don't have RGB, I'm sure I'd like it, and will probably go that route once I'm all set up somewhere to finally have my own "entertainment room".
Overall, I think the composite guys are generally saying, it doesn't matter _all that much_ - which I think is true for most average gamers. For me, I can't imagine the thought of playing consoles that support stereo in mono, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys that don't care one way or the other.
-
Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist. I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB. I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me. What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade? It's hooked up in RGB. Do you think a real NES looks better at home? How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man? Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB. The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would. I think the key thing here is nostalgia. You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present. That's gotta be it.
And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB. Not sure where that figure came from.
As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video. Film is not even in the equation. It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS. Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line. Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.
-
Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist. I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB. I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me. What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade? It's hooked up in RGB. Do you think a real NES looks better at home? How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man? Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB. The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would. I think the key thing here is nostalgia. You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present. That's gotta be it.
And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB. Not sure where that figure came from.
As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video. Film is not even in the equation. It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS. Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line. Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.
Actually Joe, as most of these people who love composite,like Keranu,prob only have tvs in their game room doing composite,and maybe s-video,they are going to need
1. A: RGB monitor. A new custom built Wells garner in a box RGB monitor can run around $400-900 depending on the size of the CGA tube OR B: 25-27 inch Component capable TV set that is of good quality. $200-240.
2.RGB mods for every old system,that does not offer RGB out by AV port,price will vary depending on system and how much work is involved. Most people who do not feel good about their soldering skills are going to have to pay someone to do the RGB mods,and that can get expensive depending on who does the mod for them. Most anytime I have seen someone offer to do a Pc-Engine RGB mod they usually charge $40-70.
3. A RGB to Component video converter if they plan to use a component Tv. This will run $50-80 depending on the quality of the item.
4. New cables for all this. Lets be cheap and say $10 for the cheap stuff.
Lets do a add up for a couple of systems and a component set up.
We will use the minimum prices.
Tv 200
Couple of systems modded for RGB 40x2=80
RGB to Component box 40
Cables 10.
All together before any type of sales tax is $330. This is doing it on a cheapskate budget using the lowest quality parts available and hoping you know someone who will do the mods for 40 bucks each on lets say,umm, a Pc-Engine and a TG-16 or Snes 2 deck.
I guess you just assumed everyone here has Component capable tv sets.
-
Yeah I was pretty sure component was the norm these days. I see component on more TV sets (SDTV) than s-video. Many Sony SDTVs don't even have s-video any more. My TV is 20 inches (maybe 21?) and was definitely less than $200. And before that I had a 13 inch TV that just happened to have component, which is why I bought the SCART RGB to YUV transcoder. Then I bought SCART RGB cables. The only system I had to mod was the TurboGrafx-16 CD attachment unit. The TurboGrafx itself remains unmodded. As far as 10 SCART RGB cables? I only have 5... Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx, Saturn, NeoGeo (teh future iz now... MEGA SHOCK!). Oh yeah I had to have an RGB bypass done since SNK was pathetic when they built the NeoGeo. All in all I'd say I spent around $200 for my setup, TV not included. As you say, it's not for everybody, but that in no way means composite is aesthetically better unless for nostalgic reasons.
As for all of the other systems, they are hooked up to an HDTV since they can provide 480p or better. And they all have component cables.
-
Whoa, whoa, things are getting a little crazy around here. Lets all cool down. :dance:
It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB. Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.
You're right, I haven't experienced RGB on an older console. However I never said I flat out didn't like RGB and I appreciate what it offers. However as stated multiple times already: 1. ) I like what composite offers already and have no problems with it, 2. ) I prefer to keep my older consoles intact and untouched, 3. ) I do not want to spend a lot of money just to play my games in RGB. It's all taste, my friend, no need to get angry.
This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine :) .
RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.
I might have to see that in person to take your word for it, but in the RGB and s-video pictures I've seen posted in this thread, I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link (http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/f.html) for a good example in s-video and this pic (http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/sf2turbo.jpg) for a good example in RGB.
I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well. It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color. Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart. Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!
I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.
I think the key thing here is nostalgia. You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present. That's gotta be it.
Well actually no. The reason being I never noticed these things when I was a kid playing games :mrgreen: ! In fact I haven't really noticed this whole shimmering thing until you brought it up and honestly it's nothing that bothers me. So whenever I see shimmering in the games I play now, I think of you, dear Joe :) . As for rainbow effects, those kinda look cool!
-
I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link (http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/f.html) for a good example in s-video and this pic (http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/sf2turbo.jpg) for a good example in RGB.
I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p. Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined? Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.
As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching. It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.
-
I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p. Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined? Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.
Yes, the RGB makes the dithering more defined, which in my opinion, looses the magic of the effect. And yes you are right, the RGB pictures in the most part do look worse than the composite in my opinion, however I'm not saying the RGB doesn't look good and doesn't have it's advantages, which I believe I've already stated. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say how I could never appreciate a real arcade game when I really do because as I've said before, I never said I hate RGB. Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.
As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching. It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.
Wikipedia, even though it's not a source I necessarily like to use, has a pretty good article on dithering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dithering). If you go down to the "Digital photography and image processing" section, you can read the following:
"Dithering is a technique used in computer graphics to create the illusion of color depth in images with a limited color palette (color quantization). In a dithered image, colors not available in the palette are approximated by a diffusion of colored pixels from within the available palette. The human eye perceives the diffusion as a mixture of the colors within it (see color vision). Dithering is analogous to the halftone technique used in printing. Dithered images, particularly those with relatively few colors, can often be distinguished by a characteristic graininess, or speckled appearance."
So while dithering doesn't technically create a new color, it gives the illusion of it, which is why it's used in the first place.
-
Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows. Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.
Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.
Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB. The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.
-
Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows. Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.
Like I said, you play your Gameboy games on yours and I'll play mine on mine :) . Personally I think you have to be a videophile for the shimmering to bother you enough to mod your system.
Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.
Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB. The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.
I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying, but those arcade games are actually designed for RGB while 16-bit and earlier consoles were designed with RF / composite in mind, so each have their own kind of quality to them.
-
The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES! I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying. There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games. Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
-
The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES! I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying. There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games. Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
There was a Jamma -based TG-16 arcade machine that used modified TG-16 hardware. I lost my bid to the one and only time I saw it on ebay, but D-Lite was kind enough to scan the instructions that came with it. I don't know if he ever got around to getting the kit working, but I'm hoping one day to see this documented :). I'll reply to your other points tomorrow morning :).
You folks have completely and utterly confused every point I made in my initial post.
-
Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
I'm not sure if it was a pirated board or not, but I first played Kato Chan & Ken Chan in an arcade machine in Korea 20 some odd years ago. Like some playchoice-10 machines, a single credit bought some play time, as opposed to playing until you ran out of men.
And to keep it on topic, I have no idea whether that was in RGB or not :-k
(Dang, you beat me to the "post" button stevek666)
-
The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES! I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying. There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games. Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
Actually you're right, I'm not understanding what you are saying! At least when it comes to the PlayChoice cabinets, because I don't get the point you're trying to make with it. I know what Playchoices are and understand that arcade monitors use RGB, but I don't get how this is helping your arguement any. Are you saying I should compare the picture quality of a Playchoice cabinet with a NES running in composite? :D
-
You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite. If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well? Why would they hook it up via RGB and risk losing all of the magical properties that the dithering has? My whole point is this: If you think arcades look nice, then you'd think home consoles in RGB would look nice... as in better than composite. I can understand not wanting to spend the money on it, though.
-
Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.
It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.
-
Keep in mind that emulators on the Xbox upscale. They do not show the games in their native resolution and that is the reason for their blockiness. You can see the individual pixels via composite and RF on the real systems, lest ye forget. Of course one can ask why did all the other machines besides the NES and the PC Engine provide a direct means to get RGB out of the system, especially if composite looked so much better?
-
I remember a couple of years ago (2000?) when I had a TV that didn't support RGB. I used composite for everything I had (even PS2, etc) and I thought it looked good. When I got a new TV that HAD RGB support, I used it on the systems that supported it, liked it, had to mod my other systems so that they would support it as well, and now I can't even look at composite anymore. I think RGB would have that effect on everybody.
-
You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite. If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well?
Well,since the TV home consumer market in the USA in the 80ies mainly supported RF you were actually lucky the first Nes even offered composite out at all. As for the Play Choice 10,its arcade hardware,and on arcade hardware they use RGB,its standard. Wether it looked good picture quality wise or not I don't think really mattered,it was just cheaper to do RGB back then. A RGB monitor and arcade board in a arcade cab doesn't use what was considered back then expensive parts for RF or composite function. If composite or RF woulda been cheaper then they most likely woulda used it in the Playchoice 10 instead of RGB. I think your forgetting how expensive good quality color tvs were in the 80ies. We paid over $350 for a 19 in. Emerson that only supported RF back in 1988. My aunt and uncle in the 80ies worked for Godwins arcade distribution,and I remember how my uncle used to bitch about how the RGB tubes were really cheap compared to tvs.
He was also one of those goofs that had the magnification lens attached to his 20 inch tv to get a larger picture for years because he was too cheap to buy a newer larger tv set.
-
Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.
It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.
Composite era?
PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Famicom up to PlayStation2 is the RGB era. Everything after that is component/VGA/HDMI.
RGB SCART is 1970s technology.
When the PC-Engine and soon after the MegaDrive found their way to UK importers a pretty large % of kids I knew were using RGB monitors or RGB SCART TVs. They were readily available at the time (infact a good quality, proper low-res RGB screen is MUCH harder to find now than it was then).
Everytime I see screenshots of US gamers using composite on old 2D console games I thank the lord I had access to decent screens back then.
Do people really think the developers were designing and testing these games using a consumer TV with an RF or composite connection?
-
While Mega Drive, SNES, etc offered RGB natively, the PC Engine didn't. So I wouldn't consider it an RGB era console (whatever that means). Composite is 50's standard, by the way. :mrgreen:
-
RGB era to me (i.e. in the UK) = the time when the best possible picture for the available systems was RGB. Which is everything up to PS2 (excluding the handful of progressive PS2 titles).
Yeah you had to mod the PCE, but this was common place right from the early days of UK PCE imports. Quite a few places sold them with hardwired Scart cables.
-
RGB era to me (i.e. in the UK) = the time when the best possible picture for the available systems was RGB. Which is everything up to PS2 (excluding the handful of progressive PS2 titles).
Yeah you had to mod the PCE, but this was common place right from the early days of UK PCE imports. Quite a few places sold them with hardwired Scart cables.
I don't think I ever saw a single RGB display from a computer or console in the 80s or early 90s in anyones house. It was pretty rare in reality, at least in the UK.
-
I don't think I ever saw a single RGB display from a computer or console in the 80s or early 90s in anyones house. It was pretty rare in reality, at least in the UK.
WTF! Massive amounts of Commodore and Philips RGB screens were sold with Amigas and STs. Pretty certain some console shops even sold them (Shekhana on Tottenham Court Road??).
As for TVs, by the time I had a Super Famicom me and my brother had two cheap 14" TVs for games (one Toshiba, one Sharp) both had RGB SCART (and the Sharp is still alive and kicking to this day).
And like I said, when the PC-Engine was released RGB screens were common enough that some retailers sold the consoles RGB SCART hardwired.
-
Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.
It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.
Composite era?
PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Famicom up to PlayStation2 is the RGB era. Everything after that is component/VGA/HDMI.
RGB SCART is 1970s technology.
When the PC-Engine and soon after the MegaDrive found their way to UK importers a pretty large % of kids I knew were using RGB monitors or RGB SCART TVs. They were readily available at the time (infact a good quality, proper low-res RGB screen is MUCH harder to find now than it was then).
Everytime I see screenshots of US gamers using composite on old 2D console games I thank the lord I had access to decent screens back then.
Do people really think the developers were designing and testing these games using a consumer TV with an RF or composite connection?
You know,I'm not quite sure what the deal is with people in the UK assuming the rest of the world had scart or RGB as a easy option. Yea,Scart has been around since the late 70ies,in YOUR country,not OURS.
As for the Pc-Engine scene in the UK in the 80ies,yea it did have a good one. But I got a question,since everyone was using their Pc-Engine in RGB,does that mean everyone was doing RGB mods? I have never seen a actual RGB cable that will tap RGB off the expansion port. The 80ies may have been a RGB era for you,but for us it was NTSC composite and RF.
-
Actually it would be completely possible to build an RGB cable with a giganto-huge connector that fits on the back of the PC Engine and outputs RGB. Of course that would eliminate playing CD games. Man, NEC could have thought things through a little more when providing the outputs on their system. They were the only ones without a jack that did RGB, if you don't count the expansion bus.
-
You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite. If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well? Why would they hook it up via RGB and risk losing all of the magical properties that the dithering has? My whole point is this: If you think arcades look nice, then you'd think home consoles in RGB would look nice... as in better than composite. I can understand not wanting to spend the money on it, though.
I'm not a tech person, so I don't know how possible it is to use composite in a arcade cabinet. The point is they took their NES hardware, hooked it up in the arcade via RGB since that's what arcade games generally used and decided to make a few bucks in the arcade from kids who weren't playing NES at home. They didn't care about how the NES graphics would look on the arcade monitor :P .
I remember a couple of years ago (2000?) when I had a TV that didn't support RGB. I used composite for everything I had (even PS2, etc) and I thought it looked good. When I got a new TV that HAD RGB support, I used it on the systems that supported it, liked it, had to mod my other systems so that they would support it as well, and now I can't even look at composite anymore. I think RGB would have that effect on everybody.
For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that 8) .
Actually it would be completely possible to build an RGB cable with a giganto-huge connector that fits on the back of the PC Engine and outputs RGB. Of course that would eliminate playing CD games. Man, NEC could have thought things through a little more when providing the outputs on their system. They were the only ones without a jack that did RGB, if you don't count the expansion bus.
Why would they need to add a jack that did RGB back then? The vast majority of gamers back then were using RF, it was probably something they didn't even need to think about. :)
-
As for the Pc-Engine scene in the UK in the 80ies,yea it did have a good one. But I got a question,since everyone was using their Pc-Engine in RGB,does that mean everyone was doing RGB mods?
Yeah, a lot of importers were RGB modding the machines they sold. This was born out of necessity as much as anything else - at the time most UK TVs would not display a NTSC 3.58 signal via RF/Composite, you would either get a rolling picture or a stable but black and white one. If you bought an import Megadrive, Super Famicom, NeoGeo etc you would normally get a SCART cable with it too.
The most common mod was a hole drilled at the side of the PCE casing and running a hardwired SCART cable out of it.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1201/4128516/8612102/227244446.jpg)
I do remember seeing some where a computer ribbon cable with a scart plug on the end was fed through the gap at the rear of the machine above the interface connector (this was before the CD-ROM was released obviously).
-
For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that 8) .
I didn't spend any money on improving the video for my systems, I bought a big ass TV and used the rgb cables I previously had for all my systems (because they all provided RGB natively - Mega Drive, SNES, Saturn, etc etc).
-
The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES! I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying. There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games. Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
There was a Jamma -based TG-16 arcade machine that used modified TG-16 hardware. I lost my bid to the one and only time I saw it on ebay, but D-Lite was kind enough to scan the instructions that came with it. I don't know if he ever got around to getting the kit working, but I'm hoping one day to see this documented :). I'll reply to your other points tomorrow morning :).
You folks have completely and utterly confused every point I made in my initial post.
The Bloody Wolf arcade is basically a PC Engine.
Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? :)
I'm not sure if it was a pirated board or not, but I first played Kato Chan & Ken Chan in an arcade machine in Korea 20 some odd years ago. Like some playchoice-10 machines, a single credit bought some play time, as opposed to playing until you ran out of men.
And to keep it on topic, I have no idea whether that was in RGB or not :-k
(Dang, you beat me to the "post" button stevek666)
I once saw a SMB2 arcade like that. It looked like a total custom job.
Quote from: Joe
I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well. It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color. Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart. Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!
I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.
Although dithering is usually used to blend colors, the blending is often ruined by the composite of some TV's because often it really does blur into its own brand new color(but not the color intended).
In these cases, it's the more obvious dithering, like big strips of wire fence that you do notice.
-I've read several times here "blockiness" used to describe something perceived to be pixelated and has caused some confusion. I think some people are using 'blockiness' to describe the edges of sprites and such where others are using it to describe the pixels of shading/dithering.
When you can make out most of the pixels of a game's graphics in composite, what's really being lost in the jump to RGB/etc when you just get to make out the last 25+% of the pixels?
From what I've read of explanations of personal preference from diehard composite loving fanboys like Steve, it sounds like you guys only have a problem with the sharpness/clear image of everything above composite and simply aren't bothered by some of the unfortunate effects(like shimmering).
You guys must love all the classic compilations and VC Turbo games that give you the vibrant color of the real graphics(that you normally only see on moldy consoles through better than composite output) while blurring out all those annoying pixels.
I'm too tired to figure out which emoticons to put where, so feel free to match any of the following faces to any sentences that sound too serious or negative: :-({|= O:) :^o :-({|= #-o :-$ [-X [-( :-k :dance: :mrgreen: :arrow:
-
I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB. Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite. It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds). With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).
Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad. It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games. Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/phoenix.jpg)
As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color. It's simply part of the artwork. That's not a bad thing. Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.
-
While Mega Drive, SNES, etc offered RGB natively, the PC Engine didn't. So I wouldn't consider it an RGB era console (whatever that means). Composite is 50's standard, by the way. :mrgreen:
In arguments such as these, you have to choose your words carefully. Of course, the PCE outputs RGB "natively". Everything you would want is available out the back. NEC just didn't sell any RGB cables for their system. One (but not me...) could argue that the SMS and MD were in the same situation: they both output RGB but Sega (of Japan) didn't release RGB cables for them, AFAIK. Fortunately, Micomsoft stepped in and sold RGB cables and/or S-Video conversion boxes.
-
This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine Smile
Haha dude I thought I was the only one who did that! There are some really, really sweet old gameboy games from the green & black days but they're just not as much fun colorized. I have way more fun playing them on an old puke Gameboy.
-
Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad. It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games. Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/phoenix.jpg)
As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color. It's simply part of the artwork. That's not a bad thing. Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.
Actually I like to think of portable games using their own sort of "magic" for dithering and that's due to their smaller screen. When a dithered image is smaller, it's harder to make out the pixel and it once again creates that magical effect again. But you're right, dithering isn't a bad thing at all and can look nice sometimes without being blended - as long as it's not overdone. Some Genesis games really pushed dithering to look like more colorful than it actually was and this is one of those cases where you really don't want to be playing it with crystal clear picture on an emulator, in my opinion. So I'm not saying that playing PCE or Genesis games with light dithering in RGB or any format that defines the dithering more is a bad thing, I think it just looks a lil better when done in composite.
-
No, some Genesis games just had morons for art designers. Eternal Champions, anyone? I cannot stand the look of that game nor its CD sequel. It is a dithered mess, and I have only ever played them in composite. As you know, bad design is bad design. And a lot of the US-made Genesis games fall into that category, I feel.
-
But you wanna know how to make Eternal Champions look even worse? Play it in an emulator : :mrgreen: .
-
Playing... looks just as bad as I remember it, though a bit sharper. Man even the sound is some of the worst ever to meet my ears. Did they... dither the sound, too???
-
Nah, I think they just decided to take a big shit on the game. ;)
-
On it? I was under the assumption that it was, in fact, the turd.
-
Well I guess it beats Fat Man. If Eternal Champions is a turd then Fat Man is diarrhea. :-&
-
This is a rather long post, but hopefully it will clear things up :).
In defense of RF/composite
I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB. Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite. It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds). With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).
Nintendo released a S-video cable for SNES, that is why S-video is included in my list of pre-32-bit consoles. It is the exception, as far as stock hardware goes on pre- 32-bit consoles...
1. How I Play
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my prior posts: I prefer to play consoles without any modifications; I play them as they were originally manufactured for the masses. I also use the standard controllers (occasionally I'll use additional first- or third- party controllers, but 99% of the time I use the standard pads). So, even though I think the Genesis 3-button controllers are less-than-mediocre, I still use them (and they have grown on me, I must admit, even if they remain my least favorite). I'm not the biggest fan of the SMS controllers, either (due to the awkward d-pad) but I have bigger complaints with the older joysticks (Atari 7800) ...
I don't have an A/V switch box, so I only have 2-3 consoles hooked up to my TV at any given time. As a result, I actually use RF because it acts as a third input (I only have two composite inputs on my TV).
Now, I started using RF out of necessity years ago... and I never thought I'd keep using it... but I have! I should point out that I always have some sort of "oldie" console hooked up (i.e. Colecovision, Intellivision, Atari 2600/5200/7800) and sometimes I'll pull out other stuff... so I'm not that crazy.
2. Why I Play Like This
Believe it or not, I can afford to buy a fancier TV, and I can also afford to get my consoles modded if I chose to do so. I don't have tons of money budgeted for my hobbies, but I could have RGB if I wanted.
But I don't want RGB or component.
Joe thought that maybe this was due to nostalgia:
I think the key thing here is nostalgia. You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present. That's gotta be it.
I can tell you that my preferences have absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with approaching video games as living cultural artifacts. The cultural / historical context of video games (and computers) is fascinating to me. I enjoy reading old computer publications, I write goofy programs in BASIC for Apple ][ and C64 and countless other dorky things.
Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.
I think video games are a legitimate art form (highly commercialized and often low-brow, but yes, an art), etc. etc.
Now, nostalgia can be defined various ways, but it boils down to a "longing for the past, often an idealized, unrealistic past."
I'm not motivated by nostalgia but by a desire to understand the history of creating, marketing, consuming and playing video games.
And, being the dork that I am, I approach this like an archeologist or historian would: I want to experience consoles as the masses did. Hence no hardware modifications, standard controllers, old-skool televisions, etc.
But wait, there's more!
3. Cleanest video signal vs. Historical accuracy
Remember my "theory" of digital art? Here it is in a nutshell:
I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.
We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.
I suppose I should elaborate with some examples. Basically, I am saying that various stock hardware (console + display) configurations = a medium. A "medium" simply refers to the "stuff" artistic work is made out of.
TG-16 / Duo / SMS / Genny / etc. + RF/Composite + standard TV = medium
SNES + RF/Composite/s-video + standardTV = medium
arcade / jamma / etc. + RGB + monitor = medium
(I'll refrain from listing computer configurations, but they are mediums as well... and some even supported RF!).
Now, often, we think about digital art in its purest form (i.e. what you'd see via RGB / component, or on the designer's computer workstation). This version of the art is often placed in highest esteem, since it is considered the purest, least adulterated form.
According to Joe & company, RGB / component best captures the essence of art. Accordingly, there is a strong desire to modify consoles and "unleash" the purity.
I am offering an alternative viewpoint, one that squarely challenges how we define the "purity" and "essence" of a video game.
I am suggesting that the "true" essence of a video game can be defined by how the manufacturers marketed it and the masses experienced it: with stock consoles, standard displays, etc.
If stock consoles and displays are the medium, then video game aesthetics can be appreciated and judged accordingly:
I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.
We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.
Technical "inferiority" is an important (dare I say crucial) aspect of video game aesthetics! It is beautiful, despite, or rather due to, the "flaws"! It is what the masses experienced -- and thus the "true" history and culture of video games.
RF/composite is the best way to capture the "true" history of aesthetics for SMS, NES, TG-16, Genny, etc.
So, I am not anti-RGB, nor am I simply ignorant of RGB.
Also, I don't think RF/composite is unequivocally better than RGB. Rather, I argue that RF/composite is *still* relevant today and always will be! (as far as certain consoles are concerned).
-------------
Joe, I think you and I are both purists, but we define the purity differently.
You strive to unleash the RGB purity (beauty) that has been trapped inside stock consoles. You want to experience art in its contemporary context: newer "stock" technology.
I, on the other hand, strive to appreciate the purity (beauty) of RF / composite. That is, to experience art in its original context.
--------------
So do you folks understand where I'm coming from now? Or have I just made things more confusing? I should probably proof-read this, but I finished my coffee and now I have to get some chores done :).
EDIT:
* Arcade games are a different medium, with a different set of aesthetic standards.
* Keranu's example about playing original GB games on the original GB fits nicely into this discussion. I do the same thing as well (not just for the screen, but to hear the little speaker pumpin' out the tunes!)
* My apoligies to the folks in UK / Europe, but since NEC never officially marketed the PCE in your country, you are not representative of the Japanese / North American NTSC "masses." Your history is still very important and needs to be documented, especially the role played by the importers.
* :)
-
Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan. O:)
-
Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe? Why yes, there was!
I still say it is nostalgia. You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority. That can be defined as nostalgia. You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play. Me? I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems. It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time. I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun. And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well. Same goes with the audio. I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono. You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.
Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well... you're special.
-
I'm playing in mono sound. Mono rules, and the games were INTENDED to be played with mono speakers. It makes it harder to hear how poor the sound quality was. ;)
;)
;)
-
Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe? Why yes, there was!
I still say it is nostalgia. You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority. That can be defined as nostalgia. You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play. Me? I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems. It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time. I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun. And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well. Same goes with the audio. I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono. You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.
The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V, especially the bit about mono and stereo. You're coming from the "more is more" camp, the same people that believe CD's are always better for music than vinyl. It's a technician's stance, really, which is fair enough, but not mine.
-
Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan. O:)
Hahahaha. I know :).
(OK, this is all in good fun, Joe :). It's fun to read your responses.)
Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe? Why yes, there was!
Yes, a gray market PAL unit saw extremely limited release... and we don't even know what countries actually received them (Spain seems to be one of them). The PCE import scene was incredibly more robust than the PAL TurboGrafx. The very fact that we can't verify much of the history of the PAL TG speaks to its obscurity. I was the one who asked John Greiner (of Hudson) about the PAL TG-16 and he was kind enough to answer. To date, his account is the most definitive, and it consists of a short paragraph.
PAL TG is the least-representative NEC console.
I still say it is nostalgia. You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority. That can be defined as nostalgia. You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play. Me? I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems. It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time. I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.
Somehow, you've forgotten that I said:
Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.
I friggin' love playing games. I play games to have fun. I don't know where you got the mistaken idea that I don't enjoy playing games. You seem to think that "enjoying something" and "thinking about it" are mutually exlcusive. They are not. This may shock you, but when I read books, watch movies, or listen to music, I think about them. I'm interested in them. Zombie films or art films, grand literature or trashy novellas... I think about them, try to learn more about them. In fact, it's fun to compare / contrast "high-brow" and "low-brow" pop culture. I think the distinction is silly, but the differnt status and esteem that folks attribute to them is bewildering at times.
If you think about it, I doubt that you are passive consumer. You're here, on these boards. You've taken the time to share your insights and help others (i.e. writing articles at sega-16), etc. I don't see any difference between us.
I'm not writing a doctoral thesis. I'm just trying to connect the dots while I'm having fun! :)
As far as nostalgia is concerned: It strikes me that any interest in the past qualifies as "nostalgia" to you. Nostalgia is distinct from the pursuit of history. Do you think scientists have "nostalgia" for the origins of the universe, simply because their object of study is, literally, in the past? Do you think all historians are motivated by "nostalgia"? A friend of mine is an sociologist, and, I must confess, she really is nostalgic for the Boy Scouts of yesteryear (actually, she studies gender relations in youth organizations, and how they change, over time).
Nostalgia is a derogatory term that is used profusely in our hobby, especially when older consoles, games, and genres are discussed. You insult me by saying I'm motiviated my nostalgia, because you are essentially saying that there is no merit to RF/composite (for the reasons I described). You are saying there is no merit to my curiousity or pursuits.
Other folks (not you, Joe) will add that most older games are not even playable anymore... that folks who still play them are blinded by nostalgia, and that if it were not for their nostalgia, they would realize that most older games no longer have any merit (by contemporary standards). Hey, you seem to employ the same logic in your attitude towards RF/composite!
Hogwash!
I can't change anyone's opinions on a game, but please don't insult me by saying that I'm the one deluded by nostalgia.
If anything, I would say that it is the folks today who are deluded into thinking that anything less than RGB will "hurt their eyes". Pretty soon you'll be telling me that you refuse to watch any tv show or movie that isn't HD, simply because the old standards look so bad on HDTV's.
But what about simply having fun and enjoying stuff? I bet you'll still watch your favorite films / tv shows, even if they aren't HD (yet!). You'll still play your favorite games, too, wouldn't you, if God decreed "though shalt have no RGB!"
I know I'd still listen to my favorite music, even if a speaker blew out.
And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well. Same goes with the audio. I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono. You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.
Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well... you're special.
As far as visuals are concerned, I like RGB. But RF/composite is still a treat for me.
And I listen to stuff in stereo... if it is available in stereo. Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles.
And finally, the point is that I do appreciate the 3-button controller for the Genny, since I gave it a chance (I'm glad I did), but it will never be on my list of "top 5 controllers"! Plus, I'm entitled to gripe about it! You gripe about how crappy RF/composite is all the time! :)
(Joe, you know it's fun to enliven the boards with some drama! Especially because I'm supposed to be installing some molding -- big party tomorrow -- but I wanted to procrastinate :). I have to do some painting as well, goddammit.)
-
So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? :wink:
Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).
Which is why I use the best all-in-one Radio Shack RF switches I can find with a modern composite/rca cable. Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.
I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.
The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.
Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.
All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.
I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).
Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it. :)
I don't know why some people take that as an insult.
-
So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? :wink:
I know I would :) .
-
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
The problem only affects certain Genesis 2 deck types. They used 3 different video chip types in the Mk-1631 decks and in the Mk-1451 deck the same chip used in the Genesis 3 and NeoGeo cd is used. The Mk-1451 composite out is better then the Mk-1631 but I don't use it. I use s-video from it as I modded it for s-video. I wont play a Genesis game in composite again ever if I can help it.
-
So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? :wink:
I know I would :) .
Same here. Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing. Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.
-
The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V
No no no! I'm saying that many of the reasons as to why he thinks RF looks better seem to be nostalgic reasons. If RF is all you have or care about then RF is fine. I played Genesis in composite from 1989 until 2006. There were always things I hated about the video quality, such as the smearing and the rainbow bars, etc. I had similar but different feelings for all of my other systems I played in composite as well. For me, going to RGB was like finally being able to scratch that itch that has been bugging me forever. I never thought I'd be able to get better than composite out of my Genesis and I figured getting a real RGB monitor wasn't going to happen. Transcoding to component was a godsend for me.
Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles.
Yes, the Genesis and the Turbo were the first US consoles to offer true stereo sound. I don't think you can mod a console for stereo even if you wanted. Sure, you can put two audio jacks on an SMS or an NES, but it's still mono. I take my single line out on my NES, attach a Y-connector and then two audio lines so I am not stuck with it coming out of left-only or right-only when I play. Playing SMS games on a Genesis hooked up to a stereo doesn't make the SMS games stereo. Stereo means two discrete directional sound channels, so there really isn't much to argue about here.
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are differ
Very true, there are lengthy discussions about this over at Sega-16.com, and also the sound between various models as well. Which one would be considered the "definitive" one?
All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.
That's very true. A lot of the screen shots of PC Engine and TurboGrafx games are in RGB or at the very least, something MUCH better than composite. Granted there are exceptions (and EGMs in-house picture quality went down the tubes starting around their 8th or 9th issue), but a lot of those screens were so crisp and clear... oh man. Now I can see those same screens on my TV.
And I agree, nostalgia kicks ass. I never meant to insinuate it is a bad thing.
-
I'm surprised I never thought to try this sooner.
I used an S-Video to Composite adaptor to capture screenshots of my RGB/S-Video mod outputted in composite.
http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html
That's a pretty big freaking difference(scroll down to see the rollover pic). Even though in theory, the S-Video mod-to-composite signal could be degraded from the 2 cables and adaptor.
Turbo games do look amazing in composite, even compared to S-Video & RGB. But the default Turbo/PCE's composite output still drains half the color out of the image.
So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? :wink:
I know I would :) .
Same here. Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing. Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.
I wasn't talking about a top loading NES or A/V Famicom. I was talking about the regular NES that makes up 99% of the North American market. The last 10 or so I bought only begin to play games once every 20 tries or 1 in every 20 or more carts work. Or like the best running one I have, it crashed halfway through Zelda and erased my save files.
An NES that only gives you a blinking screen is far inferior to the NEX. They have no sound, connectors are incompatible with all games, and the composite does not output anything but a blinking/flashing screen. :wink:
I think a better comparison would've been to ask if replacing the pins/modding an NES detracts from the whole experience. I'd rather play a modded NES that is reliable than an NES that is a strobe light/game save eraser combo.
-
AV is such weak! since i moved out of my country, i'm forced to play on AV signal, since most of the TVs here dosen't support RGB but S-Video. but the way to grade up your AV signal to S-Video is hard and long. first i need a RGB mod and after that in serial a RGB to S-Video converter. both i don't have at the moment and would cost me lot of money if i want to get it :(
of course i can take some time, which i certainly don't have, and make all the mods by my own talented hands. but i'm just too lazy for that kind of shit nowadays :oops:
next time i go back to my country i will pick up my US DUO which is already RGB moded. then i only need a converter to S-Video, and all the games will rule again :dance:
-
I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV :oops:
-
I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV :oops:
Me either i've stuck with composite up untile 06.
Last year i'd switch and picked up a crt tv that suports component and s-video.
I'm at the point now where i'm sick of composite wash out look.
Dunno i guess afther many years i wanted a "better picture" and being, able to see all the detail in the game a little more.
When your brought up on video games from the (arcades) it comes down to wanting the experince at home.
I see some here are happy with composite hey if that's there thing np then.
While ago i hook up my, NeoGeo CMVS through component and i'd like the look of it. Bright colors and being able to the "see the details better... in the animation was a treat to me.
Still it does come down to personal prefernce on what picture you like.
Right now my duo-r is still has composite but.. i will have it modded one day to have either s-video or rbg added.
-
Well shit, you RGB guys have convinced me to give it a go after all. My Saturn actually looks really good through S-video on my HDTV, is that a good indication that my Turbo and Genesis will look good too? Or should I just pony up the $200 for a SDTV?
-
I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.
-
First I'd like to thank Joe for being a good sport (plus, I enjoyed your recent post :)) and, second, now it's time for me to give Black_Tiger some grief! :)
Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).
Well, thankfully, I never have it that bad (where it affects gameplay). You might try experimenting to see if that is caused by interference from other cables / devices. I've found that all my RF connections are susceptible to interference. Often, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it: so I just have to move stuff around (i.e. video cables, power cords, AC adapters).
Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.
I've never owned Intellivision 2, but it sounds like the pads rival the Atari 7800!
I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.
Ouch! The 6-button Genny pad is worse than the 3-button, IMHO :). This is a subjective area, of course, but I've always preferred NES-style controllers... so I like the SMS pads better than the Genny's pads.
The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.
I have no reason to disagree. But I'm not concerned with anything outside of the actual hardware we were sold, since modded hardware won't provide what I want.
Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.
1. Well, I wouldn't fault anyone for performing any mod (including RGB), since we all have very different needs. I'm sure a fan is a practical idea... but I have no desire to install a fan. Thankfully, my DUOs still work fine.
2. As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...
My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.
The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.
Ahhh, but those aren't contradictions! Those are all valid configurations of a product. We're not talking about folks who modded their GP32's / GBA's with illuminated screens now, we're talking about mass produced consumer goods.
Another significant change of aesthetics ocurred earlier when GB -> GBC ... the introduction of color (however limited) and a slight tweaking of the hardware (there were some GBC-only games that were not backward-compatible) is certainly relevant to our discussion.
All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.
I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).
Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it. :)
I don't know why some people take that as an insult.
:)
-
I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.
Why mod a system that already outputs s-video? :p
Anyway - you should definitely do the rgb mod and then convert it to component just like Joe did. You'll definitely not regret it.
-
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant. I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.
-
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant. I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.
I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.
GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.
As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.
As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.
But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. :)
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...
My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.
The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.
I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".
As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.
-
Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant. I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.
I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.
GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.
As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.
As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.
But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. :)
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...
My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.
The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.
I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".
As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.
You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.
Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side! :|
-
You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.
Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side! :|
But I'm not even talking RGB. I'm talking about getting the mod to fix the color drain and then outputting it in composite, s-video or whatever you want.
With the mod, composite looks as colorful/vibrant as S-Video, RGB & emulation, but you can still enjoy all those artifacts and blurriness you crave-
http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html
-
Oh right. 8)
Well, you can mod mine when I get it! Cause no-one else is answering my bloody emails...
-
Remember that an RGB mod will allow you to use both RGB and composite. Win-win situation (or in my case, win-lose - as I'd never torture myself with composite and I don't even want to have that option).
-
As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.
But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. :)
:) Ahhh, but that's my point! Defect or not, we should be able to appreciate the aesthetic qualities of the composite video that the mass-produced consoles provided. I think we are talking past each other because you keep listing lots of reasons that "justify" a system modification, whereas I keep saying that the so-called "defects" and "flaws" in the hardware are crucial elements of video game aesthetics.
Go back to my old post when I talked about "purity" -- I was addressing Joe at the time, but now it applies to you as well: you want to unleash the purity that has been trapped in the PCE for all these years. You see it as a "potential" that was never fully realized.
I have no interest in this quest for the "cleanest video signal". I'm searching for a purity of a different sort: historically accurate aesthetics.
You and Joe (and most folks, I should add) viewpoint of a contemporary technician :) , whereas my perspective is more akin to that of an art historian.
I'm not saying my viewpoint is better! I'm simply asking for folks to acknowledge that "art historian" is a valid, useful perspective to take, since most folks laugh when I mention it :).
The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.
I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...
My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.
The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.
I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".
As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.
Well, yes and no. I agree that there is no "narrow" standard. However, this is easilly solved by having an inclusive defintion, as I have been arguing since my first post in this thread. I made the argument that there is a standard original specification for game consoles: it is defined by the range of over-the-counter hardware available to customers. Think of it as the "officially-sanctioned canon."
See? It really is straightforward. Even when we have an item like GB, which underwent a series of changes and evolutions, we can still identify distinct specifications with distinct eras in its lifespan.
The PCE / TG-16 began life as RF. Upgrades to the original models added A/V. Second generation+ PCE's were A/V out of the box. CD-ROM systems were A/V as well. This really isn't a confusing or contradictory range of specifications.
It's not hard to define the official canon. Repairing a PCE or GT/TE so that it regains what it lost is fine. Modifying a PCE so that it exceeds the official canon is where I draw the line.
---------------
Anyway, I think we both understand each other; we simply have different perspectives and different goals. Right? :)
-
Yes! Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer. Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see. I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB. :P
-
Yes! Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer. Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see. I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB. :P
God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation :) .
-
God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine. God was busy working for Mattel at that time.
-
God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine. God was busy working for Mattel at that time.
No god sent prophet Moses to work at Mattel for him since he was busy designing the TG16 hardware. God working for Mattel was just a myth.
-
God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation :) .
but why the PCE lineup was always RGB-restricted products, when the MD or SFC wasn't? i may understand, that a core grafx made in '88 didn't support RGB neither S-Video, since those weren't standards at that time, but when the DUO came out, they really should rethink about their video-outputs. really!!
-
Actually when I first saw what looked like a DIN-8 on the Duo my first thought was that it was the same jack that was on the Genesis and Neo Geo. But then I saw a composite video and stereo audio cable plug into it and I knew that it was proprietary. Still if they used a real DIN-8, they would have enough pins left over to offer s-video at the very least!
-
Still if they used a real DIN-8, they would have enough pins left over to offer s-video at the very least!
but what they didn't and for what i hate them the most and forever!
-
I've modified my DUO-R that it has a DIN-8 instead and it is compatible with the standard PCE composite cords as well as my own custom RGB one. They should've designed it that way, those madmen.
-
God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine. God was busy working for Mattel at that time.
I think your refering to Tom,and if so,yes he is GOD,and 2,he was rebuilding Matchbox at the time.
-
I already have my Duo-R modded to output S-Video, I was thinking about getting an RGB mod for it as well but I discovered there are ways to get the 240p signal without it if you have a capture card and use the "DScaler" freeware, which has an "Old Game" deinterlacing mode to combine the proper parts of the fields to give you 240p, up to 60fps video game goodness upscaled on your PC monitor (or HDTV if your TV accepts VGA or DVI, or if you have a video card with component out, or if you have a VGA to component transcoder). This also works with Saturn, SNES, and PS1 games (not PS2 or most DC games though). There are also some standalone scalers that will properly deinterlace the 480i signal to a 240p one, but they're expensive and they sometimes have delay problems, as do some HDTVs.
-
Your Duo is always 240p until some device (like an HDTV or a capture card) interprets it as 480i. Those devices don't know what 240p is, so that's why they do what they do. I don't think it would be too great for the signal to be interlaced from 240p into 480i and then deinterlaced back to 240p. That's just too much screwing with the signal in my opinion.
-
From what I understand, the way a 240p signal works is that instead of displaying it as 480 lines split into 60 alternating fields every second, the 240 lines from each field are their own frame and aren't alternating like when they're displayed on a TV. On DScaler's Old Game mode, they're rendered as 720x240 progressive frames and then upscaled to fill your monitor or HDTV. On old RGB monitors, a 4:3 60fps progressive image is shown with scanlines inbetween the 240 lines of video data, but they don't alternate and create flicker like on a regular TV.
So I don't think a game console has to do anything special to make a 240p signal into a 480i one, the frames are just alternated between the top 240 lines and bottom 240 lines instead of being shown on the same 240 lines. An RGB cable will give you slightly better quality than S-Video since the red/green/blue colors are all sent separately instead of just the chroma and luma, but if your display is properly deinterlacing a 240p signal sent over S-Video, you won't see a great difference compared to RGB. Similarly, there's not much difference in quality between a 480i signal over S-Video and a 480i signal over component (composite is another matter, of course).
-
Similarly, there's not much difference in quality between a 480i signal over S-Video and a 480i signal over component (composite is another matter, of course).
True, but by how much is composite different?
Here are some shots taken from my TV of my AV modded PC Engine and an emulator running from my Xbox. Which is the AV picture and which is the SCART derived emulator screen?
The crap quality pictures (I tried my best, honest) don't help, I admit.
-
Bottom pics are from the Xbox.
-
Incorrect! :P
-
Are you using rgb with it?
-
There is a flag in the 480i video signal that tells the CRT to advance to the next field. A 240p signal simply removes that flag. It is 60 progressive frames per second on a 240p signal, running at up to 720x243. It is easy to interlace a 240p signal, yes, but it is pointless unless every 1/60th of a second is one half of a picture, therefore resulting in the resolution increase that 480i provides over 240p. If every 1/60th of a second is the entire picture, it will just look blocky and therefore like complete ass.
The best way is just to play old game systems on SDTVs and not HDTVs. My SDTV has a component input and it looks RGB quality, easily. Also someone said that component isn't much better than s-video. I beg to differ. S-video is still limited to NTSC color, component is not. Reds look much better over component (depending on your set, of course). With s-video, the red hearts and stuff like that in Super Duper Castlevania IV on the SNES still have color bleed to the right on every TV I've ever tried. Completely gone with RGB/component. If your source is compressed all to hell like DVD, then yeah component won't look amazingly great. But if the source is RGB, then hell yeah it will! :)
-
We're going in loops now :P .
-
There is a flag in the 480i video signal that tells the CRT to advance to the next field. A 240p signal simply removes that flag. It is 60 progressive frames per second on a 240p signal, running at up to 720x243. It is easy to interlace a 240p signal, yes, but it is pointless unless every 1/60th of a second is one half of a picture, therefore resulting in the resolution increase that 480i provides over 240p.
I don't get what you're saying here... sending a 240p signal as 480i doesn't really increase the resolution, it just shows the lines at alternating intervals.
If every 1/60th of a second is the entire picture, it will just look blocky and therefore like complete ass.
Seeing the pixels doesn't bother me really, and if it did the flicker from a CRT SDTV would bother me more. As for 60 frames per second, that's a good thing as lots of games are rendered that way, especially arcade games and arcade ports.
The best way is just to play old game systems on SDTVs and not HDTVs. My SDTV has a component input and it looks RGB quality, easily. Also someone said that component isn't much better than s-video. I beg to differ. S-video is still limited to NTSC color, component is not. Reds look much better over component (depending on your set, of course). With s-video, the red hearts and stuff like that in Super Duper Castlevania IV on the SNES still have color bleed to the right on every TV I've ever tried. Completely gone with RGB/component. If your source is compressed all to hell like DVD, then yeah component won't look amazingly great. But if the source is RGB, then hell yeah it will! :)
I think that's more a problem with the TVs than the signal. I don't see any bleeding reds when S-Video is input to my computer monitor through my capture card (actually it's the PDI Deluxe aka Sweetspot, it's more of a card meant for watching external inputs on a PC). All of my video game systems outputting S-Video look just as good as the Component from my PS2, which the card also accepts.
-
Well, I think you're confusing a lot of what I was saying. I never said a line-doubled 240p signal increased resolution. Please point out where I said that. Instead, I said it would look twice as blocky and more craptastic. If you like crap, then you'll love 240p shown as 480i. With REAL interlacing, where both fields are separate halves of the picture, then yes, the perceived resolution increases. There is no flicker in a real 240p image n a CRT TV.
Please post some pictures captured from s-video of Super Duper Castlevania IV with lots of floating hearts on the screen. Like I said, s-video is still limited to NTSC color space, which the entire world agrees isn't exactly the best.
-
Well, I think you're confusing a lot of what I was saying. I never said a line-doubled 240p signal increased resolution.
I'm not talking about line doubling. I'm saying that when a 240p signal is sent as 480i, the exact same video lines are still present and can be displayed as 240p with the proper equipment. A 240p signal sent as 480i isn't quite the same as a 480p signal interlaced to 480i.
There is no flicker in a real 240p image n a CRT TV.
If it's an interlaced display and not a monitor or EDTV(480p) or HDTV, then yes, there will be flicker on a CRT. That's how interlacing works.
Please post some pictures captured from s-video of Super Duper Castlevania IV with lots of floating hearts on the screen.
I don't currently have a SFC, but I might be able to fill a request for a PCE game through S-Video.
Like I said, s-video is still limited to NTSC color space, which the entire world agrees isn't exactly the best.
Does this matter for the systems that output 240p? Are there old video game systems that output colors that aren't in NTSC?
-
OK. Please go find out more about NTSC technology. Until then I will not debate with you on this issue here beyond this post. But I will try to say some stuff one last time:
I'm not talking about line doubling. I'm saying that when a 240p signal is sent as 480i, the exact same video lines are still present and can be displayed as 240p with the proper equipment. A 240p signal sent as 480i isn't quite the same as a 480p signal interlaced to 480i.
I never said anything about a 480p signal. Where did you get that? But for all intents and purposes, 240p sent as 480i looks much blockier than regular 240p, since the space between the scanlines is filled with the lines directly above it.
If it's an interlaced display and not a monitor or EDTV(480p) or HDTV, then yes, there will be flicker on a CRT. That's how interlacing works.
And that's why it's called 240p. The 'p' is for 'progressive'. And yes, that means progressive scan on just about any regular SDTV in the entire world. All NES, SMS, TG-16, Genesis ('cept the two-player mode in Sonic 2), SNES and most Saturn & PS1 games all run at 240p. No interlacing. None. Zero. Zip. Are there any more synonyms I can use for "None"? That's right, the SDTV is displaying a progressive image. Notice the scanlines between each line? Yup. Notice the flicker? Nope, you don't. If you're seeing interlace flicker from the systems I just mentioned above (with the exception of several Saturn and PS1 games), then your TV is doing something wrong. On many of the the Sega Ages collections in Japan, there is even a 240p option to play the games in the original resolution. Why would this be there along with a 480i option if 240p was alwasy sent as an interlaced signal? Answer: Because 240p is not an interlaced signal, and if it were it wouldn't be 240p. It is not officially recognized since it is not used in transmission of over-the-air signals (though it could be).
Does this matter for the systems that output 240p? Are there old video game systems that output colors that aren't in NTSC?
It's not about "how many" colors NTSC can produce, it's about how well it produces those colors. I could go into a long discussion about NTSC color bandwidth, and how it doesn't have much space. But instead I'll just say that the luma (B&W) portion of the signal gets a lot more space than the combined red, green blue, etc get. PAL has much better color space than NTSC and therefore the color looks much better. Component video is free from all of this nonsense, but it has goofiness of it's own. It does not transmit the color green. But fortunately the way component video works, there is no theoretical loss from raw RGB. If there is a loss, it is likely the monitor where it is being veiwed. I have seen some Samsung and Sony SDTVs where component video looked absolutely horrible.
OK I'm done.
-
I never said anything about a 480p signal. Where did you get that?
I was making a comparison between the interlacing done on a 240p signal (each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information) vs a 480p image interlaced to 480i, which looses information.
But for all intents and purposes, 240p sent as 480i looks much blockier than regular 240p, since the space between the scanlines is filled with the lines directly above it.
This does not apply to equipment such as a PC running DScaler in Old Game mode or a standalone deinterlacer that can properly create a 240p frame from a 480i field.
And that's why it's called 240p. The 'p' is for 'progressive'. And yes, that means progressive scan on just about any regular SDTV in the entire world.
I didn't know that TVs could recognize a 240p signal without confusing it for an 480i one (except maybe in Europe, but I don't know much about their situation), but I'll take your word for it. You have the RGB signal transcoded to YPbPr component, right? What transcoder do you use? What's the model of your TV?
On many of the the Sega Ages collections in Japan, there is even a 240p option to play the games in the original resolution.
Which one? I was thinking about getting some of them eventually, I can pick it up in Akihabara on the way home from work someday.
Why would this be there along with a 480i option if 240p was alwasy sent as an interlaced signal?
I never said that it was. However, the resolution lines when it's sent as 480i are exactly the same as 240p, because a 480i field has 240 active lines and they can be easily combined to make a 240p image, such as when using DScaler. This software takes very little CPU processing in Old Game mode, and in addition has no detectable lag (unless introduced by the capture card), unlike many standalone deinterlacers and scalers in HDTVs. I can perform moves in fighting games with exact precision. I'm sure your setup has no lag either though.
It's not about "how many" colors NTSC can produce, it's about how well it produces those colors. I could go into a long discussion about NTSC color bandwidth, and how it doesn't have much space. But instead I'll just say that the luma (B&W) portion of the signal gets a lot more space than the combined red, green blue, etc get. PAL has much better color space than NTSC and therefore the color looks much better. Component video is free from all of this nonsense, but it has goofiness of it's own. It does not transmit the color green. But fortunately the way component video works, there is no theoretical loss from raw RGB.
Yes, RGB and component cables will give you slightly better color quality than S-Video, but it's not a huge improvement like the kind you get going from composite to S-Video (or better), especially since the human eye is much more sensitive to light/dark differences in video than color.
-
Are you using rgb with it?
Yeah, but to be fair, the photos are having a strange effect on the pictures, blurring them somehow, and it's hard to tell. The composite photos have good colour though in general, though not as much of it!
Guess again... :)
-
each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information
Very true, but it looks much worse when it is displayed as 480i instead of 240p.
You have the RGB signal transcoded to YPbPr component, right? What transcoder do you use? What's the model of your TV?
This one:
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/scart1.jpg)
(Note that I added audio to it)
The TV that I use for SD games is a Toshiba 20"... I forget the exact model and am too lazy to walk downstairs and look. But it's actually made by Sansui or something like that and they also make Panasonic's in the same size range, and they'll give you the same picture. The reds are incredibly good and there are no vertical stripes in dithered screens (like some stuff from Ys on the SMS) like there are on the Sony TVs I tried (and took back).
Which one?
I believe that both Space Harrier and SDI do this. Maybe Quartet but I'm not sure... I'd have to power it up and check.
Yes, RGB and component cables will give you slightly better color quality than S-Video...
Depends. To a discerning eye, it is quite the improvement. But the reason s-video seems so much better is simply because composite sucks so bad. In Midnight Resistance for the Genesis, the text on the item/weapon containers between rounds is much more readable on component than it is in s-video, which itself is a hell of a lot more readable than composite. I can take new comparison pictures of that part if you like.
-
each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information
Very true, but it looks much worse when it is displayed as 480i instead of 240p.
On what are you basing this opinion? What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames? I play my systems regularly through this method on my 22" Mitsubishi CRT monitor from 2004, and there is no easily visible loss in quality compared to PS1 games played on my PS2 hooked up through component, nor do Dreamcast games played through VGA look significantly better.
But the reason s-video seems so much better is simply because composite sucks so bad. In Midnight Resistance for the Genesis, the text on the item/weapon containers between rounds is much more readable on component than it is in s-video, which itself is a hell of a lot more readable than composite. I can take new comparison pictures of that part if you like.
When you use S-Video, unlike what DScaler does your display isn't taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying it as 240p, so comparison pictures from it wouldn't be of any use to this discussion.
-
This is kind a a old argument,and the visual improvement of Component over S-Video is going to def depend from tv to tv. Some tvs produce great component AND great S-video,and some Tvs produce great Component and average S-video,and some produce horrible Component and great S-video. From this standpoint its pointless to argue about it. Almost everyones SDTV build quality is different.
-
The quality differs, yes - but unless the tv is broken - component will always look better than s-video. Always.
-
With regards to the images I showed, pic A of Alien Crush and pic B of Victory Run are from the emulator.
-
The quality differs, yes - but unless the tv is broken - component will always look better than s-video. Always.
Thats a completely untrue remark. Although rare there are tvs where the component is just horrible and the s-video it produces is better,because of poor design and parts used for the Component handling. And there are Tvs where the S-video is pretty much on par with Component. I think Jrok even addressed this issue somewhere once. If you messed with Superguns,and consolizing more you'd know this. Sony esp has been able to pump out alot of crap tvs that produce both S-video and Component and the Component was just done wrong and looked slightly worse when compared to its S-video or was perfect in Component and the S-video was horrible.
-
On what are you basing this opinion? What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?
My eyeballs. I can see. You seem to think that I have a huge array of scalers and whatnot. I do not. Why would I? I play 480p and higher capable systems on my HDTV. I play 240p-only systems on a TV that can properly show 240p without the BS. When I plug my 240p systems into my capture device, it displays it as a 480i signal. It looks much worse. Same when I plug a 240p system into my HDTV. There is no need for me to have a 240p-480i-240p setup when I can just play in the original unraped 240p to begin with. You seem to think that having a scaler is the ONLY way to play these games. Anything else in incomprehensible.
When you use S-Video, unlike what DScaler does your display isn't taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying it as 240p, so comparison pictures from it wouldn't be of any use to this discussion.
The comparison pictures would show that S-video doesn't look as good as component. I don't give a single living f*ck about your Dscaler. I just know I have quality on my SDTV that s-video cannot match, period. As I have said before I have seen SNES s-video displayed on many different (key word there, sparky) different televisions and they always have bleeding reds to some degree. But then again you didn't even know what 240p really was, so how can I expect you to grasp this?
I agree with Mike H. about the recent Sony SDTVs.
-
You know, could also have a tad to do with the chip used to produce the S-video on the Snes,or the red color line needing to be toned down before it is sent with green and blue to the encoder chip used. I also didn't really notice the red problem on Snes so much,but I didn't really play Snes enough in S-video. Also in a way Joe is lucky. Using a smaller screen for gaming is less problematic when it comes to SDTV's.
The larger the screen,the more problems you will see in the picture clarity and color alot of times. I tend to really despise anything past 25-27 inchs because of this. I should probably pick up a couple more SDTV sets for storage for when my current one I am using for games dies.
I also think Buster D can take Dscaler and stick it up his ass. I know he thinks hes being all techie and cool and leet by running his game systems into his computer,but honestly,its not leet,or cool,and its the poorest choice to run your favorite older game systems. And the difference between S-video and VGA on Dreamcast is night and day. The majority of software for Dreamcast was designed around Super VGA quality picture,not SDTV interlaced. All the games that support VGA look way way better in VGA. The color is correct,the detail is all there,the picture is cleaner and worlds sharper.
I cant even believe it was suggested that DC Super VGA is not much better then S-video. Laughable.
-
Dreamcast in VGA is awesome. I transcode my DC's VGA into component and play it in 480p and it looks great, but pure VGA still wins. Unless you happen to playing certain Capcom fighters where the sprites are very low res compared to the BGs.
-
On what are you basing this opinion? What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?
My eyeballs. I can see. You seem to think that I have a huge array of scalers and whatnot. I do not.
If you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison.
But I guess people would rather flame and swear at me than make the comparison for themselves. Fair enough.
-
I also think Buster D can take Dscaler and stick it up his ass. I know he thinks hes being all techie and cool and leet by running his game systems into his computer,but honestly,its not leet,or cool,and its the poorest choice to run your favorite older game systems.
Have you seen a console through S-Video using Old Game mode of DScaler for yourself, or are you basing this on others' opinions? I don't really care what people think about me, but my setup is an easy solution for many, and is most likely easier for most than getting a secondary or new TV. If people don't like it after trying it and want something better, that's fine, but I see little point in saying it's the worst way to display video games without giving any reason.
And the difference between S-video and VGA on Dreamcast is night and day. The majority of software for Dreamcast was designed around Super VGA quality picture,not SDTV interlaced. All the games that support VGA look way way better in VGA. The color is correct,the detail is all there,the picture is cleaner and worlds sharper.
Naturally the details are all there and motion certianly looks better since it's a 640x480 uninterlaced image and not the same image sent as 480i and then deinterlaced. I should've specified that I was just referring to the color quality, which isn't a massive step up from S-Video.
I cant even believe it was suggested that DC Super VGA is not much better then S-video. Laughable.
Dreamcast outputs 640x480 (or half that depending on the game IIRC). Super VGA usually refers to 800x600 (edit: and 1078x768 as well I believe).
-
If you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison.
But I guess people would rather flame and swear at me than make the comparison for themselves. Fair enough.
I seem angry/pissed/whatever only because you are being sooooo dense. I am talking about 240p as 240p compared to 240p sent as 480i. That's what I've been saying all along, but for some reason you don't seem to be able to comprehend this. I am making a valid comparison because 240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p. Like I said, I have no reason to convert 240p to 480i and back to 240p again when I can just leave it at 240p to begin with. But again I imagine this does not fit your logic, and somehow I am talking nonsense.
-
And what I've been saying all along is that 240p sent as 480i can be perfectly displayed back as 240p again. You seem to think there's an inherent quality loss from this. There isn't.
-
Nope. Never said that. I am saying that looking at the TV screen (the device commonly used to display video images) with a 240p signal displayed as 240p looks better than the same signal displayed as 480i. I am also saying that I'd have to be a moron to take 240p, convert it to 480i only to convert it back to 240p again. I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.
That is the LAST time I will explain it to your closed mind.
-
Sorry, you're the one who is mistaken. 60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines. When this 480i is converted back to 240p, all a computer monitor has to do is show each interlaced field of 240 lines in sequence instead of alternating them. Nothing retarded about it.
If you're lucky enough to have RGB output on all your systems and have a display or converters than can accept the signal, then great. But not everyone has this option or chooses to go to the trouble of setting it up.
If you have a technical explanation for why using DScaler would be a bad idea, I'd be perfectly willing to hear it. But paint metaphors don't accurately explain the situation.
-
I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.
Yeah, the 240p signal on my HDTV looks like ass since it doesn't vertically interpolate or add simulated scanlines. The capture card I have (like most) interperts all signals at 480i regardless if they're 240p or not. But I just fix the problem in post.
From the sound of it, it appears that the app Buster D is talking about just reorders the fields as frames in real time (with his computer outputting to the HDTV). Unless his capture card is one of those crappy MPEG(2) only versions (those suck such ass), there shouldn't be much generation loss (there is though - slight or otherwise from the capture card YUV to RGB conversion and what not).
Too much trouble for me. I'd perfer a 240p to 480p signal converter (with filter options and simulation scanline gap). If I really want component PCE to my HDTV, then I'll just run mednafen through the component output (I have an 4:3 HDTV CRT 53" - so not black bars for me).
Btw, the snes and genesis both have an interlaced mode. The snes mode is the half ass 263/262line switch ever other frame while the genesis has true 262.5line mode. The 263/262line mode doesn't work on my HD set, but I'm not supprised.
I just run my classic systems on an SDTV for the most part.
-Rich
-
60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.
Never said it wasn't.
Bonknuts, what SNES games have screens that are in interlace mode? I've always wondered this but couldn't get an answer. Obviously I want to try it for myself.
-
60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.
Never said it wasn't.
You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p". This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same. The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.
-
Joe,
I'd have to look at the list (around here somewhere). I remember Chrono Trigger supposedly had one scene with mode 7 in interlaced mode (asteroid part I think). I did a test PC Engine demo that did the 263/262line interlaced mode and is didn't work on my HD set either (fine on SDTV set ofcourse).
-
You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p". This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same. The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.
You make my head hurt daily.
Bonknuts, try to find a game I can access without playing for hours like Chrono Trigger. Also, send me an ISO of that PCE test if you have a CD version. I'd love to see it. :)
-
I hate replying to myself, but I want to post these anyway. It's from Midnight Resistance on the Genesis and the red text is an excellent example of different video signals. I made sure that these images never went through any sort of compression from the lens to your eyeballs... though I hear Internet Explorer hates PNG files and treats them wrong. But who uses IE anymore?
COMPOSITE:
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/composite.png)
S-VIDEO:
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/svideo.png)
COMPONENT:
(http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/component.png)
Sorry Keranu, no RF picture. :(
-
Actually the only thing that the Dreamcast shares with normal VGA is the res of 640x480,and the hardware was capable of producing a higher res,but that option was never used. The color depth far exceeds the old VGA standard,and the old VGA hardware standard was able to produce 704×528, 736×552, 768×576, and 800×600 at 16 colors.
When Super VGA was created the call was for 800x600 to be used more commonly. At the time they were not getting into 800x600 on VGA much,it was rarely done and at 16 colors, not very useful. However,SuperVGA can go back to 640x480. 640x480 on Dreamcast still uses SuperVGA color,along with the other aspects needed like the ability to double buffer at a color depth of 16-bit-32-bit. VGA high color depth is only 256 colors. I know,it must have slipped past you,but Power VR is a Super VGA hardware technology.
256 KiB ram was the limit for VGA. The most typically standard graphics modes used in VGA are 640x480 in 16 colors, 640x350 in 16 colors, 320x200 in 16 colors,320x200 in 256 colors (Mode 13h) with typical res modes used for games like 320x400 double res,320x240 square pixel, and 360x480. I remember ColoRIX allowing you to do higher res while using 256 colors,but it would eat up all the available 256 kib ram fast and was not usable with games really.
As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems into a computer via capture card,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv. Also,the color depth for the Dreamcast is much better on a computer monitor then a standard tv. SDTV dumbs it down somewhat in S-video.
I don't really care what you meant either way,you really do not know what your talking about,that much is apparent with your looping double backing post,and you think your going to win your retarded arguments here with people who do know,by using your poor wikipedia reference material and the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead. No matter how many times you post your same stupid mis informed info Joe nor I are going to agree with you,nor about anyone else here I gather. Infact,we are all laughing at you right now,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you,laughing at you......
Lesson for the children
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5529/busterdfo6.png) (http://imageshack.us/)
-
Sorry Keranu, no RF picture. :(
Thats cool,I included one for Keranu
(http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/4605/staticof9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/)
-
As for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systems
into a computer via capture card
Why, specifically? What technical reason is there other than the color quality difference?
,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv.
I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron. And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.
the point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead.
Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame?
Lesson for the children
Yeah, whatever. Feel free to continue the flames, but if you have any technical evidence as to why DScaler sucks so bad for gaming, I'll be around.
-
Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame?
That's right. It's upscaling it to whatever resolution your monitor is set at. Only really really old monitors can go down to a resolution of 240p. What is that, a 15khz sync? If I had a monitor that could do that, I'd just connect it with pure RGB straight from my consoles to rock my world.
-
Yes, it's upscaling it, but not from 480i. When in Old Game mode it takes the 240 lines from each 480i field to make a 240p image and THEN resizes it to my monitor.
-
Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. After hinting that where he is located at it must be impossible to locate a CRT SDTV or SCART TV in new or good condition,possibly because he lives with the moles in a dark hole,he just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs.
He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much. Dscaler is not solely meant so you can stop using a normal tv,its to try to help clean up the process of using SDTV items on a capture card for your computer for when you need to use it. Its not the end all solution,nor a perfect replacement,nor able to 100 percent replicate the feel or look of a great quality SDTV in S-video or Component,or even composite really.
What is that, a 15khz sync?
Yea,I do believe that is what old computer monitors that used typical anolog RGB signal use. C64/128,Atari ST,and old Amiga monitors,and some of the really old VGA monitors could be used if you made a special connector.
-
Joe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. He just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs. He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much.
:roll: Yeah, I hate scanlines. That's why I said the exact opposite in my previous post.
Look, I'd be perfectly willing to accept that my setup sucks if you showed me something that proves DScaler isn't doing what I say it's doing, but so far you haven't.
I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...
-
I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron. And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.
By saying you prefer to not have them there its evident they bother you deeply,that and your attitude about this subject makes it very apparent. They repulse you. Thats the only reason you would be compelled to run your old game systems into a computer and use software to attempt to fix the image so you can play on a VGA monitor. Hell your whole attitude about it all,including your willingness to continue your dumb error filled arguement about this subject shows you oozing with contempt for SDTV.
As for your method,what proof would you need???? All you have to do is run a system into a good tv side by side with the setup your using and Dscaler running your image and you could clearly tell that your choice is a poor method compared to just using a great normal SDTV.
Clearly if you carried this conversation to other older game system forums others would tell you this also, The mass is not going to agree with you. Your method is not as good,does not look as good,is bulky and not viable. As for flaming,I think we were all here before you,and your arguing with us,are you not?
-
I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron. And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.
I'm willing to have them if it significantly increases the quality in other areas, but the small increase in color quality RGB cables provide isn't enough for me to get another setup.
-
OK do this. Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera). It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2). Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page. Post it/them here. I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.
-
I feel like I'm reading the GameFaqs boards here...
What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs and they chased your dumbass away from there too??? Did you just think to yourself " Oh well, I bet over at PcEngineFX my arguement about my ultra leet method of running my MegaDrive on my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor with its 17 inch viewable display will convince others I am awesome and leet,and that I know everything about everything because I read it on wikipedia,and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler looks better then running my Dreamcast straight into my VGA monitor,cause I am SOOOOO leet it kills me and because my mommy luvs me special." ??? Well I guess you found different then huh???
-
OK do this. Take a picture or two of a game running on the TurboGrafx or Genesis (not a screen capture, do like I did with a digital camera). It can be a game of your choice (except Sonic 2). Take kind of a close-up picture like I did on the last page. Post it/them here. I won't compare it to my component setup, but I will compare it to S-video on an SDTV.
Most likely what will happen here is he will do this,compare and realize how ugly his is,then he will run out,get a SDTV,take a pic,then post that and claim its his computer method with Dscaler running.
-
What happened,did you try to carry this argument over at Gamefaqs
Uh, no. I tried reading the boards there once, but I got sick of the all the fanboy flamings well before I ever posted there.
my computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor
22 inch, actually.
and because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough Dscaler
Actually, I only do this for games that aren't compatible with the VGA box.
As for the rest of your post.... :roll: How old are you, exactly? Your opinion of DScaler seems to have no basis on its technical details, and your arguments against it consist of nothing but calling me names and making up stuff about me. I by no means think DScaler is perfect, especially for deinterlacing DVDs. But it will do until I get a standalone high-end upscaler. If you have anything mature to say about it, I'm willing to listen.
-
Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure. I have already seen it run,its not impressive,and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD,clean up and deinterlace the image with Dscaler. There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.
Besides the obvious image quality problems,the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself. Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch? Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,and produces a less desirable picture quality. Whats there to argue about???? You obviously are stupid.....
-
Look,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure.
Considering I'd have to get an entirely new monitor that can support RGB or get both a new TV and a transcoder yeah, I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).
I have already seen it run,its not impressive,
That doesn't tell me much.
On what kind of computer/monitor/capture card? What were the monitor and DScaler settings? It what ways was it not impressive?
and it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD and clean up the image with Dscaler.
DScaler is not capture software. It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC. My "capture card" is also made for this specific use. And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this. There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.
Besides the obvious image quality problems,
I'm not seeing any. Have any specific examples?
the fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself.
Doesn't bother me as I'm often using it for other things.
Couple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch?
20 or 21 I believe, but sitting in my normal chair, the screen fills a good bit of my field of vision. Sometimes I have to scoot back, depending on what's being displayed.
Your method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,
None of these things matter to me compared to the quality, which I am perfectly satisfied with for the time being.
and produces a less desirable picture quality.
You'll have to be more specific if you want this point to have any value.
I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.
-
Stop talking and start taking pictures! I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).
-
Stop talking and start taking pictures!
Sorry, I'm at work right now.
I don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).
They can, yes. But many, many are only stored as interlaced, especially TV shows, even if they're shot on film. DScaler and other deinterlacers can reconstruct the 24 film frames per second and display them as progressive video. This is a feature built into most DVD players nowadays, but the quality can vary.
-
DScaler is not capture software. It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC. My "capture card" is also made for this specific use. And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this. There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.
Well I hate to point this out to you,but when you run a DVD player along with anything else into a capture card,your capturing the image onto your computer,given the name,capture card. Nor did I even state that Dscaler is capture software,although it is a assisting program used to clean and view the captured image your desiring to view. In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes. As I said above as for deinterlacing DVDs,
There are better methods. I take it your trying to remove ghosting or artifacts? Try using IVTC inside TMPG and see if it does what your wanting.
I'll maybe take some pics of the display later, got some other stuff to finish first.
Thats what all the losers say....
I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).
Since your highest goal is aimed at getting the worst possible image with your older game systems why not just use emulaters on your leet set up instead???
Sorry, I'm at work right now.
If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....
As far as computers specs goes,it doesn't much matter,as long as you are using a good high end Athlon XP,2800-3200+,preferably Athlon 64,have at least 1-2 gigs of ram, a good chipset based motherboard,like a Nforce 2-Nforce 3 250 if your using a AGP All in Wonder,and a good modern All in Wonder 9800-2006 Edition your system should be fine and able to prevent dropped frames of your system,and with Dscaler use a Wintv or ATI Tv Wonder.
No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV. To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates. Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.
I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like. You may not admit to this,but it is essentially what your doing,and you are failing. And your also assuming because we don't use the "leet" method your using that we know nothing about it,but your wrong,because it ends up we know quite abit more then you.
Basically in the end you are just sitting there lying to yourself and willingly cheating yourself out of a better gaming image. In the end this is your choice,but no one here is going to agree with you about it,so maybe you should take your argument elsewhere,because you are all alone here.
-
In other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes.
I'm not using a filters to clean up the image. I'm just using DScaler to deinterlace (to 240p in the case of retro video games or 480p for DVDs, etc.). All this does is restore the original progressive image.
If so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....
I don't necessarily have to actually be working 100% of the time I'm at work.
No matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV.
This is your opinion, and you haven't said anything specific about how a video game looks poor using DScaler so I don't see why I should count your opinion as an informed one.
To some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates.
RGB is better than S-Video, but not by much. As for scanlines, the only thing they do for me is to help hide the fact that I'm seeing a low-resolution video game on a big screen, which doesn't bother me in the first place. YMMV.
Well,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.
Many weren't built with RGB output or even S-Video or composite output, either. Just like how Nintendo crippled the later releases of the Gamecube, I doubt if any of the makers thought the majority of gamers would be using their systems on anything but ghetto TVs.
I have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like.
Again, be more precise. How is DScaler not restoring a 240p image from the 480i output of a video game system?
-
Many systems ehh...
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,and in the case of the Master System,Genesis/Megadrive,NeoGeo you can use the XMD 1 or 2 to obtain S-video off of the RGB.Snes produces S-Video and RGB. As for the Gamecube being crippled,they never took S-video away,just the Digital AV port. Are you completely retarded???
And after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,how can your turn around and say its producing the exact same image as a old system on a SDTV at the same quality. When are you going to take pics. Give a time and do it,instead of blabbing more of your complete shite. See,its not up to the majority to prove you wrong,we already know you are,as about everything you have stated so far is from a technical standpoint,its up to you to prove the majority wrong,and you as of yet have made no valid attempt to do so.
Scanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED. If they intended you to view 240P without scanlines they would have given you otherwise. This is just how it was back then. There is no way around it without making it actually look worse. And the method your using,its a reproduction of the real thing,and it is not as good looking,and you flat out know this,as you have even admitted here and there. And you have yet to post pics,and I am doubtful you will,because you know your setup is going to look ugly as hell on your Megadrive or whatever other old system your going to use..
As far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,and 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per line count is also another reason. No matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video. Thats a simple fact you need to accept. And it def wont look better then our Tvs running older hardware.
Anyway,take your pics and post them,prove us wrong if you can.
-
Many systems ehh...
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,
Really crappy composite in some cases, and RGB could only be obtained with mods or homemade/imported cables, the American branches of the companies didn't do jack to give customers RGB. And there's plenty of video game systems that came out before the NES that only had RF.
Snes produces S-Video and RGB.
The first version of the SNES anyways.
And after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,
I never said it wasn't perfect for obtaining a 240p image from a video game system.
Scanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED.
This is nothing more than your opinion. A gamer can choose to play his video games however he likes, no video game company said you always have to play their games with scanlines. And the way games are designed isn't always absolute from an official standpoint, either. Game Boy games were designed to be played on a Game Boy, yet Nintendo brought out several ways to play them on a TV.
As far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,
A small difference in color quality hardly makes a big difference. The tint isn't off and colors look perfectly vibrant.
and 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per scan line count is also another reason.
So what? All the same pixels and lines are still being displayed, nothing is being dropped.
No matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video.
If you think composite is better than my setup just because it has scanlines, more power to you. Gave me a good laugh, though.
-
Well, I tried taking pictures, but I just have a crappy cellphone camera so they couldn't get an accurate picture of the screen (I also tried taking a picture of the desktop so I know it wasn't DScaler's fault). Oh well, you'd probably just use the lack of scanlines or some other excuse to bash it.
-
You have yet to post any pics,you just carry on with your typical flawed argument and now add complaints to it like "its hard to get a good RGB cable Blah Blah Blah Whine Whine Whine" Funny your esp complaining about how the American side of things went,when you don't even live here it sounds like.
This is nothing more than your opinion. A gamer can choose to play his video games however he likes, no video game company said you always have to play their games with scanlines. And the way games are designed isn't always absolute from an official standpoint, either. Game Boy games were designed to be played on a Game Boy, yet Nintendo brought out several ways to play them on a TV.
Yes you can choose the display method of your choice,that is your right,however what I said is not a matter of opinion but of fact. The official standpoint was decided and stated when they placed RF,composite,Av and rgb ports on these systems. The game systems created back then were indeed created and designed to be displayed on SDTVs and RGB monitors and since these had scanlines its pretty obvious they go hand in hand. THIS is all there was at the time,all there was for over 40 years to the general public.
This has been fact since NTSC color television standard was decided on and invented in the 50ies and up until HDTV was made SDTV WAS the ONLY standard available to the normal masses as the in-home visual display unit for game systems and video devices. SDTV and RGB monitors are the obvious best choice visual quality wise as nothing up to date has looked better for older game systems. This will always remain fact,because alot of HDTV sets do not work well with older 240P game systems and LD players,and exhibit flaws in the visual quality and this will only continue to get worse as SDTV is pushed away in favor of completely switching over to HDTV.
SDTV and RGB analog monitors are the best option for old systems visually,if you want the best picture quality.
Your Gameboy argument is not exactly up to snuff because your taking a game from one system and running it on another via re-engineering methods of hardware along with a adapter. This took alot of work to do,and in the end actually did not look all that great.
All they did was give you a chance for a larger viewing area and a horrible swappable color palette and junk borders. And I am not sure how you these have great or improved visual quality,as all I remember there being was the Super Game Boy 1 and 2,with both having the same CRAP visual quality,and the Superwideboy which was horrible also because the coloring was off and the image was muddled,plus it carried a $1400 price tag. Then you have the GBA Gamecube adapter which in itself has its own set of visual problems.
-
Well, I tried taking pictures, but I just have a crappy cellphone camera so they couldn't get an accurate picture of the screen (I also tried taking a picture of the desktop so I know it wasn't DScaler's fault). Oh well, you'd probably just use the lack of scanlines or some other excuse to bash it.
LOL I think we were expecting you to come up with some sort of lame excuse,and you did,so f*ck off and stop arguing about something you know nothing about. You're a joke.
BTW,you got home from work and tried to take those pics pretty fast. Sure you were even at work??? Maybe we should have Keranu check to see if the ip address matches for the past few post you did... Oh wait,now you'll probably say you work at home and you only had to travel from your moms computer to your computer in your bedroom I bet. :P
-
Whatever man. I seriously doubt anything would convince you that using DScaler doesn't produce a crappy image, despite you not offering a shred of evidence as to why it sucks other than the minor color difference. You've convinced me of nothing.
I'm gonna go enjoy some beautiful video games rendered on my Mitsubishi CRT in 240p with no scanlines. I hope you stock up on RGB monitors to keep playing games your way for the next couple decades, as they're getting harder to find day by day.
-
Hard to find how and in what way.... I am surrounded by Best Buys,Circuit City,Wal-Marts,K-Marts,Targets,Sears who sell SDTV sets and arcade vendors who sell RGB tubes and monitors. Not only that,but I don't think ebay is going anywhere and I already have 3 SDTV sets as it is. Yea I will buy a 2-3 more eventually,and they will probably last me my life time as I will only be using them for older hardware.
As I stated before,you obviously hate scanlines,and you seek to try to improve your older game systems image quality with your computer,and you fail. Scanlines are a key factor at making the image look good on lower res systems. Line doubling old game systems just gives a emulated look,like on HDTV sets.
-
As I have said many times, RF and Composite are the only true path to Peace, Love and Happiness. :)
Seriously, though, let's just play some PCE games and be happy :).
-
Michael: Buster D isn't attacking you with insults so why are you attacking him? Please either take a chill pill or just STFU.
-
Michael: Buster D isn't attacking you with insults so why are you attacking him? Please either take a chill pill or just STFU.
Bonknuts why don't you stfu. You totally missed this little conversation I am guessing since I did not see you post once during the 8-10 hours that conversation went on,as we were all having a technical argument,and this guy was either blantently lying or fooling himself into believing he is right,and obviously was making false technical statements he could not back up nor did he want to admit he is wrong.
He couldn't provide his magic proof of his superior,not superior,then superior again according to him picture quality,obviously was not at work,maybe doing homework from school,but not working...either way he was arguing a subject he was wrong on on about every point.
As for insulting,I did not really insult him,not terribly at least on anything other then the fact he was wrong and couldn't prove he was right,other then to tell him to f*ck off and stop arguing after he failed to deliver his "proof" to prove he is so so right. I didn't call him little lying bitch,lying faggot,lying a$$hole,lying dumbass,lying idiot ect ect... I didnt tell him he was molested by his daddy or momma,accuse him of raping little children ect ect...
I laugh at how members like you come along many many hours after the argument is over and go" Oh boy,we better get a word in too".You even do it on threads where a comment hasn't even been posted again for days. Its so damn laughable. If you want to help the guy out,try to prove him right,but don't get mad at me cause the guy is wrong and wants to argue about something he does not know much of nothing about. The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???
-
Posting just to get my word in this topic
-
The argument was over hours ago. Better get my word in too!
-
So... there are time limits as to when you can and can't post? i.e. if it's 8-10 hours later, too bad?
lol :clap:
-
I laugh at how members like you come along many many hours after the argument is over and go" Oh boy,we better get a word in too".You even do it on threads where a comment hasn't even been posted again for days. Its so damn laughable. If you want to help the guy out,try to prove him right,but don't get mad at me cause the guy is wrong and wants to argue about something he does not know much of nothing about. The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???
I think you guys know what I meant,I was pretty clear about it. People coming around to help a guy carry his argument when the argument is already over and has been obviously for hours or days,and don't even have anything to offer to help him back up his points is not helping him at all,its just a method of trying to keep a argument stirred up without actually having anything solid to contribute to win one side over to the others theories as to why they are correct. Now your just being silly,but silly is good,getting lighthearted is a good way of getting things back on track.
-
The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???
I already posted my opinion previously on the argument. My last post was about your behavior, not the argument. People like you are the reason PCE/TG16 fans don't come here as often or anymore. How about showing some sort of restraint or at least a little respect? But whatever. I'll just go back to pce dev/projects and disregard this board.
Btw, some of us have jobs. Jobs that, you know, get in the way to keeping up with a thread hour by hour and prevents us from posting. It's such a drag.
-
The argument is done and over now,you missed the game,move on unless you can prove him right somehow,unless of course you are just blantently trying to start a argument with me???
I already posted my opinion previously on the argument. My last post was about your behavior, not the argument. People like you are the reason PCE/TG16 fans don't come here as often or anymore. How about showing some sort of restraint or at least a little respect? But whatever. I'll just go back to pce dev/projects and disregard this board.
Btw, some of us have jobs. Jobs that, you know, get in the way to keeping up with a thread hour by hour and prevents us from posting. It's such a drag.
Your last comment did not help his argument,that being MY point. And if he was at work he obviously was not working,and inbetween all that posting he got home really fast to attempt to take pics,before copping out. It became a put up or shut up argument,and he couldn't put up,so he needs to shut up. If he has no way to win his obviously flawed case he needs to stop while he is ahead,instead of pretending to know what he is talking about,and saying his method looks awesome,or even great,because removing scanlines from a older game system image does not improve it,esp if hes running Genesis via composite,its just going to be really ugly. He thought he knew what Super VGA was but was wrong there too.
As for the comment about lack of membership here,that is not my fault. If you want a comparison,the Neo forums are full of real insulting,ranting,bickering,name calling,and the membership there is extremely high. Arguments here take place hardly at all. And if your going to toss blame on me,you have to toss blame on all members partaking in the arguments that have taken place here. You want membership here to expand more,instead of complaining about me,go out and promote this site more,try to recruit more people into the fold,and if at all possible,make it people who have half a idea as to what they are talking about,or are at least humble enough to know they are wrong and able to learn. I typically point alot of ebay customers of mine that collect games in this direction,if nothing else then to just get a look at the site.
As for members leaving because of members like me in vast amounts,I'm sorry I did not notice,because all I have seen here is about the exact same members posting since I joined. With the exception of some new ones including you,as I have been a member here almost a year longer then you have been,and post twice as much. I would def have noticed this more then you if it had been occurring. Now there has been a few people who joined,but only to sell stuff,or ask a question or 2,then they go on and do their own thing. Thats completely fine and you can't blame that kind of activity on members like me.
-
Enough, enough! This is tedious in the extreme. Nobody else on this forum cares who is at fault when personal attacks come up. Straying off-topic is bad enough, but doing it with personal gibes at each other makes us all unhappy.
-
Lock please!
-
Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it? :P
-
Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it? :P
Yeah - anyone do a good RGB mod? :lol:
-
Why lock topics? That's for pussies. I can see why Joe and Mike get so pissed about this, its like on the Gamesx forums when somebody pretends to know what they're talking about, then they get dismantled by a couple of the regulars, its hilarious.
-
Word.
-
Why lock topics? That's for pussies. I can see why Joe and Mike get so pissed about this, its like on the Gamesx forums when somebody pretends to know what they're talking about, then they get dismantled by a couple of the regulars, its hilarious.
:) Indeed. As a general policy, I don't think we should lock topics. Thus far, I don't think this thread warrants any further measures.
Plus, I think it's more important that we "police" ourselves. We have been doing a decent job of it.
I just wish we could find out what games Buster D was playing on his set-up! Tell us Buster, if you're still out there...
-
Well,you know he could have just as easily put up his pics as proof,but I mean,he kept changing his opinion of the picture quality,and I know how well Dscaler runs,and I do not like it for games. It doesn't matter how well you tweak it,its not going to give you as good a picture for older game systems as he would like to believe. Also,I knew what his goal was,without him even saying it.
He was using his comp and Dscaler to avoid SDTVs scanlines and try to improve the game systems picture,which just can not be done by that method,as it does not look as natural or as normal as on a well made SDTV. He even confirmed it with this remark:
But it will do until I get a standalone high-end upscaler.
I do not know if he even considered this but a high end up-scaler even worth buying is up there well past $1500.
Couple this with the cost of a good HDTV just to avoid scanlines and your talking madness. At this rate he would be better off just playing roms on emus. Its the look hes gunning for and since thats the case it would be cheaper to do the emu scene instead.
Dscaler is good for deinterlacing video like VHS and LD and if your lazy, DVD to watch on the fly. However if you really want to deinterlace DVD at the best quality it is better to do it by another method,like in Tmpg. Takes longer,but the end product will look nicer.Dscaler also works well for reducing video noise on analog video like VHS and Laserdisc on the fly and detecting and removing 2:2 pulldown of Pal and 3:2 pulldown on stuff. Its a better suited program for video,not video games.
The other problem I kinda have with Dscaler is it can give a slightly blurred look after its done doing its thing,and this is more obvious with DVDs watched trough it. But I mean,its the quickest method,and the quickest is not going to look the best easily.
The guy is going trough alot of hassle just to run his older game systems and there is no excuse for that really when he could avoid all that and just embrace the fact the stuff will look fine on a normal SDTV. Hes trying to be too techie and leet with his computer then anything else. Oh yea,the other prob,and this is well known,is that Dscaler has issues with a variety of capture cards,so if your buying one just for it you should check the list of known working cards. ATIs TV Wonder works well,that I am sure of.
-
Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it? :P
I like pie :-$
-
Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it? :P
I like pie :-$
Ummmm... hair pie - yes, I am a post whore. :twisted:
It's funny how people will defend their ideas regardless of how many times they are shown the error of their ways. DScaler would almost make sense if the goal were to use an HDTV. Old consoles look best on a SDTV, but not everybody wants to have another set around the house for games. Not to mention there is a lack of new, quality CRT sets in larger sizes in either SDTV or HDTV (unfortunately, tubes are going the way of the dodo bird). If you're going to use a computer at all, why not cut out the middle man, box up the console for storage, and just use an emulator? Does anybody on here do this? When my set goes into the great beyond, I figure that will be the route that I take.
-
Would anyone else like to get a word in before I lock it? :P
I like pie :-$
For that matter where's the pie!?
1+
I'm sure some body will get the joke.
-
cake > pie
-
To return to what a lot of this topic was originally about, I've been looking at the differences between composite and Xbox emulation via SCART, and I've come to the conclusion that composite in some games has an advantage over RGB, though overall RGB is preferable.
Volfied, for example, has a colourful pattern in the areas filled in screen one, but on the emulator, the pattern is black and white, and looks less interesting. The patterns were clearly designed to be seen through composite.
A more blatant example can be found in Kung Fu. Stage 1-2 has a red sky and a red reflection in the water, and it dithers like crazy through composite. When playing it on the emulator, you can see why. The dithering covers up the limitations of the parallax scrolling, because without it, the foreground water appears to be connected to the footpath! It moves at the same speed, thus destroying the effect of the scrolling background.
To play devil's advocate though, I think the colour in Xevious is brilliant on RGB.
-
cake > pie
Dude no way, cake sucks 90% of the time. Pie > Cake easily. I think the best answer is Donut > Everything.
-
cake > pie
Dude no way, cake sucks 90% of the time. Pie > Cake easily. I think the best answer is Donut > Everything.
Dude, it goes Cake > Donut < Pie.
Seriously :roll:
You've got to get your mom, girlfiend, grandma, whoever, to brush up on their baking skills. [-X
-
Cake of course. Pie sucks 90% of the time. It's cream buns > everything anyway.
-
cake > pie
Dude no way, cake sucks 90% of the time. Pie > Cake easily. I think the best answer is Donut > Everything.
I will conceed that Jam Doughnut > Cake but that's it.
-
I will conceed that Jam Doughnut > Cake but that's it.
Krispy kreme = FTW!!
And yea back to topic .. I seriously would love to mod my pc engine..
-
I will conceed that Jam Doughnut > Cake but that's it.
Krispy kreme = FTW!!
And yea back to topic .. I seriously would love to mod my pc engine..
There's a topic?
-
You've got to get your mom, girlfiend, grandma, whoever, to brush up on their baking skills. [-X
Sorry, I only trust Tim Horton's mad skillz.
-
You've got to get your mom, girlfiend, grandma, whoever, to brush up on their baking skills. [-X
Sorry, I only trust Tim Horton's mad skillz.
Jesus, are you saying they've invaded the U.S. now?
-
No, at least I don't think so. But Tim Horton is a man I would put my trust into.
-
I stopped by a Tim Horton in New England while on a North-America road-trip. Can't remember exactly what state it was though...
-
BTW Joe my son said he read your KPJ AES died a ugly death. Sucks to be you man,sucks to be you. Contact OSG or Razoola,maybe they can help without you paying tons to Kenny again. I fixed two consolized MVS systems like a year and a half ago that both I think came from Kenny possibly. The problem was the AD chip on the encoders were not soldered down well and had to be redone. The consolization looked like Kennys stuff,coulda been Arcade Kingdom too,and the encoders were Neobitz junk. The problem was either Kurtz didn't solder the chips down good,or they were the do it yourself kits and the person doing the consolization did a shoddy job putting them together.
If they had the NeoBitz encoder, they were not my systems. I only use JROK encoders.
I wasn't aware that I charged a ton for repairs :) Have we done business together in the past?
-
You must have missed my post stating:
Thats really good of him then if he wont charge to fix it.I don't know him personally,from what I do know he sounds better then Dean and Kurtz when it comes to quality work,but I have also heard that at pricing he is the most evil bastard out there which is why I recommended contacting the other 2 first..
Like I said,also,the 2 consolized 1-slots I fixed,they coulda been KPJ stuff,or even ArcadeKingdom. At that time period I only knew of KPJ consolizing 1-slots and actually selling them.
If KPJ fixes the prob for you,you should give him some extra kudos for it on the Neo forums,because I'm sure he could use it there. Most of the bad stuff said about him I ever read originated there. It could be the bios went bad. Wouldn't be the first time its happened. wire coulda came loose too. Who knows.
BTW you lost on the 1-slot auction I was selling,however I would not have sold it to you anyway.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260093106602&rd=1&rd=1
I am well aware of your practices on ebay along with Arcadekingdom for buying up MVS pcbs on the cheap and consolizing them and trying to sucker people into buying them making $200-300 profit along with the AES modded system price gouging as evident here:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&since=30&userid=neotropolis&include=0&rows=50&sort=3&completed=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/REI-Neo-Geo-AES-System-HDTV-Video-UniBios-2-3-w-Box_W0QQitemZ270096504561QQcategoryZ187QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
compared to your buying prices here:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=neotropolis&completed=1&all=1&rows=100&sort=3
(sign in on ebay before you can view the above link,its required to view auctions by bidder)
I can only imagine what your prices are outside of ebay....
I had thought I added you to my ebay blocked member list but guess I did not till after I saw you bid on one of my auctions.You are added now as of last night. I can not personally judge you by your pricing on repairs,only go by what I have read or been told,which I tend to ignore alot of it if its on the Neo forums with no valid proof presented,however I can easily judge you by your prices on ebay which go right along with everything bad said about you in that respect. I think saying your the "Director of Noobsploitation" in the NeoGeo consolization/mod/resale market would not be a stretch of the truth here.
The only positive thing I can say is your quality is very nice looking and clean,but not heads above what anyone else out there can do,including that of Dean and Kurtz even though I despise them both personally. As for the two 1-slots repaired,I said I did not know their original origin,so I guess they could have come from you along with coming from others.
The work on the jacks and Db 15,ect ect looked like your stuff but could have been ArcadeKingdom just as easily,or even Deans,however Dean made it out like he had nothing to do with them when I had originally mentioned them in another post long ago.. If you use Jroks then thats cool,as he builds great encoders. I had at one point in time intended on using him more but found another seller who uses Sony CX 1645 chips also and the price was lower at the same build quality. None the less Jrok is a very nice guy and is very helpful.
That and my limited understanding of things was that Kurtz hates you as much as I hate Kurtz,so I had read at least, so I could see why you would choose the superior Jrok over the Neobitz.
I also would like to know what the deal is with you guys. You,Kurtz,Dean,NGF. I notice you guys show up like weeks,months latter to post a comment on a thread in a forum community where you had been mentioned in some manner or another,like you stumbled upon it while googling yourself. If thats what you guys do,google your own names now and then worrying about what is said about you then I really do pity you. I mean,you go to all this effort to sign up to make one to maybe 10 post,then run off back to the Neo forums or where ever. Kinda silly and vain/egoish.
-
KPJ, welcome to the forums.
Imagine the PCE forums as a neutral country, like Switzerland. It follows thus:
If you drag your wars from elsewhere over our borders to disturb us, we will not like you. Michael, same goes for you. Does anybody besides those involved in this flame war here care? If people do, then I will be quiet and just avoid this thread and others.
-
KPJ, welcome to the forums.
Imagine the PCE forums as a neutral country, like Switzerland. It follows thus:
If you drag your wars from elsewhere over our borders to disturb us, we will not like you. Michael, same goes for you. Does anybody besides those involved in this flame war here care? If people do, then I will be quiet and just avoid this thread and others.
Considering you only joined this Jan and have posted barely over 50 times here its kinda silly to dictate how it goes here. The proper way would have probably been for Kenny to have posted introducing himself FIRST probably more then joining up just to quote a old post of mine and talking to me directly. In doing so he rightfully gets a reply back from me,as he wondered if we had dealings before and I responded by saying he bid on a 1-slot I sold,but I refuse to sell to him because he is a profiteer. I also do not think its a flame war. He posted,I responded with a very civil even if somewhat coldly exposing response and made a good point of wondering why people join only to make a few post in the manner he did and then just run off back to where ever,in his case being the Neo-Geo forums...
I understand what you are trying to say and I respect that,you don't want to see a all out name calling profanity filled thread destroying war here,esp on a otherwise great thread like this. I don't think you have anything to worry about. And if it did happen,you ALWAYS have the option to ignore the post and move on to another thread. Part of the joy,and sometimes dreadfulness of the threads here is they tend to start on one subject and break down to something completely different,and then go back again ccovell. You have not been here long enough to realize that I guess,so you will either end up embracing that completely or hating it all together and end up not posting as much.
Also,I am assuming you know nothing of KPJ/Kenny,and am sure the same goes for alot of other members here,so the info I provided would be more or less helpful incase Kenny did start to be a regular here for the sole purpose of profit as he was completely exposed in doing on the Neo forums. When people like that join up I would encourage as much as possible for as much info be posted about them as possible to keep things in check. This gives otherwise unknowning members who may possibly make a purchase and possibly being ripped off have the ability to be more informed about said person in advance.
If Kenny is here to actually post as a normal member of some type,and embrace this community as something other then a chance to make cash off of then great and it would be awesome if he stuck around,but I am doubtful this will happen,let alone his sticking around for anything at all.
-
Considering you only joined this Jan and have posted barely over 50 times here its kinda silly to dictate how it goes here.
I anticipated this response, and that's why I asked others who have been here longer to voice their opinions. I'll stay (relatively) quiet and see what others have to say.
-
Yea,understandable. Opinion tends to be varied,and usually tends to be subject to whats going on in each individual situation,and even then its come down to half and half member opinion wise on some things. If you go back to page 20 of this thread I think that was pretty evident example of how it can be around here. Good topic,breaks down into a argument sometimes,then breaks down into humor,then gets back on topic,ect ect. Its actually fairly normal here for that to happen often. That happens alot when you have a variety of members with such different personalities.
-
Does anybody besides those involved in this flame war here care?
I care. I always care!
-
It makes for some interesting reading.
-
Ahh modders and there egos :lol:
-
...then breaks down into humor...
"breaks down" into humor? No sir. Humor kicks ass. If it breaks down, then it is just stupid and not funny (like that whole pie thing). Take me for example. I am always funny, except when I'm not. So instead of saying it breaks down into humor, you should say that it evolves into humor, the members become pleased, the world rejoices and then the topic resumes. I would demand an apology from you, but I'm a bit lazy tonight.
-
I love sarcastic and dark humor. The light stuff I'm not so keen on. Typically the best humor is found at someone else's expense.
-
Tron,your a member on the Neo forums,what is your thoughts on Kenny anyway? Have you purchased from him before,is the constant complaining about him still going on over there? Also,Joe,how much did Kenny charge you for your AES and what all mods did he do?
-
I had to look this up because I didn't memorize everything since it was so long ago, but I had him add the Universe BIOS chip + socket and do an RGB bypass or "pure RGB" as some people call it since SNK is so god damned incompetent and can't even design their systems to have good video. The total was $70 plus return shipping.
-
Did you ever find out what went wrong with the system?
-
Tron,your a member on the Neo forums,what is your thoughts on Kenny anyway? Have you purchased from him before,is the constant complaining about him still going on over there? Also,Joe,how much did Kenny charge you for your AES and what all mods did he do?
Yeah am a member over at neo-geo.com.
Still i've never bought from him i still think he prices gouges too much.
Btw he still is mock over there for his practices on priceing not much on his service.
Just a while ago i was talking to some friends over in "the ng.com chat room" and the subject of kenny came up.
One member that i talk too that does mods pointed out a sale thread, by him and laugh at what kpj charges for.
Now.. i all most did deal with him back in 05 when i was looking for a cmvs.
Still afther looking at his price for one i didn't want spent 'that much on a cmvs in the frist place.
So in the end i got mine from a different member insted.
-
Prob sounds stupid Joe,but I was always assuming you did all of your own system mods. The $70 he charged is a bit high but still within reasonable bounds. I have heard of worse,but a fair price would have been more around 50 bucks really. Anyway,whatever was wrong with it and has it been fixed yet? I am always interested in reading about AES horror stories as I only deal with the MVS stuff now.
-
Considering you only joined this Jan and have posted barely over 50 times here its kinda silly to dictate how it goes here.
I anticipated this response, and that's why I asked others who have been here longer to voice their opinions. I'll stay (relatively) quiet and see what others have to say.
Yeah Mr. Covell - what the hell do you know? M.H. has been here bitching at new members, whining about high prices, and telling people to go away for two whole years longer than you - almost since the beginning of time itself. If only you had come here sooner - and not wasted your time programming for the PC Engine - then you could be a post whore too. It's too bad that this forum accepts new members after 1/23/05 (aka the second coming of Christ), as everyone who joined afterwards is full of worthless opinions and can make no useful addition to this otherwise fine forum. There obviously isn't any flaming in a post accusing someone of being the 'Director of Noobsploitation'. You were seriously mistaken. Anybody who charges anything more than $1 for their time to perform a console modification is clearly a thieving bag of douche. Don't forget - all true oenophiles know that no bottle of wine is worth a tin shit unless it costs at least $200. Anything less is for hobos.
P.S. - Above post positively reeks of sarcasm. To save your click, my join date is 1/1/06. :D
-
Awesome post. :)
-
Considering you only joined this Jan and have posted barely over 50 times here its kinda silly to dictate how it goes here.
I anticipated this response, and that's why I asked others who have been here longer to voice their opinions. I'll stay (relatively) quiet and see what others have to say.
Yeah Mr. Covell - what the hell do you know? M.H. has been here bitching at new members, whining about high prices, and telling people to go away for two whole years longer than you - almost since the beginning of time itself. If only you had come here sooner - and not wasted your time programming for the PC Engine - then you could be a post whore too. It's too bad that this forum accepts new members after 1/23/05 (aka the second coming of Christ), as everyone who joined afterwards is full of worthless opinions and can make no useful addition to this otherwise fine forum. There obviously isn't any flaming in a post accusing someone of being the 'Director of Noobsploitation'. You were seriously mistaken. Anybody who charges anything more than $1 for their time to perform a console modification is clearly a thieving bag of douche. Don't forget - all true oenophiles know that no bottle of wine is worth a tin shit unless it costs at least $200. Anything less is for hobos.
P.S. - Above post positively reeks of sarcasm. To save your click, my join date is 1/1/06. :D
Actually,I didn't accuse him of being anything he has not been proven to be already,not just with any info I have posted here for you to read up on,but just as well you can search for info on him on the Neo forums.... Typically only noobs to the Neo scene end up buying from him because they simply did not know better at the time. You obviously know little of nothing about him and his prices. Where as I typically consider Dean or Kurtz pretty bad, Kenny is far far worse. As for being the director of noobsploytation,that is something he is WIDELY known for on the Neo forums and referred to being.
Kennys habits involve things like buying up 60 dollar MVS 1-slots,consolizing them with $130 in parts and selling them for over $500 are well known. I think at one point in time he tried to charge someone over 1300 bucks for a consolized 6-slot MVS,which would have been around $800 in profit about. Last I checked telling 2 complete dumbasses to go away was not a crime. 1 was trying to rip people off here,another was arguing a subject he knew little of nothing on.
While you may not agree with that,some others do. Ultimately the mods decide how exactly the forums here go down,what will be allowed and what wont,but I did try to point out to ccovell how the treads usually end up going on here. You may not agree with this Necro,but you proved it to be true none the less with your last post. :) BTW I never said ccovell was wasting his time just because he has only been a member here since Jan. Actually he has a pretty awesome website with alot of great information. I tend to respect that more then anything,the sharing of information and its easy to see he has been very very busy. As for me,I work,am raising kids,and in my spare time I post here and refurbish arcade games and build superguns to sale on ebay,and yes,I still maintain low prices.Last SG kit I sold was for around 100 bucks,and the last MVS 2-slot consolized system I sold was for around $300.
Last I checked keranu was the mod who commonly post here,and he tends to make very sound judgements,so I know if he feels something is completely out of hand he would lock the thread or whatever.
P.S. - I think its totally awesome how you spent more clicks looking up my exact join date and how you refer to me as the second coming of Christ. I however don't tend to spend time wasting clicks on profiles for exact join dates. I usually just remember when new faces join up. Also,I had already pre-expected another member or Seldane specifically to make a post like this,but I was pretty shocked to see that all Seldane the worm could do was stand back and pick up your crumbs on this one. Kudos to you for that. Last I remember Seldane was actually the instigator of a pretty large flame/argument on one of these threads over the pc-engine mod switch so his opinion doesn't count for nill with me anymore.
-
Not just any worm. Lord Worm, if I may.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/9692/wormws5.gif)
-
My sincerest apologies M.H. Perhaps you could consult a dictionary for a definition of sarcasm.
I love sarcastic and dark humor. The light stuff I'm not so keen on. Typically the best humor is found at someone else's expense.
Apparently this comment only applies in the extreme literal sense and never in a jest at your expense.
I don't give one wit what the gentleman in question has charged for his services or how many noobs have overpaid for said services (caveat emptor and what not). No products or services were offered in this thread, so you couldn't have been protecting any forum members from his wily ways. This is a TG-16 / PCE forum and not a NeoGeo forum, but all great threads stray from the topic anyway - I'm not a moderator, but I do have some common sense. Last I checked, you are not a moderator either, yet you seem to believe that it is your duty to dictate proper posting etiquette, as shown below.
Considering you only joined this Jan and have posted barely over 50 times here its kinda silly to dictate how it goes here. The proper way would have probably been for Kenny to have posted introducing himself FIRST probably more then joining up just to quote a old post of mine and talking to me directly.
Why do you consistently comment on members join dates and post count? Your opinion is no more valid than a long time lurker's or a new member's (or mine, obviously). One of the new members that you told to skedaddle offered some mod. I don't remember what and don't want you to get too excited because I spent too much time looking for an old thread. You thought that this mod was too expensive, yet nobody else was currently offering the same mod for a comparable price. You could have simply stated that the price was too high and moved on, but you chose to attempt to have the new comer impose self-banishment (which sadly seems to have worked). Explaining that it's cheaper to just do it yourself is rather asinine. Not everybody desires to or has the ability to do their own work (i.e. Jiffy Lubes on every street corner). However, I do commend you on your attempt to explain the full circle logic of wandering thread topics eventually returning to the original topic.
Way to bring on the flames for Seldane. Do not construe this as a defense of Seldane - there are no black helicopters here. I just don't see the reason to insult another forum member because of their response to my post. Did nobody else see the humor of my original post? Is it a crime if a member comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of another member's post? Perhaps Seldane's opinion is worth slightly more than nil to you, or else you wouldn't drag out flame thrower so quickly.
P.S. - It warms the cockles of my heart that you worry about my profile clicking habits, or maybe it only warms the sub-cockles. :lol:
-
I love sarcastic and dark humor. The light stuff I'm not so keen on. Typically the best humor is found at someone else's expense.
This comment applies to anyone,including myself. It basically means I find it more interesting then talk of pie > cake or whatever.
I don't give one wit what the gentleman in question has charged for his services or how many noobs have overpaid for said services (caveat emptor and what not). No products or services were offered in this thread, so you couldn't have been protecting any forum members from his wily ways. This is a TG-16 / PCE forum and not a NeoGeo forum
Well,you could have fooled me,but either way I was replying to Kenny,he did directly aim his post at me did he not?
Also,I know you don't care,you prob don't give a shit about anyone getting ripped off by anyone. I on the other hand tend to care. Also,I tend to like most of the members here,so in a sense I am protective. Sorry that bothers you. I know that you are only carrying this argument on just to do so,not in any real attempt to prove any moral of the day,or to try to protect anyone This is a self serving argument for you that you have disguised in you moralities.
I'm not a moderator, but I do have some common sense. Last I checked, you are not a moderator either, yet you seem to believe that it is your duty to dictate proper posting etiquette, as shown below.
You are right,I am not a mod here. And I said PROBABLY,I know you missed that,because in your current rage you have not really read anything I said word for word. Also while this is not law,it tends to be the going way on forums,that when you join you introduce your self,say hi,ect ect. This way people can know who you are. Again,I have already stated,thi sis not law,in the end as I said before,its up to the Mods to decide.
Why do you consistently comment on members join dates and post count? Your opinion is no more valid than a long time lurker's or a new member's (or mine, obviously).
I was not aware I did this constantly,but posting more often does show you like to post in the community more. Less posting = less activity = dead forums. Typically when I post I tend to make it larger ones,not a bunch of short one liners except on maybe a thread like the youtube one. Contrary to you accusing me of being a post whore,I tend to only post on these types of threads.
One of the new members that you told to skedaddle offered some mod. I don't remember what and don't want you to get too excited because I spent too much time looking for an old thread. You thought that this mod was too expensive, yet nobody else was currently offering the same mod for a comparable price. You could have simply stated that the price was too high and moved on, but you chose to attempt to have the new comer impose self-banishment (which sadly seems to have worked).
This mod is still being offered by Dean,actually its not so much a mod as it is a fix. Also,I offered to do it for deans price incase Dean did stop. Even though I don't like Dean,I found it kinda disgusting that the guy specifically used Deans info in a attempt to make money in that manner,and used deans thread to direct attention to his own. Only the gullible would have paid his asking fee.
Explaining that it's cheaper to just do it yourself is rather asinine. Not everybody desires to or has the ability to do their own work (i.e. Jiffy Lubes on every street corner).
Actually the info is there to encourage people to try to do it themselves,to show how easy it is. If people learned how to do their own fixs/mods they would be more proud of the work then if they simply paid to have it done for them. Plus,stressing to try to learn to do things yourself is not asinine.
If Dean,or I,or anyone else who does this type of stuff simply stopped where would all these people be? I do not think anyone here wants to buy Duos and Turbo Express systems over and over again. That would be a tad too expensive. Some people learning to do this stuff on their own keeps that situation from ever occurring and keeps people in the know around to help,not profit off other members. As it is there is not too many people out there willing to do this stuff for the NEC systems,as it does not carry a large customer base.
I just don't see the reason to insult another forum member because of their response to my post.
Well its a tad hypocritical for Seldane to cheer you on for saying I'm starting a flame war when he has been guilty of doing the same himself.
Did nobody else see the humor of my original post?
Will it worry you if nobody does???
Is it a crime if a member comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of another member's post? Perhaps Seldane's opinion is worth slightly more than nil to you, or else you wouldn't drag out flame thrower so quickly.
My answer to that is again:
Well its a tad hypocritical for Seldane to cheer you on for saying I'm starting a flame war when he has been guilty of doing the same himself.
It warms the cockles of my heart that you worry about my profile clicking habits, or maybe it only warms the sub-cockles.
Actually it was you worried I might have a habit of doing so,after all you hastly pointed out your join info in a attempt to save me time. Sorry if I gave you any warm feelings, I don't worry one bit about you. You are mistaken or have been mislead into thinking so. You give me no reason to care about you as a member of these forums. However it seems I worry you a great deal,as you still continue to respond to me on here over my reply to Kenny and ccovell and seemed to have been the constant monitor of my postings over a long period of time. It seems I am litterly your favorite subject of the day. It will be interesting if you carry on this argument about me into tomorrow too.
P.S.- Its also a tad gay you are so focused on me today,even when worshipping Jesus there needs to be limits. I say do it in moderation.
-
Michael, the current problem with my AES could not be discovered, so I am having it returned to me. I'll get a new AES when I care enough about the system (the Neo Geo and its games are pretty unexciting with a few exceptions). I bought the AES from an eBay guy called Sheriff and the Frog or something like that. I won't buy from him again mainly because everything he sells seems to smell like smoke.
-
I'll be taking a vote on if this thread should be locked or not. CAST YOUR VOTES!
-
No. Certainly not yet. It's not insane enough to lock.
-
Lol I have seen him on ebay selling AES stuff. I was wondering about him because of the name. Has replacing the bios been tried yet on your dead system? Esp switching it back to a original? Also,I have seen Sheriff sell stuff as broken before,but he list it in the auction details that it has damage of some type. All in all that completely sucked that that happened none the less. I used to love the AES but after a few years just found it cheaper to mess with the MVS side of it all. Its cheaper to fix or replace then the home system and its games.
-
Yes that was all tried. No good. Maybe some bad RAM or a bad 68000 maybe? That'd be my guess. Maybe I'll put my spare Sega CD 12.5 Mhz 68000 in there. Or perhaps not. :)
Anyway the AES I got from Sheriff worked fine when I received it. It worked fine for nearly a year or however long it has been that I have had it. When I first opened it up I was disgusted at what looked like an amateur mod to attempt to improve the composite video with some sort of daughter board. I posted a picture of it on the Neo Geo forums and they said that was the work of SNK themselves. They said that SNK was so incompetent and not dedicated to quality that they had to do this mod just to get the composite video up to just below Genesis standards and they had to do it sloppily since they didn't know what they were doing. Actually they didn't say that but that's how I interpreted it. It was definitely an SNK job.
-
Yea your right. The daughter board was to improve composite on those units that had horrible composite out. For the price of the systems it was pretty sad they had those video issues on the first couple of runs. I had a deck that had really bad composite out,lacked the daughterboard. It was a Jp deck and was the third AES I ever owned and by far the worst. I was overall pretty pissed off over it so I modded it for S-video. This was back in 1999. the last runs had much better composite,but the RGB ended up not being as good. But really,its not all that bad RGB wise still.
But I mean,yea all in all,no excuse for the flaws they had. For the asking price they should have been near perfect.
-
Spector, I've PM'd you about this!
-
I haven't read all of this, but to throw some Good news in here:
I just had my AES modded by Jeff Kurtz, and it was an excellent experience from beginning to end. I have never been happier with my Neo since I bought it when they came out in the US. I still want to get my Duo modded by D-Lite, but I may have to move soon, so I have to hold off for a while.
-
I still want to get my Duo modded by D-Lite, but I may have to move soon, so I have to hold off for a while.
D-Lite has been M.I.A as of late i would wait untile afther the move.
I've been trying to reach him to mod mine as of late, but no luck still :(
-
Michael, you'll be happy to know that I have a working AES now. KPJ sent me a different motherboard altogether since the one I sent him couldn't be made to work at all. He did the RGB bypass mod or whatever is needed to get proper RGB out of the thing as well as added the Universe BIOS to it. All that and a new (to me) AES motherboard for $125. That's really not bad at all. It glitches less than my old one as well (it had graphical glitches on the Fatal Fury 2 character select screen as well at certain points in other games). The motherboard is also far less sloppy than the old one (no daughter board for the composite video). Sure, it has a Toshiba 68000 instead of a Motorola, but who cares? I have a Toshiba TV, so they get along with each other and be best friends. Apparently this one needed a slightly different AC adapter, and he sent that as well.
-
if you are still having no luck getting your pc engine's modified and live in UK you could try these places.. Again they are expensive but you should have no problems.. *fingers crossed*
These guys do it for £44.99 but you will need to email to confirm it.
http://www.videogameimports.com/hw_index.htm
Raven games do it for 34.99.. only thing i dont like is having the lead permanently attached to the machine.. :(
http://www.ravengames.co.uk/
-
if you are still having no luck getting your pc engine's modified and live in UK you could try these places.. Again they are expensive but you should have no problems.. *fingers crossed*
These guys do it for £44.99 but you will need to email to confirm it.
http://www.videogameimports.com/hw_index.htm
Raven games do it for 34.99.. only thing i dont like is having the lead permanently attached to the machine.. :(
http://www.ravengames.co.uk/
I'm in the U.S so that wouldn't help me at all.
I was thinking of trying oldschoolgamer but he just offers a region mod.
No s-video etc ](*,)