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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG/PCE Repair/Mod Discussion => Topic started by: chriscomputers on January 03, 2011, 07:33:19 AM
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I have a PC engine CD (original white) drive that works great but in the first 5 minutes of use loads very slowly. After this time period I can restart the same game and it reads very fast like new. I have tried adjusting the CD lens gain and the other various potentiometers on the board with no luck solving this warm up issue. Has anyone had any experience with this? Is this maybe some of the caps on the board going bad? I do have experience soldering but I have no idea which capacitors to change. Just trying to avoid changing all of them. Any ideas anyone?
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I have an American TG16 CD unit that takes 15 minutes to warm up.
We haven't isolated the issue as of yet, but this has been discussed in the repair threads. BlueBMW and chop5 both had the unit apart, and were working on figuring out the issue. I'm hesitant to open it back up because it's working currently with the anticipated warm-up, and that's good enough for me just to play games.
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This brings us to about six different units afflicted by this warm up plague... I've tried everything I know to do. :cry:
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I've noticed mine loading slowly sometimes if I just start it up and start playing.
The first thing that sprang to my mind was a capcitor as well, with the warm up or charging period, though I'm not sure that would be the case with these units.
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also, one more thing i noticed is that if i try to use the drive seperately say just for audio. It will not read anything if i use the standard pcengine cd 9v ac adapter. I have to use a normal 10v turbografx system ac adapter for it to work this way. maybe whatever takes in the voltage is starting to give out?
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On the units that I've had that have this issue, I have tried replacing all the capacitors as well as the BA driver chips. I am lead to believe that its a RAM chip issue or a microfracture issue of solder (that once warmed up corrects itself)
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Beamer, I was curious if you ever got to try "preheating" the unit on something like an electric blanket to isolate if it's actually a temperature thing or if it is something completely different.
I was thinking that if you warm the CD up first on something else, then plug it into the base, if it starts instantly, then something is probably happening that is purely temperature related.
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Hmmmm that's a good point henry. Ill give that a try!
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My white CD-ROM^2 connected to my SuperGrafx has this issue. The symptoms are nearly identical to what the OP describes. It started happening after I replaced the laser in the unit-- not sure if it's related or coincidence. I haven't really looked into it since everything is 100% after five minutes or less.
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Hi, I joined this board to specifically ask about this problem. I have a tg-16 cd add on that I purchased new. It was from the first $400 batch they made. I rarely used the thing and it has been stored in the case. I pulled it out a few months back and tried to start it. Nothing. I left it on and when I came back it was running. So, now when I play I have to wait for it to warm up. If I plug the ac into the disc unit directly it seems to heat up quicker. It's like some glue inside needs to heat up for wires to make contact. BTW, the unit was never dropped or EVER opened since the factory. Which is why I find this strange. From what I'm reading nobody can pinpoint why this is? :-k
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Stay tuned... I may be on the verge of solving this issue... one more round of tests tomorrow night will hopefully yield an answer.
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Stay tuned... I may be on the verge of solving this issue... one more round of tests tomorrow night will hopefully yield an answer.
Thats good to hear, since I may have this issue. I replaced the laser a while ago in my black unit and tried to play a game on it the other day and nothing. I may let it sit for a while to warm up to see if it starts to work again. I could not have possibly burnt out the new laser that quick. Probably less than 100 hours use on the laser.
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10-to-1 you've been hit with the "warm-up stick."
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Just got a PCE CD off eBay that's having this problem. Registered to add my name to the list of people interested in a fix.
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Running some tests right now! Should have an answer one way or another as to whether or not I've solved this!
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Ok, after numerous tests I believe chop5 and I have narrowed this issue down to a few components.
I'll do a complete write up of the whole investigation later. I still have a few more tests to do to try and narrow it down to one single component. I need volunteers who have an issue exhibiting warm up symtoms! I have a hypothesis that I need more data on to confirm.
I believe that the warm up issue originates in either the laser sled motor seizing up, or the middle gear becoming slightly damaged / deformed causing the sled gear train to lock up. Or it could be both of these issues. I have pretty much 100% confirmed this is NOT a motherboard issue though!
Anyone who wants to help out and has a warm up troubled unit, do me a favor... when it turns on but doesn't spin... pop it open and just touch the gear on the end of the laser sled motor to turn it just a bit (break it free perhaps) and then try running the unit again and see if it fires right up or not.
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Can u guys run it with the lid open? That might help alot.
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Can u guys run it with the lid open? That might help alot.
To access the gear, one would have to remove the bottom shell and the one screw that secures the mainboard to the top shell. Then you can carefully move the motherboard down a bit to access the internals. These tests would have to be done with the unit outside an IFU and connected to a power supply by itself.
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I have been adjusting the laser on mine and it isn't looking to good for testing purposes. I am not too sure about the sled gear theory though, since the cd would not spin with that happening. I have a white unit that has that problem and I just need to free it up before using when it sits for a while. Easiest way to see if that is occurring is the cd tries to spin, but doesn't actually move. You can see it twitch through the window.
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It seemed like the unit does this sequence..
Move sled to inner stop.
Activate laser to detect presence of disc.
When disc is found, start spindle
Move sled to read toc
I don't know if this is for sure but its just what I think is happening.
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Ok, my problem was the laser... The diode still looks good and it focuses, but I had repaired the ribbon cable on it and think that is the issue. I put an old "bad" laser back in and after adjusting it, got it working. Sorry I wont be able to help with the the problem here, as I guess I dont have the warm up issue.
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Ok, after numerous tests I believe chop5 and I have narrowed this issue down to a few components.
I'll do a complete write up of the whole investigation later. I still have a few more tests to do to try and narrow it down to one single component. I need volunteers who have an issue exhibiting warm up symtoms! I have a hypothesis that I need more data on to confirm.
I believe that the warm up issue originates in either the laser sled motor seizing up, or the middle gear becoming slightly damaged / deformed causing the sled gear train to lock up. Or it could be both of these issues. I have pretty much 100% confirmed this is NOT a motherboard issue though!
Anyone who wants to help out and has a warm up troubled unit, do me a favor... when it turns on but doesn't spin... pop it open and just touch the gear on the end of the laser sled motor to turn it just a bit (break it free perhaps) and then try running the unit again and see if it fires right up or not.
I hope its not the middle gear. My unit did not run with the middle gear you sent me in it. Thats the gear we are trying to mold right now, so i hope thats not it.
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Hmmm.... the unit that gear came from exibited warm up trouble... but worked perfect with another good gear.
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My warm up issue is definitely not the CD gear being stuck.
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Hmmm.... the unit that gear came from exibited warm up trouble... but worked perfect with another good gear.
Well then we will try to copy this gear and if it works out, maybe you can send that good gear once we know we can copy it.
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I can't imagine there being anything wrong with the gear that you couldn't detect by just looking at it. It is just a gear after all.
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I just repaired a Turbo duo that was having this issue by replacing some caps. Not sure if this would apply to a stand alone PC engine CD player or not.
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I have tried a complete cap replacement on a motherboard with this warm up issue.... sadly no change. The only thing that has made a difference is tapping on the sled motor and putting a different middle gear in... :-k
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Ok, after numerous tests I believe chop5 and I have narrowed this issue down to a few components.
I'll do a complete write up of the whole investigation later. I still have a few more tests to do to try and narrow it down to one single component. I need volunteers who have an issue exhibiting warm up symtoms! I have a hypothesis that I need more data on to confirm.
I believe that the warm up issue originates in either the laser sled motor seizing up, or the middle gear becoming slightly damaged / deformed causing the sled gear train to lock up. Or it could be both of these issues. I have pretty much 100% confirmed this is NOT a motherboard issue though!
Anyone who wants to help out and has a warm up troubled unit, do me a favor... when it turns on but doesn't spin... pop it open and just touch the gear on the end of the laser sled motor to turn it just a bit (break it free perhaps) and then try running the unit again and see if it fires right up or not.
Hmm... sounds a lot like what happens with my TurboGrafx CD. I have to fight with it for several minutes before it decides to move the laser. The cause: the f***ing middle gear. That little pile of crappy plastic gets stuck on my TurboGrafx CD and only starts moving after I move the laser back and forth several times for 15 minutes or more.
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Sounds like we need replacement gears awful bad :P Official Ninja is working on some, and I have a backup plan in case that plan fails.
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Ok, after numerous tests I believe chop5 and I have narrowed this issue down to a few components.
I'll do a complete write up of the whole investigation later. I still have a few more tests to do to try and narrow it down to one single component. I need volunteers who have an issue exhibiting warm up symtoms! I have a hypothesis that I need more data on to confirm.
I believe that the warm up issue originates in either the laser sled motor seizing up, or the middle gear becoming slightly damaged / deformed causing the sled gear train to lock up. Or it could be both of these issues. I have pretty much 100% confirmed this is NOT a motherboard issue though!
Anyone who wants to help out and has a warm up troubled unit, do me a favor... when it turns on but doesn't spin... pop it open and just touch the gear on the end of the laser sled motor to turn it just a bit (break it free perhaps) and then try running the unit again and see if it fires right up or not.
Hmm... sounds a lot like what happens with my TurboGrafx CD. I have to fight with it for several minutes before it decides to move the laser. The cause: the f***ing middle gear. That little pile of crappy plastic gets stuck on my TurboGrafx CD and only starts moving after I move the laser back and forth several times for 15 minutes or more.
Well, its like this. If your gear hasn't broken yet, then you don't need a new gear. You need to thoroughly clean the entire gear set and re-lubricate it. It will then be good for another 15+ years or so. The alternative is to just keep manhandling the crap out of it until it breaks, in which case then you'll need a new gear.
When diagnosing things its really important to not get overly hung up specific factors. Even if you install a brand new gear, you're still going to have problems if you don't get rid of the old grease and put some new stuff in there.
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Well my issues has nothing to do with the laser not moving. It moves freely upon start up no problem. It flat out just reads poorly for 3 to 5 minutes and then just starts working great. I never have to push the laser to get its movement started.
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Oh. Well then, in that case, disregard what I've said.
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chop5 has been shipped 2 two units; one US (the warm-up unit BMW sent me) and one JP (The one Frankenstein that we concluded was a "dead motherboard") for testing.
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Excellent blue! I look forward to the results!
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Well, what do you know. I just fixed the problem. It was bad caps on my CD player. I just looked for the ones with some corrosion on the legs and replaced. Works great now.
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I figured some of the units might be the victim of bad caps.. But I have replaced caps on units with warm up trouble and had no change.
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Well, what do you know. I just fixed the problem. It was bad caps on my CD player. I just looked for the ones with some corrosion on the legs and replaced. Works great now.
Was this hard to do?
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Well, what do you know. I just fixed the problem. It was bad caps on my CD player. I just looked for the ones with some corrosion on the legs and replaced. Works great now.
The hardest part is getting the motherboard out and in a position to replace the caps. They're all through mount so they're much easier to remove and replace than surface mount caps. Just be aware of clearance issues if you use higher voltage caps since they tend to be much larger.
Was this hard to do?
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It was not all that hard to do. I ended up using caps from a D-34 sony drive I had sitting around for parts. The only part I worried about is sometimes the ribbon cables for the lens itself can be very brittle but I got it back together just fine.
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mine and bluebmw's findings so far with 3 warm up units. Thought at first it was one of the 2 motors had the brushings wearing off because they are way past there cutoff date but the more we explored we found the real culprit:
Bmw's warm up unit:
Had a unit where he did extensive cap and Ba chip change. We were doing a mechanism change when we thought it was a motor problem. Did the mechanism change and it worked right away where he did the famous youtube video showing it. But when he put his original mechanism and moved the middle gear with finger and unit would start up without warm up time. Our first clue to a possible gear problem.
blues unit:
first thing i noticed is the dial stays lit until it starts to spin. This is an indication of stuck laser but without the startup. So opened the unit and one of the gears has seized up. Slid the motor gear out slowly with a tiny flat head and sure enough it was the middle gear.
The motors gear moved freely and the sled gear is suspended on its own shaft so it cant get stuck. Went on a quest for lube and only found white lithium grease and graphite. Greasing the outside wont help as the friction is on the axel so i removed the small metal oring that holds the middle gear in place and slid the gear off. Cleaned its tiny axle with alcohol swab and no residue was found. Lubed up the axle and the inside of the gear with a toothpick with graphite first and still got friction from it so cleaned off the graphite and used lithium. I got slightly better results but noticed that the inside of the gear is very tight. I think its swelling over time and causing the friction on the axel which causes the motor to strip it. Swelling from age and plastic liquefaction which also causes the gears to loose strength,makes them soft and even easier for the motor to strip it.
But as soon as lube was applied no warm up time started up right away.
Can anyone recall if before their unit stripped its gears if the unit needed warm up time?
Ope'e unit:
Unit would not spin,gear intact sent to bmw for laser change. Laser change done but bmw noticed warm up time of 8 to 10 minutes. Sent back unit where some days later even tho with new lube on outside of gears ope heard the dreaded motor stripping noise and unit died. Sent to me and did a zombie gear change and unit came to life with no warm up reinforcing the seized up gear theory.
I'm pretty sure the warm up is connected to the problematic middle gear. The middle gear seizing up and the motor taking its time to free it. But since i get resistance even with lube i fear its only a band-aid. The gear will die eventually. It will die even quicker without some sort of lube on the axle so if your unit is having warm up issues STOP using it until you can get some lube in it.
Either do it yourself or send it to one of us.
I'm trying to find the perfect lube so far graphite and white lithium grease aren't doing well so im looking for some silicone and molybdenum and a better form of graphite. Perhaps a better lube will help or it may be just as good as it gets with the swelling.
The tests continue...
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Do you have access to a set of really small drill bits? I'm just wondering if reaming the hole back to correct size would help.
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Do you have access to a set of really small drill bits? I'm just wondering if reaming the hole back to correct size would help.
That's what I was going to say.
I'm not really sold on the idea that the gear actually shrank. I think the real problem is that gears like this tend to be made out of plastics that are said to be "self lubricating". I think that shit dried out, which is why the gear is more brittle, and then it got stuck on the shaft. If you can drill the hole slightly larger though, and get some sort of lube in there, it might be the fix.
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drilling will not be possible given the state of the gears. this is melting plastic syndrome!
but i took what you said and took out 3 dead gears i had laying around. They all show swollen symptoms and one actally cracked in half as i put back in the axle.
I have a gear still attached to its mechanism and is still working and it is as fluid on the axle as can be so i don't think they were supposed to be like this or a design flaw. Friction is a bitch and will destroy whatever it touches over time.
funny thing about that still intact working gear,its turning clear. i think the previous owner added oil that seeped in it.
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i think i found the perfect lube,silicone. I bought a tube off ebay,TRA1647 Silicon Grease by Traxxas made for remote control cars servo gears and stuff.
Tested for many days on blueravens consistant 20 minute warm up unit. Now turns on right away. That silicone is super slippery even when i was applying it with a toothpick to the inside of the gear and axle it was slipping around. I applied alot but not too much. No sign of absorption by the gear.
Unit is being return now so it can be played the shit out of. Unsure if later on more silicone would have to be applied.
So if anyone doing this you need to slide off the motor gear carefully with your fingernail and then remove the tiny O ring that holds the middle gear in place. I used a combination of tiny screwdriver,fingernail and needle to lift it off. The O ring has a split on it so it can be lifted. be very careful not to touch the gear directly it is fragile and could break. It is very tiny and easy to loose so do this in a clean flat area in case it flies off from the pressure.
Once removed clean the axle with a alcohol swab. If you can clean the inside of the gear with a twisted tissue made to size but again it can split if too much pressure is put or if the tissue is to big so if you leave it alone that will be fine.
Now lube with a toothpick over the axle and inside of gear and place back the O ring.
Voila.
If you cant do this i have a full tube of silicone so i can do it for you just pay shipping back :)
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I have a question. I have the warm-up issue, but when I move the gears with my finger, there's no more resistance than I would expect from the motor. Then when I remove the motor gear, the middle gear certainly isn't stuck.
The more I think about it, it seems like the problem might not be gear related.
Just to describe it again, my issue is that the CD player lights up, makes a noise, and shunts the CD slightly, then immediately powers off.
Might this actually be a capacitor issue? I could look for corrosion, but I don't think it's a great idea for me to replace them if I'm not sure that's the problem.
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If it spins slightly and stops right away it is generally the CD lens going bad. It would not spin at all if it were the gears.
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Yeeesh. Ok, I replaced the laser, and now it powers on longer, but it does different stuff:
It makes a high pitch whine and switches off
It does the same as before, powers on briefly and shunts the disc
When you press run, it says "PC" in the display, and either sits there doing nothing for ages, or whines.
It also makes a sound like the motor is going, but I don't think it is.
I have no idea. Pretty sure I assembled it right, apart from a missing screw on the top cover plate (inside under the CD).
Any ideas?
*Edit* 3 things worry me;
The blush on the lens may have been rubbed
The ribbon on the unit was sealed in, and may have been damaged during extraction
The plastic link to the worm mechanism may not be fully attached - Only three screws of 5. But it does move the laser when turned.
Re-edited for clarity (I posted it from my phone last night). Should I create a seperate topic, or is it ok in here?