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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Tatsujin on March 17, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
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Just assuming the PCE never got a CD-ROM add-on and used hucards till end of its days, would it still be so much kick ass? especially be able to kicking MD and SFC asses?
you decide, you vote!
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A lot of the best games are hu, so sure!
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If they kept increasing the storage capacity, without a doubt. Just look at SFII' for example.
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I'm going to go with option 1. If NEC didn't go the cd route, they would have just gone further with the hucard. Who knows, the may have put some sort of FX chip on them. haha.
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The CD add on is what made the pc engine awesome, as well as distinct from its main competition.....with out the CD add on would we have gotten a game like winds of thunder, a game with more variety in two of its level than most 16bit shmups have in the entire game, or Rondo of blood, who's developers truly utilized the CD to its fullest, we know what happened to a 16 mbit (which is huge for rather short, sidescrolling 16bit action game) cartridge game, would the pc engine have been able to do justice to the Neogeo ports, with out a CD add on.etc
On the flip side, the NEC machine would have gotten more action games and wouldn't have become known as the girl game system, in Japan, if it had stuck with the hucard.
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Considering that the CD doesn't really add any extra capabilities, it'd still kick ass without the CD-ROM but slightly less so, since you'd be losing all the lovely red book tunes and they'd have to dial things back a notch or two to conserve space.
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The CD-ROM add-on is definitely what set the system apart from its peers. I mean, is there really a HuCard game that truly couldn't have been done on other systems? Taking SF2 for example, which I think about is the pinnacle of HuCard games, both the Genny and the SNES had comparable efforts.
On the other hand, the first time I heard the Ys soundtracks -- I KNEW that couldn't be done on any other contemporary system during those times.
Yeah, sure, there still would be good HuCard games, but I really don't think it's still have the "hardcore" following it does today without the CD-ROM system.
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I said no way, because I suspect that if it didn't get a CDROM it woulda been dropped like a rock about 3-4 years earlier in favor of a rushed PC-FX equivalent attempt at competing with SEGA-CD... bunch of the awesome hueys wouldn't have been released and instead would have been gimped into CD releases for the new system. 'course, I just got done watchin' back to the future with my kidlets, so I'm stuck in a time warp right now.
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If there was no CD addon, the SupergRafx would have been more successful, as it would have probably had all that stuff, and thus had more to offer.
as it stands, the PCE would have been fine without a CD drive.
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It's a good poser for sure. Had the PCE never aspired to have the CD ROM, were it not the first console to attempt that, it would definitely have needed to up its game to compete with its rivals, who generally were developing more hi spec hardware (though nowhere near as good LOL!). It's known that the Supergrafx bombed due to a mismatch between what was only a slightly better PCE, and customer expectations from the 16 Bit generation. And it's clear that from the very beginning of the NEC project, the CDROM was on the cards. What NEC would have needed to do, without the CDROM, is develop something akin to the Supergrafx but with yet more processing power. Something above a Megadrive but not quite at N64 level.
As it was the CDROM held the PCE in very good shape despite a fairly low share of the global market.
Generally the extra RAM etc that made some CDROM games more impressive than their HuCrad forebaerers (Spriggan, Sylphia, and of course Sapphire) might have been , as was suggested above, incorporated as a hardware or JuCard add-on (SFII). The PCE was always designed with peripherals and expandability (check that huge ext bus!) in mind, so who knows what sort of add-ons could have been developed? As it was, the CDROM was shrewd. It provided the earliest console foray into CD sound, extra memory and that progressive leap into new technology, which always inspires people.
The HuCard, both aesthetically and in performance terms, was an incredible medium though, and remains in my view the ultimate gaming medium, taking cost, size, reliability, looks, performance etc into account.
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What NEC would have needed to do, without the CDROM, is develop something akin to the Supergrafx but with yet more processing power. Something above a Megadrive but not quite at N64 level.
Thats a pretty big gap, from 16bit to 64bit.
To add to what Ive already said, we wouldn't have gotten the most detailed BGs in a 16bit game, sure the game has to load every five to twenty foot steps your character takes, we also would not have gotten all the god awful voice acting.
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If you take the Famicom as example, look at all the hardware upgrades the games received via cart.
The PCE has audio input via the cart slot, so sound upgrades are possible. The cart interface it self supports ram on the hucard (populous does just this), so ram wouldn't be an issue. There's nothing to say they couldn't have included other smaller chip upgrades and mappers (like SF2).
I personally think that if the PCE didn't go the way of the CDROM, it would have went the way of the Famicom. The PCE was already extremely popular in japan during early hucard days. Why wouldn't they expand on that like Nintendo did? My speculation is that they would just kept expanding on the cart side (like they kept expanding the CD rom setup too).
There are a number of simple but cool hardware tricks you can do on the cart side to help boost performance too (as well as ease of programming). Also, if the CD addon was never invented - you could have up to 15.5megabit carts before you start adding in mappers.
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The PCE would still have done well, even without the CD-ROM, because we would have gotten Legendary Axe III.
'nuff said.
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Probably not. The CDROM2 might not be what make the system great, but it was what made the system unique and kept it alive for so long in a market place with Nintendo. Without the CDROM2 the PCE would have died much sooner since while in theory they could have produced Neo Geo sized HuCards with Gate of Thunder the Tengai Makyo and Dracula X on then...the reality is that there is no f*cking way in hell they would have actually done that. Therefore, it probably would have been the same stream of 8-bit-ish platformers and voice-less RPGs going against Final Fantasy, Yoshi's Island, etc.
While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day (just as the people on the CDi or Jaguar forums would say that Burn Cycle or Trever McFur hold their own against their competition of the day) the reality is that even a mediocre Mickey Mouse title on Genesis or SNES is lightyears beyond any TG-16 platformer in the eyes of most people. Therefore, 1991 or 1992 would have been about the end of real PCE development.
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While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day
I actually believe that. Not because I think that Bonk's Revenge is so great, I've just never liked the 2D Mario games much (with the exception of Yoshi's Island). Call me a lunatic, but there it is.
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I actually believe that. Not because I think that Bonk's Revenge is so great, I've just never liked the 2D Mario games much (with the exception of Yoshi's Island). Call me a lunatic, but there it is.
lol, for me it's just vice versa. liked all the 2D marios, except the weak, slow & quite boring yoshi's island.
sure, super mario world is the best mario ever made and probably one of the most fun giving 2D platformer in existence.
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While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day (just as the people on the CDi or Jaguar forums would say that Burn Cycle or Trever McFur hold their own against their competition of the day) the reality is that even a mediocre Mickey Mouse title on Genesis or SNES is lightyears beyond any TG-16 platformer in the eyes of most people. Therefore, 1991 or 1992 would have been about the end of real PCE development.
Well, I prefer the ORIGINAL Bonk's Adventure to any of the NES Mario games, and like the other 2 more than super mario world.
Not because they are technically superior, since they sure aren't. I just think they are more fun. I just like the theme more (dinosaurs and tropics!), and the music more.
If there was a caveman dinosaur Mario game for SN....
oh wait, Super Bonk.
I like that more than Super Mario World too.
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Probably not. The CDROM2 might not be what make the system great, but it was what made the system unique and kept it alive for so long in a market place with Nintendo. Without the CDROM2 the PCE would have died much sooner since while in theory they could have produced Neo Geo sized HuCards with Gate of Thunder the Tengai Makyo and Dracula X on then...the reality is that there is no f*cking way in hell they would have actually done that. Therefore, it probably would have been the same stream of 8-bit-ish platformers and voice-less RPGs going against Final Fantasy, Yoshi's Island, etc.
While the fanboys here would argue that Bonk's Revenge is better that Super Mario World all day (just as the people on the CDi or Jaguar forums would say that Burn Cycle or Trever McFur hold their own against their competition of the day) the reality is that even a mediocre Mickey Mouse title on Genesis or SNES is lightyears beyond any TG-16 platformer in the eyes of most people. Therefore, 1991 or 1992 would have been about the end of real PCE development.
There's quite a few wholes in your logic. 1) The PC-Engine was very popular before the CD addon became the dominate format. If they had never brought out the CD addon, of course there would be larger hucards, mappers, addon chips. The FC, which came before the PCE did just this, and the SNES that came out AFTER the PCE, did just this as well. So why wouldn't the PCE? Gate of Thunder (minus the opening/ending cinemas) could fit on a 12megabit cart. DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card. The popularity was already there to support it, I don't see why it wouldn't have happened. Regardless of Bonk 2 VS any other platformer and what's "lightyears beyond", the Japanese loved the PCE. First and foremost, that's the biggest negating factor in your logic. There are plenty of just average games on the PCE that the Japanese loved, and on CD format too. So if the same games weren't on CD format, so how the Japanese would fail to like them just as much? Going by your logic, why wasn't the MegaCD the success it was supposed to be?
I understand the uniqueness, charm, and benefits that the CD format brings to the PCE, but to think there would be this sharp drop off in popularity because of its absence - is kind of.. absurd, really.
When the Duo was released, it killed all expansion possibilities via that back plane. That include additional video upgrades (more BG layers/sprites), upgraded sound, additional processor, a new cart slot/format (for carts VS cards). Any one of those possibilities could have happened if the CD rom attachment hadn't been released. Not only "could" they have, given the history of the popular games system before and after, it "would" have in any one of those categories.
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I think they would of pushed the cards more, made em bigger(memory) and it would of been cheaper cause ya didnt have to buy a cd system. I dunno lol Im just a boy from jersey
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DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card.
are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.
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There's quite a few wholes in your logic. 1) The PC-Engine was very popular before the CD addon became the dominate format. If they had never brought out the CD addon, of course there would be larger hucards, mappers, addon chips. The FC, which came before the PCE did just this, and the SNES that came out AFTER the PCE, did just this as well. So why wouldn't the PCE? Gate of Thunder (minus the opening/ending cinemas) could fit on a 12megabit cart. DraculaX, most likely 16-18megabit card. The popularity was already there to support it, I don't see why it wouldn't have happened.
I didn't think there were many holes in what zeta said, if any at all. Seems sound to me.
There would have probably been a point where the PSG would have been sub-par compared to the pretty high quality stuff coming out of the SNES. and the Sega genesis as well. The FM is no laughing matter! Throw in the Sega CD, and that would nail the sonic-coffin shut. redbook gave the games one hell of an edge as far as music goes on any of these systems. It is one of the reasons RPGs on PCE CD are such great games. The audio is astonishing.
It would have been akin to the competition that occured after Amiga launched w/ Paula blasting out high quality sampled music as opposed to the other computers doing PSG stuff still.... fanboying yourself to one computer or not, there is no denying that having 4 channels of sampled audio gives you a definitive edge if you are on an Amiga.
and I think the problem with tons of mappers/addons, large hucards, is the cost would have gone up significantly for games. To make this worth it, some kind of upgraded sound module would have been a must. The CD-ROM w/ redbook gave it a definite edge along with save ram, and the seemingly infinite storage space of a CD vs what other systems had to try to stuff onto cartridges. Those later, larger SNES games weren't cheap. PCE had to make a ubercard to do Street Fighter 2, which was an EARLY SNES title. Sure if you look back now you can say "well you could add this, and that to the card", but lets face it, none of that crap was cheap! Chrono Trigger was expensive as hell.
and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out. Not so great in comparison. :)
Like I said before, if the CDROM never came out for PCE, I think the SuperGrafx would have been a whole different story. It would have probably been what it is already, with far more to it since there would be way more development time for it. It may have turned into the best thing since indoor plumbing instead of a 5 game letdown.
Regardless of Bonk 2 VS any other platformer and what's "lightyears beyond", the Japanese loved the PCE. First and foremost, that's the biggest negating factor in your logic. There are plenty of just average games on the PCE that the Japanese loved, and on CD format too. So if the same games weren't on CD format, so how the Japanese would fail to like them just as much? Going by your logic, why wasn't the MegaCD the success it was supposed to be?
PCE did the smart thing with the CD games and benefited from its basic hardware being better suited for video. Nice high color stuff...The games focused on being what was good and expected at the time, rather than trying to pretend it was a PC platform with corny FMV games. Alot of PCE CD games are comparable to Amiga games. the genesis has its obvious limits... look at all the laughable FMV games... as far as Sega CD goes, if they had focused more on doing games in the same manner the PCE CD games were done in, things would have faired better for it. Android Assault is proof that Sega CD could have done plenty of badass arcade shooters.
I understand the uniqueness, charm, and benefits that the CD format brings to the PCE, but to think there would be this sharp drop off in popularity because of its absence - is kind of.. absurd, really.
Absurd? #-o Says you. Unless you have a way to dive into an alternate past where the CDROM never existed, its kind of off balance to say someones speculations are downright absurd.
Given the time frame, and the "bit wars" of the era, its entirely possible that popularity would wane. Much like how most systems decline in popularity when a newer, shinier thing comes around.
Imagine if PCE had no CD games. then you saw Cosmic Fantasy and Lunar on Sega CD. Or Lords of Thunder on Sega CD w/ its ball-thumping soundtrack. You telling me you wouldn't be like DAMN, and want some of that CD rom action?
When the Duo was released, it killed all expansion possibilities via that back plane. That include additional video upgrades (more BG layers/sprites), upgraded sound, additional processor, a new cart slot/format (for carts VS cards). Any one of those possibilities could have happened if the CD rom attachment hadn't been released. Not only "could" they have, given the history of the popular games system before and after, it "would" have in any one of those categories.
I dunno, some consoles have a history of never getting the things for the expansion ports. Its possible the back plane would have gone un-touched, aside from the Booster, and then eventually development would have morphed into the supergrafx as a more worthy device than it turned out to be..
Rather than add tumor like addons to an existing console, Sega proved its better to just move on. otherwise what you have on your hands is a bunch of crap clicked on all over the place, and jokes for years to come.
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are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.
I remember someone who did a castlevania fighting game hack, gave the size of Rondo at 120mb, over half of which are cutscenes with voice samples, this doesn't include any of the music of course, which is streamed from the CD...DraculaX(snes) is 16mb, that includes the music and a couple of cutscenes with out voice. In the end, 16mb, proved to be insufficient.
for comparison of cart sizes:
Super Castlevania IV- 8mb
Bloodlines- 8mb
Legendary Axe 2- 2mb
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I didn't think there were many holes in what zeta said, if any at all. Seems sound to me.
This - coming from the guy that thought PC-Genjin sounding like PC-Engine was just a coincidence, even when he was given plenty of examples as to why it was more than just that. :wink:
There would have probably been a point where the PSG would have been sub-par compared to the pretty high quality stuff coming out of the SNES. and the Sega genesis as well. The FM is no laughing matter! Throw in the Sega CD, and that would nail the sonic-coffin shut. redbook gave the games one hell of an edge as far as music goes on any of these systems. It is one of the reasons RPGs on PCE CD are such great games. The audio is astonishing.
Yes, CD audio is fantastic for RPG and other games. But just take a look at the SFC in Japan. I'd venture to say it has MORE RPGs and more high production value RPGs too. There's no CDDA there, and yet the system was extremely popular. Where were the cinemas and voice acting? No where. And yet the system was extremely popular. And on the other side of the coin, FM setup being superior to the WSG setup of the PCE - yet the MD was a distant third even with it's superior sound to "PSG". And finally the FC, that competed with the PCE and MD - had plenty of audio upgrades via Famicom carts ranging from simple 1 or 2 more channels to PCE like upgrades (even FM chip). Given all that said, do you fail to realize that the "PSG" as you call it wouldn't have been upgraded via cart (or back plane addon)? Hell, even the SMS games had dual options for PSG or FM music (which ever was detected). There's no evidence that NEC/Hudson wouldn't have upgraded the sound if the CD addon never existed. I think on the contrary, by competitive example - they would have.
It would have been akin to the competition that occured after Amiga launched w/ Paula blasting out high quality sampled music as opposed to the other computers doing PSG stuff still.... fanboying yourself to one computer or not, there is no denying that having 4 channels of sampled audio gives you a definitive edge if you are on an Amiga.
That's great and all, but the PCE isn't a PC and wasn't dominated by EU politics. I fail to see any relevance that has on the PCE, Japan, and console tech in Japan.
and I think the problem with tons of mappers/addons, large hucards, is the cost would have gone up significantly for games. To make this worth it, some kind of upgraded sound module would have been a must. The CD-ROM w/ redbook gave it a definite edge along with save ram, and the seemingly infinite storage space of a CD vs what other systems had to try to stuff onto cartridges. Those later, larger SNES games weren't cheap. PCE had to make a ubercard to do Street Fighter 2, which was an EARLY SNES title. Sure if you look back now you can say "well you could add this, and that to the card", but lets face it, none of that crap was cheap! Chrono Trigger was expensive as hell.
If you're talking PCE, then it's SFC. And those "expensive" SFC carts were selling pretty damn good. And do you know how much a mapper costs? Even simple audio upgrades? Very cheap, especially if they become the norm. Why else do you think Nintendo of Japan used the hell out of them? The cost of rom was cheaper by the time SFC was into it's first year, than when the PCE was first released. Mappers are cheap to make (I made one out of a few cheap TTL chips). Not the mention NEC had its OWN fabrication plant - they MADE ram and rom ICs.
and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out. Not so great in comparison. :)
You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.
Like I said before, if the CDROM never came out for PCE, I think the SuperGrafx would have been a whole different story. It would have probably been what it is already, with far more to it since there would be way more development time for it. It may have turned into the best thing since indoor plumbing instead of a 5 game letdown.
You think the SGX failed because of the CDROM addon!? That's ridiculous. There was a CD addon for the SGX. No developer ever made such a game or even a bi-compatible game. Second, 5 games. 5 WHOLE games. If the system had something like 50-100 games, maybe you'd have a point. But 5 games? Yeah, the CD addon wasn't responsible for the SGX only having 5 games.
PCE did the smart thing with the CD games and benefited from its basic hardware being better suited for video. Nice high color stuff...The games focused on being what was good and expected at the time, rather than trying to pretend it was a PC platform with corny FMV games. Alot of PCE CD games are comparable to Amiga games. the genesis has its obvious limits... look at all the laughable FMV games... as far as Sega CD goes, if they had focused more on doing games in the same manner the PCE CD games were done in, things would have faired better for it. Android Assault is proof that Sega CD could have done plenty of badass arcade shooters.
Again, you're mixing Japanese game system with an American system. The MegaCD had much more than just FMV games, and still did poorly. Even had one of the top famous RPGs - Lunar series. The MegaCD in Japan wasn't trying to be a PC. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. And as far as PCE having "nice high color stuff"? Knowing the extremely large subpalette systems for sprites/tiles, most games were modest with their color counts (CD or hucard).
Absurd? #-o Says you. Unless you have a way to dive into an alternate past where the CDROM never existed, its kind of off balance to say someones speculations are downright absurd.
So you don't think there can be absurd speculation!? How about I say the PC-Engine would have had mini candy canes inside every game box/purchase if the CD addon didn't exist? Speculation can be absurd. When speculating, you still have to apply logic, common sense, past history, near history, and related events. And since this is about the PCE, all has to be in the context of Japan (not the US or other countries) and consoles (not computers).
Given the time frame, and the "bit wars" of the era, its entirely possible that popularity would wane. Much like how most systems decline in popularity when a newer, shinier thing comes around.
Need I remind you the Famicom took on the SMS (which had better graphics and better sound with the FM module), the Megadrive, and even competed with the PCE. Yet it was inferior to all systems, be it minor to major in differences. The MegaCD was technically better than the Megadrive. It was newer and shinier and still never even sold 1:1 (or even 1/8) to the MD fan base.
I dunno, some consoles have a history of never getting the things for the expansion ports. Its possible the back plane would have gone un-touched, aside from the Booster, and then eventually development would have morphed into the supergrafx as a more worthy device than it turned out to be..
Rather than add tumor like addons to an existing console, Sega proved its better to just move on. otherwise what you have on your hands is a bunch of crap clicked on all over the place, and jokes for years to come.
Tumor like addons? The CD unit itself was a tumor like addon. The system card 3.0 as an "addon". The AC was an addon. The six button controller, etc. And given Sega's history, I don't see how they proved anything about moving on. They had the CD addon and the 32x. As far as "external" addons, SFC would have proved the rule. But technically, they had a lot of built in cart addons. Pick your poison.
Fact: PC-Engine had the most expansion port of any console. It's incredible in the amount of accessibility on that back plane. They could have easily made an SGX style addon instead of a separate system (and then later made an all in one, like the Duo was). To think they went to such lengths to create that impressive back bus without any such plans for serious addon.. is well, ignorant. Given that this was NEC's first system into market, I don't think they expected the base system to live as long as it did. Nor did they think CD format was going to be as popular as it became when the first released it in '88. And like I said before, by releasing the all in one Duo - the solidified any future possible upgrades on that back bus port. The PCE's specs were pretty much set in stone by that point (with the SGX proving that addition sprites and BG layers didn't make a difference to the fanbase).
The PC-Engine had a popular/pretty strong following. Add that with number of clean/expansive hardware upgrade options that other systems couldn't really to match - it could have went into a number of different directions. We just happen to end up with the ones that were made because of choices by NEC, not necessarily hardware limitations. I think it's foolish and ignorant to look at the base PCE setup that was originally release, and think that's what they would have stuck with though out the system's life if the CD addon did exist. I mean, they had the balls to make the CD addon for the PCE to begin with. 1988, that was pretty hot shit. You think they wouldn't have done something else on that scale if it didn't come out?
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are you really sure about what you're saying here? we all know of how a cart version (on the SFC) would have looked like and how many of the detail where missed or not even realized. and that cart even topped a 18Mbit card in available space.
I remember someone who did a castlevania fighting game hack, gave the size of Rondo at 120mb, over half of which are cutscenes with voice samples, this doesn't include any of the music of course, which is streamed from the CD...DraculaX(snes) is 16mb, that includes the music and a couple of cutscenes with out voice. In the end, 16mb, proved to be insufficient.
for comparison of cart sizes:
Super Castlevania IV- 8mb
Bloodlines- 8mb
Legendary Axe 2- 2mb
The ISO track is only 20megabytes and there is a TON of extra/unused junk between the actual data. But minus the cinemas, each stage is about 192k. That includes redundant tiles and sprites though. I'd say after removal of redundant data, and compression applied - you'd be close to the 18megabit size. Since the SFC version isn't an exact port, you can't know for sure more or less how much the BG detail/tiles took up in comparison. There are also other factors you don't know about on the SFC, like what kinda of compression system they used, how much the sample ram took up for each track (sample based synth), etc.
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and like Tatsujin said, look how Dracula X on SNES turned out. Not so great in comparison. :)
You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.
I really won't question your knowledge about the systems capability, which is huge and which I deeply respect. but for me, it is very hard to believe, that the graphics of dracula x would have been possible to fit on a single hucard of only 20Mbits. there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games, which counting a much higher numbers of Mbits.
and that's what makes this game so special and different to SFC and other counterparts.
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This - coming from the guy that thought PC-Genjin sounding like PC-Engine was just a coincidence, even when he was given plenty of examples as to why it was more than just that. :wink:
Hey that’s cool. Go read that thread again and really process it this time, and while you're at it, leave it there, as it has no relevancy. Would you like to discuss MML while we are at it? ^_^. Anyone who thinks scholarly effort was put into that clever title is a goon. The words rhyme, ideas flowed, this is the result. :roll: No one gave examples of why it was more than a coincidence that the two words rhyme and one could become a sweet cartoon mascot/character for years to come..
Yes, CD audio is fantastic for RPG and other games. But just take a look at the SFC in Japan. I'd venture to say it has MORE RPGs and more high production value RPGs too. There's no CDDA there, and yet the system was extremely popular. Where were the cinemas and voice acting? No where. And yet the system was extremely popular. And on the other side of the coin, FM setup being superior to the WSG setup of the PCE - yet the MD was a distant third even with it's superior sound to "PSG". And finally the FC, that competed with the PCE and MD - had plenty of audio upgrades via Famicom carts ranging from simple 1 or 2 more channels to PCE like upgrades (even FM chip). Given all that said, do you fail to realize that the "PSG" as you call it wouldn't have been upgraded via cart (or back plane addon)? Hell, even the SMS games had dual options for PSG or FM music (which ever was detected). There's no evidence that NEC/Hudson wouldn't have upgraded the sound if the CD addon never existed. I think on the contrary, by competitive example - they would have.
You can stop wrapping quotes around PSG and acting like it’s not correct and that calling it WSG separates you from the pack.. It’s called that (PSG) in the official documentations and in Develo. What they say goes and is correct, despite how you may feel about it. WSG works too, cool, I diggit. Acting like PSG is incorrect because you say so isn’t. I do not dig that.
You missed the point. SFC has very high quality audio WITHOUT requiring CD audio. That is why the PCE having a CD addon with redbook gave it a definite edge. Redbook + cdrom storage space! They would have needed a pretty beefy addon sound expansion to compete with the changing times. Some SFC games have soundtracks that sound like they’re redbook. It’s stock hardware outclasses the PCEs stock hardware. Granted, this didn’t always result in the SFC game having the better turnout of the two…. (see comparison thread!)
Without the CD-Audio, a very tricked out sound module of some variety would have been a must. Something with nice sampling capabilities, possibly FM. Something to really give it a new sonic depth.
That's great and all, but the PCE isn't a PC and wasn't dominated by EU politics. I fail to see any relevance that has on the PCE, Japan, and console tech in Japan.
Do you know what the phrasing “akin to” means? It didn’t seem very complex. The better audio technology of the [SFC/Redbook vs. console PSG] is much like the [Paula quality audio vs. other computer PSG’s.] You have to adapt to the current technology to compete well.
Also, we aren't talking strictly EU here. You know Amiga exists right here in your home country? So does that Atari stuff.
If you're talking PCE, then it's SFC.
Hoooboy, more semantics (note: not schematics). Yay.
And those "expensive" SFC carts were selling pretty damn good. And do you know how much a mapper costs? Even simple audio upgrades? Very cheap, especially if they become the norm. Why else do you think Nintendo of Japan used the hell out of them? The cost of rom was cheaper by the time SFC was into it's first year, than when the PCE was first released. Mappers are cheap to make (I made one out of a few cheap TTL chips). Not the mention NEC had its OWN fabrication plant - they MADE ram and rom ICs.
Adding more things to the card will only increase the cost of said card to the end user. It doesn’t really matter who’s got what plant, and who’s doing what. More stuff = more $$ and more time. They may be “cheap” depending how you look at it, but they certainly aren’t free. There are business sides to these things that in all honesty, none of us can comment on. I am sure there are many considerations that need to be taken into account besides “oh its cheap and easy to get these things”. CD’s had a large storage size and always cost the same. Once the cdrom hardware was in place, the sky was the limit. Eventually, making massive hucards was going to look strange, and I would’t be surprised if they stopped fitting in jewel cases at that point. Considerations for new cards and cases would have had to have been taken into account. SFC carts benefited from already being pretty spacious.
Yes the expensive SFC carts sold good. They were expensive nonetheless, and the later runs of games didn’t even get large runs in the first place. I myself prefer CD games and their cheap price vs. Cartridges. Like PSX vs. N64. Those N64 carts were pricey man. They didn’t even have cartoons on them either.
Also, sound addons for the backplane aren’t always the best marketing solution even if they are the best technical solution, as it narrows the target audience and possibly alienates those who don’t get the addon and get less of an experience because of it . At least with CDs, you weren’t in for any surprises. You have the CDROM setup, you are good to go. No extra doodad to buy. There are a lot of factors that could have come in to play. Not everyone may have wanted to go buy a sound addon to expand the life of their console. Many may have just shrugged and moved onto something else that was just as good out of box. Who’s to say, really. The more addons that start getting added on, the more of an unsure thing you may begin to see for that consoles future… I am sure the PCE would have had some kind of neat addons, but who is to say it would have been a success in keeping the life of the PCE going?
What looks great on paper doesn’t always work out once put into action.
You of all people should understand the concept of "redundancy". Really, now. There are a ton of redundant sprites, tiles, tables, etc in a CD game. No to mention compression. What the CD format offered was incredible (albeit in limited sections), but what was actually taken advantage of? Barely at all by comparison.
Me of all people? What does that mean exactly? For comparisons sake, go look at the PCE vs SFC Dracula X comparisons. They speak for themselves. We are talking one specific game here. Not the all encompassing CD-ROM library and the various tricks and behind the scenes technology.
You think the SGX failed because of the CDROM addon!? That's ridiculous. There was a CD addon for the SGX. No developer ever made such a game or even a bi-compatible game. Second, 5 games. 5 WHOLE games. If the system had something like 50-100 games, maybe you'd have a point. But 5 games? Yeah, the CD addon wasn't responsible for the SGX only having 5 games.
Its not ridiculous. Look at it. No one developed for the SuperGrafx. Why? I bet it’s probably because they enjoyed working on the more popularly selling PCE+CD and devoted far more time to that system. No CD game makes use of the SuperGrafx. If the CDROM unit had never come out, and never had any time spent in development on it, the Super Grafx probably would have been a lot more refined (better cpu?), and would have offered a lot more to developers since they wouldn’t have had the option of developing CD-ROM games. You are looking at the super grafx as it stands today. REMEMBER TOM, we are imagining a world where the CDROM never came out. History could be very different my man.
Maybe instead of being a new console like that Sega Neptune plan, it would have just been an add-on for the back to add more capabilities to the system like the 32-X. It would have been ideal probably since the Neptune never even came out and its still a joke.
If this were the case, SuperGrafx would have been a clear, and definite step up from PCE, rather than a gimpy stepping stone to attempt to tie people over…. If the CD-ROM never came out and instead time was spent developing both the SuperGrafx hardware (either as an addon or a new console) and library. 5 games blows.
Again, you're mixing Japanese game system with an American system. The MegaCD had much more than just FMV games, and still did poorly. Even had one of the top famous RPGs - Lunar series. The MegaCD in Japan wasn't trying to be a PC. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. And as far as PCE having "nice high color stuff"? Knowing the extremely large subpalette systems for sprites/tiles, most games were modest with their color counts (CD or hucard).
More semantics. You know what I mean. I’m not mixing anything up. All the games mentioned were Japanese releases. Like Lunar, which I totally already mentioned. FMV games were an interesting idea at the time, but the hardware proved it wasn’t ready for that nonsense. Its like watchin hires porn on dialup in 640x480 256 color mode. Sounds great until you do it and are displeased with the result.
As far as ‘high color stuff’: Replace it with vibrant if it makes it less technical for you. PCE games have a distinct flair for being very vibrant and colorful. The technical aspects need not be mentioned really. Use your eyes. Go look at all the comparison thread pictures. There you will find tons of proof of which system is more lush and exciting to the eyes. My eyes do not see, nor do they give two flying shits about bits and bytes. They care about what they get to stare at.
So you don't think there can be absurd speculation!? How about I say the PC-Engine would have had mini candy canes inside every game box/purchase if the CD addon didn't exist? Speculation can be absurd. When speculating, you still have to apply logic, common sense, past history, near history, and related events. And since this is about the PCE, all has to be in the context of Japan (not the US or other countries) and consoles (not computers).
No, I just don’t see the point in pointing out that a speculation is absurd because you don’t agree with it … Especially when it’s within the bounds of reason. I can apply other regions/computers/consoles as examples if I want to. It’s why they are called examples. Use the concept presented within said example and apply it elsewhere. You keep spouting on and on about logic and various “wholes” in them, but have some problem with applying a clean example across the board. Should US business practices only use other US businesses as examples to learn from? Should they ignore successful strategies of other nations?
Need I remind you the Famicom took on the SMS (which had better graphics and better sound with the FM module), the Megadrive, and even competed with the PCE. Yet it was inferior to all systems, be it minor to major in differences. The MegaCD was technically better than the Megadrive. It was newer and shinier and still never even sold 1:1 (or even 1/8) to the MD fan base.
Sometimes theres a successful underdog. Doesn’t mean it’s a 100% thing. Especially when you weigh in the fact that technical aspects didn’t set it apart in a good way. The game library did, and part of that was Nintendo’s marketing strategy. Nothing to do with technical aspects.
Tumor like addons? The CD unit itself was a tumor like addon. The system card 3.0 as an "addon". The AC was an addon. The six button controller, etc. And given Sega's history, I don't see how they proved anything about moving on. They had the CD addon and the 32x. As far as "external" addons, SFC would have proved the rule. But technically, they had a lot of built in cart addons. Pick your poison.
They also had the power base converter. Having all kinds of crap clicked on makes it like tumors. And yes GIVEN SEGAS HISTORY, they proved why it is best to NOT keep adding crap and move on. They failed hard because of constantly adding crap to their console instead of cutting the crap and moving on. The PCE+CD was just that. a PCE + CD. two nicely sized pieces sitting next to each other. It wasn't nearly tumor like in comparison to the MegaDrive CD which was far bulkier, and was a whole lotta useless plastic.
Do you see now?
(http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/2226/b7ab5406ca3ec4ce618cf92ft9.jpg)
Or Now?
Fact: PC-Engine had the most expansion port of any console. It's incredible in the amount of accessibility on that back plane. They could have easily made an SGX style addon instead of a separate system (and then later made an all in one, like the Duo was). To think they went to such lengths to create that impressive back bus without any such plans for serious addon.. is well, ignorant. Given that this was NEC's first system into market, I don't think they expected the base system to live as long as it did. Nor did they think CD format was going to be as popular as it became when the first released it in '88. And like I said before, by releasing the all in one Duo - the solidified any future possible upgrades on that back bus port. The PCE's specs were pretty much set in stone by that point (with the SGX proving that addition sprites and BG layers didn't make a difference to the fanbase).
Sure you can call me ignorant if you want. You of course would be wrong, and need to re-read what I said. I never said they didn’t have plans for addons. What I mean is, its often the case that expansion ports are added, and before the console has the chance to use them as planned, they fail or they decide to not go through with things. Like the PC-FX.
The PC-Engine had a popular/pretty strong following. Add that with number of clean/expansive hardware upgrade options that other systems couldn't really to match - it could have went into a number of different directions. We just happen to end up with the ones that were made because of choices by NEC, not necessarily hardware limitations. I think it's foolish and ignorant to look at the base PCE setup that was originally release, and think that's what they would have stuck with though out the system's life if the CD addon did exist. I mean, they had the balls to make the CD addon for the PCE to begin with. 1988, that was pretty hot shit. You think they wouldn't have done something else on that scale if it didn't come out?
What’s with the constant condescension there guy. Its not foolish and ignorant to think maybe they would have never gone with the expansions after all and would have just milked the hucard size growth as much as possible. It’s a possibility that we will never know because we can’t rewrite history. Its also possible they may have just kept with pretty standard fair HuCard stuff without evening going through the HuCard beefing upping. The C64 did that and did pretty damn good!
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:lol: Holy Shit. That was longer than my last term paper. :wink:
Anyway, as long as we are all theorizing and speculating; I think if there was no CD add-on, it would've eventually looked like the Neo Geo AES carts.
an uber-HU!!!!!!!
:mrgreen:
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:lol: Holy Shit. That was longer than my last term paper. :wink:
Anyway, as long as we are all theorizing and speculating; I think if there was no CD add-on, it would've eventually looked like the Neo Geo AES carts.
an uber-HU!!!!!!!
:mrgreen:
Yeah man, uber-hu's would have been massive, making the cutesey little huCard's not so cool. They would look pregant
Imagine trying to take it with your GT. You would confuse the card and the console!
:D
I really think they wanted to retain their small form factor cards, and sleek jewel case storage, rather than fall in line with all the shelf whore cartridges.
I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on? Storing CD games is super easy. They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs. Not so much for carts.
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The ISO track is only 20megabytes and there is a TON of extra/unused junk between the actual data. But minus the cinemas, each stage is about 192k. That includes redundant tiles and sprites though. I'd say after removal of redundant data, and compression applied - you'd be close to the 18megabit size. Since the SFC version isn't an exact port, you can't know for sure more or less how much the BG detail/tiles took up in comparison. There are also other factors you don't know about on the SFC, like what kinda of compression system they used, how much the sample ram took up for each track (sample based synth), etc.
Very true about the sound quality, it ranges from taking up very little space to games such as Tales of Phantasia, with its high quality instrument and voice samples and consequently taking up a very large amount of space.
About the 18megabit estimation, from my understanding, scd games load 192k at a time, take that with the number of loads for each level that are present in Rondo plus adding Maria, puts the total at over 34megabits, this includes redundant sprites.
I don't know anything about the compression system each game uses.
Hey Tom, do you know why 64k of the 256k is held back in super cd games?
tatsujin
there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games,
I should finish the Dracxx vs Rondo in detail thing i was always going to do.
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hahaha. This thread is great! I always loved the "What If" titles from Marvel. hehe
I think the PCE would have been fine without the CDROM, but it would not have been as popular. This is a little off topic, but I think the lack of CDROM would have probably been a blessing to the TG, overseas. A lot would have depended on more games being brought over from Japan, which is perhaps wishful thinking, but it would have also meant a larger Huey selection by default.
But would the TG/PCE have a beard in this alternate universe? :-k
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I vote Yes, and for many of the reasons stated above, but mainly because they could really have tapped the full potential of the hucard if they did not introduce the cdrom. Yeah, SFII is about as far as they ever got, but even that doesn't remotely scratch the surface of what can be done with the hucard port. And if that isn't enough...the expansion port gives virtually unlimited possibilities to the machine, giving it unparalleled expandability that even consoles of the modern age can't even begin to compete with, and certainly no consoles back then could compare with. Virtually unlimited access to the entire machine from that huge 69 pin port. By crafting the correct controller, you can add all sorts of crazy hardware...new CDROM drives, USB flash drives, hard drives, you name it. It's all possible. So even if the CDROM hadn't been introduced, it could easily have been introduced later anyways, since creating new devices for the machine is, for all intents and purposes, exceptionally easy.
As for the Mickey Mouse comment...actually, Castle Of Illusion is one of my favorite Genesis games. :) SMW is my favorite Mario game. These games could easily have been made on the PCE. The hardware is not the deciding factor between SMW and Bonk...the developers are. Yeah, Hudson's developers were good, but Nintendo's developers were phenomenal and their budget was huge. Swap development teams and you'd have seen a respective change in game quality. The Bonk games rock, there's no disputing that. :) But SMW is amazing, and the reason for that is because the developers of the game were amongst Nintendo's elite-within-the-elite...their new flagship game wasn't going to be developed by their fresh-out-of-university neophytes. Give me one year and $750,000 and I'll produce a platform game superior to SMW on the PCE.
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I think that if there had been no CD addon, there would have been something else - you can't design a system with that kind of expandability and not exploit it; especially since expandability was central to the design in the first place. (remember the prototype pics where it slotted into a computer?)
But, had NEC been even more idiotic than they already were and not gone ahead with the CDRomrom, it would have suffered mightily, and probably would have it's lifespan cut by several years.
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But, had NEC been even more idiotic than they already were and not gone ahead with the CDRomrom, it would have suffered mightily, and probably would have it's lifespan cut by several years.
Yeah, it would have lost the extra oomph , it had over competition, and it wouldnt have been the one to set the CD-ROM precedent, complete with easily one of the most kick ass CD-ROM libraries to date.
Plus if NEC was numb enough to not release the CDROM.... whos to say they wouldn't have dropped the ball entirely, and released some useless addons that dont amount to much.
It might have been neat to have a "SuperGrafx" addon to give it more power, and maybe a sound unit, or just beefed up HuCards, but I really don't think the system would have been the same. It would have been another run of the mill console, where the library would have been the deciding factor in its popularity,...
rather than a sweet hucard library, followed by a kickass CDROM one, complete with sweet power metal.
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I know from extensive research that NEC scrapped the development of another piece of hardware in favour of the CD-ROM unit. So if they hadn't released it, they would have caused a revolution in console gaming with their state of the art virtual reality helmet.
I even have pictures to prove it.
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9732/pcevr.jpg)
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:lol:
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I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on? Storing CD games is super easy. They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs. Not so much for carts.
You mean the Huey cases that were the same size as a cd case? Even the double case SF2, the only one and how "late in the game" could have been made into a single jewel.
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I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on? Storing CD games is super easy. They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs. Not so much for carts.
[sarcasm]
Oh yes, no doubt unwieldy game storage was tops in their plans. Allah knows that you couldn't swing a dead cat back in the mid eighties without hitting a CD player, CD storage racks, and/or stacks of jewel cases.
[/sarcasm]
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I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on? Storing CD games is super easy. They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs. Not so much for carts.
[sarcasm]
Oh yes, no doubt unwieldy game storage was tops in their plans. Allah knows that you couldn't swing a dead cat back in the mid eighties without hitting a CD player, CD storage racks, and/or stacks of jewel cases.
[/sarcasm]
All this time here and I only now find out about the sarcasm text option.
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All this time here and I only now find out about the sarcasm text option.
Don't worry; it's been disabled for Canucktonians.
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All this time here and I only now find out about the sarcasm text option.
Don't worry; it's been disabled for Canucktonians.
I noticed you didn't use the sarcasm text option right there. lol
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I noticed you didn't use the sarcasm text option right there. lol
Yes I did; it's denoted at the top left of my post (above the avatar pic and just below the line separating posts).
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I noticed you didn't use the sarcasm text option right there. lol
Yes I did; it's denoted at the top left of my post (above the avatar pic and just below the line separating posts).
LMAO :clap: :clap: :lol: :lol:
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:lol:
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I almost wonder if that was half the reason they jumped to CD so early on? Storing CD games is super easy. They have all kinds of racks and things for CDs. Not so much for carts.
You mean the Huey cases that were the same size as a cd case? Even the double case SF2, the only one and how "late in the game" could have been made into a single jewel.
yes but to compete with the ever growing carts of the SFC and the like, I imagine the hueys would have gotten quite a bit thicker than even SF2, which is basically a Sys3 sized card. SF2 was a early SFC title. It was a 16mb cart! It only got larger from there. Its pretty easy to mask the size of the internals when wrapped around a big plastic shell. Not so much if its a slim card.
eventually the cases would have had to be thicker, and no longer jewel casey. Or they would have a cutout on the front to accommodate the bulge :D
I may not be fully correct, but space comes at a bit of a premium in Japan in comparison to USA where we just make everything large and obnoxious ! :). I always wondered if that was why FC carts were tinier than NES, and why Saturn games in .jp came in regular cases while they came in huge cases here.
Maybe the boys in PCE hardware design land really liked having the slimmest form factor mediums possible at the time!
[sarcasm]
Oh yes, no doubt unwieldy game storage was tops in their plans. Allah knows that you couldn't swing a dead cat back in the mid eighties without hitting a CD player, CD storage racks, and/or stacks of jewel cases.
[/sarcasm]
Hey man! you can fit more jewel cases in the same space as SFC carts!
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yes but to compete with the ever growing carts of the SFC and the like, I imagine the hueys would have gotten quite a bit thicker than even SF2, which is basically a Sys3 sized card. SF2 was a early SFC title. It was a 16mb cart! It only got larger from there.
The HuCards wouldn't necessarily have gotten bigger. The PCE version of SF2' is 20mb, but the hump in the card is empty and only serves as a place for the label; they could have made the HuCard the exact same size as its brethren by using a stick-on label (à la the Arcade Card Duo). Considering that the bump covers half the rom-fillable area and roughly doubles the thickness of the card, I guesstimate* that with three rom layers at the bump, a game could be twice as big (40mb), which is equal to the largest Genesis game and nearly as big as the largest SNES games (48mb). Hell, they likely could've made 'em even bigger, as my estimate assumes that 20mb is the max that can fit in a 'normal' sized HuCard, but even if they couldn't, a bumped HuCard could quite possibly hold more gaming goodness than anything that came out on the Genny or SNES, since the Genny has demonstrably less efficient code (in terms of size) and the big SNES games were bloated with samples not game code and graphics.
* - highly accurate and NASA approved
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Hmm, maybe!
But !! if they started adding OTHER things, like sound chips, etc. This would have upped the size considerably for mr. huey..
like the Konami SCC cartridges for MSX. whole extra sound chip inside those. A very long one to boot.
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(general)
hhahhahahahhahahhaahhhahahahhahahhahaha
(/general)
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(general)
hhahhahahahhahahhaahhhahahahhahahhahaha
(/general)
IMPROPER USE OF TAGS. []s not ()s!
INFIDEL!
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yes but to compete with the ever growing carts of the SFC and the like, I imagine the hueys would have gotten quite a bit thicker than even SF2, which is basically a Sys3 sized card. SF2 was a early SFC title. It was a 16mb cart! It only got larger from there.
The HuCards wouldn't necessarily have gotten bigger. The PCE version of SF2' is 20mb, but the hump in the card is empty and only serves as a place for the label; they could have made the HuCard the exact same size as its brethren by using a stick-on label (à la the Arcade Card Duo). Considering that the bump covers half the rom-fillable area and roughly doubles the thickness of the card, I guesstimate* that with three rom layers at the bump, a game could be twice as big (40mb), which is equal to the largest Genesis game and nearly as big as the largest SNES games (48mb). Hell, they likely could've made 'em even bigger, as my estimate assumes that 20mb is the max that can fit in a 'normal' sized HuCard, but even if they couldn't, a bumped HuCard could quite possibly hold more gaming goodness than anything that came out on the Genny or SNES, since the Genny has demonstrably less efficient code (in terms of size) and the big SNES games were bloated with samples not game code and graphics.
* - highly accurate and NASA approved
Correct. It's 20megabit and the "bump" is there for the label only. You don't need to add more "chips" to increase the rom size either. If each of the two 8megabit roms (separate from the 4megabit first one and second mapper chip) had just 1 more address line each, the rom size would totaled 36megabits without adding any extra "chips" - which the that hucard has room for. Every additional address line exponentially raises the size of the rom limit. And considering these are already custom glop top rom setups already, nothing was stopping them from doing it.
I think it's funny someone can say "yeah, but you don't know for sure. It could have happened totally different". Well duh. Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction. Given NECs track record with the PCE, there's more proof than not - to say they *would* have upgraded hucards and possible other attachments. Just look was what the put out; the amazing PCE LT, PCE GT, very first CDrom addon, the SGX, portable LCD screen for the PCE, the Duo unit, the whopping 18megabits of RAM via the arcade card. Actually, I'm not going to continue on. I think all one has to do is take a good look at the current past history to make solid assumptions. To see it in any other view point and think NEC would have just "dropped the ball".. well, I can't think of a word that describes that mentality that's not considered insulting.
And Arkhan: MML engine. Jesus. You still don't understand? And "Develo" isn't the official document. It's a third party book and CD for hobbyist programmers. Official docs have listed the PCE's audio "chip" (you know, the one you think isn't a "real" chip because it's embedded on the same package as the CPU) as PSGWSG and WSG, as well as Japanese PCE sites. You think I made it up? Not to mention your own beloved MSX system has docs referring to the SCC as WSG. It's funny that you complain about my terms, when you don't even know what PSG means in context. In the most generic sense, everything is "PSG" - including the SNES, Amiga, Megadrive, etc. Your own interpretation of terms seems to be all over the place. I choose WSG because it's been used before and it more accurately describes the PCE audio architype that just something generic as "PSG". Anyway I'm sick of having these arguments with you on and off forum (which sucks, because you're a PCE coder. We shouldn't be arguing, we should be PCE coding). I didn't originally respond to you, I responded to Zeta. I'm sure the man can speak his own mind and/or rebut what I had to say. And you love throwing around terms like "homo" and "gay" in speaking about other peoples work or opinions, but you get butt hurt when someone does it to you. So.. chill out or be ignored (here and there).
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I think it's funny someone can say "yeah, but you don't know for sure. It could have happened totally different". Well duh. Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction.
Yes, anything can happen. That is precisely why saying one person’s opinion or thought is absurd/wrong is a bit uncool. Everyone has given pretty sound thoughts. None are outside the bounds of reason/possibility.
I think all one has to do is take a good look at the current past history to make solid assumptions. To see it in any other view point and think NEC would have just "dropped the ball".. well, I can't think of a word that describes that mentality that's not considered insulting.
Lol, Aren't you the one who griped about NEC being stupid for not putting FM in the CD-ROM unit?
Companies can make mistakes. Maybe NEC would have just nixed the PCE when the CD-ROM never came out and went full on into the SuperGrafx territory. Sound's like it could have been possible to me. It might have even been pretty awesome, because then maybe the SuperGrafx-CD would have come out, with some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally kickass CD games on top of the SuperGrafx having way better hardware.
And Arkhan: MML engine. Jesus. You still don't understand?
No, I understand completely, and have from the beginning, dude. You were just too busy being technical and throwing terminology around to notice. You are the one who said all of that stuff in *filename*.inc was MML, and argued the point quite adamantly when I said it wasn’t. It's not MML and never will be, no matter what kind of semantics you would like to argue. its COMPILED MML. The MML gets turned INTO that. That’s all.
And "Develo" isn't the official document. It's a third party book and CD for hobbyist programmers. Official docs have listed the PCE's audio "chip" (you know, the one you think isn't a "real" chip because it's embedded on the same package as the CPU) as PSGWSG and WSG, as well as Japanese PCE sites.
Read what I have said again. Hu7 sure ain't Develo, and you know I have more than one document in use here.. Though, they both refer to it as PSG, as do some other documents. I never said a damn thing about WSG being incorrect. In fact, the manual for Squirrel calls it WSG. You say tomato, I say tomato. I use the two interchangeably depending on what flies out of my mouth/fingers first. Maybe you would realize all of this if you weren't so busy asserting what YOU know and use as being the only correct way, and rejecting anything else by saying it is wrong. This isn't the case, and it would do you well to realize that. For what it is worth, I ran the chip topic past some hardware people who could talk circles around any one of us PCE people, and they all came to the conclusion that neither is wrong and that it would be a giant waste of time to start debating it. So, shame on you for "feeling the need to call me out for being wrong and absurd". I never said calling it a chip was wrong, all I said was that I personally don't see it as a chip for obvious reasons. Never came down on you for saying it is indeed a chip. So, that is your bad for starting up an argument over a moot point that didn’t really need any addressing.
You think I made it up? Not to mention your own beloved MSX system has docs referring to the SCC as WSG. It's funny that you complain about my terms, when you don't even know what PSG means in context. In the most generic sense, everything is "PSG" - including the SNES, Amiga, Megadrive, etc. Your own interpretation of terms seems to be all over the place.
I’m not complaining about your terms. No sir! I'm complaining about you emphasizing that YOU are right, and I am wrong, when in reality, we are BOTH right. I recall when you decided to adopt using WSG instead of PSG, and it was actually quite recently. Before then you were saying PSG also. I believe it was Chris Covell who used it on here possibly, and it prompted you to announce that you were using that instead. :D I was there when you announced it, and lots of triumphant luls were had. What happened?
And there you go again saying I don't know what things mean. That is why you keep finding yourself in arguments. You have different usage of terms sometimes that is sometimes a little more technical and literal. I often use generalized or “accepted” terminology. They are BOTH right and acceptable. It is common knowledge that the chips in MSX, and Spectrum for example are PSGs (The AY-3-8910). Programmable Sound Generators. They’re all over the place man!
I never applied a generic PSG term over every console/computer sound hardware. Dunno where that came from, or where it’s headed.
You brought up chip slang, so lets bring up some more chip slang. Anything chippy that isn’t FM is often referred to as PSG in a general sense. SCC is referred to mostly as simply SCC. Sometimes (rarely) WSG. SID is SID. They are all perfectly reasonable to be referred to as some sort of “PSG”…. And again, things like FM and Paula are not. Hence the [console PSG v redbook/sampled audio] == [computer psg vs sampled audio]. If you think these generalized classifications are ‘wrong and absurd’, you had better get cracking on informing a shit load of people man. Or you could realize that arguing semantic preferences is sort of retarded, and accomplishes nothing. Especially if you know what the person is talking about. Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop. Same thing, move on.
I choose WSG because it's been used before and it more accurately describes the PCE audio architype that just something generic as "PSG".
So has PSG. It’s been used. Even by yourself! Hell, there is even user- made documents calling it PSG. They both have been used. That is why arguing over technicalities is preeeeeetty lurpy. Noones winning a medal here.
Anyway I'm sick of having these arguments with you on and off forum (which sucks, because you're a PCE coder. We shouldn't be arguing, we should be PCE coding).
Agreed. You should think about that the next time you want to argue mundane details, or call someone out without realizing that both your view and their view are right, and also the next time you are about to drag IRC discussions onto a forum.
And you love throwing around terms like "homo" and "gay" in speaking about other peoples work or opinions, but you get butt hurt when someone does it to you. So.. chill out or be ignored (here and there).
Whose work are we talking about here? I don’t go around insulting other people in the PCE scenes work. And if you are trying to play the holier than thou card with the “homo” and “gay” thing, please, we are all guilty of that stuff. To deny that would be veryyyyy dopey. I also haven’t insulted anyone’s opinion that I am aware of here. I also don’t initiate arguments over stupid matters of preference with fellow sceners just because I “felt the need to”, or feel the need to drag crap from IRC onto a forum where it doesn’t serve much purpose other than to turn an otherwise decent discussion into this mess. I seem to recall you doing the arguing initiating (since you yourself said you felt the need to), and insulting MY work by calling a specific use of something stupid while also failing to realize your issue stemmed from your use of a term not agreeing with my use of a term that has multiple meanings/types/uses which I even pointed out to you all the while without actually seeing what it is, or how it is put together, and then bringing it here to boot. So I believe YOU need to chill out. Not me. When have I ever just up and went HEY TOM: YOURE DOIN IT WRONG AND ABSURDLY. Or started pissing in your cheerios because you used a term differently than me.
Gonna have to go with a Never have on that one.
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Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop.
POP!
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No, I understand completely, and have from the beginning, dude. You were just too busy being technical and throwing terminology around to notice. You are the one who said all of that stuff in *filename*.inc was MML, and argued the point quite adamantly when I said it wasn’t. It's not MML and never will be, no matter what kind of semantics you would like to argue. its COMPILED MML. The MML gets turned INTO that. That’s all.
I said it was in "pseudo" MML and that it was an MML engine. It wasn't in BINARY format. There were text mnemonics and such. Even MooZ's forum I have it listed as such. You're the one that was upset that I even referred to it like that. "MML a is language - blah blah blah". MML compiles to a binary, but it still needs to be "interpreted" by an MML or "command string" capable engine. So if you understood everything from the beginning (in which you gave no indication that you did), then why did you sit there and argue with me for like half an hour? Either you wanted the argument then or you're lying now. The whole point, in case you forgot, was that you could convert the "pseudo" MML song format of Air Zonk over to your MML parser syntax (which you never did). And you bring up this in relevance with your DP forum post about Bonk? Where's the connection?
I use the two interchangeably depending on what flies out of my mouth/fingers first.
So I've noticed.
For what it is worth, I ran the chip topic past some hardware people who could talk circles around any one of us PCE people, and they all came to the conclusion that neither is wrong and that it would be a giant waste of time to start debating it.
You did, huh? Do your buddies happen to know what ASICs are by chance? Never mind the fact that even though it's embedded in the same package as the CPU, the same identical chip is in its own standalone pin package on the PC-FX. No draw the parallels draw the parallels between the model 1 Genesis to the very last version of the model 2 Genesis, to that. Get back to me when the dots start to connect.
I never applied a generic PSG term over every console/computer sound hardware.
I was implying that you might as well, since you don't seem to understand the term in context, its history, or its relative technical aspects. PSG, from the 2600, 5200, A400/A800, SG-1000, Coleco, Lynx, SMS, Speccy, BBC micro, ibm PCjr, Apple II, Amstrad CPCs, VIC-20, old Tandys, TI-99/4A, Channel F, Sharp, MSX 1, NES, GB/GBC, Atari ST, and countless arcades of the early 80's. They all have something in common, a few restrictive simple, simple, simple fixed waveform outputs. And almost all square because that was the cheapest and loudest method (and some with no duty cycle settings). SID is definitely in its own bracket, regardless of how rough it can/does sound. The PCE audio design is unique and different compared to those PSG setups.
Amiga's audio has been called "Wavetable Synthesis" since the very early days. But this is incorrect. It's Sample Based Synthesis. Wavetable synth is actually something different, but lots of people still use the old incorrect terminology.
You brought up chip slang, so lets bring up some more chip slang. Anything chippy that isn’t FM is often referred to as PSG in a general sense.\
This. Your slang. Has no technical merit or meaning or such. It just boils down to it being "chippy". You know, people often say the SNES sound is "fuzzy". Should we all refer to it as Super FSG (Filtered Sound Generation). But sometimes, it sounds like a Mini mOther f*cking Orchestra in there. We could call it Super MOFO... at those specific times >_>
Funny you should mention "chippy". Sounds quite a bit similar to "chiptune", which includes Genesis FM and SNES SPC. You know, by popular opinion.
PSG refers to .... ahh f*ck it. PSG. PC-Engine Sound Generation. :-"
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Its like arguing over calling it soda or pop.
POP!
WB :D
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I said it was in "pseudo" MML and that it was an MML engine. It wasn't in BINARY format. There were text mnemonics and such. Even MooZ's forum I have it listed as such. You're the one that was upset that I even referred to it like that. "MML a is language - blah blah blah". MML compiles to a binary, but it still needs to be "interpreted" by an MML or "command string" capable engine. So if you understood everything from the beginning (in which you gave no indication that you did), then why did you sit there and argue with me for like half an hour? Either you wanted the argument then or you're lying now.
Duder, you never said pseudo MML. You said it was MML. Huge difference! When I showed you and said what actual MML is, you said yours is close enough, that you didn't need the history lesson, and that people can adapt, since MML is just a command string setup. The engine even has misleading source files referencing MML, but nowhere in the engine is there an ounce of ACTUAL MML. I even asked "whats got MML" and you said "Azasel does!". As it stands, Azasel has what happens AFTER MML. MML is a very well defined, and very standardized language. If something doesn't support THAT language and its rules, then it has no business being called MML.
You did, huh? Do your buddies happen to know what ASICs are by chance? Never mind the fact that even though it's embedded i..etc..
Yep, and considering one is employed as an engineer in this sort of field and is older than either of us with considerably more experience and education to back it up.... :dance:. Some people just dont feel the need to argue these fussy little details, and enter the realm of "splitting hairs". Whats the phrase? "Mocky nicky" or something like that. Shrug off the difference of opinion on usage.
I was implying that you might as well, since you don't seem to understand the term in context, its history, or its relative technical aspects. PSG, from the 2600, 5200, ...... The PCE audio design is unique and different compared to those PSG setups.
Yes some PSGs are different than others, but when you really get right the hell down to it, they ARE all PSGs in the broadest sense, even if some are a bit more programmable/featurefull than others. Like how all cars are called cars even though some cars are definitely better than others. :) The PCE has a ferarri in comparison. You can nix the "you dont understand it" shenanigans. I think my usage background from C64, MSX, and PCE is enough proof that I understand these things. #-o
Amiga's audio has been called "Wavetable Synthesis" since the very early days. But this is incorrect. It's Sample Based Synthesis. Wavetable synth is actually something different, but lots of people still use the old incorrect terminology.
Yes. Some PC soundcards are called "wavetable synthesis" also, and are basically the same setups as Paula.
This. Your slang. Has no technical merit or meaning or such. It just boils down to it being "chippy". You know, people often say the SNES sound is "fuzzy". Should we all refer to it as Super FSG (Filtered Sound Generation). But sometimes, it sounds like a Mini mOther f*cking Orchestra in there. We could call it Super MOFO... at those specific times >_>
Alot of people refer to it as such. Basically everyone. Not just me, so, technical merit/meaning (as dictated by you), doesn't really come into play. I would bank the SFC (you mixed them up!) in with the likes of Amiga before I put it with PSGs anyways
Funny you should mention "chippy". Sounds quite a bit similar to "chiptune", which includes Genesis FM and SNES SPC. You know, by popular opinion.
Yeah, I could agree with that. It sort of goes hand in hand with ^^^^. Also, chiptune really does end up applying to anything that even SOUNDS chippy. Some of that is done in windows with trackers and ripped samples from various hardware. its become the general-purpose term.
PSG refers to .... ahh f*ck it. PSG. PC-Engine Sound Generation. :-"
and this. Sounds OK to me.
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tatsujin I really won't question your knowledge about the systems capability, which is huge and which I deeply respect. but for me, it is very hard to believe, that the graphics of dracula x would have been possible to fit on a single hucard of only 20Mbits. there are so much BGs, sprites, sprite animations & details in generally in this game, which I have never seen before or after in any other cart based games, beside the world of neo geo or quite later N64/DS games, which counting a much higher numbers of Mbits.
To put it into perspective, we can compare it with the best games in its category.
Shinobi III, Hagane, SCIV, Bloodlines, Dracxx, skyblazer, Contra HC, Contra III, etc. This group ranges from about 5 too 14 megabits in size.
At 192k per load(I'm not sure what 64k of the 256k total is used for) times the number of loads in Rondo, gives a total of 34megabits, you have to take into account that some things are reloaded each time, but still, you can see why it craps all over its rivals in terms of the things you brought up.
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Anything can happen, but speculation still requires logic and history for prediction.
Crazy talk, pure and simple. Logic's for suckers!
I didn't originally respond to you, I responded to Zeta.
Yet Arkhan seems to be having a go at a different windmill anyway, since he goes on and on about all the things that the PCE would have needed to stay competitive, when Zeta conversely argued that the PCE (sans CD) could've soldiered on for at least eight f*cking years while never exceeding the 'slightly better than a Famicom game' quality found in many of the early releases. Oh yeah, you're a real douche for labeling such a belief as absurd; it makes perfect sense, for why would NEC try to improve their product over such a long period of time when they could stay the course and keep losing money (unless you believe the highly plausible notion that such lackluster games would sell well enough to turn a profit)?
Yes, anything can happen. That is precisely why saying one person’s opinion or thought is absurd/wrong is a bit uncool.
Thank you, cool police. 8)
I think if the CD-ROM add-on never came out, NEC would've developed Super-Duper-HuCards powered by miniature bees that you'd have to periodically feed with special honey pellets. These cards would've been slightly smaller than the micro SD cards of today and would've added all sorts of capabilities (including, but not limited to, 8K resolution, 24 bit color, infinite background layers, and a built in pez dispenser). Now don't anyone say the preceding is wrong or absurd; that wouldn't be cool.
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Crazy talk, pure and simple. Logic's for suckers!
MMm. I like suckers.
Yet Arkhan seems to be having a go at a different windmill anyway, since he goes on and on about all the things that the PCE would have needed to stay competitive,
yeah :). If there was no CD w/ the fancy-audio, they certainly would have had to do something audio wise, especially after SFC came out. I still think the SuperGrafx would have actually been something cooler if the CD unit never arrived
when Zeta conversely argued that the PCE (sans CD) could've soldiered on for at least eight f*cking years while never exceeding the 'slightly better than a Famicom game' quality found in many of the early releases.
Hey, like tom said, alot of mediocre PCE games were widely liked in Japan. Kinda like how Japan liked Hydlide.
Oh yeah, you're a real douche for labeling such a belief as absurd;
Not douchey, just sort of unneeded in a discussion where everyone is at least giving sound reasons for their particular thought on what would have happened... calling it absurd is like a quick/dirty copout way of going "That sucks, you're an idiot".
Thank you, cool police. 8)
Hey dude, I invented cool in the 6th grade. :dance:
I think if the CD-ROM add-on never came out, NEC would've developed Super-Duper-HuCards powered by miniature bees that you'd have to periodically feed with special honey pellets. These cards would've been slightly smaller than the micro SD cards of today and would've added all sorts of capabilities (including, but not limited to, 8K resolution, 24 bit color, infinite background layers, and a built in pez dispenser). Now don't anyone say the preceding is wrong or absurd; that wouldn't be cool.
Oh, and maybe then it would be the SuperDUPER Grafx instead! That's what would have happened.
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Hey, like tom said, alot of mediocre PCE games were widely liked in Japan. Kinda like how Japan liked Hydlide.
And those mediocre titles are what maintained its profitability, right? It makes no logical sense to think that NEC would do absolutely nothing to improve the PCE and/or its games, thereby increasing market share and profits.
Not douchey, just sort of unneeded in a discussion where everyone is at least giving sound reasons for their particular thought on what would have happened...
There is no 'everyone'; Tom was responding to Zeta, who actually gave very little by way of reasoning behind his opinion. In fact, the CD's uniqueness was the sole factor stated; everything else was just Zeta's opinion of what would happen, without a single logical argument to back it up.
calling it absurd is like a quick/dirty copout way of going "That sucks, you're an idiot".
Before calling Zeta's line of reasoning absurd, Tom gave a whole paragraph full of facts and comparative examples to make his case. How exactly is that a quick and dirty cop out?
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And those mediocre titles are what maintained its profitability, right? It makes no logical sense to think that NEC would do absolutely nothing to improve the PCE and/or its games, thereby increasing market share and profits.
Of course they would have. I just think there would have eventually been a breaking point where they move to new hardware entirely instead of adding and adding... like the SuperGrafx. remove the CD hardware development from the timeframe. It was in 88, the SG was in 89. If there was no CD hardware development, I bet alot more time would have went into the SuperGrafx and it would have been like going from FC to SFC rather than PCE to PCE w/ slightly more oomph.
I imagine what would happen if a bunch of games wanted better sound and had to make a chip on the card, so tons of cards would keep having them on it if there was no sound expansion unit. Would be pretty odd.
There is no 'everyone'; Tom was responding to Zeta, who actually gave very little by way of reasoning behind his opinion. In fact, the CD's uniqueness was the sole factor stated; everything else was just Zeta's opinion of what would happen, without a single logical argument to back it up.
I think his reasoning and opinion kind of speaks for itself, and you can fill in the gaps yourself.
Before calling Zeta's line of reasoning absurd, Tom gave a whole paragraph full of facts and comparative examples to make his case. How exactly is that a quick and dirty cop out?
generally, declaring something absurd is like an added nail in a coffin in case your actual argument is either nonexistent, isn't very good or is a simple difference of opinion. this seems like a few differences of opinions, and calling any of them absurd, chock full o facts or not, isn't accomplishing anything. Everything thats been said by everyone (excluding the candy canes and bees), is at least POSSIBLE, and realistic. Its a bit unfair / goony to go "well, your speculation on an alternate past reality is just absurd, and this is why"
and fwiw, I think using the word absurd, is absurd. and thats just my opinion, followed by my subsequent replies about it.
id much rather prefer to just discuss the crap instead of deciding whats absurd and whos doing what and is better at knowing whatever the hell it is were talking about
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WTF, this is going crazy. I blame Tom.
Something that may or may not have been pointed out by now (I'm in a hurry and can't read all of these book-length, tit-for-tat bickering posts) is that the very question is shaky as best. The CDROM2 isn't something that NEC just dreamed up one day as a token add-on. Its pretty obvious that it was part of the whole idea from (almost) the very beginning. Its impossible to imagine a CDROM2-less PC Engine because it pretty much always had one. It wasn't long after the release of the system that HuCards became a "plan B" medium that only the most mainstream titles were released on (Momotaro, Bomberman, Street Fighter) with all the "real" games being sold as CDROMs to the people who could afford/justify the expense of a CDROM enabled system.
Would DVDs have become as popular as they did if they never added AC-3 sound? Its very hard to say since only the earliest players/discs lack it, and %99.999 of all DVD users didn't even know of the existence of plain stereo DVDs. To most of us, they always had DD/DTS sound. Likewise, the PC Engine always had a CDROM.
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Something that may or may not have been pointed out by now (I'm in a hurry and can't read all of these book-length, tit-for-tat bickering posts) is that the very question is shaky as best. The CDROM2 isn't something that NEC just dreamed up one day as a token add-on. Its pretty obvious that it was part of the whole idea from (almost) the very beginning. Its impossible to imagine a CDROM2-less PC Engine because it pretty much always had one.
A valid point, though I still think the question is a good one. Speculation's fun.
It wasn't long after the release of the system that HuCards became a "plan B" medium that only the most mainstream titles were released on (Momotaro, Bomberman, Street Fighter) with all the "real" games being sold as CDROMs to the people who could afford/justify the expense of a CDROM enabled system.
From 1989 onward, a little more than a third of the PCE's library is on HuCard (they make up about 40% of the total library), so I can't really buy this argument. Admittedly, there's quite a bit of crap in those 275 or so titles, but there's also a hefty amount of good games that weren't part of an established series or based on something already popular.
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From 1989 onward, a little more than a third of the PCE's library is on HuCard (they make up about 40% of the total library), so I can't really buy this argument. Admittedly, there's quite a bit of crap in those 275 or so titles, but there's also a hefty amount of good games that weren't part of an established series or based on something already popular.
I still wonder though , since SG launched in 89, what would have happened to ITS library if there was no CD unit. I imagine it having more than 5 games.
Maybe 10! 20 even.
(hopefully more, not that we will ever know).
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second that last post from zeta!
proto pictures for the pce cd-rom add-on where puplished when the pce was barely released. probably even before.
old link: http://nfggames.com/games/pce_protos/
those were taken from a magazin about the pce just shortly puplished after its release. so those must have been around already for a while.
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second that last post from zeta!
proto pictures for the pce cd-rom add-on where puplished when the pce was barely released. probably even before.
old link: http://nfggames.com/games/pce_protos/
those were taken from a magazin about the pce just shortly puplished after its release. so those must have been around already for a while.
true dat.
:)
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second that last post from zeta!
proto pictures for the pce cd-rom add-on where puplished when the pce was barely released. probably even before.
old link: http://nfggames.com/games/pce_protos/
those were taken from a magazin about the pce just shortly puplished after its release. so those must have been around already for a while.
Those prototypes are sweet. PCE is the future.
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nice add Tats. That would of been pretty cool but also you made a point.
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Oh my goodness, that is some beautiful hardware.
On a (possibly) related note, I remember seeing pics of a prototype Duo-esque system from Taito (obviously never released) that at the time I thought might have been a re-badged PC Engine (ala JVC WonderMega). Does anyone know anything about that one? I can barely remember it.
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On a (possibly) related note, I remember seeing pics of a prototype Duo-esque system from Taito (obviously never released) that at the time I thought might have been a re-badged PC Engine (ala JVC WonderMega). Does anyone know anything about that one? I can barely remember it.
I don't recall hearing about that one, but I have time to kill this morning. Google to the rescue!
It's the WoWoW (http://darkwatcher.home.att.net/console/wow.htm) (also the name of a Japanese satellite TV company, who was Taito's partner for the project), which was supposedly built around Taito's arcade hardware and would download games via satellite (like the Satellaview) in addition to games on CDs. Not a bad looking console; somewhat similar to the PS3.
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I would stab a sucka or two for one of those PCE's with the little screen.
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I don't recall hearing about that one, but I have time to kill this morning. Google to the rescue!
It's the WoWoW (http://darkwatcher.home.att.net/console/wow.htm) (also the name of a Japanese satellite TV company, who was Taito's partner for the project), which was supposedly built around Taito's arcade hardware and would download games via satellite (like the Satellaview) in addition to games on CDs. Not a bad looking console; somewhat similar to the PS3.
Yes, that thing! Before I didn't know about it being arcade board based. It sure looks like a backwards Duo, with a two button pad and a card sticking out of the front. I guess the field of mediocre CD based systems was so thick in 1992 that they decided against releasing the system. Fiscally, obviously, this was the right choice. It sure could have been cool though.
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with a two button pad
I think that pad may belong to the computer on the Wowow's left. It looks like a relatively common MSX controller, and the cord seems to go under the console without connecting to it. But I could be wrong.
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WoW,
I never heard/saw the WoWoW before. It does look like a DUO (or PS3).
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Who knows, perhaps without the cd add-on, they would have made a first for cartridges... multiple hu-cards for 1 game...
It could have worked similar to multi disc games, where you need a save file at the end of the first hu-card before you could play the second hu-card... and of course, if you try playing the second hu-card first, you would have gotten an error...
I think that idea could have worked... and who knows, maybe nec would have been the first to do so... by doing that, in a sense, you could really get the same as a cd, with the exception of the audio... which I dont think would be be nearly as good as cd quality...
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Who knows, perhaps without the cd add-on, they would have made a first for cartridges... multiple hu-cards for 1 game...
It's not exactly what you're talking about, but they kinda already did that with R-Type I and R-Type II.