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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: guyjin on October 04, 2007, 11:49:38 AM
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The 'one laptop per child' computer seems to have finally arrived.
http://www.xogiving.org/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/technology/circuits/04pogue.html?em&ex=1191643200&en=54a7e1d4ece85192&ei=5087%0A
the review makes it sound interesting to me - i need to get back into programming, and being able to rewrite programs as easily as they say you can sounds ideal. I'm willing to deal with the limitations, especially since I already have a DS for gaming.
Your thoughts?
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I'm not, but it would be interesting to take one apart and see what sorts of mods you can apply to this thing. Anyone remember the Netpliance I-Opener?
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I think that you have gone loco, my good sir. You could do more with the iPaq internet appliance.
You could even do more on Intellivison (http://intyos.free.fr/)
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You could even do more on Intellivison (http://intyos.free.fr/)
No. You couldn't. The Intelevison barely has enough memory to contain most of the emails I send.
The $100 laptop is really appealing to a lot of people, and I have to agree that its cool looking. The fact that its so interesting to people who already have iBooks, and Thinkpads really says more about how boring your average laptop is though than anything else.
I really doubt I'd get much use out of one, personally, and sadly I have to wonder if the target audience will either. I hope they do, I just wonder if it isn't all money better spent in other areas.
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No. You couldn't. The Intelevison barely has enough memory to contain most of the emails I send.
Then either:
1. You fail to get your point across efficiently.
or
2. You're one of those annoying "RE:RE:RE:RE:FW:FW:FW:FW:LOL FUNNY VIDEO SEND TO 10 PEOPLE" people.
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I really doubt I'd get much use out of one, personally, and sadly I have to wonder if the target audience will either. I hope they do, I just wonder if it isn't all money better spent in other areas.
Yeah, rather than providing a luxury item, donations should be pooled to provide something important like decent water filters.
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I agree with Rolins. I think that its a waste of time and money that could be used for better things. Seriously, all we need is for those little poor kids to be looking at pron, lol.
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Rolins is 100% correct. A laptop is worthless without the infrastructure to support it anyway, and I'm pretty sure that most of the kids that get one would rather have shoes and a sandwich. It remains a mystery why anyone in the US would be interested in a 433mhz, 256MB, 7.5" LCD laptop - other than as a way to show everyone what a good person you are.
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Yes, people need clean water, and food, and toilets, and shoes, and a roof over their head, and lots of other things.
but education helps them get these things for themselves. And in the 21st century, that really does require a computer.
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I agree with guyjin, you can give free food and clothes to these people for eternity and nothing will ever change, but educate the young generation with something like this and in 10-20 years they will be adults and most likely working to improve their situations.
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I agree with guyjin, you can give free food and clothes to these people for eternity and nothing will ever change, but educate the young generation with something like this and in 10-20 years they will be adults and most likely working to improve their situations.
Or playing Daggerfall in Swahili.
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Rolins is 100% correct. A laptop is worthless without the infrastructure to support it anyway, and I'm pretty sure that most of the kids that get one would rather have shoes and a sandwich. It remains a mystery why anyone in the US would be interested in a 433mhz, 256MB, 7.5" LCD laptop - other than as a way to show everyone what a good person you are.
I think that there are some very very interesting things mentioned in the article...
- Mesh networking = built in internet infrastructure
- Mechanical pull-cord charger = battery charging in the poorest of countries
- Solar panel = charging in poor desert countries
- Efficiently programmed software that doen't require massive technical specs (perish the thought)
It seems like a very good idea. One point raised in the article is that some governments may not be interested in it because it is seen as a "low-end" machine, so political arrogance and chest thumping may be barriers, but to me this laptop seems like a sensible option to start levelling the playing field for many poor countries and communities.
Any communications type tool like this computer can make a difference.
To me, the best use of it seems to be as a way to make computer technology more widespread in places where funds are not available to build the infrastructure necessary to support higher-end machines at this point in time.
I voted "probably" because I think it's a good idea! My concerns about the machine are upgradeability and whether or not it has USB ports.
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The idea is just idiotic to me. There are just going to be more countries pulling internet scams like those Nigerian bastards. Don't you guys watch the news?
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I voted "probably" because I think it's a good idea! My concerns about the machine are upgradeability and whether or not it has USB ports.
I went to the homepage and found that they have actually posted technical specs:
http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml
The laptop has 3 USB 2.0 ports, which was a concern of mine.
I'm inching closer to definitely.
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Yes, people need clean water, and food, and toilets, and shoes, and a roof over their head, and lots of other things.
but education helps them get these things for themselves. And in the 21st century, that really does require a computer.
This is quite possibly the most foolish thing that I've read in weeks. Basic educational needs are easily met with traditional methods. Don't intimate that it's required / easier to learn to read from a screen than it is from a piece of paper, that typing is more important than hand writing, or that basic math is best learned by using a calculator.
- Mesh networking = built in internet infrastructure
Not quite. That's built-in networking between machines, and not a connection to the internet.
To me, the best use of it seems to be as a way to make computer technology more widespread in places where funds are not available to build the infrastructure necessary to support higher-end machines at this point in time.
That was kinda the point in my previous post. Infrastructure is absolutely necessary, regardless of how powerful the connected computers are. Who will provide the connection to the internet or at least a neighboring village? Who will teach people how to use these laptops? Who will maintain them? These laptops would be most useful as digital textbooks, but who will provide the .pdf textbooks?
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This is quite possibly the most foolish thing that I've read in weeks. Basic educational needs are easily met with traditional methods. Don't intimate that it's required / easier to learn to read from a screen than it is from a piece of paper, that typing is more important than hand writing, or that basic math is best learned by using a calculator.
Well, if "basic educational needs" have nothing to do with computers, you're probably right...
But I think the idea with the laptop program is to make computer technology more accessible and fascilitate computer-based learning.
Not quite. That's built-in networking between machines, and not a connection to the internet.
You're right, but what I meant was that a large amount of infrastructure is built in to the machines themselves. You're right that a connection to the internet is still required but one connection to the internet can connect many machines at once due to the built in infrastructure of mesh networking.
I think that it makes sense as a cost-cutting measure.
That was kinda the point in my previous post. Infrastructure is absolutely necessary, regardless of how powerful the connected computers are. Who will provide the connection to the internet or at least a neighboring village? Who will teach people how to use these laptops? Who will maintain them? These laptops would be most useful as digital textbooks, but who will provide the .pdf textbooks?
These are all excellent questions.
I just started looking at all this today... but it looks like they are committed to making the machine open-source, so that anyone can provide .pdf textbooks or whatever else.
As far as developing maintenance / technician infrastructure, that's a great point. I think that any government that looking seriously at buying the XO machine is asking the same question, especially as big companies like intel try to sell their own versions of affordable laptops. I found this article (http://wiki.laptop.org/images/5/57/Which_laptop_per_child_Technology_Guardian_Unlimited_Tec...pdf) to be very interesting in terms of competition for the XO.
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I don't see why they say Intel is damaging their scheme. Intel is just after the same thing; selling cheapo laptops to poor dumb people who don't know any better. Seriously, I could build a way faster computer from parts for the cost of one of those pos laptops. How can anyone bare to use a comp that is under 1 ghz? lol. These companies will make big profits if their scheme is successful. The parts in those laptops have no cash value these days.
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I don't see why they say Intel is damaging their scheme. Intel is just after the same thing; selling cheapo laptops to poor dumb people who don't know any better. Seriously, I could build a way faster computer from parts for the cost of one of those pos laptops. How can anyone bare to use a comp that is under 1 ghz? lol. These companies will make big profits if their scheme is successful. The parts in those laptops have no cash value these days.
You are such a goddamn idiot.
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I don't see why they say Intel is damaging their scheme. Intel is just after the same thing; selling cheapo laptops to poor dumb people who don't know any better. Seriously, I could build a way faster computer from parts for the cost of one of those pos laptops. How can anyone bare to use a comp that is under 1 ghz? lol. These companies will make big profits if their scheme is successful. The parts in those laptops have no cash value these days.
Turbo... Intel is a for-profit corporation while OLPC (one laptop per child) is non-profit....
You're right that tech-savvy people here can build better computers for the same or less cost, but can you provide home-made laptops in the kinds of numbers that OLPC is shooting for? They are trying to mass-produce a low-cost laptop to increase availability of computer technology on a world-wide scale...
While parts may have no cash value here, they are probably pretty hard to come by in the target areas of the program (are wi-fi adapters laying around in Libya?)
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I don't see why they say Intel is damaging their scheme. Intel is just after the same thing; selling cheapo laptops to poor dumb people who don't know any better. Seriously, I could build a way faster computer from parts for the cost of one of those pos laptops. How can anyone bare to use a comp that is under 1 ghz? lol. These companies will make big profits if their scheme is successful. The parts in those laptops have no cash value these days.
You are such a goddamn idiot.
Suck my balls :P
I don't see why they say Intel is damaging their scheme. Intel is just after the same thing; selling cheapo laptops to poor dumb people who don't know any better. Seriously, I could build a way faster computer from parts for the cost of one of those pos laptops. How can anyone bare to use a comp that is under 1 ghz? lol. These companies will make big profits if their scheme is successful. The parts in those laptops have no cash value these days.
Turbo... Intel is a for-profit corporation while OLPC (one laptop per child) is non-profit....
You're right that tech-savvy people here can build better computers for the same or less cost, but can you provide home-made laptops in the kinds of numbers that OLPC is shooting for? They are trying to mass-produce a low-cost laptop to increase availability of computer technology on a world-wide scale...
While parts may have no cash value here, they are probably pretty hard to come by in the target areas of the program (are wi-fi adapters laying around in Libya?)
I honestly think that both companies are doing it for profit. Olpc IS making a profit mind you. There are a lot of better things that could be done for these countries before going to the computer level, seriously.
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The reason this is a complex issue is that, yeah, they'd all rather have a burger than a spreadsheet, but when you give a starving child a meal, you are doing a great thing, but in all seriousness he's just going to need another meal in 4 hours. Are you just going to feed this kid with donations forever, or are you going to try to spend that money on the sorts of investments that will allow him, his family, his town, his country to survive on their own?
The power of the internet is really hard to even understand. Its usefulness in the scope of human rights, peace/justice, art and science really can't be overstated. In the end it will make the printing press look like a minor footnote in human evolution. And for those that say "traditional" means of education are just as valid...have you had to buy college textbooks lately? The shit costs *way* more than a $200 computer. And shipping them to Africa...how much does that cost? To update a book you have to re-print the sucker, but a computer can be updated via network. Computers are also much better for learning things on your own, at least for me. What you are trying to teach these people is really important stuff like water treatment, disease prevention, first aid, farming, language skills, really basic, but really important stuff.
As for being able to buy/build something better from off the shelf parts...you truly are a total tool for thinking this. When was the last time you saw a laptop for sale with a hand powered generator built in? Personally, me, never, and to power a 2 ghz windows machine with a GB of RAM by hand would probably be impossible. You'd need to have dudes on bicycle generators pedaling away the whole time. Consumer laptops for us rich westerners are a completely different products. They are fragile, unreliable, basically the Kleenex of computing. A new iBook is great for me, but these people have different needs totally. These systems will run on less power in a day than my computer consumes in a few minutes. The OS is no frills, but solid. NASA doesn't send Windows into outer space, or even Linux. A similar situation applies.
Think of the C64. That thing was on the market for f*cking *ages*, the same computer. No changes. Now a laptop is considered uselessly slow in 7 years or so despite it being literally millions of times more powerful than a C64. This is the sort of product that the 3rd world needs, and in some ways all of us, honestly. We can't all go chucking $1000 laptops every few years because the USB ports blew out, or the screen cracked, of the shift key doesn't work, or "now that have a prettier one", because the landfills, not to mention credit cards, can't keep going like this forever.
These people need food, medicine, etc, but they also need to be able to figure out how to survive well without donations someday.
While it may seem like I think that I just laid out a case for these little green computers, the truth is I'm not really sold on this particular idea just yet. I do think however its worth trying as part of a multi-part strategy.
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One of the points I made earlier is that there are things that could be done for these countries before going to the computer level. You said that this laptop is convenient because of the hand powered generator that powers it. You know what would be even more convenient, if these countries had power to begin with. Seriously, they need to build up to a certain point first. It makes me laugh when I hear people giving computers to people with no power. Think of all the things that a country could do with electricity. If all the money that went into this laptop scam went into actually helping these countries, they might not be soo poor any more.
As for pdf vs textbook, they're going to have to be paid for either way. But I guess it would be better to have pdf on a laptop because a bunch of dodos would rather donate laptops than help a country to acquire electricity to actually read real books in a classroom. If you've looked into this scheme, you'll notice that they brag how the laptops "lit up the room." To me these companies are a bunch of money hungry bastards and people supporting them are the real tools.
:roll: [-(
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That's my point exactly though. Supplying electricity isn't really that difficult of a thing to achieve, at least not on a small scale. They are better off learning how to run power lines than indebting themselves to the world bank for the next century so that American/European contractors can lay the powerlines for insane profit.
Whether or not this education comes in the form of a $200 laptop, or a book is another matter, but I seriously don't see much profit in this project. Get real. They aren't exactly going to be swimming in money from the profits of a $200 laptop in this day and age.
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One of the points I made earlier is that there are things that could be done for these countries before going to the computer level. You said that this laptop is convenient because of the hand powered generator that powers it. You know what would be even more convenient, if these countries had power to begin with. Seriously, they need to build up to a certain point first. It makes me laugh when I hear people giving computers to people with no power. Think of all the things that a country could do with electricity. If all the money that went into this laptop scam went into actually helping these countries, they might not be soo poor any more.
As for pdf vs textbook, they're going to have to be paid for either way. But I guess it would be better to have pdf on a laptop because a bunch of dodos would rather donate laptops than help a country to acquire electricity to actually read real books in a classroom. If you've looked into this scheme, you'll notice that they brag how the laptops "lit up the room." To me these companies are a bunch of money hungry bastards and people supporting them are the real tools.
:roll: [-(
you are terminally stupid.
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What? Why not post your views instead of insults? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Maybe your head is too far up your ass from your last goatse :lol: If I am wrong, why don't you prove it? What? you can't? Ya, I thought so.
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Often ones opinion can be taken as an insult.
For me, people only have a right to their opinion if its based on facts, thought, logic, etc. I have no respect for random, ill informed bullshit.
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All of my views are based on logic. Isn't it only logical what I've said? Seriously, is it not more logical to give a country electricity before a laptop? Children in our schools don't have laptops. I never had a laptop when I was a child, did you? I am healthy. Why? Because I can eat food that is not rotten because of refrigeration. I am healthy because I have clean filtered water. You guys think that you are right? You think that you care because you give a child something that he doesn't need? You care for nothing! You only care about making yourself think that you made a difference when you have not!
For me, people that insult others because of their opinions are the real idiots. If you and guyjin are so smart and respectable, why can you not challenge my views instead of posting childish bullshit? When I see this it just proves to me that you guys are bunch of morons, lol. Seriously, you take a step backwards instead of forwards. Maybe if you guys had a green laptop when you were children you guys might have ended up with brains :lol:
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I bet a large amount of parents take the childs laptop and sell/trade it for food,clothes, etc.
It's a great idea, but if there is no follow up to ensure that the laptop will be used properly, it's kind of pointless.
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All of my views are based on logic. Isn't it only logical what I've said? Seriously, is it not more logical to give a country electricity before a laptop?
I don't think your views are entirely logical.
You seem like you aren't taking into account the fact that the laptop program was started by an educator (teacher) who values education.
The laptop program is focused primarily on improving education in poor countries and communities.
Turbo, you're certainly right that there are many many things that can be done in these countries and communities beyond intoducing computer technology in the realm of education, but personally I don't have the skills nor the knowledge necessary to start such a program on my own, and you haven't presented any alternative programs in any of your comments...
You've consistently criticized the laptop program without providing a concrete alternative for us to look at and possibly invest in! Therefore, I see what you are doing as choosing to do nothing at all instead of participating in the laptop program.
However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!
The thing that excites me the most about this particular laptop is the mesh networking. While Necromancer correctly pointed out that this doesn't imply a connection to the world wide web, it may help improve communication between some of the poorer, more isolated communities...
I think increased communication can lead to an increase in the exchange of ideas which may lead to an increase in knowledge and make more likely the prospects for the kinds of social change that we agree are necessary.
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These kids are supposed to be making Nikes, not putting shitty backgrounds on their Myspace.
I bet they have thehungersite.com in their bookmarks. I bet they also click twice. ;)
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I bet a large amount of parents take the childs laptop and sell/trade it for food,clothes, etc.
It's a great idea, but if there is no follow up to ensure that the laptop will be used properly, it's kind of pointless.
In a speech at MIT, the founder of the laptop program discussed security issues. It's mentioned on the wiki article.
here is the video (http://mitworld.mit.edu/stream/311/)
here's the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_laptop_per_child) (see the theft and resale under the criticism section) The grey market is brought up about 24 minutes into the video.
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All of my views are based on logic. Isn't it only logical what I've said? Seriously, is it not more logical to give a country electricity before a laptop?
I don't think your views are entirely logical.
You seem like you aren't taking into account the fact that the laptop program was started by an educator (teacher) who values education.
The laptop program is focused primarily on improving education in poor countries and communities.
Turbo, you're certainly right that there are many many things that can be done in these countries and communities beyond intoducing computer technology in the realm of education, but personally I don't have the skills nor the knowledge necessary to start such a program on my own, and you haven't presented any alternative programs in any of your comments...
You've consistently criticized the laptop program without providing a concrete alternative for us to look at and possibly invest in! Therefore, I see what you are doing as choosing to do nothing at all instead of participating in the laptop program.
However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!
The thing that excites me the most about this particular laptop is the mesh networking. While Necromancer correctly pointed out that this doesn't imply a connection to the world wide web, it may help improve communication between some of the poorer, more isolated communities...
I think increased communication can lead to an increase in the exchange of ideas which may lead to an increase in knowledge and make more likely the prospects for the kinds of social change that we agree are necessary.
What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy. To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that?
This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests :P .
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What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy.
Intel is a for-profit corporation, while OLPC (one laptop per child) is a non-profit. These two types of organizations have different legal responsibilites. The board of directors of a for-profit corporation is legally responsible for increasing the profit margin for shareholders.
From the wiki on "non-profit organization": Most experts consider the legal and ethical restrictions on the distribution of profits to owners or shareholders as what fundamentally distinguishes NPOs from commercial enterprises. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organisation)
If intel were to dominate the market share for providing these laptops, I feel that the children's benefit would be decreased, and the benefits to the corporation would be increased. While certainly not fool proof, a non-profit organization offers at least the hope that lowering of costs will benifit the children in the form of increased quality or lower price, while a for-profit organization would be legally responsible to increase the profits of the shareholders.
This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests :P .
So when someone asks you for help, the best thing to do is crap on them and tell them to take care of themself?
For YOU, this thread is about criticizing the laptop program, which is negative. Though you may have the best interest of the world community at heart, you are manifesting your concern for the community in a purely negative fashion, in my opinion.
You aren't offering anything positive -- in other words, something that actually exists. You are only trying to criticize something that someone else is doing -- or trying to do.
And I'm not just asking you to tell me what to invest in, but at least offer some real choices that are superior to the laptop program.
To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that
The logic in this is that Negroponte believes in an exploratory educational model. In the video, he goes into it a bit during the question and answer session when someone asks him about it.
He points out that as infants and toddlers, children learn a great deal on their own, by exploration and experimentation, but at the age of 6, children must shift and instead begin to learn by being taught and submitting to teachers rather then exploring on their own.
As a bit of a digression perhaps, think about U.S. history for a moment, back when black slaves and descendants of slaves first got their hands on European brass horns... Even though many said that the blacks were too stupid to read written music, they were able to produce their own forms of music (like rag-time and jazz) and often conscously chose to ignore learning to read written music...
I say that to say: the laptop program isn't about teaching people to use laptops the way the western world uses laptops.... it's about providing laptops as a tool to improve communication and education.
And thank you for your classy encouragement of my education :roll: Obviously, I have found out who NOT to ask for help should I ever run into trouble. After all, if I do run into any trouble it's my own fault and nobody else is morally responsible to offer any assistance, even when I ask for it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37
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Actually, both of you are wrong. This thread is about us voting if we want a shitty laptop or not.
I want a shitty laptop (for Impulse Tracker), but not THIS shitty laptop.
Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?
A lot of them have Wi-Fi. True, they're not as durable. They cannot generate their own power.
But it's a hell of a lot smarter than wasting so much money on something that most likely will NOT change the world.
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Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?
Kitsune, what do you mean by adapting the OLPC OS to existing computers? From what I'm reading, the OLPC OS is open-source Linux. Isn't Linux fairly widespread?
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Also, with as much R&D money put into this thing, wouldn't it have been better just to adapt the OLPC OS to exisiting computers?
Kitsune, what do you mean by adapting the OLPC OS to existing computers? From what I'm reading, the OLPC OS is open-source Linux. Isn't Linux fairly widespread?
Not as much as it should be for a project like OLPC.
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Not as much as it should be for a project like OLPC.
Is there an open-source version of windows or of the Apple OS?
I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.
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I didn't know little 3rd world kids were such Linux hacker gurus... :roll:
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Jeez, guys! Try to keep it civil, please.
And for those that say "traditional" means of education are just as valid...have you had to buy college textbooks lately? The shit costs *way* more than a $200 computer.
That's a half baked argument, as the lion's share of a book's cost is for the content and not for the paper. I've downloaded digital versions of a few manuals and reference books and haven't saved much, if anything. Of course, there's a better chance of a publisher donating a .pdf than of them also eating the cost of printing the books.
As for the whole profit vs. nonprofit argument: thank the gods that Quanta (which is the largest laptop manufacturer in the world and has built laptops for Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, and just about anyone else that you can think of), AMD, and all the other hardware suppliers are all nonprofit organizations. Oh wait, they're not, so I guess that this OLPC program is legally obligated to maximize profits too. :roll:
However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!
Room to Read (http://www.roomtoread.org/)
They've criticized the $100 laptop program as being too expensive. They say that a $2000 library serving 400 people ($5 a head) or a $10,000 school serving 400 people ($25 each) is far more cost effective. I definitely prefer their traditional approach to education over the OLPC program.
I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.
This makes me lose all respect that I had for this project - what little I had, anyway. It makes no sense to turn down a top notch, reliable, and efficient OS because it's not open source. I can't think of any good reasons that they would want to screw with the OS, except for hardware support, which Jobs would surely support.
I still think that this program is dumb, simply because the only reason that anyone in the US would want one of these things is to show how great and caring they are. I'd much rather donate the $400, let them give away both laptops, and buy myself a used Pentium III laptop for less than $100 that will run rings around this look-at-me-machine.
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And Necromancer wins the thread. Good show, sir! :clap:
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f*ck you! Wait.... does that qualify as civil? :lol:
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f*ck you! Wait.... does that qualify as civil? :lol:
I was being serious....for once....
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As for the whole profit vs. nonprofit argument: thank the gods that Quanta (which is the largest laptop manufacturer in the world and has built laptops for Apple, HP, Dell, IBM, and just about anyone else that you can think of), AMD, and all the other hardware suppliers are all nonprofit organizations. Oh wait, they're not, so I guess that this OLPC program is legally obligated to maximize profits too. :roll:
In this case, Quanta, AMD, and the rest are providing "corporate sponsorship", but are not in control of the project itself. If the relationship between the OLPC program and the hardware suppliers is reason for you to lack faith in the program, I really can't blame you. From this article, though, it seems like most of the corporations involved have simply donated money to the program: http://tech.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1212148.php/Taiwans_Quanta_to_make_100-US-dollar_laptops_for_poor_kids (second to last paragraph)
"OLPC is funded by a number of sponsors, including AMD, Brightstar Corp, eBay, Google, Marvell, News Corp, SES Global, Nortel Networks and Red Hat. Each company has donated 2 million US dollars.
Quanta is taking part in the project as a joint designer and sole manufacturer of the laptops."
However, I personally am in college with the goal of becoming a teacher myself, so I place a lot of value on education. I probably wouldn't be as interested in larger-scale infrastructure programs as I am about a program that places emphasis on education. Nonetheless, if you know of a program better than the one laptop per child program, let us know about it!
Room to Read (http://www.roomtoread.org/)
They've criticized the $100 laptop program as being too expensive. They say that a $2000 library serving 400 people ($5 a head) or a $10,000 school serving 400 people ($25 each) is far more cost effective. I definitely prefer their traditional approach to education over the OLPC program.
The MP3 of the conversation with the head of Room to Read can be found here (http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail1033.html) for anyone interested.
The idea of building schools and libraries is certainly more traditional. The laptop program, at least to me, is a new idea that hasn't really been tested yet. How well it will work out when tested on a large scale has yet to be seen.
What's really grabbed me about the laptop program are the communications potential of widespread mesh networked laptops and the idea of children in poor commnities having access to modern tools and technology.
Necromancer, in the above conversation that I linked to (that you quoted from about the roomtoread founder's comments on the laptop program), there were some very interesting comments made by the one panel speaker who isn't white -- to the effect that rich countries need to respect the dignity of the poor... and respect the wants and needs of various communities. While some communities may respond to having schools and libraries built, in other cases poor communities may have schools built but kids not attending... and the hi-tech promise of the laptop program might both more appealing and more effective.
Since the laptop program currently is basing its business model on selling computers to governments rather than private citizens, governments will have to make decisions on balancing how much money to put toward building schools and libraries or into the laptop program.
I think it's a great choice for governments to have.
I found this on the wiki: Steve Jobs had offered Mac OS X free of charge for use in the laptop, but according to Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT who is one of the initiative's founders, the designers want an operating system that can be tinkered with: “We declined because it’s not open source.”[40] Therefore Linux was chosen.
This makes me lose all respect that I had for this project - what little I had, anyway. It makes no sense to turn down a top notch, reliable, and efficient OS because it's not open source. I can't think of any good reasons that they would want to screw with the OS, except for hardware support, which Jobs would surely support.
I still think that this program is dumb, simply because the only reason that anyone in the US would want one of these things is to show how great and caring they are. I'd much rather donate the $400, let them give away both laptops, and buy myself a used Pentium III laptop for less than $100 that will run rings around this look-at-me-machine.
I believe part of the reasion that the laptop program wants the OS to be open-source is to allow the children the opportunity to tinker with the OS and explore it.
I don't know if you've looked at it this way or not, but the idea of opening up open-source-linux development to the poor may result in an explosion of development for linux as a platform... which is underutilized in the richer parts of the world since we're all relatively comfortable with the Windows and Mac OS systems that we are more or less forced to accept.
Why would Steve Jobs refuse to produce an open-source Macintosh OS for the laptop project?
I appreciate your comment about the XO laptop being a "look at me" machine. I really understand what you're saying, and if I get one, I don't want it to be because I want it to be a "look at me" machine. If I get one, I want it to be because I've been thinking of buying a cheap laptop for some time, and this one may be a good one to get because of the buy one get one program. I like the durability aspect of it as well :-" A big part of the reason I've never bought one before is that I don't really trust myself with one. I also liked the multi-language keyboard designs that I saw. I've never looked into getting a laptop with more than one alphabet on the keyboard, but the XO's Arabic/English keyboard is very interesting to me since I would like to learn Arabic.
I didn't know little 3rd world kids were such Linux hacker gurus... :roll:
That's because they haven't had large-scale access to Linux computers.
Personally, I've always had access to DOS or Windows machines so I've never fooled around with either Macintosh OS or Linux, even though my Microsoft machines have not always been stable... (usually when my computers have started crashing or not working I've been able to just buy a new one)
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What is not logical about what I have said? If the "educator" that started this program cares so much about these children getting an education, then why is he so pissed off that Intel is offering laptops to these countries. Shouldn't he be glad that these countries are getting and education through laptops regardless of who makes them? Well he isn't glad, in fact he is extremely pissed. Intel is taking away from the profits of his business. Is not this proof enough of this being a scam? To me it seems fishy.
Intel is a for-profit corporation, while OLPC (one laptop per child) is a non-profit. These two types of organizations have different legal responsibilites. The board of directors of a for-profit corporation is legally responsible for increasing the profit margin for shareholders.
From the wiki on "non-profit organization": Most experts consider the legal and ethical restrictions on the distribution of profits to owners or shareholders as what fundamentally distinguishes NPOs from commercial enterprises. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organisation)
If intel were to dominate the market share for providing these laptops, I feel that the children's benefit would be decreased, and the benefits to the corporation would be increased. While certainly not fool proof, a non-profit organization offers at least the hope that lowering of costs will benifit the children in the form of increased quality or lower price, while a for-profit organization would be legally responsible to increase the profits of the shareholders.
I don't see how the children's benefit would be decreased by having an Intel laptop. Intel is providing them with a laptop that is a little better for a little more. Either way someone is paying for the laptop, whether it be people like you or the governments of these poor countries. I do see the point you are making about the profit/ nonprofit deal. But I don't think that shareholders of intel are going to dance around because of some cheapo laptops being sold. These laptops are made of parts that have been sitting around for years. Intel makes its money on the technology of today. When you compare the processors they sell to these laptops, you can see that its not going to affect Intels market share, lol. I bet you think that children will benefit less by having an intel based laptop when they need that high framerate in counterstrike that they can achieve with the amd :P
This thread is about our views on the laptop scam, NOT me providing an alternative. I did not expect people to come to me and ask me to tell them which charity to invest in, haha. You are not my children; take care of yourselves. It makes me sad to think that a future teacher can not even do his own research. I wonder if you will pass college. Maybe you can use your little green laptop to get information from the internet to cheat on your tests :P .
So when someone asks you for help, the best thing to do is crap on them and tell them to take care of themself?
For YOU, this thread is about criticizing the laptop program, which is negative. Though you may have the best interest of the world community at heart, you are manifesting your concern for the community in a purely negative fashion, in my opinion.
You aren't offering anything positive -- in other words, something that actually exists. You are only trying to criticize something that someone else is doing -- or trying to do.
And I'm not just asking you to tell me what to invest in, but at least offer some real choices that are superior to the laptop program.
You're going to need to learn how to help yourself eventually ragtime, especially since someday YOU will be educating our children. Until you figure out how, I'll be glad to crap on you :wink:
To top it off, he does not even plan to educate the children of their teachers on how to use them. He says that they can "teach themselves." Where is the logic in that
The logic in this is that Negroponte believes in an exploratory educational model. In the video, he goes into it a bit during the question and answer session when someone asks him about it.
He points out that as infants and toddlers, children learn a great deal on their own, by exploration and experimentation, but at the age of 6, children must shift and instead begin to learn by being taught and submitting to teachers rather then exploring on their own.
As a bit of a digression perhaps, think about U.S. history for a moment, back when black slaves and descendants of slaves first got their hands on European brass horns... Even though many said that the blacks were too stupid to read written music, they were able to produce their own forms of music (like rag-time and jazz) and often conscously chose to ignore learning to read written music...
I say that to say: the laptop program isn't about teaching people to use laptops the way the western world uses laptops.... it's about providing laptops as a tool to improve communication and education.
And thank you for your classy encouragement of my education :roll: Obviously, I have found out who NOT to ask for help should I ever run into trouble. After all, if I do run into any trouble it's my own fault and nobody else is morally responsible to offer any assistance, even when I ask for it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37
I'm glad that you now view me as Jesus for my great wisdom :mrgreen:
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They probably turned down OSX because its a f*cking horrible choice for this project overall. It is a total HOG when it comes to storage, memory, and CPU, and therefore requires shitloads more power than absolutely necessary for the task at hand. I mean, I just bought a Mac in 2005 and its pretty obvious that by 2009, if not sooner, I'm going to need another one because its already being obsolesced by Apple. Programs like Aperture, and the new iMovie refuse to install because I don't meet the system requirements, and I'm pretty sure that whenever 10.6 comes out it won't run on PPC Macs. All of this shit is totally unacceptable for the scope of the project.
Its kind of amazing how narrow people's field of vision is when it comes to computers. The later Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books, multi-million sellers, were written on a Mac with an 8mhz 16-bit CPU. Don't you remember those days? Modern day American computers are just like modern day American cars, houses, phones, etc. Massive massive waste. If you've got the money, then I guess that's (debatably) OK, but these people don't have cable connections to download 200MB OS fixes. There won't be an IT crew. There won't be any money to buy more computers in 3 years just because Jobs or Gates decided to sabotage them.
I seriously suggest that you look at the way space probes and satellites are designed. You won't find any MS, or Apple OS in there, they last for 30 years, and run on half a watt a day. This is an extreme example, but closer to what OLPC needs.
Also, a few points. I harp on OSX up above, but its still my favorite choice, for my needs. Vista is even worse, much worse, so don't think I'm singling Apple out. Also, OSX isn't open, but it kind of is. OSX basically just a skin and a few programs on top of Darwin UNIX, which Apple released for free. They could have used that for the OLPC project, but as stated before they need fit and trim, not huge and fat. Think Karen Carpenter versus Nell Carter...topless. That's the comparison we're talking about here.
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Think Karen Carpenter versus Nell Carter...topless. That's the comparison we're talking about here.
In that case I would take Nell Carter in a heartbeat. She's nice and thick with a lovely smile and eyes and is not fragile like a stick with a pointy nose like that other chick you mentioned :P .
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I'm glad that you now view me as Jesus for my great wisdom :mrgreen:
In terms of the bible story I view you more as the Levite.
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I'm glad that you now view me as Jesus for my great wisdom :mrgreen:
In terms of the bible story I view you more as the Levite.
Why, is it because I'm wearing Levite jeans? :lol:
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I'm glad that you now view me as Jesus for my great wisdom :mrgreen:
In terms of the bible story I view you more as the Levite.
Why, is it because I'm wearing Levite jeans? :lol:
LOL
No it's because you seem like you are willing to at least look at the problem but may not be willing to take positive action.
I do understand what you're trying to say about the need for taking care of myself. I think it's important for everyone to try to be the best person they can be... so if you feel like the best thing to do is to push me to take more intiative on my own, I respect that.
I don't see how the children's benefit would be decreased by having an Intel laptop. Intel is providing them with a laptop that is a little better for a little more. Either way someone is paying for the laptop, whether it be people like you or the governments of these poor countries. I do see the point you are making about the profit/ nonprofit deal. But I don't think that shareholders of intel are going to dance around because of some cheapo laptops being sold. These laptops are made of parts that have been sitting around for years. Intel makes its money on the technology of today. When you compare the processors they sell to these laptops, you can see that its not going to affect Intels market share, lol. I bet you think that children will benefit less by having an intel based laptop when they need that high framerate in counterstrike that they can achieve with the amd :P
Firstly, I don't agree that Intel's classmate laptop mentioned in the article (http://wiki.laptop.org/images/5/57/Which_laptop_per_child_Technology_Guardian_Unlimited_Tec...pdf) above is better. The processor is more powerful, and there is more flash memory, but the screen display may consume more power and there is no mesh networking, which I think is a key feature of the XO laptop. Further, the display of the XO seems to be relatively new technology, and not something that's been sitting around for years, though I'm not the most knowledgeable person by any means.
The biggest detriment of Intel providing competition is with regards to OLPC's goal of providing a $100 laptop. Intel, as a for-profit corporation, may or may not lower the price in resonse to market pressures.... while OLPC has made it a mission statement to drive costs down and pass the savings on to the children.
The way the for-profit computer industry has developed is that operating systems and software have become bloated, in the eyes of many, forcing consumers to spend money on upgrading their machines to account for the higher demands of modern software.
One question I have regarding Microsoft and Apple are why they don't want to release an open-source version of their operating system? This is an honest question because I don't know much about the difference between an open-source and a closed-source operating system....
I don't understand how it would hurt Microsoft or Apple to allow people to tinker with their operating systems.
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But how will learning about computers make THEIR world better? Computers won't filter their water, break up their soil, plant their food, etc... I'm glad that people are taking the initiative and deciding to help those less fortunate than we are, but I just can't help but think that the priorities are a little skewed here.
And I understand about the "teach a man to fish" thing. But would you be teaching a man to fish if you taught him to play badmitton? Of course not. So by teaching these kids about computers we may be helping them gain valuable computing skills but unless they have a thing for eating CD-Rs and drinking lithium-ion juice, this computer won't be teaching them anything they really need.
Also, someone touched base on this a while back in this thread, but I thought it was a good point so I'll bring it up again. This "Here's your laptop, figure out what to do with it." teaching method is a JOKE. A BAD JOKE. What if you did the same with a gun? How many seconds would the kid last before he tries looking down the barrel while he squeezes the trigger? I think that if they would set up schools and that the laptops became learning aids like they're supposed to be instead of replacing the teachers, the kids would learn a lot more.
However, for all the bad jokes I've made during this thread, and for all the attitude of not caring I've shown, I really do feel sorry for them. I've already linked www.thehungersite.com (http://www.thehungersite.com/) and even though it's kind of capitalizing on their plight, I still click it everyday, I reccomend you guys do as well. (Don't buy the merchandise though, that's just going too far).
But really the most important thing is that I'm here bitching about the laptops they're receiving instead of being over there receiving a laptop. I'm really grateful that I have enough to eat, that the only thing I have to worry about in my life is that I don't stay up 'til 4:00 again playing Dagger Sometimes I superfluously say my life sucks, but seriously, if some circumstances had been different, it could be sucking a LOT worse right now.
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But how will learning about computers make THEIR world better? Computers won't filter their water, break up their soil, plant their food, etc...
Why not? Here in the US computers do, in fact, do all the water purification, soil cultivation, and food planting. Its not an autonomous process, but computers are integral. Computers, grandpa, are bascially integral to every single thing I can name. Furthermore, even if these things will be done by hand a computer is probably the best way to train people to do anything.
This "Here's your laptop, figure out what to do with it." teaching method is a JOKE. A BAD JOKE. What if you did the same with a gun? How many seconds would the kid last before he tries looking down the barrel while he squeezes the trigger?
That's a totally idiotic analogy. Even with the best training all a kid can do with a gun is shoot somebody since that's all guns do, shoot.
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@SignOfZeta:
The OLPC isn't meant to run processor intensive software like extensive photo and digital video editing. OSX could have been scaled down to meet the needs of the OLPC program - just like Linux was. A full featured install of Linux and open-source productivity software would easily overfill and overpower this little laptop.
I can't speak for you, but nobody is forcing me to buy a new computer. My five year old computer runs the same software that it did when it was new and some newer stuff too. It's unreasonable to expect it to be able to run any and all software that may or may not be released in the future.
@rag-time4:
In this case, Quanta, AMD, and the rest are providing "corporate sponsorship", but are not in control of the project itself. If the relationship between the OLPC program and the hardware suppliers is reason for you to lack faith in the program, I really can't blame you.
The little rolling eyes smiley was meant to show that I did not believe the sentence preceding it. My point was that AMD is charging for the processor and motherboard chipsets that it provides and that Quanta is assembling everything for a price (these laptops aren't free). Even if these for-profit companies provide their products and services at cost, they still benefit from lowered costs due to higher production volumes and from whatever tax allowances they can get. Intel could be doing the exact same thing; they aren't necessarily evil.
One question I have regarding Microsoft and Apple are why they don't want to release an open-source version of their operating system? This is an honest question because I don't know much about the difference between an open-source and a closed-source operating system....
I don't understand how it would hurt Microsoft or Apple to allow people to tinker with their operating systems.
Open-source generally means that the source code of a program is made available free of charge to the general public for their use and modification. Microsoft and Apple wouldn't make much money if they gave their software away for nothing, so there isn't much incentive for them to do so. I can't really speak for OSX, as I haven't used it a whole hell of a lot, but nearly anything can be tinkered with in windows. Linux is more streamlined, but it isn't any more powerful and is far less user friendly.
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The OLPC isn't meant to run processor intensive software like extensive photo and digital video editing. OSX could have been scaled down to meet the needs of the OLPC program - just like Linux was. A full featured install of Linux and open-source productivity software would easily overfill and overpower this little laptop.
Just booting OSX takes 512 MB of RAM. Stripping down enough to run on a machine like this would transform it into a different thing totally.
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Yes, but Linux is also a totally different thing. AppleTVs and iPhones both run stripped down versions of Leopard, so I don't see any reason that the OLPC laptop couldn't use it too.
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Basically, they want their users to be able to share software at will, and propagate patches in a similar way... non open software, even if free, would impede this.
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I understand that, but I don't see a bunch of neophytes having the ability to fix a broken operating system without outside help. Even worse, each village without an internet connection would have to cobble together their own patches.
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He's not talking about the users...
...my God...why is this so hard to understand?
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He's not talking about the users...
...my God...why is this so hard to understand?
OK, so where were these internet lacking users supposed to get the patches? Carrier pigeon, perhaps? Software updates aren't exactly trade secrets and tightly controlled. Once loaded onto a single laptop, they could be easily distributed regardless of the OS used (depending on whether MS would de-draconian its "Genuine Advantage" bullshit).
Why is so hard to understand that Jobs was not offering the exact same software and experience that customers in the US receive? Any software beyond the OS is a non-issue, as plenty of open source software is available for Windows and Macs.