PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
Tech and Homebrew => Turbo/PCE Game/Tool Development => Topic started by: nodtveidt on November 19, 2009, 03:21:47 PM
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According to someone on the gamefaqs forum, several PCE sceners have been "silent out of politeness" on the subject of this game. So if that's the case, it's time to break the silence. What needs improvement? I want specific details, not bashing and nonconstructive insults. As I said there, and I'll say it again here...this game is for all of you, so I want it to be a game you can truly enjoy. So I wanna know what it needs to change and/or improve for that to happen. This is not a thread to talk about what the game gets right but a thread to discuss what it gets wrong. So, it's time to spill the beans.
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The only thing I haven't been keen on is the battle backgrounds, but as far as you've said, they are going to improve by release time, and are based off the original work!
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Wasn't me. I've never even played it!
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I am curious:
"Of course, if you're referring to the current in-game art, the ones that were shown on that review of the beta, then feel free to ignore them as they are not even remotely final art; they were drawn by the sprite artist and not by our current cutscene artist."
So the beta is using old artwork..and a lot of it will be swapped out?
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So the beta is using old artwork..and a lot of it will be swapped out?
All of it will be swapped.
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The cutscene that plays in the very beginning is Keranu's original cutscene work. Black Tiger's new artwork isn't in place yet.
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I actually like the battle backgrounds, but I think that the overworld map, castle, and tower could use a little help in the 'pretty' department, as they lack the detail, variety, and colorful look found in the other towns, caves, and what not. As I've mentioned before, I also don't like how a few of the doorways have corridors immediately behind (above) them; this makes them look more like magic portals than passageways, for you'd end up in the corridor on the other side and not outside if they were simple doors. Finally, the game is kinda short and the overworld map is awfully small; the EX mode should help the former and add some replay value, and the latter is likely the same as the original game, so I suppose they can't really be helped. No biggie.
P.S. - No, it ain't me running my mouth at other forums, for there are no other forums. Who are these 'silent out of politeness' chumps and why are they afraid to give constructive criticism?
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I added a new battle background today, though B_T said it's a rough draft:
(http://www.nodtveidt.net/msr100.html)
Many of the tiles are Seldane's work; I'm pretty sure that the world map is at least. The Tower is mostly my own work, and is modeled after the original tiles for the Tower. I'm really not much of a tile artist for RPGs (let me at those shooters though!). I think Seldane did the castle too, I'm not 100% sure but that might have been lord_cack's work...it's been ages since the tileset was completed for it. Virtually all of the EX Game extra tiles are lord_cack's work. We can bug lord_cack to see if he would like to make new tilesets for the Tower and world map...I already bugged Keranu to make a new statue for the Tower. :D
The world map is indeed very small...that's how it was in the original. Of course, most of EX Game takes place in a massive dungeon that was designed by me and is mostly randomly generated. I know exactly what you mean about the doorways to the outside though, and I'll make sure to make some changes in that respect.
The 'silent out of politeness' people turned out to be Emerald Rocker and his entourage. I find it more than just a little sad when a community as small as this one that is dedicated to a console as obscure as the PCE forms cliques like that.
Mysterious Song was originally a mini-RPG and that's why I decided to convert it for the PCE. I was going to do the whole thing myself as a learning experience for PCE development before I took on my huge RPG project. However, it was this game that formed Frozen Utopia. The original Mysterious Song was also supposed to have a series of sequels, but since that never happened, I took the initiative and extended the existing game, and that's what EX Game is.
My own RPG rivals large epics such as Phantasy Star II in terms of length, and that was what I was going to do after the MS conversion. Developing MS has been a hell of a learning experience, and there are a ton of things I will do very differently for the next RPG, especially considering the fact that I don't have to attempt to follow an existing design; I can make it up as I go if I want to.
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I find it more than just a little sad when a community as small as this one that is dedicated to a console as obscure as the PCE forms cliques like that.
It's so sadly true ;(
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I would say don't worry too much about people "being silent" or whatever, people will get the game or not.
Looking at what images and information are available, there are things about the game that interest me, and other things that make me wary, but honestly, don't make the game based on what I or anyone else think, you should be making the game that you will enjoy, and be proud of, and if anyone doesn't like an element, well, screw them!
To extrapolate, I think by asking what people don't like, you may simply be asking a question that's going to make somebody feel bad about all the work they did, rather than helping you out. Know what I mean?
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but honestly, don't make the game based on what I or anyone else think, you should be making the game that you will enjoy, and be proud of, and if anyone doesn't like an element, well, screw them!
I totally agree with this statement. It doesn't matter what you do, someone will still complain. Shit, you could send everyone $10 for no reason at all and there's always going to be some prick that complains that you should have sent $20.
I am just glad to see that there are people like you willing to take the time to keep the Turbo and PCE alive. Keep up the good work and don't let haters get you down.
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First off, I agree with everything Exodus just said.
Second -- and this is to Rover -- nice job at taking an obscure argument that only a few people knew about and blowing it up in front of a bigger audience.
In this thread, people who "stay silent out of politeness" have already been referred to as "chumps" and "afraid to give constructive criticism". But when people do speak up, they are called "f***ing d*****bags" in shoutbox. So what's the winning answer? The winning answer is apparently to pat Rover on the back without questioning anything. I've never liked Rover, so I thought I was doing pretty well by keeping my mouth shut. That was my way of supporting Mysterious Song.
For anyone who's curious, this drama began when Mysterious Song was recently hyped at message boards across the internet. On one particular board, someone outside of the usual PCEFX crowd looked at the screenshots and expressed his dislike of those screens (as well as providing reasons). This person was treated like an aberration. Someone even implied he's not a "true" hardcore Turbo/PCE fan because he wasn't interested in Mysterious Song like "everyone else was".
Translation: he was belittled because he gave an honest but negative opinion, and belittled because he's not a "hardcore" PCEFX member. Ironic that Rover is the one complaining about cliques.
Since I happened to share opinions with the naysayer, I was irritated. I proceeded to make fun of the things I don't like -- which is admittedly based only on screenshots and hearsay. I'm not claiming to be standing up for justice or anything like that. I was angry, that's all. After everything that happened, the original naysayer probably regrets ever expressing his opinion in the first place. That's why people "stay silent out of politeness". Sometimes it's not worth giving an honest opinion, because no one wants to listen.
Fortunately, I don't particularly care if people here think I'm a "chump", "afraid to give constructive criticism", or a "f***ing d*****bag". I've always had an antagonistic relationship with many people here. I like to joke around when others are busy being serious, and I do have different opinions about things. But if I go to the trouble to tell you that I like your game, you'll know I mean it.
I will end by again saying I agree with Exodus. At this stage of development, this thread is pointless. Release the game, hopefully get some truthful feedback, and then apply that feedback constructively to the next game, if there is one.
Thank you for your time. You may now carry on with vilifying me in shoutbox. Nothing brings people together like a good villain!
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Emerald Rocker, I never needed your approval, and I have no idea what your problem with me is. And at this stage, I really don't care what your problem is with me either. But keep in mind that what I say and what others say are completely different. I welcome critique when it's spoken properly, but I will gladly tell you to f*ck off if you can't critique properly. I don't go fishing for compliments, and I don't run with the pack. Just because someone else backlashed doesn't mean I'm going to. I oversee all of Frozen Utopia's operations, and the final word on everything is mine. So if there's critique to be given, it needs to be given to me, and I need to know about it.
And if you didn't want the "obscure thread" blown up in front of a bigger audience, perhaps you shouldn't have posted it for public consumption in the first place. You could just as easily have sent me a PM here, where you know I am a lot. You seem to be a pretty smart guy, though your actions sometimes betray this.
And don't think I didn't see your subtle stab at homebrew efforts with your bogus "Octology" thread. I just didn't say anything because it would be great if it was for real. There aren't enough PCE developers. If you do ever decide to try to make a PCE game, there are people who could help you get started, and I'm one of them.
And yeah...villains always bring people together. Look at the USA in 2001 when they turned Osama bin Laden into a villain!
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Second -- and this is to Rover -- nice job at taking an obscure argument that only a few people knew about and blowing it up in front of a bigger audience.
With all due respect, things have been quoted in this thread that do not exist on PCEFX.com, so I think people already knew. :-/
I think what alot of it boils down to is that the criticism that has been given (gamefaqs) wasn't very polite.
Words were exchanged and the situation was defused, so I think now that the developers are aware that there is rude criticism happening either in the open OR "in the open" (behind peoples backs in chat rooms and such),and they would like some explanations instead of empty insults and harsh words for something they don't *have* to be doing.
Its a community project!
And don't think I didn't see your subtle stab at homebrew efforts with your bogus "Octology" thread.
That was a stab? Really? :(
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Arkhan: that guy's criticism wasn't half bad, actually. It was mostly respectful, and he raised some valid points, although with a distinctly Gamefaqs feel. But what I want to know is where this other thread is where someone posted negative stuff and got cut down for it.
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I don't think calling the game resume padding, and referring to the art as 10th grader material is very respectful...
but like I said, some words went back and forth, everything got defused, and after that little scuffle emerged some more helpful criticism.
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Well, that's standard fare for gamefaqs. :D
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Criticism is criticism. I've experienced and seen some down right bold and/or not holding back, seriously cold criticism (not program related, but creative related). There's nothing wrong with that IMO. It has its place and it has its purpose. Sometimes (if not all the time) you really need it as part of the corrective process (really depends on your level of skill). People passing hollow comments like "good job" when they really don't mean, hurt more than anything else - when you're not looking for hollow praise. There is a threshold though and you learn to ignore certain criticism just because it's beyond your control. What I don't like, and has no reason for being, it making fun or snide remarks or just plain talking shit. Even if it's semi private or fully private. There's no excuse for it. You know who you are. That just out right make you a dick, nothing less and probably a lot more. There are homebrew dev out there that I don't care for or is just not my style, or does anything for me. But I never make fun of someone else's hard work.
Like Nodt said; If you've got objective criticism, let's hear it. If it's beyond our control to correct, then it'll be ignored (because there is nothing we can do about it). But if it *is* something that can be fixed, and we see valid points or multiple opinions on the same matter - then we can try to make whatever correction within our limits at this point.
-Tom
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Yeah more or less. At least the whole situation blew over in a matter of what a day? :)
@Tom: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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For anyone who's curious, this drama began when Mysterious Song was recently hyped at message boards across the internet. On one particular board, someone outside of the usual PCEFX crowd looked at the screenshots and expressed his dislike of those screens (as well as providing reasons). This person was treated like an aberration. Someone even implied he's not a "true" hardcore Turbo/PCE fan because he wasn't interested in Mysterious Song like "everyone else was".
Way to blow things out of proportion. For everyone's reading reference, the thread is here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=916397&topic=52276134). Read it and tell me if any of us tore lxcainxl (the person Emerald is referring to above) apart for his criticism. He spoke in a respectable enough matter and Nod and I responded in a similar manner. And despite what you say, Zig, his criticism still wasn't that specific: simply saying "the art is out of proportion" is not enough to let us know what needs fixed. Saying our game isn't "professional" doesn't cut it either, and if MSR is as unprofessional as he claimed, then I don't think Super Fighter Team (http://www.superfighter.com/) would have contacted us about publishing our game. Again we welcome criticism and urge it, or else this thread wouldn't be here in the first place nor would we have corrected any criticism that was brought to our attention in the past (like the old cinemas, the item drop option, animated water tiles, etc...).
And as far as the criticism you provided, which you interpreted by a beta tester's review, regarding the short length and high level grinding, I already cleared that up in the GameFAQs thread. If you have any other criticism, please let us know.
What I don't like, and has no reason for being, it making fun or snide remarks or just plain talking shit. Even if it's semi private or fully private. There's no excuse for it. You know who you are. That just out right make you a dick, nothing less and probably a lot more. There are homebrew dev out there that I don't care for or is just not my style, or does anything for me. But I never make fun of someone else's hard work.
Exactly. Zig claims he's "supporting" us by keeping silent, but he has been mocking and making sarcastic remarks about this project since day one. If this project doesn't interest him like he says, then he doesn't have to obsessively read all the posts regarding it and making sly 'innocent' comments like he has been. It's this kind of attitude that can't help make me believe that he's jealous of our work, because lets face it, every gamer dreams of making their own game at some point or another. Some people don't realize that making your own games IS possible and if Zig ever decides to pick up game design, I'll be there to support him all the way.
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7 deleted posts in row don't help that thread posterity much ;)
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I haven't said much about Mysterious Song, but I have thought a bit about it, so I'll say some things now since the topic came up.
There are a lot of things about what I've seen so far that don't really do it for me, but I really want to see stuff like this come out so in the big picture the good massively outweighs the bad.
The art...doesn't do it for me. It does looks pretty "junior high margin" to me. Could I do better? Yeah, actually. Will I? Hell no, I'm way too f*cking lazy! Whatever makes it into an actual game is automatically better than shit that doesn't even exist. Also, I'm a bit wary of pre-ordering when it seems like everything is a placeholder, or "not final version", or whatever and the development cycle has already been so long.
What does do it for me is the fact that its a real Japanese style RPG, and its home brew for a system that has no official dev tools. I can do graphics and music and other stuff but I simply cannot program. I tried to get into it. Its just an alien language to me. Worse than an alien language. Its just pure gibberish. The fact that an actual game is being made for a system like the PCE in people's spare time is just amazing to me. Even though I have personal problems with some of the staff, I'm really happy for you guys, and the scene, to see this being done.
I have a sort of secret hope that once this is done you would be able to crank out sequels, side stories, whatever using all of the same code except for graphics, music, script, just like official developers did with legit releases back in the day. Or, that you will release the source so that other people can do it.
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well I tore into cain some for saying the game was resume padding and that the art looked like something a 10th grader cooked up, followed by mocking the professionalism of the game...since that's not really respectful criticism, it's just rude...
we exchanged words for a few posts and then let everything go since it was a giant pile of crap. Nodt cleared things up regarding the art being 'stand in', along with some other stuff and the result was the useful criticism that came from it...
It needed to be cleared up, since it was part of the reason things were said.
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I can only comment on the limited screenshots I've seen, but as far as what I don't like: the cinema style isn't particularly my cup o' tea. I think a full-on western style art would've suited my tastes better (or full-on Japanese style, whichever).
My likes: background art, I think that's pretty awesome. And a new JRPG for the Turbo/PCE -- I'm there.
Bottom line: I was excited enough to cough up for the pre-order.
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I can do graphics and music and other stuff but I simply cannot program.
Then you can get into a group, or form you own. You don't have to be the programmer and the programmer doesn't have to be the groups leader/main person. It might not PCE scene, but there's plenty of systems out there - from the 16bit era. PCE requires some serious programmers to do anything... well, serious/fast/flashy/etc projects. C doesn't cut it for PCE. And even basic ASM knowledge really isn't enough if you're trying to push the system. You've really got to cut your teeth on this style processor and system. SNES really scene isn't in much better shape either. The CPU's banking/memory layout that Nintendo added on top of the CPU's existing design, doesn't exact make it C friendly/optimized either.
Genesis on the other hand, has a processor built for C. And I know of one person personally building a graphic/music library for GCC in all ASM (no, it's not Pier Solar team). You can do a serious project in C with no inline ASM help for Genesis. Ecco the Dolphin was actually written in C, before C compilers were even optimized as they are now. Anyway, my point is; is that anyone can learn C and many programmer already know it. So your chances getting a group together for a Genesis homebrew project are going to increase exponentially once this library is finished. There's your chance. The only downside is the server color limit. It's such a bitch. I know, 'cause I've done some Genesis dev ;)
Finding a PCE programmer for any serious PCE assembly language project (and one that has time): pretty damn slim. Well, unless you can convince some NES hardcore coders to come over to the PCE - but good luck on that (because they're hardcore NES guys. Like us, they do it out of love for their system). Finding a programmer for the Genesis that already has experience in C: pretty decent.
Others might ask, why not just go PC instead? Well, where's the fun in that!? Anyway, now I'm pushing this thread offtopic....
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For the record, Rover and I have agreed to disagree.
Tom, I agree with most of your post. One big problem happens when a critic who cares (as opposed to a dismissive critic) voices an opinion and feels it is ignored. They will escalate their tone, making the complaint harsher, in an effort to get a real response. Creators usually don't like that, so the end result is that everyone gets mad and calls each other dicks. I've seen that happen so many times in so many fields. That's not what happened here. I don't have a personal connection to MS or any of the designers. I haven't even played the game, all I have to go on are screenshots and hearsay. Most criticism comes after the game is already published and beyond the point of correction. If you're the kind of guy who can pull the positives from even the harshest feedback, and put that towards the future, then I wish you only the best.
Keranu, you and I have not chatted in years, so stop acting like an authority with this "mocking and sarcastic remarks" stuff. If I've been spreading such unsupportive messages about Mysterious Song since day one, then why were my recent comments noteworthy enough to warrant a topic and shocked outrage? You appear to have misinterpreted my comment about "people staying silent out of politeness [about the art]" as meaning "we silent people all revealed ourselves to each other, and have been sitting in chatrooms making fun of you".
That's not what "silent" means.
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I'll go on record to say, that I'm probably one of the biggest reasons that this & our 3 other games(well, one is all Lord_Cack's, so I haven't pushed the issue much) have been pushed back so much. First, Nod was gonna release this game on is own 5 years ago, I listened to the music, & offered to spice it up a little. Then, with this & every other game(Neutopia 3 & 1 of our 2 soon to be announced projects), I always come around & say "can we change this, can we add paralax here, what if we added this, how about better water animation, can this be moved over here, etc.?". I'm always the guy to push things further, which means things getting revised. For example, our secret project was supposed to be a small game that we were going to release while still working on MSR & N3 to whet people's appetites. I came along & turned it into a full game with all my questions & suggestions. I do take blame for this, as it's made us redo the games gfx several times.
After that, we have gained & lost atleast a couple of members. We had some disargreements with Dev X, & Seldane hasn't been around much, if at all on the internet. I can't recall if there was anyone else. But even then, we all have had our share of problems in life, Nod, Dev X, & Lord_Cack especially, & then more recently Black Tiger has been going thru some difficulties. When we had Dev X for instance, he lost his home at one point out in New Orleans, so, life always finds a way to interfere, but, even without Dev X & Sel, we've found a way to continue with our work, now to the breaking point of releasing this game finally. The core of the group has remained & stuck with it thru thick & thin!
And ofcoarse, as I stated above about other games we're working on, those have also gotten in the way of completely finishing MSR, for various reasons though right now, we're doing nothing BUT MSR, with exception to Lorc_Cack working on his main project when he doesn't have anything to do on MSR, & me, since I'm done with MSR, I have my own little project I'm working on, partly out of love for the TG, but also partly to continue to hone my skills in music for our next game, of which I have roughly half done musically, but would like to expand a little more(as usual) upon. Not to mention, I really want to make N3 killer in the ost department, though I know I'm not, & never will be up to par with Ryo Yonemitsu, JDK Band, Yuzo Koshiro, or any of the guy's of T's Music, I'm certinaly gonna try.
The hardest part is incorporating live instruments into the songs, though, I don't want to overdue that either. Some games overdo the guitar, hopefully I won't. But, even then you can't please everybody, it's impossible. I've found that there are even instruments that fit songs perfectly to me but to someone else, they might hate that particular instrument for whatever reason, so I have to make difficult choices in that respect.
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Theres no such thing as overdoing the guitar!
:-"
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2-cent observations:
1. Gamefaqs.
2. Drama.
3. I still can't believe any of us post at Gamefaqs.
4. I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't mind waiting. We should not worry about timeframes for homebrew projects, since there will always be unanticipated complications. It would be healthier if we simply said to ourselves: "Game X will be released in the next decade, give or take a few years."
5. PCE MS has simply improved over time. Personally, I am glad that this project has evolved and changed. It has made it more special and endearing.
6. I don't mind waiting. I suspect that MS may actually be released in 2012. I don't mind. :)
7. There is no way to please everyone.
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Yeah, GameFAQS...QEF?
The only reason why I even look at the forums there is when a new Super Robot Wars game comes out and I need info before an actual FAQ comes out. This is a pretty rare occasion. I do have a log in, but its probably been ten years since I used it.
Most of the time the place is second only to Youtube on the "holy shit I can't believe people this ignorant and f*cked up exist" scale.
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most of the time I find that going to gamefaqs for serious conversation is like going to a meth lab to talk ethics.
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flee :lol:
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flee :lol:
AN EPICFAIL IS APPROACHING!!!
[ul][li]Attack[/li][li]Magic[/li][li]Defend[/li][li]Flee![/li][/ul]
:)
its gamefaqs!
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C doesn't cut it for PCE. And even basic ASM knowledge really isn't enough if you're trying to push the system.
Genesis on the other hand, has a processor built for C.
Tom, I am going to make a comment that is totally off-topic, but I have a lot of curiosity about your post. Why did you say that C doesn't cut it for PCE, and Genesis does? I know that you have done lots of works for the PC Engine, and I would like to know your experiences...
I ask this because I have made a couple of things with HuC, and in fact I have been surprised by this wonderful C compiler. What things does Genesis have and PC Engine does not have, as far as C programming is related? Are you talking about things like using bidimensional arrays (they don't exist in HuC) or similar things? Or maybe you are speaking about things at a lower level?
Please, keep in mind that I am not trying to create a flame. In fact, I admire you as an expert PC Engine programmer and I would love to hear your opinion, because I am starting to use HuC (I have worked one year with it and I only have done very simple things) and I would like to know what things will be difficult to do with it, and why Genesis has an advantage.
And... sorry for the off-topic :wink:
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It has to do with the CPU. The 6502 and its descendants, including the HuC6280 and the 65816, are much better suited to assembly than C, but the 68000's design is better suited to a C compiler. It seems to be harder to write an optimizing C compiler for a 6502-based CPU than a 68000 CPU just because of the difference in architectures. In order to take full advantage of a 6502-based CPU, you have to know its design very well and write highly efficient assembly code; any slouch can code C for the 68000 and get decent results.
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Oh, I think that I understand. Thank you for your response!! :D
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I like the new battle background. The originals were dithered beyond belief. I think this is a good idea. I cannot comment on anything else, though, as I have not played the game. :wink:
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most of the time I find that going to gamefaqs for serious conversation is like going to a meth lab to talk ethics.
hahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahha
*falls out of chair*
hahahhaa
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most of the time I find that going to gamefaqs for serious conversation is like going to a meth lab to talk ethics.
QFT :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Since it is being asked for, I will give my opinion:
I do not care for the graphics at all. They look like a very, VERY early HuCard game. The new battle background posted in this thread looks a little better, but still kind of generic... it could be from nearly any RPG. I noticed screen tearing during the fade-ins and outs in the demo.
From what I recall from playing the demo, the game seemed to move very slow. Talking to NPCs didn't happen as smoothly as it does in other RPGs. I realize the game wasn't finished at the time, so these things could very well have changed. A run button might help. The demo also kept crashing on me.
This is the most minor complaint: The game is a port of some other game from some other platform. I'd like to see something original that nobody has played before.
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I noticed screen tearing during the fade-ins and outs in the demo.
That should be fixed. I wrote a special fader in asm to replace the C code.
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A run button might help.
There is one, silly. It's right next to the Select button. :P
Seriously, running has been implemented, though I wouldn't mind if it was a menu option rather than a button.
I'd like to see something original that nobody has played before.
It's all new for everyone except the handful of Turbonauts that have also played the PC game. For that select group, there's still a few all new chunks. :wink:
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C doesn't cut it for PCE. And even basic ASM knowledge really isn't enough if you're trying to push the system.
Genesis on the other hand, has a processor built for C.
Tom, I am going to make a comment that is totally off-topic, but I have a lot of curiosity about your post. Why did you say that C doesn't cut it for PCE, and Genesis does? I know that you have done lots of works for the PC Engine, and I would like to know your experiences...
The most important thing is the processor opcodes. On the 68k, the opcodes are fairly slow - but you can do alot quite a bit in a single opcode. It has a very powerful set of opcodes. And it has a ton of addressing modes too. Probably more than I've seen for any other processor. It makes for relative addressing (dynamically moving the code into a certain address range and not having to worry about hard offsets or recompiling) really easy. The 68k also has native flat memory model. There is no far or near data. A lot of C operations translation nicely into the 68k opcode set. That's a HUGE advantage.
This isn't the case with the 65x architecture. It's more like RISC in this regard. You have simple, but very fast instructions. Speed comes from optimizing for near data, removing redundant steps or combing steps that fit within the instruction set design (more so that most processors because the instruction set is so simple). The down side is, that most RISC have 32bit instructions to help it along. This oftens means reorganizing your data in certain ways to gain speed, or doing out of order execution to remove redundant steps. C just isn't made for 65x arch. Most of the time, you have a macro layer between C and the assembler - just because it's soo complex to build out for. These macros act like normal instructions, instructions that don't exist on the 65x. Which means you get very non optimized assembly built from this C.
HuC itself has a whole slew of problems that go way beyond it just being a variant of C (it's small C). HuC has a lot of missing support for far data. It's impossible to pass a far data pointer to a user function, and then to an internal lib function that uses it - in huc. That's a huge problem for design. You have to make sure you use *direct* labels for functions that support far data, which limits the flexibility of the language. C is all about pointers. Or.. make sure you include any near data first in the list (first come, first serve). But that's only 8k. HuC is probably more CD friendly because of this. Making a serious hucard project would be even worse. Because you'd have tons of far data, where as on a CD project - you can load near data from the CD for different areas/levels/etc.
I ask this because I have made a couple of things with HuC, and in fact I have been surprised by this wonderful C compiler. What things does Genesis have and PC Engine does not have, as far as C programming is related? Are you talking about things like using bidimensional arrays (they don't exist in HuC) or similar things? Or maybe you are speaking about things at a lower level?
Well, you have real C with the Genesis via GCC. HuC is Small C with some hacking for limited far data support for *some* lib functions. HuC really was made for computers that only had 64k of address space. HuC is fine, until you start to run into its limitations. Really slow static and dynamic pointer support, really slow shift function, nothing bigger than 16bit integers (16bit, 24bit and 32bit fixed point data types would be great as well), no real optimization option for the compiler, mostly restricted to near data access, only a small amount of ram/rom for user functions and main, opcodes can't land the middle of a bank boundary (this is an assembler problem). And to top it off, HuC totally ignores all the address vectors of zeropage. It treats a few as normal address regs, loading and unloading like it would any other processor. When really, it should be leaving them in memory. And finally, all internal data types for user define functions use a custom stack to access (it creates and destroys them on every function call). The 65x processor doesn't have direct support for this kind of address modes. So it uses a slow manual method everything it needs to read/write to that data type. Which probably wouldn't be so bad if the regs and bus weren't 8bit. The only way around this is to declare all data types as global and you know how much of a mess that can be. HuC has some serious limitations. HuC was never intended for *any* type of serious project. It was meant for *very* basic stuff. And as a stepping board to get people into assembly. Learn the hardware with HuC, then move onto assembly. The people who modified the original Small C compiler (it dates from 1983) have said so themselves. In my eyes, it's equivalent to BASIC for the most part (the limitations and the speed). And like BASIC, anything you can offset to inline ASM is where you get your speed back. But it begs the question, if a lot of it is going to be ASM functions - why even use C at all? Why not just fully optimize for assembly for some real speed ;)
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The demo is freakin' ANCIENT. I don't think that's even Beta 1 quality, and we've come a hell of a long way since then. Running was implemented long ago, snow was eliminated recently (low priority issue), and crash issues were related to an active callback function which has since been eliminated. Also, people using CDRs to play the game are going to have major problems due to the large amount of code and data to copy to system RAM. That's why it has to be pressed to begin with, aside from the fact that a lot of people asked for it.
As for original stuff...once MSR is released, we're going to unveil our first 100% original game, and perhaps some of the other 100% original projects we've got brewing in the background, out of the public eye. Keep in mind that MSR was merely a solo project that I started myself to get back into PCE development; it was never intended to be a full-blown production, but since it now is, well...it is what it is.
As an add-on to Tom's post...not only is HuC generally rather slow, but rather big as well. Code generation is rather generic and can be quite redundant, bloating the f*ck out of the assembly listing. There are plenty of ways around it though, and I personally have spent much of the last few years learning ways to fool the code generator into producing code that's not so large, and to get some speed boosts as well. As a result, I've been able to pull off decent platform game engines with ease that zip along quite nicely even with lots of objects on-screen. Of course, come N3 time, the game will be written in 100% assembly language; the old HuC-based game engine has already been thrown away. My own epic RPG, which is also 100% original, will be done in pure assembly as well.
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Tom, thank you very much for taking the time to write that fantastic explanation!! I think that I understood it well, and I have learnt a lot of things :clap:
I think that I can answer your last question "why even use C at all?". From my point of view... because there are people (like me) who are total boneheads as far as assembly programming is related, but we are decent C programmers. C is easy to learn for almost everybody, and assembly... is easy only for some people.
I am not able to create a game in ASM, but I am able to create a game in HuC using C (and I create it very quickly!!). You are right: these will be very basic games, but sometimes this is enough (like the "Monkey Catcher" game that I made for my little daughter). In fact, when I discovered (thanks to a very nice person from the Frozenutopia team) the option of making overlays in the CD games, I saw a huge potential that I was not using in HuC before that.
So, my opinion is that HuC is usefull indeed if you are not trying to create an "Akumajo Dracula X: Rondo of blood 2", and you have enough with creating a more basic game, and you need to do it quickly. Of course, using ASM is mandatory in a professional game like Mysterious Song :D
Thank you again for your fantastic explanation!!
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Mysterious Song is actually 98% programmed in HuC. Tom added some kickass helper functions to library.asm that weren't in there originally, so they're unique to the game and I count them as the remaining code. :) Two of our platformer games are also coded in HuC, and our third may be as well. But anything new will be done exclusively in assembly.
Here's a couple of new screenshots. Black Tiger submitted some new battlefields, so they got put into the game after a few tweaks.
(http://www.nodtveidt.net/msr106.html) (http://www.nodtveidt.net/msr107.html)
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Wow, those screenshots are amazing!! :D
Thanks for the info. It is encouraging to know that a big part of Mysterious Song is made in HuC. It is a proof that HuC is powerful indeed, and you can do lots of things with this compiler. Of course, I understand Tom's explanation too, because there will be parts of the game where optimization is mandatory, so it's necessary to use assembly there... and also to make some special effects, I guess.
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If MSR had been coded in assembly, it would likely have been a lot smaller. And actually, there are some things I would have done differently even if I were to start this from scratch. For example: the BRAM functions require a single, contiguous region of memory. MSR uses a lot of different arrays and variables. Therefore, it is necessary to put all the variables and arrays into one large array when saving, and to split up said large array when loading. That eats up a LOT of code space. Going back into the code and changing all of this would be a tremendous effort and would take at least two weeks' time in and of itself, so it's not really worth the trouble, plus it would set the beta testing back considerably. It would have been better to use a large char array for all the data from the start and implement a custom number system; would have saved a lot of code space I think. But of course, that was all done before BRAM access was even added, and by then, the code was already too far along to go back and modify. If HuC had struct support, it would have been a simple case of writing the struct to BRAM and that would be the end of it. But alas... :(
HuC is powerful, but it's knowing how to use it that's the trick. Array access, for example, is extremely slow, so arrays can be difficult to use for fast-paced action games, where arrays are normally required. What you do instead is get the pointer to the array (still slow, but only has to be done once) and use that for all references in the code. Saves a ton of time. And using globals is really a "must" because of HuC's slow stack method for function arguments; this defies "normal" logic for C coding, where globals are best used sparingly.
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Wow, those screenshots are amazing!! :D
Thanks for the info. It is encouraging to know that a big part of Mysterious Song is made in HuC. It is a proof that HuC is powerful indeed, and you can do lots of things with this compiler. Of course, I understand Tom's explanation too, because there will be parts of the game where optimization is mandatory, so it's necessary to use assembly there... and also to make some special effects, I guess.
Despite the some of the big draw backs to huc, I actually like writing asm routines and other optimizations for it. If you need some help with something as such, let me know ;)
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Anyone else notice that the female character has the most masculine jawline?
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My wife isn't too partial to those profile pics...she says that they look like they're staring you down, as if to say "whatcha gonna do, huh? HUH?". I don't like her pic either, honestly...
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My wife isn't too partial to those profile pics...she says that they look like they're staring you down, as if to say "whatcha gonna do, huh? HUH?". I don't like her pic either, honestly...
There ya go, I've made everyone look a little less threatening. There is no charge. :D
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6661/msr107a.html)
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There ya go, I've made everyone look a little less threatening. There is no charge. :D
Frickin' awesome! Tiger kinda looks like the bastard child of Pennywise and Ronald McDonald. :lol:
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Attacking that fairy almost seems cruel now. Perhaps they should tell jokes and make it laugh itself to death.
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Anyone else notice that the female character has the most masculine jawline?
you're new at this Japanese RPG thing, aren't you? :wink:
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Anyone else notice that the female character has the most masculine jawline?
you're new at this Japanese RPG thing, aren't you? :wink:
:-s :-s Seems you are... :P
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Just a quick update here...MSR's EX Game development has been in full swing lately, and I've gotta say...it will drive the ordinary player to the brink of insanity. It will take someone with an iron will to complete it. Fans of Rogue should enjoy it though. :D
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. Fans of Rogue should enjoy it though. :D
score.
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This is pure genius:
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6661/msr107a.html)
I suggest these updated images be unlockable for the EX quest.
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Will there be a Super EX + alpha ' version?
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Will there be a Super EX + alpha ' version?
I thought you're supposed to write out the "+" as a word; super EX 'plus alpha.
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One thing I have observed from this project is that it has really pushed the limits of HuC's capabilities, and has shown that HuC's code generation is less than optimal. Yeah, it's certainly possible to do a big game with HuC, and this project proves it. But it also proves that stuff like this is better suited to assembly. Memory consumption is a constant battle as you have to find new ways to optimize for smaller code generation.
As of right now, Beta 3 of the game, the last major beta version before the Release Candidates, is being prepared for release right now. The release will come within the next hour or so.
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yeah, the function call overhead alone that HuC generates is enough to make you wanna go ASM-fu on it
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Sure does. :) As it is, I've gotta rewrite a major portion of the text displayer to cut back on memory consumption. It's WAY too greedy. Of course, that means writing new utilities...but I'm used to that already. :)
Beta 3 was released a little while ago, so we're now on the home stretch. :D
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so we're now on the home stretch. :D
careful , youre going to jinx it.
>_<
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Can't jinx it any more than I already have. :lol:
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I've implemented the new text display function, and even though all the code hasn't been converted yet, it's already down 8KB in size. That's a huge reduction in code size, and it can only continue to go down further.
EDIT: Now down 16KB! :dance:
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Wanna know what really sucks about Mysterious Song?
.
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That it hasn't been released yet. :lol:
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Hehe. :D Well, we're working on that now. :D The code for the trouble town has been reduced by 24KB by switching all of the English dialogue over to the new routine. I will next do the same thing for the Spanish script, which is likely to drop it another 24KB in size. By going around and using this technique on all of the areas of the game with heavy text, the overall size of the game will be greatly reduced, making load times smaller and reducing the possibility of read errors on old hardware.
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Which also means more room for niceties(is that a word), like clouds n' stuff I'd assume.........but only if we can still release the game on time!
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The world map doesn't have heavy text in it so utilizing it there might be fruitless and might even have the opposite effect...
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doh #-o
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Well, I have been away :P hehe
I don't really want to dredge up things that (as of Page 5 in this thread) have been handled. But, I only took a small offense to what was said, thats mainly because I worked hard on ALOT of the tiles in this game.
I began work on this game in 2005 after it was made apparent the game was gonna need a complete graphical overhaul. The castle tiles were the first set I did. What I like about this set? I like the texture of the floor and the walls look pretty good. As for a 10th grader being able to do better.... I had done exactly Zero tile work, graphic design, pixel art, ANY computer art before those tiles. This isn't a group of professional game designers here you are talking about, we aren't ex-gamedesigners, and for the most part we aren't technical wizards (as far as I know.... :D ) this isn't a group of people who can even communicate there ideas in an instant, I have never met the fine people I work with never heard there voices. We are a group of people (scattered around planet) who love games, who have a great deal of passion about our particular parts in these projects, we are people who LOVE this system. We want to make games, create something outside of ourselves, and allow other people who love this system to continue to play it for years to come....
Im glad to hear everyones positive feedback. Thanks for caring enough to be honest. I hope you all enjoy the final product, I know I will.
I look forward to everyone seeing our upcoming titles :P
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Well, I have been away :P hehe
Hey. Good to hear from you. :)
Hope all is well.
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ThOldRover:
"the BRAM functions require a single, contiguous region of memory. MSR uses a lot of different arrays and variables. Therefore, it is necessary to put all the variables and arrays into one large array when saving..."
Since HuC almost requires everything to be global (for speed), the copy then write isn't really necessary; just list everything you want to save in order, get the address of the first thing and the number of bytes needed, and write from there. Same thing for loading.
HuC assigns variable addresses in the order they are declared, so if two things follow each other in the code, they follow each other in memory. Makes block writes like that a lot easier (but watch out if you cross a page boundary.)
Personally, I use HuC to get a working (though slow) prototype running, and then use the overscan trick to see what needs optimizing. Then I go assemblerize the parts that take a huge amount of time. Since I have a working version of the C code to go from, I can swap the assembler stuff in and out to make sure it's working right. And, if I need to, I can refer to how HuC generated the assembler, just to make sure.
It's a bit more work than writing it all in assembler, but I tend to think in C. And for the most part I only have to optimize a few routines to get the speed I want.
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I already tried that; it failed to work. I had that idea as well. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The BRAM functions are apparently too smart for it.
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That's funny. They work okay for me. Have test code showing it working, if you would like to see.
Did you remember to put the id bytes at the beginning of the name? That got me when I started writing it.
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Hi,
I noticed you were looking for someone to translate Mysterious Song into french. Has Kaminari found time to do the translation ?
If it's not the case and you still need someone, I guess I could help with the translation. I think I'm pretty fluent in english (more than 10 years of study and reading/writing english is necessary at work to complete my job). French is my mother tongue.
Anyway, if you still need help for the french translation, feel free to contact me.
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That's funny. They work okay for me. Have test code showing it working, if you would like to see.
Did you remember to put the id bytes at the beginning of the name? That got me when I started writing it.
Yes, of course I put the id bytes; that's a fundamental detail of doing bram. :) Remember, MSR already has bram functions, so that was not an issue at all.
Here's the test program I used to check it out:
#include "huc.h"
#define BRAM_FILE "TESTFORWOS"
char filename[13];
char test0;
int test1, test2;
char test3, test4;
int test5,test6;
char test7;
int test8,test9;
main()
{
load_default_font();
put_string("BACKUP RAM CONTIGUITY TEST",0,2);
filename[0] = 0;
filename[1] = 0;
filename[12] = 0;
strcpy(&filename[2], BRAM_FILE);
if(bm_exist(filename) == 0) bm_create(filename,16);
test0 = 240;
test1 = 1999;
test2 = 9467;
test3 = 45;
test4 = 194;
test5 = 90;
test6 = 9000;
test7 = 18;
test8 = 32762;
test9 = 12345;
put_number(test0,5,0,8);
put_number(test1,5,0,9);
put_number(test2,5,0,10);
put_number(test3,5,0,11);
put_number(test4,5,0,12);
put_number(test5,5,0,13);
put_number(test6,5,0,14);
put_number(test7,5,0,15);
put_number(test8,5,0,16);
put_number(test9,5,0,17);
bm_write(test0,filename,0,16);
put_string("WROTE 16 BYTES",0,4); put_number(bm_errno(),4,16,4);
test0 = 0;
test1 = 0;
test2 = 0;
test3 = 0;
test4 = 0;
test5 = 0;
test6 = 0;
test7 = 0;
test8 = 0;
test9 = 0;
bm_read(test0,filename,0,16);
put_string("READ 16 BYTES",0,5); put_number(bm_errno(),4,16,5);
put_string("DUMPING BUFFER TO SCREEN:",0,6);
put_string("ORIGINAL BRAM",0,7);
put_number(test0,5,10,8);
put_number(test1,5,10,9);
put_number(test2,5,10,10);
put_number(test3,5,10,11);
put_number(test4,5,10,12);
put_number(test5,5,10,13);
put_number(test6,5,10,14);
put_number(test7,5,10,15);
put_number(test8,5,10,16);
put_number(test9,5,10,17);
}Did this both as a pce rom image and as a scd iso. Didn't work as either. I'd be interested in seeing your implementation though; perhaps I've overlooked a detail or two.
Arm: I've still not heard from him since he said that he'd do it. We went through a few years of him saying "yep I'll do it this weekend" or something along those lines, and nothing ever got done. I don't deal well with people who don't communicate with me. At the very least he could have told me "I'm not gonna do it because this game will never be finished" but instead, he kept us hanging for years in vain. That severely pisses me off. If he didn't wanna do it, all he had to do was tell me. And now that the deadline is on top of us, I simply don't have the time to wait for the translation. It takes a long time to insert new text into the game, and if I have to wait any longer, it's simply not gonna be added. So unless I hear from him in the next 48 hours with SOMETHING, I'm cutting out the plan to add a French translation. It needed to be done 2 years ago.
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Sorry to hear that. I haven't talked with Kaminari, so I didn't know the situation. I was just proposing to help in case you were looking for someone as I remembered your last message about the translation.
You know, I'm a good translator too. I can translate rather quickly, so if the script is not too long, I guess it would take a couple of days.
That's too bad. Anyway, you can contact me if you change your mind. Good luck :)
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"char test0;
....
bm_write(test0,filename,0,16);"
No, bm_read and bm_write take pointers as the first arguement (ie, addresses).
Try bm_write( &test0, filename, 0, 16 );
and bm_read( &test0, filename, 0, 16 );
That's pretty close to what I used as a test, btw.
I dumped the return values, too, and they came out as 32; I didn't bother to see if that
was an error code or not, but since I got the data back (into different variables) I didn't
worry about it.
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Hey, that actually worked. Hrm...perhaps I could reorganize the variables in the source and do this with a single read and write. That would make things much easier, and would cut out some code space too.
The fact that HuC didn't throw an error bothers me though. It's pretty lax about errors.
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"Huc...pretty lax about errors". What an understatement!
Here's hoping you get a little extra data / code space, and .that it runs faster. Progams in Huc can use all the help they can get :-)
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Progams in Huc can use all the help they can get :-)
You're not kidding there. :)
I tested it out using variables in globals.h and it still worked, so this is a good thing. Now I can simply rearrange the variables and use a single instruction. It won't run any faster, but it will certainly cut out about 8KB of code space, and allow for more save locations.
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TOR, I pmed you to say I would do this translation if Kaminari didn't show up. I haven't heard from you since then and now it's too late as I've been really busy lately. So the French Translation could have been done by now.
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I suppose that the fact that you didn't give me an answer implies you don't want my help. That's fine.
By the way, you should empty your mail box. I tried to contact you via email several times and received a message stating it was full. I also sent you a PM 2 days ago. :)
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There are many PC Engine owner in France, Belgium and Switzerland.
It will be very a shame to forget them.
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TOR, I pmed you to say I would do this translation if Kaminari didn't show up. I haven't heard from you since then and now it's too late as I've been really busy lately. So the French Translation could have been done by now.
I expected him to do it; he stated he would, and you said that he was probably better for the job than you. But it seems he's bailed on us...again. Arm says he'll do it though, so no worries.
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The Old Rover, I have sent you a PM.
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SH*T, does this mean that I don't have time to finish the Ukranian translation?
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SH*T, does this mean that I don't have time to finish the Ukranian translation?
Fret not, the Klingon translation continues apace.