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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: nectarsis on February 18, 2008, 02:30:05 PM
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Just checking everyones top 10 favs :mrgreen:
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1. Ys Book I and II
2. Ys IV
3. Neutopia II
4. Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes
5. Cosmic Fantasy 2
6. Ys III
7. Neutopia
8. Might & Magic III
9. Dungeon Master: Theron's Quest
10. Exile
I'm too lame to have yet played any Japanese RPGs (other than translated Ys IV), so I'm sticking to Turbo RPGs. As such, I had to include a few adventure games with RPG elements, else it would've been impossible to come up with ten titles.
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This includes every kind of RPG right and not just typical turn-based?
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I think anything remotely RPG-ish is fair game. Dungeon Explorer, etc....
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Alphabetically,
Anearth Fantasy Stories
Blood Gear
Cosmic Fantasy 2
Dragon Knight II
Dungeon Explorer II
Efera & Jiliora
Madou Monogatari
Tenshi no Uta
Tenshi no Uta II
Ys Book I & II
There are at least thirty others that I've enjoyed. The system is remarkably deep in this area.
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I cannot rank favorites. I really like Ys 1,2,3,4 and Legendary Axe 1 and 2 and Dragon's Curse and Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder and Galaga 88/90 and many, many more.
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I cannot rank favorites. I really like Ys 1,2,3,4 and Legendary Axe 1 and 2 and Dragon's Curse and Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder and Galaga 88/90 and many, many more.
Wow, you're pretty liberal with the RPG label.
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Yeah. I play the role of the pilot in Gate of Thunder, etc. :D
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Yeah I've long said that RPGs aren't just limited to your typical turn based battle games. I consider John Madden Football to be one of the mightiest RPGs of all time since you play the role of an entire football team!
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Order of the Griffon
Dragon Slayer
Ys III
Ys I & II
Neutopia
those are my faves. I like all of the other ones too but I LOVE these.
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Don't have time to list 10 at the moment-
TM/FEOE: Fuun Kabukiden
TM/FEOE II: Manjimaru
Ys I & II
Ys IV
Neo Metal Fantasy
Dungeon Explorer
Dungeon Explorer II
Dragon's Curse
Legend of Xanadu II
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Yeah. I play the role of the pilot Esty humper in Gate of Thunder, etc. :D
Fixed.
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Yeah. I play the role of the pilot Esty humper in Gate of Thunder, etc. :D
As a side-note: Being french-canadian, I couldn't stop but snicker at the name "Esty"...
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Pourquoi? Please enlighten this idiot.
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"Esty" would be pronounced like "estie" which is a French-Canadian swear word. "Estie" is a mangled form of "Ostie" (which is the communal wafers given during mass). Most french-canadian swear-words are religious in nature.
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Is there a word for "baby jesus' first poo"?
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Thanks for the explanation, td741. French-Canadians crack me up; who else would turn the host and tabernacle into swear words?
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Is there a word for "baby jesus' first poo"?
Sorry, I think English has the monopoly on divine excrement.
Thanks for the explanation, td741. French-Canadians crack me up; who else would turn the host and tabernacle into swear words?
Well they are slightly mangled versions of the words... I guess it helps keep kids from snickering when they hear the original words used in the original context.
Err... Back to the topic?
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Most french-canadian swear-words are religious in nature.
Tabernac!! :P
OK, but yeah...back to topic I guess. :-s
I'll have to think about my top 10 some more. I'll come back to edit in a bit.
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Sticking with pure RPGs...
1. Ys Book I & II
Was the first CD-ROM2 game I played on my TG-CD. Amazing experience.
2. Ys III - Wanderers From Ys
Of course, loved this one after playing I & II.
3. Cosmic Fantasy 2
Crap load of cut scenes made this one my next fav to the Ys series. Pissed me off that Van's girl died however.
4. Dungeon Explorer II
Amazing music and one of the best Super CD-ROM2 intros. I used the intro to show off my surround speaker system back when I was a kid.
5. Dragon Slayer: The Legend Of Heroes
Music, cut scenes...all of the digitized voice...what's not to like?
6. Exile: Wicked Phenomenon
Loved the voice acting in this series...way too funny. Gameplay not so much.
7. Exile
Again, voice acting was a hoot....gameplay was a bitch.
8. Dungeon Master - Theron's Quest
One of the few RPGs of this type that I've ever beaten.
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1) Ys Book I & II
2) Dragons Curse
3) Dungeon Explorer II
4) Exile
5) Dungeon Explorer
6) Neutopia II
7) Neutopia
8) Cosmic Fantasy II
9) Cadash
10) Lady Sword
Had Ys III but long ago- harder to judge without playing it recently. Recently got Shape Shifter & Theron's Quest- can't properly judge yet. I know Dragon's Curse isn't rpg but it has enough elements that I'll include it- though I was tempted to include Son Son II but that'd be stretching it.
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People who deliberately go all stupid with the RPG label are really irritating. RPGs are my genre of choice for both playing and developing, so it's really annoying as f*ck when someone decides to be a gimpyass with the label. Anyways...
1. Neutopia
2. Cosmic Fantasy 2
3. Ys I & II
4. Exile
5. Cadash
6. Neutopia II
7. Ys IV
8. Mysterious Song
9. Exile: Wicked Phenomenon
10. Final Lap Twin
That about covers it.
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Cadash must get an honorable mention from me - great music and very well done gfx and sound fx. Only drawback is that I wish it was easier.
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Only drawback is that I wish it was easier.
What's that you say, TORU?
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What's that you say, TORU?
Dunno what you mean, AGAG.
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Is there a word for "baby jesus' first poo"?
Holy shit?
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1.) Beyond Shadowgate
2- Order of the Griffon
3- Ys Book 1 n' 2
4- Ys IV
5- Gulliver Boy
6- Neutopia II
7- Dungeon Explorer II
8- Dungeon Master TQ
9- Double Dungeons
10- Mysterious Song (Waiting in anticipation!!)
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1)Ys III
2)Shapeshifter
3)Ys I + II
4)Dungeon explorer
I honestly do have quite a few in my collection but these are the only ones i've spent time with! There is a wide gap between first and second place on my list.
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Ahhh I forgot about Final Lap Twin RPG mode. I'd have to revise my list.
Does that piss you off Rove that I put Dragon's Curse on my list?
No one's tallying this- it's all good.
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Does that piss you off Rove that I put Dragon's Curse on my list?
Heh no, it's almost an RPG. I'm referring to people who are patently absurd about it.
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What do you consider absurd?
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What do you consider absurd?
A shooter is not an RPG. A straight platformer is not an RPG. A pinball game is certainly not an RPG. Tetris and other games like it are so far from RPGs that it's not even funny. Yet these four types of games are often called RPGs by certain types of weirdos.
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Legend of xanadu 2, from the opening music to the last boss fight, this game is just awesome.
Anearth fantasy stories, the only thing i have to say about this is non linear.
Dungeon explorer 2, does a good job of making you feel like your on an adventure and one with allot of action.
Ys IV
Exile 2
Bloodgear
Ys III
Cadash
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LOL....very true. Farthest I usually stray is strategy games.
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Since I know you've all been dying to hear my picks, and I want to make sure you can all sleep well tonight:
1. Dungeon Explorer - The most fun ever packed into a credit card-sized game cartridge.
2. Anearth Fantasy Stories - Delegated to #2 only by the nostalgic attachment I have for DE.
3. The Legend of Xanadu I - Just started playing this, I'm a good few areas into it, but from the spectacular graphics, cinemas, gameplay and killer PSG tunes this is surely one of the best the system has to offer.
4. Dungeon Explorer II - One of those rare cases a sequel is of almost the same caliber in most areas as it's prequel, and superior in others.
5. Beyond Shadowgate - Love this game. ICOM at it finest.
6. Shape Shifter - Sidescrolling action with RPG elements, a hybrid. Another ICOM classic.
7. Ys III: Wanderers from Ys - Don't believe the lies, this is actually the best Ys game on the Turbo.
8. Wonderboy in Monsterland (Bikkuriman World) - Another platfomer/RPG hybrid. Best console port of the arcade classic save for direct emulation despite the changed boss characters.
9. Wonderboy/Dragon's Curse - Picks up directly where Monsterland left off, literally. Probably technically superior to Monsterland, but I personally like Monsterland better. More platformer/RPG hybrid goodness.
10. Ys I - Part one (Book I) of the series deserves an honorable mention, though it's not as spectacular as many will lead you to believe. Still, a fine game definitely deserving of a top 10 spot.
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nat you really need to play through Ys II if you still haven't yet! Ys I is a decent game by itself, but it's not truly appreciated until completing it's second part ;) .
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People who deliberately go all stupid with the RPG label are really irritating. RPGs are my genre of choice for both playing and developing, so it's really annoying as f*ck when someone decides to be a gimpyass with the label.
Yet you have games like Exile, Exile 2 and Cadash on your list? :roll:
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People who deliberately go all stupid with the RPG label are really irritating. RPGs are my genre of choice for both playing and developing, so it's really annoying as f*ck when someone decides to be a gimpyass with the label.
Yet you have games like Exile, Exile 2 and Cadash on your list? :roll:
That's what I was thinking, though I was more concerned about Neutopia since I generally refer to Zelda-like games as "adventure" instead of RPG.
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Yet you have games like Exile, Exile 2 and Cadash on your list? :roll:
Since I haven't played 10 true RPGs on the console, I had to throw in some "games with RPG features". All of these are hybrids.
Exile and Exile II both fit the description of an RPG. Cadash and the Neutopias don't, but they are close enough to be labeled hybrid-genre.
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6. Cosmic Fantasy (PLAYED ONLY BREIFLY WISH I HAD IT)
I couldn't get very far into this one. It's too damn primitive looking and the language barrier doesn't help, but I really enjoy Cosmic Fantasy 2, so I'll probably try to tackle it again someday.
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nat you really need to play through Ys II if you still haven't yet! Ys I is a decent game by itself, but it's not truly appreciated until completing it's second part ;) .
I already did, I finished it a little while back. I see them as seperate games linked by a "bridge cinema".
Book II had overall a much stronger soundtrack, but the desgin of Solomon Shrine was atrocious. That pretty much killed it for me right there. There was a time near the end of the game when I knew where I needed to go back to, but it took me like 3 hours (literally) to find my way because of all the over, under, through, around, back bullshit.
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nat you really need to play through Ys II if you still haven't yet! Ys I is a decent game by itself, but it's not truly appreciated until completing it's second part ;) .
I already did, I finished it a little while back. I see them as seperate games linked by a "bridge cinema".
Book II had overall a much stronger soundtrack, but the desgin of Solomon Shrine was atrocious. That pretty much killed it for me right there. There was a time near the end of the game when I knew where I needed to go back to, but it took me like 3 hours (literally) to find my way because of all the over, under, through, around, back bullshit.
Haha we just talked about this in chat... I totally agree with nat here... I thought the last area of ys II was boring as hell.
Ys III has much better flow to it and for me was much more enjoyable overall.
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Exile and Exile II both fit the description of an RPG. Cadash and the Neutopias don't, but they are close enough to be labeled hybrid-genre.
So what makes an RPG an RPG? Games that let you buy shit at stores? That would seem to be the deciding factor, as Cadash has levels and experience.
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So what makes an RPG an RPG? Games that let you buy shit at stores? That would seem to be the deciding factor, as Cadash has levels and experience.
Cadash and Neutopia also let you "buy shit at stores". But those aren't technically RPGs.
What defines a console RPG:
1. The story is focused on the characters and how they change, with secondary emphasis on the environment and situations around them and how they change. The video game equivalent of a novel, as opposed to a short story.
2. The player characters experience permanent growth; it can never be lost once gained except under certain exceptionally rare circumstances.
There are other minor factors involved as well, but these are the two real deciding factors. For a game to be classified as a console RPG, it must have a strong grasp of both points. Cadash and the Neutopias fit the second criteria but fail the first (Neutopia II almost matches the first but not quite). Shooters fail both criteria. Exile and Exile II meet both criteria, though their representation of the first criteria is somewhat weaker than normal (Exile has a much stronger representation than its sequel).
One minor point of note is that the player characters normally have to be directly involved in dialogue. That is to say, they can't generally be mute characters...it usually hurts the first criteria. The original Final Fantasy is a prime example of a violation of this minor criteria. That game in particular sits on the border between what is and is not an RPG...the only thing that pushes it over to the RPG side of the fence is a liberal interpretation of "character change".
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I don't get how anyone who plays video games can NOT be clear on what a console RPG is, it's pretty obvious that there are straight console RPGs (like Cosmic Fantasy, Dragon Slayer, etc), action-RPGs (Ys, Neutopia II, Blood Gear, Exile), and action games with some light rpg elements (like Cadash).
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I don't get how anyone who plays video games can NOT be clear on what a console RPG is, it's pretty obvious that there are straight console RPGs (like Cosmic Fantasy, Dragon Slayer, etc), action-RPGs (Ys, Neutopia II, Blood Gear, Exile), and action games with some light rpg elements (like Cadash).
When people try to take the phrase literally, almost every game becomes an RPG. I think it's the only genre of games where you can't take its label too literally. As for CF2 and games like it, they're generally referred to as "traditional" RPGs, thought "straight" RPG is a phrase that gets used sometimes too.
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Exile and Exile II both fit the description of an RPG. Cadash and the Neutopias don't, but they are close enough to be labeled hybrid-genre.
So what makes an RPG an RPG? Games that let you buy shit at stores? That would seem to be the deciding factor, as Cadash has levels and experience.
Lords of Thunder lets you buy shit at stores!!
My New #1 is Lords of Thunder!
What about Forgotten Worlds or Downtown Nekketsu monogatari?
Theres ALOT more RPG's on the Duo than I thought!! :-k
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance. Lunar 1's Alex is almost mute, but he has 1 vocal line in the game I think.
What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
To me, games like Exile are most certainly NOT RPGs. Exile 1 can be beaten in less than 2 hours and features extremely weak character development.
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Brave Story for the psp has a mute main character :)
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance. Lunar 1's Alex is almost mute, but he has 1 vocal line in the game I think.
True, but other player characters in Lunar have lines, and tons of them (Ramus, Luna, Nash, Mia, Jessica, Kyle). Ys, however, is difficult to consider an RPG considering there is no player character development and the story isn't about Adol but about the world of Ys. Besides, the "mute" criteria is a minor one...it can be overshadowed by strong character development, which is the case in Lunar. Alex has one single spoken line in the Sega CD version and several lines in the Playstation remake, but the focus on the characters in Lunar is so powerful that it doesn't matter if Alex barely speaks.
Also, it's important to understand that a lot of games that are labeled as RPGs are not actually RPGs.
What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
No. It loses its RPG title and is demoted to a simple adventure game or even a "mob game", which are certainly not RPGs in any sense of the word. The gameplay style doesn't make the game an RPG or not.
To me, games like Exile are most certainly NOT RPGs. Exile 1 can be beaten in less than 2 hours and features extremely weak character development.
Exile has far more character development than Ys. Far more. The time it takes to complete is irrelevant. Furthermore, Exile and Exile II both focus on the main characters of the story. Ys focuses on the world around the main character and not the character himself.
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance. Lunar 1's Alex is almost mute, but he has 1 vocal line in the game I think.
What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
To me, games like Exile are most certainly NOT RPGs. Exile 1 can be beaten in less than 2 hours and features extremely weak character development.
Phantasy Star 1 basically was only "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". But it still feels more epic and like a complete story than the sequel which added a ton more story driving dialogue.
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Actually I just played through Lunar Sega CD and I think Alex had a whopping TWO lines, both vocal! There was one where Galeon killed the white dragon where he screamed something and then there was another one at the end about Luna.
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I don't get how anyone who plays video games can NOT be clear on what a console RPG is, it's pretty obvious that there are straight console RPGs (like Cosmic Fantasy, Dragon Slayer, etc), action-RPGs (Ys, Neutopia II, Blood Gear, Exile), and action games with some light rpg elements (like Cadash).
Word up. Even this ijit has a pretty good handle on how to categorize games, though there's always a few titles that straddle the line between genres.
A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance.
Adol has a line or two during the cinema between Book I and Book II.
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance.
Adol has a line or two during the cinema between Book I and Book II.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't. The only line I can remember from Adol in Ys Book I & II was when he was disquised as a monster at Solomon's Shrine in Ys II and told the guard the secret passcode to get in. He was quite the chitter chatter (compared to other Ys games) in Ys III, but he got quiet again in Dawn of Ys (I think like two lines).
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What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
No. It loses its RPG title and is demoted to a simple adventure game or even a "mob game", which are certainly not RPGs in any sense of the word. The gameplay style doesn't make the game an RPG or not.
OK I realize we're really going off on an tangent with this one, but what about an RPG in Japanese played by an American such as myself? I cannot read any text in the game, yet there is text there. It doesn't matter if there is an epic storyline or if the characters are just saying "bathtub" over and over again, I would never know! Is it still an RPG? (This is one of those "tree falls in the woods" questions).
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What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
No. It loses its RPG title and is demoted to a simple adventure game or even a "mob game", which are certainly not RPGs in any sense of the word. The gameplay style doesn't make the game an RPG or not.
OK I realize we're really going off on an tangent with this one, but what about an RPG in Japanese played by an American such as myself? I cannot read any text in the game, yet there is text there. It doesn't matter if there is an epic storyline or if the characters are just saying "bathtub" over and over again, I would never know! Is it still an RPG? (This is one of those "tree falls in the woods" questions).
Your question can easily be solved with another question. Is a video game not a video game if one does not understand the mechanics of it?
My opinion for what it's not worth and for the record, strategy RPGs are not RPGs. They can have all the character development/storyline/whatever, but they are not RPGs. Not in the sense of traditional J-RPGs which RPG was/is (and rightfully should still be) analogous to. Sure there are hybrids, but hybrids are usually more of one than both. Shining Force a good example.
You've got (j) RPGs, (c) RPGs, action-RPGs, adventure(action-adventure for you EU twits :D ). Neutopia and Zelda falls into the action-adventure genre. Ys III falls into the action-RPG genre. Ys I & II and IV is hard to classify as a straight RPG because of it's action element, but god damn it sure feels more like an RPG than an action-RPG. Then you have strategy RPGs and their sub genre. Jesus Christ. Oh yeah, shooter-RPG (that one for GBA - I forget the name).
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Ok so I'm confused now by nod's definition of an RPG being based on it's story telling. What if a game with absolutely no RPG gameplay elements had a deep story like a normal RPG, like Super Mario Bros. or something, would it be considered an RPG?
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance.
Adol has a line or two during the cinema between Book I and Book II.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't. The only line I can remember from Adol in Ys Book I & II was when he was disquised as a monster at Solomon's Shrine in Ys II and told the guard the secret passcode to get in. He was quite the chitter chatter (compared to other Ys games) in Ys III, but he got quiet again in Dawn of Ys (I think like two lines).
In Ys I & II, there is dialogue text for Adol in the scene where Lilia finds him at the beginning of Ys II. But I think that Adol's dialogue and the couple of lines from Alex in Lunar Sega-CD were added to the english versions.
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What if there was a game that had all of the mechanics of an RPG. Let's say it was exactly like Phantasy Star 1. But there was no real story. The dialog just consisted of "There are more monsters here" or "There is a boss monster at the end of this dungeon". The only thing changed is what the text says. Is it still and RPG?
No. It loses its RPG title and is demoted to a simple adventure game or even a "mob game", which are certainly not RPGs in any sense of the word. The gameplay style doesn't make the game an RPG or not.
OK I realize we're really going off on an tangent with this one, but what about an RPG in Japanese played by an American such as myself? I cannot read any text in the game, yet there is text there. It doesn't matter if there is an epic storyline or if the characters are just saying "bathtub" over and over again, I would never know! Is it still an RPG? (This is one of those "tree falls in the woods" questions).
Your question can easily be solved with another question. Is a video game not a video game if one does not understand the mechanics of it?
My opinion for what it's not worth and for the record, strategy RPGs are not RPGs. They can have all the character development/storyline/whatever, but they are not RPGs. Not in the sense of traditional J-RPGs which RPG was/is (and rightfully should still be) analogous to. Sure there are hybrids, but hybrids are usually more of one than both. Shining Force a good example.
You've got (j) RPGs, (c) RPGs, action-RPGs, adventure(action-adventure for you EU twits :D ). Neutopia and Zelda falls into the action-adventure genre. Ys III falls into the action-RPG genre. Ys I & II and IV is hard to classify as a straight RPG because of it's action element, but god damn it sure feels more like an RPG than an action-RPG. Then you have strategy RPGs and their sub genre. Jesus Christ. Oh yeah, shooter-RPG (that one for GBA - I forget the name).
(c) rpg...classic??
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In Ys I & II, there is dialogue text for Adol in the scene where Lilia finds him at the beginning of Ys II. But I think that Adol's dialogue and the couple of lines from Alex in Lunar Sega-CD were added to the english versions.
That's the part that I was talking about. After a quick look on Youtube, it looks like the same scene is in the Japanese original, though the text is in Japanese, so I could be wrong about who's doing the talking.
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(c) rpg...classic??
Computer RPG. Either western or european style.
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What about Fighter RPGs? Like Flash Hiders?
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Computer RPG. Either western or european style.
Like with cowboys and indians? :)
What about Fighter RPGs? Like Flash Hiders?
I'd say that they're fighting games with some RPG elements, since fighting is 90% of the game.
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What about those card-based RPGs like Phantasy Star Online 3 or whatever it was?
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Card based RPG derivative??
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Computer RPG. Either western or european style.
Like with cowboys and indians? :)
Don't get me started on Westerns!! I would love to see an RPG that was a true Western!
I still need to get LaPlace no Ma!
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Western RPGs are awesome, as much as I love Final Fantasy I think I prefer western style RPGs. We got Might & Magic III and Order of the Griffon though, those two rock super hard (not counting Dungeon Master since they f*cked it up so badly). I wish someone would have ported Eye of the Beholder II or any number of computer RPGs to the Duo instead of stuff like Shadow of the Beast & Loom (even though I like both of those).
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Loom was awesome, but they should have left that on the PC. At least they could've upgraded the graphics for the Duo version beyond EGA (they didn't).
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So what about all of those people who say Shenmue isn't an RPG, even though it clearly is?
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A lot of RPGs have MUTE characters. Ys, for instance.
Adol has a line or two during the cinema between Book I and Book II.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't. The only line I can remember from Adol in Ys Book I & II was when he was disquised as a monster at Solomon's Shrine in Ys II and told the guard the secret passcode to get in. He was quite the chitter chatter (compared to other Ys games) in Ys III, but he got quiet again in Dawn of Ys (I think like two lines).
In Ys I & II, there is dialogue text for Adol in the scene where Lilia finds him at the beginning of Ys II. But I think that Adol's dialogue and the couple of lines from Alex in Lunar Sega-CD were added to the english versions.
Oh yeah, that's right. I think Adol says "Where am I?" and "Right. Lets go." during that part. To be honest though, I never considered that to be a cinema between Ys I and II, but a cinema limited to just Ys II myself.
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So what about all of those people who say Shenmue isn't an RPG, even though it clearly is?
I don't really know much about Shenmue, but from reading the Wikipedia entry, it looks very much like an RPG.
Oh guys...about Ys II...there's another part where Adol speaks...when he's turned into a goon and finds the runaway's hideout. "Wait a second, I am a man. I was turned into a goon by the wizard" or something along those lines.