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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG/PCE Repair/Mod Discussion => Topic started by: drenco on May 12, 2007, 05:22:53 PM
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Any one got a decent link or instructions for me so i can Mod my Duo-r from composite to a lovely RGB signal,alternativey if anyone can do it for a reasonable price and lives near Luton in the United Kingdom let me no as i really dont like looking at this composite picture, thanks
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http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/duorgb.php
You'll have to build an amp.
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You won't have to build an amp.
Transistors (unsure about the values, I will not find out, ask around or test yourself) on the r, g and b lines are more than enough.
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That's what I do. Interesting effect when the system is powered up. The transistor values are the same ones listed in the amp specs on the page I linked to.
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Interesting effect? What do you mean by that?
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Well, according to that guy's RGB mod page, this works on all US/Japanese PCE systems. I plan on doing this to my TG-CD, but there's a few questions I had, if anyone can help:
-Can RGB out be connected to component in? My logic says no, but I don't know what the difference is.
-Does anyone know how to turn RGB into Chroma/Luma signals so I can use S-video?
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1. Nope. But Joe Redifer knows what additional equipment you need in order to make it possible.
2. Yes, but it requires an encoder. Grahf knows about this. Read this thread.
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Oh, hey! I just found this:
http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGBv4/index.html
My apologies if anyone else found it first, and rest assured I'm not advertising for this guy...but would this work for the Turbo/PCE systems? I can't see any reason why not, unless they put out something other than the "standard resolution" 15kHz horizontal line frequency...
I wonder what the Component/S-Video model goes for!
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Jroks are awesome, buy one man.
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Yep, it should work with Component easily. As for S-video/Composite out the J-Rock or a NeoBitz which is similiar, that is very iffy. You probably have to do a slight mod like Grahf is doing with the CXA chip on his S-video mod. I am not 100% sure, but I think you have to give a little amping up to the RGB comming from the video in the system. The boards use an AD chip much like a CXA for video. If you have component video on your TV then it is a good way to go. Personally I think S-video is good enough with a Duo.
Now a Neo Geo, that is a little different since it is a system that is more of a 32 bit style system almost 4,000 colors onscreen and around 40,000 color palette. Also, SNK tends to put in maximum details into the graphics.
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The Neo Geo has 65,536 colors total and 4096 onscreen at the same time. Though I doubt any game has come close to even putting a 1,000 on at once.
I have an RGB to Component converter which I use. SCART cables in, RCA component out. Much easier to deal with than the JROK which you must make your own connection. The JROK does have pots that may negate the need for an amp for the Turbo RGB, though.
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The Neo Geo has 65,536 colors total and 4096 onscreen at the same time. Though I doubt any game has come close to even putting a 1,000 on at once.
I have an RGB to Component converter which I use. SCART cables in, RCA component out. Much easier to deal with than the JROK which you must make your own connection. The JROK does have pots that may negate the need for an amp for the Turbo RGB, though.
Heh, I was too lazy to look it up before I posted and it has been awhile since I quized myself with specs of the system. Still though, it is the most powerful 2D console out there. I call it overkill in the 16 bit world due to it's power. I think games like KOF97 should be over 1000 colors on screen. It is true that a lot of older titles (some newer like Samurai Shodown 4) were pretty much around 256 to 500 colors or so. I doubt that any Neo Geo games did 4,096 colors though.
BTW, I found out from grahf that you really shouldn't get a J-rock or Neo Bitz for composite/S-video use since the AD724/725 chips in them won't work with the Turbo RGB at all. As for component you will be ok since it is running through a completely different circuit. Also, you need do it with slight modifications like a LM1881 sync seperator. RGB to YUV convertor sounds like a better option though and it is external and can be used for all other systems which is nice. I may just get one of those but SCART cables are pain in the ass to find for older systems these days. I guess I could just have some custom built.
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The neobitz has been confirmed not-working by others on the gamesx forum due to the ad724/725. The (3.1) Jrok should work, but for some reason it doesnt. I dont have one in my possesion to test with, but it seems like it just may be a sync or subcarrier issue. Its a nice product, so hopefully somebody can figure it out.
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Yeah, my Neo Geo AES is running on a NeoBitz with component/composite/S-video board. It is pretty much perfect for this. I think that component shouldn't be a problem with a Neo Bitz but it won't work with the NeoBitz-S model or the S-video/composite won't work with the component video model either.
One guy at the NeoGeo forums got his Turbo Duo and Sega Genesis working with a NeoBitz with the component video only. He made an external switch with different lines that are tweaked. If youre gonna go through that much trouble, you might as well buy and external YUV convertor like Joe Redifer has. You can also find ones that convert RGB into S-video even.
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Still though, [the Neo Geo] is the most powerful 2D console out there.
Perhaps it would be best to say "16-bit" instead of "2D". I consider the Saturn more of a 2D console than a 3D console, and it stomps all over anything the Neo can do. Too bad the Neo Geo couldn't do rotation, I don't even think they even tried it in software. And despite having more colors than the SNES, it never did any transparencies, only mesh. They could have done transparencies if the programmers had tried harder. I don't think anyone ever bothered to push the Neo like programmers pushed the TG-16, Genesis and the SNES. It would have been awesome to see what it could have done.
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The Neo Geo had some pretty frickin' amazing looking games on it, especially later in it's life. Personally I do find Neo Geo games to look nicer than exclusive 2D Saturn games, though it's unfair for me to say that since I haven't been able to explore all of the Saturn's 2D games. I won't deny that 2D Saturn games look awesome and that it can't handle Neo Geo, but I do think the Neo Geo had some amazing looking 2D games. I don't care if Neo Geo games didn't use rotation or transparencies because that's not what made the games look nice, rather it was the extremely well polished hand graphic work that most of the games had.
Joe I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of some of the finest looking 2D Saturn games so I can check them out! :) God I really need a working Saturn! It sucks having this nice boxed Saturn sitting next to me with it not having the power to load games!
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The Saturn only had the 2D cababilities of the Neo Geo as far as RAM goes with the expansion RAM carts. They only did use 1MB for the SNK games and some of the later ones like KOF 97 still had missing animations. Now, there was a lot more color usage with the Sega Saturn much like the PS1. If you look at a lot of games for both of those systems, it seems like the higher res 2D they tried to do would end up with missing details due to lack of RAM. It is funny though that the only games that used the expansion RAM were Neo Geo ports and Capcom ports. The Saturn without the RAM expansions has 50% more 2D power than the PS1 though. Imagine if there wasn't a RAM cart for the Saturn, they would end up slightly better than the PS1 versions of the ports. Also, another factor is sound qualitly. Ever noticed how the voice and sound effects had less sound quality than the Neo Geo versions of the ports? That was the lack RAM in the sound compared to the Neo Geo even the Neo Geo CD.
It is a matter of what it is you want to do with the system. The Neo Geo did have rotation/scaling effects, but they never really used them that much since they didn't need to with sidescrollers and 1on1 fighters. I will admit that games like Guardian Heroes for the Saturn has amazing 2D usage but even I see some flaws in the lack of detail in the BG. It does have good color usage and the scaling/rotation effects were really a good touch to the game. Still, you can see where the lack RAM takes place.
I think that SNK pushed the Neo Geo as far as it could go in terms of color, detail, animation (sprite usage at 380). There were a few games that used scaling such as Last Blade, Samurai Shodown and Art of Fighting series. Check out games like Blazing Star, freaking amazing frame usage that any 32 bit CD console could never ever attempt to do. The Neo Geo didn't have 16.7 million colors and a 32 bit processor, but it did what it could do with what it had. The same goes for the Saturn (although I wished they used the RAM cart on more games) and the PS1. I like all the systems, and they all have their different ways of doing things.
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You're comparing the fact that the Saturn is a CD system and the Neo Geo a cartridge based system. Sure, the NG-CD had tons of RAM, but levels often took 2 to 4 days to load. The NG-CD wasn't meant for the mainstream audience (neither was the Neo Geo itself). The Saturn was, and they knew that having load times lasting 2 to 4 days per level would be instant suicide. I agree, though, that the 4 MB RAM cart should have been used more often.
Here's the thing, though. Let's pretend both the Saturn and the Neo Geo are both cartridge systems. In a way, they are. What if Saturn games came on 100+ megaBIT cartridges? Now the media odds are even, and the Saturn blows away the Neo Geo with more colors, far, far better scaling and also the ability to do rotation (the Neo Geo could not do this). It could do transparency if needed and had way more sprite power and speed. Saturn wins.
Check out games like Blazing Star, freaking amazing frame usage that any 32 bit CD console could never ever attempt to do.
This sentence does not make any sense to me. Could you please explain? What do you mean by amazing "frame usage"? Whatever it did, I'm sure the Saturn could do it. Probably even the Genesis as well, though with a ton less color. Note: The Sega CD even had more capability than the NG's scaling. The NG could scale in and out at a higher frame rate, but the Sega CD could also rotate and do perspective. The Neo Geo could simply not do a game like Batman Returns or Soul Star.
I think that SNK pushed the Neo Geo as far as it could go in terms of color, detail, animation (sprite usage at 380).
I've seen the Neo Geo flicker (in Blazing Star or one of those games). Since the Neo Geo uses ONLY sprites and no backgrounds, some of the screen would disappear during heavy explosions, etc. However I still think the Neo Geo was capable of far more. There was no real competition between developers on the console, so they didn't have to try very hard other than to get the highest megaBIT count. They could have pushed that console to do crazy amazing things. Sure, some of the artwork is great, but that's the artist's skill, not the console's.
Joe I would appreciate it if you could give me a list of some of the finest looking 2D Saturn games so I can check them out!
OK. First of all keep in mind that these are based on graphics alone and you may or may not like the gameplay (which has nothing to do with system capabilities). For good 2D, check out:
Astal - Just about everything in this game is amazing 2D.
Darius Gaiden - Pretty much the only Darius game worth playing.
Galactic Attack - A great overhead shooter, and another Taito game that's actually worth playing.
Magic Knight Rayearth - Cool RPG with lots of detail and color.
MegaMan X4 - The Neo Geo could probably pull this off.
Night Warriors - Better than Darkstalkers, doesn't need a RAM cart.
Shinobi Legions - Gets a bad rap, but it is hilariously cheesy (you'd love it), plays great and has awesome 2D.
Street Fighter Alpha 2 - Pretty sweet!
Japanese only:
Battle Garegga - Great overhead shooter with lots of crap on the screen.
Cotton 2 - If you thought the Turbo version was too hard, well then this game is for you because it is easy!
Detana Twinbee Yahho-! Deluxe Pack - Yeah. Lots of color and cool stuff.
Gale Racer - This is a "3D" racing game, but every single thing here is sprites, not polygons.
Jikkyou Osyaberi Parodius - My favorite Parodius by far.
Keio Yugekitai - Not the most impressive effort on the console, but certainly not bad!
Princess Crown - This game is supposed to be rare, but it seems common. I paid $0 for mine brand new!
Sengoku Blade - Side scrolling shooter with a billion bullets and many layers of scrolling. Easy.
Silhouette Mirage - Crappy game with many impressive 2D effects.
Soukyugurentai - Great overhead shooter. Anything by EA has to be good!
Street Fighter Zero 3 - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Weird artwork but great 2D.
Vampire Savior - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Not as fun as Night Warriors, but really close.
X-Men vs Street Fighter - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Huge characters jumping all over the place in multiple levels (smash down to the sewers, etc). No flicker or slow down. Great game god damn it! Probably one of my favorite fighters ever.
I didn't list Guardian Heroes because #1 the graphics are horribly blocky and #2 I haven't played it in forever.
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What I said for Blazing Star with the frame usage, it is that most of the background graphics in some stages have FMV like frames. This is of course without MPEG usage of any sort. Also, look at the intro of the game. It is pretty amazing without having to use MPEG. This is why the Neo Geo CD couldn't do a port, even 7MB wasn't enough to do all this. It would have had to load maybe 2-3 times or couldn't do it period in Stage 2 for example (Stage with constuction looking bars in the BG). Also, the flickering with explosions was on older games. I just got done playing Blazing Star, Pulstar, even Last Resort and I had no flickering problems with explosions.
Ahh yes, what if the saturn was cart, what if the saturn had a lot more RAM? It just didn't. That was a difference where the Neo Geo had some advantages over the Saturn, but also the Saturn had advantages over the Neo Geo due to its own capabilities. Heres the thing: When the Saturn tries to do a Neo Geo game it isn't up to the same level. Now, with a 4 Meg RAM cart it would be the same almost (minus sound qaulity and possible speed issues due to external RAM). They are just different. It is a matter of preference of games. Transparencies, scaling are just a matter of effects added to enhance games. Just like the SNES Mode 7 effects. The Neo Geo was built in 1990. The SNES was a year later.
It still gave the Saturn a fight with 1 on 1 fighters definately. That was just what type of games the Neo Geo did. The CPS2 system basically had the same capabilites as the Neo Geo. The Neo Geo had better detail in the games and the color specs at 4096 are exactly the same, but they used it more. Also, the CPS2 ran 25% faster with the same processor type (Motorola 68000) and a Z-80 for sound on both as well. The CPS2 didn't really utilize its full potential until games like Marvel vs Capcom. So we will never know if the Saturn could handle that game completely unless we get some hardcore tech guys to tell.
Yes, here are some flaws of the Neo Geo compared to the Saturn with half the mhz minus 1mhz of processing speed and only 320x240 res instead of 640x480 support. Yes, the Saturn has virtually unlimited sprites. If the Saturn used the 4 Meg RAM cart to its full potential, then it would have been able to do more of what the Neo Geo did. Maybe even Blazing Star, but they never did this. There still would have been half the sample quality in the voice and sound effects. Now, there are definitely many games the Neo Geo could have not done that the Saturn did as well.
So this is why I think (in my preference of games), that the Neo Geo is the best 2D system. I just like old school high end 2D. This is why I like mostly 16 bit 2D consoles. The Saturn still was marketed as a 3D system overall. So to begin with when I meant Neo Geo being the best 2D system, I meant it in a sense of 2D only.
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Joe you keep mentioning all of these hardware specs and features, especially rotation. I think me and SNKNostalgia both made it clear that we don't think Neo Geo games look good so much because of the hardware, but from the art itself. Technical effects are cool and all, but in my opinion it's the art that really sells the graphical package.
Astal - Just about everything in this game is amazing 2D.
Darius Gaiden - Pretty much the only Darius game worth playing.
Galactic Attack - A great overhead shooter, and another Taito game that's actually worth playing.
Magic Knight Rayearth - Cool RPG with lots of detail and color.
MegaMan X4 - The Neo Geo could probably pull this off.
Night Warriors - Better than Darkstalkers, doesn't need a RAM cart.
Shinobi Legions - Gets a bad rap, but it is hilariously cheesy (you'd love it), plays great and has awesome 2D.
Street Fighter Alpha 2 - Pretty sweet!
Haha, I've played nearly every one of these games actually. I don't think I've played Galactic Attack, Megaman X4, or Magic Knight Rayearth, but I very well may be wrong since I've played a bunch of pirated Saturn games once. Astal looks amazing, especially considering it was one of the earliest games for the system and is definitely a really good game that shows 2D in an artistic way. And yes, Shinobi Legions is a frickin' sweet game! I hate how people assume a game automatically sucks if it uses real people as characters.
Japanese only:
Battle Garegga - Great overhead shooter with lots of crap on the screen.
Cotton 2 - If you thought the Turbo version was too hard, well then this game is for you because it is easy!
Detana Twinbee Yahho-! Deluxe Pack - Yeah. Lots of color and cool stuff.
Gale Racer - This is a "3D" racing game, but every single thing here is sprites, not polygons.
Jikkyou Osyaberi Parodius - My favorite Parodius by far.
Keio Yugekitai - Not the most impressive effort on the console, but certainly not bad!
Princess Crown - This game is supposed to be rare, but it seems common. I paid $0 for mine brand new!
Sengoku Blade - Side scrolling shooter with a billion bullets and many layers of scrolling. Easy.
Silhouette Mirage - Crappy game with many impressive 2D effects.
Soukyugurentai - Great overhead shooter. Anything by EA has to be good!
Street Fighter Zero 3 - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Weird artwork but great 2D.
Vampire Savior - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Not as fun as Night Warriors, but really close.
X-Men vs Street Fighter - Requires the 4MB RAM cart. Huge characters jumping all over the place in multiple levels (smash down to the sewers, etc). No flicker or slow down. Great game god damn it! Probably one of my favorite fighters ever.
I've played a few of these games, including all the CPS2 games (I was hoping you wouldn't include these since they aren't exclusives and I don't think they're anything the Neo Geo couldn't handle). I've played a little bit of Cotton 2 and it had some swell graphics!
X-Men vs Street Fighter and Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter are my favorite of the Marvel vs Capcom series. They're fun to mess around with, but I don't take them as seriously as I do for other fighting games (I guess because they're not supposed to be!). I think the games after these two just started to get less fun by making them crazier. X-Men Children of the Atom was ok, but I didn't like the characters so much and it felt too slow for a game that's supposed to be hyper.
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Keranu, I am talking specifically about raw system capabilities, which makes your "I like the artwork the best" point completely invalid. But just know that people who like less-capable systems usually say things like that. They HAVE to.
The Neo Geo games on the Saturn are shitty emulations (yes, emulations) done by SNK themselves, not made for the ground up on the system by someone who really knew the hardware. Also, the Saturn has much more RAM than the Neo Geo in all areas. It's just that the Neo Geo can load anything it needs instantaneously from the cart... and that includes sound. The Saturn had cartridge capability and could even run games from it had the developers chosen to do so. If they had and the size of the carts were similar to the Neo Geo, there would have been no issues with compressed sound effects that were in some of the fighting games. The Saturn's sound hardware is FAR better than the Neo Geo's, even when you don't count redbook audio from the CD. The 3 games you mention, Blazing Star Pulstar and Last Resort... it was one of them where I saw an explosion cause flicker. I never saw it in an old game because old games didn't put much on screen. What you speak of with "frame usage" has been done on many systems without FMV. The background of whatever level that is with the scrolling frames is probably only 6 to 10 different frames, all repeated over and over again. Sonic 3D Blast for the Genesis has full-screen FMV built into the cartridge. Updating the frames of the background wasn't a new trick... the entire game of Golden Axe for the SMS was played like that (the game had no sprites at all) and the same with SMS Space Harrier. The only exception is that the Neo Geo does not have a graphical background and must use sprites.
SNKNostalgia, you don't know your hardware very well. You say the Neo Geo has a resolution of 320x240. It does not, it's 304x224 (less than the Genesis). You say the Neo Geo had scaling and rotation features. Nope... just scaling. You also say that the Neo Geo didn't use scaling very much. In fact there are very few NG games I have seen which don't use it in some way.
Play just about any game I mentioned in my list above except for the fighting games as Keranu mentioned. As you are playing them, ask yourself if you've seen the Neo Geo do anything like it. Then ask yourself if you think the Neo Geo could do it. The answer will be "f*ck noooo!!!" You can't walk behind waterfalls in the Neo Geo unless is is ugly mesh like the Genesis. You can walk behind them on the Saturn because it uses transparencies. Which artwork is better? I'll take the transparencies, I don't care what Keranu says (though he'll likely come up with an argument on why mesh looks better). Sorry Keranu, mesh looks worse even over RF. Anyway, this is about system capabilities, not what looks best through Keranu's RF connection on his 1978 Zenith TV. Also the Neo Geo couldn't do the segmented bosses of Cotton 2 as well because it didn't have rotation and couldn't move the limbs as smoothly. The Neo Geo version of the same boss would be noticeably more choppy and would require more memory to do the same thing since it would need a sprite for each position of the segment's location/rotation.
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I think he actually told me once his Zenith was one of the higher-tech 1980 models.
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OK, now your finding minimal flaws like 304x224 instead of 320x240. You know what I mean man, jeeezz. Slow down. BTW it can do 320x240 with 8px borders on each side. Also, the Neo Geo has 3 planes of graphics, so this thing with the sprites instead of it being BG is not making sense to me here. The system can do as much paralaxing as it needs and a lot of detail with no moving graphics.
Rotation, you got me. It doesn't mean the Neo Geo couldn't do it with the CPU speed and the fact that it was fast enough to almost run without work ram due to its multi-chip set to handle fast access to the carts RAM. Also, it uses a tile sprite system, so there you go. Can it actually do the rotation effects in the way it has be done? No, but it could pull it off easily. Ask some tech guys on the Neo Geo forums or guys that actually mess with deleloper kits.
Read again on Blazing Star, the Saturn would have had to do ridicously often loading to get through one stage like that. Trust me there is more BIG frames throughout the stage, it takes a lot of memory to do that. Yep it is cartridge that is one of the advantages of that use.
As for the scaling effects, it does it primarly in games like Riding Hereo, Neo Drift, AOF 1-3, both Last Blade games, Double Dragon, Samurai Shodown 1 up to 5. I am not speaking of minor scaling effects you see in Ninja Commando and the guys flying at you when blown up on Metal Slug. This is funny, did you know the Neo Geo uses a fake scaling effect with its fast Ram access and tile sprite usage? It isn't actually in the chip set. Now I will admit, if it did rotation then it wouldn't be 100% smooth, but it will stil be as good as the scaling. I know what your likely going to say on this; "But it doesn't have it then". OK fine.
SNK has been known to do really good ports on the 32 bit consoles. Look at the SNK games for the PS1. When you look at the specs of the PS1 and compare it to the Neo Geo, they did what is pretty much possible. SNK wanted to get their games as close to the Neo Geo as they could. They wanted to make more money since more people owned these systems. The same goes for the Saturn, yet it did it better than the ps1. It wasn't 2x better but roughly half way there.
Yes the Saturn has better sound chip capabilities, but not enough memory to have all the PCM voice effects of like 8 moves, 3 win poses, announcer voice, and sound effects in a high sample rate. This is just the way it is. Neo Geo CD has perfect sound effects to the cart as well. This is sound, so different subject. Some Neo CD games do suffer from missing frames and the missing taunts plus win poses on Last Blade 2 since it only had 7MB.
The Saturn didn't have the power to actually emulate the Neo Geo, it was reprogrammed for the Saturn's code. In a sense, it is done from scratch. Games like, Lunar or Resident Evil wasn't emulated between the PS1 and the Saturn. They are ports. What is being done on the PS2 for some SNK classics is actual emulation and some are not like KOF 2000-2003.
So, this brings me to what I have been trying to say over and over again. The Saturn has way more colors and a faster CPU, but it is held back due to the lack of RAM accessable at one time. There is the ups and downs of both systems. Now if you want to get into discussion with the RAM cart versus the Neo Geo being cart already, there is no point. The Neo Geo would still win due to it always being capable of accessing all memory at any time all the way up to 800mb which is 100MB. Sure, Sega could of made a real high Meg RAM cart or something, but that would have not been practical in the market at all. Plus the speed of the RAM getting to the system due to the BUS speed isn't fast enough. KOF 99 actually used a speed enhancement chip in the chipware of the cart.
Lets just quit trying to say one system is just SIMPLY better than the other by this information. They are just different. You choose Saturn, I choose Neo Geo. They both have their different aproaches to 2D. Yes Neo Geo games cost a lot and arn't for the common game consumers. Look at it this way, remember when these games came out? They were several times better than most things the SNES could do and even more times than the Genesis.
I had enough of this back and forth stuff, this will obviously last till eternity since we are both going to beleive what we beleive. We both have facts and facts overlooked.
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Keranu, I am talking specifically about raw system capabilities, which makes your "I like the artwork the best" point completely invalid. But just know that people who like less-capable systems usually say things like that. They HAVE to.
Yes but when people say that Neo Geo or SNK is the king of 2D, they don't mean it in a technical standpoint but purely artistic. I won't deny the Saturn being a more powerful system, but the "king of 2D crown" still belongs to the Neo Geo in my opinion.
Play just about any game I mentioned in my list above except for the fighting games as Keranu mentioned. As you are playing them, ask yourself if you've seen the Neo Geo do anything like it. Then ask yourself if you think the Neo Geo could do it. The answer will be "f*ck noooo!!!" You can't walk behind waterfalls in the Neo Geo unless is is ugly mesh like the Genesis. You can walk behind them on the Saturn because it uses transparencies. Which artwork is better? I'll take the transparencies, I don't care what Keranu says (though he'll likely come up with an argument on why mesh looks better). Sorry Keranu, mesh looks worse even over RF. Anyway, this is about system capabilities, not what looks best through Keranu's RF connection on his 1978 Zenith TV. Also the Neo Geo couldn't do the segmented bosses of Cotton 2 as well because it didn't have rotation and couldn't move the limbs as smoothly. The Neo Geo version of the same boss would be noticeably more choppy and would require more memory to do the same thing since it would need a sprite for each position of the segment's location/rotation.
OK so if I made a game that featured like 1,000 single colored blocks all over the screen and featured transparency, rotation, and all that other technical stuff, would that mean it had good graphics? In a technical standpoint, sure, but what do you think the average Joe (lol) is going to think? Of course they're just gonna think it looks stupid. Like I said, you're missing the key point to why Neo Geo fans praise it's 2D and that's for the artwork.
And no of course I wouldn't use a 80's Zenith TV for Saturn or Neo Geo since those TVs are best for systems designed for it, such as the Atari 2600 8) . For a Neo Geo, I'd prefer an arcade cabinet and for a Saturn, probably a sturdy mid-90's TV with AV. I'm sorry that I play systems the way they were originally designed, Joe. :(
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Keranu,
I look at game systems as that they're designed for me to hook them up to whatever I want. And if they don't ahve the output I want on them, it will be installed. hah.
I'll hook any game system up to a large sized television. I knew of folks who did it with a Sega Genesis in the mid 90's. No one ever at his house, or his guests, ever complained about it's look.
The big thing about the Neo Geo for me is that it is the ARCADE AT HOME. The Saturn is a decent system for the time. However, my thoughts on Neo Geo has pretty much been, Neo Geo = Arcade. Granted, that's 90's Arcade machine. It's a beefy 2D system, that lasted quite a while, and was able to do some pretty cool stuff during it's 14-year run.
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The Saturn was designed to be viewed in RGB (or s-video or composite or RF). You'd probably choose composite.
It doesn't mean the Neo Geo couldn't do it [rotation]
EXACTLY! That is what I've been trying to say... nobody really pushed the Neo Geo the way that the developers pushed the Genesis. Of course the Neo Geo could do it, but it never did. They could have found good uses for it that enhanced gameplay.
The Saturn didn't have the power to actually emulate the Neo Geo
Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much? I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down. To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not. Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent.
Read again on Blazing Star, the Saturn would have had to do ridicously often loading to get through one stage like that.
The Saturn can stream data, and I don't mean in the FMV sense. Not everything needs to be loaded into RAM while redbook audio plays. There are many games that have ridiculously long levels that could not fit into 7 megs on the Saturn, but they are streamed as the stage progresses and it is done so very well. I'm sure it could handle it. Astal is streamed. Fighting games where everything must be in memory at once cannot be streamed in this manner. A shooter? Definitely.
The system can do as much paralaxing as it needs and a lot of detail with no moving graphics.
I don't recall saying that it can't. It just does pretty much everything with sprites. The sprites can be freakin' huge.
Yes but when people say that Neo Geo or SNK is the king of 2D, they don't mean it in a technical standpoint but purely artistic.
Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games. The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be. Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games. Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors.
OK so if I made a game that featured like 1,000 single colored blocks all over the screen and featured transparency, rotation, and all that other technical stuff, would that mean it had good graphics?
Don't be retarded. You say only the artwork matters and all of that other stuff isn't really needed. The artwork in Astal would look much worse without transparencies. It would look lame to see Megaman run behind a dithered waterfall in MegaMan X4 isntead of a nice, clean transparent one.
Neo Geo = Arcade
Technically, yes. But to me the Neo Geo = CONSOLE. Why? Well, it can only play Neo Geo games, for one. And I have seen very, very few Neo Geo MVS units in arcades, even big ones. And when they were there, the cabinets said NEO GEO, not ART OF FIGHTING or whatever. So even when I played a Neo Geo in an arcade, I always felt I was playing a game designed for the Neo Geo specifically, not an actual arcade game like Golden Axe or Space Harrier or similar. It was kind of like going to the arcade and playing an STV game. It just didn't quite have that "arcade feel".
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Joe,
I had a different arcade experience than you. Nearly every arcade I went to had a Neo Geo cabinet. There is still a small arcade around here that had a 2-slot Neo Geo cabinet last I saw. Onyl game I recall running on it was Samurai Shodown 2.
Seeing one of those cabinets in the early-mid 90's was pretty cool... Being able to choose a game was pretty nice also, switching between game demos to see what each game played like. I still have World Heroes taunts stuck in my head, due to an arcade.
The cabinets may have said Neo-Geo, however they often had mini-marquees showing what each button does.
I knew of ONE person during the early 90's who had a Neo Geo console. The idea of taking (pretty much, if you count the times game were released on AES censored) the same arcade game home.... wow.
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Resting in peace.
Technically, yes. But to me the Neo Geo = CONSOLE. Why? Well, it can only play Neo Geo games, for one. And I have seen very, very few Neo Geo MVS units in arcades, even big ones. And when they were there, the cabinets said NEO GEO, not ART OF FIGHTING or whatever. So even when I played a Neo Geo in an arcade, I always felt I was playing a game designed for the Neo Geo specifically, not an actual arcade game like Golden Axe or Space Harrier or similar. It was kind of like going to the arcade and playing an STV game. It just didn't quite have that "arcade feel".
What???? I hope you noticed that a lot of arcade games made by many companies used the same board designs for their games for years. That would be like saying CPS1 and CPS2 is not arcade because it uses the same board layouts. Sega BTW used System 16 and 32 for awhile.
On rotation.....
EXACTLY! That is what I've been trying to say... nobody really pushed the Neo Geo the way that the developers pushed the Genesis. Of course the Neo Geo could do it, but it never did. They could have found good uses for it that enhanced gameplay.
Why did they need to do rotation effects. I guess that means all their games suck because of that. Why is that so important? Isn't that just a matter of preference?
Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much? I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down. To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not. Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent.
1 Meg RAM cart and it should have loaded in the middle of stages more often due to just having that much RAM. Neo Geo version runs fine AES and CD. There are crap tons of frames going on in that game, more than what you see in sidescrollers on the Saturn that compare to like Metal Slug.
The Saturn can stream data, and I don't mean in the FMV sense. Not everything needs to be loaded into RAM while redbook audio plays. There are many games that have ridiculously long levels that could not fit into 7 megs on the Saturn, but they are streamed as the stage progresses and it is done so very well.
Ok it can stream the graphics but not with CD audio at the same time. It would have to pause and load. Also, the music in Blazing Star has really high quality PCM music, maybe the Saturn can do it but it would suffer a little since a lot the songs already took up some hefty memory on the V chips in the Neo Cart. The Neo CD couldn't even do it, that is why it was cancled on that platform.
Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games. The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be. Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games. Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors
Yeah, some of the earlier games up to 94 had darker and grainy graphics as the way you are putting it. Also, you just made a reference that the Genesis must be horrible when you put it that way (Mostly dark and colorless, when comparing to the SNES especially). As for grainy graphics and lacking livelyness of color, ummm OK. I am sure a lot of people will agree with you on that, especially with games like KOF 96-98, Last Blade 1-2, Fatal Fury 3, King of the Mosters 2, Real Bout Special and 2, Art of Fighting 3, Metal Slug 1-3, Top Hunter, Sengouku 2, Neo Bomberman, Baseball Stars 2, and about another 60 titles to choose from that I don't feel like listing out of the near 200 games.
Once again, it must just be preference. SNK atleast puts detail in every single pixel and sprite, right around the time the Saturn came out. Not to mention some of the lighting changes they do with each round on some games, like morning, day, evening and night changes. The effort they put into the actual detailed work on these games can't go unoticed. So you must not like any of the many different SNK artists that make different games. From your perception there must be just one art team doing every single game I bet. That would be like saying yeah the art sucks on SF2 and SF Alpha 2 because it is Capcom and their art style is the same on ALL games.
Are you playing these games on a real Neo Geo or is this via emulation? Mine is hooked through component video and I don't see any of this whatsoever in the really good games. If you do own a Neo Geo, why do you hate on it so much? I like both Capcom and SNK, but just because one isn't as PERFECT as the other doesn't mean it is something to dog on.
Look here is the thing. The Neo Geo was made in 1990, Sega Saturn was made in 1995 atleast in the US. Of course the Saturn is going to have advantages over the Neo Geo. So I guess I am just going to give up and let you win on this. It apparently doesn't matter what I or anyone else tells you since you are close minded on this from what I can see. My original qoute, best 2D system. As if in 2D only, made during the time of true 16-bit with the Genesis and SNES. Which you would have to be blind to say that the Neo Geo didn't blow those systems away in graphics. The 32X and maybe the Atari Jaguar(actually 32 bit) were the only systems before the Saturn console that could probably outdo the Neo Geo if it really tried. If you want to use rotation, scaling, and transparency as a reason why a system (like the SNES and Saturn) has superior 2D, then go ahead. I am sure many people will disagree in the reality of this.
BTW, I like pretty much all of these systems and games. They are just different. Some I like a little less than others and a very few I think were really crappy. Why choose an enemy out of very strong consoles with good games.
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The Saturn was designed to be viewed in RGB (or s-video or composite or RF). You'd probably choose composite.
Can the Saturn be played in RGB without having to do any mods? If that's the case, then I would definitely consider using RGB for Saturn.
Then why did Metal Slug on the Saturn slow down so much? I've seen Saturn games with TONS more stuff on the screen moving around at once with more detail and yet no slow down. To be honest, I have not played the Neo Geo version so I don't know if it slows down or not. Either the Saturn is emulating or SNK's Saturn programmers are really incompetent.
To help with your arguement, the Neo Geo version does slow down a lot, but not as much as the Saturn version.
Although I'm not a big fan of SNK art (they seemed to like mostly drab colors), I think something that is the King of 2D would need more platformers on it, not just shooters and fighting games. The Neo Geo is known mostly for its insane amount of fighting games, a genre for which I have little tolerance for when games aren't the best they can be. Very few Neo Geo games are actually bright, like Super Nintendo games. Like I said, SNK preferred drab and grainy colors.
SNKnostalgia summed this up. A lot of the earlier games were a bit drab and grainy, not all of them, but a lot. But in my opinion, I find Neo Geo games to be extremely bright and colorful! Just look at games like Garou: Mark of the Wolves, Last Blade 1 and 2 (the art style can be dark, but still colorful in many ways), Twinkle Star Sprites, Sengoku 3, KoF'98-2000 and 2003, Prehistoric Isle, etc. By the way, for you being a Genesis fan, I'm surprised you didn't like the darker colors in some Neo Geo games.
Don't be retarded. You say only the artwork matters and all of that other stuff isn't really needed. The artwork in Astal would look much worse without transparencies. It would look lame to see Megaman run behind a dithered waterfall in MegaMan X4 isntead of a nice, clean transparent one.
I think you're just mad because I made a very solid point :mrgreen: . I would have to play Astal again to check out it's technical features, but to me the main reason Astal looked so nice was because of the beautifully sketched artwork. The bottom line is that artwork comes first and technical effects is just a fantastic way of topping the eye candy. I'm not going to sit here and say technical effects suck because I do find them to be very neat, but SNK is hailed for it's artwork, as previously stated.
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What???? I hope you noticed that a lot of arcade games made by many companies used the same board designs for their games for years. That would be like saying CPS1 and CPS2 is not arcade because it uses the same board layouts. Sega BTW used System 16 and 32 for awhile.
Yes, I know... but I didn't know that then back when I roamed the arcades. Also, the arcade cabinets said things like SPACE HARRIER in giant text with artwork all around instead of SEGA SUPER SCALER or whatever the hell they called it with only a little square up top with the Space Harrier logo and button commands. I felt like I was playing a Space Harrier machine instead of a system with 6 games running on it. It just made the game stand out more in the arcade when it was done this way, in my opinion. Now if they had dedicated Magician Lord/Last Resort/whatever machines that were self-standing and then they started showing up on the Neo Geo perfectly intact (as they would), then my hard-on for the system would be lots bigger. It's just my experience and I'm sure a lot of Neo Geo MVS fans would mightily disagree, especially since they like having 2 or more slots in their home (switching carts must be a pain in the ass for them if they need 2 or more loaded at once to be happy).
Why did they need to do rotation effects. I guess that means all their games suck because of that. Why is that so important? Isn't that just a matter of preference?
Again since you cited the Neo Geo as basically the most powerful 2D console, I am just citing system capability. It didn't need to do rotation, though if the system had the capability I guarantee you tons of games would find use for it, just like scaling.
Ok it can stream the graphics but not with CD audio at the same time. It would have to pause and load.
No it wouldn't. Again you are assuming redbook audio. The music in Astal is streamed as well. There is no redbook audio. In other words, you can't just pop the CD into a CD player and listen to it. Astal probably isn't the best example of streaming that I could use, but it's the first one that pops into my head.
Also, you just made a reference that the Genesis must be horrible when you put it that way (Mostly dark and colorless, when comparing to the SNES especially).
Yes, but the Genesis only had 512 wimpy colors and the most it has ever put on screen in a legitimate game was somewhere around 167. The Genesis could have good graphics, yes, considering it's limited resources. The Neo Geo has 65,000 colors with over 4,000 onscreen at once. The reason I make the SNES comparison is because with a color count like that, you'd expect more advantage to be taken by the developers. This certainly doesn't mean the Neo is incapable in any way regarding colors. And yes, I find that a lot of the SNK art looks similar. There is definitely a difference between the early games and the middle games (think KoF 95-98 or whatever). I haven't seen Garou of the Wolves or whatever. I have the Dreamcast version and I hate it, but I imagine the NG version is different since the Dreamcast version uses polygons in the background.
Are you playing these games on a real Neo Geo or is this via emulation? Mine is hooked through component video and I don't see any of this whatsoever in the really good games.
On a real Neo Geo, my friend. I also play mine in component and games like Magician Lord look freakin' awesome! I tend not to collect the games which I think might not have graphics up to the standards of the system so I don't have any KoF games (I have 'em for the Saturn and never cared for the way they looked, but playing them was kind of fun). Anyway, as has already been pointed out, artwork preference is subjective. Just because I say an art style looks good doesn't mean it IS good, and just because other people say SNK style art looks good doesn't mean it IS good.
I think you're just mad because I made a very solid point
No, you were still missing my point with your example. You thought I was trying to say stuff like rotation was the only thing that matters. I only kept bringing it up because others were saying that the Neo Geo was the most capable 2D console. It lacks many capabilities in the hardware and I'm sure some of them could be done in software, though they never were to my knowledge.
Can the Saturn be played in RGB without having to do any mods?
Yes of course. It is a Sega system.
Look guys, I'm not "hating" on the Neo Geo. I just don't think it is as orgasmicly awesome as everyone else says it is. As far as I know, I am the only person on the planet who has ever DARED say anything even remotely negative about the console. I have a very detailed and critical eye, so when I see someone say things like the Neo Geo is more powerful at 2D than the 32-bit systems were, I can't stay silent. Is the Neo Geo more powerful than the Genesis and the SNES? You bet (Mode 7 wasn't something I really loved). Was it more powerful than the 32X? In most ways, yes. In 2D? HELL YES. Was it more powerful than the Jaguar at 2D? I think probably so, as the Jaguar didn't seem to be able to scroll multiple layers from what I saw (and what I saw was very little). Personally I think that the Neo Geo never reached the height of what it could truly do, which is why I say that the developers didn't push it like they did the Genesis. I wanted to see the Neo maxed out, man! It had a 68000 and those things can be pushed really far! I love my Neo, though I don't play it as often due to a lack of games that fit my tastes. I've got my eye on Neo Drift Out and Marmelade (or whatever it's called).
One thing of concern, though certainly not something worth arguing over, but why do people refer to the Neo Geo as a "dual processor" system and not the Genesis? Both had a 68000. Both had a Z-80 running the sound. What gives?
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Ooo! I forgot to add that the Neo Geo is definitely better at 2D than the 3DO is. Good Gawd.
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Cool then.
The Neo Geo did do some interesting new things in its later life. Games like Rage of the Dragons used a special PCM compression chip to get CD like audio but with somewhat FM scratchy radio quality and KOF 99 using speed enhancement in the chipset. One of the main reasons why they probably didn't go all the way so to speak was due to the more cost of the carts and SNK going bankrupt at the time. Which had to kill any future developement until it was reopened. It is bad enough that when Playmore came to be, all the games were $325 on average. Even Kof 2000 from NCSX was $265. It is true that the Neo Geo might have been able to do even more different things like special compressions or use of mini processors much like a Super FX chip. I wish that SNK made more arcade action/adventure type games instead of almost nothing but fighters. Still, I like them so it is cool with me. Atleast we got Metal Slug, Top Hunter, Sengouku 2, Shocktroopers, 3 really good space shooters and a few other types of games.
As for the Saturn RAM cart slot, not sure if it can or can't do some processing tricks. From what info is out there, it
is only cabable of doing 2D graphics memory and could not do anything with processing or the polygons. It was much like the serial port in the back of the PS1 system, but a little bit better since it could atleast do 2D graphics combined with its own 2D. Of course it was capable of doing communication with netlink, back-up ram, import carts and gameshark. It couldn't find a way around CD-R's other than the internal mod-chip. I think that may be why Sega limited the cart ports capabilites maybe, same reason why the PS1 allowed less possibilities with the serial port.
One thing of concern, though certainly not something worth arguing over, but why do people refer to the Neo Geo as a "dual processor" system and not the Genesis? Both had a 68000. Both had a Z-80 running the sound. What gives?
Genesis is known to have a Z-80 for sound in the first model and then it was thought to be gone by the time the Genesis 2 came out. So that might have something to do with it not being noticed. What sucks is you can't use the power convertor to play master system games on the Genesis 2 or 3. The Power Convertor probably was thought to be the only reason the Z-80 is in there period.
I haven't seen Garou of the Wolves or whatever. I have the Dreamcast version and I hate it, but I imagine the NG version is different since the Dreamcast version uses polygons in the background.
Yeah the DC version of Garou sucks ass. It has latent sound , 3D backgrounds and doesn't run all to great. The PS2 port is much better from what I have heard. The Neo Geo version of the game is awesome, but I personally am not the biggest fan of the game compared to the other fighters they made. Atleast, it was another series side story wise I guess. It does have some good music though.
Which reminds me, SNK did do some damn good music on their games. Especially when you here them on CD format.
Also by Maramalade, if you mean the game Matrimelee. Stay far away from it. It is one of the games that Playmore made that is considered not so great. I use to own it and I play Neo Geo fighters like crazy. This is actually a part of the Power instinct series. This game had some of the worst BG, scratchy obnoxious music (high pitch aliens singing in Japanese for example) and the characters suck. It is also hard as shit when you get to the boss. You have to use some cheap technique in order to even win, there is no straight up fighting her.
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I must ask:
Which would you consider to be the top 5 fighters for the Neo Geo? I'd probably be interested in picking up at least two of them. I'm not fond of the layered Fatal Fury games and I already have KoF 95-97 on the Saturn, but I think that's my only caveat. I looked at the Garou game on Youtube and the animation looked really good.
Also from what I heard, the music in Matrimelee sounds pretty cool when the console was set to Japanese. I've read that Rage of Dragons also sounded cool.. I think it was Metal Slug 3 or 4 that sounded pretty good as well, at least in the first stage. Basically what the Neo is doing is playing back one huge PCM sample of real recorded music. Unfortunately it is mono when they do this, otherwise the Neo would have to play back two huge PCM samples at the same time, one for left and the other for right. Z80 might have said "Enough!". As for sounding like FM-radio, that is about right. I'm not sure exactly what the Neo Geo's PCM specs are, but I imagine it is 8-bit sampling with a max rate of either 24,000Hz or 32,000Hz, but I am betting it is probably 24,000.
The Genesis 2 did have a Z80. You can run Sega Master System games on it, but you need to either disassemble the normal Power Base Converter to get it to fit or buy a special one from Europe which is made to fit the model 2. Model 3 uses some sort of combo 68k/z80 chip. Apparently it could be made to run SMS games but it is missing one set of instructions for that to be enabled. But the Z-80 does handle sound in many if not most games on the system, so it must be there.
As for the Saturn cart slot, I have no idea what it's full capabilities were. I just know that when the Saturn was being designed, there was going to be a cart only version and a cart + CD version. I figured the cart slot was left over from that design. Not sure about its bandwidth capabilities.
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It's about time this debate has cooled over 8) .
I must ask:
Which would you consider to be the top 5 fighters for the Neo Geo? I'd probably be interested in picking up at least two of them. I'm not fond of the layered Fatal Fury games and I already have KoF 95-97 on the Saturn, but I think that's my only caveat. I looked at the Garou game on Youtube and the animation looked really good.
My top five favorite fighters for the Neo Geo would probably be:
KoF'98 - Best fighting game of all time, but I say this from a very technical standpoint.
KoF'97 - Basically like '98, except you get an awesome story in single player mode. I prefer '98 over this however for the extra characters and a few better special move adjustments.
Last Blade 2 - Awesome, awesome game. Though the first one had cooler backgrounds and better music, I prefer this game for the slightly better gameplay.
Garou: Mark of the Wolves - Though I find it a little overrated, it's still a lovely game. The Just Defense system is fun, but I prefer KoF-style mechanics and combos.
FATAL FURY - I enjoy this purely for cheese reasons, so you might want to avoid this. It does have an interesting two player option where both players co-operate to defeat the computer.
Joe, I've also compiled a list of fighting games that I think you would like for Neo Geo:
Art of Fighting 3 - I've never been too fond of the stiff feeling controls of AoF, but this game improves that a bit and has very nice vibrant graphics. Check out the first two for cooler 70's style storylines though.
Kabuki Klash - Really bright fighting game starring the Tengai Makyou / Far East of Eden characters. Uses weapons and shit, pretty neat.
Kizuna Encounter - This is a awesome tag team fighting game, old-school style too. There is a really unique prequel to this game, but I never know the name! It stars the main character with the boomerang and you can jump up on platforms and shit during the levels, it was cool.
Last Blade - Like a more serious Samurai Shodown game with smoother gameplay and fantastic artwork.
Ninja Masters - Fun, underdiscussed ninja fighting game with interesting gameplay if I recall.
Real Bought Fatal Fury series - A more hyper Fatal Fury game with lots of characters and cool combos. I'm pretty sure it still has the two planes though.
Waku Waku 7 - I think you would really like this game a lot and it's the whole reason why I made this list. Huge sprites, ultra colorful graphics, crazy humor, and fun simple gameplay. Nice game and it has a Saturn port too!
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The Saturn port of Waku Waku 7 requires the 4MB RAM cart. Any word on how it compares to the original? This isn't SNK which is why they used the 4MB cart instead of the 1MB I take it.
I'm pretty sure all proper Fatal Fury games have the two layers.
I am interested in Last Blade because people seem to like it so much. But I get a bit scared when you say "a more serious Samurai Shodown". My experience with Samurai Shodown is extremely limited, and the first time I played it was on the 3DO where is was really choppy and slow. It seemed to take itself overly serious since it barely had any music (just Japanese sounding instruments here and there, etc). It also seemed quite hard.
The two fighting games I have for the Neo Geo now are Fatal Fury 2 which I find very hard to control and SvC Chaos which controls nicely, but has that dickwad Geonutz who keeps cheating with his "Cocoa diska" move.
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The Saturn port of Waku Waku 7 requires the 4MB RAM cart. Any word on how it compares to the original? This isn't SNK which is why they used the 4MB cart instead of the 1MB I take it.
I haven't played the Saturn port, I just seem to hear ab00t it often.
I am interested in Last Blade because people seem to like it so much. But I get a bit scared when you say "a more serious Samurai Shodown". My experience with Samurai Shodown is extremely limited, and the first time I played it was on the 3DO where is was really choppy and slow. It seemed to take itself overly serious since it barely had any music (just Japanese sounding instruments here and there, etc). It also seemed quite hard.
I never really got into the Samurai Shodown series and when I say Last Blade is more serious, I mean it doesn't have as many wild moves or characters and has deeper gameplay. It's similar that they both feature a similar Japanese sword fighting theme and have the neat zoom effect, but gameplay wise they're pretty different. I think you'll be pleased with Last Blade as it features a really nice soundtrack that fits the game's atmosphere very well.
The two fighting games I have for the Neo Geo now are Fatal Fury 2 which I find very hard to control and SvC Chaos which controls nicely, but has that dickwad Geonutz who keeps cheating with his "Cocoa diska" move.
Fatal Fury 2 is a fun old skool fighter, but does have stiff controls. Fatal Fury 3 has better controls as well as sharp graphics and a awesome 80's opening, but I found the new characters to be stupid and the gameplay still could've improved. FF3 reminds me of AoF3 a lot.
I don't often play fighting games on one player, but SNK is notorius for having really cheap bosses in their fighting games, especially that dick in KoF'2001. I'd use a very offensive character (Kyo would be good) and roll past his Cocoa diskas and then when close enough to him, combo the crap out of him.
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I don't often play fighting games on one player, but SNK is notorius for having really cheap bosses in their fighting games, especially that dick in KoF'2001. I'd use a very offensive character (Kyo would be good) and roll past his Cocoa diskas and then when close enough to him, combo the crap out of him.
Eiiiish KOF 2001 was the only KOF to actually make my stomache turn. It was so incompleted and had bland colors. It was the first Playmore games made by a company in Korea called Eolith. The later ones where inmprovements though, way better. For the cheap bosses, this is the guidline: games made in 1994-95 and all Playmore fighters period. There are a few games that have cheap bosses from the other years here and there.
I am interested in Last Blade because people seem to like it so much. But I get a bit scared when you say "a more serious Samurai Shodown". My experience with Samurai Shodown is extremely limited, and the first time I played it was on the 3DO where is was really choppy and slow. It seemed to take itself overly serious since it barely had any music (just Japanese sounding instruments here and there, etc). It also seemed quite hard.
Yeah, the Neo Geo version is way better than that version. Even the Genesis one seems better than it was on 3DO. Samurai Shodown 2 for the Neo Geo is a real good fighter and dirt cheap at like $20. It has a huge character line up, best endings and good BG with a lot of them. It is the older style Samsho which the characters arn't real big like SS3 and SS4. SS3 and SS4 are different, in ways of SS3 having better color plus BG and more challenge. SS4 has more characters which are fun, a combo system and decent endings. SS2 up to SS4 had much more music, so it is balance with those japanese drums and chants stages.
I must ask:
Which would you consider to be the top 5 fighters for the Neo Geo? I'd probably be interested in picking up at least two of them. I'm not fond of the layered Fatal Fury games and I already have KoF 95-97 on the Saturn, but I think that's my only caveat. I looked at the Garou game on Youtube and the animation looked really good.
Real Bout Fatal Fury Special - I know it has the line system but it doesn't do it all stiff like FF 1 and 2/Special did it like. Also, it had a solid combo system and badass moves and supers. Yamazaki is real fun to play on this one since he can do 3 of his snake arm hit in one long charge. That and his SDM move is brutal as hell. I like FF 3 just as much since it is rather a little outdated in gameplay compared to this one, I list this. ** If you really, really don't like the 2 line system you can turn it off on Real Bout 2, so you might like that better.**
The King of Fighters 98 - on the actual cart system it is pretty much my favorite version. I like 96 and 97 the same, but I picked this one since it offers more. I have played the Saturn version of 97 and this is much more solid on the Neo Geo. KOF 96 was almost as perfect as the Neo Geo version minus the voice and sound effects with the Saturn. I couldn't stand the Dreamcast port of 98.
Last Blade 2 - Same reason Kerenu likes it. I played LB 1 in the arcades when it came out and couldn't walk away from the machine I was so amazed. It is a fast paced fighter with the best weapon system fighting mechanics I have ever played. It blows SS away in terms of fighting system. The ports for all systems never did it justice.
Art of Fighting 3 - It changed up the AOF series completely. It is made by the same team that did Mark of The Wolves which is also the same that did the Last Blade series. It has a really good combo system that is very unique, some of the best frame movement of characters I have seen, damn good BG on a few stages and the music was really cool with its jazzy sound. Completely different game from the other AOF games. This is one of the most different SNK games I have ever seen out of the fighters.
Samurai Shodown 2 - I personally like this game since they put shit tons of effort in it and it was fun to play. It is hard for me to pick a favorite Samshow game. I guess I like this one the most since it improved on what SS1 did a by adding many more characters,with BG stages and endings on it that are really nice. It had an overall kick ass feel and enviroment in it. The challenge is just right, as isn't all too hard if you get better at it.
Kerenu pretty much listed the rest of some good Neo Geo fighters. Yes I will admit it, I played Fatal Fury 1 before SF2 in the arcades so that may have something to do why I still love the hell out of it. It may be stiff and outdated in fighting, atleast not as bad as SF1 eeewww. I liked how they did the game with the light changes when outside, 2 on 1 against the computer and badass voice effects especially when doing moves.
As for some great non-fighters...
Metal Slug 3 - This is the one with the most put into it. You have different routes, more fun tidbits, some new weapons and vehicles and really good music. Heavy metal on the desert stage when riding the camel gets you going.
Shocktroopers 1 - The graphics may not be as great as the Metal Slugs, but it is fun as hell and the music will get you hyped. It is an overhead shoot-em up like Mercs. You can choose a team of 3 people to play out of 8 in all. The weapons are great and you can also choose different routes. You would have to buy a conversion of the MVS or get the MVS Cab/Phantom Convertor to play the original cart.
Blazing Star - Pretty much my favorite Space shooter on here. More ships to choose, lots of frame usage and good music.
NAM 1975 - Oh yeah, the first Neo Geo game and had classic 80's SNK all over it with voice acting that will crack you up. It plays like Cabal but more improvements. This game almost seems more like an older SNK arcade game instead of Neo Geo which makes it more unique.
Top Hunter - Fun beat-em up, but more of an action platformer with special moves like the fighting games. Really cool game.
Baseball Stars 2 - This game is just a fun classic arcade sports game. It has it good feel to it and is just plain fun to play.
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Would someone be so kind as to make me a small anchovy pizza on a thin crust? That sounds good about now. Thanks!
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Anything for you, kid_rondeau.
Anyway, I am seeing some Samurai Shodown 2's online, but none of them have the number "2" in any form on the box. Some auctions call it Shin Samurai Spirits. I don't want to accidentally get the first game.
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As long as the cover shows a big face shot of Hoamaru instead of him holding a sword in the water your good to go. Yeah, we did take up a good 2 pages on here. ](*,)
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It was entertaining and educational, so who cares? Besides, how many threads go over one page and manage to stay on topic? I'll give ya a hint - somewhere between zero and none.
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Back on topic here, the JROK boards aren't compatible with PCE/Turbo by themselves. This has been known for quite some time and James (JROK) isn't really sure of the problem. I've tracked it down to some missing components it seems, but I'm not 100% sure of what it is. Either way, there is no real need to get a JROK over either grahf's or anyone else's S-Video mods. And since the JROK component board is based on the S-Video board, it doesn't work for the PCE/Turbo either. Some day I'll probably sit down and figure it out, but that day isn't today....
The RGB mods seem to be a pain in the ass. If you want to get a good RGB mod, just pull the RGB output off the CXA2075 or CXA1645 chips used in the S-Video mods. It looks fantastic.
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The Saturn port of Waku Waku 7 requires the 4MB RAM cart. Any word on how it compares to the original? This isn't SNK which is why they used the 4MB cart instead of the 1MB I take it.
I currently don't have my Saturn hooked up to test it, but I'm %99.9 sure this is incorrect. The case for Waku Waku 7 just says it needs the "memory cartridge". Games that require the 4MB cart specifically say, "4MB" in the little compatibility blurb on the case. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the 4MB cart wasn't even out yet when WW7 was released. If it was, it was very close, and I distinctly remember Vampire Savior being the 2nd 4MB game.
The Saturn port of WW7 is pretty nice. I actually haven't spent much time with the Geo one, but I kind of wonder if the original has as much slowdown at the final stage. Maybe that slowdown is actually there on purpose (Dural Style) since you are supposed to be fighting kaiju, and they always move slow, right?
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Ok,I am going to jump on this for a min.
WW7 for the Saturn is not as good as it is on the Neo. Its close,but there are many issues with it. Still very much worth buying if you don't have a Neo but you have a Saturn.
The SNK ports on Saturn were not emulated. The games were re-programed from the ground up for the Saturn. Most were what I would consider 95-98 percent perfect depending on how nit picky you are. Slowdown on Metal Slug is normal,even the Neo cart has a tad bit of slow down. A couple of graphic bugs from the neo game were fixed in the Saturn one,but the Saturn had a couple of bugs in a couple of areas itself. Nothing major. you prob would not notice unless I pointed it out to you. The audio was not exact on the Saturn,but it was more then good enough. The only bad Neo port on Saturn was Fatal Fury 3. It was rancid due to slow gameplay/bad programming.
Blazing Star couldn't be done on the Saturn. Simply not enough ram. That game actually was one of the first to kick Neo Rage X's ass emu wise because of memory issues if you had a comp with 64 megs or lower. Neo emulation is going good on DC now,but Blazing Star has to pre-cache like a mutha f*cker as it plays because even the DC doesn't have enough ram to load it,even a stage at a time in pre-cache.
The Saturn was also a cart based system. Its called STV you f*ck wits :P. I am totally surprised that went over all your heads,esp Joes as he comes across as a Sega nutt. The ST-V could not have as large a carts memory size wise as the Neo. Either way it could still be impressive. http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=711
Blazing Star coulda been done on the ST-V I feel without issues,because of the cart access.
The thing everyone seems to be missing here is that it took a extremely powerful 32-bit system with at the time very powerful 2d ability to even come close to offering close to perfect ports of Neo-Geo games. Even the DC had issues with Last Blade 2 and Mark of the Wolves. Not massive ones,but you did notice them if you were picky.
To me it was a solid mix of "at the time advanced' future proof hardware,which out-lasted all the other 2d systems released in that time period,the ability to access such large amounts of ram,and great programmers that gave the Neo the chance to bring us some true classics.
BTW,not sure if the correct Neo res was given,but on my SNK spec sheet I have its listed as 320x224. I don't think it matters much. No way in hell could the Genesis touch the Neo Geo,even with the Sega CD add on. Thats not a argument worth doing.
Art of Fighting 3 is very very impressive for the system. To me its a better game then Mark of the Wolves.
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BTW, I dont remember Mark of the Wolves having 3d backgrounds reworked for DC at all. It was a normal port as far as I can remember. The reworks into 3d were KOF 98 and KOF 99. On those 2 they redid the backgrounds completely in a 3d engine. I still hate how they named 98 "Dreammatch 99". Really stupid decision.
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I agree that the Genesis/Sega CD could not touch the Neo Geo, but at the same exact time, the Neo Geo can't touch the Sega CD. The Neo could never do Batman Returns or Soul Star even if its life depended on it. It's funny how different systems can do different things, but none of them can do everything!
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Yea pretty much. The Sega Cds main issue was they gave it the ability to do some nice things sprite wise,and gave it barely enough memory to do what it was designed to do. With more ram onboard games on it could have been much better,with more going on and way more details. Still,the Sega Cd was a nice add on. It does have a nice selection of keepers,and if you have a import cart to boot Mega Cd games,there is a ton of Mega-CD games that are just awesome.
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Although I agree that the Sega CD definitely could have used more memory, I think the biggest debilitating factor was the bandwidth between the CD unit and the Genesis itself.
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Sega CD had a decent Samurai Showdown for the non Neo Geo systems (for the time). And the duo never got a port even tough there was an Arcade Card..... :-({|=
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Although I agree that the Sega CD definitely could have used more memory, I think the biggest debilitating factor was the bandwidth between the CD unit and the Genesis itself.
For performance reasons that would have definitely helped with some issues on games with a lot going on screen. The main thing, (at least to me) would have been 256 color support. Just imagine if the system could go all out with colors like a TG-16 or SNES. Popful Mail is one game that gives you a glimpse of what great color usage can do for the Sega CD.
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what exactly does rgb and scart to component mean when talking about modding a duo...i think these are the best way(s) to go when doing upgrade mods right? :-k
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what exactly does rgb and scart to component mean when talking about modding a duo...i think these are the best way(s) to go when doing upgrade mods right? :-k
The best way to go is doing whatever suits you best, not necessarily what everyone else seems to be doing. If your fine with S-vid, do that mod, if you desire tapping RGB out to use on a RGB monitor, or to convert to component for your component video capable tv, do that. If none of that really means anything to you, and you are fine with composite out, stick to that. To each their own.
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tv does rgb and s vid, just want to know what the mods do...are they mainly for output to be brighter or do graphics and sound get improved also? thanks.
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Thor,
a little reading for you on video and RGB primer:
Video Primer:
http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml
RGB Primer:
http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2000/1201_rgbprimer.shtml
Scart doesn't pertain to people that live in US, that is for monitors found in the UK and JP (keep me honest here guys).
Component video is the highest analog video signal available US TV's (HDMI is highest right now on digital signals). Our systems have RGB capability, and RGB is the mother of all analog video signal. Now US TV's don't accept RGB input, so converting from RGB to Component will give you the best possible TV signal next to using a monitor that accepts RGB.
Does that help? Read up a little and I think u will understand more.
Composite Video < S-Video < Component Video / RGB (direct signal)
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Component video and RGB (scart) are very very close in terms of quality. They're basically the same signal (resolution) with different ways of sending color information. You can buy a transcoder to convert it for you. There should be very little loss in quality, if any. See more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr
Some US TVs can take a RGB signal on their component inputs, or you can usually feed an RGB signal into a VGA input if your TV has one.
The problem then is that you'll probably need a HDTV to get these inputs, and they tend to do very ugly things to 240p video from older game consoles. :)
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Thor as ooPo said some HDTV's can accept RGB via the VGA input, but a very limited amount of them do that (and you won't see that advertised). That is the reason the component boards are ideal because most of the better TV's have that input. RGB/Component are very close, but US TV's are normally built to properly receive pure RGB.
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hey thanks guys, ... i'm very new to all of this so sorry for stupid questions, i'll upload a picture of korky from life goes on for my profile. i read those links , understood some stuff... i have a digital t.v w/ s video input and i think rgb also... i have a big fat red,green,blue cable from the dvd to the tv, i'm pretty sure its just red blue and green cuz its not an hdtv. so i guess ol boy that did rgb and scart to component wasn't in the u.s. however he said jrok encoders reds are off and don't work well with duos, do rgb and buy scart to component converter cuz its cheaper and it looks better... :-k is this true?
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i saw a composite/ s-vidoe to component video out converter on s-video.com.... this alone probably won't work though huh?
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that wouldn't do anything for picture quality improvement. In some cases it would look worse.