PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Arkhan on October 29, 2009, 03:50:03 AM
Title: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on October 29, 2009, 03:50:03 AM
I was playing a bunch of games yesterday and couldn't decide if I like the warm chirpy PCE style PSG music in games more, or the synthy FM stuff like you hear in Genesis games.
The games I played were Rtype, Bonk, Final Soldier, and Sinistron on PCE
and
Streets of Rage 2, Aleste for MSX (FM music), and Undeadline (MSX).
I just couldnt decide which sound of music I like better!
Keep in mind by PSG, I specifically mean the PCE or the SCC (konami) chip ones, I don't mean the NES or SMS. Those two PSGs are in a league of their own especially since they're at a slight disadvantage when you compare them to the PCE/SCC PSG. RTYPE FM RTYPE PSG
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 29, 2009, 04:20:50 AM
If you don't mean SMS, why did you post a link to the SMS R-Type FM soundtrack? I think the PCE should be compared to the Genesis, etc instead of the measly SMS whose FM tracks are most often VERY bare-bones and tinny.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on October 29, 2009, 04:29:24 AM
i'm more the fm type. but more some hi-fi arcade than lo-fi console.
what i mean:
:)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Necromancer on October 29, 2009, 04:38:40 AM
In general I prefer PSG over FM, though there's nothing wrong with well done FM. Truth be told, though, I'm a redbook whore and would rather listen to a well done disc.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on October 29, 2009, 05:07:13 AM
FM has this warmness which i miss in PSG.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 29, 2009, 05:25:02 AM
Its tough. The FM stuff has so much more depth to it, but its usually so gritty and grainy and low-fi. The PSG of the PCE is so much cleaner and has such an identity of its own...although it really does just sound like a bunch of beeps and boops most of the time. Sometimes they really nail it though (Super Star Soldier).
My favorite sound chips are the ones in the SFC (Mother 2) and Saturn (Azel). They were also the most powerful sound chips to actually see decent use before eventually CD audio (or compressed recorded audio of some other type) that was recorded with unrelated equipment became the norm.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tom on October 29, 2009, 05:28:45 AM
Yeah, but it can really suffer from the generic "twang"..over usage. Some tunes I prefer in FM, some in PCE PSG. But I know what you mean. I love the love the warm base type sounds from FM. The CD unit should have added a generic FM chip for those low/warm base tones.
When it comes to R-Type, the PCE chiptunes are better than the Arcade FM versions. There's no contest.
And for the record, I think arcade FM is kinda lacking. It's thin and steely. I don't care for it. Especially Capcom's stuff. Arcade FM that's ported to the Genesis, almost always sounds warmer and better. It's just that Genesis FX are almost all FM and I'm not a fan of FM fx.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on October 29, 2009, 05:57:33 AM
true words. but the system 16 FM was right used, nothing to complain about :) for me it's still the definite FM.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on October 29, 2009, 06:04:04 AM
but still nothing can beat the good old SID chip from the c64, when it comes to uniqueness and warmness, even it was very limited in channels etc. :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 29, 2009, 07:02:35 AM
Although it definitely had some good tunes, I am not a fan of the SID, generally speaking. I find it more annoying than anything due to the constant use of arpeggios.
As far as PSG vs FM, hard to say. Both can be used wrongly, but FM done wrong sounds much worse than PSG done wrong. I think it takes more skill and talent to make FM sound right, but since PSG has such a narrow range of sounds, almost anyone can make it sound fine. Pretty much the only thing that differentiates most PSG tracks is the actual composition. When they are both done right, they are both awesome, but I think I prefer FM done right as it has much more bass and seems to have a much broader spectrum of sounds as well as frequency response. However all FM versions of R-Type I have heard simply doesn't even compare to the PCE version!
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on October 29, 2009, 07:45:41 AM
Although it definitely had some good tunes, I am not a fan of the SID, generally speaking. I find it more annoying than anything due to the constant use of arpeggios.
yeah. it really depends of who used it. there are 100'000s of sid out there and just about few hunderds are master pieces. but this is fairly nuff to keep me alive for say the next upcomming 50 years :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: ccovell on October 29, 2009, 11:30:38 AM
FM has the technical edge, for sure, but more classic games on classic systems (NES, PCE, SMS, GB, MSX, C64...) use PSG, so I gotta love 'em!
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: nat on October 29, 2009, 01:56:27 PM
I'll take well-done PSG over FM any day. FM is usually too abrasive (that "twang" Tom referred to) for my ears. That said, I really dig the Sonic the Hedgehog FM soundtracks. But I still think great PSG (Air Zonk, etc) sounds way better.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on October 29, 2009, 03:20:54 PM
I have a hard time with the music in Air Zonk. I think it is mainly because of the ultra-scratchy drums and other scratchy digitized sounds used in the music. The composition of the music itself is good in some stages, but it is no masterpiece.
Jackie Chan's Action Kung-Fu (and boy oh boy is it ever action packed!) has some fantastic PSG.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: nat on October 29, 2009, 06:35:06 PM
I feel Air Zonk's soundtrack is superior to Jackie Chan's, but to each his own. The Gunhed/Soldier games are another example of great PSG.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on October 29, 2009, 07:20:03 PM
If you don't mean SMS, why did you post a link to the SMS R-Type FM soundtrack?
I only did that since I couldn't find a youtube video with home console FM for r-type other than that one. It serves enough of the purpose to compare the two :)
FM has the technical edge, for sure, but more classic games on classic systems (NES, PCE, SMS, GB, MSX, C64...) use PSG, so I gotta love 'em!
The thing about MSX that is so nice is it gets everything. Its got a PSG, AMAZING FM music (MicroCabin games), AND the Konami SCC which is more or less the PCE with a little more oomph. The waveform values are 8bit instead of 5bit. Some stuff utilizes all of it at once. It is pretty much the best thing you could ever hear.
and C64 isn't really a bleepity bloop PSG so much as it is an actual analog synth chip. The thing stands in a league of its own..... I mean its the only sound chip of the 8bit era that sounds just like a Roland synth. Its just a shame it only has one volume register so some games the music is nice, and then you shoot your guns and the sfx for the weaponry overtakes the music and makes a mess.
and as was mentioned, the frigging arps. So much arp abuse. It was nice the first 3 or 4 times I heard an arpy song. After the 9023472034th one, its just a sick joke!
I used SIDs for the CD music for Insanity. :-D Theyre the best thing to come out of the C64
Yeah, but it can really suffer from the generic "twang"..over usage. Some tunes I prefer in FM, some in PCE PSG. But I know what you mean. I love the love the warm base type sounds from FM. The CD unit should have added a generic FM chip for those low/warm base tones.
When it comes to R-Type, the PCE chiptunes are better than the Arcade FM versions. There's no contest.
And for the record, I think arcade FM is kinda lacking. It's thin and steely. I don't care for it. Especially Capcom's stuff. Arcade FM that's ported to the Genesis, almost always sounds warmer and better. It's just that Genesis FX are almost all FM and I'm not a fan of FM fx.
This actually reminds me of the RTYpe for x68000 the FM music sounds like a bunch of cellphones in a soupcan.
I cant decide what I like more. I hear PCE stuff and go WOOO PCE
then I hear:
and go WOOO FM. The Feares town theme is probably my favorite FM tune of all time.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Digi.k on October 30, 2009, 03:25:12 AM
love them both
but stuff like this i really DO Rike!..
populous intro
jackie chan gameplay vid..
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on October 31, 2009, 04:35:19 AM
I like both FM and PSG, however, when it came time to vote, I voted more truthfully: an overwhelming majority of my favorite compositions are PSG.
The Feares town theme is probably my favorite FM tune of all time.
Feares Town is certainly a sweet track. Damn catchy and very yummy.
Preceding Feares is "Hurry Fray (Title)" which has an interesting synth lead (reminiscent of MotoRoader's, surprisingly!) + a disco bassline. There is something about this track I dig: it oscillates between lite bubblegum goof and something slightly more sophisticated.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: ccovell on October 31, 2009, 05:17:46 AM
And surprisingly, the OPL chips in the MSX (and MKIII-FM) are a really inferior form of FM, different from the OPN chips used in the arcades and Genesis.
Micro Cabin got some great sounds out of it in Illusion City as well.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on October 31, 2009, 06:17:20 AM
The Feares town theme is probably my favorite FM tune of all time.
Feares Town is certainly a sweet track. Damn catchy and very yummy.
Preceding Feares is "Hurry Fray (Title)" which has an interesting synth lead (reminiscent of MotoRoader's, surprisingly!) + a disco bassline. There is something about this track I dig: it oscillates between lite bubblegum goof and something slightly more sophisticated.
its very unfortunate that the soundtrack for Fray CD on PCE really isn't as good as the FM stuff from the MSX.
Id rather they just record the FM stuff to redbook and use that lol...
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Zeon on November 01, 2009, 03:27:33 AM
Psg owns FM, period. Fm has some good tunes, but psg has far more good tunes. The best of fm doesn't compare to the very best of psg IMO. Not even close. There is WAY too much fm garbage music out there. For every Streets of Rage there are at least 300 crappy "tinny" and "abrasive" and overall crappy fm tunes. For however much psg owns fm, multiple the amount of ownage by at least 1,000,000,000,000, and precede ownage with words like super, mega, and hyper, and you have an idea how much psg owns redbook, especially early redbook.
Redbook is decent, but the instrumentation is worse, because in 99% of the cases, they have synthy instruments that are trying too hard to sound real, but falling very flat. Mostly sounds like uninspired midis on steroids. Instrumentation aside, lots of redbook is mundane, and bland. You can tell when they got lazy. Kaze no Xanadu may not be my favorite pc engine rpg or game by far, but I have to give them a MEGA thumbs up for making 99% of the game's sound track in psg, and very well done psg at that. The kick ass music was one of the few things that was able to keep me going for 6 hours straight without pulling my hair out trying to figure out what bastard I needed to talk to that I couldn't find, or wasting 10 minutes at a time traveling from one end of an area to another to see if I actually triggered an event.
I wished they still made most games with psg music, I'd probably buy some of the crap they shit out nowadays if they did. I would totally buy rock band or guitar hero, if it was all kick ass psg music.
OBEY PSG
DESTROY REDBOOK :twisted:
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2009, 04:38:43 AM
Im not sure I entirely follow your logic. Guitar Hero isn't synthy computer instrumentation.... its real music lol. I love PSG and all, but Van Halen sounds better when its Van Halen, not PSG Halen.
and out of curiosity what redbook stuff sounds like crappy MIDI to you?
another interesting point is, how many games were released in all for the PCE? Factor in the SMALL library of SCC games from Konami on MSX, and I think you might end up discovering that there are actually more FM games with good music than PSG ones.... :P
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Zeon on November 01, 2009, 05:05:29 AM
I never said guitar hero was synthy, but I can see how you inferred that.
and out of curiosity what redbook stuff sounds like crappy MIDI to you?
Not necessarily crappy, but uninspired and flat, and all of it. People rave about the tg-16 redbook audio for ys 1& II, and ys III, yet I think it is passe, I actually prefer nes versions of the tunes, and am deeply disappointed that they didn't go psg. Even the genesis Ys III pwns tg-cd Ys III's redbook audio.
another interesting point is, how many games were released in all for the PCE? Factor in the SMALL library of SCC games from Konami on MSX, and I think you might end up discovering that there are actually more FM games with good music than PSG ones.... :P
I would also include nes, and gameboy in the ranks of the psg chippy type music. There are quite a bit of good nes and gameboy tunes that don't use any expansion chips. Believe it or not many pce cd games had a good amount of psg music. If you took a good to bad ratio of fm vs psg music of just the genesis and pce alone (Tons of arcade games and others used fm, granted usually superior hardware). There are FAR more good psg tunes. In fact I can think of maybe 3 games on the pce that had awful psg music. Titan and Deep Blue are two of them, and even then none of them have ever been ear grating. There is literally about two handfuls of good fm genny music. I have listened to some msx fm music, and I can say the good stuff, pales in comparison the the good psg tunes.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2009, 06:22:44 AM
well if you are factoring in NES and stuff you must not of read the original post all the way, lol.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Zeon on November 01, 2009, 07:00:19 AM
If you took a good to bad ratio of fm vs psg music of just the genesis and pce alone (Tons of arcade games and others used fm, granted usually superior hardware). There are FAR more good psg tunes. In fact I can think of maybe 3 games on the pce that had awful psg music. Titan and Deep Blue are two of them, and even then none of them have ever been ear grating. There is literally about two handfuls of good fm genny music. I have listened to some msx fm music, and I can say the good stuff, pales in comparison the the good psg tunes.
I read your post 100%, and only mentioned the nes and gameboy (you didn't say anything about that one :P) as a small aside. Actually, another system that was capable of some pretty cool, yet basic music was the intellivision, although very few commercial games took advantage of it due to size limitations and cost.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2009, 07:43:31 AM
As far as PSG I really only do mean the 32 byte ones (PCE and SCC). the other stuff (NES/Gameboy) is at a huge disadvantage from the start so it isn't fair to compare.
You have brought up an interesting thought though, I wonder if there are enough genesis and msx games with good FM music to match up to the amount of PCE PSG stuff that is good. I really like this here song and this and this and this
for starts.
man Arlisia Dragoon is one killer soundtrack.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 01, 2009, 08:07:39 AM
I agree that PSG (or FM) can sound better than bad redbook. In the early days of CD gaming, companies had piss-poor musical abilities. R-Type HuCard sounds a billion times better than R-Type CD.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 01, 2009, 11:32:31 AM
it's more about what you do with the existing technology, than damn it in the first place.
there are thousands upon thousands of good tunes out there, some are made in PSG, some in FM and some on a more sophisticated equipment or even real instruments and then recorded on a CD.
I really do appreciate every of those ways of creating video game musics, and in the end it just depends of who did it and how.
f.E. the c64 may have one of the most oldest and outdated sound chip compared to systems up to the 16bit era, but in my opinion it still sounds superior to many many chip tunes made on later systems, just do to the fact that there were (and still are) so excellent SID composers, which had squeezed really everything out of it.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 01, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
the c64 may have one of the most oldest and outdated sound chip compared to systems up to the 16bit era, but in my opinion it still sounds superior to many many chip tunes made on later systems, just do to the fact that there were (and still are) so excellent SID composers, which had squeezed really everything out of it.
The SID is more powerful than most/all PSG's. Its basically 3 analog monosynths on one board.
Too bad they never came out with a SID-II with more stuff going on for it.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 01, 2009, 12:36:21 PM
by the way, doesn't fall FM also in the category of PSG? the term PSG just stands for Programmable Sound Generator, right? so it doesn't describe of how it must be done to achieve the creation of a certain sound. FM, PCM etc. then are just added subfunctions of a PSG.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Black Tiger on November 01, 2009, 01:24:01 PM
Keep in mind by PSG, I specifically mean the PCE or the SCC (konami) chip ones, I don't mean the NES or SMS. Those two PSGs are in a league of their own especially since they're at a slight disadvantage when you compare them to the PCE/SCC PSG.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWc9DxgbnT4 RTYPE FM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo9PmyYCovo RTYPE PSG
Some NES and SMS games sound as good as or better than 16-bit console games at times.
Emulation isn't very good for comparing PCE PSG sound, especially games like R-Type.
Quote
As far as PSG vs FM, hard to say. Both can be used wrongly, but FM done wrong sounds much worse than PSG done wrong. I think it takes more skill and talent to make FM sound right, but since PSG has such a narrow range of sounds, almost anyone can make it sound fine. Pretty much the only thing that differentiates most PSG tracks is the actual composition. When they are both done right, they are both awesome, but I think I prefer FM done right as it has much more bass and seems to have a much broader spectrum of sounds as well as frequency response. However all FM versions of R-Type I have heard simply doesn't even compare to the PCE version!
There is a good variety of PCE PSG sounds, even if there isn't nearly as much variety of games using different types of sounds. From what I've heard about PCE development, I think that it was a lack of skill and talent (and/or tools) that limited PCE PSG from having more variety more often.
I have a hard time with the music in Air Zonk. I think it is mainly because of the ultra-scratchy drums and other scratchy digitized sounds used in the music. The composition of the music itself is good in some stages, but it is no masterpiece.
Jackie Chan's Action Kung-Fu (and boy oh boy is it ever action packed!) has some fantastic PSG.
Although I love Air Zonk's music, I still cannot get into Jackie Chan's. I'm hoping that once I have the time to play through the game again that it'll sink in, but after trying so many times, I can't listen to the tracks for very long before skipping on to other ones and then to another game altogether. I had the same problem with Legendary Axe II for years, but finally came to appreciate it. Not coincidentally, both are games I only played through as rentals back in the day.
PCE PSG is my favorite of pre-sample based sound. I love all pre-SNES system generated sound and then the SNES/GBA to a lesser extent. I don't really look at it as a matter of which is better, for me it's all just different. I still have preferences with cross-platform games, Ys III probably sounds best on Famicom other than the PCE CD music (at times it even surpasses it). The Fantasy Zone music hidden in Super Fantasy Zone is better than everything including the arcade. Although I've always been disappointed with the plain sounds used in SFII' PCE, the compositions make it my favorite SFII soundtrack and it still sounds good. I prefer good SMS PSG over good NES PSG. Of course I like the SMS overall more as well. :wink:
Genesis FM is awesome when done right, but I find that it's not so often done wrong so much as imperfect. Sometimes the instruments will be unbalanced or effort was only put into the main riff or something. The sound difference in hardware variations only complicates things further (thank god it's been sorted out).
Just as most/many developers didn't push PCE visuals in the same ways as Genesis and SNES games (for reasons discussed many times before) most seemed content to put out great music without trying to go the extra mile creating unique sounds or using the PCE's samples capability well. The general attitude between HuCard and CD projects likely didn't help. Thankfully there's lots of cool unique sounding stuff out there if you play enough games and overall an amazing amount of quality music. SFX seem to have a better variety than music and many PCE PSG sound tests sound the same as a Genesis game sound test.
Some people have been discussing and/or judging the sound types themselves and/or the actual music. The PCE is my favorite for both. As for "redbook" music, not only do I love PCE CD music, I think that game soundtracks have gone downhill ever since. Some may not be as good as they could be, but like PCE PSG there is just so much unbelievable music regardless of the instruments used, but there is also a tonne of perfect sounding games that will never age (Ys III, Kabukiden, Gate of Thunder, Neo Nectaris, Lords of Thunder, Monster Lair, etc).
Some PCE music samples that use sounds that are not just "beeps and boops", sometimes referred to as "FM-like": http://superpcenginegrafx.com/misc/pce_sounds.mp3
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 01, 2009, 01:35:58 PM
Quote from: Black Tiger
not only do I love PCE CD music, I think that game soundtracks have gone downhill ever since.
Thank you!!! I couldn't agree more if I tried. That is not to say there haven't been some great game soundtracks since then, but they are so few and far between. These days game music is mainly just ambient or it tries to be a movie score. Rarely is there anything memorable and even more rarely is there anything worth buying a soundtrack for (or recording directly from the game itself).
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 01, 2009, 01:41:41 PM
the SMS in all honor, but if I can't stand something then it is the earsplitting blibblubb PSG of that machine. sure there're some rare exeption like wonderboy III - dragons trap, but in generally the SMS PSG sound was horrible, esspecially compared to FC/NES or c64 SID. in this particular case, i'm such glad that I can switch to FM for most of the mark III games.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 01, 2009, 01:47:46 PM
not only do I love PCE CD music, I think that game soundtracks have gone downhill ever since.
Thank you!!! I couldn't agree more if I tried. That is not to say there haven't been some great game soundtracks since then, but they are so few and far between. These days game music is mainly just ambient or it tries to be a movie score. Rarely is there anything memorable and even more rarely is there anything worth buying a soundtrack for (or recording directly from the game itself).
QFT!
the main problem is, that the game soundtracks of later generations are no typical game musics anymore. as you said, they tried too much to sound like real music or some typical movie scores.
even the pce had a lot of "almost real" musics like in GoT or WoT, but it still does express the typical game style of music. that wht i'm missing the most nowadays.
the PSone and SS era still had it in some games like guilty gear, ridge racer etc. and of course in some of the arcade shooties.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: ccovell on November 01, 2009, 04:39:18 PM
by the way, doesn't fall FM also in the category of PSG? the term PSG just stands for Programmable Sound Generator...
Yeah, but you're missing the point. It's what gamers and the industry used. Anyway, to distinguish the different types of audio outputs, most Japanese companies use PSG < WSG < FM < PCM, plus "noise" as an extra feature or sound channel.
The PCE is technically WSG, as the waveforms can be freely defined.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 02, 2009, 08:27:39 AM
even the pce had a lot of "almost real" musics like in GoT or WoT, but it still does express the typical game style of music. that wht i'm missing the most nowadays.
almost real? I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone actual played guitar in a studio setting for the music in those games.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 02, 2009, 09:08:00 AM
even the pce had a lot of "almost real" musics like in GoT or WoT, but it still does express the typical game style of music. that wht i'm missing the most nowadays.
almost real? I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone actual played guitar in a studio setting for the music in those games.
i mean, that it wasn't supossed to be "real" music but still "game" music. which was/is awesome.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 02, 2009, 09:40:53 AM
even the pce had a lot of "almost real" musics like in GoT or WoT, but it still does express the typical game style of music. that wht i'm missing the most nowadays.
almost real? I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone actual played guitar in a studio setting for the music in those games.
i mean, that it wasn't supossed to be "real" music but still "game" music. which was/is awesome.
ohhhh. :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Digi.k on November 03, 2009, 10:42:12 AM
dusted off the pc engine and fired up some sound testing cause of this thread.. :-"
should be able to play it without the need to download .. (I hope, just click on the black bar that appears).. anyway some short mp3's
but still nothing can beat the good old SID chip from the c64, when it comes to uniqueness and warmness, even it was very limited in channels etc. :)
I'm a SID fan too, although I never had a C64.
There are a few Megadrive FM tunes I like a lot - Strider springs to mind for one.
oh yeah. strider has very goof use of FM.
btw. spreading some SID LOVE :)
http://www.hvsc.c64.org/
&
http://www.brothersoft.com/deliplayer-62987.html
= LOVE!! :D
use the simpleskin (http://image.wareseeker.com/software/Audio-Multimedia/Audio-Players/scr_deliplayer-2.03b.png) and via rightclick [Play] you can choose also the sub songs :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: sunteam_paul on November 05, 2009, 04:18:18 AM
FM fans might enjoy this Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/breadrack) I just discovered.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Black Tiger on November 05, 2009, 08:53:23 AM
FM fans might enjoy this Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/breadrack) I just discovered.
Awesome. :clap: Thanks for the link.
wonderful - wunderbar :clap:
reminds me of how cool the FM in shadow dancer was/is :)
:edit:
the mystic defender is great. it's almost untouched from the MD version. lol.. one of the best MD FM BGMs in existence. it really used the FM of the MD at its max. power! :clap:
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on November 06, 2009, 06:06:47 PM
I agree that PSG (or FM) can sound better than bad redbook. In the early days of CD gaming, companies had piss-poor musical abilities. R-Type HuCard sounds a billion times better than R-Type CD.
I can only refer you to this (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=761.msg4576#msg4576). I have used the same argument to defend PCE's Double Dragon II Red Book, as well. Variety is the spice of life :).
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on November 06, 2009, 07:08:25 PM
Anyway, to distinguish the different types of audio outputs, most Japanese companies use PSG < WSG < FM < PCM, plus "noise" as an extra feature or sound channel.
The PCE is technically WSG, as the waveforms can be freely defined.
Do you have a link to more resources on WSG / PSG distinction?
Also, how does the PCE differ from Gameboy/Famicom in terms of "PSG"?
I want to learn... even the most basic info on console/computer sound would be helpful. Thanks in advance :)
I had the same problem with Legendary Axe II for years, but finally came to appreciate it.
I think that was simply a matter of personal taste. Exposure certainly is a factor, but I can tell you that I only recently (last few years) began appreciating most tunes in JJ & Jeff. Back in the day, I thought nearly all of the songs were GOOFY and juvenile and uninspired. Back then, I was looking for music that I thought was "kool", and JJ & Jeff failed to deliver.
Now, today, I can appreciate JJ & Jeff's music for what it is, without expecting it to have a brooding, kick-ass soundtrack like that of Legendary Axe II. Man, back in the day, I wanted every game to be like LAII... whether it was appropriate or not to a game's setting/atmosphere.
IN DEFENSE OF REDBOOK THAT EMPLOYS CRAPPY-SOUNDING SYNTHS
A few years ago, I remember Paranoia_Dragon mentioning that he was not a fan of the Telenet "house-band sound" because he had a particularly tough time with the keyboards/synthesizers (which were very 80's, aesthetically).
I totally understand this.
It really is an issue of personal preference. If 80's synths sound cheezy/lame to you, then it is hard to overlook synth-heavy music in a lot of PCE Red Book.
Personally, I really love the Telenet "house-band sound" (I refer directly to Valis series/Red Alert/Final Zone II/Avenger/Psychic Storm/Lady Phantom/etc.), but I understand that it will never be everyone's cup of tea.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: nat on November 06, 2009, 07:25:06 PM
I'm with you, I've always regarded the Telenet "house-band sound" as one of the company's definite strengths-- regardless of the overall game quality, I can almost always rely on Telenet for great music.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Arkhan on November 07, 2009, 12:45:54 AM
Anyway, to distinguish the different types of audio outputs, most Japanese companies use PSG < WSG < FM < PCM, plus "noise" as an extra feature or sound channel.
The PCE is technically WSG, as the waveforms can be freely defined.
Do you have a link to more resources on WSG / PSG distinction?
Also, how does the PCE differ from Gameboy/Famicom in terms of "PSG"?
I want to learn... even the most basic info on console/computer sound would be helpful. Thanks in advance :)
WSG means each channels waveform is userdefinable.
on the game boy , two channels are square-wave only, one is user definable, and the other is noise.
on the NES, there aren't any user definable waveforms. You have 2 pulsewaves, a triangle, a noise, and a PCM channel.
You can edit the parameters, but it's not the same as being able to define the waveform from start to finish like on PCE.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: ccovell on November 07, 2009, 01:31:59 AM
Anyway, to distinguish the different types of audio outputs, most Japanese companies use PSG < WSG < FM < PCM, plus "noise" as an extra feature or sound channel.
The PCE is technically WSG, as the waveforms can be freely defined.
Do you have a link to more resources on WSG / PSG distinction?
Also, how does the PCE differ from Gameboy/Famicom in terms of "PSG"?
I can't find any outside resources that explain different types of computer-generated audio; probably the general public has no idea what the difference is between systems like the NES, SMS, GB, and PCE.
Generally, PSG is used to describe chips that generate primitive waveforms, such as sine waves, square waves, sawtooth waves, triangle waves, and random noise.
WSG lets one wavelength be freely defined, allowing any shape and quality of a repetitive waveform. It's more advanced than PSG, of course, but still pretty limiting in complexity.
FM, of course, has sine waves as the basic waveform, but has several layers of operators to adjust the dynamic overtones/frequency of the resulting sound.
PCM usually means an ability to stream samples at varying frequencies and of any length -- limited by memory.
---
Of course, the NES has a dedicated DPCM channel, as well as the ability to have samples streamed through the same channel, but the other 4 of its channels are PSG. Systems like the NES, SMS, SID, etc have the ability to play samples, but most people don't call all of its audio PCM. Perhaps it's because of the extreme CPU overhead needed to play samples (PCM would usually mean dedicated hardware to stream samples without CPU hand-holding), or perhaps it's because 1 channel of PCM can't be seriously called PCM capability -- you can't really make music with 1-note sample poly(mono?)phony.
The Game Boy has, what, 3 PSG channels and one WSG channel. People seldom notice it, but it does sound pretty good in the right hands. In the wrong hands, it's just made into another static triangle channel to copy the NES' layout.
If anyone finds errors or disagrees with the above, please explain why.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tom on November 10, 2009, 03:45:10 PM
WSG is a great term for PCE's audio hardware. PSG is programmable sound Generation or pulse sound generation. But it's a generic term.
Most PSG is just square tones/waves. The look like this ____---- . On NES you can change the duty to __------ and _------- to change the sound of the tone some what. The NES also has a triangle channel, although there's no volume control and the steps are kinda rough - but atleast you have a bass line channel. And most/all PSG systems have noise channel output. SMS is severely limited in PSG, 3 none changeable square channels and 1 noise channel. No duty cycles or triangle channel, and noise channel only has 1 period value unless you sacrifice a square channel period divider so you can change it's values - making it a 2 square + 1 noise in that mode.
Like Chris said, NES also has a DPCM channel. It feeds itself which is super nice for a low mhz CPU. But the sound is very filtered due to it being 1bit delta PCM. Still, SMB3 used it for some good samples. NES has some pretty good PSG out of the box.
FM is a totally different beast. Technically, it's pretty simple in execution. On the Genesis and most Yamaha chips, it's just a sinewave. Some wave forms. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Waveforms.svg/760px-Waveforms.svg.png
FM just oscillates the sinewave at really high frequencies. It creates overtones. If you vary the amount of oscillation of the frequencies, you get brighter and duller "timbre". That's the basics of it. Some FM chips has different waveforms for the output or the oscillating modifier, but the Genesis only has sine. So you don't get some of those PSG or WSG type sounds, but you do get really nice low bassy sounds. This is why FM on the Genesis and NEC PC's have a really distinct sound. Compared to a Yamaha keyboard, which has much more options and FX amps you can run the keyboard through. Genesis FM by itself has poor noise generation too, but it can use the SMS channels and often does (SOR uses the SMS PSG chip quite a bit. That lead in the opening is PSG).
PCE's audio is similar to PSG in that is has no "timbre" control like FM, but you can write whatever type of waveform want. It also have a really high frequency divider. Regardless of the output tone, the resolution is 3.58mhz steps. PCE also has two volume controls per channel, which is really nice. One is mono, 5bit value but logarithmic (which is what you want), and the second one is pan: 4bit log values for each left/right. The mono volume control is usually for software volume envelope handling. Anyway, with custom waveforms - you can do sine, square, saw, triangle, and a ton of others that I have no idea what they are called.
You can do filtering type effects on the PCE too. To give it a "timbre" type of bend that most synths have, by updating the channel's waveform with a gradual changing/morphing one. The only game that comes close to this that I've seen is Bloody Wolf. Other things you can do is mid range frequency modulation and mid range amplitude modulation using the 7khz timer chip - and even "sync" where it resets the waveform pointer without turning off the channel. Again, never even seen this in any chiptune engines yet. And lastly, you've got single channel sample writing *with* volume control still.
.... what were we talking about?
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on November 10, 2009, 04:59:23 PM
Thank you, gentlemen, for filling in the technical details for the PCE, SMS, NES and Genny. If anyone wants to add further info (or oddities), go for it.
Quote
The Game Boy has, what, 3 PSG channels and one WSG channel. People seldom notice it, but it does sound pretty good in the right hands. In the wrong hands, it's just made into another static triangle channel to copy the NES' layout.
I agree: the Gameboy is certainly capable of delivering some great, well-crafted tunes.
Quote
You can do filtering type effects on the PCE too. To give it a "timbre" type of bend that most synths have, by updating the channel's waveform with a gradual changing/morphing one. The only game that comes close to this that I've seen is Bloody Wolf.
Thanks for pointing out Bloody Wolf's use of filtering effects.
In your estimation, what other titles employ unique/sophisticated techniques for music (or even sound effects, which we have not really discussed).
Thanks in advance...
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 10, 2009, 08:38:03 PM
Here's some game music I recorded myself from real hardware:
PSG (TurboGrafx-16):
FM: (Sega Genesis) (Sounds waaaaay better than the arcade)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on November 10, 2009, 11:22:43 PM
FM: (Sega Genesis) Midnight Resistance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU7sv_oeWTA) (Sounds waaaaay better than the arcade)
Batman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFUhRg7OXmY)
Streets of Rage 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OQpinEGlXA)
Great stuff. I commented over on YouTube. I suppose I should have commented here, though. I'll never get sick of SOR 1/2, though. It sounds even cleaner than I remember it.
PS: Please honor my request!
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 10, 2009, 11:57:21 PM
I agree: the Gameboy is certainly capable of delivering some great, well-crafted tunes.
especially when Konami had its fingers in!!
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Joe Redifer on November 11, 2009, 09:01:12 AM
I'll be glad to post more tunes. Some PC Engine games give me a hard time due to their lack of sound tests and stages that let me be with only the music playing and no other sound effects going on, though.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: esteban on November 11, 2009, 12:42:22 PM
I'll be glad to post more tunes. Some PC Engine games give me a hard time due to their lack of sound tests and stages that let me be with only the music playing and no other sound effects going on, though.
Absolutely. Lack of a soundtest stinks.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 11, 2009, 12:54:05 PM
I'll be glad to post more tunes. Some PC Engine games give me a hard time due to their lack of sound tests and stages that let me be with only the music playing and no other sound effects going on, though.
Absolutely. Lack of a soundtest stinks.
sometimes they are hidden :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Black Tiger on November 11, 2009, 02:02:13 PM
Flash cards are worth buying just to play PCE sound roms on real hardware.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tatsujin on November 11, 2009, 02:15:58 PM
is there a HES player implemented on the flash card?
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Tom on November 11, 2009, 03:45:20 PM
. Mednafen rocks for PCE audio accuracy.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Black Tiger on November 11, 2009, 04:43:38 PM
is there a HES player implemented on the flash card?
No, but there is an HES to PCE rom converter. :)
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: ccovell on November 12, 2009, 01:01:00 AM
A properly-made HES file is a PCE ROM. Just pad it to whatever size flash carts need (128k? 64k?...) and it should work.
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Black Tiger on November 12, 2009, 02:13:19 AM
I'm pretty sure that with the tototek card they need to be renamed as .PCE files as well as be a minimum size. I know that both HES files and many PCE sound roms didn't work as-is the first time I slapped them on the card. Doesn't the conversion to a PCE rom add controls to play them as well?
Title: Re: FM music or PSG music?
Post by: Necromancer on November 12, 2009, 02:35:24 AM
Midnight Resistance - Sega Genesis/Mega Drive - by Hitoshi Sakimoto - More great music from this game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnbZtLu6y8I
Streets of Rage - Sega Genesis/Mega Drive - by Yuzo Koshiro - Boss theme from the first Streets of Rage.
Vapor Trail - Sega Genesis/Mega Drive - by Hiroaki "MARO" Yoshid & Tatsuya "KIWCH" Kiuchi - The rockin' main tune.
I won't comment on TG-16 tunes (I dig 'em all), so I'll focus on the others: Vapor Trail has a really nice quality to it--everything works. It outshines the track from Midnight Resistance (which is still nice!). Of course, the earlier track you posted (MR's Odd-numbered level music) is SO GODDAMNED WONDERFUL that I'm willing to forgive the relative weakness of the theme from the even-numbered levels.
Of course, you can never err with Streets of Rage. I still remember how amazing it was back in the day... and it hasn't lost any of its charm. It's a damn shame there weren't more soundtracks of this caliber on any console. It really blurs the lines between VGM and "real music".