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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Everblue on September 09, 2008, 11:58:10 PM
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Hi there,
I just bought a pre-modded RGB PC Engine from a well known EBay PC Engine seller. I am very happy with it, great condition, and bright picture - there is one thing that annoys me.
There is vertical white banding every 2 cms or so on the screen, very faint, but visible, especially when there is a large area of the same colour on screen.
I have tried my PC Engine on two different TVs, with identical results.
What could be wrong? Can this be fixed?
Thank you in advance for any help!
E'Blue
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I get this too on my own PC-Engine which I RGB modded myself. I'm sure it means there's some power drain somewhere that could be improved a bit by adding capacitors... but where exactly such a fix could be added, I have no idea.
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I get this too on my own PC-Engine which I RGB modded myself. I'm sure it means there's some power drain somewhere that could be improved a bit by adding capacitors... but where exactly such a fix could be added, I have no idea.
I have asked the same thing to the seller, and this is the reply I got:
"I cannot comment on the lines on your TV, I test these on 2 different TVs and don't see a problem, the thing is the PC Engine does not naturally output RGB and it needs an amp inside the console to get a good picture. As long as I have this amp looking good on a plasma and a CRT in my house I am happy with sending them out, I never saw what you describe."
I have now tested on a THIRD TV set, a Sony Trinitron CRT, and YES, the problem is still there. I have no idea what to do anymore with this.
Maybe someone else can help?
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I was thinking about getting an RGB or component mod for my duo at some point down the line, but maybe just getting a decent CRT is the best route for now. I'd also be curious to know if there is a fix for this issue as it would make getting an RGB mod much more enticing. :mrgreen:
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Well to be honest, you wont see the white banding unless there is a big solid colour, and even then, only anally retentive people like myself are able to see it [-(
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Well to be honest, you wont see the white banding unless there is a big solid colour, and even then, only anally retentive people like myself are able to see it [-(
I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness. :wink:
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I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness. :wink:
That along with you being Canadian. :P Pbbbbt!
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I think the fact that I want to get the RGB mod in the first place illustrates my anal retentiveness. :wink:
That along with you being Canadian. :P Pbbbbt!
haha. It always comes back to the Canuck. :P
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Small update. I have checked my RGB Modded PCE in composite mode, and there is no banding of any sort. Obviously, the colours and image quality degrade a lot when compared to RGB.
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I know this exact problem you describe, and I am almost 100% positive it is not the fault of a mod. This is because my duo, using standard official composite cables, exhibits the exact same problem. The reason I never noticed before is because I never played my duo on anything but a crt until last year. Not only the duo, but snes, genesis, sega master, they ALL do it to some degree, some more noticeable than others. The reason we never noticed it via composite in years past, is because we were all playing on crt's(or up to some point were).
It varies from crt to crt even, with my rgb modded tg-16 on a small crt completely unnoticeable, on a large crt, just barely noticeable, on a large lcd, more noticeable, lcd via composite noticeable, lcd stretched via composite, very noticeable. lcd stretched via component, well you get the idea...
I think it is a flaw of the design in these old systems that was overlooked, as you would probably never notice it on composite, or even s-video, or component on a 27" or less crt tv.
There is another very similiar problem atari 7800's exhibit when s-video modded due to the two separate luma(or chroma lines i can't remember) signals conflicting. Keep in mind crt's have a tendency to smear or blur edges and such faint lines would be completely unnoticeable on most crts via composite or even rgb. Also many people doing rgb mods on the old systems have reported the faint vertical lines. I think the reason some people notice it over others, is that usually no two people that have an rgb or component modded system have the exact same display setup, also differing degree's of vision, and peoples ability to distinguish fine details (on my rgb mod, my friend didn't even notice the vertical lines, until i pointed them out.) I believe there are things you could do to lessen the problem, but the fact is that the lines are a result of the systems design, not the parts used for the mod.
If only I had a dime for every person with a rgb modded system who has the lines...
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Well, on the same TV, I tried other systems, an Amiga and an arcade super gun, both in RGB mode, and neither have any of the said banding. Remember I tried this on 3 TVs, and I got the same problem on ALL of them, and all of them are CRT. The seller has walked away on this problem, saying that on his CRT TV its fine.
On the other hand, displaying the console in composite, all these vertical lines are gone....
I really dont know what to think!
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ok has anyone tried using 220uf capacitors in the RGB lines (and maybe the sync line)? The + leg would go to the line coming in from the HU6260, and the - would go to the RGB Line Out to the TV. I have noticed the bands, and I think this might help. Maybe since the signal doesn't have caps or is amped I am noticing the lines. I am going to build a circuit to test this theory, and also put a fuse on the 5+ line (for safety) because I am using that for "other stuff."
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Well, on the same TV, I tried other systems, an Amiga and an arcade super gun, both in RGB mode, and neither have any of the said banding. Remember I tried this on 3 TVs, and I got the same problem on ALL of them, and all of them are CRT. The seller has walked away on this problem, saying that on his CRT TV its fine.
On the other hand, displaying the console in composite, all these vertical lines are gone....
I really dont know what to think!
Hmm what size, model #, and brand are the 3 different tvs? You said rgb mode, so I am assuming they all support rgb natively. I know if the signal is pure rgb, the bands can sometimes be just barely noticeable on a crt especially large ones.
The composite thing makes sense as composite has all the video color signals and sync on one wire and then interpreted and separated when they reach the tv, therefore you lose a lot of video quality and fidelity. The subtle bands are lost because of this. It may be the case that the seller does not notice these bands on his display. Like I said there are probably ways to lessen these bands by filtering the lines, (don't know if the cap thing would work, likely you would get duller darker colors overall by doing that), I just don't know how to reliably do so, nor do I think many others know how either.
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This is a common "issue" with the PC Engine or even the TurboGrafx. Vertical stripes (though faint). There are certain mods out there which use chips which do not have this problem, but as of now such a mod is pretty rare. Basically the fact is this: If you have a PC Engine-equivalent modded for RGB you're going to have vertical stripes. Welcome to the club! :)
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ok has anyone tried using 220uf capacitors in the RGB lines (and maybe the sync line)? The + leg would go to the line coming in from the HU6260, and the - would go to the RGB Line Out to the TV. I have noticed the bands, and I think this might help. Maybe since the signal doesn't have caps or is amped I am noticing the lines. I am going to build a circuit to test this theory, and also put a fuse on the 5+ line (for safety) because I am using that for "other stuff."
This is just my guess, but it will just serve to blur the image horizontally, in theory "eliminating" the lines but just because they're getting smeared more. Lines on a display usually mean poor decoupling on video chips. Decoupling means the small ceramic capacitors that go between the +5v and GND pins of computer chips. Now how to fix that, again, I don't really know.
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it is supposed to make the image brighter which maybe will prevent you from seeing the lines. On my PS1 RGB setup I have to turn the brightness all the way up to get a good looking image, but then I can seen the lines. This is the theory, which I will test.
Also there are amps you can build that also do a nice job or removing the lines.
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I don't know if this helps, but on my Duo I have none of these banding problems. TV is a 27" Samsung CRT. However, my image is very, very bright, like the RGB amp is sending too strong of a signal. Perhaps that's why I don't see it?
I think I know exactly what you are talking about though, I have several models of the Genesis, and many of them do the banding to a certain degree.
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I usually have to back off the color/saturation/chroma level (depends on the TV what it is called) a bit to get it to look normal, but not too much. I usually don't have to mess with the brightness or contrast/picture.
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Well, on the same TV, I tried other systems, an Amiga and an arcade super gun, both in RGB mode, and neither have any of the said banding. Remember I tried this on 3 TVs, and I got the same problem on ALL of them, and all of them are CRT. The seller has walked away on this problem, saying that on his CRT TV its fine.
On the other hand, displaying the console in composite, all these vertical lines are gone....
I really dont know what to think!
Hmm what size, model #, and brand are the 3 different tvs? You said rgb mode, so I am assuming they all support rgb natively. I know if the signal is pure rgb, the bands can sometimes be just barely noticeable on a crt especially large ones.
The composite thing makes sense as composite has all the video color signals and sync on one wire and then interpreted and separated when they reach the tv, therefore you lose a lot of video quality and fidelity. The subtle bands are lost because of this. It may be the case that the seller does not notice these bands on his display. Like I said there are probably ways to lessen these bands by filtering the lines, (don't know if the cap thing would work, likely you would get duller darker colors overall by doing that), I just don't know how to reliably do so, nor do I think many others know how either.
Two TVs I tried on are 'Grundig', one size 15" and the other 21". I also tried on a thrid TV, a Sony 32" trinitron. All of these are CRT.
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This is a common "issue" with the PC Engine or even the TurboGrafx. Vertical stripes (though faint). There are certain mods out there which use chips which do not have this problem, but as of now such a mod is pretty rare. Basically the fact is this: If you have a PC Engine-equivalent modded for RGB you're going to have vertical stripes. Welcome to the club! :)
Ah ok then, I will have to get used to it.
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I was also going to try higher quality wiring, and maybe shield it, but maybe i will have to go the amp route....
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Meanwhile I have talked to NFG from gamesx.com, and he confirms that the 'jailbars' are normal and there is absolutely nothing I can do about them.
One other thing I have noticed (alright call me picky :) ) are like very, very slightly visible 'lines' (noise?)at 45 degree angles on dark blue areas. Maybe someone else can check it - I can see it in the game "barunba" on one of the levels. It is also visible, but much, much fainter on large gray areas.
Any ideas?
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That's the same thing, basically. It is kind of an illusion of moving chroma noise or something similar. If you eliminate one, you'll eliminate the other. Again, we all have it. All 20 of us who have this system in RGB, that is.
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Ah ok. Then I'll shut up right now, and be happy with it :dance:
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Wow I guess I am also not the only one with this problem! If you don't see the bars try a different game as they are not prominent in every game. One game in particular that you can see the bars in is Shinobi,Splatterhouse, or any game with a light solid colored backround. I have tried many methods and different mods but nothing fixes it. I guess this is like a NES with rgb in that it will never be %100 correct.
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Yeah light solid background gives it away.
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I think I know what lines you guys are talking about. It happens when I play MAME on my PC. Some games are much more noticeable than others, i.e. Donkey Kong and Ghosts 'n Goblins - which, btw, I'm coming close to beating...at least the first complete run. Still have to beat the boss though. ](*,)
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Huh? I think you are off track here mate. We are talking about 15khz RGB signal on PAL60 TVs.
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Or RGB converted to component on NTSC TVs (though component really isn't NTSC aside from the resolution).
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Huh? I think you are off track here mate. We are talking about 15khz RGB signal on PAL60 TVs.
Ah, yes. I'm thinking of something else. 8-[ heh
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Okay, I hate all of you now.
Since I got my RGB modded system, I have been playing all CD games and everything looked fine. Last night I popped in some hucards, with the simpler background graphics, and started noticing the issue that was described. Shinobi in particular did it a lot with solid black background.
Damn you all! :lol: Shinobi still looked awesome in component, it reminded me of playing it in the arcade, except my TV is better than local arcade monitors.
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I have had the same 'vertical line' problem as well on my Duo-R. They usually appear on solid blue and purple screens, but are pretty minimal in my opinion. In my opinion, these 'jail bars' do not detract from the quality of the image since they can barely be seen. I believe it is inherent to the RGB mob, because I never saw those lines while playing in composite(my RGB-modded N64 also has this problem). S-Video modded units also have the same problem(even moreso), so don't go there if you expect to rid yourself of the vertical line problem. Also, an RGB-YUV transcoder will not get rid of this problem -there is no such thing as magic! Even with some of the problems we must face with RGB-modded systems, it still looks far better than composite video will ever look even on its best day! I hope this is consolation for anyone that may be seeing an image that is not completely perfect...
Erik
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I have had the same 'vertical line' problem as well on my Duo-R. They usually appear on solid blue and purple screens, but are pretty minimal in my opinion. In my opinion, these 'jail bars' do not detract from the quality of the image since they can barely be seen. I believe it is inherent to the RGB mob, because I never saw those lines while playing in composite(my RGB-modded N64 also has this problem). S-Video modded units also have the same problem(even moreso), so don't go there if you expect to rid yourself of the vertical line problem. Also, an RGB-YUV transcoder will not get rid of this problem -there is no such thing as magic! Even with some of the problems we must face with RGB-modded systems, it still looks far better than composite video will ever look even on its best day! I hope this is consolation for anyone that may be seeing an image that is not completely perfect...
Erik
Really? The SVideo has the jail bar problem as well? I haven't noticed this at all, on any games. :-k
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I have heard that putting a good amp for your RGB lines will make it unnoticeable. I want to build an RGB amp using the CXA1645, but I need someone to donate a broken PS1 since I haven't had success at the local garage sells yet (I just missed a $5 ps1 system from a sale yesterday). Amp then to RGB Jrok converter, I should be set. If it works well I will post up a tutorial on my webpage.
I have had the same 'vertical line' problem as well on my Duo-R. They usually appear on solid blue and purple screens, but are pretty minimal in my opinion. In my opinion, these 'jail bars' do not detract from the quality of the image since they can barely be seen. I believe it is inherent to the RGB mob, because I never saw those lines while playing in composite(my RGB-modded N64 also has this problem). S-Video modded units also have the same problem(even moreso), so don't go there if you expect to rid yourself of the vertical line problem. Also, an RGB-YUV transcoder will not get rid of this problem -there is no such thing as magic! Even with some of the problems we must face with RGB-modded systems, it still looks far better than composite video will ever look even on its best day! I hope this is consolation for anyone that may be seeing an image that is not completely perfect...
Erik
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heads up - good RGB amp almost completely eliminates the lines. My amp was built by the ebay seller Doujindance and using the Atlona boards.
On another topic, has anyone used the Atlona / CYM board with a Genesis or Genesis 2? I am getting some sync interference on occasion with the Genesis 2.
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I wish I could buy JUST the amp... if it reduced all of the lines. Installing it myself is no problem. Right now all I have is a transistor on each line and it works fine. No caps, no resistors.
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so the transistors don't very well I take it for the lines? Odd I thought it would look good. I hear ya on buying that amp, I would do the same (instead of taking the time to build it).
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I wish I could buy JUST the amp... if it reduced all of the lines. Installing it myself is no problem. Right now all I have is a transistor on each line and it works fine. No caps, no resistors.
I've seen some UK sites sell a "color booster" cable that appears to be an external amp for RGB'd PCE's, but at 20 pounds plus shipping to the US I don't think it would be worth it.