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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Necromancer on November 28, 2007, 10:17:00 AM

Title: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 28, 2007, 10:17:00 AM
Preface: This is not a Mac bashing thread.  If the software that I use were available for Mac, then I would seriously consider buying one.

While wasting some time on Tom's Hardware Guide, I came across some interesting articles regarding Apple's quality control and customer service.  They used to be top drawer, but times they are a changin'.  Apparently, the new iMacs use low quality screens with uneven back lighting, yet Apple won't take them back as defective units.  Which they aren't, I guess; they're just stinky TN panels.  People are also pissed about Leopards bugs and BSoDs, and they are not pleased with Leopard's upgrade pricing either.  Recent buyers aren't getting freebies and the cheap upgrades are given only to buyers after October 1st, but I can't feel sorry for the people not getting a free or cheap upgrade, as they knew it was coming and weren't promised anything.  On the other hand, the inadequate testing is super crappy - especially after delaying Leopard for so long.  It's not like they have the infinite number of configurations to worry about like MS.  It should be interesting to see if Apple will mea culpa and clean up their act, or if they've gotten too big and will be just like everyone else.

Head here (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/27/apple_imac_display_problems_reported/), here (http://www.tomsguide.com/us/apple-osx-leopard,review-1016.html), and here (http://www.tomsguide.com/us/update-leopard-problems-apple,review-1028.html) to read the articles for yourself.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 10:36:07 AM
I think they have become worse over the past year or so.  Even their updates are more buggy and untested.  Pissed me off.  I still refuse to update Quicktime because of the horror stories I've heard.  I'll stick with what works, thanks.  Screw Leopard.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 28, 2007, 10:40:14 AM
If Apple had some appealing case design (I liked the iMac design, but I don't like this white modernist look) and some software that I would actually USE, I'd be all over it.

Unfortunately, Windows is just too dominant in the world and has too many programs I use to let me switch over.

I'm in the same boat as Joe when it comes to Quicktime.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: rolins on November 28, 2007, 11:03:13 AM
I find it very amusing that Mac users are getting the shaft. LOL.

The most fk'd up part is Apple covering their own ass by deleting discussion threads about their products' shortcomings. 
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 28, 2007, 11:06:59 AM
*THIS POST HAS BEEN DELETED BY APPLE*
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 11:32:58 AM
I think that apple has changed a lot. Especially when they switched to intel. I don't see it as a bad thing though. You have to remember that they are competing with a company that has most all of the home computer market. As far as leopard goes, you have to expect bugs since its a new OS. Vista has bugs too, haha.

I have noticed the displays being a bit dim. This was especially apparent to me on their macbooks. I have an Apple store by my house(in Pasadena  8) ), so I go there and fiddle with the apple stuff  :) . I do appreciate their best display having extreme hd resolution; that is completely bad-ass! They are one of the few companies that offer it.

*THIS POST HAS BEEN DELETED BY APPLE*

rofl  :lol:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 28, 2007, 03:41:15 PM
As far as leopard goes, you have to expect bugs since its a new OS. Vista has bugs too, haha.

Wrong, Leopard is just another features update to OSX; far from a completely new build.  The eighteen months between Tiger and Leopard should have been enough time to work out the major bugs (stop errors and data loss).
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 28, 2007, 03:42:45 PM
Let's all just use Amiga.  :dance:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 03:46:02 PM
As far as leopard goes, you have to expect bugs since its a new OS. Vista has bugs too, haha.

Wrong, Leopard is just another features update to OSX; far from a completely new build.  The eighteen months between Tiger and Leopard should have been enough time to work out the major bugs (stop errors and data loss).

I didn't know that it was just an upgrade  :o That sucks then  :lol: What disappoints me about Mac is that a lot of the new features are similar to ones that have been out on linux for a looong time. I'm not dogging them though.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 28, 2007, 04:22:28 PM
OS X is still miles better than XP, if for nothing more than security. And it looks nicer doing it.

That said, I haven't upgraded to 10.5 (Leopard) yet. I won't, either, until they've worked out the bugs and it's come down in price. OS X 10.4 is awesome.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 28, 2007, 04:37:10 PM
OS X is still miles better than XP, if for nothing more than security. And it looks nicer doing it.

Being less of a target does not equal being secure.  Apple products have their fair share of bug fixes and patches, just like XP.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 04:57:38 PM
I guess a good thing about Apple is that you don't have to wait forever for the patches.  With Microsoft you need to wait forever for a freakin' service pack.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 28, 2007, 04:59:41 PM
Apple products have their fair share of bug fixes and patches, just like XP.

Sure, of course. So does any software.

Being less of a target does not equal being secure.

Oh, give me a break. XP is built on a 20 year old architecture that is severely obsolete on many levels. It also has many inherent weaknesses and instabilities because of this. It is extremely vulnerable to security compromise and leaves the backdoor wide open for a royal anal raping by anyone who knows half a thing about computers.

I don't know anything about Vista, but computers have changed so much in the past 20 years that the only real way to fix the problem is to redevelop the OS core from the ground up. This hasn't been done since Windows 3.0. If this wasn't done with Vista, then Microsoft is out of their f*cking mind.

If Micro-penis-soft had entered the market as a newcomer with Windows XP as their up-and-coming OS, consumers would have laughed in their face and never looked back. Fortunately for them, they were able to hold on to a market they secured in the MS-DOS days.

There's a reason there are 1.6 billion viruses out there that affect XP machines and 5 that affect OS X. Sure, the whole "less of a target" thing plays a role, but the simple fact is that it's just sooooo f*cking easy to program malware for an OS that basically has rape-you-in-the-ass capabilities built right in.

I'm not saying Apple is the end-all and be-all of the computing industry, but they sure could take the 'penis to school on building a proper modern OS. BTW, I wouldn't have said the same thing 10 years ago.

It's a shame so many useful apps are Windows-only. Good thing I can run those in a closed XP environment on my Mac when I need to.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 05:07:21 PM
The only major Windows app I wish were on the Mac is Nero.  There are probably a few more different programs like emulators and stuff, but other than that, the Mac does everything I want and Windows doesn't do Final Cut Studio.  The Mac is also ridiculously easy to maintain.  Want to delete an application?  Just drag it to the trash.  No need to run an uninstaller.  The only thing that most apps leave behind would be preference files.  You can find these in the Library folder if you MUST delete them (they are simply text files).
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 05:09:22 PM
OS X is based on an architecture developed in 1969; unix  :)
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 28, 2007, 05:12:53 PM
OS X is based on an architecture developed in 1969; unix  :)

Yes and no.

It is developed from a modern version of a UNIX derivative. But nice try.

The only major Windows app I wish were on the Mac is Nero. 

Agreed-- that's the only Windows app I really use, and only to burn ISO/CUE sets. But since I took the time to install XP, I also installed copies of those kick-ass offline PCE catalogs. Someday someone will write an OS X app that can burn ISO/CUE sets and I can delete XP.

Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 05:23:46 PM
Quote
OS X is based on an architecture developed in 1969; unix

Too bad it's not severely obsolete on many levels.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 05:28:35 PM
Its a good thing that it isn't !
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: guyjin on November 28, 2007, 05:32:43 PM
OS X is based on an architecture developed in 1969; unix  :)

As everyone who uses this board should know, old is often better than new.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 05:44:00 PM
I like that most OSs' are 2-D  :) Damn you beryl for trying to ruin this for me  :x
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 05:51:30 PM
One person on the Mac Forums suggested that the next Mac OS should be 3D.  He also made suggestions like "I want to talk to my Mac, I want to tell it to turn on, and then it would get to the 3D desktop and it would ask me what I wanted to do, and I'd tell it to launch a web browser and go to the Apple home page.  It'd be like having a real conversation with my computer!".  Gawd.  If it ever came to that, I'd give up computers and go back outside again.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 06:00:30 PM
microsoft has beat your friend to the punch their with their new "sync" that they're installing in cars. Its some OS that you can talk to and make your bitch.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 28, 2007, 06:39:02 PM
microsoft has beat your friend to the punch their with their new "sync" that they're installing in cars. Its some OS that you can talk to and make your bitch.

A Microsoft OS in cars puts a new meaning to "crash"...
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 28, 2007, 07:04:19 PM
lol
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 28, 2007, 07:26:23 PM
Yeah, in the future Microsoft is going to put that Sync crap in EVERYTHING, until the only thing they haven't put it in is the kitchen, because they don't want food on the hardware.

They use this to their advantage though, as their new marketing campaign will be "Everything but the kitchen Sync".
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 28, 2007, 10:34:49 PM
OK you were stretching with that one.   :P
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on November 28, 2007, 10:46:02 PM
I used to use Mac OS, but switched to Windows when OS X came out.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 28, 2007, 11:28:00 PM
To some extent I think things have gotten a bit shoddier, but thats true of electronics in general. Electronics companies like Apple are not building virtually everything in China from day one, and the labor costs in these situations are basically zero. It costs about a penny to pay some poor woman to put together an iPod, but it costs several dollars just to advertise it. Since the customer will just run out and buy a new model when their stuff brakes,  Apple doesn't see it worth the financial investment to up the sub-slave wages they pay their workers, and we know their moral fiber isn't going to compel them.

This has also happened to Nintendo. Their handhelds are just not as reliable as they used to me. The DS Lite for example, as wonderful as it is, is also the most poorly built product Nintendo has ever made. It used to be that initial runs of Nintendo stuff was always built in Japan until they had the process perfected, then they'd move production overseas. The Wii was built %100 in China from day one.

Sony stuff seems to have actually gotten shittier, if that was at all possible.

As for Leopard costing too much...I don't know what that's about. Isn't it $129? The same price as 10.4, 10.3, 10.2, etc, and isn't that still far cheaper than Windows? Maybe I'm missing something. Until I get a 1TB drive I don't see the point in Leopard since Time Machine is the coolest feature, and that eats more HD space than Final Cut Pro, so I'm holding off.

Another thing about these anecdotal Apple complaints you have to consider is Apple has a lot of new customers, and I think a lot of them are just retarded noobs who don't know WTF they are doing complaining about shit that might not even be broken, they just don't know what's going on. Basically, Windows users. So now Apple has some Windows users using OSX, they are going to have Windows users complaints too.

All I can say is that I use OSX exclusively at home, and I love it. Nero would be nice, but since its only needed for pirating PCE games, I can't really count that as a strike against the machine/OS.

My only problems with Apple are the same they have been for ages; 1) they make software that obsolesces their hardware too often, 2) they remove features then make a big deal when they bring them back as if they were new or something (see iMovie).
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 29, 2007, 04:11:58 AM
There's a reason there are 1.6 billion viruses out there that affect XP machines and 5 that affect OS X. Sure, the whole "less of a target" thing plays a role, but the simple fact is that it's just sooooo f*cking easy to program malware for an OS that basically has rape-you-in-the-ass capabilities built right in.


I won't claim that XP or Vista are secure, but they aren't nearly as far behind OS X as you think.

Total security advisories issued (from Secunia):
OS X - 108
XP - 194
Vista - 15

Take these with a grain of salt, as they sometimes will group related vulnerabilities into one advisory.  Head here (http://blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_6_month_vulnerability_report) for an interesting read on vulnerabilities found during the first six months after an OS release.

As for Leopard costing too much...I don't know what that's about. Isn't it $129? The same price as 10.4, 10.3, 10.2, etc, and isn't that still far cheaper than Windows?


Some peeps are bitching that they have to pay full price to upgrade a computer purchased as recently as  September 30th (more recent buyers get it for only $10), but they get no sympathy from me.  If they wanted Leopard for free, then they should have waited for its release.

Another thing about these anecdotal Apple complaints you have to consider is Apple has a lot of new customers, and I think a lot of them are just retarded noobs who don't know WTF they are doing complaining about shit that might not even be broken, they just don't know what's going on. Basically, Windows users. So now Apple has some Windows users using OSX, they are going to have Windows users complaints too.


Yeah, right.  Data loss and critical hardware errors are features, not faults.  Stupid noobs.  :roll:

I will agree that nobody should complain about the crappy displays.  It's a fact that TN panels are incapable of reproducing 24 bit color, and it's not uncommon for them to have uneven coloring.  If people have a problem with this, then they should buy a Mac mini (or Mac Pro) and higher quality display (Mac or otherwise).
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 29, 2007, 04:32:24 AM
I've got a 2GHz Core^2 Duo mini with a nice ViewSonic flatpanel LCD. It's a dream.

I'm going to wait a while on Leopard unless someone gets it for me for Christmas or something. I'm usually an OS revision behind, at least. I just upgraded to 10.4 from 10.2.8 early this year.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 29, 2007, 06:22:20 AM
I used to use Mac OS, but switched to Windows when OS X came out.

Ouch!  Admittedly, I was pretty peeved when OS X came out since I was a long time OS7-8-9 user and was pretty happy with them.  I was able to Get OS X for free and I could boot into it when I wanted and tinker around, but still mainly used OS9.  I eventually started using OS X more and more.  I'm glad I did.  My current Mac cannot run OS 9, though.  :(
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 29, 2007, 06:54:21 AM
I stole panther and ran it on my pc with pear pc about a year ago, haha. It was kinda slow, being emulation and all, but it was still cool.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 29, 2007, 08:00:03 AM
I wish Apple would sell OS X as a standalone product and not require installation on their hardware - Mac minis are too low end and cramped, Mac Pros are way too expensive, and all-in-ones (iMacs) ain't for me.  It's already been done successfully (illegally), but I'm not interested in hacking my way to a new OS.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 29, 2007, 08:57:46 AM
I'm surprised nobody has posted soemthing to the effect of "OF COURSE APPLE HAS LOST IT'S WAY! Billions of features yet no GPS!" yet...
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on November 29, 2007, 09:07:47 AM
OF COURSE APPLE HAS LOST IT'S WAY! Billions of features yet no GPS!

Edit: What the? :o This post didn't appear until now. I posted it yesterday!
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 29, 2007, 09:38:47 AM
Sure you did.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on November 29, 2007, 10:07:35 AM
(http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/files/bgemmill/Images/seriously.jpg)
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 29, 2007, 10:34:51 AM
EVERYBODY! EVERYBODY!
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 29, 2007, 02:13:32 PM
what do you mean no gps?  :-k
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: TR0N on November 29, 2007, 02:39:04 PM
(http://www.tuftl.tufts.edu/files/bgemmill/Images/seriously.jpg)

NO LOAFING!
Any way apple has lost it on the ipod to many damn models  :P
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 29, 2007, 02:49:48 PM
my friend bought an 80gb ipod for his chick and the next month they released a 160gb for the price he paid. Those bastards at apple are always screwing people  :x
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Bonknuts on November 29, 2007, 05:00:36 PM
I heard that Apple was the second coming of Christ... later I learned it wasn't for real  :pray:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 29, 2007, 05:27:44 PM
If Apple was the second coming of Christ, then that would make Microsoft the Anti-Christ... hey wait a minute!  :lol:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 29, 2007, 06:46:36 PM
Christ doesn't come.  And if He did he'd wear a rubber.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 29, 2007, 07:32:23 PM
Christ doesn't come.  And if He did he'd wear a rubber.

 :lol:  :dance:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2007, 11:22:42 PM
my friend bought an 80gb ipod for his chick and the next month they released a 160gb for the price he paid. Those bastards at apple are always screwing people  :x

Yes, they should never upgrade their products.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: SignOfZeta on November 29, 2007, 11:26:23 PM
Yeah, you'd think of someone could survive OS9, which crashed every day, and required manual memory management in most situations, that they could deal with the problems of the early OSX...mainly that you pretty much had to buy all your programs again.

It took a year or two, but OSX eventually got to the point where all other Mac OS are pretty horrible by comparison, and I think its very good for everyone. I really have no reason to believe that Windows XP would have been such a huge improvement if OSX wasn't around to embarrass MS.

I used to use Mac OS, but switched to Windows when OS X came out.

Ouch!  Admittedly, I was pretty peeved when OS X came out since I was a long time OS7-8-9 user and was pretty happy with them.  I was able to Get OS X for free and I could boot into it when I wanted and tinker around, but still mainly used OS9.  I eventually started using OS X more and more.  I'm glad I did.  My current Mac cannot run OS 9, though.  :(
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 30, 2007, 02:35:54 AM
my friend bought an 80gb ipod for his chick and the next month they released a 160gb for the price he paid. Those bastards at apple are always screwing people  :x

Yeah, what's up with those jerks replacing a two year old model with a new one?  The greedy bums should still be selling the original five gig model for $400 or more.  Increased features and/or lower costs for electronics is unheard of.

Yeah, you'd think of someone could survive OS9, which crashed every day, and required manual memory management in most situations, that they could deal with the problems of the early OSX...mainly that you pretty much had to buy all your programs again.

That is exactly what MS needs to do - forget broad backwards compatibility and simplify the OS.  It wouldn't affect most hardware (being USB plug and play or driver dependent), and if people want to keep old software, then they can stick to their old OS.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 30, 2007, 02:52:08 AM
Yeah, you'd think of someone could survive OS9, which crashed every day, and required manual memory management in most situations, that they could deal with the problems of the early OSX...mainly that you pretty much had to buy all your programs again.

That is exactly what MS needs to do - forget broad backwards compatibility and simplify the OS.  It wouldn't affect most hardware (being USB plug and play or driver dependent), and if people want to keep old software, then they can stick to their old OS.

You've got the right idea, but they need to go a lot further than just "simplifying." They need to rebuild the whole damn thing from the core kernel on up. The ending result would be faster, more secure, and just generally better.

Does anyone know if they did that with Vista? Probably not, huh? It's probably just a further abomination of code older than some of the forum members here.

Until the Micropenis wises up and does this, I won't look twice at any OS they produce.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 30, 2007, 04:19:08 AM
That's kind of what I meant - I figure that the only way to remove backwards compatibility is to remove the components that old crap runs on, which would leave very little code remaining.  The XP driver issue showed us that MS couldn't start over like Apple has done twice in six years (once for OS X and again for x86 OS X), without suffering nonstop bitching and a likely class action lawsuit.

Not that age really matters or changes the quality of the OS, but Vista's kernel (as well as XP's) is based on the NT kernel, which was released in '93.  OS X's Darwin core is based on the Mach kernel, which is eight years older (1985).
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 30, 2007, 05:12:36 AM
And the NT kernel has it's roots in early 16-bit architecture, which is probably contemporary with the Mach kernel you speak of.

But you could trace code lineage (of any OS) back to the stone age. OS X was a highly specialized build that used Darwin elements at it's core, optimized for modern hardware. As has been pointed out, most backwards compatibility was taken out for the greater good of the OS. It was almost an entirely new product when released.

The same can't be said for Windows, which hasn't seen a completely rewritten core since the late '80s. I haven't heard of anyone who likes Vista, in fact, 100% (that's right, 100%) of the people I know personally who have tried it switched back to XP within a week or two. I don't personally know a single person currently using Vista by choice on their home computer.

I don't actually know anything about Vista, but it seems to me judging by consumer response that the inevitable, inherent problems of using an ancient architecture without retooling are finally becoming apparent to the sheeple. I saw the beginnings of this with XP, but at the time the monopoly the Micropenis held over the home PC OS market pretty much left people with no choice. The final release of Windows 95 was the last MS OS that was any good during it's day, mainly because (at the time) the framework wasn't obsolete. And goddamn I held on to that OS as long as I could before developers just stopped supporting it altogether and I had to upgrade. I completely skipped 98, 2000, and ME and used 95 right up until XP came out. After a year with XP that included several viral infestations, two complete HD wipes w/re-installs, and a keystroke logger that stole my credit card number and cost me $1,000 in credit card fraud, I joyfully parted ways with Micro-penis-soft while happily giving them the finger until they were a mere spec on the horizon.

I won't even think about giving them another chance until they stop trying to rip people off with the same kernel packaged with a new GUI and a pricetag intended to drain your retirement account.

BTW, I eventually got that money back from the fraud incident but it was a month of hell and left more than a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not an Apple-hugger per se, but in today's computing age their OS is far and away the superior choice. During the 90's I definitely wouldn't have said that.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 30, 2007, 05:42:44 AM
my friend bought an 80gb ipod for his chick and the next month they released a 160gb for the price he paid. Those bastards at apple are always screwing people  :x

Yes, they should never upgrade their products.

well maybe you like being f*cked in the ass by apple, sign of gayta  :roll:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on November 30, 2007, 08:11:32 AM
I have never had a virus, or spyware, or gotten ripped off, or anything of the sort. I have been using XP. Without anti-virus and spyware software. I use my credit card online all the time.

The good thing about Windows is that there is software available for it.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 30, 2007, 08:13:22 AM
And the NT kernel has it's roots in early 16-bit architecture, which is probably contemporary with the Mach kernel you speak of.

But you could trace code lineage (of any OS) back to the stone age. OS X was a highly specialized build that used Darwin elements at it's core, optimized for modern hardware. As has been pointed out, most backwards compatibility was taken out for the greater good of the OS. It was almost an entirely new product when released.

The same can't be said for Windows, which hasn't seen a completely rewritten core since the late '80s.

On the contrary, the exact same can be said of NT, though it has still been fourteen years.  It was rewritten from the ground up (as much as OS X was anyhow) to transition to 32-bit and support multiple platforms, including PowerPC oddly enough.  Its most basic roots can't be traced to DOS but to OS/2, which came out about the same time as the Mach kernel.

I'm not a MS humper, nor am I foolish enough to believe that OS X is secure.  If precautions aren't taken, it's just a matter of time before an infestation on OS X, XP, or Vista.  I wouldn't hesitate to suggest any one of them to anyone intelligent enough to maintain an anti-virus program, to refrain from downloading and installing stuff willy nilly, and to not surf at risky sites.  My only problem with OS X is its ties to overpriced hardware and the $129 upgrade every 18 months (of course, nobody's putting a gun to your head here).

well maybe you like being f*cked in the ass by apple, sign of gayta  :roll:

Maybe your friend likes bahtsechs too.  Why else would he purchase a two year old tech. product?
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 30, 2007, 08:26:33 AM
Does anyone know if they did that with Vista? Probably not, huh?

Of course not. But hasn't someone at MS said that the next version WILL lose all legacy support?
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 30, 2007, 08:36:55 AM
well maybe you like being f*cked in the ass by apple, sign of gayta  :roll:

Maybe your friend likes bahtsechs too.  Why else would he purchase a two year old tech. product?

Whatever dude. Apple didn't have any information on their website that they were going to be releasing a new model. Its really f*cked up. Can you sit there and tell me that you would be happy if you bought and ipod only to find out a few weeks later that apple released a new model 2x the capacity of yours for the same price? Can you? What is wrong with you people?  :-k
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 30, 2007, 09:36:14 AM
Whatever dude. Apple didn't have any information on their website that they were going to be releasing a new model. Its really f*cked up. Can you sit there and tell me that you would be happy if you bought and ipod only to find out a few weeks later that apple released a new model 2x the capacity of yours for the same price? Can you? What is wrong with you people?  :-k

Happy?  No, but I wouldn't blame the manufacturer for my poor timing either.  At some point all electronics are superseded by superior (often cheaper) products, and somebody will get stuck buying it shortly before this happens.  The only way that Apple could avoid this scenario is to pull the soon-to-be-obsolete product from store shelves, wait six months, and then start selling the new device.  I base my purchases on the value I receive for my money on the day of purchase (or shortly thereafter, considering retailer and credit card price guarantees), so it doesn't really matter what it costs at a later date.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 30, 2007, 09:55:26 AM
Does anyone know if they did that with Vista? Probably not, huh?

Of course not. But hasn't someone at MS said that the next version WILL lose all legacy support?

Perhaps. I stopped listening to anything spewed by Microsoft years ago. If someone from MS did say that, they are the smartest employee MS has on the payroll.

I have never had a virus, or spyware, or gotten ripped off, or anything of the sort. I have been using XP. Without anti-virus and spyware software. I use my credit card online all the time.

You're lucky. Better go ahead and knock on some wood right about now.

well maybe you like being f*cked in the ass by apple, sign of gayta  :roll:

Maybe your friend likes bahtsechs too.  Why else would he purchase a two year old tech. product?

Whatever dude. Apple didn't have any information on their website that they were going to be releasing a new model. Its really f*cked up. Can you sit there and tell me that you would be happy if you bought and ipod only to find out a few weeks later that apple released a new model 2x the capacity of yours for the same price? Can you? What is wrong with you people?  :-k

This shit happens all the time in the electronics industry. That's just the nature of the business. A person has no place buying an electronic device if they can't mentally deal with the fact that a newer, better, cheaper model will soon replace it. Your friend sounds like a tool for thinking he got "screwed" by Apple.

By his logic, I should never have bought a new computer to begin with. Further, I should never buy another one for the rest of my life. GOD FORBID someone comes out with a better model and throws the last model I bought into the discount bin at 50% off. I'm thinking now I should just sell my computer while it's still the top model so Apple doesn't rape me like they did your friend. How dare they?  :roll:
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 30, 2007, 10:05:59 AM

I have never had a virus, or spyware, or gotten ripped off, or anything of the sort. I have been using XP. Without anti-virus and spyware software. I use my credit card online all the time.

You're lucky. Better go ahead and knock on some wood right about now.


I entirely doubt he's serious.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on November 30, 2007, 10:09:18 AM
No, I am serious. I really don't understand HOW people get viruses and spyware so easily. And get surprised I've never gotten any. It's very easy to avoid.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 30, 2007, 10:11:09 AM
Apple could have at least let people know that a new model was coming out. I understand how the electronic industry is; always releasing better and faster products. But at least other electronics companies let the customer know when they are going to release their new product.

This same thing happened with the iphone. Apple makes a price drop out of nowhere and screws a bunch of people. I guess everyone who bought I phone at launch were tools too?  :-k
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 30, 2007, 10:13:11 AM
No, I am serious. I really don't understand HOW people get viruses and spyware. It's very easy to avoid.

Of course it is. The only reason I get viruses and spyware is because I share a computer with people who are not as knowledgable as I am in avoiding that stuff.

It's also why my HD has like 4000 Yahoo games. >_<
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Necromancer on November 30, 2007, 10:22:02 AM
No, I am serious. I really don't understand HOW people get viruses and spyware so easily. And get surprised I've never gotten any. It's very easy to avoid.

Same here - no problems and I haven't had a virus or spyware scanner for almost two years.  Keeping software updated and avoiding unexpected email, unscrupulous web sites, and warez can help keep a computer remarkably clean.

Apple could have at least let people know that a new model was coming out. I understand how the electronic industry is; always releasing better and faster products. But at least other electronics companies let the customer know when they are going to release their new product.

This same thing happened with the iphone. Apple makes a price drop out of nowhere and screws a bunch of people. I guess everyone who bought I phone at launch were tools too?  :-k

No, just those that pissed and moaned about the price drop.  If it wasn't worth what they paid, then why in the f*ck did they buy it?  Official advanced warning on new product launches would be nice, but it isn't exactly good for sales.  Unofficial speculation on the sixth gen. ipods specifications and price was all over the internet, available to anyone willing to do a bit of research.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 30, 2007, 10:32:35 AM
Unofficial speculation on the sixth gen. ipods specifications and price was all over the internet, available to anyone willing to do a bit of research.

BUT LOOKING UP THAT STUFFF IS ACTUALLY SIMILAR TO WORK! OMIGOSH!  :shock:

Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 30, 2007, 10:36:44 AM
No, I am serious. I really don't understand HOW people get viruses and spyware so easily. And get surprised I've never gotten any. It's very easy to avoid.

Same here - no problems and I haven't had a virus or spyware scanner for almost two years.  Keeping software updated and avoiding unexpected email, unscrupulous web sites, and warez can help keep a computer remarkably clean.

I guess I should mention I did have virus protection at the time (AVG). Didn't protect me enough, apparently.

I should also mention I ought to be able to surf for porn in peace.  :P

Quote
Apple could have at least let people know that a new model was coming out. I understand how the electronic industry is; always releasing better and faster products. But at least other electronics companies let the customer know when they are going to release their new product.

This same thing happened with the iphone. Apple makes a price drop out of nowhere and screws a bunch of people. I guess everyone who bought I phone at launch were tools too?  :-k

No, just those that pissed and moaned about the price drop.  If it wasn't worth what they paid, then why in the f*ck did they buy it? 

No kidding. Every product comes down in price after launch. I will grant that the iPhone price cut came fairly quickly, but you reap what you sow when you buy a product on launch day. Anyone doing so needs to know what is in store for them--inevitable disappointment when the price comes down--and be able to deal with such feelings when it occurs. It's irrelevant when the price cut happens, because you know that it will happen. That's why you will NEVER, EVER see me buy ANYTHING on launch. I am typically running 6 months, maybe even a YEAR in certain cases behind the current premium technology. For two reasons: so most of the bugs are ironed out by the time I get my paws on it, and so the price has come down and stabilized.

I heard about one lady who wrote a f*cking letter to Apple claiming she was in "financial distress" because of the iPhone price cut... Woah, hold on a sec. EXCUSE ME? WHAT THE f*ck? She bought the f*cking thing, didn't she? She knew what it was costing her, right? It didn't suddenly cost her more after they cut the price. If it was causing her financial distress after the price cut, it was causing her problems BEFORE the price cut, in which case she couldn't afford it to begin with and shouldn't have bought one. Apple didn't mug you, take your money, and force an iPhone into your pocket. Start taking responsibility for your actions, for crissake.

Tools? Definitely.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Kitsunexus on November 30, 2007, 10:54:23 AM
Tools? Definitely.

AGAIN SCREWDRIVER OR BELT SANDER!? 0_o
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Turbo D on November 30, 2007, 11:54:12 AM
you guys are right.  :)
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 30, 2007, 01:10:47 PM
What are .PIF files?  Every once in awhile I'll get them attached to some random SPAM e-mail.  I download it and double click on it and nothing happens.  I do the same with EXE files that are attached to certain SPAM e-mails as well.  Again, nothing.  What am I doing wrong?  Maybe I need to open these in Windows since my Mac isn't good enough to run them?  f*cking Mac, can't even open a god damned PIF file.  Weak!
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on November 30, 2007, 01:13:28 PM
Hahahaha, PIF files. I totally forgot about those. Does windows still use PIF files?

Those are, like, sooooooo Windows 3.0. I remember having to use the PIF Editor to set up PIFs so my DOS apps would run correctly under Windows.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on December 01, 2007, 01:31:10 AM
PIF files are like shortcuts.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on December 01, 2007, 07:11:22 AM
Is that all they are now?

In the Windows 3.0 days you had to set up DOS applications to run with the PIF Editor. It presented you with a dialog box where you could set memory requirements, video mode, EMS/XMS memory modes, etc. If you didn't do this your DOS programs would likely not run. These settings were saved in .PIF files.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: FM-77 on December 01, 2007, 08:55:15 AM
Yeah that's what it is. But most of these settings can be ignored now, since the program probably won't work anyway. Windows has no DOS support, except from an emulator that works poorly.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: Joe Redifer on December 01, 2007, 09:42:13 AM
So why am I getting EXE and PIF files in junk e-mails?  I suppose they are viruses or some such nonsense.
Title: Re: Has Apple Lost Its Way?
Post by: nat on December 01, 2007, 12:04:18 PM
No question.