PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => Virtual Console TG/PCE Discussion => Topic started by: Monster Bonce on June 04, 2007, 09:49:25 PM
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Does anyone else think it's odd that Nintendo are calling it the TurobGrafx-16 and not PC Engine in the European Virtual Console? The PCE was a lot better known in Europe (and more highly regarded, though that's no slight on the TG, just a comment on NEC/TTI's US release policy) than its American cousin.
I know there was an "official" (not really) TG in France or Spain but, on the whole, the PCE was much, much more common.
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I thought that the Turbografx-16 was the official europe release and not the pcengine. I always see them on ebay, with their funky color scheme, haha. I do know what you mean about pcengine being more common there. I think that I read that there were only a few releases on the funky euro tg-16.
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I've never thought that the European TG was 100% legit. If it was the genuine article, no-one bought it. In Ireland, France and the UK at least the PC Engine (especially the CoreGrafx) was the most common NEC machine.
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I thought that the Turbografx-16 was the official europe release and not the pcengine.
The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.
The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.
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They probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English.
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It's pretty weird that they even have it here, as nobody knows what Turbo Grafx is, and that none of the games released for it were released here (all the other VC game releases were originally released in Europe, I think).
Maybe that's why it's there... so that curious people can try out something new. I haven't heard many good things about it though. :P
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Would you call buying a PCE from groups like Sodipeng 'importing'?
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OK, well, the Sodipeng situation is an interseting one. I wouldn't necessarily call that importing, but at the risk of starting a debate, I'd hardly call it any kind of "official" release. I'd never even heard of Sodipeng until sometime within the last year, however, I remember hearing about the PAL TurboGrafx European release like 15 years ago. For all intents and purposes this was the "official" (backed/funded/licensed/whatever by NEC) release our hardware saw on those shores, regardless of whether or not anybody remembers it. This is the reason I believe Hudson and Nintendo choose to go with the TurboGrafx as the VC for Europe.
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What's Sodipeng.
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its some french pc engine company that puts its name on turbo pads
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The TG-16 was only test marketed in Europe.
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What's Sodipeng.
They were a French company (as turbo D said) and they're name is an abridgment of 'society for the importation of PC Engine' (the French equivalent, anyway). They imported various PC Engine hardware and sold their own branded controllers. I'd thought that they were different from the 'official' controllers and not just rebranded, but I could be wrong. Check out some of their old adds here (http://www.hutrad.fr/pages/CataloguePCEngine/catalogue_p1.html).
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PAL sucks.
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PAL sucks.
I don't really know anything about it, but what I've heard isn't good. In fact, I've never heard anything positive about it at all.
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For regular TV, I'd think a lot of laymen probably wouldn't notice the difference at first glance. It looked somewhat cleaner to me than your average NTSC screens (higher res), but you can definitely tell it flickers more than NTSC. Well, at least I could. (Some people were amazed that I could immediately tell when older CRT computer monitors were running at lower refresh rates -- it'd bug the shit out of me, but they really couldn't notice the flickering difference unless I showed them big white screens at 60Hz and 100Hz.)
Anyway -- for gaming, PAL really does seem to suck.
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(Some people were amazed that I could immediately tell when older CRT computer monitors were running at lower refresh rates -- it'd bug the shit out of me, but they really couldn't notice the flickering difference unless I showed them big white screens at 60Hz and 100Hz.)
You're like me, then. I can't see how people can't notice it.
My Apple //GS monitor has a refresh rate of like 50Hz. As much as the Apple //GS kicks ass, there's only so much I can take of that monitor.
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Nothing runs in 50Hz anymore. That's ancient technology. All modern CRT TVs run at 100 Hz and new video games (with a few exceptions) at 60. PAL is evolving, unlike... other formats. :wink:
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PAL is superior for television, though only just. American television looks slightly blurry to European eyes when it's mapped to the higher-res PAL screen. Broadcast NTSC suffers from colour inconsistency.
NTSC's advantage is 60 fields per second (30 frames per second with alternating lines) versus PAL's 50 fields (25 fps).
In some regards Secam is better again—625 lines like PAL and 60 fields—but it's a real pain for post-production. None of this really matters anymore, though, as TV has gone digital in Europe and we've used Scart (Syndicat des constructeurs d'appareils radiorécepteurs et téléviseurs, the euroconnector RGB) for videos and DVDs for years.
Lots of gamers complain about the lower refresh rate. I didn't notice back in the day. Whether or not I'd notice now, I couldn't say.
The other complaint was the letterbox format. Obviously video games were designed for a certain screen resolution and people were irritated by the bars. Again, it never bothered me. Still doesn't.
I can't understand the complaints about letterboxing in film, though. I really hated how American film companies forced pan and scan on us with VHS. They did it because of American distaste for letterboxing which was considered more acceptable (and was very common) in Europe. The curse of the English language ensured that we just got PAL versions of American output. Thankfully pan and scan died when DVDs appeared.
What does NTSC stand for? Oh yes, Never The Same Colour.
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The point about monitors is fair enough, but you don't sit so close to the TV when viewing.
WRT computers, having since moved to a laptop I hate using any CRT monitor. Given that I used to be a graphic designer that was a problem—back then no LCD came near a CRT for colour accuracy but they eyeball shaving refresh really had an effect on my eyes.
Anyway, this PAL/NTSC stuff is all history now.
PS IIGS – cool. I wrote a feature on the history of the IIGS for a British magazine a few years back. Interesting machine. Might buy one.
It was the dev machine for the SNES until Nintendo developed in-house SNES emulation for the Mac.
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The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.
The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.
I don't consider it official and I don't think many do. Perhaps it was just test marketed as Black Tiger suggests. Wasn't it just in Spain, or something?
Yes, PCEs were all imports but there were an awful lot of them. A lot more than TG-16s.
Doubtlessly Keranu is correct when he writes that Nintendo "probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English." I think this is a mistake, though. The PC Engine was pretty well known among gamers back in the early 1990s and most people thought the TG-16 was an ugly beast. Maybe Nintendo aren't after the nostalgia market? Who knows.
Interestingly, when the SNES was released in the US, European gamers, in a moment of living up to clichés about our fey, feminised nature, balked at its design and complained so much that Nintendo released the European SNES with the Super Famicom's industrial design. I remember the complaints about the US machine very clearly. I also remember thinking it was ugly myself. Since then I've never seen one in real life, but I have to say I now think the ID is pretty good, though I still prefer the SF.
I am very glad to get PCE/TG-16 games on the VC in Europe at all, though. Roll on MSX, preferably Japanese MSX games because so many European ones were piss poor Spectrum conversions. Ugh.
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Yeah, for broadcast TV, I particularly don't care much whether the format is NTSC or PAL, especially considering all low-res analog stuff has gone/are going to be soon go the way of the dodo.
Just for classic gaming, If I had a PAL setup, I'd pretty much make sure that my TV could take 60Hz input (which I hear most non-ancient sets do anyway), and put a 50/60Hz selector on the systems. More so than having black bars, I'd just hate to have things looking squashed. And the slower gameplay would be kinda lame too. Now, if I grew up with those effects, I may not notice, but knowing what I know, I don't think I'd be able to stand little things like that.
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Sure. As you hint at it's really a non-issue these days. In fact, I think it's overstated a lot, particularly in US-centric games forums.
I don't remember any squashing, though I have read plenty about it. It would be a pretty crappy conversion that resorted to that. I've read that the Master System suffered from this but I can't remember. I do remember the letterboxing on my SNES, very vividly. Was it mostly with imported games? I can't remember. I also remember being able to switch between 50 and 60 on my TV. I might have added something to the console, but I doubt it.
It seems I can't remember much detail!
You'd have to look pretty hard to get a TV couldn't handle 60 Hz today, or any time in the last decade. Back in the early 90s it might have been trickier, but I don't think so.
The slower gameplay I didn't notice because, as you suggest, I'd never experienced anything else.
What a trip down amnesia lane...
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The other complaint was the letterbox format. Obviously video games were designed for a certain screen resolution and people were irritated by the bars. Again, it never bothered me. Still doesn't.
Letterboxing, squashed picture, and things moving slower than they are meant to in video games is sacrilege. I don't mind letterboxed movies, though, actually prefer getting the wider angle.
The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.
The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.
I don't consider it official and I don't think many do. Perhaps it was just test marketed as Black Tiger suggests. Wasn't it just in Spain, or something?
Whether or not people consider it official is irrelevant-- because it was official. It doesn't matter if I don't consider my cat a real cat-- she's still a cat. In Hudson's business eyes, I believe this is all that matters, and also why they are using TurboGrafx as the VC for Europe. I'm pretty sure it's actually Hudson calling the shots with the whole VC deal, not Nintendo. Whether or not this is a good move on their part is debatable, however. But as we all know, the NEC/Hudson camp isn't legendary for making great business decisions.
Black_Tiger may be correct in that it never passed the test market phase, but that doesn't change anything as far as it being financially backed by NEC.
And yes, I believe Spain was the primary test market though I've heard it was available elsewhere in extremely limited quantities.
PS IIGS – cool. I wrote a feature on the history of the IIGS for a British magazine a few years back. Interesting machine. Might buy one.
It was the dev machine for the SNES until Nintendo developed in-house SNES emulation for the Mac.
The Apple //GS is an incredible computer. Do you know there is a large quantity of third-party development still happening for it? The //GS has a lot of potential that only now, some 20+ years after it's release is being realized.
The //GS and SNES are internally similar, even share the same CPU, so it's no surprise Nintendo used it for development.
In my opinion, the CPU initially shipped was too slow. I put a faster CPU upgrade card in mine like five years ago and it just smokes.
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I'll demure to your knowledge on the Euro TG except to say, thank god it didn't get a wider release, the TG is one but ugly box! Mind you, a Euro PC Engine would of course have suffered from the TG's real flaw: paucity and poverty of game releases. I can't get my head around NEC's business decisions back then. Crazy.
Letterboxing is good with film because you get the whole picture. With a 70mm or 2:35:1/1:85:1 film converted to pan and scan you're getting only a part of the film. Offer to pay 1/3 of the price for the VHS copy and see how far you get.
I don't mind letterboxing in games at all, probably because I'm accustomed to it on TV (Pal Plus was letterboxed and so was D2MAC and HDMAC, our old European digital and HDTV standards) and film. Actually, it's ridiculous that so many broadcasters circumvented the *MAC and HD standards by using (relatively) low powered satellites to transmit their programmes. We should have had HD 15 years ago. Instead, all we got was the Olympic Games and a few operas.
I concede that squashing would annoy me quite a bit.
Anyway, IIGS. I did know there was some development going on but I didn't realise it was on any kind of scale. What kind of SW is being developed?
The IIGS was subject to several ropey decisions. Stereo audio and a good sound chip but only mono output?
You're right about speed. When developing for the SNES games ran very slowly because of the poor CPU frequency—1MHz normally and a blistering 2.8MHz in "fast mode", I think.
I interviewed a IIGS game developer for the feature. He didn't do terribly well on it because of low sales figures and many users sticking to 8-bit Apple II software but was in a great position when the SNES appeared. It was the developer of Nanosaur on the Mac. His name escape me at the moment but I'll dig through my archive and see if I can find the article, or better still, the interview notes.
Have you seen the Mensch Computer?
http://www.65xx.com/wdc/mensch_computer.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_Computer
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Doubtlessly Keranu is correct when he writes that Nintendo "probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English." I think this is a mistake, though. The PC Engine was pretty well known among gamers back in the early 1990s and most people thought the TG-16 was an ugly beast. Maybe Nintendo aren't after the nostalgia market? Who knows.
I doubt Nintendo (or Hudson Entertainment) even knew that Europe had a big PCE import market, so they probably saw no reason at all to use the PC Engine.
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Oh, they probably knew about the import scene - they just didn't care. European importation of the PC Engine was a small percentage of total sales, so they likely figured that having games in English was better than name recognition.
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I wouldn't dispute that for one second. European import sales would have been a fraction of TG sales in the US. Compared to Japanese sales they'd be a rounding error.
All I meant was, why not released the US TG games on the European VC as PC Engine games? That way they get English-language games plus the name recognition.
I suppose it all depends on what the target market is. People in their late 20s and 30s who remember the PCE, either from having one or reading about it in the magazines, or an entirely new market of retro game fans.
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All I meant was, why not released the US TG games on the European VC as PC Engine games? That way they get English-language games plus the name recognition.
'Cause people would bitch to no end that Hudson was 'lying' to them. As an extension of your idea - they should have just put "PCE / TG-16" on there and had the best of all possible worlds.
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Consider this: The PC Engine was only "popular" (that's a bit of an exaggeration) in UK and France (more or less, AFAIK) . There are more countries in Europe. Many more.
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Consider this: The PC Engine was only "popular" (that's a bit of an exaggeration) in UK and France (more or less, AFAIK) . There are more countries in Europe. Many more.
Yes I know, I live in one of those other countries. Several of the countries, however, didn't exist back then and many of them certainly wouldn't have heard of the TG either, whether in the east or the west.
On the PCE's popularity. I've addressed this above but it certainly did have a high profile among gamers. Not with the general public, obviously. The fact that it wasn't legitimately available gave it a mystique—the games were better, arcade perfect etc. Of course, given that you couldn't buy one on the high street these wildly exaggerated rumours quickly became "fact".
None of this matters, of course, but I think the TG-16/PCE moniker would have been a good compromise.
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And another thing: who is the VC for, exactly?
Nostalgic fools (arguably) like myself or a new audience? I'm not sure. Obviously it's really just a cheap revenue stream and to be a "success" it doesn't have to sell that many games. Still... who is it aimed at, exactly?
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From living in both America and Europe, Id really have to say that Europe has less when it comes to games, they get most games last and a lot of stuff just does not come out. The NES fever never reached the same fever pitch as it did back in the states, no matter what some swede or dutchman says about "We had NES too". It's just behind when it comes to consumer electronics, generally they don't want the latest stuff and every gadget and gizmo that comes along, as is more common in the US and Asian markets.
Certainly it varies alot from country to country, some of these countries didnt exist in the 80's, like the so called "Macedonia" which is really just a bunch of gypsies and bulgarians latching on to a new name to sound cool to the western europeans. As a general rule, when we were playing NES back in america, the eastern europeans were wiping their ass bare handed.
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Europe does lag behind in games, true, but not in consumer electronics generally. It's way ahead of North American in terms of mobile phones, digital radio and digital TV, for example.
Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia which was a very advanced Eastern Bloc country. But yes, in general the Eastern countries were not playing Nintendo.
Re the NES, remember that the Sega Master System and local European 8-bit computers had a big head start.
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The only reason europe was ahead with the mobile phones, was because they had a single standard, where in the US they had 3 different standards which really f*cked everything up.
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And whatever popularity the Sega Master System had, it wasnt shit compared to the power nintendo had in the 80's in america, there is no comparison.
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And whatever popularity the Sega Master System had, it wasnt shit compared to the power nintendo had in the 80's in america, there is no comparison.
This is true. There was a motion in 1989 to replace the current US government with Nintendo of America based out of Redmond, WA, and rename the union "United States of Nintendo".
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And another thing: who is the VC for, exactly?
Nostalgic fools (arguably) like myself or a new audience? I'm not sure. Obviously it's really just a cheap revenue stream and to be a "success" it doesn't have to sell that many games. Still... who is it aimed at, exactly?
I think that it's aimed at the nostalgic fools and the casual gamers looking for something simple and easy to play (much like some of the online content for the 360 and PS3).
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Europe does lag behind in games, true, but not in consumer electronics generally. It's way ahead of North American in terms of mobile phones, digital radio and digital TV, for example.
Has 3G been launched in North America yet? It's been around in Europe since 2003 I think.
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The only reason europe was ahead with the mobile phones, was because they had a single standard, where in the US they had 3 different standards which really f*cked everything up.
It's not as simple as that. Ridiculous US pricing schemes were also a hindrance to wider adoption. However, standards were an issue. That's also why the US lags behind in DTT and digital radio—the laissez faire approach makes buying into a new technology going out on a limb.
Also Europe has very advanced manufacturers of mobile phones we didn't have to wait on US or Japanese cast offs like we've had to with some other forms of consumer electronics (viz. video games).
Someone in America can confirm this but I'm sure 3G is available in the US. I've had 3G phones here in Europe for a couple of years—at least since 2004 or 2005—and I still haven't found a use for it. Actually, I can't stand mobile phones.
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Mobile phones really don't matter in the end, as long as they don't cut you off when your trying to talk to some girl your trying to bang, I don't really care what kinda phone it is. I heard in Italy, many guys switch out the simcards in their phones, based on different girls or sets of girls, for example, you would have one sim card for your friends and family, then another sim card for your girlfriend, and then another sim card for the girls your banging on the side and don't want your girlfriend to know about.
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I severely doubt that's restricted to Italy. Sounds like common sense to me.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA, yes well your right, but I live in Holland right now, (only 2 more weeks left) and guys here aren't sharp enough to think of this type of thing, nor do they even have the desire to, they are too busy sitting around drinking beer and wearing shirts that only gay guys in america wear to think about the complications involved with getting more than 1 girlfriend. Besides most girls have a hard time being impressed by a dutch guy, with them always asking girls to pay half the bill on a date the guy asked her for. In america we even had a word for it called "Go Dutch"
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Is this (http://www.cafepress.com/buy/pride/-/pv_design_prod/pg_1/p_storeid.51117237/pNo_51117237/id_10361511/opt_/fpt_/c_360/) the shirt you're talking about? :lol:
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Heheheheh, not exactly, its just more like a tight fitting pink shirt, jeans and some expensive leather shoes with a paper thin sole on them and a stripe. Its very important what brand it is, even though its all made in the same chinese sweatshop anyway. The thing here is its not gay guys who dress like that, its just he "Normal" Dutch guys, but if they came to my neighborhood in Staten Island, they would be subjected to alot of shit talking and maybe even a possible beating. Actually they would be shocked to find out how politically incorrect most parts of NY outside manhattan are.
They want to think its some kind of tolerant sunshine and gumdrop land like they see on TV.
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Accusing Nederlanders of being misers is not a US-only phenomenon. Everyone thinks the Dutch are tight.
Actually it has a historical reason. Holland, as it then was, was an early pioneer of trade. More aristocratic countries like France and Britain looked down upon trade as beneath them. Such a view was particularly prominent in Catholic countries where the crown tended to have a grater grip on power. The Huguenots were France's best craftspeople and, as a result, traders. Until they were all kicked out.
Even in Protestant England the conflict existed, though. The aristocratic Tories (conservatives) relied upon land as both capital and surplus value whereas the Whigs (liberals) tended toward trade. "Trade" was an insult flung as people like Captain Vancouver, for example, because of his familial background. Traders were considered to be money grubbing, petit bourgeois bastards—and not without reason.
I never thought any of this would come up in a discussion about the PC Engine. See—the moral panickers in the 80s were wrong: games don't make you stupid.
A friend of mine is married to a Dutch person. I think she might be a bit of a miser. Mind you, he's a lazy, waste monkey.
There could be a correlation between the clothing and the monogamy. Who knows...
They're also famous for tiny beers with huge heads and bland food. Still, I like the Netherlands. Are you working there or just loafing around?
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I was studying at business school here. International Business and Management
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I was studying at business school here. International Business and Management
I see. Trade!
Arf, arf. Seventeenth century insults—whatever next? "A pox on you, Sir!"
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Oh yeah, don't even get me started about the food here.
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You mean you don't like tasteless, rubbery cheese?
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From living here, I can tel you this is the worst country in Europe I have ever been to. Except for maybe bulgaria.
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You know whats funny, is they brag about how "Multicultural" they are, and yet none of them have any culture themselves (Or are so preoccupied with somebody elses) . They have the shittiest food I have ever tasted in europe, and im not just talking about Dutch food, they manage to f*ck up every other type of food they decide to copy.
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Well, a friend of mine swears by bitter ballen. How amusing that sounds to my ears...
Swing by Belgium. The Wallonian food is good. French influence.
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Well, a friend of mine swears by bitter ballen. How amusing that sounds to my ears...
Swing by Belgium. The Wallonian food is good. French influence.
Actually I already did that, I went to Brugge, it was Great! But here, oooo noo, just a bunch of barbarians.
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Barbarians might be a bit strong but Dutch politics is a mess. They fancy themselves as liberal but they're not really. Actually they're just super permissive conservatives. You can do what you like as long as you stay out of their pockets. If there's money to be made publishing Sadistic Rape Monthly someone in Holland will do it. That doesn't necessarily make you liberal.
Or perhaps it does, but it certainly doesn't make you left wing. Maybe the Dutch are right and the US meaning of liberalism should be expunged from political discourse because it confuses thing so badly.
I also find it hilarious that they're complaining about nasty non-liberal foreigners messing-up their multi-cultural society. Liberals against immigration—priceless.
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Thats the Irony of it, All the feminists in holland claim to feel for the oppressed muslims, but when the "Oppressed Muslims" become numerous enough, its not gonna be any more "Sex and the city" on TV and women saying "I can do what I want" Nope, just a trembling, scared little girl with a black eye. Just some turks bitch. HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Let's not forget, when the Dutch rule the world CD-I will be the only games console permitted. Luckily there will be some great Zelda and Mario games for it...
Enough. I quite like Holland and here I am slagging an entire country off. Tut, tut.
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HAHAHA CDI is the console equivelent of dutch food.
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I quite like Holland and here I am slagging an entire country off. Tut, tut.
What ive noticed is that everybody likes holland who doesnt live there, it has a very big reputation, but it all depends on what kind of person you are whether you will like living here or not. The Dutch claim many things they are, which they are not, they say one thing and do another, they often contradict themselves alot too. For a guy like me who is from a very different world than the one the dutch live in, its hard to adjust.
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On the food front, the country I'm from is pretty grim. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good restaurants but there's no real native food or food culture.
There is also too much Italian and pseudo-Italian food (particularly the latter). Italian food has usurped French food as the ultimate in cooking. I can only assume this is because people can make half-arsed pseudo-Italian food at home whereas French food is considered too complicated.
The same thing is happening with European wine vs. New World wine, where people are avoiding European wine in favour of New World because they want to know what grape type is used in a wine—as if they can tell anything much from grape type or it's somehow easier to understand than terroir.
Current debates in France about whether or not the French have lost it, French food outside of France is on the whole superior to Italian food outside of Italy. Most "Italian" food in Europe is just dull pasta dishes. Part of my family is of Italian (and Wallonian) extraction and I grew up eating a lot of Italian food. I am, I have to be honest, a bit bored with it but more than that I am sick of the middlebrow crap that is presented as Italian food in most of Europe.
Unfortunately, such is its culinary dominance that French restaurants are now confined mostly to the expensive and super-expensive end of the market and I can't afford that very often. In France you can get great food for very little money.
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What ive noticed is that everybody likes holland who doesnt live there, it has a very big reputation, but it all depends on what kind of person you are whether you will like living here or not. The Dutch claim many things they are, which they are not, they say one thing and do another, they often contradict themselves alot too. For a guy like me who is from a very different world than the one the dutch live in, its hard to adjust.
That's probably true of anywhere. I'm sure I'd find the US baffling in a way I don't find most of Europe. Despite coming from a (mostly) Anglophone country I even find England rather different from what I'm used to.
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People seem to go through stages when they live somewhere else. (Basically, culture shock.)
1. Everything is new and exotic, wow!
2. The novelty wears off, and all the little different things that used to be exotic is now an annoyance.
3. After awhile, you sorta settle in, realize things are just the way they are, and don't really need an explanation WHY everything is works the way they do.
It's in your best interest to get to #3 as quickly as possible, but a lotta people never seem to get out of #2, and get the hell out of Dodge ASAP -- I've seen it happen soooo many times...
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People seem to go through stages when they live somewhere else. (Basically, culture shock.)
1. Everything is new and exotic, wow!
2. The novelty wears off, and all the little different things that used to be exotic is now an annoyance.
3. After awhile, you sorta settle in, realize things are just the way they are, and don't really need an explanation WHY everything is works the way they do.
It's in your best interest to get to #3 as quickly as possible, but a lotta people never seem to get out of #2, and get the hell out of Dodge ASAP -- I've seen it happen soooo many times...
Absolutely, for me growing up in an Italian neighborhood for most of my young life, made me really appreciate food and be very critical of it, my whole family is like this and we weren't exactly the wonderbread and kool-aid type of americans, so pretty much anywhere I go, im very observant of the food, and just to give you an example of my culinary critique take a look at this:
(http://annagroot.punt.nl/upload/frikandel-log.jpg)
now the dutch word for this is a food item called "Frikandel". The tri-state area's word for this would be "A piece of dog shit in a mailbox"
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YES.. im afraid its....
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Yeah... :P I myself am at #2 right now (I'm in Calgary). Slowly crossing over to #3, but the terrible thing is that I completely skipped #1 and went right to #2 -- as in, nothing here was new or interesting!
Wait... In that case, maybe it's not so much culture shock - Calgary just sucks! :-s
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On the food front, the country I'm from is pretty grim.
What country might that be then?
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Tír na nÓg Ireland
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You know I went to a Catholic school that was run by Irish nuns, not Irish-American ones, but real ones right from ireland. The mother superior was named "Ursula Doherty". They were very strict but actualy very nice old ladies.
Actually there is alot of Irish people where im from, staten island is about 15% Irish, they own alot of bars along one of the main streets in staten island, alot of them sit and get piss drunk and stagger out the bars later at around 2 am. Most of them are very happy drunks though.
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Most of them are very happy drunks though.
Those are the ones that are gettin' da ass...
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God bless the Irish. I have Irish blood and so damn proud, I could care less about what other ethnicities are in me.
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You damn Irish are all the same. I bet you're extremely pale, too.
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I am extremely pale! Most people say I'm the whitest person they know. Please don't say I'm a drunk though because that stereotype sucks.
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Naw, you're too young. Give it another year or two. :wink:
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I used to drink hard liquor for a year straight from 16-17, but I quit that shit. Drinking is a waste of life.
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Many, but not all of the Irish I knew liked to drink. Its not just a stereotype though, recently I read a study that Ireland has the highest rate of binge drinking in europe, around 22% of young people, If I recall england and other countries up there also rank high. The lowest was Italy and Greece with around 2%. I worked in a nightclub in Athens and I indeed saw very few people get really drunk. The Irish nun I had in school used to get really pissed about this Irish like to drink stereotype, but she was a nun and did not drink a single drop of alcohol.
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Here's a great page dealing with Irish discrimination (http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html).
I don't mean to turn this thread around, but I really do think Irish stereotypes are junk. People may not see any harm in calling an Irish a drunk, but it can. Just imagine my brother, who has recovered from strong alcoholism over the past couple of years, if he was talking to someone and he found out my brother was Irish and started ragging him on about drinking, which is probably the last thing my brother would want to hear. I just really hate to see how it seems so acceptable to say Irish stereotypes on TV and such. Don't even get me started on Muslim stereotypes.
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Let's not get carried away here. But, yes, drunken Irish is a stereotype. So is drunken Finns and drunken Norwegians. I think the British make more top of the class A grade angry drunks than anyone else, but that's still a stereotype
Besides, I've always felt that Americans can't hold their drink—at least the ones I've met. I suspect that most Europeans drink more, though America is so vast there are, I'm sure, huge differences in attitudes to alcohol.
PS Irishness is not an ethnicity, it's a nationality.
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PS Irishness is not an ethnicity, it's a nationality.
Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity. I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc. We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.
I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic. Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face. And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.
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Many, but not all of the Irish I knew liked to drink. Its not just a stereotype though, recently I read a study that Ireland has the highest rate of binge drinking in europe, around 22% of young people, If I recall england and other countries up there also rank high. The lowest was Italy and Greece with around 2%. I worked in a nightclub in Athens and I indeed saw very few people get really drunk. The Irish nun I had in school used to get really pissed about this Irish like to drink stereotype, but she was a nun and did not drink a single drop of alcohol.
You do realise that binge drinking is complete nonsense, don't you? The government statistics are ridiculous. Two glasses of wine with your dinner and you're a so-called "binge drinker".
Moreover, the methodology is faulty. There is no internationally recongised as to what constitutes a ‘binge’. The UK minimum definition, for example, is 'more than six units of alcohol on a single occasion'—that's two pints of beer.
According to the WHO Luxembourg has the highest consumption of units of alcohol per head, not Ireland. In fact, dear old Luxy has the highest per capita consumption in the world. For such a small country they certainly know how to put it away. Where is the moralising and hand-wringing of the drunken Luxembourgeois? The Czech Republic is second, Ireland is third and France is fourth.
Countries with "above average" consumption include Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, France, Ireland, Spain, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Slovakia and Moldova. Given that that is most of Europe it does rather beg the question: what the hell does "above average" actually mean?
Not very much, I would suggest. Could it be that such, cough, "European" countries as Turkmenistan, Armenia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgystan and Kazakstan (which were included in the report for some reason) that happen to have Muslim majorities are actually distorting the average by dragging it down? Heaven forbid!
Also, many of those "studies" come from dubious think tanks and charities. One recent one made the headlines in Britain. It later turned out that it was from a group founded by the Salvation Army whose current head is a devout Muslim. Hardly the people I'd ask to do a study on alcohol.
Even the WHO is less than impartial.
Meanwhile, the British government has recently come out saying that pregnant women shouldn't drink at all. I'm aware that middle America has long been used to thinking of pregnant women as disabled and wrapping them up in cotton wool, but such an attitude is unheard of in Europe. Or rather it was until now.
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Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity. I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc. We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.
I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic. Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face. And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.
Any person of Moroccan descent born in Holland is Dutch. End of story. He can call himself Moroccan or of Moroccan descent if he wants, but he is primarily Dutch.
However, that's not my point. Irish people—actual Irish people in Ireland—would be offended if you told them they were ethnically distinct from other Europeans. Ireland is a country and a nation and it has a culture, but that's it.
I think the difference here is that you are American and I am European and we think about these things in different ways.
By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference.
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Many, but not all of the Irish I knew liked to drink. Its not just a stereotype though, recently I read a study that Ireland has the highest rate of binge drinking in europe, around 22% of young people, If I recall england and other countries up there also rank high. The lowest was Italy and Greece with around 2%. I worked in a nightclub in Athens and I indeed saw very few people get really drunk. The Irish nun I had in school used to get really pissed about this Irish like to drink stereotype, but she was a nun and did not drink a single drop of alcohol.
You do realise that binge drinking is complete nonsense, don't you? The government statistics are ridiculous. Two glasses of wine with your dinner and you're a so-clled "binge drinker".
Moreover, the methodology is faulty. There is no internationally recongised as to what constitutes a ‘binge’. The UK minimum definition, for example, is 'more than six units of alcohol on a single occasion'—that's two pints of beer.
According to the WHO Luxembourg has the highest consumption of units of alcohol per head, not Ireland. In fact, dear old Luxy has the highest per capita consumption in the world. For such a small country they certainly know how to put it away. Where is the moralising and hand-wringing of the drunken Luxembourgeois? The Czech Republic is second, Ireland is third and France is fourth.
Countries with "above average" consumption include Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, France, Ireland, Spain, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Slovakia and Moldova. Given that that is most of Europe it does rather beg the question: what the hell does "above average" actually mean?
Not very much, I would suggest. Could it be that such, cough, "European" countries as Turkmenistan, Armenia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgystan and Kazakstan (which were included in the report for some reason) that happen to have Muslim majorities are actually distorting the average by dragging it down? Heaven forbid!
Also, many of those "studies" come from dubious think tanks and charities. One recent one made the headlines in Britain. It later turned out that it was from a group founded by the Salvation Army whose current head is a devout Muslim. Hardly the people I'd ask to do a study on alcohol.
Even the WHO is less than impartial.
Meanwhile, the British government has recently come out saying that pregnant women shouldn't drink at all. I'm aware that middle America has long been used to thinking of pregnant women as disabled and wrapping them up in cotton wool, but such an attitude is unheard of in Europe. Or rather it was until now.
Yeah, I think your right, but I based what I said more on my personal experiences with Irish people, It may very well be true that they are not the top drinkers in europe and its all bullshit. But one thing I was always certain of is that they can drink much more than I can, and can function much better than I can after drinking as a general rule.
I had a girlfriend in high school who was from belfast, and she did not drink much at all, but she told me many of them do drink there.
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I'm not saying Irish people don't drink. They certainly do on the whole and they're definitely in the top ten in Europe, no doubt about that. It's just that it's all so subjective. Americans seem to drink so little. It's doubtlessly a cultural difference.
The legal age being 21 in some (most?) US states seems laughable to us. And it won't work.
Anyway, I have to go out for a while. Will resume later.
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Explain how Irishness is not an ethnicity. I was just wondering this, because where im from, we always viewed the Irish as an ethnic group, just as Italians, Greeks, Germans etc. We all spoke english and it was just assumed we are americans, but we still did not forget about where we came from, unlike many people in other parts of America.
I mean I never understood how the dutch for example, could call a morrocan "Dutch" it seems only they are stupid enough to believe in such logic. Just to give you an example of what I mean, If I walked around Holland and happened to have been born in china and spoke fluent chinese, went around here telling people I was chinese, they would all laugh in my face. And yet, when some Morrocan or Turk calls himself "Dutch" because he was born in Holland, they look at him with a straight face, and take it very seriously.
Any person of Moroccan descent born in Holland is Dutch. End of story. He can call himself Moroccan or of Moroccan descent if he wants, but he is primarily Dutch.
However, that's not my point. Irish people—actual Irish people in Ireland—would be offended if you told them they were ethnically distinct from other Europeans. Ireland is a country and a nation and it has a culture, but that's it.
I think the difference here is that you are American and I am European and we think about these things in different ways.
By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference.
No, its got nothing to do with american or european, its got to do with common sense and understanding the old meaning of the word nation, versus the modern "Politically Correct" word for Nation. I lived in Greece and there people viewed Albanians and others with Greek passports as "Albanians" pure and simple. The primary reason the Dutch for example feel the overwhelming need to call morrocans dutch is because they have guilt complexes about the colonies and foreign peoples they exploited, whereas in Greece they had no such history like this, so the calling somebody what they actually are is not associated with any kind of racism or predjudice, just common sense.
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Well what is your definition of nation?
One last thing I'll say: beware of priests. Regardless of whether they're actual priests or political or medical authorities delivering moral lectures, they're all full of shit.
Gotta go.
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I can help answer your question
"By the same token, the way Americans define "Hispanics" as being non-white baffles Europeans. It does seem like racism to us. I'm not saying it is, it just comes across this way. A sort of unnecessary stressing of difference."
The Spanish are just like any other europeans, but in America, real Spanish descended people are really rare, there are however many people who are a mix of spanish and the original native peoples of mexico, and the puerto ricans who are a mix of spanish and africans. They all speak spanish, and so this is how the term "Hispanic" was coined, and this is why people in america associate "Spanish" or "Hispanic" with non white.
Now as for the definition of nation, what MY definition is really irrelevant because I did not invent the word, I just know the root meaning of the word. It is rooted in the Latin word meaning "Birth" which meant at that time a people related by common blood or ancestry. Cicero used the word in this way in 44 BC:
"Omnes nationes servitutem ferre possunt: nostra civitas non potest."
("All races are able to bear enslavement, but our community cannot.")
Now, this is where the problem comes in, because the American idea that "If you were born here, your one of us" has made its way into western europe, particularly countries that had a history of exploitation of other peoples. The reason for this is because they have such a guilt complex about thier own ethnic identity and national history, that they are terrified of insulting a Morrocan or Pakistan among them by calling them "Morrocan" or "Pakistan".
In most of eastern and southern europe, no guilt complex exists like this, so ethnic minorities are called what they are based on where they come from, regardless of where they were born, the meaning of the word nation had not been altered for the sake of political correctness.
Now, in my case I am an American of Greek, and a small amount of Italian ancestry, I grew up in a neighborhood where all of us were descended from immigration to Ellis Island, which is where many Irish and others also came in. And as a result, we always felt different than the other Americans outside the city. If I am talking with somebody from my area about somebody else, for example "Anthony" I would say "Anthony's Italian" I wouldnt say "Anthony Is american" because he is American by default simply because he was born in america and speaks english. We dont refer to each other as "Americans" where I am from.
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Here's a great page dealing with Irish discrimination (http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html).
I don't mean to turn this thread around, but I really do think Irish stereotypes are junk. People may not see any harm in calling an Irish a drunk, but it can. Just imagine my brother, who has recovered from strong alcoholism over the past couple of years, if he was talking to someone and he found out my brother was Irish and started ragging him on about drinking, which is probably the last thing my brother would want to hear. I just really hate to see how it seems so acceptable to say Irish stereotypes on TV and such. Don't even get me started on Muslim stereotypes.
I don't even think that the people stereotyping Muslims even get that specific. The have a problem with anyone they think looks a-rab.
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Here's a great page dealing with Irish discrimination (http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html).
I don't mean to turn this thread around, but I really do think Irish stereotypes are junk. People may not see any harm in calling an Irish a drunk, but it can. Just imagine my brother, who has recovered from strong alcoholism over the past couple of years, if he was talking to someone and he found out my brother was Irish and started ragging him on about drinking, which is probably the last thing my brother would want to hear. I just really hate to see how it seems so acceptable to say Irish stereotypes on TV and such. Don't even get me started on Muslim stereotypes.
I don't even think that the people stereotyping Muslims even get that specific. The have a problem with anyone they think looks a-rab.
The problem here in western Europe is simple, they piss and moan about what the muslims are doing, when its nobodys fault but their own. Last time I checked, Holland was not on the border of Morroco, THEY Let them in, and THEY wanted to exploit them for cheap labor. and THEY were the ones who years ago told anybody who was concerned about the possible cultural friction that may result to Shut the f*ck up.
I really honestly don't have a problem with the Muslims, because they are not the root of the problem as far as im concerned. If the Dutch want to blame somebody for their problems, all they have to do, is look in the mirror.
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I do find it weird that people who group by ethnicity have so many distinctions for so-called darker races, but throw together such a huge variety of cultures and different physical traits under the label of "white".
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I do find it weird that people who group by ethnicity have so many distinctions for so-called darker races, but throw together such a huge variety of cultures and different physical traits under the label of "white".
Yeah personally I don't like the term "White" just as many "Black" people don't like the term "Black" and prefer "African American" or such things. To me "White" is far too general a term, and frankly I don't want to be associated with being simply "White". I have about as much in common culturally with some american "White" people as I do an eskimo, actually I probably have more in common with the eskimo, because the eskimo still has a cultural idenity, whereas many "White" americans have none.
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Wow, thread is pretty derailed, haha.
Chiming in to say a bit about drinking.
A person's background, and their family background, can play a part in how their body handles drink (along with social situation, body build, etc). About the age of 6 or so my grandfather gave me my first sip of Cognac.... haha. I was asking about a drinking set he had, and he decided to let me have a taste. With his background, letting a 6 year-old have a sip of Cognac wasn't a big deal. I recall the Cognac bruning my mouth, that stuck with me.
I'm not a heavy person, that seems to be the the biggest factor in how much I can drink in an hour and keep most of my bearings.
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Too much to respond to above in the time I have right now (gotta go out again). A couple of quick points:
There is a lot of confusion about the different meanings of country (the land within the borders and, arguably, its people), the state (a country's political apparatus) and the nation (a primarily cultural entity based on descent that can span national borders). The terms are not interchangeable.
Nevertheless, if you are born somewhere and take on that place's culture, then you are a member of that nation. I would say that that is the mainstream European view. If people segregate themselves—as distinct from being segregated by the society they live in, an entirely different matter—then there is clearly a problem and Europe has certainly seen some of that.
Overall, the concept of the nation is not particularly helpful today. If you've got citizenship then that is all that should matter. This is not a particularly US view.
Greece is often considered quite a racist country by some Europeans. I know nothing about Greece and that perception in itself could be nothing more than prejudice—lazy-minded Northern European contempt for Southern Europeans. However, viewing someone whose parent were born outside of the country as foreign is not common in much of Europe and it's not political correctness that has informed this. If you are born somewhere then that's where you're from. This doesn't preclude multiple identities.
One problem is that while multiculturalism was well-meaning it, like all post-modern theories, refuses to make qualitative judgements and argues that no culture is superior to another. As a result it actually promotes difference. All identity politics do this. They're bogus and divisive by their very nature.
Immigration is not a problem everywhere in Europe. Some people, such as myself, are all in favour of it. However, I also demand a secular, humanist state and have no truck with religious nonsense. The French so-called "ban" on religious iconography in school seems perfectly sensible to me.
Where there is an immigration problem it is partly as a result of what you say. However, there are other issues. France, for example, has failed to live up to its republicanism by stuffing people into the banlieiux and then forgetting about them, happily discriminating against them and their descendants. Similarly, Germany's fear of Turks is rooted in Germany's own failures.
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Perhaps you could care to explain how Greece is Racist, and countries like England, Holland and France are not?
In my opinion Greece is a country that is very traditional and has carried on many traditions and ideas much longer than many western european countries have been around. Are the Japanese racist because they dont consider korean immigrants Japanese?
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"Germany's fear of Turks is rooted in Germany's own failures."
What about Greece and the rest of the balkans fear of turks, what failures brought that on?
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I didn't say it is. I said there is that perception. I also said that that was probably a prejudice in itself. In fact, there are a lot of Northern European prejudices about Southern Europe—even within countries, viz. Italy.
Also, are we talking at cross purposes here? I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about their children.
Japan certainly has a reputation for racism, deserved or otherwise. At some points in its history it was one of the most xenophobic cultures on the face of the planet. Consider the Edo period. I have no idea if any of this still plays out today but I do know that there is a xenophobic right wing fringe that exerts political pressure beyond its numbers over issues like war memorials etc. There are also figures like Mishima in recent history.
Edit: And yes, the Japanese have been racist toward Koreans.
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What about Greece and the rest of the balkans fear of turks, what failures brought that on?
Thousands of years of history? What about the French?
Nevertheless, the German situation is distinct.
Good article on Turkey and the EU:
Taking it out on Turkey
The tortured discussion about the Turks joining the EU is a product of crises in the West more than the East.
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAD8A. htm
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Be more specific though, the entire population of the balkans and some areas up unto romania and such, all managed to fail? Im really just curious to hear a western europeans viewpoint on this thats all.
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No, and I know nothing about the situation re Turks in the Balkans. Nor have I claimed to. You're putting words in my mouth talking about the Balkans and failure. My point was about the failures of the modern German state, not any Balkan state or its people. I was offering the German situation as an example of how to not handle immigration.
Germany's problem, however, is rooted in Germany using Turkish guest workers to do things on the cheap while failing to integrate the Turkish population properly into German life. This stuff is well-documented. It has nothing to do with Turkey and everything to do with Germany.
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No, and I know nothing about the situation re Turks in the Balkans. Nor have I claimed to.
Germany's problem, however, is rooted in Germany using Turkish guest workers to do things on the cheap while failing to integrate the Turkish population properly into German life. This stuff is well-documented. It has nothing to do with Turkey and everything to do with Germany.
I think its more a failure of understanding the principals of human nature. If you have a culture that you love, that belongs to you, you are less likely to give up that culture no matter where you live. If you have no culture, don't think your culture is worth much, or think that your culture is in fact "Multicultural" than you are going to be more open to the idea of integration. Turks as a whole never integrated with anyone they came in contact with, but now western europeans think they will integrate them, regardless of what the history shows.
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So how about that PC Engine, eh? A fine piece of hardware to be sure. :)
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Hahaha, yeah I guess you dont want to think about that up there in sweden eh?
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PS Irishness is not an ethnicity, it's a nationality.
Try looking up a definition for ethnicity. Ethnicity is a social construct of people who share similar cultural traits (language, dress, religion, etc.) as well as common ancestry. How does this not apply to being Irish?
The Netherlands are f'n great. It's easily the best place on earth to stick you finger in some dykes.
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"The Irish are a European ethnic group who originated in Ireland"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people
"Only place you can get your fingers... some dyke."
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How does this not apply to being Irish?
Because most western european socialist types, are concerned about the rights of indigenous peoples in places like tibet, or some other place very far off. The idea that europeans can be indigenous peoples of europe does not really sit to well with them, because they associate having an ethnic identity with racism (unless your from some non european country).
As to what I believe, I believe in the rights of indigenous peoples everywhere, not just in tibet or places like that. I was born in the united states of america, im an American citizen, but where I and Walsh disagree is that I think the only true americans are the native american indians, I can be a citizen of the united states of america, but never a true american like them because they are indigenous, and I am not.
In Holland, native dutch children are not taught about their ancestors or where they come from, because they would conflict with the socialist plans, the idea is for them to forget their history so they dont see any cultural differences between them and others.
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As to what I believe, I believe in the rights of indigenous peoples everywhere, not just in tibet or places like that. I was born in the united states of america, im an American citizen, but where I and Walsh disagree is that I think the only true americans are the native american indians, I can be a citizen of the united states of america, but never a true american like them because they are indigenous, and I am not.
Believe what you wish, but this sounds a little fruitcakey to me. Native Americans have been here longer, but they didn't climb out of the primordial ooze and land on the good ol' USA - they migrated here from somewhere else. How many years does it take to qualify as 'indigenous'? Probably more than the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
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No thats true, they came over the land bridge from asia that used to exist I heard, but they are in fact the original people to settle the area, at least thats what we know at this point. But the point I was trying to make with that is that I think people should respect locals and traditions, and people should also try not to deny the nature of people and avoid inconvenient facts which do not fit into the fantasy utopia world they idealize.
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As to what I believe, I believe in the rights of indigenous peoples everywhere, not just in tibet or places like that. I was born in the united states of america, im an American citizen, but where I and Walsh disagree is that I think the only true americans are the native american indians, I can be a citizen of the united states of america, but never a true american like them because they are indigenous, and I am not.
Believe what you wish, but this sounds a little fruitcakey to me.
Actually when people here in are ranting and raving about the rights of indigenous peoples in tibet or somwhere else they never will go, I find that rather fruitcakey because meanwhile some "Indigenous" dutch school kid (And no im not making this up, I know 2 kids this happened to being here 8 months) is getting robbed at knifepoint by a gang of five or so turks. They would rather sweep shit like that under the rug and forget about it, mogadishu and tibet are so much more important.
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That certainly is fruitcakey. Some shit is just wrong, regardless of which set of douche bags did the shitting or which person was shit on. Although, sometimes race / ethnicity / whatchamacallit has nothing to do with it. If I'm robbed by three purple dudes, it was likely because I had money and not because I'm white (purple 'cause I'm PC, bitches).
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No, its not cause they are white, its because they are arrogant and think everybody thinks just like them.
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How does this not apply to being Irish?
"Irish need not apply." :evil:
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We should close the forums to anyone except Golologologologo13 and Joe M. Walsh between midnight and 4:00am. That way, we can have four new pages of messages to read every day!
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I love the assumptions that people make about other countries without ever actually having lived there. When you actually live there, you'll realize many common beliefs are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo f*cking far from the truth.
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I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out of this debate. It's not the place for it and I apologise for my part in creating and sustaining it.
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I only just read this thread, but contrary to what folks have suggested, "ethnicity" is an attribute of all groups within a society / culture. Yes, we often are blind to the ethnicity of the dominant culture, especially if we are a part of the dominant culture, but "ethnicity" doesn't simply vanish.
------ Back on track -----------
You folks didn't mention that "TurboGrafx" was a gray-market item in Europe! This fact was confirmed recently (1-2 years ago) by John Greiner at Hudson. I tried to find my old thread at the Hudson Forums, but they must have gotten rid of it. :(
But, to get to back to the original question: from a marketing standpoint, it makes sense for Hudson (and Nintendo) to use "TurboGrafx" in Europe since all of the North American English-language media / resources have used "TurboGrafx-16" consistently since the console was released here in the States and now Hudson wants to build on this name recognition. Why confuse matters by using "PC Engine" in Austrialia / EU / UK when most print- / online- media use another name?
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It wasn't really confirmed. That guy confused the actual PC Engine with the TG, and we already knew what he said.
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It wasn't really confirmed. That guy confused the actual PC Engine with the TG, and we already knew what he said.
Aha! Thanks for clarifying that. So, we're back to square one as far as TurboGrafx PAL is concerned? Goddam, that's annoying.
Did you buy one, Seldane? Maybe we can examine the documentation / packaging / power requirements on AC adapter to get some clues as to where it was being marketed?
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I did not buy one, no. But I still intend to. :P Damn it for being so expensive though. When/if I buy one, I will make sure to put ALL the info I can find online.