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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: guyjin on March 16, 2007, 01:07:44 AM
Title: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: guyjin on March 16, 2007, 01:07:44 AM
http://hudsonent.com/feature.php?feature_id=109
:dance:
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: nodtveidt on March 16, 2007, 01:46:32 AM
Interesting article, but even more interesting that it would be on hudsonent and be so full of errors... :(
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Spector on March 16, 2007, 01:55:54 AM
Was the PC Engine's sound chip really only "marginally better" than the NES' 3 channel mono? I think there is a bigger gap between the two than they suggest.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Bonknuts on March 16, 2007, 03:43:30 AM
Yeah, it was a little more than marginally better. Each of the six channels had a PCM waveform sample instrument playback bank (basically waveform playback) among other things it can do (direct feed sampling on all channels (digitizes sound effects up to 48kHz and higher), white noise on channel 6, frequency modulation of channel 2) instead of just a square or triangle tone like in the NES.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Necromancer on March 16, 2007, 05:04:23 AM
I'd have to agree that the sound chip was more than 'somewhat better' when compared to the Famicom, but to snerds it is complete junk that can never compare to the awesome power of the SPC700. At least the article is correct regarding HuCards - they're sexy. :)
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Tatsujin on March 16, 2007, 06:05:14 AM
the 20 anniversary is set on 30th October 2007. everybody knows.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Black Tiger on March 16, 2007, 01:21:14 PM
I'd have to agree that the sound chip was more than 'somewhat better' when compared to the Famicom, but to snerds it is complete junk that can never compare to the awesome power of the SPC700. At least the article is correct regarding HuCards - they're sexy. :)
Technical specs and what can actually be done with something are two different things.
Technically, the Neo Geo, Genesis and Sega-CD have the same cpu. But Sega-CD games don't tend to blast process as well as the Neo Geo.
However much it may or may not defy the Turbo sound chip's similarity to the NES sound chip, some of the "iffiest"(on a technical level) Turbo chip music sounds comparable to some of the better NES music and good Turbo chip music rocks in its own unique way. 8)
Interesting article, but even more interesting that it would be on hudsonent and be so full of errors... :(
Actually, Hudson Entertainment's site is earning a reputation for ignorance of Hudson's history. :wink:
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Necromancer on March 16, 2007, 06:28:57 PM
:? Huh, Black_Tiger - are we disagreeing somewhere? I was agreeing with Bonknuts's assessment of the PC Engine's sound chip and added that a snerd likely wouldn't appreciate the difference since it wouldn't compare to Sony's chip. I don't hear much similarity between the the PCE and a Famicom, other than they both sound like 'video games'. Maybe I've had too much gin tonight and am not reading your post correctly; nah, there's no such thing as too much gin. :dance:
sarcasm --> Genesis / Sega-CD and NeoGeo processors have nothing in common. One is 16-bit and the other is 24-bit. <-- sarcasm :)
Does anybody know how many NES games (as a rough percentage) used a cartridge based chip to improve sound? I know that many games had chips built in for improvements, but I'm unsure what they were most commonly used for.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ccovell on March 17, 2007, 01:37:38 AM
The NES has 5 channels: two square-wave, one triangle-wave, one noise and one digital/Delta modulation channel. The digital channel can play 6-bit digital waveforms either through direct DDA (same as the direct mode on the PCE), or delta modulation, which is done automatically through hardware DMA.
I'd say the PCE's sound is PSG like the NES, but is much more customizable. A good musician that changes the waveforms often in one piece of music, and who uses the FM capability well, can make the PCE sound just fantastic and unique. (Though I do happen to think that the WSG (wave sound generator) implemented in Konami's SCC cartridge on the MSX sounds a lot better than the PCE's. I think it has more channels (and better bass, IMO) than the PCE hardware.)
Does anybody know how many NES games (as a rough percentage) used a cartridge based chip to improve sound?
Zero.
Unless you're counting Famicom games, where a few dozen (maybe??) games use an extra sound chip. Add to that all the FDS games that make use of the extra sound channel, and the number increases. It's still a small fraction of the total Famicom games, I reckon.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: nat on March 17, 2007, 06:20:23 AM
Last night I was playing Air Zonk and thinking about this article.
There is no f*cking way the NES could produce anything remotely similar to the music in Air Zonk. To say one is only "marginally" better than the other is ridiculous.
It's all in how the composer chooses/is able to utilize the sound hardware at hand. There are some instances with (early) Turbo/PCE games where the composer(s) obviously had inadequate knowledge to utilize the Turbo's sound hardware to it's full potential. The result were tunes that sounded similar to what you might hear on an NES. But these were not indicative of what the hardware was capable of.
I think that properly composed "chip" music on our beloved system, music that takes advantage of the hardware's full potential, is not only far superior to anything the NES can offer (which is not to say I don't like NES music) but is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well. That last part may just be my opinion, but I don't think you can deny that good Turbo music sounds fuller and warmer than what the Genesis is capable of. That said, there are still some Genesis soundtracks I really enjoy.
I guess I just don't see how anyone could equate the Turbo's sound capabilities with those of the NES.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: nat
[The PC Engine's sound quality] is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well.
That is definitely opinion. I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES. But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins. Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:
And although the Genesis is known for its scratchy voices, it could do voices better than the PCE as well from all the examples I've heard. I just think that more games for the Genesis used crappy samples than ones with good samples. I'm sure the same is true for the PCE, but even the best PCE voices I've heard sound pretty scratchy. I can post some good Genesis voice examples if you'd like (from real hardware, not an emulator).
If you have examples of PCE with technically superior sound quality to all of those titles above, please point me to it as I'd love to hear it.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: nat on March 17, 2007, 10:24:27 AM
[The PC Engine's sound quality] is better than anything I've heard on the Genesis as well.
That is definitely opinion.
As I said. :) How'd I know I'd get a reply from you after that comment? Keep in mind, my exposure to Genesis games/music is far more limited compared to what I know of the Turbo/PCE. Hence the "I've heard" part.
Quote
I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES. But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins. Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:
Thanks, I will... Never played any of those myself except maybe Streets of Rage years ago. Got any links to ripped OSTs?
I suppose my intent here was not to debate Turbo vs. Genesis sound technicalities, but rather point out that the PCE/Turbo was at least on par with it's contemporary, the Genesis. I don't think someone would describe the Genesis sound chip as "marginally" better than the NES, at least I know *I* wouldn't. We could debate who haz teh b3tt3r muzac, NEC or SEGA, all day but that's not the issue here and is largely a matter of opinion anyway.
The issue here is whomever wrote that article was either on crack at the time of writing that comment, or picked up a copy of "Wonderboy in Monsterland" an decided that was Hu6280 sound at it's finest.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on March 17, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
That is definitely opinion. I agree that it can sound smoother with its nice humming-type of instruments, but then again so can the NES. But as far as straight technical sound superiority, I'd have to say that the Genesis wins. Based on sound quality alone (not musical composition), listen to the following examples on the Genesis which the PCE could not do as well:
And although the Genesis is known for its scratchy voices, it could do voices better than the PCE as well from all the examples I've heard. I just think that more games for the Genesis used crappy samples than ones with good samples. I'm sure the same is true for the PCE, but even the best PCE voices I've heard sound pretty scratchy. I can post some good Genesis voice examples if you'd like (from real hardware, not an emulator).
If you have examples of PCE with technically superior sound quality to all of those titles above, please point me to it as I'd love to hear it.
It would be interesting if those games mentioned above did appear on the pc engine too as you'll then be able to make a direct comparison..
I know from hearing the originals of some megadrive/genesis games sounded awesome but this don't mean that the pce's sound chip is no slouch either.
You could however make some direct comparisions with the following:
PCE: Devil Crash/crush Genesis: Dragon's Fury PCE: Tatsujin Genisis:Truxton PCE: Street Fighter II Genesis: Super Street Fighter II PCE: Kyuukyu Tiger Genesis:Kyuukyu Tiger PCE: Aero Blaster Genesis:Aero Blaster PCE: Populous Genesis:Populous
Yes I'll agree some Genesis version's sound better than the pc engine but then there are some pc engine games that sound better than the genesis ones which I don't think is the fault of the hardware but more of the musician programmers.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: runinruder on March 17, 2007, 11:55:47 AM
Yeah, Air Zonk is way out of the NES's league. I also like to reference Psychosis' soundtrack for audio that is of a caliber beyond the NES's capabilities. Heck, even "elderly" cards like Dungeon Explorer and Alien Crush have music that simply couldn't be replicated by the NES.
Comparing the Turbo with the Genesis is a trickier situation. The Genesis seemed to be capable of doing more with its tunes. Take the track from Shinobi III's misty maze stage (I think it's called "Izayoi" in the sound test); I've never heard drum sounds like that from a TurboChip. And while HuCards were definitely capable of delivering strong rock numbers, I've never heard anything as powerful as Lightening Force's riffs from them. Heck, LF's explosive sound effects topped those in many strong Turbo CD shooters. On the other hand, I cringe when I think of Air Zonk's sweet tunes being marred by scratchy Sega sound.
But when it comes right down to it, I guess the best way to compare is simply to line up games that were released for both systems. There will always be "experts" who claim the NES could do "this," the Turbo could do "that," and the Genesis could do "the other thing."
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 11:56:17 AM
I completely agree with Diji.K and his counter-comparisons are pretty much right on (meaning the Turbo version sounds better). I'd say Street Fighter 2 is a draw unless you start counting voices (where the Genesis completely loses). But I'd have to listen to them both again.
Nat, I'll be happy to post some MP3s and whatnot for ya. I'll do it in this thread tonight. Stay tuned...
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 12:40:25 PM
Awww, PC-Engine turned 20! Happy birthday!
And I don't really care which chip is more powerful in the 2A03 vs. HuC6280. They both have some great music, and both have sonic characteristics I adore.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Black Tiger on March 17, 2007, 12:59:36 PM
:? Huh, Black_Tiger - are we disagreeing somewhere? I was agreeing with Bonknuts's assessment of the PC Engine's sound chip and added that a snerd likely wouldn't appreciate the difference since it wouldn't compare to Sony's chip. I don't hear much similarity between the the PCE and a Famicom, other than they both sound like 'video games'. Maybe I've had too much gin tonight and am not reading your post correctly; nah, there's no such thing as too much gin. :dance:
I agree with you. My point is that I'm no tech spec expert, but if an expert were to tell me that the sound chips in the NES and TG-16 are identical, it wouldn't matter, since they both have unique sounds and are both capable of beutifiul music.
Even the stuff that Turbo haters say is 'basically NES music' is more of a generational leap over NES music than 16-bit graphics are over 8-bit.
As for Turbo vs Genesis sound/music, you can't ever make any fair direct comparison because even if the same composer does both soundtracks, they aren't going to be equally skilled at 'programming' both. And even if a music programming automaton was someday created that was as skilled as is inhumanly possible at programming both, it'd still be a matter of personal taste since both have different types of sound and strengths and weaknesses.
Many PC Engine CD games have digitized samples that sounded perfect to me back in the day. Like Ys IV, which has at least one sampled effect per boss battle. The Genesis may be able to reproduce samples just as good, but I don't think it gets much discernably better to the human ear in the middle of a real game.
In my personal playing experience, it seems that Genesis generated music has a greater potential to be misused, particularly on the fm side. I've heard so many great Genesis soundtracks that were marred by the odd misued instrument(s) or were unbalanced.
I think that the Genesis SFII soundtrack in many places sounds better than any version, including the arcade, but is such a mixed bag that overall it may be least good of the 3 16-bit consoles. Least good is still good though.
Unfortunately, since the PCE CD format took off before developers really started to maximize HuCard potential, HuCards and therefore PSG/chip music was never a huge priority for developers(unlike Genesis and SNES carts). Most games with lofty aspirations were put on CD since it was less limited, cheaper and by the Super CD era, more popular.
Still, potential is only potential and we only have real actual games to play. There is probably some Turbo/PCE 'chip' music to rival the games Joe listed, but I'm not overly familiar with those games or PCE HuCards in general. But there are also some CD games with special system generated music(even though its not a great example of Turbo/PCE chip music, Dragon Slayer was an alternate PSG soundtrack).
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Bonknuts on March 17, 2007, 01:19:01 PM
I still perfer some original musics on the NES over remakes - Ninja Gaiden for PCE and SNES come to mind.
Btw, someone is working on a PCE music tracker.
Hmm.. 20 years old - I wonder what we will see in celebration of this: never before seen prototypes, new games, demos, etc. I can't wait :D
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Black Tiger on March 17, 2007, 01:41:31 PM
I still perfer some original musics on the NES over remakes - Ninja Gaiden for PCE and SNES come to mind.
Actually, while the NES version of that game's intro is great (and has a PHENOMENAL Minibosses cover) I must say I love the Sega Master System, you can't help but feel awesomeness when the sombre breakbeat kicks in after the Oriental melody and then when the last survivor is talking to him it kicks into the fast heroic ninja theme. I'll have to upload it to YouTube, it's amazing.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 03:07:18 PM
OK, so my video capture software is crap, so you'll just have to settle for an MP3 of the SMS Ninja Gaiden Intro:
http://savefile.com/files/561094 <This MP3 was WAV logged with KEGA Fusion 3.4, and encoded to MP3 at 320kbps, 48,000khz.
The cool thing about the SMS version is that the composer is "FUMI", a quick search on Google reveals that this is none other than Fumie Kumatani, one of my favorite Sega musicians!
Not only does she make some excellent music (and own a Nord Lead 3 and a KORG Triton), she's also smokin' hot! : (http://www.mobygames.com/images/portraits/large/1105922495-00.jpg)
Rawr. ^__^
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 03:11:54 PM
OK here we go. First off I must stress that I AM NOT trying to say that the Genesis mops the floor with the Turbo or that I'd rather listen to Genesis music any day instead of Turbo/PCE HuCard music. What I am trying to show is that for computer generated music, the Genesis is technically more impressive at what it can do. Like Black_Tiger pointed out, it can be misused. How often have you heard a Genesis game that has music that sounds like a broken kazoo? Too often, I'm afraid.
So with the following MP3s I am trying to show what I think that a TurboGrafx/PC Engine HuCard would have an incredibly tough if not impossible time equaling in sound quality. The following are mainly short snippets of various songs from the sound tests demonstrating sound quality and not music composition quality (though many of the tunes are quite good). Some games have a few examples that cross-fade into each other, and there is one second of silence between games. Recorded in (((STEREO))) from a real Genesis (mine). Try to imagine the PCE playing these musics (is that grammatically correct)? http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/GenesisMusicExamples.mp3 - 8:48 - 12.21 MB
Here's the game list: 0:00 - Gauntlet IV - 4 songs 1:50 - Mega Turrican - 2 songs 3:00 - Midnight Resistance - 1 song 3:40 - Global Gladiators - 1 "song" 4:08 - Shinobi III - 1 song 4:30 - Thunder Force IV/Lightening Force - 3 songs 5:57 - Streets of Rage 1 - 2 songs - I know you said you've heard this, but it's here to demonstrate one thing that the PC Engine definitely cannot do... BASS. Absolutely requires some great full range speakers/headphones that are capable of excellent bass. 7:08 - Zero Wing - 1 song 7:33 - Panorama Cotton - 1 song 8:16 - Castlevania Bloodlines - 1 song
Just for fun I did a quick voice MP3 as well just to show that the Genesis isn't a scratchy disaster when it comes to speech like snerds say it is. The following MP3 is in mono from various games I own that I could remember off of the top of my head as having good quality voices. Once again, recorded from my real Genesis 1 (launch unit). Wow! http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/GenesisVoiceExamples.mp3 - 49 freakin' seconds long. - 609 freakin' K's.
Enjoy.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: esteban on March 17, 2007, 03:28:12 PM
This is a completely subjective topic, and I usually have fun diving in, but I'm too tired at the moment (for the record, I love chip tunes on all the systems mentioned).
I do have a question for the technical gurus: Has anyone mapped out the relationship between console and arcade music? I mean, consoles were on one path historically and arcade machines were on another... I'm interested in reading / finding out more about video game music from an arcade-centric perspective.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 03:34:25 PM
Arcade music can be great (like Super Hang-On), but arcades can have special sound hardware customized for each game. Sometimes they just use a standard board, but that board usually has kick ass sound quality even though you can barely hear it over all of the other games and dweebs around you.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 03:35:46 PM
Joe why didn't you use any samples from Pulseman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulseman)? That game has some great voices.
Here they are:
http://savefile.com/files/561142 <This MP3 was WAV logged with KEGA Fusion 3.4, and encoded to MP3 at 320kbps, 48,000khz.
BTW Pulseman's story is freaky, the hero's father had sex with a computer, and that's how he was created! Don't believe me? Read the bios: http://volteccer.atomic-fire.com/info.shtml
And for the record, I'm a "SNerd". :P
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 03:37:39 PM
Because I don't have Pulseman, and I'd rather record from real hardware. If I had it, I'd likely have used it.
By the way, your links don't lead me to any downloadable files. EDIT: Nevermind.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: TR0N on March 17, 2007, 03:38:33 PM
Happy B-day to one of my favorite cult systems.
Now if only G4 would only do a icons special on it :roll:
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 03:41:09 PM
OK I listened to Pulseman's voices and they are kind of scratchy/warbly. Still good, though.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 03:53:39 PM
Yeah, if I had a talking computer, I'd want it to sound like Rice from Pulseman. "SPARK BALL!"
In your Genesis clip, what game said "You've found a secret bonus point"?
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 03:59:05 PM
That was Dynamite Headdy.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 04:02:44 PM
Thank you! I just looked it up, I'm going to have to find this game, I didn't know it was made by Treasure, I assumed it was just another "licensable character" game made by Probe or some sort.
BTW, do you guys think Hudson doing anything special for the PCE's B-Day, something involving the Wii perhaps?
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ccovell on March 17, 2007, 04:03:28 PM
I'll have to agree with Joe Redifer here, in that technically the Genesis/MD FM chip is superior, in that the waveforms that can be generated regularly are more complex than the PCE. Thus the complexity scale goes something like this:
LCD Games < Sega Master System < NES < PCE < Genesis < SNES.
Of course the less talent a musician has, the more basic the music will sound. Bad SNES music sounds like the most awkward of MIDI songs; bad Genesis music sounds like croaking frogs; bad PCE music sounds like beeping NES music; bad NES music sounds like a game from 1979; bad SMS music sounds like beeping digital watches, etc.
Yeah, one thing the PCE is definitely lacking is bass. I think the waveforms just can't be cycled low enough to maintain fidelity and a good bass sound. The Genesis has plenty of FM controls, so some really low, complex bass-heavy sine waves can be generated.
That said, I'd rather listen to the music from my favourite PCE games, like most of us, but we must admit it has to do with our memories from the game, right? :-)
p.s. Arcade music made a similar progression, going from analogue sound generators, to simple PSG, to WSG (PCE-like), then to FM and PCM samples.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 04:07:52 PM
Part of the bass thing I think is that PCE can't do sine waves, and FM EXCELS at doing sine waves. And as any DNB/Hip-Hop head will tell you, SINE=BASS.
Correct me if I'm wrong though.
EDIT: Sorry ccovell, didn't see that part in your post.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on March 17, 2007, 04:20:30 PM
Well, I'm correcting you, as I'm a DnB/Hip Hop head, & I've heard nothing of the sort. But, then again, believe it or not, I don't pay much attention to those things, I just enjoy listening to & making music, simply. :D
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 04:21:08 PM
Poor SMS... it only has the ability to sound better than LCD games and my watch when I press a button. :( It is true that the NES sounds better than the SMS, but there are many SMS tunes that I'd rather listen to (tons of great NES ones as well, obviously). I am not a big fan of the way the FM expansion pack for the SMS sounds. It has the capability of being complex, but it never has been. Instead we get super-quiet tunes with really loud drum tracks. And it never has all 9 channels going at once.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on March 17, 2007, 04:25:25 PM
Poor SMS... it only has the ability to sound better than LCD games and my watch when I press a button. :( It is true that the NES sounds better than the SMS, but there are many SMS tunes that I'd rather listen to (tons of great NES ones as well, obviously). I am not a big fan of the way the FM expansion pack for the SMS sounds. It has the capability of being complex, but it never has been. Instead we get super-quiet tunes with really loud drum tracks. And it never has all 9 channels going at once.
There was an expansion pack? I thought the FM for SMS was only in Japan, where SMS consoles also had an YM2612 inside (that was removied for the U.S. release for some odd reason). I didn't know there was an expansion pack though, that's hella cool! ^.^
Maybe the SMS processor is so shit it can't use all 9 voices?
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: nat on March 17, 2007, 05:03:17 PM
Here's the game list: 0:00 - Gauntlet IV - 4 songs 1:50 - Mega Turrican - 2 songs 3:00 - Midnight Resistance - 1 song 3:40 - Global Gladiators - 1 "song" 4:08 - Shinobi III - 1 song 4:30 - Thunder Force IV/Lightening Force - 3 songs 5:57 - Streets of Rage 1 - 2 songs - I know you said you've heard this, but it's here to demonstrate one thing that the PC Engine definitely cannot do... BASS. Absolutely requires some great full range speakers/headphones that are capable of excellent bass. 7:08 - Zero Wing - 1 song 7:33 - Panorama Cotton - 1 song 8:16 - Castlevania Bloodlines - 1 song
Good examples. :clap: I've been "schooled". :) I especially like Mega Turrican and Thunder Force IV. The clip from Global Gladiators is possibly, however, the most obnoxious 28 seconds of audio I've ever listened to. The Shinobi III clip actually didn't impress me too much.
So the Genesis has got some technical shit on the Turbo... Too bad it didn't get put to good use more often. ;)
I'll still take a little Dungeon Explorer, Air Zonk or even Gradius any day.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 05:10:07 PM
When all is said and done, it simply comes down to what you enjoy listening to more. The Genesis could have real bands that teleport into your living room and play full high definition audio from all around you with real instruments, but if the music isn't as good, you're gonna enjoy listening to the Turbo play Legendary Axe 2 recorded on a cassette tape with no noise reduction much more!
Shinobi 3 is hard to judge. I put that one on there for the "clang" type of percussion. The rest of it is rather average. But some people are completely enamored with the soundtrack. I agree about Global Gladiators, that's why I put it on there. :) Makes you want to beat up Tommy Tallarico... actually who doesn't want to do that already?
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Bonknuts on March 17, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
Part of the bass thing I think is that PCE can't do sine waves, and FM EXCELS at doing sine waves. And as any DNB/Hip-Hop head will tell you, SINE=BASS.
Correct me if I'm wrong though.
EDIT: Sorry ccovell, didn't see that part in your post.
Yeah, the PCE can do sine waves. The PCE isn't PSG (pulse sound generation), it's PCM based. Each channel of audio holds a 32 sample voice. I've done a sine wave at 40hz and the bass is low, but the problem is that the sample resolution for each channel is only 5bits so it's not as smooth as FM at lower frequencies.
I'm not too sure on the Genesis, but I believe the PCE is better at playing digitized effects. I can easily play a 5bit res sample in the range of 10hz-100kHz with DDA mode. Your only limited to the size of the stored sample the processing power to drive it.
Anyway, I guess this is getting off-topic.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 17, 2007, 05:15:31 PM
Off topic kicks ass. Is there any way you can post an MP3 with some great PCE voice samples, you know, to celebrate its birthday? Even ones that you record yourself are fine. I'd be happy to host it if you don't have a server, just e-mail me the MP3.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Bonknuts on March 17, 2007, 05:24:58 PM
Will do ;)
( still need to get you that interlaced demo on CD )
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on April 02, 2007, 03:55:40 PM
ok I'll admit the pc engine soundchip is no where near as powerful as the megadrives but that don't mean the pce's sound is slacking in that department!
These are recorded from the real things!!! (and in stereo)!
Naxat Soft's version of Capcom's 1943 KAI Open new1943kaifinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94665-r)
Hudson Soft's Final Soldier, Super Star Soldier and Soldier Blade Open soldierfiinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94662-r)
Namco's Dragon Saber Open dragonsaberfinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94666-r)
Taito's Hana Tahka Daka!? Open longnosefinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94661-r)
I'll try and get a few more game bgm's up if I can try and remember my passwords to the other file anchor accounts >.>
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 02, 2007, 04:38:56 PM
Nice clips, Digi.k. ^_^
Can we start talking about the consoles/computers with AWESOME soundchips now? IE:
Apple IIGS - Yeah it's a computer. A COMPUTER WITH A BULIT-IN ENSONIQ MIRAGE!! :clap: 16 channels, mono channels though, so you're limited to 8 voices in normal mode, demosceners got around this however.
Amiga (any model) - The Paula chip = GLORIOUS PCM! Again 8 channels, but those demosceners can get more from software trickery. This system gets enough glory so I won't whore it too much. Also it had the same sound chip as the CD32 and the CDTV, those had no enhancements so I'm not mentioning them.
SNES - The SPC700 was the first console to feature full 44.1khz PCM, however it must rely on bankswitching to load BIG samples (as confirmed by Yuzo Koshiro in this interview (http://games.kikizo.com/features/yuzo_koshiro_iv_oct05_p2.asp), although he calls it "sample reloading" ) and uses some WEAK-ASS (almost non-existant) filters (It uses a rather shitty 8-step FIR, at LEAST it has an ADSR envelope, otherwise it'd sound MUY shit.) Also it has 8 channels, which I don't ever recall being hacked to make more. (However the Super Pitfall guy asked for some special audio software to compose dynamic music, he might have succeeded in getting some sound channel hacks, I'm not sure though.)
Atari Jaguar - Yeah it was a shit console. But Jerry gets special mention, being the best part of that console. "Jerry" was an AMAZING DSP cooked up by IBM that would still pass for a consumer souncard today, but back then it was AMAZING. Just like the N64, sound channels were limited ONLY by software. However, in games like DOOM, this meant no music (Yak was A GOD to get music out of Tempest 2000). The chip's main musical duties were to playback Amiga MOD files, but being a DSP it could do ANYTHING from sample playback to Genesis-esque FM to even wavetable synthesis like a motherf*cking WALDORF Q+! One wonders if it could do subtractive VA, and it probably could. No one really took advantage of this however.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Keranu on April 02, 2007, 05:20:10 PM
ok I'll admit the pc engine soundchip is no where near as powerful as the megadrives but that don't mean the pce's sound is slacking in that department!
As far as I know, neither one is really more technically powerful than the other, it just depends on your taste. Though that really doesn't make a difference either since I find NES to sound better than say SNES :P .
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ccovell on April 02, 2007, 05:39:08 PM
Kitsunexus: thanks for the info on the AppleIIGS and Jaguar, but some corrections on the others:
The Amiga has only 4 channels: 2 fixed in the left channel and 2 for the right. As far as I know, the SNES' SPC-700 outputs at 32Khz maximum (fixed?). See here for at least one page which confirms it: http://www.alpha-ii.com/Info/snes-spdif.html
p.s. While searching for confirmation on the SPC's output rate, I found out that the once-great SPC is now being put to use providing monophonic sound inside of LED/Fluorescent display panel microcontrollers (http://www.sony.co.jp/~semicon/english/img/sony01/a6808738.pdf). Oh, the humanity!
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 03, 2007, 04:02:28 AM
#-o I knew I messed SOMETHING up! That's what you get doing this from memory. In retrospect, it makes sense, because the MOD file format is 4-channel.
And I thought it said in the official SNES literature that it was a 41khz machine, guess I was wrong. My bad.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on April 03, 2007, 06:41:58 AM
if I were to pick sound chips other than the pce's I would have to go for :
Sega Saturn's sound chip and the old Gravis ultrasound card..
Saturn sound chip basically because the games that I love on this system have awesome chip music.
you can hear some examples from here: dracula X saturn version. Yea I know the saturn version is piss poor compared to the psone version but these are music files.
One of my favourite track from lunar eternal blue:
obviously because of the restrictions of youtube and that the fact I had to compress these the quality is reduced somewhat.
lunar silver star story complete (you wont believe how many mails i get from playstation fanboys telling me to stop misleading ppl and that the version I've uploaded is playstation version and that it don't exist for saturn)
Gravis ultrasound card.. back then when we only had DOS and windows 3.11 we only adlib and the original soundblaster and they were awful and expensive.. well when this card finally appeared.. apart from having some real nasty compatibility issues this card finally gave pc games some real nice warm sounds!! especially if the (yamaha and roland sound cards were out of your price range) and proved that the pc could make gaming music as good as the Amiga imo.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ParanoiaDragon on April 03, 2007, 08:25:45 AM
Ok, that's pretty obvious to me, that it's not the Playstation version, as it doesn't skip when it circles around the boat. But, those PS fanboys actually say it doesn't exist??? They must not know how to use the internet, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to find all the different versions of the Lunar games. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on April 03, 2007, 09:23:12 AM
Ok, that's pretty obvious to me, that it's not the Playstation version, as it doesn't skip when it circles around the boat. But, those PS fanboys actually say it doesn't exist??? They must not know how to use the internet, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to find all the different versions of the Lunar games. Sheesh.
They say that my vids ARE actual playstation ones...
even here on this very vid scroll through the the comments from some member called Masteroftheshadows if you dont believe me...
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Necromancer on April 03, 2007, 10:41:45 AM
They say that my vids ARE actual playstation ones...
even here on this very vid scroll through the the comments from some member called Masteroftheshadows if you dont believe me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpzlBG0qAaQ
That is just hilarious. :lol:
Mr. Ostrich says: I think it must be on a PlayStation because everyone knows that Saturns are grey and PlayStations are white. That video might actually be of a Mac Mini in a Saturn case (spray painted white) and running the PC version of SSS. Don't try to dissuade me, as I've made up my mind and searching the internet for some reality would be a waste of time. Now pardon me, but my head has an urgent meeting with some sand. ](*,)
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 03, 2007, 10:49:09 AM
Saturn sound chip was pretty damn awesome, coupled with Cybersound it was nigh-perfect!
Gravis Ultrasound was cool because at a time when software interpolation was crap, the GUS's hardware interpolation made MOD playback sound like a real Amiga!
ROFL @ The SSS thing, that's hialrious.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on April 04, 2007, 11:09:31 AM
Naxat Soft's version of Capcom's 1943 KAI Open new1943kaifinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94665-r)
Hudson Soft's Final Soldier, Super Star Soldier and Soldier Blade Open soldierfiinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94662-r)
Namco's Dragon Saber Open dragonsaberfinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94666-r)
Taito's Hana Tahka Daka!? Open longnosefinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94661-r)
Back to the pc engine sound.. well here some more music tracks i recorded earlier (and again its from the real stuff no emulation)!! (http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/pcenginecover1.jpg) You know I really hated this soundtrack because it just seemed like worst of the pc engine music chip-scene.. in the way it just sounds sooo tinny and weak.. fast forward a decade I really do appreciate this now.. maybe its what Namco intended it to sound like.. tinny, weak, irritating.. and like a really cheap budget bad 70's slash horror flick as you start off the music matches the the scene and story ie bleak and lonely.. but the last two tracks give you the sense to fight on and live. There's also notes which just sound flat buzzing, or bleeps which to me reminds me of paranormal activity you know?? electricity flowing kinda thing... To get the best out of it you need headphones mostly because of the great stereo seperation which are fantastic on some bits not featured here..
anyway here's some music tracks taken from it: (5 tracks, 6.22 mins, 5.83mb) Open splatter.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94785-r)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/pcenginecover2.jpg) and I just love the music to bomberman 93' just listen to it! do eeet!!! imo the final track on this which is the ending music kinda reminds me of the good ol' amiga days as it sounds like nothing heard on the megadrive, SNES, NES or Mastersystem yup its got a very unique sound..(3 tracks, 4.54 mins, 5.61mb) Open bomberman93final.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94779-r)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/pcenginecover3.jpg) Air Zonk music which i think is done by the same person who handled 1943 kai and coryoon.. (2 tracks, 3.41 mins, 4.22mb) Open airzonkfinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94783-r)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/pcenginecover4.jpg) Detana!! twin bee: just one track and a few sampled voices ^^, Open twinbeefinal.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/94759-r)
I'm hoping all this will persuade a few nay-sayers that the pce sound chip is a great piece of silicone.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: ccovell on April 04, 2007, 02:58:49 PM
I'm hoping all this will persuade a few nay-sayers that the pce sound chip is a great piece of silicone.
You got that right. NSFW (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/446738237_9664473777_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: Digi.k on April 14, 2007, 03:42:29 AM
ah going back to the splatterhouse game this is the arcade tracks..
Open newsplatterhousearcade.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/95850-r)
Comparing the Arcade to the pc engine's.. I can't decide which has the upper hand.. some tracks I think the arcade has better arrangements but there are other tracks I think the pc engine sounds better.
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: esteban on April 14, 2007, 07:13:58 AM
ah going back to the splatterhouse game this is the arcade tracks..
Open newsplatterhousearcade.mp3 (http://fileanchor.com/95850-r)
Comparing the Arcade to the pc engine's.. I can't decide which has the upper hand.. some tracks I think the arcade has better arrangements but there are other tracks I think the pc engine sounds better.
I think the PCE tunes hold up well, though there is a harshness to them that clearly is not in the originals. Personally, I prefer the PCE overall, since the "melodies" are so prominent... unlike the arcade version, which is much more subdued and "restrained."
Don't get me wrong, though, I'm really enjoying these arcade tracks... they are a nice complement to the PCE tunes. :)
Title: Re: Happy Birthday PC Engine!
Post by: nat on April 14, 2007, 07:17:33 AM