PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: bacteria on April 11, 2009, 11:16:56 AM
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Hi guys; my first post in this forum.
I am very active on the BenHeck forum; I not only play retro systems but have a love of making them portable. My current project is making a TurboGrafx (PAL) unit with relocated cart slot, US/Jap converter and making the board about 60% of its original size to fit into my project case. All this I have done so far. Into case preparation at moment.
I found out about this forum during my research for the system - I am building up a good catalogue of games for this system and rate the TG-16 and PC-Engine as a very good system indeed, probably better than the SNES; or certainly on par with it.
So, as well as this forum, which others are big on this wonderful system?
When my portables get made they tend to generate a fair bit of interest on the net - I want to try and publicize the greatness of the console, hopefully to get more people lovin' it.
So, which other forums, as well as this one, are good TurboGrafx and PC-Engine sites (in English)? I want to try and see if I can get more people to visit such sites, on the back of my portable system - I think the console deserves more notoriety than it gets!
To prove i'm not a noobie, below are pics of my hacked console (lots of soldering to chip pins) and the case backing so far:
(http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/7c9b857dfdf68e0d3c6372083810fc67.jpg) (http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/7c9b857dfdf68e0d3c6372083810fc67.jpg)
(http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/8af3f034e4dc3abc547c3b5a8c73b7c2.jpg) (http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/8af3f034e4dc3abc547c3b5a8c73b7c2.jpg)
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I guess that it's too late to warn you that the PAL TurboGrafx plays games at different speeds than NTSC hardware. Although I understand that part of the fun of portablizing a console is the challenge, a white PCE or CoreGrafx would already be smaller than your current project. Still looks cool though, good luck. :clap:
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I really like that you retained the slot-look for the hucard slot. Very classy.
(marurun @ Racketboy, FYI)
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Glad you finally made it over here Bac!
Although I understand that part of the fun of portablizing a console is the challenge, a white PCE or CoreGrafx would already be smaller than your current project. Still looks cool though, good luck. :clap:
I already pitched it to him and he doesn't wanna hear it, LOL.
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Just to explain, the hardware to play HUcards and CD's (if you want CD's) has many options; other systems, eg NES has one unit only, (NOAC don't count), SNES is one unit (although you can get RetroDuo, and US market have a smaller one), N64 is one unit, etc - the HUcard consoles have a variety of choices strangely. When I did my research, I read on sites that Japanese consoles didn't play US games, but US consoles could play Japanese ones; so the Coregrafx etc were out - I then realised that that was entirely wrong and in fact with a very simple extra mod, any system can play US and Jap games fine; however, at that time, I had already obtained a TurboGrafx from a UK supplier, as that cost about £45 inc postage, which was about two thirds to half the price of alternatives - after all, consoles for HUcards are not cheap! I then discovered that my TurboGrafx was happy to play US games via my PAL screen, which was strange, further research showed that I had a UK PAL system which has a chip to convert RGB into composite PAL; which was interesting.
So, yes, had I known then what I know now, I would have got a CoreGrafx or similar, as the board is smaller and would have saved me hours of painstaking rewiring and trimming of the board, however the result is still that in either scenario, I wanted the board to fit into my case. The difference however is that my PAL system plays at a slower speed than the NTSC ones, however, not really sure if that means any games will suffer slowdowns?
Can someone clarify if in fact any of my games will run with any noticable difference in speed (ie slowdowns) - I have the following so far: Alien Crush, Blazing Lasers, Break-in (jap), Bomberman (jap), Bomberman '93 (jap), Bomberman '94 (jap), Cratermaze, Dead Moon, Final Lap Twin (jap), Galaga '90, Gradius (jap), Military Madness, Power Golf, R-Type 1 (jap), Side Arms (jap), Space Invaders (jap), Salamander (jap), Vigilante. If there is no slowdown, etc, it wouldn't matter if the system runs faster or slower after all. I think, as I recall, the difference in processor power is 17Mhz vs 21Mhz; the 50mHz va 60Mhz will be the video output (also, perhaps any difference in the processor speed is offset by the reduced video output?).
Thanks spenoza, I thought I would use the original slot as it looks nice and does the job. I have enough space to put my disassembled Li-ions alongside, to balance also the weight.
Black Tiger - which other forum(s) are you in?
On another question, is this forum fairly active? How does it compare to other ones for the TG-16/PCE? Is there a good fan base?
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welcome aboard and a cool project you do here. but why don't you take a JPN PC Engine? since the board is already much smaller by nature and will also play all the JPN games which are also much more fun ( :P ).
btw. there already exist a Portable PCE/TG16 done by its original maker. but i guess you're already aware of that :wink:
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HEy! That's a pal TG16 in the pics!? The board layout is totally different than the US PCB. Can you list off all the chips on the PCB? There's definitely some additional chips in that PCM pic you posted.
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Thanks for the welcome Tatsunjin. Mentioned in previous post why used the TurboGrafx board. My board runs both US and Japanese games, I made my own eight pole double throw switch.
I am actually going to make the system detachable. Those of you "in the know" know I made a multi-platform system a year or so ago (as per my website); I am going to make the TurboGrafx the first system in my major version 2 of the multi-platform system; with a far smaller case than before, vacuum formed, curved etc. It will be a major upgrade over my previous system - this one will be awesome! :wink:
Tom - the PAL unit has an extra chip - it takes RGB (presumably NTSC) and spits out composite in PAL.
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As others have said the PAL Turbografx is the largest and least compatible of all the dozen or so different versions of the PC Engine. A standard PCE is already less than %60 of the size of a TG without any modifications. Also, NEC already made two portable systems.
That being said...I still think this is a good idea since the screens on those old systems, although bleeding edge at the time, are pretty miserable by today's standards. Small, blurry, and power hogging. You are the only one that has to deal with the extra work needed to use a TG instead of a Coregrafx or something small so why do we care? :)
Something like this with at least a 5" screen and a six button pad build in would be very cool.
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Bacteria,
welcome to the boards! Do you have a link to your work on Benheck? I have seen almost no information or interest in portabilizing a PC Engine / turbografx. I think this stems from already having the Turbo Express and the PC Engine (small) systems. However i think it is cool what you are doing. Please don't leave it that brown color though otherwise it might be called the PooGrafx.
Also - you should post your work on the "Modification" section of the forums.
Again good luck on your work!
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Bacteria, Tom, others in the know...
Is the RGB output of the PAL TG-16 50 hz or 60 hz? If it's 60 hz and the PAL converter samples it to 50 hz you could just wire the RGB directly to the screen and maybe suffer no slowdown at all.
Or maybe I'm speculating out of my ass on this.
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very high probably they changed the crystal to obtain the 50Hz. so the whole board will be affected from that. without changing back the crystal, there will be no other way to bring back the original speed onto the screen.
at least, that is the thing what all the early importers did, when they modded JPN PC Engines (or Mega Drives as well) to PAL for the european market.
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Ccovell theorized that the PAL consoles (the modded ones for import) ran on a slower clock crystal - hence the faster speed in that finland release of 5-in-1 NES cart for PCE (and color/palette choices too).
Anyway, that PAL unit has a totally different PCB than the US model. So it's more than just a re-used/modified version that NEC used from back/old stock of US consoles.
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...Please don't leave it that brown color though otherwise it might be called the PooGrafx...
Looks very crimson RED to me on my monitor.
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SignOfZeta - My system will have a 5.4" PSone screen, which is a very good screen. Yes, there was a portable system made years ago, they are rare and only one I found was going for over £1100. My system will cost me 10% of that, and with good batteries, screen, etc. The handheld system only had a 2.5" screen and was power hungry. My system will be easy to hold, good battery life, quality screen, plays US and Jap games; so your point??
Duo_R - Thanks, appreciate the welcome and interest. Will post my final work in the Modifications section then.
The system is glossy medium red; if you see brown it must be your monitor!
No-one has done anything on BenHeck on the TurboGrafx / PC-Engine. There isn't even a relevant section for me to post this project there onto. You can see my work on my site (and its evolution) - www.modded-by-bacteria.com (http://www.modded-by-bacteria.com/) and obviously, you can search for me on the BenHeck site - I am "Bacteria" there too of course!
I am going to make this TurboGrafx system the first of my version 2 major upgrade to my concept for a multi-platform system. One screen, one set of controls; pluggable console systems into the backing.
spenoza - Good point well made. I suspect, but might be wrong, that the RGB is 60Mhz as it takes NTSC games and when converted by the extra chip, you get 50Mhz composite on PAL - which explains why NTSC games play fine on a PAL system.
I have tapped off the RGB, just need to amplify the signals for my screen (I have the components). This probably therefore means I have a full-speed system (and great image quality).
What I do know is that the games I have tested don't slow down, so don't think there is a speed issue anyway?
Tom - Have you pics of the US system for comparision?
TheMilford - Indeed!
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Welcome aboard and good luck with this project.
SignOfZeta - My system will have a 5.4" PSone screen, which is a very good screen. Yes, there was a portable system made years ago, they are rare and only one I found was going for over £1100. My system will cost me 10% of that, and with good batteries, screen, etc. The handheld system only had a 2.5" screen and was power hungry. My system will be easy to hold, good battery life, quality screen, plays US and Jap games; so your point??
Don't be so defensive - that was his point. To paraphrase: this beast has the potential to better the LT and GT in all ways, and while you could have started with a more compact PCB and saved yourself some trouble, that is your concern, not ours.
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Apologies, mis-read the post a bit!
I must admit though, if I had known now what I didn't when I started this project I would still have got the system I did (TurboGrafx PAL) - the CoreGrafx systems on e-bay are about £100; I paid £45 for my system - I wouldn't have fancied spending £100 on a board for a project, it's a lot of money when there is a chance when opening up a system to hack or mod it that the system will die, and £100 is a lot of money to risk.
Anyone know the size of the motherboard for the CoreGrafx system?
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my first turbo grafx i got from my aunt was painted that color by a friend and I thought it was limited edition the whole time.
and then I got the internet.
:)
what made you pick the splattery looking blob case?
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Welcome bacteria.
First, let me apologize for the poor reading comprehension skills and abrasive conversational tone of my fellow forum members. You'd think they were raised by feral dogs.
I posted a message yesterday, but apparently I forgot to hit "submit". I find myself struggling with basic tasks these days, so don't be alarmed.
Anyway, (1) yes, this is one of the more active TG-16 forums... magicengine.com used to be active, but it is probably dormant now. Other general video game forums have a smattering of TG-16 fans, but it usually isn't a stable, consistent topic of conversation.
(2) Good luck with your project.
(3) I, for one, like the candy-red color and shape you chose for IntoGrafx.
Now, to turn the tables:
(a) Any info on the PAL TG-16 would be great: what documentation came with it?, are distributors mentioned?, any pack-in games?, any upcoming titles mentioned?, etc. etc.
(b) Does the box/packaging mention anything interesting? (i.e. pack-in game?)
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Thanks esteban - I presume you refer to posts like from Arkhan's last post, for example? He obviously doesn't realise that this is a vacuum formed case which I designed and made. Red makes it look nice - Nintendo released the N64 in various colours after all - enough said!
Documentation that came with system - booklet plus some leads - interestingly, the power supply was two pin not three, so designed for European plugs. As to distributers - don't know, will look in booklet to see if any are mentioned (can't at the moment). Seller is selling one on e-bay at the moment in UK again; seem to have a few - think they were the distributer if I recall. No included games.
Good, pleased I found the main forum site for this system then.
Tell me; is anyone interested in me posting a WIP guide here for this work I am doing - are people here interested in modding worklogs? There is no-where relevant on the BenHeck site for this system; so I put it on my website at the moment. If there was a lot of interest from members here for me to do a worklog, I will. If there isn't much interest, no point. Up to you guys.
Work I have to do on my TurboGrafx remaining - batteries (Li-ions), fix into case (and switch already built); RGB mod (amplify signals); make into separate system to integrate into removable system; build front of case, mount everything. Lots of work remaining.
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Tell me; is anyone interested in me posting a WIP guide here for this work I am doing - are people here interested in modding worklogs?
Heck yeah! Anything too technical will be over my head, but that won't stop me from reading any updates and drooling over the pretty pictures. 8)
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Great, that's one vote, thanks - other views/comments?
I don't get technical in my worklogs. My electronics knowledge is pretty low on the scale, however I am good at research; good at fine soldering work and innovative techniques. I work on the basis of not "how clever I am, look at me" as many were on BenHeck before I came on the scene; rather prefer the basis of "follow my work, replicate it and make your own - here's how...".
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I'd love to see an "artist rendition", or even pics of different designs you tried/various versions.
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spenoza - Good point well made. I suspect, but might be wrong, that the RGB is 60Mhz as it takes NTSC games and when converted by the extra chip, you get 50Mhz composite on PAL - which explains why NTSC games play fine on a PAL system.
I have tapped off the RGB, just need to amplify the signals for my screen (I have the components). This probably therefore means I have a full-speed system (and great image quality).
as i said before, you will have the 17% speed down with a very high probability:
very high probably they changed the crystal to obtain the 50Hz. so the whole board will be affected from that. without changing back the crystal, there will be no other way to bring back the original speed onto the screen.
at least, that is the thing what all the early importers did, when they modded JPN PC Engines (or Mega Drives as well) to PAL for the european market.
can you let us know the MHz on the crystal?
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Thanks esteban - I presume you refer to posts like from Arkhan's last post, for example? He obviously doesn't realise that this is a vacuum formed case which I designed and made. Red makes it look nice - Nintendo released the N64 in various colours after all - enough said!
Yes I do realize what it is. Again, I am asking why you chose that design. It's curiosity. Calm down. Singling one forum members post out by name (me) is a surefire way to piss someone off.
I'm not sure if you picked up on the nostalgic tone of the mention of my first red Turbo Grafx. I guess not. I like the color red. For 3-4 years I thought that I had a special rare red one. Then it turns out it was spray paint.
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(a) Any info on the PAL TG-16 would be great: what documentation came with it?, are distributors mentioned?, any pack-in games?, any upcoming titles mentioned?, etc. etc.
(b) Does the box/packaging mention anything interesting? (i.e. pack-in game?)
Mine came with a poorer quality version of the North American system manual. The pack-in game was Alien Crush, which came loose in a sleeve with a photocopied manual, underneath everything else in the console box. From what I've seen of eBay auctions for the PAL TurboGrafx, it looks like OEM games were provided (sellers have/had tons) and distributors randomly inserted or provided them. The power supply and some accessories came in a separate box. The main box lists the contents, including "a game", but each side is pretty much the same as the reverse as it wasn't fully commercially released. The box was made in Taiwan, but the hardware was made in Japan. The main box has a peel-away serial number on the bottom(?).
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Tatsujin - There is a long white arrow pointing to a metal loop that sticks out from the board; which says 17.73448Mhz; which I presume is the crystal? If it is a crystal, how come it is a small loop?
(http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/c2b469d4ebd12e19c0fef2979b281afb.jpg) (http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/c2b469d4ebd12e19c0fef2979b281afb.jpg)
Arkhan - Ok, :D I chose my case design to be just big enough to take a 4 button pad, d-pad, joysticks, screen and speaker for the controls. I wanted the case curved and interesting, not a box. Here is a pic from my PSone system I made recently - you will see what I mean. I may well re-make it though with PSP joysticks instead and red casing, and a bit slimmer if possible. The underside needed to be flatter on the base to take CD's or carts yet also angular.
(http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/172e169f092ee65cb911cba045009720.jpg) (http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/172e169f092ee65cb911cba045009720.jpg)
Black Tiger - Looked at my manual, it was a basic one, orange fronted. The seller (a shop) I bought it from e-bay put in a game with the system; as you indicated. Got rid of the box a while back, so can't look. The serial number on the back of the console is a sticker - 0911748HA if that means anything. On back of box, says make in Taiwan, so guess the system was make in Taiwan not Japan; also says needs 10.8v at 780mA although it runs fine at 7v (what I use) - guess most of the board runs at 5v anyway as there is a large 7805 present, also says product code is HES-TGX-11 whatever that refers to.
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:) I see.
its pretty interesting.
You could def. put a 6 button duo pad on that red case and it would look pretty sweet.
I take it these things wont exactly be mass produced right?
Seems like a pain in the ass to get it done... :(
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Thanks!
I just make systems for myself, they are very labour intensive to make; I also don't sell them as there is no guarantees with such systems like you get in shops, so always an issue if things go wrong anytime. I can make repairs quite easily, but that is because I know how everything works and fits together, others won't. In saying that, I do make case kits for people if they want to have my cases and make their own systems.
A couple of people have commented about 6 buttons for the system - on my controller, and others I have seen, there is a "I" and "II" buttons, select and run and two switches to select between single and auto fire options; as well as a D-pad. Have I missed something?
I am looking at making this system into a multi-platform system (a vastly improved version of the one I made a year ago), where the top of the case covers main controls for systems, then extras like shoulder buttons and the N64 "Z" and four "C" buttons can be on the back of the case where your fingers rest whilst holding the case. Power and control actions will be communicated via magnets - trust me, it will work! :D
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(a) Any info on the PAL TG-16 would be great: what documentation came with it?, are distributors mentioned?, any pack-in games?, any upcoming titles mentioned?, etc. etc.
(b) Does the box/packaging mention anything interesting? (i.e. pack-in game?)
Mine came with a poorer quality version of the North American system manual. The pack-in game was Alien Crush, which came loose in a sleeve with a photocopied manual, underneath everything else in the console box. From what I've seen of eBay auctions for the PAL TurboGrafx, it looks like OEM games were provided (sellers have/had tons) and distributors randomly inserted or provided them. The power supply and some accessories came in a separate box. The main box lists the contents, including "a game", but each side is pretty much the same as the reverse as it wasn't fully commercially released. The box was made in Taiwan, but the hardware was made in Japan. The main box has a peel-away serial number on the bottom(?).
Awesome, thanks. You know what you can add to that long list of "to do's" (or the longer list of "gotta finish one of these days")? A few pics/scans of the TG-PAL box and documentation. :)
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Documentation that came with system - booklet plus some leads - interestingly, the power supply was two pin not three, so designed for European plugs. As to distributers - don't know, will look in booklet to see if any are mentioned (can't at the moment). Seller is selling one on e-bay at the moment in UK again; seem to have a few - think they were the distributer if I recall. No included games.
Thank you.
As for sharing your WIP status with us, I know that there are several folks here who would like to follow along. You should do it.
Suggestion: I think it would be great if you removed the HuCard slot from your design and simply made your portable a dedicated China Warrior unit. China Warrior would be the heart and soul of IntoGrafx.
Note: J/K about the last bit.
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(a) Any info on the PAL TG-16 would be great: what documentation came with it?, are distributors mentioned?, any pack-in games?, any upcoming titles mentioned?, etc. etc.
(b) Does the box/packaging mention anything interesting? (i.e. pack-in game?)
Mine came with a poorer quality version of the North American system manual. The pack-in game was Alien Crush, which came loose in a sleeve with a photocopied manual, underneath everything else in the console box. From what I've seen of eBay auctions for the PAL TurboGrafx, it looks like OEM games were provided (sellers have/had tons) and distributors randomly inserted or provided them. The power supply and some accessories came in a separate box. The main box lists the contents, including "a game", but each side is pretty much the same as the reverse as it wasn't fully commercially released. The box was made in Taiwan, but the hardware was made in Japan. The main box has a peel-away serial number on the bottom(?).
Awesome, thanks. You know what you can add to that long list of "to do's" (or the longer list of "gotta finish one of these days")? A few pics/scans of the TG-PAL box and documentation. :)
It's already another unfinished project. :P I've posted some pics in one or two threads before. I took a bunch of photos of both the PAL and North American TG-16 to compare. Now that finally have a video camera, I plan on recording some comparison footage of the different speeds various games run at, as well as video the box being unpacked.
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Black Tiger - great link, I will look at the thread tonight when I get a chance.
esteban - Ok, I will put my WIP on this site (in the modding section) in the interim; with just a couple/few pics to date from the existing log. Today, i got the decals printed onto clear waterslide paper and gave them three coats of spray paint varnish, in preparation. Will start my worklog on this site by end of week - too much on at the moment. Lots of work to do on this project remaining.
I anticipate finishing this project (the TurboGrafx section anyway) in the next month or two, so not long to wait! :D
My plan is not to update my website much now, I am going for a brand new design and format, which I will release when I put this project console publicised on the web. My previous projects seem to generate 30k-50k hits or thereabouts, and intend to link interested people to this site (from my site) as the forum and my site for a downloadable guide and details on my other systems. I asked the BenHeck forum administrators to make a new "other retro systems" forum to cover systems like the TG-16, nothing has happened, so using this site instead!! :wink:
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A couple of people have commented about 6 buttons for the system - on my controller, and others I have seen, there is a "I" and "II" buttons, select and run and two switches to select between single and auto fire options; as well as a D-pad. Have I missed something?
Later in the life of the console a 6-button controller was introduced, initially for Street Fighter II. It was also used for several other fighting games. The later Duo models shipped with a 6-button pad included. AFAIK only two HuCards use the 6-button controller, so you're not burning any major bridges by going with just 2 buttons and the turbo switches.
Are you going to leave the expansion port attached so you can develop a portable CD-ROM unit later? ; )
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A couple of people have commented about 6 buttons for the system - on my controller, and others I have seen, there is a "I" and "II" buttons, select and run and two switches to select between single and auto fire options; as well as a D-pad. Have I missed something?
Later in the life of the console a 6-button controller was introduced, initially for Street Fighter II. It was also used for several other fighting games. The later Duo models shipped with a 6-button pad included. AFAIK only two HuCards use the 6-button controller, so you're not burning any major bridges by going with just 2 buttons and the turbo switches.
Are you going to leave the expansion port attached so you can develop a portable CD-ROM unit later? ; )
lol portable CD ROM.
yea the Duo rx came w/6 button controller. I guess its not such a big deal if there isnt CD support... you miss out on like SF2
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I would most definitely be interested in your work logs. I dig this kind of stuff, and I'm always coming up with crazy design ideas/mods and attempting to make them into reality, sometimes succeeding and other times not.
I love learning new info and techniques from other fellow "modders", "designers", or whatever we choose to call ourselves, and while I have never portabilized a console, I plan on doing it someday.
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Excellent, thanks for the support guys, appreciated. You never know how you get greeted when visiting a new forum (although i'm not a noobie); I must say you guys are friendly, excellent! I will certainly start a new topic here in the next days for my WIP; although I will keep it relevant.
I have no interest in Street Fighter or the other game, so 2 buttons is fine.
The expansion pack was entirely removed in my board removal, so even if I wanted the CD option (which I don't, for various reasons), I can't do it on this system! :wink:
BTW - in the link above, found these interesting and relevant posts:
That extra 50mA may be required for the signal conversion circuitry.
No such thing. The only difference is a crystal on the board which is rated at a different clock speed, so that the video output will be 50Hz instead of 60 (that's all it takes for PAL output - no need for "signal conversion"). In other words, this is the exact same hardware, with the exception of that single crystal.
Also, slowdown is a misleading term when talking about PAL-50 output... Because while games generally run somewhat slower (constantly, not just occasionally, which slowdown means), the frame rates are actually higher. It's a little hard to explain, but think about ACTUAL slowdown in games... like, when a game starts running at maybe 30% speed because there's too much stuff going on at the screen... well, in PAL mode, these slowdowns rarely occur.
It's pretty fun to play a game console with a 50/60 Hz switch... whenever there's slowdown in a game, I just flip it to 50Hz and it all runs faster right away.
I don't know what causes it, but I think that Malducci briefly explained this somewhere once.
The only difference is a crystal on the board which is rated at a different clock speed, so that the video output will be 50Hz instead of 60 (that's all it takes for PAL output - no need for "signal conversion").
WRONG! PAL color is completely different than NTSC color. It's not just the speed difference. If you only slowed it down to 50Hz, you'd have NTSC 50 which is not PAL. Just like PAL 60 is not NTSC.
Because while games generally run somewhat slower (constantly, not just occasionally, which slowdown means), the frame rates are actually higher. It's a little hard to explain
I bet it is, especially since games that usually run at 60fps could never be bested in framerate by those that run at 50fps. Perhaps you mean there is less slowdown and when it happens it is less severe as a result. That I will buy.
60Hz is how often the TV updates the frame, 60FPS is how many frames the hardware actually deliver. The TV will always update the frame at 50 or 60 times, depending on the video mode, but the hardware will NEVER deliver a solid 50 or 60 FPS.
Wow. Just wow. Have you never seen a game scroll? Most games scroll at 60fps. That's right, it's in a different position 59.94 times per second (the TV actually runs at 59.94Hz). Some games like Wonderboy 3 on the SMS, scroll at 30fps (rounded up from 29.97). The Turbo/PCE version of the same game scrolls much smoother at 60fps.
Can YOU tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps? Try and see if you can tell me which of these identical clips is a solid 60fps and which is a solid 30fps. It is from Super Monkey Ball which runs at 60fps and never, ever drops a frame
Quicktime format (http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/smbcompare.mov) - 1.86 MB
WMV format (http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/smbcompare.wmv) - 2.16 MB
Note: If your computer is slow/ancient, you may have trouble playing back the file without it stuttering. In this case the results would be inconclusive to you.
PAL systems tend to have more CPU headroom and therefore usually see less slowdown.
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you have a vacuum forming machine I take? I would love some kits like the one for the PS1, or maybe the IntoGrafphx. And could you also make me some Storm Trooper Armor???
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Yes, I made my own vacuum forming table, cheaply (see my site).
I am selling case kits (again, see my site)! (see sig). Case is the same for the TurboGrafx project, and the PSone project, and other forthcoming consoles... If the console board can fit, or be made to fit, and same with screen (PSone screens best) you are fine! :wink:
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Tatsujin - There is a long white arrow pointing to a metal loop that sticks out from the board; which says 17.73448Mhz; which I presume is the crystal? If it is a crystal, how come it is a small loop?
(http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/c2b469d4ebd12e19c0fef2979b281afb.jpg) (http://imagehost.rabidusmaximus.com/uploads/c2b469d4ebd12e19c0fef2979b281afb.jpg)
the crystals are those two metal parts labeled with X201 & X202 (the small loop is only a test point to be able to measure the frequency with an oscilloscope). i believe to be able to reading the MHz for the X202 is about 17.73 (as also pointed with the arrow) and for the X201 something around 20MHz +alpha.
anyway, i believe the crystal used for the cpu clock is the x202 with 17.73MHz, the one for the PC Engine is 21.43MHz (probably devided by 3 to obtain the 7,16MHz CPU clock speed). if the PAL uses that 17.73MHz crystal it would be about 17% slower than the JPN/US counterpart, which also would fit with the usual speed brake for unoptimized PAL games.
so as said before, to obtain the original speed back, there is no other option left than replacing the X202 crystal with a 21.43MHz.
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the Intographx is very interesting, and so is the PS1 and Gameboy Advance systems. I am confused on the Gameboy one though, what are the big carts? Are those custom made GBA carts that have flash memory loaded with roms???
Also, do you see PSP and DS Lite systems reducing the need the portabolizing of those systems? And what systems are you selling kits for (just the PS1 version)?
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if the PAL uses that 17.73MHz crystal it would be about 17% slower than the JPN/US counterpart, which also would fit with the usual speed brake for unoptimized PAL games.
It's very doubtful that they would be using that clock (17mhz) for the CPU when the 21.32825mhz crystal gives a CPU clock of 7.10941mhz (which if you look at the Amiga NTSC and PAL CPU speeds, come out the same as on the PCE PAL/NTSC difference). So it's not 17% slower on the CPU, but a little less than 1% slower. The VCE is more than likely being feed that 17.73mhz clock source, since it doesn't divide the 21mhz down for itself (the VCE runs at 21mhz or more precisely a straight clock source, but divides it for the VDC clock source).
The reason why the games would run slower, is that games lock/sync in on the vblank interrupt - which happens 50 times a second for PAL (and 60 for NTSC). If the game uses the frame as a sync for the music, the music will be slower. But if a game uses the TIMER from the CPU - then it will sound the same as on the NTSC system. So an NTSC designed game running on a PAL system will run 16.6% slower, but the CPU is given more time in a single frame and most likely reducing slow down in games that have it.
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Wow, I somehow completely missed this thread. Welcome aboard bacteria and what a cool project! :clap: I can't wait to see the final product.
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Intographx
stop that.
-ph +f
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Shouldn't it be an IntoGrafx-16?
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Shouldn't it be an IntoGrafx-16?
heh. Well, technically it's correct to just call it Turbografx if it's PAL. The PAL Turbografx didn't have the "16" in the name.
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There certainly has been a fair bit of discussion on this thread and others here as to whether the PAL system runs full speed vs the US system or not; some say yes, some say no - however, the bottom line is that the games seem to run full speed, which after all is all that matters...
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Thanks for the welcome, ceti alpha.
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Arkhan - as you say "-ph +f" !
Technically, as you say, ceti alpha, Turbografx is right as a PAL unit; as no "16" in the name, however, when you also play Jap games too, does that become TurboGrafx-PCE ?
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Duo_R - I think you might be referring to the plug'n'play system I made, where I took plug'n'play boards and made them into cartridges, to be read by the main system. The DS has a small screen, squinty; and systems like the PSP need emulators to play other systems; i've yet to see an emulator that plays games exactly as the original would have been represented, without slowdowns, artifacts, framerate skip, choppy video or choppy audio. Granted, there are some very good emulators out there, but there is nothing better than using original hardware.
My case will accomodate a variety of console systems; however the only one I have actually made to date is the PSOne for it, and made a guide and template, so that is what I currently sell it for. After the TurboGrafx, I will do an N64; that will then be three systems for the case kits - more to follow afterwards - plan to reduce the Amstrad GX4000 board after that to fit into my case as the project after that.
If you are into vacuum forming, have a look at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=291
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Oops. I actually meant to say:
Well, technically it's correct to just call it Intografx if it's PAL. The PAL Turbografx didn't have the "16" in the name.
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I tried at least 30 HuCards on a couple PAL compatible TVs and many games run slow. Someone who isn't familiar with the games or even at least the music might not be able to tell the difference, but the bottom line is that the games do not all run at full speed, which is why I tell everyone considering a PAL TG not to buy one for playing games.
Tom's explanation supports the outcome: some games run fine, some run slow.
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yeah, i think know also toms right on that. i had just a very strange happening in the past with a PAL modded JPN Mega Drive once.
i had two same JPN Daimakaimura carts, the one run in normal speed with normal screen size and normal BGM, but the other run 16.6% slower for picture and music and showed the PAL frames.
after taking out that whole PAL modulator mod, all games were runing on normal speed again.
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Slowdown is no fun... especially if you want to hear Super Star Soldier level 3 music at correct power metal speed.
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I haven't tried many of my games for more than a few minutes; I have about 20 HUcards at the moment.
If I want to increase the speed of the system to the same speed as the US model, what do I need to change - the crystals only? - and will that interfere with the CPU and either not make it work, or make everything work too fast, is the rest of the system is expecting the original crystals? If it is just the case of desoldering the existing two crystals (or one), anyone got a link to what I need (ie e-bay ideally)? I don't want to bust my system now! Actually, I will probably test all my games, once the portable is finished, to see if there is any noticeable slowdown. I enjoy games, but my reactions are a bit slower now than a teenager (I will be 43 in a couple of weeks' time), so having a slightly slower system would be good for the shooters (as long, as I say, there are no noticeable slowdowns).
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I haven't tried many of my games for more than a few minutes; I have about 20 HUcards at the moment.
If I want to increase the speed of the system to the same speed as the US model, what do I need to change - the crystals only? - and will that interfere with the CPU and either not make it work, or make everything work too fast, is the rest of the system is expecting the original crystals? If it is just the case of desoldering the existing two crystals (or one), anyone got a link to what I need (ie e-bay ideally)? I don't want to bust my system now! Actually, I will probably test all my games, once the portable is finished, to see if there is any noticeable slowdown. I enjoy games, but my reactions are a bit slower now than a teenager (I will be 43 in a couple of weeks' time), so having a slightly slower system would be good for the shooters (as long, as I say, there are no noticeable slowdowns).
As long as China Warrior plays at full-speed, you're fine.
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I don't like China Warrior, sorry! :-&
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I don't like China Warrior, sorry! :-&
You are in the majority :)
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:P
Printed my decals, put them on my case backing; looks really quite professional. I need to spend today giving it a few coats of Kyrstal Clear Plasti-Kote spray paint to seal it - I used more than half a spray can of red for this case, as it needed this amount to cover the dark grey from the cat slot and the green from the putty. If I don't give it a really good varnish session then the decals will come off and the paint will fingerprint. After all this is done, case needs to be left for at least 24 hours to harden fully - no issue and I can work on this case section on Monday.
Today, I will do the above, the C-Sync amplifier circuit and test it; start on the case front.
I have been sick for the last couple of days, so my work is a bit limited at the moment - should be back to speed on Monday / Tuesday.
I will start my WIP thread on this forum today as promised too (modding section), and give a link to it here.
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I don't like China Warrior, sorry! :-&
You are in the majority :)
Proud to be in the minority.
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I don't like China Warrior, sorry! :-&
You are in the majority :)
Proud to be in the minority.
Same here. We must defend the honor of this unappreciated game. :)
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Ok, started the WIP thread as promised, in the mod forum HERE (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6763.0) Also changing my sig pic for this project, which I post on BenHeck to this site, so some of them will come to this site too...