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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Console Chat => Topic started by: Arkhan on October 05, 2010, 05:51:50 PM
Title: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 05, 2010, 05:51:50 PM
I keep seeing more and more people ragging on the MSX line of computers, saying the games scroll like shit and are garbage because of it.
Has anyone else played around with MSX? Any other "Its not really terrible" people around?
Heres some games I play alot... anyone else got any they're fond of?
Gall Force
Star Soldier
Gulkave
Penguin Adventure
Metal Gear
nemesis 3 (Uses SCC which sounds like a PCE)
Psycho World:
Other games I didn't feel like linking videos for:
Fray in Magical Adventure (Better delivery of the story over the PCE CD one) Hydlide 1,2 and 3 Borfesu Crimson Golvellius 1 and 2 Emerald Dragon Seed of Dragon Tir Na Nog Illiusion City (OMG amazing)
I can't be the only person who likes the MSX around here.
Hell, Hudson made BeeCards for it and they're basically HuCards.. :)
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Tatsujin on October 05, 2010, 06:45:55 PM
I dig the MSX quite a lot, also in generally I like its games, but I agree that the choppy scrolling of some of the MSX1 games can be a killer factor for some peeps. Especially when you can get the almost same game on an other platform but with smooth scrolling (e.g. star soldier).
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 05, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
One of the things i've noticed is alot of people just see a video of a game, note the choppy scrolling, and then refuse to play it, thus missing out on a ton of great games.
Or they listen to the complaining of other forum members and never give it a fair shot. Nemesis II is one of the big ones. The first time I beat Nemesis II, it was for MSX. It's perfectly playable. :)
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: ccovell on October 06, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
Better than a PCE, actually. Despite it being mono, having only 5 channels instead of 6, and having wave tables for only 4 of the channels instead of all 6 on the PCE, the SCC chip uses a full byte for each sample, making voices sound quite a bit richer and bass much fuller than the PCE.
Amazing music and artwork... but not once it gets moving. 8-pixel block-at-a-time scrolling and small windows do not make for an engrossing experience. Even the Sega CD version which I have has the same tiny window and horrible scrolling.
I have played plenty of Konami's MSX shooters, both in emus and on the Saturn, even finishing a couple of them. The scrolling (and to a point, colourless sprites) didn't, well, ruin the experience, but they came close, even causing a few ship crashes because of the sudden updates.
Look, I gave MSX games a shot, with Metal Gear and Dracula years ago, and other shooters and RPGs recently. No matter how talented the artists and musicians for a game were, the hardware was constantly letting them down and undermining their efforts. It was ineptly engineered, and upgrades came too little too late. So for me, and maybe others, the MSX will always be an awkward experience, an odd system out. It's not technologically primitive enough to be beloved like the Atari 2600 and Spectrum, and it's not advanced enough for NES, PCE Amiga, etc guys to want to pay it any notice. At least that's how I feel about the MSX.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Dalder on October 06, 2010, 05:05:45 AM
I love and admire my MSX stuff too. I have MSX 1 by Sony and MSX 2 by Panasonic but I need the disk drive etc. And I own about 10 Game Cartridges but I am always on the look out for more games for it but it can be hard to find and expensive ! I do appreciate the MSX myself many good Konami games on it. One day I would like to get Blue Chip MSX myself...
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 06, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
Better than a PCE, actually. Despite it being mono, having only 5 channels instead of 6, and having wave tables for only 4 of the channels instead of all 6 on the PCE, the SCC chip uses a full byte for each sample, making voices sound quite a bit richer and bass much fuller than the PCE.
Its debatable. Not having stereo panning abilities is something alot of MSX people envy about the PCE. That and the sampling isn't quite there. Though you've also got the PSG to work with for some nice drums. Slap in some FM, and you have yourself some holy-awesome music possiblities.
Since Konami was the only one commercially making SCC music, it always kicked ass in games. Metal Gear 2 is some legendary music, and the reworked Knightmare SCC stuff is extremely badass.
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Amazing music and artwork... but not once it gets moving. 8-pixel block-at-a-time scrolling and small windows do not make for an engrossing experience. Even the Sega CD version which I have has the same tiny window and horrible scrolling.
The same "horrible" scrolling is present in Fray, Xak and basically every hit RPG on the MSX2. They're often blitting anyways, and not using tile modes, so the scrolling was done like it was done for ease-of-coding. You could do it smoother, and some games do. There was no hardware setback involved. Its all blits. software sprites.
I don't understand really. The PC88 had similar scrolling. The games were all pretty good and well liked. Even western DOS rpgs were tile scrolling. Ultima and the like. They weren't smooth. Some stretches of Ultima are disorienting because you can't tell if you're even moving anymore, but they're still good stuff.
Is it a "grew up playing consoles" thing that makes the herky scrolling put you off? I'm curious. The delivery of the story in Xak and Fray is better done on the MSX despite it not being as nice graphically, so does the scrolling of the MSX one really kill that?
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I have played plenty of Konami's MSX shooters, both in emus and on the Saturn, even finishing a couple of them. The scrolling (and to a point, colourless sprites) didn't, well, ruin the experience, but they came close, even causing a few ship crashes because of the sudden updates.
Did you try Space Manbow? not konami related---> or Androgynous? Aleste 1 and 2, even Xevious? Laydock? Undeadline! Plenty of smooth-scrolling stuff.
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upgrades came too little too late.
What upgrades? It went from MSX--->MSX2 (with backwards compatibility)---> MSX2+ (backwards compatible). all in a relatively short time-frame.
That was it. The only "upgrades" are the Moonsound (epic sound cart), GFX9000 (not important), and FM carts incase you didn't have it built in...
There wasn't much too-lateness about the hardware progression.
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So for me, and maybe others, the MSX will always be an awkward experience, an odd system out. It's not technologically primitive enough to be beloved like the Atari 2600 and Spectrum, and it's not advanced enough for NES, PCE Amiga, etc guys to want to pay it any notice. At least that's how I feel about the MSX.
Odd system outs a bit of a stretch isn't it? Considering the things that were started on MSX and the widespread success of it in various countries?
and once you break into the MSX2 realm, the things a tad more advanced than an NES....
and lets not forget how shitty the NES metal gear was compared to the MSX one.
not as advanced as an Amiga (Even though the advanced hardware for Amiga didn't always lead to better games...), or PCE....
I guess I consider myself an MSX/PCE/NES/Genesis guy
I love and admire my MSX stuff too. I have MSX 1 by Sony and MSX 2 by Panasonic but I need the disk drive etc. And I own about 10 Game Cartridges but I am always on the look out for more games for it but it can be hard to find and expensive ! I do appreciate the MSX myself many good Konami games on it. One day I would like to get Blue Chip MSX myself...
Have you considered a NoWind interface or a CF IDE? They function like giant disk drives. A bit more feasible than the OneChipMSX
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 06, 2010, 08:21:03 PM
There's a Gall Force game? And its a shooter?
Is that on cart or floppy?
I actually know a guy near me with an MSX (not sure which one) but I've never seen it run. He has a truck load of great condition 8/16-bit computers. He even has a working Mac II FX.
Does anyone here have one of those MSX cart-only systems? The ones made of clear blue plastic? That looked like it was going to be my introduction to MSX but they got hard to find pretty quick.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 06, 2010, 08:40:01 PM
Cart. It's MSX1, pre floppy games. and not a tape game. Tapes are silly. Its a really great game too.
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Does anyone here have one of those MSX cart-only systems? The ones made of clear blue plastic? That looked like it was going to be my introduction to MSX but they got hard to find pretty quick.
Theyre junk. Theres a few nice features, like the card reader, but... For the same price you could get real hardware and an SCC flashcart and either a NoWind interface, or a Sunrise CF interface....
Those OneChipMSX (cart system) are nuts. They're out of production too. I dont recommend wasting your cash on one.
Oh duh. You probably have NFI what im talking about!
SCC Flashcart: Contains the Konami SCC so you can have the nice music. And has 1mb rom that you can write games to and play. It requires an MSX with a FDD though. :-/ NoWind: Hook the cart to the PC's USB port and use it as a giant floppy drive ^^^ Might work with the SCC. I never tried. CF: Basically a FDD replacement. Compact flash, yay.
The fdd replacements might work with the SCC. I should find out. I'd imagine it should. All you'd have to do is make a .dsk image on WIndows w/ the game you want to burn, and the utility program.
heres two homebrew games that are pretty damn goodlike.
among others. (Manbow 2)
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Mathius on October 07, 2010, 05:17:37 AM
Every article I have ever read on the MSX has mentioned the choppy scrolling. That's always been a real turnoff for me. The Sharp X68000 seems a lot more interesting IMO.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 07, 2010, 05:52:36 AM
Every article I have ever read on the MSX has mentioned the choppy scrolling. That's always been a real turnoff for me. The Sharp X68000 seems a lot more interesting IMO.
Yeah, but what alot of people forget is that it predates the NES, 68000, and stuff. The 68000 is 16-bit, and home consoles were made JUST for games. The MSX was a full-fledged computer on top of game capabilities.
The thing is old. 1983 old. Every computer from that timeframe has some hardware derpage going on. The MSX1 itself has alot of really solid arcade ports despite the hardware scroll problems. Exerion, Buck Rogers Planet Zoom, Galaga. Good stuff. The scrolling was overcome eventually anyways. Golvellius scrolls fine.
The Spectrum is only a year older, and its got problems. Its ass ugly. The games are still pretty playable despite being an eye-damaging event. More playable than the nice, colorful, though lower-res C64 counterparts.
The C64 is a year older as well, and the VIC-II has one of the fugliest color palettes ever. Drab-city. The arcade ports on the C64 almost always suck due to the VIC's resolution. Double Dragon, Sidearms..... holy christ. Who cares if they scroll nice, they look awful. Scrolling doesn't automagically make the game great. Contra on C64 vs. Contra on MSX2, its kind of a nobrainer, and the MSX2 one screen flips, instead of scrolling.
I plan to make videos of MSX games soon. The system itself isn't super-well documented for a few reasons and alot of the games fall by the wayside and people are missing out.
plus, you can play f*ckin Colecovision games on them.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Mathius on October 07, 2010, 06:15:26 AM
I'll be interested to see your videos. :) I'd like to see how Golvellius stacks up against the Master System version.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: SignOfZeta on October 07, 2010, 06:47:52 AM
As an American, I never understood the appeal of the Spectrum. The thing seems to just outright suck compared to pretty much anything. I guess you had to be there.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 07, 2010, 07:41:51 AM
I'll be interested to see your videos. :) I'd like to see how Golvellius stacks up against the Master System version.
Everyone knocks the MSX scrolling, but the SMS game scrolls your status information with the frigging map. How ghetto-fab is that, lol.
I plan to mostly diddle around with MSX1 games for the videos. I have to get it to save videos good first.
Quote from: SignOfZeta
As an American, I never understood the appeal of the Spectrum. The thing seems to just outright suck compared to pretty much anything. I guess you had to be there
Well, we didn't get the MSX officially in NA either (We got a Yamaha CX5M in Canada, it was OK but mostly for music).
The thing about the Spectrum or the C64 is, you got one or the other, and loved it to death. Now you have all them people 25 years later, bitching at each other on forums about which is better.
They both blow, IMO. Spectrum was an eyesore and had no RPGs, C64 was drab and all the arcade ports were a disaster. C64 had a great RPG library, and most of the exclusive games were pretty legit. Anything that was a port was a frigging shitheap.
At the time I could see why the C64 did so well. It was pretty cost-effective and had alot to offer.
but nowadays, the DOS versions load lightning fast and DOSBox takes care of everything. No need to emulate the C64 w/ 4 double sided disks for the same game experience... -_-
Whats funny is there is an Ultima III (Like the NES one) and an Ultima IV (like DOS one) for MSX2. They're both awfully good, and Final Fantasy for MSX2, despite the scrolling, has such bamf music that it's worth playing there instead of NES.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on October 07, 2010, 10:20:37 AM
the only MSX I've played is BlueMSX emu on PC- and I've had a blast playing Castlevania so far!! It's historic and classic, what's not to like?
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: td741 on October 07, 2010, 10:43:18 AM
Well, we didn't get the MSX officially in NA either (We got a Yamaha CX5M in Canada, it was OK but mostly for music).
Although I can't say that it was an MSX standard system, the specs for the NABU network machines here in Ottawa seem to be close to the original MSX specs.
NABU Network is a computer system that had games/other software/newsletters available on cable (similar to SEGA Network) but back in 1983. There was some good games for it at the time, but the company went under shortly after...
See http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/research/NABU.htm and wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NABU_Network
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on October 07, 2010, 05:34:20 PM
Castlevania on MSX2 is excellent. The adventure aspect that it has is something I dislike not having in the NES one. It came back in Simons Quest, sort of.
I really like basically everything Konami put out for the MSX. Penguin Adventure is such a fun game, and Metal Gear. Metal Gear you can just tell how groundbreaking it was by playing it.
SD Snatcher is another one. and Snatcher itself!
that NABU network sounds interesting. Too bad I missed out on that
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: SuperDeadite on January 23, 2011, 04:45:20 PM
MSX2 can scroll quite smoothly when used right 8)
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: esteban on January 24, 2011, 06:55:10 PM
The thing about the Spectrum or the C64 is, you got one or the other, and loved it to death. Now you have all them people 25 years later, bitching at each other on forums about which is better.
They both blow, IMO. Spectrum was an eyesore and had no RPGs, C64 was drab and all the arcade ports were a disaster. C64 had a great RPG library, and most of the exclusive games were pretty legit. Anything that was a port was a frigging shitheap.
At the time I could see why the C64 did so well. It was pretty cost-effective and had alot to offer.
but nowadays, the DOS versions load lightning fast and DOSBox takes care of everything. No need to emulate the C64 w/ 4 double sided disks for the same game experience... -_-
I am not anti-MSX, but I will defend C-64. :) Not that C-64 needs defending...
ON GAMES: I find it odd that you so readily dismiss C-64 when you acknowledge the decent stable of software. The library of games is C-64's strength. So many wonderful, at times eccentric, titles. That is why I love it, still, today. I am discovering new titles that I never had a chance to play back in the day.
ON MUSIC: Oh, well, of course I love all the SID tunes... again, it's the vast array of great music that keeps me returning. Now, C6-4 did not emit anything as warm/smooth/polished/sophisticated as PCE's PSG, but SID's are just as intoxicating.
Anyway, the C-64 is quite playable today (real hardware), IMO :)
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Mathius on January 24, 2011, 07:10:51 PM
I never had a C64 when I was young, but my cousin did. There was one game in particular that fascinated me. I can't remember the name, but it was a side-scrolling adventure game. The main character seemed to be a guy in his pajamas walking around a house at night. The coolest part that I remember was he eventually found his way to a rocket that took him to outer space. Anybody know what game I am talking about? I would love to play it again! :D
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on January 25, 2011, 02:54:39 AM
I got no idea what game you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Was it Maniac Mansion style?
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: nodtveidt on January 25, 2011, 03:34:50 AM
I got my start on the C64 and that's where I had my first commercial release. Never had an MSX. Of course, I know of Arkhan's tendency to diss that which isn't aligned with him ;) but what he really hates, aside from the 6502-based processor (the Z80 is arguably a better CPU architecture), is the community of assnuggets that the C64 scene has.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on January 25, 2011, 03:39:58 AM
I got my start on the C64 and that's where I had my first commercial release. Never had an MSX. Of course, I know of Arkhan's tendency to diss that which isn't aligned with him ;) but what he really hates, aside from the 6502-based processor (the Z80 is arguably a better CPU architecture), is the community of assnuggets that the C64 scene has.
the c64 was my start. The community is bad enough to destroy my like machine,
He says, while playing Gateway to Apshai on it, lol.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Mathius on January 25, 2011, 04:47:53 AM
I got no idea what game you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Was it Maniac Mansion style?
Sort of, but it wasn't point and click style. I don't think it was anyway. It's been 25 years since I played it. I remember that it had an awesome sense of atmosphere. Just amazing.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: esteban on January 25, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
I got no idea what game you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Was it Maniac Mansion style?
Sort of, but it wasn't point and click style. I don't think it was anyway. It's been 25 years since I played it. I remember that it had an awesome sense of atmosphere. Just amazing.
I don't think I have played the game you are trying to identify. However, if you go over to the Lemon64 forums and inquire, I'm sure someone will be able to help you out.
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Mathius on January 25, 2011, 04:30:17 PM
I got no idea what game you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Was it Maniac Mansion style?
Sort of, but it wasn't point and click style. I don't think it was anyway. It's been 25 years since I played it. I remember that it had an awesome sense of atmosphere. Just amazing.
I don't think I have played the game you are trying to identify. However, if you go over to the Lemon64 forums and inquire, I'm sure someone will be able to help you out.
Schweet! Thank you good sir. :D
Title: Re: The MSX computer
Post by: Arkhan on January 25, 2011, 11:59:53 PM
I got no idea what game you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.
Was it Maniac Mansion style?
Sort of, but it wasn't point and click style. I don't think it was anyway. It's been 25 years since I played it. I remember that it had an awesome sense of atmosphere. Just amazing.
I don't think I have played the game you are trying to identify. However, if you go over to the Lemon64 forums and inquire, I'm sure someone will be able to help you out.
Schweet! Thank you good sir. :D
Good luck. Lemon64 is a clusterf*ck. :) Watch out for the douchebags.