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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: elnino on January 13, 2008, 08:49:37 PM
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Someone has already mentioned this rumor in a previous topic but I couldn't find it and I think the issue is big enough to be discussed in an own topic.
A few weeks ago, I decided to download some ISOs from the net and play these fake ass disks instead of the original ones since I wanted to keep the games which cost me $200+ in utmost uber mint condition. Yesterday, I was happily playing some SCD games with my Interface unit when I felt like playing some Sylphia. I inserted the ISO, watched the whole intro sequence (no problems so far) and was surprised about the huge loading time for the title screen afterwards. Then I realized that the disk wasn't spinning around anymore. I went back to the system card screen and tried to load again but the disk didn't start to turn around. I thought the ISO was f*cked up and tried a few original games as well as a music CD but none of them was working. I can't even manually choose a track different from 0 with the buttons on the console which is normally possible regardless whether the system succeeds to access the track or not. Usually, you hear a short klick when you press run and the disk starts spinning but since "playing" that ISO, there is a constant buzz instead.
This incident makes me think that those stinkin' ISOs destroyed my lovely hardware in some way. Has anyone experienced something similar or has an idea why this can happen in the first place?
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Yeah I've noticed that discs burned from ISO do run like ass. I have found that they do run a little better
if copied directly from the original media, however.
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It's a common problem and is likely due to a poorly made rip or shitty media (or at least media that your particular drive doesn't like). Is the laser sled cranked all the way to the end? That's usually what happens when playing isos and can be easily fixed by manually moving the laser back to the center. Disassembly may be required if you can't get it to move with just your finger - don't force it or you'll strip the gears.
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that's a sad story and i hope you'll be able to fix it acc. necromancer's advice. but still i very wonder, how a cd-r is able to crash a cd-rom drive?!? is it because jittering, since sloppy made cd-rs tend to jitter a lot, so the laser mechanism (sledd) get vexed and doesn't know anymore where to go. but why it doesn't reset itself after a power off/on?
the other story could be, that the reflection is different to a normal cd-rom and then affecs the laser receiver itself.
i also read in another thread, that it's a requirement to burn the cd-rs on the lowest speed just possible, best would be 1~2x, to avoid such troubles. the type of cd-r may also have an impact.
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here's a qoute from assember (assembler board):
The cd-rom in the duo is inferior in alomst every way and WILL fail.
In my opinion, using CDR will probably wear out the drive faster.
If you habe to use CDR, use it at 2x or 1x if possible and use
a quality media designed for archiving.
I would direct you to buy a real game rather than waste $10 on media
that won't last morew than ten years anyway.
though he's talking about the duo cd-rom, so i think it counts the same as for the old cd-rom.
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I have experienced this very same problem as a matter of fact. And now because of this my system does not always seem to work as well as it should. Half the games i own (original copies mind you) now dont ever make it past the title screen or opening cinema. And this all started happening only after using burned copies.
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I have a hard time playing CD-Rs on my PCE CD Interface Unit. Either the CD won't boot, will boot but freeze at loading parts, or just has really slow loading. My Duo plays them fine for the most part, but I try not to use CD-Rs on them because of the horror stories.
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Well that is a good idea, do not use them on your duo, speaking from personal experience cause now sometimes mine works and sometimes it doesnt. Recently got Y's IV but cant get to load past the opening cinema. Other games that have problems ever since playing a few burned games on my duo include Dungeon Explorer II and Dracula X. Other games I have work fine, at least for now.
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sounds like a stuck laser. Have you tried opening your TG16 and jogging the spiral gear until the laser is free?
this happened to me several times. A genuine JP gate of thunder does it to me.
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No I have not tried that bit I will go it do it right now and see if that works!
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Just popped in Y's IV and it still does the same damn thing its always done. Gets right to the part where Adol and Dogi sail up to the port and are obvoiusly talking but for some strange reason I cant hear any voice work and than it just freezes. But than I pop in other games and they work fine but not always. I think my PC Engine Duo is just screwed up now, probly will have to get a new one.
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Try warming it up.
Play a Hucard for maybe 30minutes to an hour
then try the disk again. Its possible that some connections just need to warm up.
((((I Hope)))))
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I hope so to but at this point I am pessimistic. This happened like three months ago and now my system just hasnt been the same. Im convinced the ISO's screwed it up. But its possible coulb be shitty media. My friend gave em to me for free cause they wouldnt play on his system(he has the RX as i beleive its called). The burned games in question are Dracula X,Super Raiden,Sapphire,and Strider. No problems at first but after many repeated plays through Sapphire and Dracula X I noticed that Dracula X took forever to load and sometime froze. The next thing I noticed was when I played my US copy of Dungeon Explorer II. Sometimes froze during the opening scene and sometimes played but without the sound during opening scene and other times worked fine. Now it doesnt. And YS IV doesnt either. :cry:
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I think my PC Engine Duo is just screwed up now, probly will have to get a new one.
If you're handy with electronic stuff (or know someone who is), then you could replace the laser assembly rather than getting another Duo, which could crap out in short order and leave you in the same predicament. The Duos use a HOP-M3, available from electronix and other places.
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I think the CD-R problem has two main aspects:
1: getting the laser stuck past it's ability to bring itself back. This is a defect in the design (shouldn't be possible, but is) and is easily fixed.
2: CD-Rs require more work from the PCE to read, and hasten the death of lasers. The shit was 15-20 years old already, you just put the final nail in the coffin. Everything dies, that's the way it goes. By a time an Xbox 360 is 20 years old it will have need to have been rebuilt 12-15 times, from what I can see, so the PCE is a real champ.
I've only spent a decent amount of time on two CD-Rs; the translated Y's IV, and a remix I did of LoT. I had read problems once in a while, more than retail games, but it wasn't that bad. So in moderation I think its fine. If a CD-R kills your system instantly, it must have been pretty far gone.
So have a spare HOP3 laying around, and avoid CD-Rs as much as possible.
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That's usually what happens when playing isos and can be easily fixed by manually moving the laser back to the center.
I've opened the CD-Rom and manually put the laser in pretty much every possible position but all that changed was the frequency of the buzz. #-o
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That's usually what happens when playing isos and can be easily fixed by manually moving the laser back to the center.
I've opened the CD-Rom and manually put the laser in pretty much every possible position but all that changed was the frequency of the buzz. #-o
This is what happened to my Dreamcasts, that I mainly played homebrew on. Sorry man. :(
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I understood that CD drive laser strength was constant. The laser unit doesn't put out more power to read CDRs, it just has to do a lot more reading and re-reading of the disc. The laser itself doesn't get any more wear, per se. It's probably something mechanical that moves the laser head into position that's screwed.
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elnino: ISOs or rather CD-Rs didn't instantly kill your CD unit. Which addon unit do you have? I assuming it's the original japanese version since you mentioned "interface" unit. Mine just instantly died a couple of months back as well (no CD-R's). Tatsujin mentioned the gear thing. I'm gonna take a look at that.
The only thing I've ever seen was when the Duo units start to go out and and it has a hard time reading a CD-R(can be a CD also), the laser module will get stuck or "parked" to the right. In that case you have to open the unit and manually rotate the spindle shaft until the module becomes unstuck.
If the CD doesn't spin at all, then you have a totally different and unrelated problem (pertaining to CD-Rs). My original Duo unit stopped spinning CDs. The motor was fine because I could manually put Vcc to and watch it spin, so something else on the controller area when out.
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If the CD doesn't spin at all, then you have a totally different and unrelated problem (pertaining to CD-Rs).
Just to clarify, if the laser is stuck to the right the CD will not spin at all *until* the laser comes back to the center. The CD spindle will only spin if it detects a CD from the inner most position.
If the laser is stuck, it doesn't have to be moved more than about 2mm. Once you do that the system can bring it self back to center, which is a normal part of the start-up process.
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If the CD doesn't spin at all, then you have a totally different and unrelated problem (pertaining to CD-Rs).
Just to clarify, if the laser is stuck to the right the CD will not spin at all *until* the laser comes back to the center. The CD spindle will only spin if it detects a CD from the inner most position.
If the laser is stuck, it doesn't have to be moved more than about 2mm. Once you do that the system can bring it self back to center, which is a normal part of the start-up process.
I was referring to if he didn't have the "parked" module issue.
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as i did understand elnino(-kouhai) the right, he was using the cd-rom (which is indeed a jap. white one conected to the IFU30) for a long time now and there wasn't a problem like that while using original copies. then suddenly while using the 1st time a cd-r, the system crashes after just a couple of minutes to total loss.
this is either a very badly accident and also could happened so with an original copy, Ooor there is really a correlation to the cd-r which instantly gave the system the death blow, which anyway would happened soon or later (rather sooner i guess).
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Ooor there is really a correlation to the cd-r which instantly gave the system the death blow,
Hey! Now you're just adding fuel to fear and dubious speculation :wink:
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I haven't had any problems with cd-rs that I made myself. I used one that a friend made me and it made the laser get stuck on one end. I just hand-banged it back to the center and everything was cool.
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The CD-Rom in question is the original japanese version. The notorious yellow gear has some teeth missing but the system has been working so far, the missing teeth resulted only in additional loading time because the the connection between the yellow wheel and the one next to it hasn't been optimal obviously. Unfortunately, I can't tell if there are more missing teeth now then there were before this incident which leaves me with two options:
1) Instant death: The ISO screwed up my laser and would probably have caused an explosion of the system and maybe some other calamities if I hadn't shut off the power.
2) More missing teeth: The ISO made the CD-Rom work a lot more harder reading the disk, thus some more teeth flew off the gear which is now the reason nothing boots up at all.
Either way I'm thinking about what I should do with the next console. On one hand, I'd like to continue playing burned disks to protect the expensive original disks, as I mentioned before, but also to play some stuff I'm currently developing on the real PC-Engine. On the other hand, I do not want my console to get f*cked up again by those ISO shit. :-k
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You know the only way to test this is to find two mint never-played Duos, open them up and make sure everything is in proper condition, then only play original CD games on one and only ISOs on the other, see which lasts longer.
I don't think it's even possible to find a mint never-played Duo though. :(
Also, I know jack shit about old consoles and CD-R media (and in the words of our beloved Validus, Jack left town) but it really isn't hard to picture a group of collectors sitting in a bar trying to come up with a story to make people avoid CD-Rs like a naked Rosie O'Donnell, thus increasing the prices of the rare original CD games dramatically. It actually sounds like something I'd do if I was a collector. :lol:
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The Last DUO Standing
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I'd like to point out that the ISOs smacked down a CD-Rom unit and not a Duo console. If my second option (more missing teeth) turned out to be the truth, the Duo would be the better choice for playing ISOs because it hasn't such a shitty gear and could probably handle the increased amount of work much better. There may be other issues however, I haven't played any burned disks on my Duo since its cd-rom laser has been resting in peace for quite a while now.
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two options:
1) Instant death: The ISO screwed up my laser and would probably have caused an explosion of the system and maybe some other calamities if I hadn't shut off the power.
2) More missing teeth: The ISO made the CD-Rom work a lot more harder reading the disk, thus some more teeth flew off the gear which is now the reason nothing boots up at all.
Well, as I said, the motor doesn't spin until the laser has moved back to center. If the laser doesn't move, then that is the problem, not the laser per say. You could crack the lens in two, but the transport should still move to the center and try to read the CD.
Its highly unlikely that CD-Rs have the ability to smash gears from 10mm away, and as I understand it most of the "extra work" that the drive has to do is far more likely to tax the laser's focusing mechanism than the gears since replacing the HOP3 seems to fix people's problems, and the HOP3 doesn't include any gears...does it?
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Elnino my old CDRom unit had the EXACT same problem, it played regular games fine (getting stuck on a load screen occasionally until I tapped the system) then when I started playing a Xak III burn I noticed it would get stuck on loading screens more and more until it just wouldn't load anymore. After opening it up I found one of the gears was missing teeth. Fortunately I knew a guy with a busted laser assembly who sold me his gear and it fixed the problem permanently, but it was annoying as hell.
My assessment was that the gear was already a little f*cked up since I had to tap the system once in a while to get past a load screen, and that maybe the burn of Xak III was on shitty media and was causing the laser assembly to grind the gears when it pushed it all the way out where it would sometimes get stuck. I burned it again when I got my new gear and had no further problems.
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so it seems, that the ISO/CD-Rs accelerate the problem with the flawy gear wheel i described in my researches few weeks ago. most likely as thought before, it just gives the system the death blow, since it get instantly multiple stressed with the use of CD-Rs.
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According to NFG, the original white CD units are known to just instantly die. He's got 5 bad ones and 1 semi working one. As to mine, the gears fine - just the laser has a really hard time reading from tracks other than 1 or 2. Mr. Macdonald said his died instantly as well, and when took'n apart, the grounding plate had shifted or some sort of related issue. He removed the plate within the CD unit and the works now.
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So is the problem just how the disc is burned?
I'm asking because- in the case of Space Fantasy Zone- I am aware that the only way to obtain this game is by a CDR. Has anyone ever purchased a CDR of this off of ravengames, and if so did it screw with your hardware? Is there a better place to score this being that a fool like myself would screw up an ISO burn?
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PM sent.
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two options:
1) Instant death: The ISO screwed up my laser and would probably have caused an explosion of the system and maybe some other calamities if I hadn't shut off the power.
2) More missing teeth: The ISO made the CD-Rom work a lot more harder reading the disk, thus some more teeth flew off the gear which is now the reason nothing boots up at all.
Its highly unlikely that CD-Rs have the ability to smash gears from 10mm away, and as I understand it most of the "extra work" that the drive has to do is far more likely to tax the laser's focusing mechanism than the gears since replacing the HOP3 seems to fix people's problems, and the HOP3 doesn't include any gears...does it?
No it does not. That is why I decided to cancel my order from Electronix.com when I noticed that the HOP-M3 did not come with the gears as well.
I just bought my first Turbo Duo last week after finding a local seller close to me who put it up for sale on e-bay. I got a pretty half decent deal on it and I got the box, manuals and about 40 CD-R games. I put in Dracula X and it worked great up until the first level boss. The system would not load the boss area and froze black on my TV screen. I noticed that the disc stopped spinning and when I looked inside the laser was indeed as far to the right as possible and couldn't come back on it's own. Upon realizing this, I knew it wasn't so much an electrical problem but a mechanical flaw. I opened up my system and removed the plastic cover which sits over the lens. I then forcefully moved the main drive gear (not the worm gear on the motor or the rack gear on the HOP-M3) with a small flat head screw driver. With the power connected and my finger to push the button down to make the system think the door had been securely closed, the lens moved back on it's own.
I then added grease to all the gear teeth (worm, ring gears and rack) and cleaned the lens itself with rubbing alcohol and put everything back together MINUS the black plastic lens guide/cover.
(http://www.teamfremont.com/images/DuoRepairGuts1.jpg)
When I restarted the game, it worked FLAWLESSLY...I was very impressed. But to my disappointment, when I tried some other games the same thing would happen.
I have a few original Turbo CD games that I am going to try later tonight that I borrowed from a friend and see what gives. I might have no choice but to buy original games which should be no problem because I have the money to do so...but I'm going to fool around a little more at trying to copy some games using the various kinds of CD-R and post my findings as I go along.
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Awesome, that'll be nice information to have. (Welcome to the forums, BTW.)
Just be sure when you start reporting on media you create a new thread for it.
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Thank you and will do.
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I am now officially frightened of CD-Rs. 8-[
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Be not afraid, good sir. Demons and superstitions do not genuine concern make.
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Be not afraid, good sir. Demons and superstitions do not genuine concern make.
hehe. But I swear the CD-R monsters hide in my closet at night tempting me to burn ISOs so I can finally ruin my Duo once and for all.
god help me please... :pray::pray:
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Be not afraid, good sir. Demons and superstitions do not genuine concern make.
hehe. But I swear the CD-R monsters hide in my closet at night tempting me to burn ISOs so I can finally ruin my Duo once and for all.
god help me please... :pray::pray:
LOL
Everyone have problems with Cd-r someday... sometime...
But still exist a 15 years old optical unit without imperfections?
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CD-R > everything else
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CD-R > everything else
Floppy disc > CD-R
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Liquid Mercury Pwns all other console and computer formats!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Mercury_memory.jpg)
That's over 1000 characters of memory there!
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Floppy disc > CD-R
Only if they're the original eight inchers. :wink:
Liquid Mercury Pwns all other console and computer formats!
UNIVAC powa! :D
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Ooooo.... Punch cards make me all woozy inside. *swoon*
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That's over 1000 characters of memory there!
does it run with blast processing as well?
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That's over 1000 characters of memory there!
does it run with blast processing as well?
At 40-50C operational temperature, if it doesn't have Blast Processing, it will at least make you feel like you are in a Blast Furnace.
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Screw you guys, it's all about
BUBBLE MEMORY!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_System)
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"My brain is on par with the bubble system" -Kitsunexus
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"My brain is on par with the bubble system" -Kitsunexus
I need to change my sig back to that, it's so true! :lol:
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yeah..megaman doesn't rock.