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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 02:44:50 PM
Title: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 02:44:50 PM
Very surprised to stumble across this on youtube today! The police department is saying that they believed that the building was being used as a cannabis factory and they had no idea the building was a Mosque! Despite the large bright red sign!
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: nodtveidt on July 23, 2010, 02:55:16 PM
Not everyone understands a bright red sign, even if it's large. So, was it being used as a cannabis factory or not? And is this only "news" because it's about Islam?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 02:59:58 PM
Not everyone understands a bright red sign, even if it's large. So, was it being used as a cannabis factory or not? And is this only "news" because it's about Islam?
According to the london daily news (http://www.thelondondailynews.com/anger-after-armed-cops-raid-nation-islam-mosque-brixton-p-4385.html) no drugs were found whatsoever.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 23, 2010, 03:16:57 PM
The "Nation of Islam" isn't even real Islam. Just like Mormons aren't real Christians. What they are are racist. How many white Nation of Islam members are there?
Quote from: Louis Farrakhan
"White people are potential humans…they haven’t evolved yet."
That's nice. Thank you. I love you, too.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 23, 2010, 03:28:37 PM
I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.
Either way, the church didn't deserve it and cannabis needs to be legalized. 8)
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 03:41:43 PM
The "Nation of Islam" isn't even real Islam. Just like Mormons aren't real Christians. What they are are racist. How many white Nation of Islam members are there?
Quote from: Louis Farrakhan
"White people are potential humans…they haven’t evolved yet."
That's nice. Thank you. I love you, too.
How many descendants of slaves have been able to form their own independent nation on the North American continent, free from the constitution that sanctioned their suffering? The slaves have never really been 'freed' as they have always been subject to a legal document crafted by whites and for the benefit of whites.
I tried to find the full article with the Minister's quote that you posted Joe, but couldn't do it. What I can say about it is that it comes from a perspective 1) that truly being a human being is a high standard to strive for, 2) that white people have only been on the planet for 6,000 years and have not been able to develop a society that can coexist indefinitely with nature without destroying nature and the foundation of life itself, and 3) that black people are most likely potential humans as well, and who need to be raised up to a high standard of humanity as well.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 23, 2010, 06:00:19 PM
That quote is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/18/00.
Slaves have never been freed? What the shit is this? That must be some pretty tasty Kool-Aid you're drinkin'. Wait, let me guess... they aren't fully free until retributions have been paid!
Bottom line is this: Blacks have the same freedoms as whites. If a black person fails at any given thing, it is not because the white man is the oppressor. That is a huge cop-out. "It's not my fault!". Sure, many hurdles are tougher, mainly due to $$$ reasons. But success is still absolutely possible. And sure, all man may have descended from Africa, but I don't see how that makes any difference in anything.
Nation o' Islam does not believe that whites are worthy to be evangelized, and thus does not accept them into the Nation o' Islam.
The NOI believes that black people purposely created white people through selective breeding. I guess they thought "We need some white people 'round here". Blaming white people for any inadequacies is the same as blaming black people, since black people created white people. I don't understand their attitude of "us vs them". But I do enjoy Damon Wayans' impersonation of the rambling, nonsensical Farrakhan.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 06:22:08 PM
That quote is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/18/00.
Slaves have never been freed? What the shit is this? That must be some pretty tasty Kool-Aid you're drinkin'. Wait, let me guess... they aren't fully free until retributions have been paid!
Bottom line is this: Blacks have the same freedoms as whites. If a black person fails at any given thing, it is not because the white man is the oppressor. That is a huge cop-out. "It's not my fault!". Sure, many hurdles are tougher, mainly due to $$$ reasons. But success is still absolutely possible. And sure, all man may have descended from Africa, but I don't see how that makes any difference in anything.
Nation o' Islam does not believe that whites are worthy to be evangelized, and thus does not accept them into the Nation o' Islam.
The NOI believes that black people purposely created white people through selective breeding. I guess they thought "We need some white people 'round here". I don't understand their attitude of "us vs them".
Can you post the text of the article from 3/18/00 that the quote was alledgedly taken from?
What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?
If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?
And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.
The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people (it was not a project of black people generally). His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.
I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.
Either way, the church didn't deserve it and cannabis needs to be legalized. 8)
Even though the UK is supposedly a democratic country these days, I would imagine that the police department is probably not transparent when it comes to revealing its sources of false information...
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 23, 2010, 06:57:14 PM
The Philidelphia Inquirer's online database doesn't seem to go that far back, but put that quote into Google.
Quote
What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?
I counter that with a question of my own: What about the Constitution would you change? To that extent, why didn't Latinos, American Indians, and any other type of immigrant get a direct say? Even today, blacks comprise less than 13% of all Americans. Yet if they get a job they are condemned for working for a white man's corporation. Solution: All black people need to own their own businesses.
Quote
If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?
I don't purport to know anything about that particular mosque. Does it double as a school? What kind of education does it provide? Can you prove that white people went in there with the intention of shutting down the mosque? What would be their motive, other than they they just want to oppress people for fun? Because, somehow, the black race is a threat to them? Since they found no drugs I don't think the operation of the mosque will be affected. I chalk it up to bad police work. Also, are only white people allowed to join the police? Not everything that happens has a racial motive, you know. The NAACP is just as bad... nothing is coincidence, everything is racist to them.
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And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.
I don't know about that particular case. Racism does exist, but it is not present every time a white cop shoots a black person. Believe it or not, black people can be racist, too. But if Oscar Grant was innocent, then it was not his failure. However that does not mean he was the victim of a giant white conspiracy.
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The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people ... His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.
Well, then he was a very successful black man since white people have only one goal in mind: Oppress the black man. It's all we care about, really. :roll: When I am driving down the street with my white friends and we see a black guy walking around, we pull over to make sure that he is nowhere near approaching his potential. A white man's heaven is a black man's hell, after all (another quote from Farrakhan, I believe). :^o But even so, I fail to see how this is even logical. One man breeds white people, which would take generations upon generations. And he breeds them for the sole purpose of being the oppressor. Why would their color matter? Did this same guy breed Asian people to invent and engineer small electronics? What was his goal in breeding Latinos and Native Americans? And why oh why did he make the French? :wink:
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 23, 2010, 08:04:39 PM
The Philidelphia Inquirer's online database doesn't seem to go that far back, but put that quote into Google.
Quote
What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?
I counter that with a question of my own: What about the Constitution would you change? To that extent, why didn't Latinos, American Indians, and any other type of immigrant get a direct say? Even today, blacks comprise less than 13% of all Americans. Yet if they get a job they are condemned for working for a white man's corporation. Solution: All black people need to own their own businesses.
Quote
If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?
I don't purport to know anything about that particular mosque. Does it double as a school? What kind of education does it provide? Can you prove that white people went in there with the intention of shutting down the mosque? What would be their motive, other than they they just want to oppress people for fun? Because, somehow, the black race is a threat to them? Since they found no drugs I don't think the operation of the mosque will be affected. I chalk it up to bad police work. Also, are only white people allowed to join the police? Not everything that happens has a racial motive, you know. The NAACP is just as bad... nothing is coincidence, everything is racist to them.
Quote
And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.
I don't know about that particular case. Racism does exist, but it is not present every time a white cop shoots a black person. Believe it or not, black people can be racist, too. But if Oscar Grant was innocent, then it was not his failure. However that does not mean he was the victim of a giant white conspiracy.
Quote
The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people ... His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.
Well, then he was a very successful black man since white people have only one goal in mind: Oppress the black man. It's all we care about, really. :roll: When I am driving down the street with my white friends and we see a black guy walking around, we pull over to make sure that he is nowhere near approaching his potential. A white man's heaven is a black man's hell, after all (another quote from Farrakhan, I believe). :^o But even so, I fail to see how this is even logical. One man breeds white people, which would take generations upon generations. And he breeds them for the sole purpose of being the oppressor. Why would their color matter? Did this same guy breed Asian people to invent and engineer small electronics? What was his goal in breeding Latinos and Native Americans? And why oh why did he make the French? :wink:
I noticed that you chose not to answer my questions directly.
Firstly, black people played an extremely minimal role in crafting the constitution, and those who were enslaved had no say at all. Then, with the passage of the thirteenth amendment, slaves were "freed" but still subject to the jurisdiction of the constitution that they (formerly enslaved) had no part in crafting. How can you be considered "free" if you are bound to submit to someone else's legal system?
In this context, you may not understand an "us vs them" mentality, but I understand it.
The Nation of Islam believes that all people should have freedom, justice, and equality.
Stories like the London police raid show that freedom (of religious worship and assembly) and justice (ransacking a building on false pretense) are yet to be attained, though if you were to say that police are out of control in general and tend to mistreat everyone, I would have to agree... though I do certainly feel that black people and other 'people of color' tend to get it far, far worse than white people when it comes to police abuse.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 23, 2010, 08:34:35 PM
Like I asked, what would you change about the Constitution? What about it displeases you other than the fact that white peeps didn't directly ask black people for their direct input? How would one go about that, anyway? I know of no one person or group of people who can represent all black people, though idiots like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson sure try. The NAACP tries, too. Your claim that blacks aren't free because they had no part in creating the Constitution is ridiculous. I didn't have part in crafting it, either, so therefore I am not free. In fact, only the founding fathers are truly free.
I truly believe that the NOI and NAACP do more to harbor racism than to abolish it. They are their own greatest enemy. There are many whites who are racist, yes. But white people as a whole? That's just incredibly stupid and quite offensive. Like I said, black people can be racist, too. Just because they are black doesn't make their racism OK. I rank the NOI right up there with Scientology.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 23, 2010, 09:22:54 PM
I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.
Maybe they saw you walking out of the place? :D
I had to do it! Sorry >_O
anyway, anyone who thinks one color created another color is a dumbass and needs to learn him some science.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 23, 2010, 09:49:16 PM
It's not hard to believe we all originated from basically the same geographic regions, but color is more based on environment and takes hundreds if not thousands of years to change without cross breeding. But if there were no white people to cross breed with, then WTF? I guess you could selectively breed light-skinned blacks over a few dozen generations, but would that give them the natural desire to build castles, submit to a king and queen and enslave them some foreigners?
Cannabis should be legalized, though I'd never use it. I have plenty o' fun without it.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 24, 2010, 05:41:25 AM
Like I asked, what would you change about the Constitution? What about it displeases you other than the fact that white peeps didn't directly ask black people for their direct input? How would one go about that, anyway? I know of no one person or group of people who can represent all black people, though idiots like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson sure try. The NAACP tries, too. Your claim that blacks aren't free because they had no part in creating the Constitution is ridiculous. I didn't have part in crafting it, either, so therefore I am not free. In fact, only the founding fathers are truly free.
I truly believe that the NOI and NAACP do more to harbor racism than to abolish it. They are their own greatest enemy. There are many whites who are racist, yes. But white people as a whole? That's just incredibly stupid and quite offensive. Like I said, black people can be racist, too. Just because they are black doesn't make their racism OK. I rank the NOI right up there with Scientology.
How can you say that my claim that the slaves weren't truly freed is rediculous? Free in theory, yes, as long as they submit to another nation's laws. Real freedom would entail being able to craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. If black people decide to become communist, for example, they may be subject to assassination at the hands of the american government, such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.
The difference between black slaves and with you and I is that the slaves were captured and brought here against their will, while we as whites are more likely to have been descendant from immigrants. To capture a large group of people, then to release them in a land that is not their land of national origin, then force them to abide by laws and cultural norms that may be foreign to their own ancestral laws and cultural norms is not giving them freedom.
White people are not required for cross breeding, because black people contain all of the recessive genetic characteristics (http://www.blinn.edu/socialscience/LDThomas/Feldman/Handouts/0203hand.htm) of whites in their genetic makeup. Therefore you can slectively breed those who come out with recessive characteristics.
I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.
Maybe they saw you walking out of the place? :D
I had to do it! Sorry >_O
anyway, anyone who thinks one color created another color is a dumbass and needs to learn him some science.
You can certainly breed other mammals to produce specific characteristics, why not humans?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 24, 2010, 09:05:27 AM
So you are saying that the law should not apply to black people? Again, that is ridiculous. If anyone feels that way, they are free to leave the country (unless, of course, you were an a$$hole criminal and decided to break laws to begin with because you feel that they do not apply to you). Good luck with that as most other countries are much less desirable places to live, especially in Africa. In fact, what you have said is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Yes, black people were brought here by force. Nobody condones that. But to say that all of their ancestors are not truly free is indeed ridiculous (beyond, actually). I am not truly free, either, as I cannot gather a group of 3/4 German 1/4 French people like myself and create our own flag, laws and economic system. As for becoming communists, I don't think the extreme reaction to such a think had any color boundaries. You think white people didn't get the shaft when certain government people thought they were commies? Also, what happens when a black cop shoots a black suspect? Is it still the white man's fault because the black man is working for the white man or some nonsense like that?
Yes, you can breed dogs. But dogs are ready to reproduce at less than a year old so it goes much, much faster yet still takes a very long time. Humans have to be 13 or 14 years old before they can safely reproduce. One man could not do this. To think he could flies in the face of logic. Also, he must have been a very powerful single man if he could control a whole bunch of people for this long just to do this. I am positive that no science was involved in this idiotic theory.
OK that's enough for now. Let's have a discussion next time about how the stork brings babies or something else that is solved with simple common sense.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 24, 2010, 10:03:22 AM
So you are saying that the law should not apply to black people? Again, that is ridiculous. If anyone feels that way, they are free to leave the country (unless, of course, you were an a$$hole criminal and decided to break laws to begin with because you feel that they do not apply to you). Good luck with that as most other countries are much less desirable places to live, especially in Africa. In fact, what you have said is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Yes, black people were brought here by force. Nobody condones that. But to say that all of their ancestors are not truly free is indeed ridiculous (beyond, actually). I am not truly free, either, as I cannot gather a group of 3/4 German 1/4 French people like myself and create our own flag, laws and economic system. As for becoming communists, I don't think the extreme reaction to such a think had any color boundaries. You think white people didn't get the shaft when certain government people thought they were commies? Also, what happens when a black cop shoots a black suspect? Is it still the white man's fault because the black man is working for the white man or some nonsense like that?
Yes, you can breed dogs. But dogs are ready to reproduce at less than a year old so it goes much, much faster yet still takes a very long time. Humans have to be 13 or 14 years old before they can safely reproduce. One man could not do this. To think he could flies in the face of logic. Also, he must have been a very powerful single man if he could control a whole bunch of people for this long just to do this. I am positive that no science was involved in this idiotic theory.
OK that's enough for now. Let's have a discussion next time about how the stork brings babies or something else that is solved with simple common sense.
I'm not saying "the law" shouldn't apply to black people. I'm saying that white people capturing black people and forcing them to live under laws established by whites does not make black people free.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 24, 2010, 11:42:19 AM
blacks cant take the credit for making white people aliens are. Thats why whites cant coexist with nature.j/k thats such bs. I met farakkan in his home in arizona cause i did work there. he was very nice just like any white racist would be to a black mans face. the thing about the constitution being for whites is a crock of shit! please sounds like some b/s out of a spike lee film. like remember a few years back black people were saying blacks cant be racist. yeah ok, move your ass to nyc and say that. I dont think the london police are a a racist gang busting up places of warship for shits and giggles. them saying it was for pot may be just a cover. it sounds to outlandish. its modern london its not alabama in the fifties. lol this is also funny. ok I understand blacks being forced here but they are long ass dead. has nothing to do with now. every race or people were slaved, rapped etc... get over it
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: rag-time4 on July 24, 2010, 12:11:38 PM
Here's an update to the story, from telegraph.co.uk:
The photo in the story does not appear to be a photo of the interior of the mosque in question.
To Turbo: I didn't say that "whites can't coexist with nature".... I did say that we have thus far failed to develop a society (large-scale social organization) capable of doing so. It certainly doesn't have to be that way, but resource extraction, industrial production, and environmental damage will be tough to overturn without unseating some very powerful people and institutions.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 24, 2010, 12:23:03 PM
The photo in the story does not appear to be a photo of the interior of the mosque in question.
To Turbo: I didn't say that "whites can't coexist with nature".... I did say that we have thus far failed to develop a society (large-scale social organization) capable of doing so. It certainly doesn't have to be that way, but resource extraction, industrial production, and environmental damage will be tough to overturn without unseating some very power people and institutions.
i was just joking but i agree with you 100 percent
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 24, 2010, 02:30:40 PM
if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal
and getting enslaved and brought here?
Did they set this all up to torture themselves?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 24, 2010, 02:48:25 PM
if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal
and getting enslaved and brought here?
Did they set this all up to torture themselves?
lol why in the hell would someone make someone to rule over them? yunno how many generations it would take to do that? it couldnt be just one guy. and then what? he fd up and made a mexican and he didnt know what to do with it so he jumped on a boat sailed to a new world that nobody knew about and dropped him off so noone would find out about it?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 24, 2010, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: Arkhan
Did they set this all up to torture themselves?
According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites. I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave. I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension. But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Black Tiger on July 25, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
How can you be considered "free" if you are bound to submit to someone else's legal system?
Because they are free to leave and choose any other society to live in. They're also free to vote to to change the "legal system" and/or anything else in the society they're currently in. They're also free to say anything they want. America and Canada are free countries and nobody's forcing you to stay. Whatever the law of the land is, at this point it is what it is, even though it's constantly evolving. The human world isn't perfect, but you don't get any "free-er" than having an equal say in your country and the freedom to come and go as you please. Even "if" the law of the land was inherently "racist" or prejudiced (in the States it kinda is with gay rights), no one has to submit to anything because they are free to go.
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How can you say that my claim that the slaves weren't truly freed is rediculous? Free in theory, yes, as long as they submit to another nation's laws. Real freedom would entail being able to craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. If black people decide to become communist, for example, they may be subject to assassination at the hands of the american government, such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.
They are every bit as free as the so-called white people that are largely responsible for forming America, to go to another land and commit genocide and/or whatever else it takes to seize control and craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. It's not like "white people" were born inherently free and everything landed in their lap. But everyone born in North America is more or less as free as any humans on the planet today. So-called "black people" are free to come to Canada and not only join our many current communist parties or form their own, but they are also free to vote for them at the federal level. And if your description of a genocidal America is even remotely accurate, then they will have no problem quickly gaining full citizenship here.
Humans in general don't even have the right to claim ownership of the land and enslave and murder animals and destroy the landscape. It's something they do by choice at the expense of everything in their path (including other humans). You may want a specific group of humans to be free to be as guilty as the rest for taking what they want, but they already are as free as others to do so since it's a self-created "right".
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And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.
When you blame the actions of a single person on an entire race, whether or not that single person was motivated by racism them self, you are being truly racist. Especially when it comes to the wide range of enthicities that fall under the banner of "white".
That kind of police brutality happens regularly in Canada and society in general condemns it. A man in this Province was arrested for drinking a beer outside a hockey rink and in the jail cell block at the local police station while unarmed and face down, an officer shot him in the back of the head. Is that an indication of the lack of true freedom that [insert race of choice] has in our society?
As long as a person is lost in a skewed world view that pits specific races against each other, they'll never be free of the racist society of their own creation.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: nodtveidt on July 25, 2010, 12:20:24 PM
Freedom is a myth. No one is free.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 25, 2010, 01:22:54 PM
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 25, 2010, 04:31:27 PM
The whole "no one is free" thing usually revolves around the concept of money/currency. Like some song says: "You're a slave to the money and then you die". This is very true. Nothing on the planet is as powerful as the concept of money. But at the same time how can we have a productive society without it? Greed drives people and gives people incentive to work. "I want that phiggidy new TV, so I will get a job". But that concept doesn't really make me lose any sleep.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 25, 2010, 07:53:11 PM
Id rather be a slave to money, than be a broke ass caveman running around naked trying to catch a f*ckin rabbit so I can eat back in my smelly cave with my cave-hoe that has no deodorant / feminine products and thus smells like rotting doom.
Bring on the phiggidy jiggidy televisions and order some take out chinese foods. Slave it up.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 25, 2010, 08:46:31 PM
Even if you were a broke-ass caveman, you still aren't free. Why not? Because you need food and water to survive so you are a slave to them as well. It's good to be a slave!
Justifying slavery. It's what I do.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: nodtveidt on July 26, 2010, 01:49:01 AM
No matter what you do, you're always answering to someone or something higher on the chain than you. You are therefore never free.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 26, 2010, 02:49:20 AM
Even if you were a broke-ass caveman, you still aren't free. Why not? Because you need food and water to survive so you are a slave to them as well. It's good to be a slave!
Justifying slavery. It's what I do.
I AM A SLAVE TO BIOLOGY. MY BODY MAKES ME DO STUFF.
DAMNIT.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 26, 2010, 07:59:02 AM
Id rather be a slave to money, than be a broke ass caveman running around naked trying to catch a f*ckin rabbit so I can eat back in my smelly cave with my cave-hoe that has no deodorant / feminine products and thus smells like rotting doom.
Bring on the phiggidy jiggidy televisions and order some take out chinese foods. Slave it up.
ahhh haaaa thats the best!! for me i kinda do what i wanna do. alot of the stuff that is against the law is morrally wrong. so most the time i dont break the law. as far as money, i work to live not live to work. ill never be a slave to money like mc jagger said
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: ceti alpha on July 26, 2010, 10:56:13 AM
Wow! This NOI stuff is better than the crazy Nazi business with white man being created from lightning from God - or something like that. lol
Skin colour is due to genetic drift. Humans need vitamin D, but melanin in our eyes and skin acts as a filter. So, because melanin acts as a filter humans in northern regions have lighter skin containing less melanin, which allows us to take in more vitamin D when there isn't much sunlight. Southern regions have darker skinned people because they need to filter out the UV rays from the intense sun. That's why blacks used to get rickets when they first started migrating to northern regions. They weren't getting enough vitamin D from the sun. It's also why whites are more prone to skin cancer - we don't have as much melanin to filter out the UV rays. One isn't better than the other and there are, in fact, more differences within so-called "races" than between.
This type of crap is precisely why religion pisses me off. It promotes ignorant BS as divine truth and perpetuates myths, which in turn perpetuates hate.
This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 26, 2010, 12:19:49 PM
Wow! This NOI stuff is better than the crazy Nazi business with white man being created from lightning from God - or something like that. lol
Skin colour is due to genetic drift. Humans need vitamin D, but melanin in our eyes and skin acts as a filter. So, because melanin acts as a filter humans in northern regions have lighter skin containing less melanin, which allows us to take in more vitamin D when there isn't much sunlight. Southern regions have darker skinned people because they need to filter out the UV rays from the intense sun. That's why blacks used to get rickets when they first started migrating to northern regions. They weren't getting enough vitamin D from the sun. It's also why whites are more prone to skin cancer - we don't have as much melanin to filter out the UV rays. One isn't better than the other and there are, in fact, more differences within so-called "races" than between.
This type of crap is precisely why religion pisses me off. It promotes ignorant BS as divine truth and perpetuates myths, which in turn perpetuates hate.
This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hTnmZkHnTE
awesome ceti great info
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 26, 2010, 04:52:35 PM
Quote from: ceti alpha
This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.
Ha! That's great. I love it when people believe that there is no way atheists can have good morals. I usually argue that atheists choose their morals based on their own sense of right and wrong, not what religion tells them is right and wrong.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: nodtveidt on July 27, 2010, 12:55:30 AM
Steve Harvey is a total fool... always has been, always will be.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 27, 2010, 01:43:20 PM
if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal
and getting enslaved and brought here?
Did they set this all up to torture themselves?
Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire) and Timbuktu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu). Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."
If you're into books on the subject, I would recommend checking out They came before Columbus: The African presence in Ancient America (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus/Ivan-Van-Sertima/e/9780812968170/?itm=1&USRI=they+came+before+columbus)
Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....
As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....
According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites. I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave. I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension. But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.
It was not one black guy who made the white race, but it was one black man who came up with the idea to make the white race, who subsequently attracted followers and developed an institution which finished the process. As Joe argued earlier in the thread, it would take a long time from start to finish to complete the selective breeding process necessary.
The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the process took 600 years, of which Yakub, the black man who started the process, only lived to see a portion of.
I'll quote from the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad's book, Message to the Blackman in America, pages 110 to 111 (text bolded):
According to the word of Allah to me, 'Mr. Yakub was seen by the twenty-three Scientists of the black nation, over 15,000 years ago. They predicted that in the year 8,400 (what was in our calendar year before this world of the white race), this man (Yakub) would be born twenty miles from the present Holy City, Mecca, Arabia. And, that at the time of his birth, the satisfaction and dissatisfaction of the people would be: - 70 per cent satisfied, 30 per cent dissatisfied.'
And, that when this man is born, he will change civilization (the world), and produce a new race of people, who would rule the original black nation for 6,000 years (from the nine thousandth year to the fifteen thousandth year).
After that time, the original black nation would give birth to one, whose wisdom, Knowledge and power would be infinite. One, whom the world would recognize as being the greatest and mightiest God, since the creation of the universe. And, that He would destroy Yakub's world and restore the original nation, or ancient nation, into power to rule forever.
...
Mr Yakub was, naturally, born out of the 30 per cent dissatisfied. As we know, wherever there is a longing or demand for a change, nature will produce that man, who will bring it about.
-----
At this point I would like to break from the discussion to question Joe: What was your original motivation in deliberately insulting my religious beliefs? (Nation of Islam isn't real Islam, they are racists)
I posted this thread to share the news of the London Mosque being raided, or as it turns out, having its door broken, by London police. I didn't originally post it to discuss my religious beliefs or black history, though both topics are certainly important to me. If Ceti Alpha, for example, posted a news story about an atheist organization being raided by police, I wouldn't respond to the post by insulting his atheist beliefs, no matter how I feel about them!
Also, I don't mean to avoid anyones questions or arguments here by any means. I am totally fine with continuing the discussion that has broken out.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: turbogrfxfan on July 27, 2010, 04:29:40 PM
if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal
and getting enslaved and brought here?
Did they set this all up to torture themselves?
Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire) and Timbuktu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu). Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."
If you're into books on the subject, I would recommend checking out They came before Columbus: The African presence in Ancient America (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus/Ivan-Van-Sertima/e/9780812968170/?itm=1&USRI=they+came+before+columbus)
Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....
As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....
According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites. I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave. I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension. But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.
It was not one black guy who made the white race, but it was one black man who came up with the idea to make the white race, who subsequently attracted followers and developed an institution which finished the process. As Joe argued earlier in the thread, it would take a long time from start to finish to complete the selective breeding process necessary.
The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the process took 600 years, of which Yakub, the black man who started the process, only lived to see a portion of.
I'll quote from the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad's book, Message to the Blackman in America, pages 110 to 111 (text bolded):
According to the word of Allah to me, 'Mr. Yakub was seen by the twenty-three Scientists of the black nation, over 15,000 years ago. They predicted that in the year 8,400 (what was in our calendar year before this world of the white race), this man (Yakub) would be born twenty miles from the present Holy City, Mecca, Arabia. And, that at the time of his birth, the satisfaction and dissatisfaction of the people would be: - 70 per cent satisfied, 30 per cent dissatisfied.'
And, that when this man is born, he will change civilization (the world), and produce a new race of people, who would rule the original black nation for 6,000 years (from the nine thousandth year to the fifteen thousandth year).
After that time, the original black nation would give birth to one, whose wisdom, Knowledge and power would be infinite. One, whom the world would recognize as being the greatest and mightiest God, since the creation of the universe. And, that He would destroy Yakub's world and restore the original nation, or ancient nation, into power to rule forever.
...
Mr Yakub was, naturally, born out of the 30 per cent dissatisfied. As we know, wherever there is a longing or demand for a change, nature will produce that man, who will bring it about.
-----
At this point I would like to break from the discussion to question Joe: What was your original motivation in deliberately insulting my religious beliefs? (Nation of Islam isn't real Islam, they are racists)
I posted this thread to share the news of the London Mosque being raided, or as it turns out, having its door broken, by London police. I didn't originally post it to discuss my religious beliefs or black history, though both topics are certainly important to me. If Ceti Alpha, for example, posted a news story about an atheist organization being raided by police, I wouldn't respond to the post by insulting his atheist beliefs, no matter how I feel about them!
Also, I don't mean to avoid anyones questions or arguments here by any means. I am totally fine with continuing the discussion that has broken out.
I decided i dont know enough about this to continue. sorry if i hurt your feelings in any way rags. were all people and we all believe in different things. i think were all half alien and in 2012 they will come back and destroy us. we are who we are and whats awesome that we can put shit aside and be friends regardless of the outside world.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 27, 2010, 05:38:21 PM
rag-time4, Nation of Islam, Scientology and The Church of Latter Day Saints all upset me more than other, established religions. Believe me, even established religions disturb me greatly. Sometimes I just want to say "Listen to what you are actually saying!" All 3 religions were established by a single man who wanted power and/or money that results from such a thing (Elijah Muhammad, L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith, respectively). I am not meaning to insult you personally. If you were to attempt to insult atheism, I would not take it as a personal insult from you. I would counter your arguments, but I wouldn't think you had an agenda against me personally. However I am sure that police make stupid moves all over the place. If they would have busted in to a Jewish Synagogue instead under the same pretenses, would you have posted the story?
Nation of Islam seems to think that whites have a huge hard-on for ruling over blacks. Farakkhan has said some very controversial things that can easily be construed as racist. The NAACP jumps all over greeting cards that are not racist in any way and insist that they are. I know, they are not the same organization, but the point I am trying to make is that if a white man said the same exact things that Farrakhan said only about black people, believe you me everyone would be all up in his ass screaming "racist!" And they'd be right. Racism doesn't only work in one direction. As for Nation of Islam not being real Islam, that also is true. There are many differences (I can list them if you'd like). Ask any random Muslim if he (or she) believes that Allah came in the person of Wallace Fard aka The Dishonorable Elijah Muhammad. Just the same as Christians will not concur that Jesus Christ came and appeared before Joseph Smith in the USA. Though I should be careful about criticizing Fard/Elijah as I wouldn't want my house to be broken in to, 5 of my children, my 9-day-old grandson and a guest brutally murdered by members of the Nation o' Islam. Oh wait, that already happened to some guy named Khalifa Hamaas Abdul Khaalis.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: ceti alpha on July 28, 2010, 02:09:27 AM
Rags, I just figured that you were already familiar with my stance on religion. heh. And really I have no issue with religion until it starts spitting out racist, or other potentially harmful rhetoric in the guise of divine truth, and Islam is most certainly not the only religion guilty of this.
As for "atheism", it's a term I reluctantly accept. I just find it odd to identify myself to something I scarcely think about - my disbelief in god. It's not like I believe in my disbelief. And everyone is an "atheist" to one degree or another. Muhammad, Christ, Abraham were all atheists in regards to the Greek and Nordic gods, though if you read the first commandment you might come to a different conclusion - "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me...". What I take out of the first commandment is that god is saying "Yeah, there are these other gods out there, but don't listen to them. Only I speak the truth.", which is sketchy at best. So, I would find it weird to be part of some Atheist organization since, besides the disbelief in god, there is no other overarching atheistic belief system. In fact, a lot of these "new atheists" like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris just piss me off more than anything else. They use atheism to draw in readers and then spout anti-Islam/anti-Arab nonsense trying to justify the illegal occupation of Palestine and other areas in world.
Anyway, you know I don't mean anything personal against you. Now get crackin' on Rtype! *cracks whip* :P
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 28, 2010, 10:01:46 AM
I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions :D .
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 28, 2010, 10:37:18 AM
You must have many interesting conversations with yourself, Keranu. :)
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on July 28, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire) and Timbuktu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu). Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."
They were running around and being tribal. Battling, etc. I took two classes on the stuff, it happened. They weren't putting on suits, walking out of their homes and waving bye to the missus and trotting off to the office. They were running around stabbing shit with spears, etc.
"running around" is a stretch, yes. They were tribal, primitive... but organized and detailed in everything.
So my question is why'd they up and go LISTEN GUYS, WE NEED TO MAKE US A WHITE MAN TO CAPTURE US ON SOME BOATS AND MAKE US WORK IN FIELDS AND RAPE OUR WIMINS. Doesn't make much sense, especially since the reason for various skin colors is biological and based off where you live. Pale ass Europeans wouldn't fair too good basking in the African sun all day.
Also your book link contradicts the whole thing. Its about before the white man came and f*cked them all up. If that was them before the white man came, and they never went up to Europe-lands, how did the white man come down? This makes no sense. Did they gather in a circle and will a white man and his crew to appear from the shadows and enslave them!? It's like the stupid Terminator nonsense. How does John Connor send his dad back in time to make himself? He didn't. It makes no sense, and is wrong. Just like this black mans made the white mans thing.
Quote
Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....
As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....
Honorable for what? Being full of shit and annoying?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 28, 2010, 02:18:33 PM
The difference between black slaves and with you and I is that the slaves were captured and brought here against their will, while we as whites are more likely to have been descendant from immigrants.
Seeing as the black slaves were enslaved/sold to the white man by OTHER black people (usually a conquering tribe, etc.)...yet WHITEY IS THE DEVIL? As said before in this thread, racism goes both ways (and sometimes much worse from black to whites) the rhetoric has just gotten old.
I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions :D .
I thought you were an ardent follower of Islam as well? :-k
I am, but I believe all religions and beliefs share truths in one way or another. Personally I find this to be an aspect of Islam, even if it includes religions established after Muhammad. We're all in this bitch known as life together ;) .
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: guyjin on July 29, 2010, 05:31:46 AM
I am, but I believe all religions and beliefs share truths in one way or another. Personally I find this to be an aspect of Islam, even if it includes religions established after Muhammad. We're all in this bitch known as life together ;) .
From everything I know about Islam, that seems like the very opposite of it. But whatever makes you happy :)
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Senshi on July 29, 2010, 05:57:47 AM
I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions :D .
This sounds like flower child hippie crap. You have to at least pick and choose some portions of it because most of them contradict each other in some way (when they aren't contradicting themselves).
Along with what nectarsis said, people just generally treat people like shit no matter what race the other person is. The palastinians and jews are basically of the same origins as far as i'm concerned but they have been killing each other for the last X hundreds of year. Black people in Africa still kill each other. They don't stop because they're black. Maybe if everyone was taught to have a moral center and make decisions (instead of it being handed to them in a book) about right and wrong we wouldn't have all these religious morons telling people to kill in their gods name for economic gain and actually being successful at doing it. Organized religion is about control and agendas and always will be.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 29, 2010, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: guyjin
From everything I know about Islam, that seems like the very opposite of it. But whatever makes you happy
Does Islam not bring a sense of unity among people of Abrahamic faiths? Does Allah consider himself to be a separate deity from Judaism and Christianity? Does the Quran not refer to Jews and Christians as "People of the book"? Ask Muslims at your nearest mosque about how they feel about this issue. From my experience, Muslims embrace Jews and Christians as brothers and the mosque I attend holds regular cross religious discussions with nearby churches and synagogues. There's a lot more peace between religions than people take for granted.
This sounds like flower child hippie crap. You have to at least pick and choose some portions of it because most of them contradict each other in some way (when they aren't contradicting themselves).
I do not view religion as literally as you two do. Religion is free to everyone's own interpretation (for good or bad) and if someone like me that believes in a universal harmony between all people, species, and life, why would anyone want to criticize that? I'm promoting peace; should I be a terrorist instead?
I agree with Senshi that organized religion can (and has) been problematic, maybe because it inhibits followers from gathering their own interpretation. Religions generally start off with a good and peaceful cause -- in the case of Muhammad, he risked his life to spread a message that would eventually replace the cruel practices of Quraysh, who brutally owned slaves and buried female babies alive. It wasn't until literally after the death of the prophet that Islam would branch off into different sects, mostly for political reasons. What I'm getting at here is that religion isn't necessarily the problem as people taking advantage of it for their own greed and power are. I really don't believe religion is the primary cause behind Israel/Palestine, Ireland/England, and even North/south Nigeria, etc... Heck some of the biggest pro-Palestine advocates aren't even Muslims (Edward Said, Jimmy Carter, ceti_alpha :D ).
Everyone has a right to believe and practice what they want, no matter how unscientific or ridiculous it is. I've always admired the Mormons because no matter how hip it is to make fun of them, they have always been able to hold a cool and friendly attitude. Militant atheists convincing believers that their religion is wrong is just as dogmatic as Evangelical Christians proclaiming you're going to hell for not accepting Christ. As long as people aren't harming others, let them believe or disbelieve whatever they want. If we want peace we have to learn to accept differences and move on.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on July 29, 2010, 07:16:01 PM
Except that there ARE lots of people harming others in the name of religion.
I also do not believe in granting people special rights because of their culture or religion. For example, if a workplace has a certain uniform, someone from Islam should not be able to bypass it and wear the shit that they do (saw a K-Mart employee with lots of garb wrapped around her).
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: nodtveidt on July 29, 2010, 07:21:46 PM
Militant atheists convincing believers that their religion is wrong is just as dogmatic as Evangelical Christians proclaiming you're going to hell for not accepting Christ. As long as people aren't harming others, let them believe or disbelieve whatever they want. If we want peace we have to learn to accept differences and move on.
The problem with this is that the militant atheists are generally the correct ones... and whether or not people are harming each other has little to do with religion itself. Religion simply justifies one's harmful tendencies. But doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to live with the truth rather than ancient lies? The world would be a better place and we would all get along a hell of a lot better if the centuries of lies were cast off of the people.
When I see 16 year olds proclaiming all kinds of religious dogma on forums, it makes me sad to know that those people are the future of the human race...
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 29, 2010, 07:31:59 PM
Except that there ARE lots of people harming others in the name of religion.
Just because extremists harm others in the name of their religion doesn't make them an authority of religious interpretation. Do people really believe all or even most Muslims are terrorists?
Quote from: Joe
I also do not believe in granting people special rights because of their culture or religion. For example, if a workplace has a certain uniform, someone from Islam should not be able to bypass it and wear the shit that they do (saw a K-Mart employee with lots of garb wrapped around her).
I could agree with this to some degree. But if the person can still be just as easily recognized as an employee I don't see how it would be a problem to anyone.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on July 29, 2010, 07:58:00 PM
Militant atheists convincing believers that their religion is wrong is just as dogmatic as Evangelical Christians proclaiming you're going to hell for not accepting Christ. As long as people aren't harming others, let them believe or disbelieve whatever they want. If we want peace we have to learn to accept differences and move on.
The problem with this is that the militant atheists are generally the correct ones... and whether or not people are harming each other has little to do with religion itself. Religion simply justifies one's harmful tendencies. But doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to live with the truth rather than ancient lies? The world would be a better place and we would all get along a hell of a lot better if the centuries of lies were cast off of the people.
When I see 16 year olds proclaiming all kinds of religious dogma on forums, it makes me sad to know that those people are the future of the human race...
Nod you have to remember that religion is often a very spiritual experience for some believers. No matter how much science says this couldn't have happened or this isn't possible, it's meaningless to people who feel some kind of higher power in all of this mumbo-jumbo. Call it dogmatic if you'd like, but some people find peace when they take up religion. I've known people who used to live by the bottle and have troubled lives until they picked up a Bible and felt at peace going to church every Sunday. I know that sounds like some romantic idea from a film script, but as blasphemous as Christianity may be, I wouldn't dare try changing that person's beliefs because for whatever scientific (or unexplainable reason), it's what that person needs to help him through his life. Some need rehab, some need drugs, all people are different and unique.
Having a 100% atheist population won't prevent wars, neither if the whole world converted to Buddhism, Islam, or any other religion under the sun. I believe in secularism and as long as religion is separate from governmental power, I don't see anything wrong with it. Religion either clicks with an individual or it doesn't, no need for either side to fight over it :) .
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: ceti alpha on July 30, 2010, 02:00:46 AM
rag-time4, Nation of Islam, Scientology and The Church of Latter Day Saints all upset me more than other, established religions. Believe me, even established religions disturb me greatly. Sometimes I just want to say "Listen to what you are actually saying!" All 3 religions were established by a single man who wanted power and/or money that results from such a thing (Elijah Muhammad, L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith, respectively). I am not meaning to insult you personally. If you were to attempt to insult atheism, I would not take it as a personal insult from you. I would counter your arguments, but I wouldn't think you had an agenda against me personally. However I am sure that police make stupid moves all over the place. If they would have busted in to a Jewish Synagogue instead under the same pretenses, would you have posted the story?
Nation of Islam seems to think that whites have a huge hard-on for ruling over blacks. Farakkhan has said some very controversial things that can easily be construed as racist. The NAACP jumps all over greeting cards that are not racist in any way and insist that they are. I know, they are not the same organization, but the point I am trying to make is that if a white man said the same exact things that Farrakhan said only about black people, believe you me everyone would be all up in his ass screaming "racist!" And they'd be right. Racism doesn't only work in one direction. As for Nation of Islam not being real Islam, that also is true. There are many differences (I can list them if you'd like). Ask any random Muslim if he (or she) believes that Allah came in the person of Wallace Fard aka The Dishonorable Elijah Muhammad. Just the same as Christians will not concur that Jesus Christ came and appeared before Joseph Smith in the USA. Though I should be careful about criticizing Fard/Elijah as I wouldn't want my house to be broken in to, 5 of my children, my 9-day-old grandson and a guest brutally murdered by members of the Nation o' Islam. Oh wait, that already happened to some guy named Khalifa Hamaas Abdul Khaalis.
Joe, thank you very much for the response. I understand better where you're coming from, and I'll do my best to have thick skin as well as patience and good manners. Just a quick response to a few things you said here, then I want to backtrack a bit and respond to earlier posts...
Firstly, unlike white racist groups who believe that black people are genetically predisposed to inferiority, everything that we who follow the Honorable Elijah Muhammad believe about the white race has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with the actual process of how the white race came into being and what that led to culturally. Minister Farrakhan has said that he believes someday that white people will be allowed to join the Nation of Islam, and he has also commented on how we are capable of breaking free of our past (out of the potter's mold, I think is what he said, it's been a while but I still have the tape) and truly accepting Islam.
Secondly, Master Fard Muhammad and the Honorable Elijah Muhammad are two separate people.
Thirdly, thank you for bringing in the history of Khalifa Hamaas Abdul Khaalis. I had never heard of him before. However, after putting his name into google I found a TIME magazine article in which the author said that the Nation of Islam leadership denied having anything to do with the killing of his children (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946751,00.html). I believe that while members or former members of the Nation of Islam were guilty of the crimes, that the U.S. government likely had a role as well, as it was official policy to disrupt black organizations under J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO program.
Fourthly and finally, I may well have posted a story about a Jewish synagogue being busted into by police, had I found it, because it would be even more shocking (though no more acceptable) than police harrassment of the Nation of Islam. However, police terrorism, brutality, and harrassment is not to my knowledge a major issue for the Jewish community in western countries these days, though it certainly is for the black and the Muslim communities (with the Nation of Islam scoring a double whammy). When was the last time a Jewish synagogue was busted into by police, particularly on suspicion that the Jews inside were manufacturing/growing illegal drugs? One thing I would NEVER do, however, would be to respond to someone else, particularly someone of Jewish faith or heritage, who posted such a story by attacking his/her beliefs or heritage. You're atheist (right?) so I can understand why you might attack Judaism or Jewish people, but I think it would be bad form in a context of a news story of Jews being harrassed by police (or any other group that might target them)...
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Quote from: Black Tiger topic=8434.msg142541#msg142541
Quote from: rag-time4 on July 24, 2010, 12:04:39 AM How can you be considered "free" if you are bound to submit to someone else's legal system?
Because they are free to leave and choose any other society to live in. They're also free to vote to to change the "legal system" and/or anything else in the society they're currently in. They're also free to say anything they want. America and Canada are free countries and nobody's forcing you to stay. Whatever the law of the land is, at this point it is what it is, even though it's constantly evolving. The human world isn't perfect, but you don't get any "free-er" than having an equal say in your country and the freedom to come and go as you please. Even "if" the law of the land was inherently "racist" or prejudiced (in the States it kinda is with gay rights), no one has to submit to anything because they are free to go.
Tiger, on one hand, you (and Joe) are right... black people are free to do something for self. As the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said in his Saviour's Day address of 1974.... even if whites do things to hinder black people, he says, "The Earth is large".... When blacks were enslaved, they were certainly not free to do for self. However, does the ending of slavery end the responsibility of the enslaver?
As the Honorable Elijah Muhammad wrote, in Message to the Blackman, p.227 (text bolded):
During the time of the Emancipation Proclamation we were scattered to the winds without any knowledge or ability to undertake the responsibilities of a half freedom. Our fathers, lacking the skills and the training needed to provide themselves, were forced to remain with the masters in order to receive even the barest necessities of life.
Our former slave-masters, knowing of our dependence upon them, maliciously and hatefully adopted attitudes and social and educational systems that have deprived us of the opportunity to become free and independent right up to the present day.
But we, the black slaves of this soil of bondage, were not deprived of the freedom to fight in America's wars, but we are deprived of the right to fight for our own freedom.
You cannot deny that even after the ratification of the thirteenth amendment, black people were not universally free to vote in the U.S. and thereby influence society in their own interest. Black people in the south were forced to attend second-class segregated schools, and to this very day there is a problem of de-facto racial segregation in education. Black people have often been discriminated against in terms of housing, and were not allowed to live in some neighborhoods. Additionally, the most well known advocate of black repatriation to Africa, Marcus Garvey, was subject to U.S. government harrassment and ultimately imprisonment and deportation... and his efforts to develop Liberia were suppressed by British interests there. The struggle for social, economic, and political equality is still ongoing.
Perhaps even more important are issues of national / cultural identity of the slaves and their descendants.
As the Honorable Elijah Muhammad writes on pages 44-45 (text bolded):
After blinding them to the knowledge of self and their own kind for 400 years, the slave-masters refuse to civilize the so-called Negroes into the knowledge of themselves of which they were robbed. The slave-masters also persecute and hinder anyone who tries to perform this most rightful duty.
I will continue to say that as long as the so-called Negroes do not know who they really are and do not have the knowledge to free themselves from their slave-masters' names and religion, they cannot be considered free or civilized.
As it was with Daniel in the Bible, the black slaves were stripped of their own names and given European names, with surnames of their owners. You may argue, and you would be correct to do so, that black people are free to drop their European names and adopt new ones. However, what has America done to encourage black people to do so? It took a Messenger from God Himself to make it happen, because the former enslavers did not make any effort to restore the stolen identity of black people.
Therefore, the thirteenth amendment did not give the former slaves true freedom, because they did not suddenly gain the werewithal to build a nation of their own and do for self as any free people should do. We who follow the Honorable Elijah Muhammad believe that God Himself has come to give black people a true knowledge of self (self identity based on truth), which will position black people to reach their true potential.
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And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.
When you blame the actions of a single person on an entire race, whether or not that single person was motivated by racism them self, you are being truly racist. Especially when it comes to the wide range of enthicities that fall under the banner of "white".
That kind of police brutality happens regularly in Canada and society in general condemns it. A man in this Province was arrested for drinking a beer outside a hockey rink and in the jail cell block at the local police station while unarmed and face down, an officer shot him in the back of the head. Is that an indication of the lack of true freedom that [insert race of choice] has in our society?
As long as a person is lost in a skewed world view that pits specific races against each other, they'll never be free of the racist society of their own creation.
I'm not blaming the actions of the BART police officer on an entire race, and I agree with your first point here. Blaming his actions on racist undercurrents in society, however, is another matter entirely.
Yes, I think that a police killing like the one you described does indicate the lack of true freedom of [insert race of choice] has in society. If people of all races are regularly subject to police brutality, we need to unite and get our police forces under control. If certain groups suffer police brutality more than others, as black people do here in the U.S., we should be able to listen to and seriously address their grievances, without accusing them of being racist or divisive for speaking out against police brutality.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on August 03, 2010, 09:02:09 PM
All the slave masters and slaves in the United States are dead. Have been for a while. Yes, it took a long time for blacks to get all of their rights and freedoms. No one can or should deny that. The nation was primitive and still is in many ways. Primitive people fear change and therefore it takes a while to happen. Like they said in The Honorable Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country; "If there is to be a brave, new world, our generation will have the hardest time living in it." Because of exactly that, change must be made in small steps. It is also for this very reason that people still believe in religions. They don't know any better and you simply cannot ask a believer to stop believing what he has believed since his childhood or whatnot. It will take a long time, but eventually religion will go away for the most part. Sure, you can say that would make for a much less desirable world to live in, but people said the same thing about blacks and women being able to vote only a few generations ago.
On that thought, why don't I ever see or hear about any female Nation of Islam members?
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: ceti alpha on August 04, 2010, 04:46:48 AM
Like they said in The Honorable Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country; "If there is to be a brave, new world, our generation will have the hardest time living in it." Because of exactly that, change must be made in small steps. It is also for this very reason that people still believe in religions.
Klingons have the best quotes. lol
As for the last time a Jewish synagogue got raided, I wouldn't know, but I remember several years back a couple members of the Jewish Defense League got charged and arrested for conspiracy. But they're a bunch of nut-bar terrorists.
This sounds like flower child hippie crap. You have to at least pick and choose some portions of it because most of them contradict each other in some way (when they aren't contradicting themselves).
The correct term is Pantheism, and It's quite legitimate according to theologians.
Hiduism is by nature pantheistic, absorbing and assimilating aspects of the other major religions as well as the local animistic religions (in East Asia, i.e. the Buddha Sakyamuni is the 9th avatar of the God Vishnu), In Northern India; Jainism (The concept of Ahimsa; Truthfullness and a basis of Business ethics, as the Jains were and are very respected merchants due to their vows of truthfulness, and their inability to hold Agriculture jobs) In China, India and Tibet, aspects of Theravadha and Mahayana Buddhism were incorporated in the early part of the first Julian Millennium (structure, tradtions, paintings, etc), and in Japan and China respectively, although much less due to the proximity and it's relatively late entrance onto the religions scene Renzai-Zen and Soto-Zen Buddhism influenced the inter-relations of the family unit (discipline, honor, and a vow of fealty to one's elders). All of these things, in one aspect or another are amalgamated into the evolving Hindu religion, which has actually stagnated in the last 500 years. The fact that there are several sets of holy books that take place in separate areas across Asia (The Vedas, The Forest Books, The Upanishads, and the later epics), tells me that's Exactly what they are doing. Taking what they like, using what works at the time, and leaving the rest behind.
I guess, by your logic, The Hindu's were the original flower children, which would explain the thousands-strong western Hippie communes in Goa India. So you're not entirely wrong, your delivery was just abrasive. Whether or not it's crap, I'll let you take that up with one of Vishnu's followers :mrgreen:
I'll leave you all with this: My 2 cents.
http://xkcd.com/774/
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Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Arkhan on August 04, 2010, 07:19:55 PM
I pray at the Church of Arkhan.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Keranu on August 04, 2010, 07:28:35 PM
Militant atheists convincing believers that their religion is wrong is just as dogmatic as Evangelical Christians proclaiming you're going to hell for not accepting Christ. As long as people aren't harming others, let them believe or disbelieve whatever they want. If we want peace we have to learn to accept differences and move on.
The problem with this is that the militant atheists are generally the correct ones... and whether or not people are harming each other has little to do with religion itself. Religion simply justifies one's harmful tendencies. But doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to live with the truth rather than ancient lies? The world would be a better place and we would all get along a hell of a lot better if the centuries of lies were cast off of the people.
When I see 16 year olds proclaiming all kinds of religious dogma on forums, it makes me sad to know that those people are the future of the human race...
you yourself have not the experience nor the study to develop a true judgement that religion is nothing but "ancient lies". we as individual human beings on this planet interpret things differently and therefore cannot and SHOULD NOT say that what is very real to someone who claims to have experienced it, is in fact a fantasy or a creation of someone from the past who's original intent was to implement an idea to gain a sort of control over people in some way, shape or form. it's a tired and lazy redundant theme amongst all atheists these days. yes while it is true that religion has served as the backdrop for wars and other violent acts, just as many non-religious reasons can be given for such things, such as greed or political gain. calling religion in and of itself "ancient lies" means that you are claiming to have some sort of proof that you can show me and others that will definitively convince without the shadow of any doubt that Jesus Christ was not the son of the one true God and The Messiah foretold of in hebrew prophecy. if you have such proof, then lay it on me... please. and just so you know, i don't deal in hypotheticals, only facts. and no, my proof isn't limited to what The Bible, a book that was hacked to pieces by the roman catholic church, says about it. i'm sorry if you yourself have never experience any kind of religious experience... i myself have, it didn't come from a sappy sermon, or a screaming pastor, it wasn't forced apon me in any way by any person. it was real... and it was enough to convince me until the day i die that there is a God, and Jesus was his son. ...and i'm a hard motherf*cker to convince. trust me.
let the Christian bashing begin.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on August 04, 2010, 10:16:33 PM
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calling religion in and of itself "ancient lies" means that you are claiming to have some sort of proof that you can show me and others that will definitively convince without the shadow of any doubt that Jesus Christ was not the son of the one true God and The Messiah foretold of in hebrew prophecy.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Iron Cuban on August 05, 2010, 03:44:47 AM
calling religion in and of itself "ancient lies" means that you are claiming to have some sort of proof that you can show me and others that will definitively convince without the shadow of any doubt that Jesus Christ was not the son of the one true God and The Messiah foretold of in hebrew prophecy.
yes but evidence in the spiritual sense can only be obtained by those who will openly receive it.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on August 05, 2010, 06:26:11 AM
#1 - Please learn how to properly use the quote function
#2 - Do you realize what you are saying? Basically that there are no hard facts to back you up. It's kind of funny that God and whatnot would be so good at hiding, not making himself and his bastard son (acquired by rape) known for fact... only available to those who believe. God's marketing sucks ass!
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: ceti alpha on August 05, 2010, 09:40:10 AM
calling religion in and of itself "ancient lies" means that you are claiming to have some sort of proof that you can show me and others that will definitively convince without the shadow of any doubt that Jesus Christ was not the son of the one true God and The Messiah foretold of in hebrew prophecy.
The burden of proof isn't on non-believers. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If I claim that I have an invisible gnome that lives behind my toilet then I shouldn't be surprised when people say "prove it". But it's certainly not up to the people that don't believe me to prove that there isn't an invisible gnome behind my toilet.
On that note, Intelligent Design/Creationism should not, in any way, shape or form, be taught in schools. There is absolutely no proof of ID, and in the end what does ID really tell us? We're still left with the same primary question - Who created god? In fact, ID only complicates things.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Rockabilly Paradise on August 05, 2010, 05:27:10 PM
#1 - Please learn how to properly use the quote function
#2 - Do you realize what you are saying? Basically that there are no hard facts to back you up. It's kind of funny that God and whatnot would be so good at hiding, not making himself and his bastard son (acquired by rape) known for fact... only available to those who believe. God's marketing sucks ass!
insulting myself and my religion, or any religion for that matter in no way makes you look like your position as a moderator is well deserved. i stand by my original response, which i mistakenly put in the quote box... "evidence in the spiritual sense can only be obtained by those who will openly receive it." you are entitled to your opinion, however sophomoric you choose to state it.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on August 05, 2010, 07:19:31 PM
Sophomoric or not, it's true. God did not get Mary's consent. God did not marry Mary. I have my own theories of what probably happened, but they are irrelevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Rockabilly Paradise on August 06, 2010, 08:23:32 AM
Sophomoric or not, it's true. God did not get Mary's consent. God did not marry Mary. I have my own theories of what probably happened, but they are irrelevant to the discussion.
actually you are entirely incorrect.
‘The angel went to her and said; "Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you". Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; his kingdom will never end." "How will this be," Mary asked, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered, "MAY IT HAPPEN TO ME AS YOU HAVE SAID." Then the angel left her.’ (Luke 1:28-38)
"May it happen to me as you have said."
sounds like consent to me. if your going to knock the sriptures, at least be well read enough to do it intelligently. i'm not quoting any more scriptures or going any further with this topic. just wanted to illustrate how you should study or examine something closely before you choose to knock it or make fun of it and talk as if you know anything about it.
Title: Re: London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!
Post by: Joe Redifer on August 06, 2010, 02:08:42 PM
I think that is open for debate. They were just telling Mary "this is how it's gonna be and this is how you will handle it". There was no opting out. I think if some crazy thing with lots of power that you don't understand says "You will do this" you are probably not going to object, kind of like if a guy pointing a gun to your face says "Take off your pants and shake it for me" you probably will. She said the right things to get the freaky, unnatural thing to leave her alone, after all. :)