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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: GAUGE on February 26, 2011, 07:27:04 AM
Title: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: GAUGE on February 26, 2011, 07:27:04 AM
Do you think Master System games on the Turbo impacted sales and overall perception negatively?
I didn't realize it so much at the time, but it seems like there were an unusually large number of games that showed up at home on the Master System first (Vigilante, Dragon's Curse, Space Harrier, Ys - just off the top of my head).
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Necromancer on February 26, 2011, 07:45:07 AM
The games that showed up on both platforms were mostly ports of arcade and PC games where the Turbo game looked superior (as one would expect), so I don't think they made any difference, at least not negatively.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on February 26, 2011, 08:37:56 AM
I think it made it more appealing. better looking arcade games on a newer system. Plus the systems new games. ys having cd quality music and voice overs, better grafx. I think it would of attracted people that had a nes and not a sms to get the pce. Beccause now they could have some of the cool sega games they didnt get to play on a new system.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: GAUGE on February 26, 2011, 09:24:14 AM
I was generally just curious if it made an impact with anyone. It definitely didn't for me (I actually rented Ys on the Master System first, because I didn't have all the cash for the CD system - otherwise, I didn't notice the shared titles back then).
The Turbo versions are definitely upgrades, but thought that maybe someone familiar with the SMS library at the time thought it funny/odd to see so many SMS games on the Turbo.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Joe Redifer on February 26, 2011, 09:54:15 AM
I didn't see Space Harrier on the Turbo as much of an upgrade. It doesn't look as good because the graphics are so tiny and not very detailed, not to mention the floor looking, well, stupid. It does move much, much better and it plays faster but that's it. I think I even prefer the music on the SMS version better as well.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Necromancer on February 26, 2011, 10:14:45 AM
I didn't see Space Harrier on the Turbo as much of an upgrade. It doesn't look as good because the graphics are so tiny and not very detailed, not to mention the floor looking, well, stupid. It does move much, much better and it plays faster but that's it. I think I even prefer the music on the SMS version better as well.
For those who missed it the first go 'round, there's a fantastic discussion regarding Space Harrier in the comparison thread (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6609.msg131969#msg131969). Read it now to discover why Joe is WRONG! :P
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on February 26, 2011, 10:20:44 AM
I didn't see Space Harrier on the Turbo as much of an upgrade. It doesn't look as good because the graphics are so tiny and not very detailed, not to mention the floor looking, well, stupid. It does move much, much better and it plays faster but that's it. I think I even prefer the music on the SMS version better as well.
For those who missed it the first go 'round, there's a fantastic discussion regarding Space Harrier in the comparison thread (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6609.msg131969#msg131969). Read it now to discover why Joe is WRONG! :P
Lol, while reading Joes post, just the vey same idea came up. Well, there it already was.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: DesmondThe3rd on February 26, 2011, 10:38:09 AM
Well, I personally think it was a mistake for NEC to release the TG-16 version of Space Harrier after Space Harrier 2 on the Genesis but it does blow away the choppy Master System edition at least.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Necromancer on February 26, 2011, 10:42:33 AM
I actually agree that it ain't much of an upgrade over the SMS version. It's coloring is closer to the arcade (did they even try on the SMS?), but the voices suck and where's the checkerboard?
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Bonknuts on February 26, 2011, 11:01:56 AM
The Master system version of Space Harrier cuts the roof of your mouth. No good.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on February 26, 2011, 11:32:16 AM
the missing checkerboard was the only bad thing in pce space harrier. beside of that, it was a very nice port at that time and had a fast pace, unlike the MD space harrier 2.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on February 26, 2011, 12:19:32 PM
Since the SMS failed in the US but was popular in Europe. And the TG barely got any European distribution I don't think the two systems effected each other too significantly.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 26, 2011, 01:14:20 PM
Nah, it didn't hurt the Turbo much. Most of the dual release games were better on the Turbob anyway. Ys for TurboCD is notoriously the best classic version of the game.
and, Altered Beast on SMS was a disaster and a half. So was Vigilante. Vigilante for Turbo is a better play than the arcade version even!
Though, Space Harrier for the SMS is pretty damn good. Its a beautiful SMS game. Even if the ground is scaling kinda retarded.
All in all I would definitely say the SMS didn't have any effect on the Turbo.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on February 26, 2011, 01:30:16 PM
The fact that there were SMS games first didn't hurt it all. Even if it could've turned some people off, it never happened because less people knew (or know now) what the SMS was than the TG-16.
Ys I & II to this day is one of the main draws of the Turbo/PCE and I don't think that it would've hurt Phantasy Star II if it also included a majorly enhanced port of the original. R-Type and Dragon's Curse are also favorite Turbo games of most non-hardcore Turbo players and Dynastic Hero isn't lessened by the SMS port. The fact that it Ys I - III, Valis, Altered Beast, Wizardries, Operation Wolf, Fantasy Zone, Parodius, Salamander, Gradius, Twinbee, Legend of Valkyrie, etc were also on Famicom/NES doesn't make a difference either. Even the Bonk ports didn't hurt as far as actual content, since they all felt so broken and didn't look as nice. The notion that Bonk was on other platforms might've affected the Turbo brand, but probably not much more than there being Sonic games for SMS, Game Gear and NGP.
The SMS only lessened the impact of the Genesis for me, since I'd played most SMS games up till the Genesis launched and what I most wanted out of graphics (vibrant color and shading) was weaker in the early Genesis games, which looked pale and two-toned.
Most SMS games that were also on NES already looked like a step above. Having Turbo versions that were so much more advanced only added to the next generation feel.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on February 26, 2011, 02:16:23 PM
Yeah, in terms of nice colors the SMS could kick some MD ass at the beginning. I still believe that Hang On looks so damn well colored on the SMS, or Aleste, Fantasy Zone II, Dragon's trap etc.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on February 26, 2011, 02:48:39 PM
Yeah, in terms of nice colors the SMS could kick some MD ass at the beginning. I still believe that Hang On looks so damn well colored on the SMS, or Aleste, Fantasy Zone II, Dragon's trap etc.
I still liked the look and feel of the early Genesis games, Ninja Spirit is the same way. But it made TG-16 stand out to me as a Genesis player, even with Keith Courage.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Emerald Rocker on February 26, 2011, 02:55:08 PM
All my buddies made fun of the Turbo because it had all those old Sega games that no one wanted to play (hence why they all got the NES). Whereas the Genesis had the sweet new Sega games that EVERYONE wanted to play, like Altered Beast and Golden Axe. But did they port those to the Turbo? Of course not!
So yeah, I would say that the proliferation of Master System ports hurt the Turbo a lot.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 26, 2011, 03:35:56 PM
The fact that there were SMS games first didn't hurt it all. Even if it could've turned some people off, it never happened because less people knew (or know now) what the SMS was than the TG-16.
Ys I & II to this day is one of the main draws of the Turbo/PCE and I don't think that it would've hurt Phantasy Star II if it also included a majorly enhanced port of the original. R-Type and Dragon's Curse are also favorite Turbo games of most non-hardcore Turbo players and Dynastic Hero isn't lessened by the SMS port. The fact that it Ys I - III, Valis, Altered Beast, Wizardries, Operation Wolf, Fantasy Zone, Parodius, Salamander, Gradius, Twinbee, Legend of Valkyrie, etc were also on Famicom/NES doesn't make a difference either. Even the Bonk ports didn't hurt as far as actual content, since they all felt so broken and didn't look as nice. The notion that Bonk was on other platforms might've affected the Turbo brand, but probably not much more than there being Sonic games for SMS, Game Gear and NGP.
The SMS only lessened the impact of the Genesis for me, since I'd played most SMS games up till the Genesis launched and what I most wanted out of graphics (vibrant color and shading) was weaker in the early Genesis games, which looked pale and two-toned.
Most SMS games that were also on NES already looked like a step above. Having Turbo versions that were so much more advanced only added to the next generation feel.
The SMS has some seriously vibrant color. I love vibrant colored games. It is one of the reasons why I dont like the C64 even though the RPG library demolished all the other of-the-time computers. The SMS had really bright, vibrant games. Even more than the NES usually (compare the double dragon releases). The library wasn't as great. Not having a good Capcom and Konami base really sucks... :(
we have to remember though, some of the stuff we're mentioning was PCE only (Altered Beast, Wizardries, and stuff). We are talking about the Turbo, so these don't properly fall into comparison. We didn't get Wizardries, Altered Beast, Legend of valkyrie, and Parodius for example.
So, I think what really hurt the turbo is not localizing all the severely amazing games in the PCE library. If we had CD versions of the Llylgamyn saga (Wizardry!), holy damn. We didn't even get a US Might and Magic 1. The PCE CD ones pummel every other version of these games... mostly due to them being enhanced versions of ancient PC games....the classic dungeon crawler RPGs on PCE are top notch.
All my buddies made fun of the Turbo because it had all those old Sega games that no one wanted to play (hence why they all got the NES). Whereas the Genesis had the sweet new Sega games that EVERYONE wanted to play, like Altered Beast and Golden Axe. But did they port those to the Turbo? Of course not!
So yeah, I would say that the proliferation of Master System ports hurt the Turbo a lot.
They ported them to the hardware.... What they didn't do, was localize them to the US. Having Altered Beast on Turbo would have helped, I think.
same with a few other games we didn't get in the US that we should have.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Emerald Rocker on February 26, 2011, 03:39:55 PM
Quote
They ported them to the hardware.... What they didn't do, was localize them to the US. Having Altered Beast on Turbo would have helped, I think.
same with a few other games we didn't get in the US that we should have.
You're confused. You're probably thinking of Jyuouki and Goruden Akkusu, and they really don't count since they never came to the US.
Altered Beast and Golden Axe were hella better than those two well-documented stinkers.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Bonknuts on February 26, 2011, 03:43:31 PM
TG16 might have debuted in late '89, but '90 was the real year for it. Master system? I didn't even remember it existed by 1990, let alone by 1989. If I did see games in magazines for it (reviews) like in Gamepro, VG&CE, EGM, I must have subconsciously skipped over them. I knew of one kid at school that had an SMS and we made fun of him for it. One kid in my whole grade (1988 I think, middle school). Or at least, he was the only one that admitted it. Bobby Sweetpea (or however the f*ck you spell his last name).
Little off topic: Funny. In High school, people didn't talk casually about games much (unless you were a vidiot; video gaming idiot and usually a nerd. Generally uncool or a geek). It was considered 'cool' to put away childish things like the NES, act 'older', getting into trouble, and chasing ass. That was 1990 and I was a freshman. Sega didn't get that 'edgy' vibe yet, so video gaming was looked at as either computer gaming (very-very nerdish) or just NES which was seen as childish (the graphics weren't 'realistic' then were 'kiddie'. But that's because they were 8bit. The themes were kiddish. Etc). Not unlike those DnD kids. Arcade games seemed to be immune during that time because there were a little more mature looking and didn't require some strange obsession to play them in all your free time. There was no stigma attached to arcade gaming. Even considered desirable because it was a hang out. Strange how the gaming culture changed so much over just those two years (from 1990 to 1992).
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Emerald Rocker on February 26, 2011, 03:45:36 PM
So, I think what really hurt the turbo is not localizing all the severely amazing games in the PCE library. If we had CD versions of the Llylgamyn saga (Wizardry!), holy damn. We didn't even get a US Might and Magic 1. The PCE CD ones pummel every other version of these games... mostly due to them being enhanced versions of ancient PC games....the classic dungeon crawler RPGs on PCE are top notch.
Sorry for the double post, but I missed this part! If you think PCE Might & Magic is better than the original PC version, then you are sorely mistaken!
Here, read my review: Might & Magic PCE (http://www.unlimitedzigworks.com/480/pce-might-and-magic-cd.html)
It's got some colorful re-drawn artwork, but is much worse than the PC original.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Emerald Rocker on February 26, 2011, 04:11:35 PM
Funny. In High school, people didn't talk casually about games much (unless you were a vidiot; video gaming idiot and usually a nerd. Generally uncool or a geek). It was considered 'cool' to put away childish things like the NES, act 'older', getting into trouble, and chasing ass. That was 1990 and I was a freshman. Sega didn't get that 'edgy' vibe yet, so video gaming was looked at as either computer gaming (very-very nerdish) or just NES which was seen as childish
Totally bizarre story, but when I moved in 8th grade to a new state and therefore new school, I was seen as a nerd by this one guy who led his cool clique. He didn't try to physically bully me or anything (he was "cool" but not a jock) but made fun of me for getting good grades. So one day in gym when I'm changing back into my normal clothes, he grabs my wallet, rifles through it, and finds my NINTENDO FUN CLUB CARD. Yeah, the lame thing I stuck in there back in 5th grade and for god knows what reason never removed from my wallet.
I was so humiliated.
But then he says: "whoa, you like Nintendo? I always thought you were a nerd, but this is pretty cool." We then became friends and that was the beginning of my rise to fame and glory.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt they Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 26, 2011, 04:30:35 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I missed this part! If you think PCE Might & Magic is better than the original PC version, then you are sorely mistaken!
Here, read my review: Might & Magic PCE (http://www.unlimitedzigworks.com/480/pce-might-and-magic-cd.html)
It's got some colorful re-drawn artwork, but is much worse than the PC original.
Presentation/quality wise its better. Gameplay wise, its better. It lacks customization, and yeah that definitely does suck.. but makes up for it in every other category, especially the magic portion. The original PC one is a bit rough in that regard. I blame the era and limitations of the release time.
I'm big into the Might and Magic games! I like the PCE CD one alot more than the original DOS one, and I prefer it over the NES one too. Some of it may have to do with the over-Japanification of it and with the fact that I never really used the lightning bow when I played the DOS one... :)
Isles of Terra ruled on PCE. I wish World of Xeen was brought to PCE CD also. I can only dream of how badass the tunes wouldve been.
This brings up an interesting thought. Order of the Griffon took out character customizing too. All of the other Goldbox games had customizing. I wonder why they tried doing M&M 1, and OotG without it?
TG16 might have debuted in late '89, but '90 was the real year for it. Master system? I didn't even remember it existed by 1990, let alone by 1989. If I did see games in magazines for it (reviews) like in Gamepro, VG&CE, EGM, I must have subconsciously skipped over them. I knew of one kid at school that had an SMS and we made fun of him for it. One kid in my whole grade (1988 I think, middle school). Or at least, he was the only one that admitted it. Bobby Sweetpea (or however the f*ck you spell his last name).
I got picked on for getting a Dreamcast in 6th grade. I even got punched in the face for it. What is it with owning sega and getting made fun of, lol.
Quote
Little off topic: Funny. In High school, people didn't talk casually about games much (unless you were a vidiot; video gaming idiot and usually a nerd. Generally uncool or a geek). It was considered 'cool' to put away childish things like the NES, act 'older', getting into trouble, and chasing ass. That was 1990 and I was a freshman. Sega didn't get that 'edgy' vibe yet, so video gaming was looked at as either computer gaming (very-very nerdish) or just NES which was seen as childish (the graphics weren't 'realistic' then were 'kiddie'. But that's because they were 8bit. The themes were kiddish. Etc). Not unlike those DnD kids. Arcade games seemed to be immune during that time because there were a little more mature looking and didn't require some strange obsession to play them in all your free time. There was no stigma attached to arcade gaming. Even considered desirable because it was a hang out. Strange how the gaming culture changed so much over just those two years (from 1990 to 1992).
Everyone talked about video games when I was in school, even the jocks. Gaming has evolved enough that almost everyone plays them now. Jocks talked about sports, racing and FPS, all the dorks talked about RPGs, but everyone talked about stuff... and sometimes we could find middle ground and talk about fighting games in the midst of the jocks razzing the dorks/outcasts. Pretty strange when you have an indepth conversation about street fighter with someone who just threw a bottle of gatorade at your head a few days earlier.... only to have him wing a twinkie at you hours after the conversation!
but, then we got picked on for playing D&D and stuff still... #-o
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Joe Redifer on February 26, 2011, 07:50:00 PM
Although I love Wonder Boy 3 with a passion, one thing about it that always bothered me about it is the crappy 30fps scrolling (like Gex on the 3DO). I'm not sure why it doesn't scroll as smooth as it could. There certainly didn't seem to be anything special going on technically that would limit it to half the rate it normally runs at. The TurboGrafx-16 sprite hack of Wonder Boy 3 known as Dragon's Curse scrolls smoothly at 60fps and has very pleasing music, so I prefer that version. Hell, it also lets you save instead of writing down a clumsy password so that makes it even better.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: TheClash603 on February 27, 2011, 03:31:24 AM
The SMS hurt the TG16 if the buyer wanted to play some kick ass Hang-On.
Otherwise, they co-existed painfully forgotten on the shelves with no real affect on each other.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 27, 2011, 03:42:29 AM
They formed a "The US sucks balls" support group, and played each others awesome games together.
They had a child, but noones seen or heard of it.
The Turbo Master Grafx-16 System
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on February 27, 2011, 05:43:22 AM
Going back to the OP - yes, but only slightly.
Nintendo's exclusive development policies did the real damage that kept popular titles away from both systems.
After that, the shared Sega ports did give the TG16 a certain weirdnesss in the eyes of Nintendo kids. To indicate how weird non-Nintendo games were perceived at the time in my area, I remember standing in a local rental store and picking up NES Shinobi, in all its crazy Tengen packaging, and asking my friend, "what the heck is this?" He said, "oh, that's a Sega game. Ninja Gaiden is better."
People tend to lump new things into familiar categories. While neither system was terribly well known, the shared ports probably led some to write the Turbo off as another loser system. The initial TG16 launch included four ports shared with the SMS: Fantasy Zone (featuring one-time Sega mascot Opa-Opa), Space Harrier (another big-name Sega title with both 3-D and regular versions on the SMS), R-Type (a new 4-mega game heavily advertised by SMS standards), and Vigilante. Definitely enough to give a SMS connotation to those familiar with other systems.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 27, 2011, 06:20:12 AM
anyone who writes off the turbob as a loser system is a retart.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on February 27, 2011, 07:35:42 AM
anyone who writes off the turbob as a loser system is a retart.
*retard.
No, retart.
I typed it just like I wanted it to be spelled.
as in
BOBBY GIT DA SHOTGUN OUT YOUR MOUTH YOU GOT DAMNED RETART.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on February 27, 2011, 08:38:40 AM
ha ha ha ah
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: nat on February 27, 2011, 09:03:28 AM
In my area, nobody had heard of a Sega Master System but just about everyone knew what the TurboGrafx-16 was. f*ck, I didn't even learn what a SMS was until the waning days of the 16-bit era.
Those who owned TG-16s were actually viewed as "cool" by their peers, with "cool" parents that ignored the trends of the time and bought Turbos instead of a Genesis or NES. That was me, and a handful of others. Kids all around the neighborhood wanted to come over and play TG-16 games; a welcome break from the NES and Genesis monotony they were forced to endure at home. I remember many a hot, sticky summer afternoon with neighborhood kids gathered around my TV taking turns at "Air Zonk" while I sat and played Catacomb Abyss 3D on the computer.
So to answer the initial question.... no.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on February 27, 2011, 10:09:58 AM
Here in beautiful central New Jersey everyone had either a sms or nintendo but more had a nes. I wanted a sms but my brother talked me out with mario, and kid icarus. During christmas of 89 i is when I got my turbo. It was hard to choose over the genny but I think I went with the better choice. never did anyone compare the sms to the turbob. It was all about the 16 bit war against the genny. snes wasnt even a factor imo cause it wasnt even out yet. When I saw r-type for the turbo, I was excited to get it cause I always wanted it and the sms.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on February 27, 2011, 01:05:11 PM
My cousin mike had a SMS. I loved it. The first time I played it was post sega genesis days.
My aunt and uncle had a turbo. they're awesome. they're the cool kind of relatives. Tattoos, motorcycles, concerts, TURBO GRAFXXXXXXXXXXXXX!
:D
I had every system growing up. I just wanted to play tons of games and didn't give a rats ass about trends or advertising. I was like 4!
I may sound spoiled, but the reality of it is my grandma worked at sears and got discounts and access to stuff that sold out fast....and me and my sister who shared the game systems are her only grandkids, so she hooked us up good.
and then all my aunts/uncles were teens/early 20s at the time so they'd give me stuff when they got bored with it. hand me down NES's and Square RPGs, f*ck yeah!
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Mishran on February 27, 2011, 02:14:34 PM
Hey all, new member. Love the TG16 and been occasionally checking out these forums for a couple years now, but been doing it more frequent recently so I decided to join up.
On topic, I just can't believe how pathetically passionate people can be when it comes to game systems. When I was younger I saw many friendships break because of people buying that "other system". One person stops talking to another because he got the SMS instead of the NES. This person beats up that person for buying a TG16 instead of the Genesis. I too was lucky enough to have cool family and had most every console growing up. I was sort of an outcast in school though since everyone considered me a traitor to their cause. But now I'm older and only past gen system I still own is my trusty turbo collection.
BTW, where is the best place to post gaming questions about specific games here? Getting stuck on a certain level, trouble beating a boss character, etc.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: termis on March 01, 2011, 01:25:11 AM
On topic, I just can't believe how pathetically passionate people can be when it comes to game systems. When I was younger I saw many friendships break because of people buying that "other system". One person stops talking to another because he got the SMS instead of the NES. This person beats up that person for buying a TG16 instead of the Genesis.
Man, that's some serious folks you hung around. Even as a typical NES kid back in the days, I remember being fond of the few SMS owners I knew after realizing some of my favorite games had better looking ports on the SMS (i.e. Double Dragon, After Burner), and seeing Phantasy Star was mindblowing back in 1988. I eventually "got" the SMS by getting the power base converter (still have it :P).
Anyway, welcome aboard.
And back to original topic, nah, I can't see how SMS had any effect, either positive or negative on the Turbo, but I didn't get the TG until its waning years (92... or so IIRC).
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on March 01, 2011, 02:57:58 AM
Man, that's some serious folks you hung around. Even as a typical NES kid back in the days, I remember being fond of the few SMS owners I knew after realizing some of my favorite games had better looking ports on the SMS (i.e. Double Dragon, After Burner), and seeing Phantasy Star was mindblowing back in 1988. I eventually "got" the SMS by getting the power base converter (still have it :P).
Anyway, welcome aboard.
And back to original topic, nah, I can't see how SMS had any effect, either positive or negative on the Turbo, but I didn't get the TG until its waning years (92... or so IIRC).
I knew a total of two people growing up who had an SMS. One was fairly wealthy and also had a NES. The other was quite the reverse and was dirt poor and had the SMS 2 which was 50.00 (the price of a first party NES cart) in 1990.
Added in edit: Seeing the SMS was a novelty, practically no one owned them. I'd see them in stores a bit, and I remember the commercials but actually being able to play one was rare. The Atari 7800 was even less common, I remember the "More Games at about half the price" commercials vividly, and I remember seeing the system for sale at Service Merchandise and a few other stores. But I knew no one who owned the 7800.
I knew a lot of people who had TGs, but that's partly because I grew up within a nearly single digit mile radius from NEC USA headquarters who apparently did a much more thorough job of marketing the system in my area.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on March 01, 2011, 11:44:13 AM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each otheras the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo. Was anyone alive when this all went down?
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on March 01, 2011, 11:51:07 AM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each otheras the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo. Was anyone alive when this all went down?
The SMS comparisons are due to a fair number of games shared in their library, Ys, R-Type, Space Harrier, Fantasy Zone.
The Turbo I always think of as competing with the Gen and not the SMS.
By 1989 when the Turbo came out the SMS was relegated to niche status in the US as Sega's second tier system to the Genesis.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 01, 2011, 03:23:00 PM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each otheras the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo.
Besides the games we've talked about, the TG16 and SMS have a surprising amount in common that makes them worthy of comparison. Unlike their competitors, they're both unusual in that they don't fit neatly into the categories of "console generations" that has been widely adopted in recent years. Wikipedia and Gamefaqs might list them as forth- and third-generation consoles respectfully, but things aren't black and white and they co-existed for most of the same years. The Mark III came out in '85 and the PCE followed two years later in '87, a year before the Mega Drive. North American stores started cleaning out their SMS carts in '92 and the Turbo stock hit the bargain bins only a year later in '93. The PCE was fairly well supported in Japan through 95, the SMS in Brazil through '97. CD-ROM upgrades aside, it could also be argued that the capabilities of their hardware are a little closer than other "8-bit" and "16-bit" systems: the SMS was technically superior to other third-generation systems while the TG16 was unique in the forth generation in that it had an 8-bit core processor. The SCD games definitely have that "16-bit" feel, but, IMO, those early PCE titles seem a little closer to high-quality SMS/NES caliber.
Anyway, the discussion hasn't been whether the SMS arose from the verge of death in '91 and stole potential Turbo buyers, but whether the reappearance of games already made popular on the SMS (lol, there's an oxymoron) "impacted sales and overall perception" of the TurboGrafx.
Quote
Was anyone alive when this all went down?
Hell yeah!
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 01, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
Here's a list of games. Let me know if I missed anything.
Games released in the U.S. on both the SMS and TG16 Fantasy Zone Wonderboy/New Adventure Island (significant differences) R-Type Space Harrier Vigilante Ys Book I
Games on both the SMS and PCE The Addams Family (different games sharing name only) Afterburner Altered Beast Chase HQ Cloud Master Columns Forgotten Worlds Ghouls and Ghosts Golden Axe Klax Lemmings Ninja Gaiden (different games sharing name only) Operation Wolf Outrun Populous Prince of Persia Rainbow Isles S.C.I. Shadow of the Beast Shinobi Space Invaders Street Fighter II Strider Thunder Blade Wonderboy in Monsterland Wonderboy in Monster World/Dynastic Hero Wonderboy III/Dragon's Curse
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2011, 03:53:43 PM
The SMS is awesome.
I dunno why it gets alot of flak.
but it still doesnt compare to the PCE , like at all.
The same games also exist on the MSX for the most part (and others that are PCE+MSX, but not SMS), and that cant touch the PCE either.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2011, 04:04:42 PM
The SMS was the best real 8-Bit console (8-Bit league player). Sure it won't compare to the PCE, since PCE was a 16-Bit league player.
Those are two different worlds.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on March 01, 2011, 04:05:02 PM
Here's a list of games. Let me know if I missed anything.
Games released in the U.S. on both the SMS and TG16 Fantasy Zone Wonderboy/New Adventure Island R-Type Space Harrier Vigilante Ys Book I
Games on both the SMS and PCE (All regions) The Addams Family Afterburner Altered Beast Chase HQ Cloud Master Columns Forgotten Worlds Ghouls and Ghosts Golden Axe Klax Lemmings Ninja Gaiden Operation Wolf Outrun Populous Prince of Persia Rainbow Isles S.C.I. Shadow of the Beast Shinobi Space Invaders Street Fighter II Strider Thunder Blade Wonderboy in Monsterland Wonderboy in Monster World/Dynastic Hero Wonderboy III/Dragon's Curse
Addams Family, New Adventure Island and Ninja Gaiden are completely different games. Not sure how the all-regions breaks down, but not all of those games were released in all regions or only the U.S. Those are still all names or brands that crossed between SMS and TG-16, but the Genesis/MD probably has more shared names/brands with the SMS, especially as far as games that are more or less supposed to be the same.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 01, 2011, 04:13:40 PM
Yeah, I didn't know how to phrase it for the 2nd list referring to games that may not have been released in the same regions. I'll edit out "all regions" and factor in your comments.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on March 01, 2011, 04:38:53 PM
I find it hard for the SMS to beat out the NES, personally.
I blame the lack of RPG presence.
Granted the SMS had a terribly small selection of RPGs, but the ones it did have were very good.
I'd say the following games hold their own against the NES equivalents. Phantasy Star = Final Fantasy Ultima IV = Ultima Avatar Golden Axe Warrior < Zelda 1 Ys > Dragon Warrior Miracle Warriors = ?
Throw in psuedo rpgs like Lord of the Sword, Golvellius, Spellcaster, Gauntlet, Kings Quest, Populous, Dragon Crystal, and Alex Kidd High-Tech and the SMS wasn't that bad.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 01, 2011, 08:56:34 PM
Vestcoat, Wonderboy 3 and Dragon's Curse were both released in the USA.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 01, 2011, 09:06:16 PM
Unfortunately not in Japan. Still have to get me that back bone adaptor and and Dragon's trap, Vigilante, rastan saga and choplifter. And FM here it comes :)
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: esteban on March 01, 2011, 11:40:30 PM
Hey all, new member. Love the TG16 and been occasionally checking out these forums for a couple years now, but been doing it more frequent recently so I decided to join up.
Welcome, Mishran :)
SMS and TG-16:
Social, Practical, Economic Factors If you were economically semi-independent during 1985-1990, you had more freedom of choice. I wasn't; I had to save birthday money to buy things, so choosing a console was influenced by many things.
Growing up, 96% of the serious (obsessed) video game fiends had NES. It was 1985-1990, we were kids, and our parents bought the goddamn things. Even when kids had a choice, you better believe the social component was crucial in the decision-making process: who will you be able to borrow games from, who will you trade/sell/buy with? Even when folks were AWARE of alternatives, there were very practical economic incentives to choose NES.
Now, I happened to think that, overall, the NES had the best library of games, because I was only occasionally jealous or envious of the SMS games some friends had. Yes, it's true: there was a small, but loyal, support network for SMS in my area, which was cemented and nurtured by the local video store that carried a great selection of SMS titles. The owner had kids, so he was buying the games for his kids to play, then he rented them when they got bored. As a parent now, I would love the opportunity to do something like this! Secretly, of course, I wanted to play ALL games on all platforms, including computers, but I rationalized away the envy/frustration by saying, "The NES is the best compromise, considering the serious lack of money."
But, honestly, outside of a small cadre of SMS fans, SMS WAS NON-EXISTENT. By the time Genesis and TG-16 were out, all the SMS fans migrated to GENESIS (Sega should have called it SAVIOR, because that is how the SMS fans viewed it!)
For the record, I really liked the SMS, but did not think it was "essential". I did not feel that way about the Genesis, though. Everyone had been anticipating its release. Then a funny thing happened: I saw a few games that really appealed to me (Blazing Lazers, Legendary Axe, etc.) and suddenly I didn't care about all the practical concerns listed above: I was older, I just wanted to play this new, obscure system that intrigued me.
Genesis would have been the more practical, better choice for me (for all the reasons the NES was the best choice), but I decided to take a chance. Luckily, my younger brothers were easy to influence, and they committed all of their birthday and Xmas money to fund TG-16.
Bottom line: As soon as I got a real job, I bought an SMS and all the used carts I could find.
What was the topic?
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on March 01, 2011, 11:50:48 PM
Unfortunately not in Japan. Still have to get me that back bone adaptor and and Dragon's trap, Vigilante, rastan saga and choplifter. And FM here it comes :)
Unfortunately the fm sound, if it's actually in the rom, doesn't work. The Brazillian version (Monica de Turma?) does have fm sound though, but it doesn't sound complete. Some of the PSG channels haven't been replaced.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 02, 2011, 12:34:22 AM
Strange, I have proof (even the sound files) of Dragon's Trap in FM. And I've read that if Dragon's Trap is played on a FM moded oversea sms or Japanese sms, the FM sound will be enabled!!?
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on March 02, 2011, 05:08:51 AM
Strange, I have proof (even the sound files) of Dragon's Trap in FM. And I've read that if Dragon's Trap is played on a FM moded oversea sms or Japanese sms, the FM sound will be enabled!!?
The fm tracks do exist and I assume that they were done by the original developer. But just like Phantasy Star, the North American version doesn't produce any fm in my Mark III SMS and I'm pretty sure that I tried it in my Gam*boy that has working fm sound. But like I said, the Brazillian version works fine.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on March 02, 2011, 05:34:00 AM
Saying the Master System hurt US TG sales, is like saying the Atari 7800 hurt it's sales. I mean the 7800 did have Mario, Donkey Kong, Pac Man and NINJA GOLF.
Actually come to think of it, I'm a little shocked the only Pacman game we got was that side scrolling SMB wannabee..... thats too bad.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on March 02, 2011, 10:46:51 AM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each otheras the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo.
Besides the games we've talked about, the TG16 and SMS have a surprising amount in common that makes them worthy of comparison. Unlike their competitors, they're both unusual in that they don't fit neatly into the categories of "console generations" that has been widely adopted in recent years. Wikipedia and Gamefaqs might list them as forth- and third-generation consoles respectfully, but things aren't black and white and they co-existed for most of the same years.
Dude! "next generation game system" adapted in recent years? and I dont care about what was sold in japan This is about us sales. and yes nec did fit in cause thats the reason why the bit was started. Ur not making sense
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 02, 2011, 02:35:23 PM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each otheras the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo.
Besides the games we've talked about, the TG16 and SMS have a surprising amount in common that makes them worthy of comparison. Unlike their competitors, they're both unusual in that they don't fit neatly into the categories of "console generations" that has been widely adopted in recent years. Wikipedia and Gamefaqs might list them as forth- and third-generation consoles respectfully, but things aren't black and white and they co-existed for most of the same years.
Dude! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn_xaQ5d5gY "next generation game system" adapted in recent years? and I dont care about what was sold in japan This is about us sales. and yes nec did fit in cause thats the reason why the bit was started. Ur not making sense
Your arguments will be stronger if you take the time to communicate effectively - spell, capitalize, use punctuation, and get your remarks outside of the quote.
The history from Japan is relevant because when our early Turbografx games-to-be were first programmed on the PCE they were contemporaries of the 8-bit era. When JJ and Jeff was made there was no Super Famicom or Mega Drive and NEC, Sega, and SNK weren't slapping the numbers "16" or "24" on their consoles anything.
A couple years later, NEC brings the PCE to the U.S. It's not 1987 anymore: the NES is king, the SMS has just been superseded by the Genesis, and they can't just market it as a cool new console like they did in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). No, it has to have "16" in the name and be a "next generation" cut above the current crop because the Genesis just launched two weeks before them with "16-bit" plastered across the front. That's fine for marketing, but the the first wave of orange-label games they're rushing over from Japan are one- or two-years-old. Some, like Keith Courage, look truly next generation. Others, like Vigilante and World Court Tennis, look like souped-up 8-bit games IMO.
Furthermore, four of those first-impression, orange-label games are already available on the SMS which North Americans are rapidly writing off.
So, to summarize your points that I'm trying to address: 1) Did the pre-existing SMS games impact the TG16? That's up for debate.
2) Is the TG16 strictly a "16-bit, forth-generation" console? In my opinion, no, it spanned the third and forth generations.
3) Why are we comparing the SMS and TG16? I hope I've made that painfully clear.
As for the "console generation" terminology, I'm not talking about advertising. I'm talking about the neat little packages of "third generation", "forth generation", etc. nonsense fans have grouped consoles into on wikipedia and elsewhere. I never heard anyone refer to these categories until five or ten years ago.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 02, 2011, 03:26:36 PM
2) Is the TG16 strictly a "16-bit, forth-generation" console? In my opinion, no, it spanned the third and forth generations.
I have to kinda agree with that opinion. Nevertheless it was still enough powerfull that it could hold up with the "real forth-gen." players, and even surpass them in certain segments.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Arkhan on March 02, 2011, 04:57:07 PM
I find it hard for the SMS to beat out the NES, personally.
I blame the lack of RPG presence.
Granted the SMS had a terribly small selection of RPGs, but the ones it did have were very good.
I'd say the following games hold their own against the NES equivalents. Phantasy Star = Final Fantasy Ultima IV = Ultima Avatar Golden Axe Warrior < Zelda 1 Ys > Dragon Warrior Miracle Warriors = ?
Throw in psuedo rpgs like Lord of the Sword, Golvellius, Spellcaster, Gauntlet, Kings Quest, Populous, Dragon Crystal, and Alex Kidd High-Tech and the SMS wasn't that bad.
The Ultima comparison kinda doesn't work for me since the two are radically. frigging. different. I like them both really, but if I am going to play the PC style ones, id rather play on the PC....
anyway, yes it wasn't that bad but it had no longstanding series. FF had 3 games, DQ had 4 games, Wizardry 1 and 2 happened, we got THREE ultima games....Scheherezade, ghost lion, and then if you count Japan there was a bunch of other stuff....
I will say Golvellius pummels Zelda though.
There weren't enough console-style RPGs though. and it really sucked, because PS proved it could be done amazingly on the system.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: lord_cack on March 02, 2011, 11:03:07 PM
I think its kind of funny we would speculate weather or not the SMS impacted the sales of the Turbo. Honestly, the point is really null. The NES and Nintendo's legal practices had the only real impact on the scene at the time, in my opinion anyway. The thought that the SMS effected sales of the Turbo at all are quite small I would think.
The NES had the variety, with most of the games, as mentioned in previous posts, either being equal too or better than the ones available on other systems at the time. They had the best Sports titles (thats ALL sports titles Football, Golf, Tennis, Basket.... you get the point), with the exception of Phantasy Star, the NES has the best RPG's, certainly the best Action and Adventure games. You see where this goes from here.
Even if arguments could be made comparing the quality of the titles, the quantity can't be compared. But even then the last nail in the coffin so to speak is price. The best games for the NES where easily accessible with the purchase of the core unit alone, because thats all there was. You didn't have to buy more accessories (CD-ROMS etc.). While that also holds true with the SMS, the titles just weren't there, nor were they as widely available.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: grahf on March 02, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Since everyone here is from a different area, It's interesting hearing the different stories. When I was growing up, I had one friend with an SMS. He mentioned a few times how awesome it was, but didn't really try to champion it or anything. In my neighborhood (Northeast Philadelphia) the NES was the undisputed king. Esteban pretty much nailed the reasons why.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Bonknuts on March 03, 2011, 03:15:31 AM
Quote
Besides the games we've talked about, the TG16 and SMS have a surprising amount in common that makes them worthy of comparison. Unlike their competitors, they're both unusual in that they don't fit neatly into the categories of "console generations" that has been widely adopted in recent years. Wikipedia and Gamefaqs might list them as forth- and third-generation consoles respectfully, but things aren't black and white and they co-existed for most of the same years.
What? Since when didn't the SMS fit into the '8bit' generation? Or whatever generation you want to call it. The same generation as the NES. The difference between the SMS and the NES is even less than the difference between the Genesis and the SNES. Overlapping years means nothing. The MD came out in 1988. Famicom was still strong and '8bit' software was still being developed as well as the primary share of the market. Even more so over here in N/A. Following your logic, the only true 16bit console would have been the Super Famicom.
Quote
A couple years later, NEC brings the PCE to the U.S. It's not 1987 anymore: the NES is king, the SMS has just been superseded by the Genesis, and they can't just market it as a cool new console like they did in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). No, it has to have "16" in the name and be a "next generation" cut above the current crop because the Genesis just launched two weeks before them with "16-bit" plastered across the front. That's fine for marketing, but the the first wave of orange-label games they're rushing over from Japan are one- or two-years-old. Some, like Keith Courage, look truly next generation. Others, like Vigilante and World Court Tennis, look like souped-up 8-bit games IMO.
I don't think NEC decided to tack on "-16" to the turbografx label just because the US Genesis was released two weeks earlier with such the branding. Marketing is always looking for an edge in the form of a phrase or word, so show the difference of their product. Sega used '16bit' because that was the obvious difference. In reality, it was raw clock speed that was the real difference (at least for CPU). The NES could have very well used a 16bit processor at 1.79mhz. It wouldn't have changed anything. There would still be flicker, limited colors, limited graphics via small cache of tiles/sprites. The term "16bit graphics" was also a marketing term. There were not literal 16bit graphics. The term is an extension of the branding of the generation. And the original Megadrive had big bold letters declaring "16bit" right on the console. It started in Japan, it just didn't have much of an effect I guess.
I never understand why people have such a hard time fitting the PCE/TG16 into the generation after NES/SMS. The hardware easily puts it there: - over 4 times the speed of the NES/SMS - 18 times the amount of unique colors onscreen (without tricks) compared to the NES, 15x more than the SMS - 8 times total the amount of cached tiles compared to the NES and SMS - 4 times the BG map size in vram than the NES, 8 times that of the SMS - over 7 times the full screen sprite coverage compared to the NES and SMS - 4 times the amount of sprite pixel per scanline bandwidth of the NES and SMS - 16 times the sprite size (single sprite) of the NES and SMS - 32 times the cart size without a mapper (stock) than the NES and SMS, 64 times if you count the whole address range. - 8 times the size of the master palette of the NES and SMS - Full real supported X/Y/Palette/other video functions *per* scanline in a proper (non hackish) setup. NES (hackish) and SMS have neither - Full bandwidth to VRAM (read or write) during active display. NES and SMS have neither - 7 times the vram bandwidth (local memory to vram transfer) of the NES and SMS. - 5 times the amount of direct pixels in sprites than the NES, same on the SMS though - 8 times the number of total subpalettes of the NES, 16 times that of the SMS - 4 times the number of sprite subpalettes of the NES, 16 times that of the SMS - 4 times the number of BG subpalettes of the NES, 8 times that of the SMS - 2 times the frequency resolution of the NES audio range, 4 times that of the SMS (PSG) - 6 times the number of digital PCM channels than the NES, SMS has no digital PCM channels - Real stereo with panning for all audio channels and a master one as well. NES and SMS are mono - Easily over 100 waveform definitions (user defined waveform playback) for all channels compared to the SMS 1 (PSG) and the NES 4 (3 square type and 1 triangle)
The SMS is only a step up in the amount of colors per cell (tile cell or sprite cell) over the NES. It's inferior in a lot of other ways: no sprite table DMA to vram compared to the NES, less audio channels/no PCM channel/no different waveform types/less frequency range and resolution than the NES, smaller tilemap size than the NES (SMS map size is archaically small - single screen), raw cpu clock is faster on the SMS but the z80 is much slower than the 6502 - so it's the same real speed and sometimes slower, NES has vram for tile/sprite cells on the cart and can easily swap out large number of bytes in vram with just a handful of cpu cycles while the SMS has no DMA and has to manually slowly update vram. I could go on and on. The SMS has one significant increase in color over the NES and a number of inferior features compared to it as well. The SMS is in no way a transitional generation system.
Looks at the dates too: Famicom released in 1983, SMS in 1985(2 years after Famicom), PCE in 1987 (4 years after famicom), MD in 1988 (5 years after famicom, but 3 years after SMS, 1 year almost to date after the PCE). 1 year separates the MD and PCE. Not a much separates the PCE and the MD in tech specs relative to both systems compared to the Famicom and SMS. Neither of the PCE or MD completely over specs one another either. Even the Super Famicom released in 1991 doesn't *completely* over spec either the PCE or the MD, but all three over spec the Famicom and the SMS.
PCE does have more generation transitional software than the MD or SFC. But I think that's pretty common for the first system out the door. ROM speed was much faster than the NES and SMS, leading to higher prices and smaller ROM sizes. Problem is that the rom sizes didn't weren't in scaled proportion of what was needed for the scaled hardware relative to the NES and SMS. Hucards should have been a minimum of 4Mbits starting, 6mbits upper average, and 8Mbits for top tier for the first two years. That's what was need to keep in scale with the other 8bit systems. Not the usual 2Mbit and later/rarer 3Mbit the first two years. I guess NEC wanted to emphasize the CDROM addon difference. PCE's transitional feeling softs sold much more in numbers than Sega's everything but transitional feeling/playing softs.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on March 03, 2011, 03:54:25 AM
The four years released between the Famicom and the PCE (and four years between NES and TG16) right away is a big indicator. I consider the PCE as part of the generation after the NES, SMS and 7800. Not a part of it, or even borderline.
Bits don't really matter, if we went by bits the Xbox isn't in the same generation as Dreamcast, PS2 and GameCube as the Celron in it is merely 32-bit. The hardware in the PC Engine is significant enough of an upgrade for it to be closer to the Genesis or SNES than the NES or SMS.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Necromancer on March 03, 2011, 04:00:47 AM
Bits don't really matter, if we went by bits the Xbox isn't in the same generation as Dreamcast, PS2 and GameCube as the Celron in it is merely 32-bit.
The cpus in the Dreamcast and Gamecube are also 32 bit, though I agree that bits don't determine how consoles should be grouped.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: DragonmasterDan on March 03, 2011, 05:00:51 AM
The cpus in the Dreamcast and Gamecube are also 32 bit, though I agree that bits don't determine how consoles should be grouped.
Didn't the GameCube only have a 32-bit ALU? From my understanding the Gekko was a Power PC running in 64-bit mode.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: malicedoom on March 03, 2011, 05:28:10 AM
In my 3+ years at NEC, I don't ever recall us having a discussion about the Sega Master System having any sort of negative impact on the TG-16's sales.
It was the Genesis that killed us. Practically killed us outright, in fact. That and our own, shoddy marketing (and the fact we took FOREVER to port games over from Japan, didn't secure enough 'trademark' games, like Spiderman, etc.)
So many things...
:cry:
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Necromancer on March 03, 2011, 05:51:25 AM
In my 3+ years at NEC, I don't ever recall us having a discussion about the Sega Master System having any sort of negative impact on the TG-16's sales.
It was the Genesis that killed us. Practically killed us outright, in fact. That and our own, shoddy marketing (and the fact we took FOREVER to port games over from Japan, didn't secure enough 'trademark' games, like Spiderman, etc.)
So many things...
:cry:
Had NEC made up their collective mind and released the Turbo in '88 we woulda had a chance!
The Dreamcast is 128-bit The PS3 is also 128-bit
Dreamcast = PS3 :D
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 03, 2011, 06:08:45 AM
What? Since when didn't the SMS fit into the '8bit' generation?
Oops. I agree that the SMS is 8-bit generation system through and through and didn't mean to say otherwise. That said, its lifespan was remarkable and, while not particularly relevant to this topic, I find it interesting how the late-period SMS managed to port so many titles that were appearing on 16-bit platforms. I also think that the SMS and the (early) PCE games are fairly close together on the continuum of video game evolution.
In my 3+ years at NEC, I don't ever recall us having a discussion about the Sega Master System having any sort of negative impact on the TG-16's sales.
Well, there's our answer to the OP. Thanks malicedoom!
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Black Tiger on March 03, 2011, 08:01:18 AM
I find it hard for the SMS to beat out the NES, personally.
I blame the lack of RPG presence.
Granted the SMS had a terribly small selection of RPGs, but the ones it did have were very good.
I'd say the following games hold their own against the NES equivalents. Phantasy Star = Final Fantasy Ultima IV = Ultima Avatar Golden Axe Warrior < Zelda 1 Ys > Dragon Warrior Miracle Warriors = ?
Throw in psuedo rpgs like Lord of the Sword, Golvellius, Spellcaster, Gauntlet, Kings Quest, Populous, Dragon Crystal, and Alex Kidd High-Tech and the SMS wasn't that bad.
The Ultima comparison kinda doesn't work for me since the two are radically. frigging. different. I like them both really, but if I am going to play the PC style ones, id rather play on the PC....
anyway, yes it wasn't that bad but it had no longstanding series. FF had 3 games, DQ had 4 games, Wizardry 1 and 2 happened, we got THREE ultima games....Scheherezade, ghost lion, and then if you count Japan there was a bunch of other stuff....
I will say Golvellius pummels Zelda though.
There weren't enough console-style RPGs though. and it really sucked, because PS proved it could be done amazingly on the system.
Ultima IV Quest of the Avatar is the same game on SMS and NES. The main difference is that the SMS version is 16-bit quality and crushes all other versions.
As a huge RPG/questy game fan, I had more fun with SMS games than NES. FFII & III didn't make it over here, but I've played through both Famicom versions (during the 32-bit/DC generation).
I'm still amazed by comments on forums and youtube talking about how unbelievable(!) the PC Engine is as an (only!) 8-bit system. Those people refuse to judge by their eyes which class the PCE falls under, but the same people never apply the same anti-logic to the consoles mentioned above.
I also find it unusual that many people judge the PCE by the handful of it's lowelst quality games tech-wise, while at the same time championing the MD & SFC by their best games. They're basically siting crude PCE games as tech demos. That's like judging a console by Frog Feast.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 03, 2011, 10:16:39 AM
Quote from: Black Tiger
Ultima IV Quest of the Avatar is the same game on SMS and NES. The main difference is that the SMS version is 16-bit quality and crushes all other versions.
I thought the SMS version was pretty low quality even for SMS standards. Phantasy Star blows it away and I consider Phantasy Star to be 8-bit quality.
Also, are the Wii, 360 and PS3 actually 64-bit? I thought they were 32 bit. They use PowerPC variant processors.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on March 03, 2011, 10:42:34 AM
I appreciate how the SMS version stayed true to the original, but I prefer the updated out NES graphics and simplifications.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 03, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
I dunno why people keep comparing the turbo to the sms??? Maybe the east coast was different but back in the day it was either the nes or sms.. the turbob wasnt even a factor.. for me at the time. nintendo didnt have its snes out so it was the genny and turbo in compitetion with each other as the next generation. imo the sms lost to nintendo and it was a decision on buying the turbo or genny. It makes no sense for someone to think of buying a sms when the genny was in compiption w/ the turbo.
Besides the games we've talked about, the TG16 and SMS have a surprising amount in common that makes them worthy of comparison. Unlike their competitors, they're both unusual in that they don't fit neatly into the categories of "console generations" that has been widely adopted in recent years. Wikipedia and Gamefaqs might list them as forth- and third-generation consoles respectfully, but things aren't black and white and they co-existed for most of the same years.
Dude! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn_xaQ5d5gY "next generation game system" adapted in recent years? and I dont care about what was sold in japan This is about us sales. and yes nec did fit in cause thats the reason why the bit was started. Ur not making sense
Your arguments will be stronger if you take the time to communicate effectively - spell, capitalize, use punctuation, and get your remarks outside of the quote.
The history from Japan is relevant because when our early Turbografx games-to-be were first programmed on the PCE they were contemporaries of the 8-bit era. When JJ and Jeff was made there was no Super Famicom or Mega Drive and NEC, Sega, and SNK weren't slapping the numbers "16" or "24" on their consoles anything.
A couple years later, NEC brings the PCE to the U.S. It's not 1987 anymore: the NES is king, the SMS has just been superseded by the Genesis, and they can't just market it as a cool new console like they did in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). No, it has to have "16" in the name and be a "next generation" cut above the current crop because the Genesis just launched two weeks before them with "16-bit" plastered across the front. That's fine for marketing, but the the first wave of orange-label games they're rushing over from Japan are one- or two-years-old. Some, like Keith Courage, look truly next generation. Others, like Vigilante and World Court Tennis, look like souped-up 8-bit games IMO.
Furthermore, four of those first-impression, orange-label games are already available on the SMS which North Americans are rapidly writing off.
So, to summarize your points that I'm trying to address: 1) Did the pre-existing SMS games impact the TG16? That's up for debate.
2) Is the TG16 strictly a "16-bit, forth-generation" console? In my opinion, no, it spanned the third and forth generations.
3) Why are we comparing the SMS and TG16? I hope I've made that painfully clear.
As for the "console generation" terminology, I'm not talking about advertising. I'm talking about the neat little packages of "third generation", "forth generation", etc. nonsense fans have grouped consoles into on wikipedia and elsewhere. I never heard anyone refer to these categories until five or ten years ago.
I agree with you 100%that the turbo isnt just a fourth generation system. You would have to be crazy to say that. I know when the pce was released in japan. All Im saying is when they released it in the us they were competing with the genny. So, Your basicly saying they brought the turbo over here a little late and they had to compete? Thats fine and dandy. I agree. But remember, the vast general public had no knowledge of the pce or when it was released. So therefore, People werent like for example: "ohhh look another 8 bit system...... boy that doesnt compete with sms" and " boy thats lame........ all it has is a bunch of sega games and old games to boot" "Im not going to buy that when I already have a sms" "all it is is a old pce" They were looking at it as a new system. Not an old pce with a new shell on it. Especially with it having a 16 sticker slapped on it. Therefore, To me it makes no sense to compare it to a sms from the general publics prespective back in 1989. I think Im making this painfully clear. We were told by the mouths of nec that it was the "next generation of gaming" and logically to the ignorant consumer that ment it wasnt an old system and it stands up with the genny. nothing to do with sms. If it was marketed as an old system to compete with the sms then yes. but it wasnt.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Mishran on March 03, 2011, 12:10:45 PM
I used to own the game Rampage for the SMS and played it with a friend on his NES. After playing the superior SMS version with close to arcade graphics and all three monsters the inferior NES version burned my eyes and impaired my higher brain functions.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Tatsujin on March 03, 2011, 12:25:58 PM
lol mishran. So did your brain recover?
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: Mishran on March 03, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
Read my Theron Quest topic and see for yourself. ](*,) I blame Rampage for my below level IQ. I even blame my below par looks on it cause it makes me feel better. Damn NES...
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: sheath on June 21, 2011, 05:47:43 AM
I was looking to see if anybody was selling PCE Outrun and found this instead. I owned a Master System and NES before I got my TG16 back in 1990, I think I might have sold both of them to be able to afford actually. I never did pick up Space Harrier or R-Type for the Turbo even though I really liked how they looked, especially R-Type. I guess I had just played myself out of them on the Master System by then.
At no point did I feel like I was playing an "8-Bit" system back in the day though, games like Bonks Adventure, Ninja Spirit and Legendary Axe seemed every bit as "16-Bit" to me as the Genesis games I was playing from 1989-90. The increasing emphasis on CD-ROM games after 1990 is what slowly killed my interest in Turbo gaming and resulted in me selling the system and what handful of games I had bought in late 1992. I just couldn't afford the CD unit back then. I'm glad my DUO/R gives me access to all of these great games today though.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: vestcoat on June 21, 2011, 11:32:55 AM
At no point did I feel like I was playing an "8-Bit" system back in the day though, games like Bonks Adventure, Ninja Spirit and Legendary Axe seemed every bit as "16-Bit" to me as the Genesis games I was playing from 1989-90.
Definitely. The problem is people's memories become rusty and they think "16-bit = Super Mario Kart/Sonic", forgetting that the generation started several years before those games. Then they compare 1989 TG16 titles to 1992 NES games and 1993 SNES games and say they look 8-bit.
Quote
The increasing emphasis on CD-ROM games after 1990 is what slowly killed my interest in Turbo gaming and resulted in me selling the system and what handful of games I had bought in late 1992. I just couldn't afford the CD unit back then.
Ditto. It really sucked saving paper-route money for three months to buy a $99 TG16 only realize all of the games I wanted to play (Ys, Cosmic Fantasy, etc), were on the $350 CD player.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: thrush on June 21, 2011, 11:43:46 AM
The problem is people's memories become rusty and they think "16-bit = Super Mario Kart/Sonic", forgetting that the generation started several years before those games. Then they compare 1989 TG16 titles to 1992 NES games and 1993 SNES games and say they look 8-bit.
I could not agree more! I think, too, as time goes by people begin to lump games together in a vague "era", forgetting how much changed between 89 and 92, or even between 89 and 90.
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on June 21, 2011, 12:12:47 PM
:P
Title: Re: Sega Master System games: Did it hurt the Turbo?
Post by: turbogrfxfan on June 21, 2011, 12:14:21 PM