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NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG/PCE Repair/Mod Discussion => Topic started by: BlueBMW on March 07, 2011, 05:48:40 PM
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There are a few major failures that occur with Turbo CD and PCE CDROM2 units. Historically, the most common failure has been the laser deteriorating to the point where it will no longer read. The repair for this has been to replace the laser assembly which is still readily available for a reasonable price.
Recently however, many have been experiencing two related issues. One is a CDROM unit that will not start up at all. Meaning the disc wont spin, the laser wont turn on, nothing happens at all except for a "0" on the readout. The other issue is that some units will require a significant warm up time. These two issues have been traced to the now infamous "middle gear" on the laser sled mechanism. The gear will either seize up on its axle causing the warm up issue, or teeth will break off the gear rendering the entire unit inoperative.
In a unit where the gear has not broken yet, it has been determined that a relubrication using a safe plastic lubricant on the middle gear axle can extend the life of the unit and correct the warm up issue. This however is not a permanent fix as the gears are still deteriorating and will inevitably break.
Many efforts have been made to find or manufacture replacement middle gears. As of yet, none have succeeded in providing a cost effective solution. Recently however, the tech crew here at PCEFX have been considering alternate methods of repairing this problem.
Finally, just today a completely new solution utilizing a not so new idea has been developed. This process is currently undergoing extensive testing, but so far has proven reliable....
Introducing the CDROM3 Upgrade
This system eliminates the gear system completely and replaces it with a smooth and quiet belt system. The major parts have been sourced. The total cost of this repair will be under $10 for the parts. This repair requires some skill to implement, and so should be done by one of the tech crew here. We are currently testing this solution and also searching for better components, although the components we are using now are proving to be effective!
Soon this repair service will be officially offered at a very low cost to PCEngineFX members in good standing.
Here are some pictures!
(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac253/bmcdanold/Repair/pullymk2.jpg)
(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac253/bmcdanold/Repair/newfix.jpg)
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Very cool! I'm sure this will make a lot of people happy!
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Gentlemen behold indeed! Looks great BMW. The simplicity and resourcefullness of eliminating the gear friction is a superior fix. Bravo :clap:
We have the best tech team here! Soon all these tech problems will be a thing of the past. All of us working together can do wonders!
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I can't wait, I have this zombie TG16 CD rom just sitting here. It does have the gear intact though it seems dead, i.e. the laser doesn't even move nor does the CD spin. I was going to attempt to buy a new laser and replace it hoping for the best, but I wonder should I wait until this gear replacement service is available.
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This is excellent. A wonderful solution! This completely eliminates the need for the gear-driven system. :clap:
:mrgreen:
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Well damn, how about that. Nice work guys. This is such a simple but elegant solution to the gear sourcing problem.
I made a random comment a few days ago about how belt drives are usually the ones to wear out after 10+ years, but at least those can be replaced. The Famicom disk system is a good example. Pretty much all of those have bad belts now, but a new belt can be bought for a few dollars (and should last another decade).
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The beamer has become a master's apprentice cheers!!!
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Fantastic, gents! Hopefully you'll be saving many TG-CDs from the scrap heap, providing years of additional OBEY time. :clap:
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I applaud all the work being done here and love the new belt drive concept. Does it work well? I'd be curious to hear what it sounds like when running. However, I also want to say that I had my CD drive fixed by that guy on ebay a while ago and I have not had any problems at all. So the two gear fix definitely works without any issues whatsoever, at least the way he does it. I understand that maybe people here do not like him because of not sharing his idea or showing how he gets it done but it is a solid fix in my opinion. Maybe other people here can figure out what else needs to be adjusted or changed to get the gear idea working?
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The dislike comes from the ebay guy charging so much. My fix is cheap and will remain cheap. If someone wants to be a test unit with this system please send me a PM.
As far as noise... its dead silent.
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that's some voodoo shit right here! haha just kidding you guys are awesome! :)
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As far as noise... its dead silent.
:shock: Well, I daresay you may have IMPROVED the design! An engineering feat!
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Well, damn!
I made a comment in reference to this in another thread before I got to this one, and here is more of the same.
Please see my other post, which references replacing the entire mechanism.
More pictures of the whole mechanism would be appreciated (in a similar detail/closeup level as these current pics)
Charlie
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awesome developments guys! I'm all for the belt cdrom, whatever extends our usage of the pc engine or turbo cd is all that matters!
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This is, indeed, promising news. :)
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Very nice indeed. Hopefully the belt doesn't disintegrate like the FDS belt does over time.
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Very nice indeed. Hopefully the belt doesn't disintegrate like the FDS belt does over time.
Any belt is going to deteriorate over time. That's unavoidable. But once the gears have been modified replacing the belt should be an easy thing, so long as there are available belts of an appropriate size.
How is the belt being chosen? Is it a standard size that will be easy to procure? Are the belts properly made to resist premature stretching? I realize that them stretching over time is pretty unavoidable, just like their structural deterioration, but it would be nice to know that they were belts built for this kind of purpose and not just glorified rubber bands.
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If the belts are easy to source, maybe it would be nice to put a spare in a small ziploc inside the cd-rom unit case for future replacement. If they are stored in some talc powder it would preserve them for a long time like a turntable belt.
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The belts we're using now are adequate, but I'm searching for better ones. I'm working on streamlining the parts so I can offer a kit with extra belts if needed. Still should be less than $10 a kit
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You're a real asset to the community Blue.
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"CDROM3"....love it
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This news is flippin' sweet, don't get me wrong, but I still hope Official Ninja is able to make a replacement gear. It would be really nice to have both options.
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I think our goal here is to offer as many solutions as possible. I hope to put the cdrom3 solution into large scale production within the next few weeks
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Gee, all I need now is a Japanese CD-ROM + super system card or super CD-ROM unit and I'll be set.
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Gee, all I need now is a Japanese CD-ROM + super system card or super CD-ROM unit and I'll be set.
I've got a spare pce system 3.0 card if you need it. Just let me know!
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I hope to put the cdrom3 solution into large scale production within the next few weeks
Sign me up for some them. And let me know if you need the $$ ahead of time.
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Gee, all I need now is a Japanese CD-ROM + super system card or super CD-ROM unit and I'll be set.
I've got a spare pce system 3.0 card if you need it. Just let me know!
I'll be interested as soon as I can find a reasonably priced CD unit for my PCE Core.
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Gee, all I need now is a Japanese CD-ROM + super system card or super CD-ROM unit and I'll be set.
I've got a spare pce system 3.0 card if you need it. Just let me know!
I'll be interested as soon as I can find a reasonably priced CD unit for my PCE Core.
Ahh so you have an IFU already? Maybe we could work a deal for you to torture test one of these repaired CDROMs for me :P
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Let me rephrase. I have only a poor little Core. It wants some CD-ROM love, but it doesn't yet have it. That said, if anyone wants to equip me with a "refurb" I've love to take it high-speed through some turns (of a CD spindle).
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==>"CDROM3"....love it<==
Maybe not quite. Sony had an almost identical belt drive on their legacy (VERY legacy) portable CD players. Abandon because of belt breakage....although I would imagine that belt technology has improved a lot since then. And, of course, us TG lovers would have no problem replacing said belt ourselves whenever necessary, so breakage is really only a small problem.
Maybe it's "CDROM 0"?
Charlie
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Naw, what with versioning trends these days it would be more like CD-ROM2.1259.
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Where do I sign up!?
I have 3 dead drives in various condition :/
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Nah! "2.1259" is too mundane. Maybe...."pi", or "e"...or how about "log {something}"?
Charlie
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How about CDROM^3ln(e)
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I think CD-ROMCD-ROMCD-ROM would be most appropriate.
Word up, as it were. :)
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I think CD-ROMCD-ROM would be sufficient, because then you could put your rapper mathematician voice on and say "CD-ROM to tha CD-ROM, yo!"
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"Word up, as it were"
Ouch!
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"Word up, as it were"
Ouch!
Hahahhaa, I'm glad someone was paying attention :)
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Any new developments?
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I've found some better belts and have them on order. Should have an update soon!
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jut got a cdrom and might need it repaired too, looking forward to your progress! keep up the good work guys.
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Just got a CDrom2 from HK and opend it up....man are those gears small (lol) looking on your pics they look a lot bigger than that.
Well anyway when you have made a kit BlueBMW sign me up for two!! got another on the way from JP both are "junk"
Bought them with the thought of repairing them one to use and one spare.
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Hello all, I actually found this forum because my TurboCD unit has this infamous "warm-up" problem and a quick search brought me here. If someone has a personal repair service up and running yet, and it's available to noobs here, let me know :)
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I recently got myself a used pcengine CD drive and it is displaying signs of this warm up issue. The problem is definitely not the gears since they move freely every time I turn on the drive. Pretty much what happens is on a cold start the drive will play an Audio CD no problem. I can change to any track with ease and have no skipping whatsoever. However when I hit start on my pcengine to play a CD game it just turns off over and over as it tries to read the CD. After about 3-5 minutes of doing this it starts to work just fine. Any ideas anyone on what the problem could be?
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any way to make this set fit?
this is a pioneer DEH-1000 car cd player sled drive
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PM'd ya Blue! :-$ :)
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This is awesome news! knowing that it can be fixed pretty easily gives a sigh of relief. Word up!
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Awesome news indeed. I been wanting to possibly purchase a Turbo Grafx 16/CD set-up, but held back due to all the issues they had now. This makes me change my mind. I always thought they looked cool the way they bundled together.
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Man, this is awesome :D I just got a briefcase system where the seller claimed it was a faulty laser.
Not only did I pick up a laser for £6 (well fingers crossed), I turned it on yesterday, and it's a motor issue! Even easier! As soon as Blue gets this going, I'm set 8)
Of course, it may have a laser issue too...
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ive been keeping this under my hat for a while. but now with all the generosity being shown on here and sharing i feel like its ok for me to show it.
like bmw said these are new developments to fix a common problem. i had developed a 2 gear solution or zombie gear last year and only offered the repair to a couple of people here. i gave up on developing the second gear further as it gave me problems and was just difficult in general for me. if its difficult for me in the slightest i cannot offer it to clients. So i abandoned it and developed this,gentlemen behold......THE PHAT GEAR!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/jetbue7/Image2.jpg)
its already been tested for months on multiple cd/pce systems and for a handful of customers. this fix is ready to go.
this is a drop in solution requiring no modification at all and is not an improvement like the pully and belt drive or a second gear. its exactly the same as the old middle gear. This will solve stuck gears,fear of moving a stuck gear,broken gear and other problems. does not cure laser death. does make it sound a bit loud but it does no harm to the machine and is the price to pay for resurrection.
kits will be provided as well as the actual change service soon but i doubt anyone will be interested in this.
this may be my last project here as there's no more pce related problems to conquer. and of course as the universal law goes,the one who develops it will never benefit from it. almost kinda pointless because it costed me a small fortune and more important vast amounts of time to develop and get right but its done because i wish it so.
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Leave it to chop to blow my mind! When/If my Turbo CD bites it I may consider this.
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How much for the gear? I am always trying to find cheaper and easier options.
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So this is brass? I really have to wonder how long that one nylon geer will be able to deal with that. I would certainly keep it well lubricated.
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chris the gears are 1.99 each at hobby stores and easily available,only problem is they do need to be worked on first. any fix i do must meet criteria where its cheap as possible,from easy to obtain materials,and easy enough a small chipmunk can do it. I will pm you later with deets and post them on here when i make my for sale thread.
zeta they are curved and polished at the teeth to prevent any friction whatsoever or biting into the plastic. The main reason i used soft copper gears because they are easier to work with than with plastic. heres a pic of plastic proto:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/jetbue7/phatgear1.jpg)
cons of using plastic gears are they are not found easily in the teeth,dimension and pitch of the hole. i had to make those 2 gears there. Ideally if 2 gears made this way professionally would be nice but i dont have the money to make any. but if they are plastic the third gear may shatter all over again after time. Alot of pressure is put on that tiny middle gear.
pros of using soft copper is i can drill each hole myself and all it needs is good lubricant and will last for years on end if not forever. the copper is a little more stronger than a hard plastic gear anyway. Ive ruined many a copper gear with just the brute force of my hands getting them to fit :oops:
these are remote control car gears so they have to be able to survive much punishment. Its not unheard of mixing plastic with metal gears with the cars and other remote control devices. Thats what this basically is like a remote control car but it plays pce!
more info soon :wink:
update:
gears on sale in the sale thread https://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=11677.0
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wow the phat gear looks like it would be very sturdy and ensure many many yrs of obeying to come! you are just amazing Chop! :)
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About time you announce this gear fix chop but congrats any ways :clap:
With the fix you cooked up it does gives me a reason to hang onto the,TG16+Turbocd i have.
For awhile there i was debating if i was gonna keep turbo-cd or not due to the gear issue.
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great stuff there! the stuff of legends!
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looks really good. I am loooking forward to trying to bring my cdrom2 back to life with this fix.
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Thats fantastic Chop. Looks like a great fix. My brother and I cast a copy of the gear with resin. It didn't work. Although it looked like maybe we could improve it we lost interest in the project because of life circumstances. I'm glad to see a fix to this issue!
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Thats fantastic Chop. Looks like a great fix. My brother and I cast a copy of the gear with resin. It didn't work. Although it looked like maybe we could improve it we lost interest in the project because of life circumstances. I'm glad to see a fix to this issue!
Official Ninja, we appreciate you guys trying!
It seems like the only sure way to reproduce the original gears would be to have a true injection mold made for them. Even a small MUD type mold (a small mold designed for rapid prototyping of parts) would still probably run around $4K to have built. If I only I was still making injection molds for a living.. this would have been done by now!
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A little update info here:
Today I took two CDROM2s, one with a broken gear, the other with a surprisingly good original gear (still functional! wow!) and installed a Keith Courage gear into one, and a Chop gear into the other. The job took about 10 minutes for the keith courage gear and maybe 8 minutes for the Chop gear. End result, both CDROMs work perfectly! I noticed the first time I used the Chop gear that the system made a little more noise when seeking with the laser. I wanted to compare the Keith gear to the Chop gear as far as noise. So far as I can tell, both produce about the same noise level as each other. While louder than original, both of these solutions work great!
Update on belt drive:
You'd think it'd be easy to find a good steady supply of pulleys for the belt drive... not so much hehe. I have found several sets of pulleys that work, and I found some belts that were close in size, but not quite small enough. I'll continue to work on the belt drive for anyone interested. The only benefit of the belt drive over the other gear solutions is the noise level which is much much lower with the belt drive. The downside with the belt drive is the install is tedious and time consuming. You need to remove the whole laser sled worm gear and press the pulley onto it. You need to file away some clearance for that pulley, and then you need to remove the center gear post and fit the second pulley to the motor drive spindle. Then pop the belt on. Lastly you need to modify the metal clip that puts tension on the laser sled worm gear. You have to have not to much, but not too little tension. Too little and the laser will be much more susceptible to interuptions / skips due to vibration. Too much tension and the belt drive will not be able to turn the sled rod.
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Good info. This is great, not too long ago we had no gear solutions and now we have two replacement gear solutions to choose from.
Did you find a noticeable decrease in load time that 'Keith Courage' suggested to have with his single gear replacement?
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Good info. This is great, not too long ago we had no gear solutions and now we have two replacement gear solutions to choose from.
Did you find a noticeable decrease in load time that 'Keith Courage' suggested to have with his single gear replacement?
I dont regularly use a turbo CD for play, so I couldnt compare it very well. But it seemed to load quick enough :D I didnt notice a load wait time, so i guess that means it was pretty fast!
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well firts of all hello im edu from spain im video game collector since 1990 and i read this forum alot to find solution to some nec system i have and after some years i think i can bring back to life some cd rom units when i read this post and i try this mod on mine using my own pieces because here no body make a guide or something but i have some problems well the disc spin and i can use cd music and i can hear music in headphones and change tracks no problem but when i instlla cd games dosent work the disc spin but can not read data some timeas read some but just main screen of game or have wierd graphics so i think the solution i made is not enought acurate to read data for run games maeby to fast or to slow can some body helP. (any way i found a compani here in spain can make pastic geras i sent mine to make copys then they will sent me prices and if some body are interested i can sell to anybody same price than i pay to factory plus shiping rates) but firts i need to know prices and check if workin as soon as i got new info i will post here.
picture here:
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1301/lafotoco.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/lafotoco.jpg/)
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if the data is weak and wont read it can be 2 things. bad laser or you need to adjust the pots. if its the unit you have pictured there sometimes after a belt or gear change you need to adjust the pots. i don't really have a general way to change the pots just turn the first 3 pots on the left until you get results. also before you adjust them take note where they originally where and work from there turning ne at a time.
this is how i take note and find is the best combination:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/jetbue7/pots.jpg
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Are any of these methods available yet?
Also could orthodontic elastic be used for the belt? These come in about the right size in varying degrees of elasticity.
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Chop's gears and Keith Courage's gears are working solutions that are readily available. Contact either chop5 or Keith Courage as I'm sure they'll sell you a replacement gear / gears.
I haven't spent much time on the belt stuff as there have been a lot other projects demanding time, but eventually I'll figure out a good source of parts. With the two gear solutions out there already though, it might not be necessary.
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Just popping in for the latest developments in this issue/fix.
First let me say that I think it's beyond awesome that as late as 2011, there are people willing fix an issue with this age old hardware (we're talking the very first disc based console here :)). I haven't been able to play my PC Engine CD-ROM games for several years, and I seriously miss them. I actually passed up on buying Nexzr for a decent price because I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to play it.
A friend helped me pinpoint the issue a couple of years ago, and there's really no doubt, once we found out that damned tiny rubber gear is missing a tooth. I'm amazed I was actually able to play a few seconds of CD audio despite this. At the time things were looking really grim, considering I probably wouldn't be able to find a replacement gear anywhere other than salvaging it from another CD-ROM2 unit, and buying a broken one of those, I bet there'd be a pretty big chance the problem was the same.
The same guy then discovered this forum thread, and it seriously made my day! Now we both want one of those replacement gears. :)
Reading through the thread, it seems the best fix is Keith or Chop's replacement gears? As far as I can tell, Keith's is able to speed up loading times, too? That does sound really sweet! I've sent you both a PM regarding it, hope you don't mind.
The belt solution looks very nice too, but I don't think I have the guts to modify my system that much. :)
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There is no best solution. There are pros and cons to both. It's more of personal preference really. Chop sent me a set of gears to try out and they work well. I just use the gears I found basically because I am more familiar with the process.