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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: ddd1234 on March 20, 2011, 09:14:02 AM
Title: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 20, 2011, 09:14:02 AM
It seems like all of you are hardcore Pc-Engine fans. For some, It's their favorite 16-bit/8-bit system.
But why this fascination with the Pc-engine and not other 16-bit mammoths?
As someone said: "Well, the PC Engine does target a specific demographic, as most of the titles are shooters, arcade ports, and 8 bitesque titles with better graphics."
Why do you guys choose such a obscure and "niche" driven system over the Genesis and Snes. I mean, the other two gave you wide variety of games in almost every category.
Share with us....
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: incrediblehark on March 20, 2011, 11:07:02 AM
There is a wide variety of genres for the pc engine, and it beat out the genesis / megadrive in japan in its heyday. and a lot of the ports were better than other consoles.
if you play the pc engine / turbografx you get drawn in, its like an itch you just have to keep scratching. Always coming back for more. Some people around here might say you "obey" it. But I'll leave that explanation to them ;)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 20, 2011, 11:09:05 AM
I am fascinated with both the PCE and the Genesis. The SNES is cool, too, but it just isn't as interesting for some reason I can't put my finger on.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: bartre on March 20, 2011, 11:34:24 AM
honestly, for me it's the sound and visuals. all three major 16 bit systems have good things about them, it's just that the pce did the sensory pleasing the best for me. SNES is definitely last for me, the sound you get from it is fine, but it just never clicked with me like the genny's did
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on March 20, 2011, 11:38:54 AM
Things I love: ZX Spectrum, SMS, PCE, Mega Drive, Amiga...all great and all been a big influence on my life.
I guess the PCE was just positioned at the perfect time in my teenage years that it had the most long-lasting impact. It's also an underdog (at least from our perspective in the west) and that has an added appeal.
Oh, and Ys on CD-Rom. That did it for me.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 20, 2011, 01:08:36 PM
I really like the music on the PCE. It has a very pleasing sound. I would kill for a flash cart or CD with just the music from all of the HuCard games in a sound test-like manner that I could play through my real system (I automatically dismiss all recordings from emulators just for the fact that they weren't made by the real thing).
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: turbogrfxfan on March 20, 2011, 02:03:09 PM
It was a system all its own imo. before snes there was the nes, before the genny there was the sms. It just was something new to me. hueys/cds system. I suppose I just got sucked in with the games it has. Now a days the replay value of the games are insane and there are alot of different types of games and styles of games to keep you interested for a very long time.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on March 20, 2011, 02:10:23 PM
Instead of pasting mini-walls of text, check out my comments about various game systems here: http://www.chrismcovell.com/Archive/index.html
I wrote them in 2000 or so, and still feel the same way, basically.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: turbokon on March 20, 2011, 02:21:25 PM
It's kind of hard to explain for me. We had a tg16 as a kid but then again we also had a nes and snes. For some reason, I'm just drawn toward the turbo even as an adult. I like every thing about it, the hardwares, the games, and how the games comes in (size of a credit card for god sake in a cd case). Plus the turbo made me a long life shooter fans. The other systems doesn't even come close.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on March 20, 2011, 02:44:17 PM
I like all the Japanese 8 and 16 bit systems, and Own them all except the Master system and Sega CD. PC engine as a family is by far my favorite for so many reason.
I like the sound better on most games. The sound on the genesis is pretty atrocious and the snes's synthesis while very good is very distinct and not always pleasing to me.
I also prefer the visuals. PC engine games tend to have very clean and sharp looking visuals compared to somewhat muddier looking sprites on the snes and Genesis.
CD sound and full screen animated cinemas blow away the cinematics on the other 2 systems, though the Sega CD is on par.
The actual physical design. Consistently most of the versions of PC engine, and Duo have been ultra sexy. Can't beat the simple beauty of the original white one Same thing goes for the Hu card media. That was some futuristic stuff back in the day. The stock controllers have turbo, and some games like bonk/PC Genjin REQUIRED it to play well.
It is a good system for 90s anime fans as it had a lot of great Licensed games Like Ranma 1/2 and DBZ that DESTROY the Super famicom versions. and even had great anime spinoffs such as Sol Bianca (and not so great like Galaxy Fraulein Yuna)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nectarsis on March 20, 2011, 02:50:41 PM
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 20, 2011, 03:03:44 PM
The music is excellent. The games are arcade quality. The RPGs are awesome, and the exclusives are dope.
<3
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 20, 2011, 03:18:07 PM
I definitely disagree with Chris Covell's view on Magical Hats vs Decapattack. I own both and Decapattack crushes Magical Hats in all areas without exception.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 20, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
and as many already have stated, it is its special & unique game repetoire as well the niche-factor, the sharp colorfull and lovely graphics, the hardcore action in shooters, its media, some of the best ever created redbook audios in history of videogames and last but not least because its overall uberstyle of its console-variations itself.
Against such an amount of sheer uncountable awesomeness, the SFC and MD just has no bread! man.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 20, 2011, 06:37:07 PM
I love all the 16-bit era machines. Out of all the machines though the PC Engine has the best forum, so here I am.
You seem to be assuming we only do PCE. Most of us have significant collections of MD and SFC stuff in addition to PCE. Many of us also collect Neo Geo. Some of us are just crazy PCE fanboys, but that's not most of us.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: vestcoat on March 20, 2011, 06:37:33 PM
Why?
*Because it has a finite library of games. Everyone thinks this is a weakness. I think it's a strength. *It's mysterious. Leaves something to the imagination. Some to be discovered. Not the SNES crap all of my friends beat. Not the stuff I saw advertised on TV. Not the Genesis junk I saw in bargain bins. *Two generations on one console. Improved-graphics 8-bit all the way up to Neo-Geo fighters, polygons, and FMV. *Vibrant colors. *Earliest CD games = weird/awesome. *Awesome selection of RPGs + shooters.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 20, 2011, 11:35:32 PM
Well, for me it started with the GT. A lot of games magazines would cover PC Engine games as GT games, especially if they had a handhelds supplement.
So the first I'd ever heard of it was that it was the best handheld on the market (and in terms of "mainstream" handhelds, it held on to this title for years).
Then one day, I was in a well-known second-hand chain store when I saw a boxed PC Engine GT with 7 games (afterburner, PC Kid 2, Shinobi, Son Son II, Bari bari denetsu, and Cyber Core) for £70. It was my Birthday in a month, and I dropped to my knees, begging my dad for it, and he asked me if I was sure, I was, etc etc, and those 5 minutes while he went to the cash point were the longest in my life. I stood by the glass case it was in, ready to wrestle it from anyone who would take it from me.
Then we got it home, and mind == blown. Easily the best handheld. It didn't get played too much because of the battery situation (and the fact that it said not to use rechargables and I didn't want to break it. The PSU is also non-standard, so I never got one that worked right.
Then a few years later, I got a boxed core grafx (£40), and blew the PSU when I tried to plug the AC adaptor into a "shaving converter" (2 pin DC to 3 pin AC) without a stepdown. Fearing I'd blown it and with no way to play it, it went on the shelf.
Well, all these years later, I found that I can use a Mega Drive adaptor, got me a few more games, and got the Core Grafx back from my parents house, and I've got the bug again. Now I have a disposable income, I'm buying all the stuff I wanted when I was younger and on £10,000 a year (except the stuff which is £ridiculous, like a wondermega). Living the dream.
Also, aside from that, I believe it has the best versions of many games that I want to play, including New Zealand story Rainbow Islands, Pomping World, etc etc. Also, I was big into Amigas, and it seems that there is quite a correlation between the two systems - like the Amiga is the UK PC Engine in a strange way. A lot of amiga versions seem to be from PCE.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: DragonmasterDan on March 20, 2011, 11:52:55 PM
I like the SNES a lot, I think it has a great library.
The Genesis on the other hand is a bit of a different story, the Genesis had a fairly diverse library of games being released between 1989 and 1992, after that the Genesis library became overrun with 1. Ports of games that were better on SNES 2. Sports games 3. Sega first party games which varied wildly in quality.
Simply put, for the Genesis there's not enough unique software on the system for it to have any major advantage over the TG16 in my book.
Added in edit: The PC Engine itself has another huge draw which is it has a lot of games that quite frankly I've not played. I was a huge gamer in the 16-bit era, I subscribed to lots of game mags. Most Super Famicom and Genesis games worth owning made their way to the US. The PC Engine and TG16 have vastly differing libraries which leaves more to be discovered.
Also the library suits my "likes" as far as gaming goes. My three favorite Genres are J-RPGs, Platformers and Shmups. Two of the three are well represented on the PCE .
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: termis on March 21, 2011, 01:58:32 AM
To say why "not" the Genesis or SNES isn't all correct. I think vast majority of us probably enjoy all those systems.
But as for why the PCE specifically -- it was hearing redbook audio back in... 1989. Graphics and all that (at least in stillshots), the Genesis, SNES, and PCE can all be comparable to each other (waiting for x system fanboy interjection on that statement :)), but the soundtrack for good PCE CD games obviously couldn't be anywhere near mirrored by its peers until CD consoles became the norm much, much later.
Oh, and for its selection of niche import games. Besides, it sorta forces you to import these niche games if you want to get the most out of the system since the TG16's library is comparatively limited.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Necromancer on March 21, 2011, 05:11:20 AM
I'm all about the Turbob for three reasons: Bikini Girls, Hawaiian Island Girls, and Local Girls of Hawaii. :)
Seriously though, all three consoles have great games but limited funds back in the day made it impossible to get all three. The Turbob won the battle for my monies with it's bright colors and non-scratchy tunes (Genny) and not coming out too late to be relevant (SNES). Nowadays I could afford to collect for all three, but I can't devote enough time to fully enjoy what I already have and I don't want a room full of dust collectors, so I'm sticking to my guns.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Senshi on March 21, 2011, 06:05:37 AM
I have played and currently play all of these systems as well. I think the one thing I like most about the turbografx/Pc engine is the "uniqueness" of a lot of the titles. I have a limited experience with the Turbo and pc engine so for me there is a lot of games I haven't played which to me are "new". Plus I really like the variety of hardware, especially for the pc engine.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Obfuscate on March 21, 2011, 07:20:43 AM
The Turboduo was the system I had in my prime teen age years of gaming. Games like Gate of Thunder, Soldier Blade, Bomberman 93 and Final Lap Twin are the games I think of when I think of my favorite games as a kid. So the nostalgic factor for me was the main reason I started playing/collecting TG stuff again.
I also still really love playing 2D shooters and with expanding to the PCE as part of my collecting I have so many new games to me I've never had the chance to try. Playing PCE also gives you a glimpse of what the Turbo could have been in the states had it gained popularity.
I have a Genesis and my brother had a SNES when we were younger but they just don't have the same place in my heart as the old Duo does.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 21, 2011, 09:21:29 AM
Thanks for sharing guys.....my favorite system happens to be Snes, but i am getting into this one slowly. :-k
I really like the system myself, and i am disappointed that i sold it.
I have been watching the "Turbo views" channel on youtube, neat stuff this system has.
As of now, I am stuck with roms and isos.
My favorite games so far-
Lords of Thunder Dracula X Legendary axe 2 New adventure island.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 21, 2011, 11:28:27 AM
SNES, minus a few games, is the worst of the 3 by far. If there was no SMW, I wouldn't feel bad ridding myself of the system.
seclet of mana
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 21, 2011, 01:31:32 PM
The SNES is special to me because of: -Super Mario World (best Mario game ever. Period.) -F-Zero -Pilotwings -ActRaiser -Super Adventure Island (best Adventure Island ever. The rest are just Wonder Boy sprite hacks so screw 'em). -Super Castlevania IV -Super Metroid -Jaki Crush (the only good pinball game that isn't on the PCE)
...and probably a few more I can't think of right now. But most of the library is mediocre, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
it's funny how many games on the sfc aged badly while many on the pce aged very well.
today I don't like the blurry squishy look of many of the sfc games. also many of the musics sound very odd today. pce has very crispy as well colorful graphics and yeah, we do not have to talk about the musics any further i guess :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 21, 2011, 02:08:56 PM
Well, you guys are forgetting these SNES classics- [-X
Super Turrican 1&2 Contra 3 Yoshi's island Donkey kong Country series Super Aleste (Space megaforce) Lufia 1&2 Megaman X-X3 (although not saying much at this point)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 02:48:01 PM
Why should I forget those, I have 'em and many many more :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheClash603 on March 21, 2011, 03:19:40 PM
Super Punch-Out and Pilotwings are #2 and #3 after SMW. I kinda liked Super Mario RPG too. Harvest Moon maybe too.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 21, 2011, 03:25:24 PM
For me, the main attraction of the PCE is development. As a game developer, I like a system that is both easy to develop for as well as powerful. The PCE is both of these and more. The other two consoles of the era have some serious limitations that I cannot overlook... the Genesis sorely lacks colors and the SNES sorely lacks CPU power and viable media for game distribution. I could give a snot about the game libraries for any of them, really... but if I have to look at the libraries in totality, the PCE also has the best good:crap ratio out of the three. Sure, one can pick out a specific title and say "but this game blows all games on all the others away so this console's the best", but that's vacuous fanboyism which is the bane of proper game appreciation. I have my favorite games on all three systems, but many of them I like mainly for their technical ability, and I utilize that knowledge in my own development style.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 21, 2011, 03:26:38 PM
The SNES is special to me because of: -Super Mario World (best Mario game ever. Period.) -F-Zero -Pilotwings -ActRaiser -Super Adventure Island (best Adventure Island ever. The rest are just Wonder Boy sprite hacks so screw 'em). -Super Castlevania IV -Super Metroid -Jaki Crush (the only good pinball game that isn't on the PCE)
...and probably a few more I can't think of right now. But most of the library is mediocre, in my opinion.
My "SNES best" list is surprisingly similar, although I'd swap Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts for Super Adventure Island.
I'd also add Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Chrono Trigger and maybe Super R-Type 2 (I know, I know, I'm strange).
Quote
Well, you guys are forgetting these SNES classics-
Super Turrican 1&2 Contra 3 Yoshi's island Donkey kong Country series Super Aleste (Space megaforce) Lufia 1&2 Megaman X-X3 (although not saying much at this point)
Donkey Kong Country series, maybe if you're feeling nostalgic. Turrican, no f*cking way. The first MegaMan X was good, but the rest of the series felt like it was revisiting old ground (except MegaMan X4 on the Playstation, awesome game). SMW2/YI I'll give you (see above), but Super Aleste is a long, drawn-out borefest. Worst Compile shooter that I've ever played.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 21, 2011, 03:42:14 PM
There was a Super R-Type 2? Chrono Trigger was good if perhaps a bit overrated. The story wasn't amazing or anything. Super Ghouls n' Ghosts just feels so crippled compared to regular, run-of-the-mill un-super Ghouls n' Ghosts (too slow, can't shoot up, etc).
Quote
Super Turrican 1&2
I liked the music, but that's about it.
Quote
Contra 3
Definitely good, yes, but it's not one that really sticks with you.
Quote
Yoshi's island
Maybe this is one of those games that you need to play for a while to appreciate, but I really don't like it. The worst sound in the entire world is that of a crying baby and this game has it in spades, decreasing the enjoyment substantially because of that sound effect alone.
Quote
Donkey kong Country series
Ug. The first game was kind of cool, but I really did not like the graphics. The music is even worse (but the underwater theme is awesome).
Quote
Super Aleste (Space megaforce)
I still haven't played this game, but I hear it has Blazing Lazers Disease™ in that is has super-long, boring levels full of nothing.
Quote
Lufia 1&2
I may have rented Lufia 1. I don't really remember anything about it. The one thing that pops into my mind, however, is that it had good title screen music. Does it? If so, +1 rep to my memory.
Quote
Megaman X-X3 (although not saying much at this point)
I really don't like any Mega Man games besides part 2.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 21, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
R-Type 2, Super R-Type, whatever you call it. The sequel to the first R-Type. :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 04:10:13 PM
R-Type 3 aka R-Type the 3rd lighting :)
Big sleeping pile but with some cool moments. especially the final boss fight.
hated that steel factory level the most. uber boring and nerve killing stage with awful graphics.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 21, 2011, 04:26:02 PM
No, not that one. R-Type 2.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 21, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
For a second there I thought there was a sequel to Super R-Type (which has elements of R-Type 2 but is really its own game). I like that game as well, though I think it is too hard. Fantastic music, though.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 04:37:42 PM
For a second there I thought there was a sequel to Super R-Type (which has elements of R-Type 2 but is really its own game). I like that game as well, though I think it is too hard. Fantastic music, though.
So yeah, then there is only Super R-type left, which was kind a remixed/downgraded R-Type 2 (arcade).
sure the real R-Type 2 (Arcade) was multiple times better than what the sfc got.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 21, 2011, 05:16:18 PM
who am I kidding, I play and collect for all of these equally.
Theres just more good PCE games than the other systems, SO I BUY MORE OF IT.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 21, 2011, 06:01:26 PM
For a second there I thought there was a sequel to Super R-Type (which has elements of R-Type 2 but is really its own game). I like that game as well, though I think it is too hard. Fantastic music, though.
So yeah, then there is only Super R-type left, which was kind a remixed/downgraded R-Type 2 (arcade).
Exactly. I feel like they downgraded some of the parts they felt the SNES couldn't handle properly (ie, without mega slowdown). The level they tacked on the beginning is really dumb and superfluous, though. The rest of the game is pretty much R-Type 2 except for one or two levels substituted for reasons I mentioned.
I actually prefer the SNES version to the arcade, though. The music is much better, as Joe mentioned.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 21, 2011, 06:23:52 PM
I much prefer the SCD titles over the Hucard games. For once, the hardware was upgraded to rival the SFC/Genesis. I am Loving the graphics in Rayxanber 3, Lords of thunder and Terraforming. On the other hand, there aren't many special effects in the card games, and many pf em tend to look flat. So, i guess this is another unique thing about this system. What started as a 8-bit machine was upgraded to a 16-bit hardware with the "Super system card". This was really creative for Nec.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 06:52:16 PM
So, i guess this is another unique thing about this system. What started as a 8-bit machine was upgraded to a 16-bit hardware with the "Super system card".
In fact the system never was any hardware uprgaded other than added some more of ram (which I do not call a hardware upgrade). All visual things you can see in sapphire you could also do on the '87 core :)
That is what makes it really unique.
The MCD got all kind of extra hardware crap, but beside some rarely good used mode7ish effects, you won't really notice.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 21, 2011, 07:00:13 PM
Count me in the fascination crowd. Reading EGM back in the early 90s would always get my hyped up for the next great wave of Japanese Imports that I would never play (at that time). I never even KNEW what a PC Engine looked like until the advent of the internet. I would see screenshots and read gameplay info about all these games, and it all just fascinated me like nothing else ever! Sure, like Zeta said most of us collect for all other retro systems. It's just that NEC's consoles have undeniable charm.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 21, 2011, 07:41:16 PM
On the other hand, there aren't many special effects in the card games, and many pf em tend to look flat. So, i guess this is another unique thing about this system. What started as a 8-bit machine was upgraded to a 16-bit hardware with the "Super system card".
There's not much that could be further from the truth....
The CD-ROM drive was just a different storage medium, that's all. It didn't add any CPUs, GPUs, background layers, or "bits" to the console. While it's true there are more primitive looking non-CD games, that's mainly because ALL the games produced until, what, 1989? were cartridge games and all games produced after 1994 were CD games. 1987-89 were the early years of 16-bit graphics; a precedent had yet to be set. Many of the games from this period have "inferior" graphics to those produced from 1991-96, but that has everything to do with the era and nothing to do with the storage medium.
All the Super System Card is, is a RAM expansion for the CD-ROM that allows the system to load more data into memory so it doesn't have to stop and load from the disc as often. In the same vein, the Arcade Card is even MORE RAM that serves the same purpose.
Anything you get on CD-ROM would be possible from a cartridge, provided you could make one with a large enough ROM size. Well, except redbook audio, of course...
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: 1980-20.. on March 21, 2011, 10:46:17 PM
Maybe this will help explain things. :-"
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 21, 2011, 10:55:30 PM
IIRC, Super R-Type was a mix of R-type I and II.
I'm pretty sure the first level is the first level from I.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 21, 2011, 11:05:14 PM
IIRC, Super R-Type was a mix of R-type I and II. I'm pretty sure the first level is the first level from I.
Not at all. R-Type's first level is... a space station, with walking robots, Dobkerad (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-TYPE)ops at the end, etc etc. Super R-Type's first level is... in outer space, with an asteroid field, rings of Saturn (Japanese version...) and a bomb-laying, spinning boss thing at the end.
Anyway, for those who don't know where Super R-Type's levels come from: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/rtype/rtype2.htm
"There are seven levels in total, three of which are brand new, four of which are from R-Type II. There are new bosses for each of these stages, although they don't quite measure up to the quality of the original arcade version." etc.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 22, 2011, 12:20:13 AM
Lol what? I love how they say the PCE isn't a real 16bit system. Even though by that very same logic the Genesis also isn't truly 16bit. As both systems are technically half 8bit and half 16bit. And both systems run circles around the SNES speed wise.
But what I've never understood is why anyone cares about the bits. So many people are quick to point out the PCE's 8bit cpu. But who cares? How is having an 8bit cpu a negative? PCE has tons of great games so we play them. I've never understood the world's insistence on trashing the Turbo. There are tons of great games, and for what it's worth the PCE destroyed the MegaDrive in Japan.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 22, 2011, 12:47:33 AM
Ah well. It's been a while. Over 10 years actually, but now I have a SNES again!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: grahf on March 22, 2011, 01:53:29 AM
Maybe this isn't the thread for it, but I have to tell "My Turbo story" before explaining why I like the PCE:
I had a Turbo back in the early 90s, and I thought it was a piece of shit. At that point the Genesis was already popular, and the SNES had just been released with Super Mario World, Zelda - A Link to the Past, etc. I was also really into RPGs at the time, since as a po' boy, they offered the best bang for the buck. Anyways, me and my brother picked up a used Turbo with Keith Courage. I also got Dragon Spirit a few days later. I was 100% underwhelmed. It seemed like nothing more than an NES with slightly more colors, and the games I saw all looked really simplistic and lacked depth. Those are not the worst games on the system, but they didn't help my first impression of the machine. My mother actually bought me Ys Book 1&2 for it, except that I couldn't play it because it required the CD add-on (which I didn't know existed until then). I found out the cost of the CD add-on, and promptly gave up on it and traded it in. It was just too expensive an upgrade.
About 6 years ago, I discovered Dracula X while looking up Castlevania 3 info on the internet. I was extremely surprised to find out that the PC Engine, the brother of the ill-fated Turbo, was actually a popular machine in Japan. After trying Dracula X out on Magic Engine, I was completely blown away that such a thing was possible on the lowly machine I had traded in all those years ago. I sampled a bunch of other CD games, and knew I had to own one.
I like the fact that the games are uncensored (Snatcher, Shin Megami Tensei, etc) and there is a lot of weird and unique stuff on the PCE that you can't find on other systems. The Megadrive and SNES were mainly targeted at kids, as was the PC Engine, but you can definitely tell that NEC wanted to appeal to a wider audience. Which includes crappy karaoke disks, unfortunately :D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 22, 2011, 03:11:59 AM
I got my TG16 shortly before I got a Genesis (but I was playing a Genesis at a friends house). Those two systems were my favorites. Though, I always had more of a soft spot for the TG16 since I got that first. Coming from a NES, the graphic and games were incredible. Even the 'lowly' Keith Courage was impressive looking at the time. And Blazing Lazers and Rtype, the TG16 was incredible.
I was hyped at first when the SNES came out, but that wore off quickly. I never really got excited about games for it. Sure, I had fun playing some of the great titles on the system - but other than a few, I never had the same level of anticipation that I had waiting for TG16 (and Genesis) games. Zelda was great. SCVI was great. SGnG was great. FF2US was awesome. FF3US was great. SMW was fun. But... other than those, I wasn't particularly interested in the system. I played and beat other games, of course. Secret of Mana was a nice surprise. My brother bought the game and I got a change to beat it. It was fun, but I never raved over it like other Square fanboi's did. And I'm probably the only person on the planet that doesn't think Chrono Trigger is all that great. Waaaaay over hyped. It was fun, but it wasn't fantastic. I really disliked how the story jumped around. And yes, I played it back in the day. I also didn't care for Super Mario RPG.
I loved seeing the TG16's potential being shown in titles like GOT, LOT, or Spriggan, Rayxanber 3, Emerald Dragon. I loved the style of games that came out on the Genesis. Both were so different than the SNES. SNES had the pretty graphics, but the games just weren't overly exciting to me. I dunno. Something was just missing.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 22, 2011, 06:37:58 AM
I never got into Chrono Trigger either... it was just dull and uninspired. My SNES "collection of faves" is pretty small... SMW, Phalanx, Super Turrican, LttP, Illusion Of Gaia, FF3US, Hyperzone, Actraiser 1 & 2, F-Zero. I like Plok but only for the music... the gameplay stinks... same with SNES DOOM. My collection of Genesis faves is a little smaller... Sonic 1, 2 & CD, Streets Of Rage, Jewel Master, Batman, Phantasy Star IV, Lunar, Castle Of Illusion, and Vay. And despite its hideous technical flaws, I somehow still like Chakan. My list of PCE/TG16 faves is extremely long and dwarfs both others of the era... Neutopia 1 & 2, Bonk 1 thru 3, Air Zonk, Blazing Lazers, GoT, LoT, Legendary Axe II, Dead Moon, Parasol Stars, Cadash, Turrican, Cosmic Fantasy 2, Silent Debuggers, Exile 1 & 2, Splatterhouse, Sinistron, Sidearms, Fantasy Zone, etc etc etc etc... the list goes on and on. Even though many of them are not exclusives, I feel that the PCE has the best particular versions of said non-exclusives.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 22, 2011, 08:17:55 AM
I suppose some of you have limited your discussion to 16-bit only, but here is the hierarchy of love in my heart:
1) NES / Famicom 2) TG-16 / PCE 3) SNES / Genesis (tie. they both have great stuff, I could never put one above the other)
I played all the pre-bit (Atari VCS, etc.), 8-bit and 16-bit consoles back in the day (eventually, my brothers and I owned them all, too).
Then I became less interested in video games and more interested in COLLEGE. I still played, but not nearly as much. And I only purchased a few games a year.
Then, my younger brother got me back into video games at the tail-end of the 90's, and I am glad he did.
First NES I used to spend a lot of time discussing NES/Famicom. It was easy to discuss NES/Famicom, because a lot of people were familiar with the libraries, and it seemed that there was a healthy group of "gurus" that I could learn from (they were familiar with obscure trivia, for example). Unfortunately, the folks I enjoyed conversing with eventually scattered into the ether.
PCE The few TG-16 games I never played in the early 90's re-kindled my interest in TG-16. Then, at some point, I realized that I was pretty clueless about the breadth of the PCE library. I was well-versed in the POPULAR Japanese titles (Dracula X) and all the shoot-em-ups, but I didn't fully understand how much PURE AWESOME was waiting for me in PCE-Land. This was wonderful, because it breathed new life into the TG-16 universe.
Underdog The reason why the TG-16 has a special place in my heart is because it was the underdog, and I am glad I took a chance on it (Sega Genesis, and later SNES would have been much more frugal choices). I was intrigued with the bizarre CD-ROM peripheral and the early CD-ROM games.
I could always play Nintendo and Sega consoles with friends/family (everyone had either one or the other). Nobody had TG-16, and I was just too damn curious about it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 22, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
I never got into Chrono Trigger either... it was just dull and uninspired.
Man...That's a scary thought. Maybe you didn't spend too much time with it? The story picks up in the future part of the game. Moreover, do try Dynamite headdy,fire shark,elemental master,vectorman for the genesis. They are some of my favorites for the system. As for Snes, give Skyblazer, Demon's crest a look.
Also, I am wondering, which system gives you the best picture quality? Duo? Duo R? Are they S-video compatible?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 22, 2011, 08:33:46 AM
The reason why the TG-16 has a special place in my heart is because it was the underdog, and I am glad I took a chance on it (Sega Genesis, and later SNES would have been much more frugal choices). I was intrigued with the bizarre CD-ROM peripheral and the early CD-ROM games.
Yeah...one of the reasons why i find this system appealing.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 22, 2011, 11:25:27 AM
All this discussion makes me wonder if things would have been much different at all if the PCE had featured even double the anemic amount of main RAM it's equipped with.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 22, 2011, 12:06:03 PM
I liked all the systems....
Some of the RPGs on SNES had a strange vibe that I really liked. 7th Saga, Brainlord, Lufia, and Secret of Mana were very atmospheric games. also, Illusion of Gaia was amazing.
It was a great RPG system, especially considering the PCE didn't get a ton of english RPGs compared to the Japanese library..., which sucks. If we'd have gotten the ENTIRE Cosmic Fantasy series, that would have been good....
Emerald Dragon wasn't translated, La Valeur, Anearth... we got kinda frikkin jipped really.
So at the time, if I wanted to play RPGs, I turned to the Genesis and SNES........... which is ironic, since the PCE's library does really destroy the two of them as far as RPGs go.
growing up, I only played US Turbo Grafx HuCards..........so RPGs weren't really happening. Order of the Griffon was ok. But when you have the entire Goldbox collection, all the Ultimas, and Wizardries and M&Ms for PC, it aint so hot.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheClash603 on March 22, 2011, 12:32:35 PM
My list of PCE/TG16 faves...Turrican, Silent Debuggers, etc etc etc etc... the list goes on and on.
Really? The rest of your list was so good!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 22, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
Turrican sucks a fat dick.
/thread.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: awack on March 22, 2011, 12:38:57 PM
If they stuck with hucards longer than they did, then yes, 8KB is just to low for uncompressing allot of graphics.
I just spent a good part of last week playing the most impressive games on each system(with the exception of rendering ranger for the snes), actual console, composite video.
Best graphics: Beyond Shadowgate, unparalleled detail, lots of color in the BGs, tons of animation, very high resolution, standard horizontal res for pce and snes games is 256, standard/high res for genesis is 320...Shadowgates horizontal res is 352 which means every thing looks great on an actual TV.
Other great looking games: Seiken Densetsu 3 for the snes and Flink for the genesis.
Best animation: Saphire...believe it or not, Rondo has more frames (actual unique frames) than Sapphire but the type of animation and size of the spites and tiles(for some bosses) that animate, are what make the difference.
Other games with good animation: Donkey Kong Country, Earth Worm Jim, Rondo, Toy Story, Fatal fury special(ACD)
best special fx: Rondo, frames, and art, make them the best in my oppinion, they are still being used to this very day...this isn't mode 7, this is beautifully hand drawn animation.
best fmv: Silpheed.
best 3D: either Starfox or Virtual racing.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 22, 2011, 01:40:07 PM
I was always floored by the stuff in Flashback and Out Of this world.
The goony 3D stuff. It really made me erect at the young age of ~10.
Flashback style games are fun. I always wanted to make one but to me making the physics is a pain in the ass. Its very strange movement to me. Like prince of Persia.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 22, 2011, 01:44:18 PM
yeah, 3D on 16Bit (in 16bit times) > 3D on 32bit (in 32bit times). at least for most of the games.
I have played uncoutable hours of Starglider II. it was the ultimate 3D expierence.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Otaking on March 22, 2011, 02:57:04 PM
Started reading this thread then had stop a few posts in as can not abide anyone who doesn't accept the epic greatness of the SFC/SNES #-o I raise arm, lift hand, rotate hand 180°, hold palm to sfc haters face, turn head, then walk away....
:D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 22, 2011, 03:05:54 PM
was that a serious post?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 22, 2011, 03:19:05 PM
The SNES is cool, too, but it just isn't as interesting for some reason I can't put my finger on.
then had to stop reading...
I really do the love the SFC, I'm a total FanBoy, I think it has a huge selection of incredible games.
I'd personaly rank:
1: SFC
2: PCE , very close between PCE and SFC. SFC pips it only due to Shigeru Miyamoto's games.
3: NEO GEO .... Last Resort for the win!
4: Megadrive
everyone has different tastes and points of view I guess, A similar example if I was reading a thread and I read someone saying they don't really like PCE Dracula X or Winds/Gate of Thunder... just makes me think R-TARDed, epic fail. :D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 22, 2011, 03:47:53 PM
I like the SNES a lot, I think it has a great library.
The Genesis on the other hand is a bit of a different story, the Genesis had a fairly diverse library of games being released between 1989 and 1992, after that the Genesis library became overrun with 1. Ports of games that were better on SNES 2. Sports games 3. Sega first party games which varied wildly in quality.
Simply put, for the Genesis there's not enough unique software on the system for it to have any major advantage over the TG16 in my book.
Added in edit: The PC Engine itself has another huge draw which is it has a lot of games that quite frankly I've not played. I was a huge gamer in the 16-bit era, I subscribed to lots of game mags. Most Super Famicom and Genesis games worth owning made their way to the US. The PC Engine and TG16 have vastly differing libraries which leaves more to be discovered.
Also the library suits my "likes" as far as gaming goes. My three favorite Genres are J-RPGs, Platformers and Shmups. Two of the three are well represented on the PCE .
I have to completely agree with this. I was pretty heavy into gaming during the 16-bit era, and owned a Genesis, Sega CD and SNES back in the day. I had played a Turbografx-16 and knew of the PC Engine, but almost nobody I knew had one. The only games I had a chance to play was Keith Courage and Bonk's Adventure. That was it. None of the movie/game rental shops carried TG-16 games, just NES, SMS, Genesis, Sega CD, SNES, etc.
In the mid-late 90s, I discovered emulators and roms. I got into NES, Gameboy and Genesis roms quickly... mostly playing Phantasy Star IV and Shining Force II, which, ironically, were games I owned anyway. The novelty of playing them on my computer and not taking up the family TV was awesome. Of course, by this time, rental shops had moved on to the 3DO, Saturn, PS1 and N64. Although I had a Saturn and PS1, I LOVED having a way to try out all of the games I'd missed earlier, or wanted to play more but didn't have access to.
Thanks to Harry Tuttle's website, "The Dump", it wasn't long before I was diving into the TG-16/PC Engine library (why was the TG-16 the ONLY system where you had to pay for the emulator???). All of those games that I'd read about in Gamepro and EGM were at my disposal, and then some! Well, the HuCard games anyway. I finally got to spend some quality time with the Bonk games. I saw how awesome Devil's Crush was. I had fun on Blazing Lasers. I discovered that the NES didn't have the best version of Life Force, but wondered why it was called Salamander in Japan. I discovered how different JJ&Jeff was from Kato&Ken. I realized how sad the SMS version of R-Type was when compared to the awesome TG-16 version. WOW, it was a whole new world of 16-bit games that I'd missed right there for me to play!
Later on, I moved to Japan. I had a modded X-Box with all the emulators on it, as well as a PS3 when it came out. I was spending a lot of time playing MAME games on the X-Box mostly. I mostly hung out in the PS2/3 section of game shops. Then, a boxed Sega Saturn caught my eye for just 3000yen ($30). I bought it, along with about 30 games at a few yen each. The bill came to about 5000yen. Not bad, I thought. Just two years later... I had every retro system and most every retro game I'd ever wanted. Which 16-bit system came out as my favourite out of the bunch?
That is not right! In fact, there are lots of good Turrican games out there.
I would recommend Mega Turrican/Turrican 3 for you.
I spent a period of time wondering why the hell people loved turrican so much, so I literally played every version of it ever, on every platform.
I still think the games retarded.
The C64 one has awesome music though, so thats the best one if you ask me
Turrican 2's bass lines are mad phat
I think the two first Turricans on the Amiga had de best music blasts!! c64 had a very great pre-intro & intro tune but only had ingame music in those flying stages, which was kind a bummer. It sounded great. ramiro did a great job.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 22, 2011, 04:09:04 PM
All this discussion makes me wonder if things would have been much different at all if the PCE had featured even double the anemic amount of main RAM it's equipped with.
Double? It was originally designed for 4 times the amount it has now. It has mapped space for a 32k sram chip. But since there are no upper address lines, it just wraps and mirrors the single 8k sram 4 times. Why? Because they're a$$holes ;) The SGX has the single 32k ram chip there. And there's no way to 'turn it off'. Even if you set the compatibility switch to PCE mode on the SGX, the full amount of RAM is there. Thus, you can always detect if you're running on an SGX or not, regardless of the compatibility switch.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheOldMan on March 22, 2011, 04:24:30 PM
Quote
Thanks to Harry Tuttle's website, "The Dump",
Oh my God! Someone else remembers "The Dump". I must have scanned half my collection for Harry. Wish he could see me now, churning out games for his beloved turbo....
Wait. You actually paid for magic engine? I lived with the demo for a looooong time. Was the only way I could play my turbo games, as the young 'uns kept the Tube tied up with their new-fangled Geney-sis and N64, then later their playstations and xboxes. Good Times....
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheOldMan on March 22, 2011, 04:46:08 PM
Quote
It has mapped space for a 32k sram chip. But since there are no upper address lines, it just wraps and mirrors the single 8k sram 4 times. Why?
Because 32K Chips were VERY expensive..... I know I paid $100+ for a 32K upgrade (2 x (4k x 4bit chips) - that's 16Kbits per chip, by 2 chips) for another computer around that time. And that was split across 2 smaller chips. No one was using 32K chips because of the price. And 32Kx8 bits was unheard of back then - After all :"Who needs more than 640K?"
How much time passed before the SGX came out? Even in 6 months, there was a lot of changes (see moore's law) back then. And as chip sizes went up, prices went down. They still do.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 22, 2011, 05:27:00 PM
I spent a period of time wondering why the hell people loved turrican so much, so I literally played every version of it ever, on every platform.
I still think the games retarded.
I don't know about retarded, but I do agree that something feels off about the Turrican games. They could have been fun with some gameplay tweaks, but they just weren't there for me.
That said, I'll have to disagree with you on Illusion of Gaia. I found it to be pretty thin. Here's my opinion on the game circa 7 years ago: http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588383-illusion-of-gaia/reviews/review-71991
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 22, 2011, 06:27:12 PM
It has mapped space for a 32k sram chip. But since there are no upper address lines, it just wraps and mirrors the single 8k sram 4 times. Why?
Because 32K Chips were VERY expensive..... I know I paid $100+ for a 32K upgrade (2 x (4k x 4bit chips) - that's 16Kbits per chip, by 2 chips) for another computer around that time. And that was split across 2 smaller chips. No one was using 32K chips because of the price. And 32Kx8 bits was unheard of back then - After all :"Who needs more than 640K?"
How much time passed before the SGX came out? Even in 6 months, there was a lot of changes (see moore's law) back then. And as chip sizes went up, prices went down. They still do.
Consumer market prices for ram upgrades weren't the same as a large company like NEC setting up a deal to purchase a large supply of ram chips.
Almost a year to date, the Megadrive debuted with 64k of system ram (two 32Kx8bit). Besides, the VDCs in the PCE itself used a pair of 32Kx8bit sram (no vram) chips for its 32Kword memory. Hell, /RDY is there on the 6280 (except the cart port). They could have easily used cheaper DRAM + a controller. The early CDROM addon modules supposedly uses DRAM for the onboard 64k of CD RAM (dunno about ADPCM ram - two 64Kx4bit IIRC). The SCD upgrade cards probably uses 32Kx8bit sram too (along with one 128Kx8bit). I know the Arcade card Pro does as I recently took it apart (1x HM628128ALT7 and 2x 84256A-70LL). Though I've been told the later Duo models uses a single 256k sram chip (makes sense). Anyway, they were already using 32Kx8bit chips for the VDC, so they had a supplier and a better setup to buy in larger bulk to keep costs down. Cutting system ram ended up biting them in the ass IMO. More ram means less decompression on the fly and more free cpu resource (cached tiles/sprites), and more advanced compression schemes to make up for the smaller hucard sizes. Populous was the only hucard game to get a ram upgrade (32k too). IMO, their first mistake was cutting the ram size down to 8k, 2nd) only giving 64k of ram for the CD addon, 3rd) only giving an additional 192k of ram for the SCD upgrade card. They seriously over compensated with the arcade card, but it was too late by then. Core system should have been 32k, CD addon 128k, SCD addon 256k additional minimum (384k optimal for a total of 512k). I mean, you have RPGs on this new SCD upgrade with black back grounds and no enemy animation. And some SCD RPGs even loaded enemies from the CD on every encounter. The PCE just spent most its life under ram'd.
I personally think they underplayed the hucard games while they readied the CD unit. That's probably why it got cut in the ram department. If for some reason they needed more ram later on, you can always provided it via the hucard pcb. Except, the screwed up on the CD base ram. If the original system had the 32k of system ram, the 64k wouldn't have been as bad. Though 128k is still would it should have started off with regardless. The original PCE VDCs are setup for 128k of sram too. But only 64k was installed. If they went that route, the 8k system ram wouldn't have been much of a problem (you'd have more than enough vram to cache sprite frames and tiles). Funny, the SGX technically has 128k of vram and 32k of system ram. They get that right, and it flops. Figures...
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 22, 2011, 06:31:44 PM
I remember paying around 100 bucks for a 512KB RAM upgrade for my Amiga in like 1989. Or was that a different type of RAM?
video RAM not equal system RAM?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 22, 2011, 07:05:34 PM
Maybe this is one of those games that you need to play for a while to appreciate, but I really don't like it. The worst sound in the entire world is that of a crying baby and this game has it in spades, decreasing the enjoyment substantially because of that sound effect alone.
I love Yoshi's Island. It is, IMO, the greatest game of all time. It has no flaws.
What about the annoying baby crying, you say?
Don't you see? That's just one more reason its perfect. You only hear the kid when you are lose him. Play better, ie: don't lose him, and you won't hear him scream. Does his scream have to be that annoying? f*ck yes! You'd just let Koopa keep him if he wasn't so damned irritating. The way it is you learn to grab his ass and put him back on the saddle in less than a second, once you get good at the game. Sure its not fun to hear him cry, and its not fun to put more quarters into a Metal Slug machine either. That's what drives you to get better at the game.
Its the same mechanism that evolution built into actual human babies so that their parents wouldn't ignore them. Its f*cking genius.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 22, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
I remember paying around 100 bucks for a 512KB RAM upgrade for my Amiga in like 1989. Or was that a different type of RAM?
video RAM not equal system RAM?
When I doubled the RAM in my Mac SE to a then large 1MB it cost...I don't remember. It was fabulously expensive though. Several hundred bucks, at least. The optional 20MB HD was a grand (actually more, since that model was minus a FD).
I'm sure if I were buying the same amount of memory for an AT clone it would have been cheaper that Apple's official stuff (of course, it also would have been useless).
My point is that the price of raw memory is only a single factor. You also have to consider who sold it, how it was packaged, how many people bought it in that packaged form, etc.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Gogan on March 23, 2011, 01:10:08 AM
Everyone has great stories here, I personally liked TG/PCE, aside from the great library, was the sheer underdog status. You never saw a bigger selection at game stores than geny/snes etc. You never saw more reviews/ads in game mags. You never saw more ppl with a TG, if any!
I did enjoy the others, but they utterly failed when compared to TG. my bro had a Genny bitd, and he'd b playing Growl. I'd laugh at him and go back in my room to play Bloody Wolf.
TG/PCE is just the bees f*ckin' knees
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 23, 2011, 03:23:56 AM
The term vram is used loosely. Most will say that it originally meant dual ported ram (you can it has two buses) - thus video circuit and cpu can both access it at the same time. In reality, most video systems in the 80s and 90s didn't use dual port ram. They used normal sram or dram (some used double speed ram and just interleaved access of two devices). When ram is specific to the video processor (and usually isolated, but not always), it's referred to vram to keep the description in context. SRAM is more expensive than DRAM, but it is faster (and was by a lot back then) and very simple to setup. DRAM is slower, though might be fast enough for what you need, but requires special controller logic and has refresh periods (no access time). It introduces timing issues that might cause problems with some designs or just make it rather complex in design.
I remember reading the original Atari ST lines of computers uses 150ns DRAM. And that 68k was 8mhz vs the Amiga's 7.01mhz (PAL). I wouldn't doubt it was about that speed for the Amiga as well.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 23, 2011, 06:05:08 AM
Could EGM be the cause of TG16's demise?
I mean their ratings for some of the better TG16 games were just unfair.
For example, Super star soldier got 6.5/10, Soldier blade got 6/10, Terraforming got 4/10, Super Air zonk got 5.5/10, Buster bros got 5.5/10.
This mag was very harsh towards the Turbo.
I will scan the ratings and post em here sometime.
But, I did appropriate Gamepro's ratings, they were great at reviewing turbo games. However I did not like their review of Ys 3, which scored a 3.0 for the fun factor.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 23, 2011, 06:12:17 AM
The one copy of EGM I had didn't have scores at all, but it was a crappy publication.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 23, 2011, 06:20:30 AM
I loved EGM bitd! But, I will say that if they gave the Turbo as much coverage as they did the PC Engine things may have changed a little.
I still blame the Turbo's demise on NEC Japan and their marketing strategy.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 11:44:49 AM
I mean their ratings for some of the better TG16 games were just unfair.
For example, Super star soldier got 6.5/10, Soldier blade got 6/10, Terraforming got 4/10, Super Air zonk got 5.5/10, Buster bros got 5.5/10.
This mag was very harsh towards the Turbo.
In this context, I disagree completely.
Super Star Soldier - 6.5? This is a bit generous, in my opinion.
Soldier Blade - 6.0? I'll give you this one, Soldier Blade should be an 8 or 9.
Terraforming - 4.0? Probably a perfect score. If Terraforming had the gameplay to match the visuals, it'd be a 10. As it stands, it looks good, but no one's home.
Super Air Zonk - 5.5? Probably another perfect score.
Buster Bros. is the only game here I can't comment on, as I haven't played it beyond the five seconds I used to test out my copy when I bought it.
Based on these games alone, I'd say EGM was very fair in their ratings... Look, there are tons of great games in the US TurboGrafx-16 library. There are multitudes more, however, in the Japanese library that never even got a chance domestically. The TurboGrafx failed because NEC failed in one key area: understanding the American market.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Otaking on March 23, 2011, 11:52:50 AM
I believe it deserves a 8.5/10. It's a addicting shooter, But too easy to finish.
Just seen the edited post, "too easy to finish", not sure about this? Some of the criticism of the game has been its hard difficulty in later levels. I'm not saying I agree that it's overly difficult, in fact I think the difficulty curve is perfect.
That's my only big criticism for Final Soldier it's just far too easy.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 23, 2011, 12:17:38 PM
Well, I am not sure about other people's experience.
But i was able to beat SSS on my 2nd go without losing more than 1 life.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 12:18:53 PM
In my opinion, SSS is boring, uninspired, ugly, derivative and.... boring. It's not the worst shooter on the system (or even close), but it's totally eclipsed by Blazing Lazers and the rest of the Soldier series.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Otaking on March 23, 2011, 12:32:53 PM
But i was able to beat SSS on my 2nd go without losing more than 1 life.
it's definitely the hardest to beat out of the four PCE Soldier games, and it's harder than GunHed. did you beat those other games too in around the same time?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 23, 2011, 12:37:26 PM
save state + reset after timer expires!
WOO!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 23, 2011, 01:01:29 PM
In my opinion, SSS is boring, uninspired, ugly, derivative and.... boring. It's not the worst shooter on the system (or even close), but it's totally eclipsed by Blazing Lazers and the rest of the Soldier series.
Heh, I feel the complete opposite. BL was awesome, no doubt. But it wasn't perfect. I like BL's graphics (it has that original TG16 release look), but SSS definitely had more correct /updated graphics for the time. More use of shades, more moving parts on the bosses, etc. The music was nice too, though overall BL has the better sound track. But I never thought SSS's sound track sucked. I rather liked it. I just wish it had a little more bass (ok, a lot!) to it and it's samples/explosions. I also liked all the different range/looks/styles of the levels and new weapons of SSS. For me, SSS was harder than BL. Well, it took me longer to beat it then BL. Soldier Blade being the hardest of the three. I'll never understand the low opinion some people have of SSS. If you liked BL better, SSS was still a great game when it was released.
I would have loved a SCD release of SSS with a red book audio sound track. That would have been awesome.
Also, EGM was waaaay pro Sega (16bit). Often belittled the TG16 IMO. But I still read every issue. I usually ignored the reviews and just looked over the game spreads (or whatever you call them). I clearly remember the issue that showed off Cosmic Fantasy 2 cinema shots. I couldn't believe it! No 'jaggies/edgies' like Last Alert or Valis II. Very highly anticipated TGCD game for me BITD. I think Ys III got some low scores ranging of 5-6 range. But that game was fantastic fun from start to finish. f*ck EGM reviewers.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 23, 2011, 01:22:50 PM
For me very clear:
SB > SSS >>> FS
And Gunhed is no part of the soldier serie, nor is it intended to be one.
But we had this discussion in so many other threads already. there is even a deticated thread with a poll for the soldier serie.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 23, 2011, 02:15:04 PM
Ok, whatever crack someone must have slipped into my food at some point today... has apparently worn off. (Thank god)
I retract my statement of SSS. Having just replayed through the entire game after making that post - SSS is 6.5 or 7 easily. BL is a 9 or 9.5.
SSS has some great parts, but they are very little. I guess my memory got the best of me on that one, because that's all I seemed to have allowed myself to remember of the game. There are lots of boring parts in between. I like most of the bosses and mini boss of SSS. I like some of the art work, of what little there is really (cause it's damn repetitive). It would have been a lot better if they just made all the stages half as long (at minimum, maybe some even shorter). Gotta go with Nat on this one. :oops:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 23, 2011, 02:25:07 PM
The best part of SSS is the one song in it, for stage 3.
the rest of the game is mediocre at best.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: grahf on March 23, 2011, 02:52:38 PM
I just picked up SSS and FS yesterday because my other copies are in the US. I like the whole series, but never appreciated Gunhed as much as most people here do.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
Ok, whatever crack someone must have slipped into my food at some point today... has apparently worn off. (Thank god)
I retract my statement of SSS. Having just replayed through the entire game after making that post - SSS is 6.5 or 7 easily. BL is a 9 or 9.5.
SSS has some great parts, but they are very little. I guess my memory got the best of me on that one, because that's all I seemed to have allowed myself to remember of the game. There are lots of boring parts in between. I like most of the bosses and mini boss of SSS. I like some of the art work, of what little there is really (cause it's damn repetitive). It would have been a lot better if they just made all the stages half as long (at minimum, maybe some even shorter). Gotta go with Nat on this one. :oops:
The game has not aged well. Back in the day, I thought it was pretty cool. Nowadays, the other games in the series just blow it out of the water. You mentioned length, and indeed that is a major problem. The game just drones on and on, there are points where it seems like it'll never end. Most of the decent parts are towards the end of the game. The only standout part for me early in the adventure is the Scorpion boss who's kind of a chump, but at least he's cool in concept.
Some could argue Blazing Lazers suffers from the same affliction, but the killer soundtrack coupled with Compile's knack for keeping things interesting even during long stretches allows it to stay enjoyable. Not to mention the levels are a lot more interesting to begin with. Somehow they completely failed in this regard with Space Megaforce.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 23, 2011, 03:57:32 PM
btw, for those who might be interested, here's the old SSS thread:
But i was able to beat SSS on my 2nd go without losing more than 1 life.
it's definitely the hardest to beat out of the four PCE Soldier games, and it's harder than GunHed. did you beat those other games too in around the same time?
I have beaten Soldier Blade, but not final soldier and gunhead.
Soldier blade was slightly harder than SSS In my opinion.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 23, 2011, 06:23:45 PM
gunhed ;)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Otaking on March 23, 2011, 11:42:00 PM
Was never really much of a Shinobi fan in general.
I dislike The Legendary Axe but I hate Shape Shifter. I could probably get past LA's technical issues and try to enjoy it, but Shape Shifter is fundamentally broken and is impossible for me to enjoy no matter how much technical savvy the rest of the game has. If the gameplay is f*cked, the game is f*cked, and its gameplay is f*cked beyond repair. I think the only way you can compare LA to SS is that they're both platform slashers... nothing else really compares the two outside of the specific subgenre. As for Turrican... well, Arkhan hates it because it's not a brainless run-and-gun like Contra. :D Also, it wipes the walls with him. :D I like Turrican because it's a thinking man's gunner and relies heavily on accuracy of firing and memorization, not blind bullet-festing that any scrub can do.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 24, 2011, 02:29:31 PM
As for Turrican... well, Arkhan hates it because it's not a brainless run-and-gun like Contra. :D Also, it wipes the walls with him. :D I like Turrican because it's a thinking man's gunner and relies heavily on accuracy of firing and memorization, not blind bullet-festing that any scrub can do.
I completed both on the C64, and the Amiga ones, and the SNES one. The game just sucks. It's got nothing to do with the thinking aspect. The thinking aspect is boring. Theres not much strategy to "shoot randomly into the air to see if you get a platform to appear with STUFFS IN IT!". Then: ROLL AROUND AND BREAK THE LITTLE TARDPODS. OH HERE COMES SOME BATS. BETTER SHOOT THEM AND THEN CONTINUE ON YOUR MERRY WAY. ENJOY THE MUSIC AS YOU MEANDER THROUGH BOREDOM.
DONT BOTHER TRYING TO AIM UP. ROBOTMEN CANT AIM UP. NEVERMIND THAT YOU CAN AIM 8 WAYS IN CONTRA. THATS STUPID. WERE EUROPEAN SO WE f*ck EVERYTHING UP. DID YOU TRY MENACE? ITS LIKE RTYPE ONLY WE f*ckED IT UP CAUSE WERE EUROPE.
Robotmans shouldnt have to use strategy. They should just f*ck everything up. If I want strategy, I will play a real strategy game. The game has all of the elements of a sweet action game, with none of the action.
It'd help if the enemies werent retarded little doodlepods and stupid crap. You're basically fighting pop cans, foreman grills, and things that resemble little kid toys. There are more sinister looking monsters in super mario world ffs.
Heres some irony for you. Turrican blows. So does RType on the C64 (no sfx, wtf!). The same man is responsible for both.
GO FIGURE.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on March 24, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
Why do I feel like stabbing some nintendogs? Seriously though that was a stupidly biased video which while semi informative also was incredibly slanted.
First of all who in the quad core age still thinks "bits" mean anything. Second look at the f*cking game. PCE games either wow in visual or audio 90% of the time Plus cover art? no contest.
My first console was an odessey 1 TV tennis, My second a 2600. I've been around. I love a lot of Nintendo and Segas's legacy. and several of each's systems, but The PC engine is very special, IMO.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 24, 2011, 06:20:22 PM
Why do I feel like stabbing some nintendogs? Seriously though that was a stupidly biased video which while semi informative also was incredibly slanted.
A "show" named FAMICOM Dojo...slanted/biased??...couldn't see that coming ;) You need to watch more of their stuff if you want to see the (obvious) bias that's pretty regular.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on March 24, 2011, 06:52:49 PM
A "show" named FAMICOM Dojo...slanted/biased??...couldn't see that coming ;) You need to watch more of their stuff if you want to see the (obvious) bias that's pretty regular.
No that's bullshit, they seem to cover Sega "fairly" fairly. Or Maybe I just find the sega stereotype more true :p Anyway yeah I am a bit of a sucker letting it piss me off.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 24, 2011, 07:51:11 PM
Hehehe Ark, you know I'm just messin with ya :D
However, Shape Shifter does still suck. :P
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: lord_cack on March 24, 2011, 11:52:42 PM
Well, I just found this thread. Interesting (this topic comes up once every year and a half or so).
OK, why PCE.... it had exclusivity. That was a big part for me. Ys Book I & II, was nowhere else. Beyond Shadowgate, Cosmic Fantasy 2, Gate of Thunder, Lord of Thunder, Dungeon Explorer II.... these games excisted on no other system and i wouldn't want to imagine my teen years without those titles.
Sure, yeah, SNES had some titles I also wouldn't want to forget: ActRaiser I, Secret of Mana, Shadowrun, Super Metroid, Final Fantasy 3, and Super Mario World. But, everyone had those games or rented them back in the day. No one was playing my Turbo games.
The Genesis, it never struck a chord with me. Sonic was OK but really, you could just press Right and Jump and get through most of those games without even paying attention. I really think it never did anything original worthy of merit. All of its A-List titles were either games you could get on the SNES (and probably done better on the SNES) OR was a game trying to BE a game on the SNES (Zelda Rip-Off, Contra Rip-Off etc.)
The Music everyone has mentioned as well stuck with me from my Turbo games. The Genesis tunes all sounded to me like they came through a rope tied between two coffe cans and the SNES while amazing sonically, all its tunes had a similiar sound to them. Shooters sounded similar, RPG's sounded similar, and on and on. Nothing unique really. That may seem general but I think it holds true.
In my opinion the PCE was the last system that had the unique library going for it. Because cross platform has been the way of things for a long time. You get the exclusive title that draws you in (Now a days its God of War PS3, Halo/ Gears of War Xbox 360 etc.) but other than that, its all cross platform. I don't count the Wii really cause the exclusive titles for those systems are Nintedo's Alist games that have been around for years.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 25, 2011, 04:35:05 AM
As for Turrican... well, Arkhan hates it because it's not a brainless run-and-gun like Contra. :D Also, it wipes the walls with him. :D I like Turrican because it's a thinking man's gunner and relies heavily on accuracy of firing and memorization, not blind bullet-festing that any scrub can do.
I completed both on the C64, and the Amiga ones, and the SNES one. The game just sucks. It's got nothing to do with the thinking aspect. The thinking aspect is boring. Theres not much strategy to "shoot randomly into the air to see if you get a platform to appear with STUFFS IN IT!". Then: ROLL AROUND AND BREAK THE LITTLE TARDPODS. OH HERE COMES SOME BATS. BETTER SHOOT THEM AND THEN CONTINUE ON YOUR MERRY WAY. ENJOY THE MUSIC AS YOU MEANDER THROUGH BOREDOM.
DONT BOTHER TRYING TO AIM UP. ROBOTMEN CANT AIM UP. NEVERMIND THAT YOU CAN AIM 8 WAYS IN CONTRA. THATS STUPID. WERE EUROPEAN SO WE f*ck EVERYTHING UP. DID YOU TRY MENACE? ITS LIKE RTYPE ONLY WE f*ckED IT UP CAUSE WERE EUROPE.
Robotmans shouldnt have to use strategy. They should just f*ck everything up. If I want strategy, I will play a real strategy game. The game has all of the elements of a sweet action game, with none of the action.
It'd help if the enemies werent retarded little doodlepods and stupid crap. You're basically fighting pop cans, foreman grills, and things that resemble little kid toys. There are more sinister looking monsters in super mario world ffs.
Heres some irony for you. Turrican blows. So does RType on the C64 (no sfx, wtf!). The same man is responsible for both.
GO FIGURE.
Turrican is one of my all-time favorite games. I like that it's not trying to be Contra. Plus points are huge levels (like you can go up and down as far as you can across in most levels, but most people will just run straight through), massive sprites, a unique weapon system, awesome graphics and awesome music.
I think it's fair play if you don't like it, I can see why many people wouldn't. But I don't think calling it rubbish because it's not like a superficially similar game is really fair.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 25, 2011, 08:17:36 AM
I completed both on the C64, and the Amiga ones, and the SNES one. The game just sucks.
I am not buying that at all. The fact that you said the game stinks, and yet you managed to stick around and complete several versions of it? If a game sucks, I don't bother playing it. I know something glued you to these games.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 09:20:38 AM
I completed both on the C64, and the Amiga ones, and the SNES one. The game just sucks.
I am not buying that at all. The fact that you said the game stinks, and yet you managed to stick around and complete several versions of it? If a game sucks, I don't bother playing it. I know something glued you to these games.
Indeed, Arkhan doesn't strike me as a masochist who would willingly subject himself to a game he so thoroughly despises.
I, however, have not given up on Turrican TG-16 completely, even though I find it less than captivating.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 09:42:44 AM
Buster Bros. is the only game here I can't comment on, as I haven't played it beyond the five seconds I used to test out my copy when I bought it.
Have Aaron over sometime for beers, brats, and Buster Bros. You won't be disappointed.
Nat, you certainly won't be disappointed by Buster Bros. It is a very nice port with pleasing Red Book and 2-player co-op! I think it holds up remarkably well. :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheOldMan on March 25, 2011, 10:44:27 AM
Quote
Indeed, Arkhan doesn't strike me as a masochist who would willingly subject himself to a game he so thoroughly despises.
You don't know him very well, then. He would do it just so he could bitch about how bad it was....
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Necromancer on March 25, 2011, 10:46:50 AM
You don't know him very well, then. He would do it just so he could bitch about how bad it was....
And to see if it has any contents for googling.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 25, 2011, 11:34:27 AM
The music in the turricans was good... but the gameplay never got very interesting. I'd rather play Blaster Master and Metroid games if I want big expansive levels and whatnot.
The whole game feels like some crap youd find on one of those LOLSHAREWARE cd's for your brand new Pentium computer.
I finished them on C64 first and thought maybe they blew because its a C64 game so I gave the Amiga ones a shot. Its not like they take long to beat. Everyone in C= land raved about the games so I was on a quest to see wtf was so great about it.
The music, thats it.
Listen to the soundtrack, dont play the game.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 25, 2011, 01:52:37 PM
The music in the turricans was good... but the gameplay never got very interesting. I'd rather play Blaster Master and Metroid games if I want big expansive levels and whatnot.
The whole game feels like some crap youd find on one of those LOLSHAREWARE cd's for your brand new Pentium computer.
I finished them on C64 first and thought maybe they blew because its a C64 game so I gave the Amiga ones a shot. Its not like they take long to beat. Everyone in C= land raved about the games so I was on a quest to see wtf was so great about it.
The music, thats it.
Listen to the soundtrack, dont play the game.
Love master blaster. The game and the song.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 25, 2011, 01:57:22 PM
Blaster Master 2 on Sega Genesis is what I play if I want a shooty game that requires exploration, and has huge ass levels.
That game was sooooooooooooo awesome.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 25, 2011, 02:22:17 PM
Blaster Master 2 on Sega Genesis is what I play if I want a shooty game that requires exploration, and has huge ass levels.
That game was sooooooooooooo awesome.
Do you like rendering rangers for Super famicom, tat game is awesome!
Now that one blows away all 16-bit games when it comes to best "16-bit" visuals.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 25, 2011, 03:15:47 PM
Blaster Master on the NES was awesome. BM2 on the Genesis was bullshit wanna be. Maybe it's a fine game by itself (I'll at least give it that), but otherwise I think it sucks much ass. I think it's just some licensed US or EU crap. No original crew/company involved in it. I refuse to play that game... ever.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 25, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
I couldn't get into Blaster Master 2 because the music was horrible and it felt really weird, definitely not like a true sequel. The first one was known for having amazing music. Apparently part 2 was not programmed in Japan, but by inferior people.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 25, 2011, 04:04:09 PM
Blaster Master on the NES was awesome. BM2 on the Genesis was bullshit wanna be. Maybe it's a fine game by itself (I'll at least give it that), but otherwise I think it sucks much ass. I think it's just some licensed US or EU crap. No original crew/company involved in it. I refuse to play that game... ever.
Its a great game, really. From what I gathered, the original crew of Blaster Master didn't make a sequel to Blaster Master after finding out about BM2, because BM2 was great stuff. I remember magazine reviews giving it good marks, and that was how I found out about the game. The music is basically "of the time" western music. Weird thumpy trance stuff. It's still not awful.
saying it sucks because it wasn't done by the Japanese crew is a bit unfair. Especially since its one of the rare instances where the western world didn't f*ck something up that originated in Japan. They could have Green Beret'd the hell out of it (See: MSX Green Beret), or basically any other European take on Konami games for the C64/MSX. It's sad.
The 3rd blaster master on Playstation was awesome too. The atmosphere was amazing. It was a really solid jump from 2d to 3d.
and hey Esteban, I like Ultima IV, and even Ultima II. II is just busted as f*ck and needs fixed.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 25, 2011, 04:07:06 PM
I couldn't get into Blaster Master 2 because the music was horrible and it felt really weird, definitely not like a true sequel. The first one was known for having amazing music. Apparently part 2 was not programmed in Japan, but by inferior people.
Yeah, Sunsoft had a knack for creating gold nuggets with any chip they touched. Sunteam Paul really opened my eyes to their genius with tracks from Batman (MD and NES), Blaster Master (NES), etc.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
You despise Turrican, so it is a THUG who must be shot, immediately. You HEART Ultima IV, so it is a lovely gal (with a purse, no less!). And, well, then there's Ultima II, just as confused and clueless as the elderly gentleman who is looking for his newspaper (but has forgotten it's in his armpit).
:)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 25, 2011, 04:39:05 PM
It took me a while, but I am slowly understanding Estaban's sense of humor. Yay Ha Ha! :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 25, 2011, 04:47:30 PM
Yeah but when I play Hogans Alley I cap everyone and throw the zapper at the TV.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheClash603 on March 25, 2011, 05:00:57 PM
Why is it that light gun games got worse after the NES? The 16-bit systems light gun games sucked, and the TG-16 didn't even get one. Virtua Cop/House of the Dead games excluded, I never touch a light gun game that's not for the NES.
Yet for the NES, I often play Hogan's Alley, Duck Hunt, Gotcha, and Chiller.
Someone needs to do a Lucky and Wild home port to a system of their choosing; with multi-tap, wheel, and guns support.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 25, 2011, 05:08:07 PM
Wildgunman is still the best of the best :)
and the one for the movie :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 25, 2011, 05:44:50 PM
Why is it that light gun games got worse after the NES? The 16-bit systems light gun games sucked, and the TG-16 didn't even get one. Virtua Cop/House of the Dead games excluded, I never touch a light gun game that's not for the NES.
Elemental Gearbolt, Project Horned Owl.
Get .
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 25, 2011, 07:07:13 PM
Do you guys agree that Super bonk 2 is the best bonk game?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 25, 2011, 07:22:41 PM
Do you guys agree that Super bonk 2 is the best bonk game?
No bonk outside the PCE can be the best bonk :idea:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 25, 2011, 07:44:36 PM
Super Bonk 2 is a decent Bonk game, but it's a bit of a departure from the rest. Super Bonk 1 (Bonk 4) is really awful, though. I personally enjoy Bonk 3 (non-CD version) the best.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 25, 2011, 07:59:28 PM
I go with pc genjin 1 & 2 :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 25, 2011, 09:11:46 PM
Tats, loved the spinning gun when you won in Wild Gunman. Surprised the cord didn't get caught up around your hand.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on March 25, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
Why is it that light gun games got worse after the NES? The 16-bit systems light gun games sucked, and the TG-16 didn't even get one. Virtua Cop/House of the Dead games excluded, I never touch a light gun game that's not for the NES.
Elemental Gearbolt, Project Horned Owl.
Get .
I was excited for Project Horned Owl and actually paid full price for the game on release day. It ended up being okay, but I didn't want to replay it like the NES gun games.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 26, 2011, 04:15:15 AM
Super Bonk 1 (Bonk 4) is really awful, though. I personally enjoy Bonk 3 (non-CD version) the best.
I believe that's going bit extreme, cuz i wouldn't really label super bonk was "really awful". I mean, It's certainly very playable, and i stuck around until i finished it. So, I say it's above average. As for Super Genjin 2 or whatever, I like the new graphics style. Hell, I own both games for my super Nintendo. My ratings:-
Bonk's Adventure-8/10 Bonk's Revenge-8.5/10 Bonk 3-7.5/10 Super Bonk-7/10 Super Genjin 2-9/10
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: lord_cack on March 26, 2011, 10:25:33 AM
Super Bonk 1 (Bonk 4) is really awful, though. I personally enjoy Bonk 3 (non-CD version) the best.
I believe that's going bit extreme, cuz i wouldn't really label super bonk was "really awful". I mean, It's certainly very playable, and i stuck around until i finished it. So, I say it's above average. As for Super Genjin 2 or whatever, I like the new graphics style. Hell, I own both games for my super Nintendo. My ratings:-
Bonk's Adventure-8/10 Bonk's Revenge-8.5/10 Bonk 3-7.5/10 Super Bonk-7/10 Super Genjin 2-9/10
Revenge will always be my favorite. The continuity of the levels, the enemies seemed to fit each level, the music fit, the bosses seemed appropriate per level, it just all flowed together very well. It felt as if Bonk was in a "world" not just tossed around from level to level. I mean the one game (can't recall which one) has Bonk in a city.... nah. Bonk 3's level design was horrible. It felt like the left overs from Adventure and Revenge got slapped together and here is what you get.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 26, 2011, 10:34:54 AM
Super Bonk 1 (Bonk 4) is really awful, though. I personally enjoy Bonk 3 (non-CD version) the best.
I believe that's going bit extreme, cuz i wouldn't really label super bonk was "really awful".
I would. Compared to the rest of them, anyway.
Quote
I mean, It's certainly very playable, and i stuck around until i finished it. So, I say it's above average.
Taken as a game outside of the Bonk series, it's "OK." It's far and away the worst of the five Bonk games, however. It seemed like with the 4th one they were trying to "one-up" Bonk 3, but the effort fell flat in every regard. Why is Bonk walking around modern-day cities? Better yet, why is the Chikkun army walking around modern cities? It makes no sense. You can't tell me that the prehistoric setting well had run dry; see the 5th game. Goofiness aside, the graphics are as bland as Bonk has every been. Colors are washed out, dull. Music tries to emulate the Bonk 3 style (probably the same composer), but while many tunes and melodies in 3 are memorable, the audio here is just completely forgettable and bland (yes, there's that word again). Like the other aspects of the game, it again seems like they were attempting to emulate Bonk 3 with the level design in part 4. Certain parts of certain levels almost seem like they were lifted directly from 3, and yet, the levels on the whole are much more boring and unintuitive. I've never bothered finishing the game. Not because it's hard, I just get bored and shut it off before that point.
Super Bonk 2 (the 5th game) is a much, much better effort overall and while I still don't like it as much as 3, it doesn't stand out of place next to the original TG-16 trilogy.
Shameless plug: You can find my in-depth views on the original trilogy, as well as those of my reliable brother runinruder at the following links. His reviews often come first on the page (yellow text), mine are after his (red text):
The Brothers Duomazov: Bonk's Adventure (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Bonk%27s Adventure) The Brothers Duomazov: Bonk 2/Bonk's Revenge (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Bonk%27s Revenge) The Brothers Duomazov: Bonk 3/Bonk's Big Adventure (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Bonk 3%3A Bonk%27s Big Adventure) The Brothers Duomazov: Bonk 3 CD (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Bonk 3 CD)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 26, 2011, 10:46:02 AM
Bonk 1 is the best one as far as vibe goes. Its cartoony, but no so cartoony that its cartoony.
If that made any sense at all.
The 2nd and 3rd games are a bit toooooo cooky. Super Bonk 1 was like fullblown cooky. I like bonk 1's setup the most
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Black Tiger on March 26, 2011, 12:03:42 PM
Super Bonk 1 (Bonk 4) is really awful, though. I personally enjoy Bonk 3 (non-CD version) the best.
I believe that's going bit extreme, cuz i wouldn't really label super bonk was "really awful".
I can't say how good of a game it is overall, but as far as Bonk games go, it's broken, bland and fugly at times.
If only someone would port it to Turbo/PCE with improved color and gameplay... :pray:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 26, 2011, 12:43:52 PM
All Bonk games are pretty bad (I feel the same way about Sonic games), but I enjoy the first one the most. I like playing through stage one and defeating the boss. After that the power goes off. Bonk 2 has better music and seems bigger and more colorful, but it's still Bonk. Bonk 3 is just stupid.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 26, 2011, 01:46:18 PM
If only someone would port it to Turbo/PCE with improved color and gameplay... :pray:
This is something PD wants to do, but I'm not so sure... how do you really fix a fundamentally broken game like that?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 26, 2011, 02:08:04 PM
Or Someone please port Bonk 2 to the Snes with multi scrolls and higher quality music. :roll:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 26, 2011, 02:17:24 PM
I would like to apologize for lying. I was having too much fun playing a dumb S**t on this forum.
I am actually a pretty big fan of the PCE. :roll:
You can see my collection here (Complete in a box)- http://www.pcedaisakusen.net/2/34/441/show-collection.htm
I am using a Duo-r with a 6 button Controller.
As for my collection, All i need is coryoon, world heroes 2, jackie chan and tatsujin, and i am good!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 26, 2011, 06:08:27 PM
OK, on Brothers Duomazov, the red text on the black background is not only ugly but a major pain (literally) to read, causing much eyestrain on me. From a usability perspective it's a rather poor choice.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 26, 2011, 06:59:06 PM
Strange, it's very clear on my LCD monitor. This is the first I've heard of this... Anyone else have this issue?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 26, 2011, 07:11:25 PM
It's the color contrast, among other things. The red doesn't contrast distinctly enough against the black. The thin line font doesn't help that, much. The solution is to use a color that contrasts more against the black. Truth told, dark backgrounds with light text, though popular, are harder to do right than most people think. It's subject a lot more to individual variations in perception than dark text on light backgrounds, and thus tends to be more fiddly. I found the entire site's color scheme a little on the unattractive side, but the yellow text at least is comfortably readable against the black background. The red just ain't doin' it, though.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 26, 2011, 07:27:42 PM
I hear what you're saying, but I think it also has a lot to do with the monitor in question. It contrasts very well on my LCD monitor, in fact it's almost clearer and easier to read for me to read than the yellow. I'd like to hear other people's opinions, as I said, this is the first I've heard of it. If the general consensus is that it's unreadable, I'll consider changing it.
I also wonder if your browser isn't rendering the font correctly; the font isn't supposed to be a thin-line font.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on March 26, 2011, 09:09:38 PM
It looks OK on my CRT.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 26, 2011, 09:17:20 PM
Why is it that light gun games got worse after the NES? The 16-bit systems light gun games sucked, and the TG-16 didn't even get one. Virtua Cop/House of the Dead games excluded, I never touch a light gun game that's not for the NES.
Yet for the NES, I often play Hogan's Alley, Duck Hunt, Gotcha, and Chiller.
I'm curious as to why you would say that. The NES lightgun games are so boring and monotonous and easy they just last forever. I was at a show once where they ran a Duck Hunt tournament and it ran for so long that it ended up being more of a contest to see who could stand up/stay awake the longest rather than a question of accuracy. I think it ran 3 hours.
The best light gun games of all time are the Point Blank series, Oh Bakyuun (which I really f*cking love) and Police Trainer. A lot of people haven't played Oh Bakyuun. I'm lucky that my local arcade has it, but it was released for PS1. Anyone with a pair of GunCons should get this game.
Quote
Someone needs to do a Lucky and Wild home port to a system of their choosing; with multi-tap, wheel, and guns support.
That would be rad.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 26, 2011, 09:26:21 PM
Strange, it's very clear on my LCD monitor. This is the first I've heard of this... Anyone else have this issue?
An issue with red text on a black background? Yes, I do have in issue with this. Its both ghetto and very hard to read. Red on black has been an internet no-no since the dancing baby days. While it used to be the default palette for all Dragon Ball Z and 3DO fansites in 1996, its since become virtually extinct.
That site in general though, is f*cking fantastic.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 26, 2011, 10:29:05 PM
I can read it fine, and I'm 8ft away from the sceen
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 26, 2011, 11:02:00 PM
Red text on a black background is one of the cardinal sins of web design.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 26, 2011, 11:39:56 PM
But taking something that shouldn't work and doing it so well it does work is a good principle of design.
That's not the case here... the site looks awful when it uses red text over black. The yellow on black looks fine though.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Dusk85Z28 on March 27, 2011, 12:24:36 AM
I don't Know if i prefer The turbo over snes or genesis. I love the turbo grafx, However I grew up with Super nintendo and Genesis.
The rpgs for snes were amazing like Zelda, super metroid, chrono trigger ect. Then you had the mario games. I got into turbo grafx because it was cool, obsecure and i did not have one as a kid, nor did i even know what it was. The Turbo grafx has a lot of neat and akward titles that peak some interest, i believe this is why it is a "niche system" to some.
I rate the sega genesis the snes and the Turbo grafx 16 as equal for their differences
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 27, 2011, 03:03:48 AM
Strange, it's very clear on my LCD monitor. This is the first I've heard of this... Anyone else have this issue?
Hey nat :)
I can read the red text (Bonk III HuCard), but, compared to the yellow text (Bonk III CD), the red text is slightly more difficult to read. Everything is relative, as Albert would say, and I can see where spenoza is coming from.
Spenoza, the good thing is that depending on the OS/browser you are using, you can create a customized preference for reading sites that prove to be "challenging" for you. :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Duo_R on March 27, 2011, 03:30:30 AM
Agreed. On my main LCD it isn't bad, but on my tablet it is unreadable the red keeps messing with my eyes. Maybe I am going blind.
Red text on a black background is one of the cardinal sins of web design.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Black Tiger on March 27, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
I just tap zoom once or twice if the particular font I'm reading doesn't feel easy enough to read at the default view. I can read Alexi's articles just fine on my TV, PC monitor and phone without zooming in.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2011, 03:50:23 AM
Black text on a yellow background is scientifically the easiest thing to read.
Thats why school busses and hazard signs are made like this.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 27, 2011, 03:55:19 AM
i love hazard signs.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on March 27, 2011, 04:26:13 AM
Black text on a yellow background is scientifically the easiest thing to read.
Thats why school busses and hazard signs are made like this.
Actually, it's the most eye-catching colour combination, possibly to do with natural threats like bees, wasps and some snakes, though I suppode that could translate to easier reading. I personally think white on black, and (hard copy) black on white are nice to read.
I also quite like gentle tweaks, such as dark grey fonts which aren't arial.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 27, 2011, 04:37:07 AM
Back on Topic...
(1) On Light Guns In the arcade, I enjoyed light gun games. However, for whatever reason (they are many), it never seemed to be nearly as fun at home. I had the "Enforcer" for Sega-CD and dabbled with later light guns for later consoles. I suppose the same can be said for the Dance Dance games...they have never been as fun at home as in the arcade. I still enjoyed light guns/dance mats at home, but definitely some "magic" had been lost (at least for me). I don't know if this is simply because of the wonderful industrial hardware in the arcade, the social aspect, or what. I will freely admit that I need to re-play the home conversions of light gun games, and I'd be happy to do it. I actually enjoy the genre.
(1.5) TANGENT: Hybrid Games. Discussion of light gun games got me to thinking of SNATCHER and BAYOU BILLY. I actually enjoy the quirkiness of games that blend genres. For example, I recently mentioned here that I ACTUALLY ENJOYED Bayou Billy's light gun sequences (quite challenging!). I also enjoyed the driving sequences in that game, too, and I think I'm a fan of hybrid games in general. Obviously, some hybrid games are broken, which is a shame, because it stigmatizes the entire concept. The deeper problem, of course, is that mixing genres increases the chances of turning off a player (since tastes and interests are so finicky and subjective).
(2) On Bonk Series. Bonk 1 and 2 are the best, no debate. I personally have a strong attachment to Bonk 1 because I really liked the atmosphere it created. Even though Bonk's Revenge refines a lot of things, it could not re-create that initial feeling of "Wow, I love this new universe I'm exploring!" from the first game. Very few sequels have managed to do this, so this certainly isn't a knock against Bonk 2, by any means.
Bonk 2 was an extension of the first game (stage design, character design) with a few little twists to keep things fresh. I had a lot of fun with Bonk 2, it was everything I wanted it to be.
Bonk 3, though, I have only played via emulation, and it (both HuCard and CD) simply did not capture and hold my interest like the first two games. Sure, it looked like the previous games...
I have to be honest: by the time I played the SNES games (late- 90's onward), I was pretty dismissive of them. However, in the interest of making a fair comparison, I'd have to go back and give them another chance. (I used to be as dismissive towards Vigilante, for example, and now I like the game more than I ever did, even in 1989). So, who knows? Maybe I'll even give Bonk III another chance, but I doubt my verdict will change.
(3) On the increasing importance of music. I have less free time as I age, so video game music has become increasingly important as a way for me to stay connected and involved in the hobby I cherish. Of course, I always was a slut for video game music, but now the ratio of listening:playing is heavily weighted to the "listening" side because I can listen to music whilst commuting, driving, biking, cleaning cat litter, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: BEERS AND VIDEOS on March 27, 2011, 04:45:01 AM
Red text on a black background is one of the cardinal sins of web design.
But taking something that shouldn't work and doing it so well it does work is a good principle of design.
No, its a good stunt. Good final design begins with good fundamental design.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2011, 05:57:53 AM
The music in Bonk 1 is definitely the best. It has this soft, kind of eerie tone. Its all warm and fuzzy. The later games its just full blown cooky caveman cartoon music.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on March 27, 2011, 06:02:10 AM
(1.5) TANGENT: Hybrid Games. Discussion of light gun games got me to thinking of SNATCHER and BAYOU BILLY. I actually enjoy the quirkiness of games that blend genres.
Not well known contender in this category: SCUD: The Disposable Assassin for Saturn.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 27, 2011, 06:41:41 AM
Bayou Billy was a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 27, 2011, 06:45:18 AM
I think i have a theory on why Bonk is in a city in super bonk.
Maybe the levels are set in Bonk's dreams???
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 27, 2011, 06:50:35 AM
(1.5) TANGENT: Hybrid Games. Discussion of light gun games got me to thinking of SNATCHER and BAYOU BILLY. I actually enjoy the quirkiness of games that blend genres.
Not well known contender in this category: SCUD: The Disposable Assassin for Saturn.
Never heard if it before. I'll check it out, but the title screams "Total CRAPFEST"…but, I should judge a book by it's cover.
For me, Streets of Rage 1 beats it. SOR 3 also has horrible music. And the US color scheme for the main char is soo lame looking (JP colors are better).
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 27, 2011, 01:25:30 PM
(2) On Bonk Series. Bonk 1 and 2 are the best, no debate. I personally have a strong attachment to Bonk 1 because I really liked the atmosphere it created. Even though Bonk's Revenge refines a lot of things, it could not re-create that initial feeling of "Wow, I love this new universe I'm exploring!" from the first game. Very few sequels have managed to do this, so this certainly isn't a knock against Bonk 2, by any means.
Bonk 2 was an extension of the first game (stage design, character design) with a few little twists to keep things fresh. I had a lot of fun with Bonk 2, it was everything I wanted it to be.
Bonk 3, though, I have only played via emulation, and it (both HuCard and CD) simply did not capture and hold my interest like the first two games. Sure, it looked like the previous games...
I have to be honest: by the time I played the SNES games (late- 90's onward), I was pretty dismissive of them. However, in the interest of making a fair comparison, I'd have to go back and give them another chance. (I used to be as dismissive towards Vigilante, for example, and now I like the game more than I ever did, even in 1989). So, who knows? Maybe I'll even give Bonk III another chance, but I doubt my verdict will change.
(3) On the increasing importance of music. I have less free time as I age, so video game music has become increasingly important as a way for me to stay connected and involved in the hobby I cherish. Of course, I always was a slut for video game music, but now the ratio of listening:playing is heavily weighted to the "listening" side because I can listen to music whilst commuting, driving, biking, cleaning cat litter, etc. etc.
Such nice and agreeable thoughts on the bonk games. Also point (3) exactly describes as it is for me as well.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 27, 2011, 02:59:47 PM
But....how can you go wrong with the dash and roll moves in SoR 3. I love how they sped up the gameplay. No more walking and punching, run in there and beat the snot out of them. This is the main reason why i prefer the 3rd one. Also, the music does NOT suck. The gritty techno goes well with the locations in this game.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 27, 2011, 03:02:23 PM
(3) On the increasing importance of music. I have less free time as I age, so video game music has become increasingly important as a way for me to stay connected and involved in the hobby I cherish. Of course, I always was a slut for video game music, but now the ratio of listening:playing is heavily weighted to the "listening" side because I can listen to music whilst commuting, driving, biking, cleaning cat litter, etc. etc.
Obey da legendary Sega genesis soundchip. Obey da music in Mega Turrican, Musha, Sonic, Gunstar heroes, Castlevania bloodlines and Vectorman. It is da only right thing to do.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: lord_cack on March 27, 2011, 03:43:01 PM
(3) On the increasing importance of music. I have less free time as I age, so video game music has become increasingly important as a way for me to stay connected and involved in the hobby I cherish. Of course, I always was a slut for video game music, but now the ratio of listening:playing is heavily weighted to the "listening" side because I can listen to music whilst commuting, driving, biking, cleaning cat litter, etc. etc.
Obey da legendary Sega genesis soundchip....
hehe, thats a good one. Even used da funny words to prove da point dat it was da joke.... or were you serious?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 27, 2011, 05:58:43 PM
I hear what you're saying, but I think it also has a lot to do with the monitor in question. It contrasts very well on my LCD monitor, in fact it's almost clearer and easier to read for me to read than the yellow. I'd like to hear other people's opinions, as I said, this is the first I've heard of it. If the general consensus is that it's unreadable, I'll consider changing it.
I also wonder if your browser isn't rendering the font correctly; the font isn't supposed to be a thin-line font.
It's a sans serif font, meaning it's clean, but also that it's a little thin. I don't think Mozilla 4 has any notable problems with font rendering at this time. I think the problem is the color, frankly. My monitor is fine, really, but I'm pickier about color contrast than some. You take enough usability classes and you start to notice things other people don't think are all that important (but secretly can be).
Also, Nintendo learned that red is not a good color to stare at on LCD screens when they released the Virtual Boy.
I love the content of the site and I respect you a lot on these forums, but the color scheme of your site just really isn't attractive or easy on the eyes. The yellow text is the only text that I'm comfortable reading and don't tire of looking at, and even then it's not particularly attractive.
Still, I'm trying to read. There's some good stuff there.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 27, 2011, 06:02:00 PM
Black text on a yellow background is scientifically the easiest thing to read.
Thats why school busses and hazard signs are made like this.
Actually, it's the most eye-catching colour combination, possibly to do with natural threats like bees, wasps and some snakes, though I suppode that could translate to easier reading. I personally think white on black, and (hard copy) black on white are nice to read.
I also quite like gentle tweaks, such as dark grey fonts which aren't arial.
I somewhat agree. Yes, black on yellow is to get attention, not for long, relaxed reads. I think my favorite color combination for readability is strong yellow text on a medium dark blue background. It's not much to look at, and is probably a bad idea for web design, but I find it easy to read. I also like the color scheme for this forum site a lot, actually. Medium greys and blues, and dark text on an off-white background. Very easy to take in and read comfortably.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Necromancer on March 28, 2011, 05:04:34 AM
I hear what you're saying, but I think it also has a lot to do with the monitor in question. It contrasts very well on my LCD monitor, in fact it's almost clearer and easier to read for me to read than the yellow. I'd like to hear other people's opinions, as I said, this is the first I've heard of it. If the general consensus is that it's unreadable, I'll consider changing it.
I can read it just fine, without having to enable my zoom function or other optical effects, like split screen, slow motion, QuantelTM.
For those that are having a hard time reading such text, try selecting it which makes it into blue text on a white background.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 28, 2011, 05:58:53 AM
I hear what you're saying, but I think it also has a lot to do with the monitor in question. It contrasts very well on my LCD monitor, in fact it's almost clearer and easier to read for me to read than the yellow. I'd like to hear other people's opinions, as I said, this is the first I've heard of it. If the general consensus is that it's unreadable, I'll consider changing it.
I can read it just fine, without having to enable my zoom function or other optical effects, like split screen, slow motion, QuantelTM.
For those that are having a hard time reading such text, try selecting it which makes it into blue text on a white background.
Sure, as a stopgap solution that's passable, with with better design everyone would win, not just some. Hey, at least we've all concluded the content is worth reading!
And to get back on the forum topic, I confess that Bonk 2 was a real draw for me on the Turbo. Even though all Bonk's actions have just a little delay to them, I really liked the game, better than the others in the series. It's just... I dunno, fun. Between the bonus levels and all the little powerups hidden around the huge levels... The game amused me more than the other two.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 28, 2011, 08:43:40 AM
(3) On the increasing importance of music. I have less free time as I age, so video game music has become increasingly important as a way for me to stay connected and involved in the hobby I cherish. Of course, I always was a slut for video game music, but now the ratio of listening:playing is heavily weighted to the "listening" side because I can listen to music whilst commuting, driving, biking, cleaning cat litter, etc. etc.
Obey da legendary Sega genesis soundchip....
hehe, thats a good one. Even used da funny words to prove da point dat it was da joke.... or were you serious?
The Genesis sound chip is pretty awesome. There are many great tunes for it. I won't argue with anyone who thinks the PCE sounds better (and it does sound awesome). But let's put it this way: Just because the PCE sounds awesome doesn't mean that the Genesis sounds bad.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 28, 2011, 08:54:01 AM
Yep, lightening force/Thunder force 4 for the win.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 28, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
The Genesis sound chip is pretty awesome. There are many great tunes for it. I won't argue with anyone who thinks the PCE sounds better (and it does sound awesome). But let's put it this way: Just because the PCE sounds awesome doesn't mean that the Genesis sounds bad.
A sound chip is only as good as the one who programs it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 28, 2011, 10:53:08 AM
Very, very true.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 28, 2011, 10:59:15 AM
I just couldn't believe what Sunsoft did with the Genesis sound chip. Truly amazing!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 28, 2011, 11:53:05 AM
The Genesis sound chip is pretty awesome. There are many great tunes for it. I won't argue with anyone who thinks the PCE sounds better (and it does sound awesome). But let's put it this way: Just because the PCE sounds awesome doesn't mean that the Genesis sounds bad.
That's how I look at consoles and games in general. Nothing has to be good at the expense of something else.
The Genesis' sound is not only awesome in general, but very unique, even for FM sound. It has the perfect combination of FM, PSG and samples, but more importantly there are so many games with great music.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 28, 2011, 12:22:48 PM
I cant believe what Atari did with the 2600's sound chip. Goddamn its awful.
yellow on blue is the best. BORLAND C++ WHAT.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 28, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
Truth told, I think the NES sound chip was stretched the most and achieved the greatest highs considering the limitations.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 28, 2011, 03:21:11 PM
I just couldn't believe what Sunsoft did with the Genesis sound chip. Truly amazing!
Sunsoft's music for Aero the Acrobat series really sucks.
Must've been a bad programming team. Never really liked the game anyway.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 28, 2011, 03:35:28 PM
sequel is a good game, i personally like it! first one was ass. ...
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 28, 2011, 05:25:18 PM
Aero the Acrobat, Zero the Squirrel, Blaster Master 2, Batman Revenge of the Joker etc etc were all done in the US or UK as far as I know and did not use Sunsoft's renowned Japanese team. These games all sounds rally bad. All games that came before them sound really good. Batman for the PCE has great music, it's like the NES' music (same tunes) only better.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 28, 2011, 05:50:55 PM
Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel is a very good game bro.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 28, 2011, 07:00:51 PM
I never thought any of those games were too bad . Aero was pretty chunky but it was still a fun one.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 28, 2011, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: ddd1234
Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel is a very good game bro.
OK bro, but the music still sucks.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 29, 2011, 12:17:30 AM
Truth told, I think the NES sound chip was stretched the most and achieved the greatest highs considering the limitations.
I am biased towards NES/Famicom, so naturally I agree. I think that many, many tunes are outstanding, especially considering the technical limitations.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2011, 12:39:23 AM
As for 8-bit generations, SID was the best ever :)
I just love it, and what peeps made out of its limitations. It sounded great, still does and ever will.
Soo many great memories. And yet so many great tunes to discover.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 29, 2011, 04:34:59 AM
Truth told, I think the NES sound chip was stretched the most and achieved the greatest highs considering the limitations.
I am biased towards NES/Famicom, so naturally I agree. I think that many, many tunes are outstanding, especially considering the technical limitations.
Even though the game is nearly unplayable Silver Surfer has some of the best music on the NES! I am not kidding!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2011, 05:29:39 AM
lol, nobody is gonna say that you're kidding. It's made by Tim and Geoff Follin. The compose master(s) of the 8bit era.
I just have that strong feeling that you would gonna love SID music soooo much!!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 29, 2011, 05:30:57 AM
lol, nobody is gonna say that you're kidding. It's made by Tim and Geoff Follin. The compose master(s) of the 8bit era.
I just have that strong feeling that you would gonna love SID music soooo much!!
What pray tell is SID???
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2011, 05:38:49 AM
THIS IS SID:
Cybernoid 1:
Cybernoid 2:
Turbo Outrun intro tune
Hot Rod intro tune
Savage 2nd level
Aspar GP intro tune
Rubicon (title)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SuperDeadite on March 29, 2011, 05:42:37 AM
Don't forget the best one!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 29, 2011, 11:03:59 AM
The SID can do some good sound but I am definitely not a fan of arpeggios. They bring ANY sound far, far down. That Last Ninja tune would be better without the high-pitched arpeggio thing that keeps happening. I like NES music better.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 29, 2011, 12:10:40 PM
The SID can do some good sound but I am definitely not a fan of arpeggios. They bring ANY sound far, far down. That Last Ninja tune would be better without the high-pitched arpeggio thing that keeps happening. I like NES music better.
Over arping is a European thing. SO many euro games are arptastic abortions.
The SID had the least limitations of any of the era's chips. I mean, its basically a fullblown synth without a keyboard to play it. (Easily fixed with a MIDI interface, one of the many programs out there, and a midi controller).
Its big problem is one volume register and filter so blending sounds right was tricky.
Hence RType having no SFX
and Double Dragon having no music
And Intergalactic Cage Match sounding like a retard camp took a field trip to guitar center.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 29, 2011, 12:14:26 PM
Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC! :D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 29, 2011, 12:59:31 PM
Quote from: Arkhan
Over arping is a European thing. SO many euro games are arptastic abortions.
I have noticed this. However they are not abortions. But they SHOULD have been aborted!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2011, 01:40:36 PM
Don't forget the best one! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGFV_xxR64
It's a very great one fo'sho, but not the best. Anyway there are sooo many great tunez out there. I can assemble a big best of some days, since i'm lissening to SIDs since mid 80s on a regular basis :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 29, 2011, 01:47:03 PM
Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC! :D
On the c64? probably sx64 :D
Cybernoid 1 & 2 are two of my most fav. chip-tunez ever. Jeroen Tel was my hero back in the days, he made so many great tunez. And he was only two years older than me..lol. Speaken of o that, he was 16 when he made those both. And as you can imagine, at that time you even had to write your own routines and codes to be able to squeeze out such beautiful tones.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ddd1234 on March 29, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
Hey i played space harrier 2, and it's kinda fun.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 29, 2011, 04:58:55 PM
I really don't like that fluttering thing Euro chiptunes composers do with many of the sound effects. I'm very glad it was not widespread here in the US. What a lot of those SID composers did required talent, but I don't personally like it much. Just not for me.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on March 29, 2011, 05:01:25 PM
I personally enjoy that aspect of it. And, I didn't grow up with it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 29, 2011, 05:54:04 PM
I really don't like that fluttering thing Euro chiptunes composers do with many of the sound effects. I'm very glad it was not widespread here in the US. What a lot of those SID composers did required talent, but I don't personally like it much. Just not for me.
that fluttering thing is the arp thing me and Joe are currently not liking.
in moderation, it is a nice little effect........ however, alot of the times, it is overused to hell.
Part of this is because in trackers, doing arps is pretty simple. you just put a number next to the note more or less. Theres a bit more to it thats not worth explaining, but safe to say, you can punch in fluttery arpcrap faster than you can type out the alphabet.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on March 30, 2011, 02:57:46 AM
Arpeggios aren't just sound chip abuse -- they actually serve to form chords on sound chips that have few channels and need more oomph like the SID and SMS PSG. They also lend a lot more personality to a note, something Japanese musicians often fail to do because they stick slavishly to melody, flat note on, flat note off.
Anyway, our favourite game Magical Chase has several arpeggio moments in its stellar soundtrack. You can tell Hitoshi Sakimoto (or the other guy) was a bit enamoured with European game music.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on March 30, 2011, 03:31:54 AM
Impossamole is loaded with them. :D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 30, 2011, 03:40:11 AM
nice said chris :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on March 30, 2011, 04:48:39 AM
Arpeggios aren't just sound chip abuse -- they actually serve to form chords on sound chips that have few channels and need more oomph like the SID and SMS PSG. They also lend a lot more personality to a note, something Japanese musicians often fail to do because they stick slavishly to melody, flat note on, flat note off.
Yup. Though they never come anywhere near close enough to sounding like a real chord (in whatever instrument or waveform you chose). It does add personality to an otherwise extremely flat chip like the SMS PSG and related (no duty cycles, fixed waveforms, no triangle or sine, etc). But it's just soo over used on those chips that it's a personal turn off for me, most of time, as an otherwise saturating and distracting effect when too pronounced.
SID composers might have used it for a chord effect originally since the chip is pretty limited in the number of channels, but SID has plenty of other methods to provide personality to a channels sound than resorting to something like Arps. An EU thing I guess.
Quote
Anyway, our favourite game Magical Chase has several arpeggio moments in its stellar soundtrack. You can tell Hitoshi Sakimoto (or the other guy) was a bit enamoured with European game music.
Yeah, I was surprised to learn that a number of years back too. A Japanese music developer using Arps :shock: Though in his defense, only about 3 songs used it out of all the tracks and only 1 song of those uses it for most of the song (other two only in opening bits and such). And it's not overly pronounced. I rather like it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on March 30, 2011, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: Arkhan
Over arping is a European thing. SO many euro games are arptastic abortions.
Yeah, but that's all we ever needed 8) Japanese made the best games back then. No use in playing anything else, really :mrgreen:
Yeah, until they went really perverted and overloaded the market with dating Sims.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on March 30, 2011, 07:50:22 AM
Don't get me wrong, I think these arps can be used well (in moderation and subtly), but I've heard a lot of Euro PC game soundtracks that warble the frick out of every note, and that gets old REALLY fast.
*EDIT* I guess I should clarify, then, that I don't have a problem so much with the arpeggios so much as I have a problem with their omnipresence. I like them until I hear a C64 track, and then for some reason I hate them.
Yeah, Japanese composers can be melody whores, but they do often do some really nice percussion lines on the noise channels.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 30, 2011, 11:13:31 AM
Quote from: ccovell
Arpeggios aren't just sound chip abuse -- they actually serve to form chords on sound chips that have few channels and need more oomph like the SID and SMS PSG.
Arpeggios are the equivalent of dithering. So Arpeggios are good but dithering is bad? I don't hear chords, I hear a wobbling note. Maybe I hear faster than most, I don't know. But anyone who actually hears chords from arpeggios must be listening through RF or have some sort of blur filter on their audio (just like dithering works with graphics). The Flash has some of the worst music for the Sega Master System. It doesn't sound beefy at all. There is no "oomph" to it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on March 30, 2011, 11:20:46 AM
Yes, comparing arps to dithering is not so far off. But it is still such high-speed "dithering" that it's more like magazine halftone printing than in-game videogame dithering. Without even the dithering in the printing industry, all your magazines would be composed of bands of 4 solid colours. :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on March 30, 2011, 11:24:22 AM
Overdone arpeggios suck ass.
The worst song on the entire Turbo platform? The Impossamole title screen track.
This is fact, and it's no coincidence.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 30, 2011, 12:06:02 PM
arps are wonderful, colorful little explosions when used right. However, when thats ALL that is used, the melody is quickly lost, and you have background noise instead of a nice song. Its exactly like the sweep-arpeggiated metal guitar shit going on today. Eventually it becomes "ok, please stop. do something else". But when you throw little sweep runs in the middle of things, and chain them together with actual melodies, it sounds really great.
My Roland SH-101 mimics the SID sound very well, including the arps. Though, I can do way cooler arps due to it being a keyboard. More complexity to the chords, yay.
The SIDs real color and life comes from layering nicely filtered, PWM'd leads together. Its the layering of the channels that makes the sound chip sound great. Each of those channels on their own aren't really very unique. see, no arps. Sounds nice. Nice arps. Not overused and disastrous. The thick as f*ck bass carries the tune. Whenever the arps/chords occur, they dont overtake anything and you don't lose the melody. Perfection.
and Tats, America may not have done anything stellar, but we also didn't over-arp the shit out of every chip we ever touched, and produce completely asstastic ports of awesome games.
This was so bad, Konami didn't let white people touch their games for awhile.
Yeah, but that's all we ever needed 8) Japanese made the best games back then. No use in playing anything else, really :mrgreen:
Yeah, until they went really perverted and overloaded the market with dating Sims.
Most of those dating sims are pretty fun. Including the ones that are all f*cked up and strange/unrealistic. Jast had alot of good ones.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 30, 2011, 12:51:04 PM
I don't mind if they are used intermittently, but when they are used as a main instrument, I am bothered by it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheOldMan on March 30, 2011, 01:55:22 PM
Quote
Yes, comparing arps to dithering is not so far off. But it is still such high-speed "dithering" that it's more like magazine halftone printing ....
Hunh? Maybe if the dots on the paper changed sizes.... Half-toning would be more like silencing a voice on/off, like through a fan, maybe.
Quote
Without even the dithering in the printing industry, all your magazines would be composed of bands of 4 solid colours.
Okay, am I the only one having trouble with this comparison? Dithering is when you place 2 or more dots next to each other, to 'trick' the eye into seeing a third color, right? Or is there some other kind of dithering you're talking about???
Halftoning, on the other hand, is when you place larger or smaller dots of a single color on a sheet of paper, to make the color look more/less saturated. Even using one color and a background, you can get a -lot- of shades of the color, by varying the dot size.
And I happen to like comic-style 4 color artwork, thank you.
--------- I do understand what you're trying to say, though. Arps (properly called apeggios, for those who don't know) are an attempt to mimic a chord sound in one channel- but there is an inherent flaw in that. The human ear can hear up to about 41KHz; anything that changes faster than that most people won't be able to hear. And anything slower, they will hear as two distinct tones (and not the combined frequencies of a chord). Maybe if you mixed the frequencies together and went for the combination, it might work. To me, they just sound like someone trying too hard to play something simple . (Kinda like when they do all the fancy trills and stuff on american idol; the song wasn't originally written with all that stuff, so quit putting it in - it only ruins the song! Sing what's written, and Quit Showing Off. Or can't you hold a single note in tune that long???)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on March 30, 2011, 02:04:11 PM
true arpeggios are meant to be elegant.
Arpeggios are just the notes of a chord played one after the other. The place they came from, classical music, uses them quite nicely as a way to blend melody, and provide background depth while other things are going on.
You don't really hear bubbly super fast 240bpm blerpberlp arpeggios in classical music land. That would be kind of hilarious though.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on March 31, 2011, 11:09:56 PM
THE RAMPANT ANTI-ARPEGGIO PROPAGANDA IS BUNK
Sorry folks, but you're missing out on a literal goldmine of fantastic tunes. I pity you, but, clearly, musical taste is one of the most subjective things in life and I will just say to you: "Don't be a hater" :)
ANTI-C64 PROPAGANDA IS BUNK
Even if you LOATHE arpeggio+C64, you can spend eons listening to marvelous tracks that never/barely use arpeggio.
So, please do not allow your arpeggio intolerance to dismiss the entire C64 goldmine of tunes.
The worst song on the entire Turbo platform? The Impossamole title screen track.
This is fact, and it's no coincidence.
FALSE. In the Turbo library, it is one of the standout title screens. In fact, this is law. I am law. :)
Seriously, though, I really do love the title music to Impossamole.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: grahf on April 01, 2011, 05:27:39 AM
C64 kicks ass. Back in those days I didn't really pay attention to music in games (didn't really listen to music much at all in my teens), but even I knew there was something special about the Commodore.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 01, 2011, 09:20:45 AM
Am I the only red-blooded American who is pro-arpeggio?!
Fellow North Americans, you have let down your continent.
:)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 01, 2011, 01:00:31 PM
C64 kicks ass. Back in those days I didn't really pay attention to music in games (didn't really listen to music much at all in my teens), but even I knew there was something special about the Commodore.
the SID is what made the commodore succeed as far as games. If you had any of the other bleepers, it would not have been nearly as distinguished or desirable over other machines.
Imagine it with your standard speccy bleep bloopity crap, on top of muddy, chunky graphics.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 01, 2011, 04:00:44 PM
Sure the c64 was all about its music, that why I loved it so much even after I got me an Amiga, and still love it today. Sometimes music can be the motivation factor number 1 in a game, as far c64 games go, this was almost the case for every game.
I'M LOVIN' IT!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 01, 2011, 06:06:37 PM
anyone who actually hears chords from arpeggios must be listening through RF or ...
The chord is implicite when one hears the notes that comprise it. Music and the humans that make/hear it work together to make this happen. Its fundimental aspect of music. One plays chords on a bass guitar, even though usually only one note is played at a time.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on April 01, 2011, 06:33:46 PM
anyone who actually hears chords from arpeggios must be listening through RF or ...
The chord is implicite when one hears the notes that comprise it. Music and the humans that make/hear it work together to make this happen. Its fundimental aspect of music. One plays chords on a bass guitar, even though usually only one note is played at a time.
Yeah, but there are sound waves overlaying on top of each of the rapid plucked strings. On the C64 and other chips, they use a single channel. There's no overlaying of any of the notes on different channels.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 01, 2011, 07:52:25 PM
You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 01, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Something must be wrong somewhere because I do not interpret chords from C64 arpeggios. They almost make me laugh because they sound so silly.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: grahf on April 01, 2011, 10:07:43 PM
You might have mono.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 02, 2011, 02:16:37 AM
hahaha.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 02, 2011, 02:54:25 AM
You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.
I do not this this is consistent with natural human hearing and will pretty much vary based on individual perception. It is a kludge to make up for a deficiency. Used well it can produce some interesting variety. I perceive that it's not usually used well. I'm glad some of you like it. If it was widely hated it would probably not have been used to much, but I do think there's a cultural divide in how it is received.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 02, 2011, 07:53:19 AM
It's appreciated in Europe, but Europe operates at 50Hz. Why? Because their brains are slower. Since the average European's brain is so incredibly slow, the warbling arpeggios does interpolate into a single chord for them since they cannot think fast enough to perceive the warble. :)
FACT: The C64 has no music that can compete with the likes of Blaster Master, Batman, Mega Man 2, etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 02, 2011, 07:58:40 AM
lol, LOL. TELL ME AGAIN HUMAIN.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 02, 2011, 08:59:58 AM
I think I misunderstood this concept of arping that C64 fans have. I've been explaining that chords and polyphony aren't necisarity integral (ie: you're too focus on chords as in guitar chords, but chords exist in monophonicly in many types of music).
Now that I'm thinking back to what little C64 music I've heard, I think what you guys call an arpeggio is really more like vibrato. If it is an actual arp, it's an arp that uses 256th notes or some shit to approximate vibrato because vibrato doesn't exists as a hardware function on the C64's sound chip. It does, therefore, sort of sound like a guitar chord (ie: polyphonic).
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on April 02, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.
But your example does have polyphony. And that does have an influencing factor. But your example isn't really relative to chiptunes, since chiptunes are doing it at a much faster rate than any guitarist including this guy:
And chiptunes are using a single channel (for an obvious reason, lack of channels to make a real chord). There's a hard cut off from note to note of the rapid succession of looped notes. That cutoff is perceived by the listener. It makes it even more harsh/standout.
The listener isn't hearing a chord, else you wouldn't hear the artifacts of the low frequency note changing. If it was note changing at like 16khz or such, it'd probably sound pretty solid or close to a normal chord. It would be 'interpolated' around that point. I'm not saying the listener isn't getting or perceiving something from the rapid succession of notes that would be a chord, but at a low frequency output rate - else the method wouldn't work as it does. I'm just saying it's not a perceived 'chord'. It's something else. And that something else already has a name: arpeggio (in the chiptune context).
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 02, 2011, 10:19:32 AM
If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord. Polyphony is not a necessary component of a chord. Strummed guitar chords are not the only definition of "chord". This isn't a hardware/C64 thing, it's a musical thing.
I'm not sure which "example" you are referring too.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 02, 2011, 10:52:47 AM
My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.
She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 02, 2011, 01:18:16 PM
...She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.
I love your wife :). But, as we all know, alcohol and arpeggios are not mutually exclusive. ;)
My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.
She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.
Heh. Definitions get tricky. Tremolo in the modern sense (not just chiptunes) is the variation of the strength of volume over a played note. In extreme case, note on/off. Usually repeated on the same note. The 'trem bar' on electric guitars is incorrectly named, for instance. What is does is bending of a pitch: vibrato. Though they got the name right for the FX pedal effect (which is a true tremolo effect). Definitions for specific instruments and/or classical instruments are more.. messy in definition. Cause sometimes the effect also has the characteristics of other effects/method as a result. But the name doesn't change. Just look at classic guitar tremolo playing VS electric guitar tremolo FX pedal. Nothing alike. The name, applied to a specific instrument, can be almost completely different in design and nature. Chiptune trackers have tremolo support and if you tried to tell a chiptune composer than his/her arpeggio effect is a tremolo effect: they'll give you a sideways look.
Quote
If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord.
Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord. They sound nothing alike (and even more different in the chiptune context because... I'm sick of repeating myself). This discussion is getting out of context. I'll save myself the aggravation not continuing this conversation with you.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on April 02, 2011, 02:04:08 PM
FACT: The C64 has no music that can compete with the likes of Blaster Master, Batman, Mega Man 2, etc etc etc.
It's apples and oranges, dude. While MM2's songs might be great, they also loop in 30 seconds. The C64 is full of (yeah, okay, call it "prog-rock") compositions that go on for 10 or 15 minutes. What other game system did that before CD-ROM music came around?
Example: (listen all the way to the end; I've cut the first 6 minutes to cater to your attention span.) The Last Ninja. Fewer arpeggios than most. Atmosphere rivaling Ninja Spirit!
Both games, incidentally, appeared on the NES and sound like total ass there.
Also: Tim Follin. More flutey, less arpy:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on April 02, 2011, 02:48:08 PM
Don't forget about Wally Beben's "Tetris" music... it goes like 20+ minutes before it loops. I'm listening to it right now. :P 13 minutes in and it hasn't looped yet...
And actually... arpeggio really is the correct musical term, not tremolo. The difference is that an arpeggio's purpose is to construct a chord out of individual notes, whereas a tremolo is a series of individual notes not intended to form a chord but rather a sequence. Of course, you also have to know when you're hearing a tremolo and when you're hearing an arpeggio, as both are used in C64 sidtunes. Arpeggios are much more common though. Someone strumming a muted chord on a guitar slow enough to hear each note played yet fast enough to still recognize the chord as-is might be considered an arpeggio. A tremolo, on the other hand, would be something along the lines of fretboard tapping... notes played in rapid reiteration. And Bonknuts is right... that damn thing on an electric that some call a "tremolo bar" is sooooo wrongly named... it's vibrato, not tremolo. "Vibrato bar" is a much more accurate term. But most people just call it a "whammy bar" anyways, so it doesn't matter. :)
I study music theory and I have deep respect for anyone else who does. :)
EDIT: 25 minutes into Tetris and still no loop... though it's playing at PAL speed, which does make it a little slower.
EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped. :D
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 02, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord.
Music is a pretty well studied art form. I wouldn't dare to invent definitions of anything. Talk to a music instructor or just Wiki it. I'm not being "liberal". A chord is not an inherently polyphonic thing.
Anyway...
Something important here to understand is that the terms like tremolo and vibrato and arpeggio were invented to describe techniques used in the music that was being made at that time, with the instruments that were being used at that time. A C64 might very well be arping, but if its only arping two notes and its doing it at a really high frequency then the difference between that and vibrato is...well, there isn't much of one, in practical terms. I guess if the rate is high enough and there are 3 notes or more it could be said that its emulating a strummed, polyphonic guitar chord. Even if it doesn't sound exactly like it, the sensation is similar. Personally, I'd like to think it was its own thing. Not everything has a historical precedent.
BTW, I agree with the awesomeness of the C64 prog rock compositions. So cool.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 02, 2011, 03:53:14 PM
Well, either way, what's being done on the C64 resembles vocal tremolo more than an arpeggio (according to the Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music). I would argue that it is probably truly neither. Even general music terms are often linked to an instrument or genre. It seems that electronically generated music does not have the kind of robust technical vocabulary. For example, what we've been calling arps are all attack and no body or close, due to the nature of the extremely rapid repetition and the nature of the waveform of the notes. There is no sustain from residual vibration as you would have on a stringed or percussion instrument. We're talking about a unique "instrument" which needs its own language to describe what it's doing. Only the most basic terms already established will really apply because those terms are so tied to the physicality of human instruments.
*later edit* It just occurred to me that the "arping" also sounds a lot like trilling, like on a flute. It's just a VERY extended trill in some ways. Maybe we need to call it a "trilpeggolo".
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on April 02, 2011, 04:02:20 PM
I'm no music student, but I thought a trill was rapid switching between only two notes (as in Legendary Axe II) while arpeggio was cycling between 3 (or more) notes?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 02, 2011, 04:31:40 PM
If we generate a hybrid term encompassing all the different situations that this particular sound manipulation contains aspects of, we avoid the fact that this discussion has devolved to something largely semantic.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 02, 2011, 06:35:00 PM
Quote from: The Old Rover
EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped.
That's pathetic! REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days. 26 minutes is just sad. What a sad little musician who can only come up with 26 minutes of material for a single song.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: ccovell on April 02, 2011, 07:10:55 PM
Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC! :D
Lissen to this other (and his only one on the MD) work, you might love this as well :)
Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically). And the best (or worst) thing, it not even got released. lol, LOL, tell me agaain hümäin!
PS. lissen to it via (gun)he(a)dphones :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 03, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC! :D
Lissen to this other (and his only one on the MD) work, you might love this as well :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyEbu8cmMg
Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically). And the best (or worst) thing, it not even got released. lol, LOL, tell me agaain hümäin!
PS. lissen to it via (gun)he(a)dphones :)
Thanks for the link. I never thought he worked on MegaDrive/Genesis. I know this isn't a prank, but still... :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 03, 2011, 04:03:10 AM
Follin was a musical god. His Speccy arrangement is one of my favourites of his.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 03, 2011, 05:00:41 AM
There's more Follin to come in the future (Plok will show up at some point).
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 03, 2011, 07:21:40 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin
Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically).
It's a great track, but best ever, definitely not. Certainly not on a technical level. ResQ has better instruments and that was just wimpy ol' Matt Furnis (furnace?). I do wish there was a ROM released with that track on it, though, as the model 2 that it was clearly recorded from is known for its horrible audio quality.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 03, 2011, 09:45:00 AM
all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.
He still f*cked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail. BUT HE DID.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on April 03, 2011, 12:21:17 PM
all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.
He still f*cked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail. BUT HE DID.
He still rules in my book. :wink:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Jesse813 on April 03, 2011, 02:28:14 PM
I prefer the PC Engine because it has a lot of unique games that you can't find anywhere else that are really good and also lots of awesome SHMUPS. I still love the Genesis, NES, SMS & SNES just not as much as the PCE
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 03, 2011, 05:34:50 PM
Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes oneof the best tune on the MD ever (technically).
It's a great track, but best ever, definitely not. Certainly not on a technical level. ResQ has better instruments and that was just wimpy ol' Matt Furnis (furnace?). I do wish there was a ROM released with that track on it, though, as the model 2 that it was clearly recorded from is known for its horrible audio quality.
Re-quoted for re-reading :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 03, 2011, 05:36:52 PM
all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.
He still f*cked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail. BUT HE DID.
He still rules in my book. :wink:
sure he does. and he ever will. smart peeps know! haters gonna hate! nuff said.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 03, 2011, 06:15:20 PM
As soon as you type or say "haters gonna/gotta hate" for any purpose other than to mock the phrase, you instantly lower your IQ by 15 points. Those are the rules the universe plays by. Who are we to dissent?
That is a pretty kick-ass MD track, though. It's one of the best I've heard and does stuff I didn't know the MD could do. When I looked up some more of his stuff on YouTube, though, I wasn't as impressed.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 03, 2011, 06:17:25 PM
I am convinced if you took something ho-hum/bland and said Tim Folin made it, Tats would go OMGrorgogGO TEH FOLIN IS GOD.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 03, 2011, 06:48:38 PM
try me :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 03, 2011, 06:58:47 PM
As soon as you type or say "haters gonna/gotta hate" for any purpose other than to mock the phrase, you instantly lower your IQ by 15 points. Those are the rules the universe plays by. Who are we to dissent?
Yeah, it's not exactly the phrase I usually like to use as well, but sometimes you have to bit of overreacting to get the required attention ;)
That is a pretty kick-ass MD track, though. It's one of the best I've heard and does stuff I didn't know the MD could do.
Indeed it is. And just imagine that it is his first and only ever try on that machine. In an interview he said, that he doesn't really like that machine for its undersophicated music capabilities (may be he refers to the very white noisy FM and stuff). But he tried the best possible to do with. I think, mission accomplished.
When I looked up some more of his stuff on YouTube, though, I wasn't as impressed.
For what stuff did you looked up?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nodtveidt on April 04, 2011, 03:15:02 AM
Even geniuses have their bad days.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 04, 2011, 04:06:29 AM
Made a yu0vid of one of my fav Tim Tunes :)
It is an unused tune from the game LED Storm. Great Bassline! I wish they would have put it into the final game.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 04, 2011, 05:58:51 AM
He did great things with the also. Share the Tim love!
The Coral Sea tune has an almost PC Engine quality to it.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 04, 2011, 01:30:04 PM
Yeah, love Tim's CUS of Amiga L.E.D. Storm. Very dream BGM, lissened many many hours to it in my childhood (especially intro and high-score), still do today :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 04, 2011, 01:47:38 PM
You pointed it out? Right. Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically mean it is completely messed up unusable utterly crap!
I like some of the G'n'G tracks. They are very raw and have that fearing undergroundish atmosphere. Especially the last level.
We can argue now about its sound quality in general. but from a composing point of view, a can't see much wrong with it.
He didn't compose the tracks he butchered. All he had to do was pick the right instrumentation and he didn't.
He quite composed all the tracks from very scratch. Can't you hear the difference between hims and the originals in terms of the compositions? Only Level 2 & 4 are taken over from the original and even there he extended the songs to like tripple of the original length throwing his very own compositions in.
That tells me quite clear, that you barely lissened to them really.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 06, 2011, 04:16:06 PM
Who cares if he tripled the length? That just means he butchers it even longer.
I played through the first 4 levels of GnG on Amiga and thought the music was complete crap.
Compared to the SGX version, its a joke. A victim of sampling disasters.
Just like R-Type.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 06, 2011, 04:29:31 PM
As I just said on the previous page, we can argue on the quality concerning the samples the tunes are made of, but I can't see much wrong on the composition side. This was your point, that he didn't composed them, but on which you are wrong, since he took over not even 15% of the original tracks content overall.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 07, 2011, 05:35:13 AM
I feel a Wibble special on Amiga Ghouls 'n' Ghosts coming on...
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on April 07, 2011, 05:40:47 AM
I feel a Wibble special on Amiga Ghouls 'n' Ghosts coming on...
You should :)
I will.
Ark will fall in a hole :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SuperDeadite on April 07, 2011, 06:25:47 AM
I loved playing Lemmings and Apprentice on my friend's Amiga back in the day. But other then that, I've really never understood the appeal of that computer.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 07, 2011, 06:33:24 AM
I loved playing Lemmings and Apprentice on my friend's Amiga back in the day. But other then that, I've really never understood the appeal of that computer.
Proably you should have played others than just lemmings and apprentice then?
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SuperDeadite on April 07, 2011, 06:37:11 AM
But there was Lemmings, then Oh No More Lemmings!, then Lemmings 2 The Tribes. After that We had NES, Sega Genesis, and a 486 with Doom. Doom>Amiga
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 07, 2011, 07:45:47 AM
Compared to their console counterparts, most Amiga games were rubbish. But I loved the machine to bits because you really had the ability to create on it - DPaint, Amos, MED etc...all brilliant bits of software. And the PD scene allowed you to really share your work for the first time. That's what made it a winner for me.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 07, 2011, 11:04:29 AM
I was generally fascinated with the Amiga because of the Video Toaster and Lightwave 3D. But when I finally borrowed my friend's Amiga for a while I was like "WTF is this trash?" And yes, it had Lightwave and The Video Toaster.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 08, 2011, 12:00:46 PM
I feel a Wibble special on Amiga Ghouls 'n' Ghosts coming on...
Heck yeah!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Black Tiger on April 08, 2011, 12:36:24 PM
Whether it really is good or not, European game musicians seemed to love the kind of arpeggio that hurts my ears.
An example of nice arpeggio on Turbo/PCE is the Somer Assault/Mesopotamia soundtrack.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 08, 2011, 02:04:53 PM
I totally loved cocked up "recompositions" of songs, complete with gay sampled guitars where applicable. I mean I guess it's cool for a title tune, sort of. If you like guitars that sound like a toy.
They're SO GREAT CAUSE TIIIIIIIIIM FOLIN MADED THEM.
And what the hell is this about? The first level omits the classic tune that gets you pumped for your epic adventure...... and replaces it with some repetitive background noise.
All of the Amiga tracks lack that eerie horror movie vibe that was present even in the NES GAME. It's replaced by stupid peppy nonsense and whatever else you want to call it.
Maybe if the stuff wasn't in Ghouls n Ghosts it would be ok. It doesn't fit the game at all and just sounds like Tim being full of himself and taking artistic liberties since everyone verbally strokes the guy off. IM TIM FOLLIN, THEYLL LOVE IT.
As for the Amiga, I've had a bunch of Amigas over the years. The exclusives aren't worth a damn and the rest of the stuff is better elsewhere. Too many games are up to jump, one button centric disasters because of stupidity. Some games support multi button, but the majority... nope. You are atari-joysticking that crap.
and I stress the term crap.
When you've got a PCE+CD and a Sega Genesis + CD, what the hell do you need an Amiga for besides a doorstop?
EDIT:
See, why the hell didn't he just do this again, with better instruments?
But this in no way saves the game itself which is another WHERE ARE THE f*ckING SOUND EFFECTS AT disasters. If I recall correctly that is. I don't remember there being SFX on the C64 one, to my disappointment.
and I believe the first tune sounded like reggae, and then I shut that crap off and played Temple of apshai.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 09, 2011, 12:48:06 AM
Maybe if the stuff wasn't in Ghouls n Ghosts it would be ok.
I hated when home computer games changed the arcade soundtracks (which happened a lot). Now it's easier to separate the music from the titles and appreciate them more for what they are.
When you've got a PCE+CD and a Sega Genesis + CD, what the hell do you need an Amiga for besides a doorstop?
Homebrew!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 09, 2011, 04:03:11 AM
When you want to hear this
and you get this:
You start to understand how shit like this:
happened
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on April 09, 2011, 04:14:43 AM
The Amiga was better for 3d games, Star Glider (Think Star Fox where you could fly between planets and even melt your ship if you flew too close to the sun.) and F-18 hornet were both pretty great for their time.
Mostly I used my A2000 for 2d animation (Deluxe paint 4 and Disney animation studio) And stuck to my Duo and SNES for gaming.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 09, 2011, 05:37:43 AM
There arent alot of 3D amiga games that are really worth the time, esp. considering setting one up is a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 09, 2011, 05:59:57 AM
When you want to hear this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT7HEc0GI5c&feature=related
I don't know that I've ever actually heard this, but GODDAMN what an awful racket that is. Any semblance of melody is lost in the abrasive FM cacophony. If this is what people considered "good" video game music, it's no wonder the Turbo ended up becoming my console of choice.
Thank god for the SuperGrafx and SNES renditions.
Quote
and you get this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpLg3Vzr2j8
This one is even worse, however. This isn't actually a song or even what I might consider "music," it's just ambient noise.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 09, 2011, 09:44:34 AM
I don't know that I've ever actually heard this, but GODDAMN what an awful racket that is. Any semblance of melody is lost in the abrasive FM cacophony. If this is what people considered "good" video game music, it's no wonder the Turbo ended up becoming my console of choice.
agreed, that version is a little tinny. The actual arcade isn't that bad so I think maybe it was a bad output.
The SGFX version is undoubtedly the best rendition of the classic "oh shit, zombies and satan just stole my hoe" tune.
but, I couldnt find it and I am lazy.
as for the ambient noise:
ITS BY THE LEGENDLY TIM FOLIN. YOU MUST LOVE IT OR DIE.
or whatever.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 09, 2011, 10:15:15 AM
I don't know why you quoted Ghosts & Goblins arcade when you should have quoted Ghouls 'n Ghosts arcade. Nat, Ghouls sounds millions of times better than Ghosts in the arcade, but I agree, Ghosts sounds like crusty anus. The Genesis version of Ghouls sounds great as well (and in my opinion substantially better than the Supergrafx version).
I do agree, though, that just about every creative effort from Europe back in those days was trash. They've gotten much better over the years. Brits made Burnout Paradise and that game rocks my socks!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 09, 2011, 10:51:04 AM
OH, I did ghosts and goblins? f*ck man I wasn't awake, they all look the same when you've just crawled out of bed to come flail around on the internets.
woops
There we go.
mmmmm.
There weren't alot of euro games that I recall being great fun on these old systems. I notice though that the trend seems to be, if the game is some original idea, its pretty good.
If its an a port of a Japanese game (R Type), or an attempted-in-the-style-of (Menace), you end up with
WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING
The original ideas, like Parallax... yeah those turned out nice.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on April 09, 2011, 11:30:38 AM
The Amiga had some cool 3D games like Stuntcar Racer, Robocop, and some others. Amiga *did* do neat 3D stuff.
if our friends in .JP would have gotten into Amiga dev bitd, I bet we'd have some insanely f*cking awesome games on the Amiga.
Instead we got games that are better on Sega because THERE IS MORE THAN ONE BUTTON.
If you plugged in a Mega Drive / Master System pad to an Amiga, some games used the second button. (Few, but some)
Turrican II and PC Kid FTW.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 10, 2011, 04:07:42 AM
Wow. All I can say (to the haters):
[reading]
If you can find a tiny nook (or cranny) in your heart to appreciate music that strays from your "standards" (including your hated platforms/composers), you just might be surprised with what you enjoy!
Personally, I am glad that, occasionally, folks do more than simply acting as a photocopier and cloning. A long time ago I wrote about the problem of "monoculture" in the video game world (when a game is released for several platforms and nearly identical for each). I know, I know: this is a hallmark of our modern gaming era. I understand why corporations want their games to offer a "standardized product" and provide a "uniform experience" to the customers, but I can't help but wonder if we (video game players) have lost something in return for this "standardized product".
I love the variation and experimentation that occurred back in the day. I know, I'm the crazy one :)
[/reading]
This philosophy applies to music as well as games. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Especially now, from our vantage point as lovers of video game stuff.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 10, 2011, 04:35:40 AM
the fact that the amiga didn't take that quantum leap to multi-buttons as standard really says alot about how those retards view the concept of gaming.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on April 10, 2011, 04:38:11 AM
Very well said Esteban! I have actually written a few gaming publications discussing the fall of variation among the same games across different platforms. It's truly a bygone era. :(
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 10, 2011, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: esteban
This philosophy applies to music as well as games. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Especially now, from our vantage point as lovers of video game stuff.
But if composers completely change the soundtrack with 100% different music that was in the arcade, then the same argument can be applied for the graphics, level design, gameplay, etc. Hell, it could be Ghouls 'n Ghosts in name only but in fact we're driving a race car shooting aliens to a techno beat. When it comes to arcade translations, they need to stick to the arcade, pure and simple. There should not be a completely detached and irrelevant substituted soundtrack. Arrangement is one thing. Obliteration is quite another. The fact is, people like Tim Follin were more interested in making original compositions to say "Hey look at meeeee!" than they were in retaining the original feeling of the arcade.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on April 10, 2011, 02:26:54 PM
Quote
If you plugged in a Mega Drive / Master System pad to an Amiga, some games used the second button. (Few, but some)
Turrican II and PC Kid FTW.
You mean BC-Kid. And it's a second rate Bonks Adventure game. I recently played through it on the Amiga.The game plays more like Bonk 2 in Bonk 1 maps. The spin attack is faster akin to bonk 1 than Bonk 2, but it has none of the effected attack ability of Bonk 1. So it's useless for an attack method.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Mathius on April 10, 2011, 03:36:25 PM
This philosophy applies to music as well as games. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Especially now, from our vantage point as lovers of video game stuff.
But if composers completely change the soundtrack with 100% different music that was in the arcade, then the same argument can be applied for the graphics, level design, gameplay, etc. Hell, it could be Ghouls 'n Ghosts in name only but in fact we're driving a race car shooting aliens to a techno beat. When it comes to arcade translations, they need to stick to the arcade, pure and simple. There should not be a completely detached and irrelevant substituted soundtrack. Arrangement is one thing. Obliteration is quite another. The fact is, people like Matt Furnace were more interested in making original compositions to say "Hey look at meeeee!" than they were in retaining the original feeling of the arcade.
Some of the greatest games of all time started out in the arcades, but when moving to the lesser powered consoles they flowered into something greater. Ninja Gaiden, Bionic Commando, and Punch Out!! come to mind. Of course, I am sure there are some non-NES games that fall into that category. I think. :-k :P
But, on the flip side some things that aren't broken should remain unchanged. G 'n G really didn't need an ambient soundtrack, although I can see where they were trying to go with it. G 'n G is all about pulse pounding gonna die any second now action. Not quite survival horror. :P
I really do admire Tim Follin for the work he has done on other projects though. Silver Surfer has some of the best chip tunes I have ever heard in my life! He took the "boops" and "beeps" of the Spectrum and injected Bionic Commando with a simply fantastic score far removed from the arcade original's. Some of his more experimental stuff may not have worked out so well, but I can't fault the guy. He's only human. :wink:
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 10, 2011, 08:17:05 PM
If there's one thing I think we can all agree upon, the NES's inability to produce arcade accurate ports forced some developers to work hard and, in the process, create better games. In addition to Mathius's list I should add Double Dragon 3. I really wish the PCE had seen more improved ports in the same vein.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 10, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
If you plugged in a Mega Drive / Master System pad to an Amiga, some games used the second button. (Few, but some)
Turrican II and PC Kid FTW.
You mean BC-Kid. And it's a second rate Bonks Adventure game. I recently played through it on the Amiga.The game plays more like Bonk 2 in Bonk 1 maps. The spin attack is faster akin to bonk 1 than Bonk 2, but it has none of the effected attack ability of Bonk 1. So it's useless for an attack method.
dont forget, the music for it is annoying and awful compared to the PCE. Its like, european caveman music. and they used some weird color choices that makes the whole game look kind of dim. The Amiga has more colors and yet they somehow managed to make the game less vibrant. Good job, idiots.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 10, 2011, 11:48:19 PM
lol, did anyone ever came across an arky not ranting about anything? Extremely rare case in my book.
I hope he's not such a grumpy person in RL.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 11, 2011, 03:00:00 AM
lol, did anyone ever came across an arky not ranting about anything? Extremely rare case in my book.
I hope he's not such a grumpy person in RL.
He's just very passionate about things! Without that passion we might not have Aetherbyte and the universal amount of obey would be lower than it is now.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Bonknuts on April 11, 2011, 03:48:38 AM
If you plugged in a Mega Drive / Master System pad to an Amiga, some games used the second button. (Few, but some)
Turrican II and PC Kid FTW.
You mean BC-Kid. And it's a second rate Bonks Adventure game. I recently played through it on the Amiga.The game plays more like Bonk 2 in Bonk 1 maps. The spin attack is faster akin to bonk 1 than Bonk 2, but it has none of the effected attack ability of Bonk 1. So it's useless for an attack method.
dont forget, the music for it is annoying and awful compared to the PCE. Its like, european caveman music. and they used some weird color choices that makes the whole game look kind of dim. The Amiga has more colors and yet they somehow managed to make the game less vibrant. Good job, idiots.
Yeah, the music is a lot like the Chuck Rock series. Probably why they changed it (to make it seem more familiar to that series). After playing through the game, it's.... OK. That is, if you never played the original. Otherwise it can't compare to the original musics. I could only get the game to run in PAL mode (A600), but it does support 2 button. The colors are actually reduced from the original, which is kind of interesting because the original never looked like it was pushing a lot of colors (missing different colored enemies, none of them turn stone color when frozen by advance bonk ground attack, some different colored background blocks, etc). But they added 'copper' graphics to make up for it :P Some of the softer palette choices did look nice. Also, quite a but of the sprites are from Bonk 2 which is weird. Maybe Bonk 2 had too much colors for the base model Amiga to handle (half-brite mode eats a lot of cpu memory bandwidth for old models like the A500/1000 that don't have fastram) and so they decided to go with the first bank. It's not a bad game, but it's not refined as the original. You can still milk enemies for points in the Amiga version, you just can't do it via the spin attack.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: soop on April 11, 2011, 05:27:39 AM
As for the Amiga, I've had a bunch of Amigas over the years. The exclusives aren't worth a damn and the rest of the stuff is better elsewhere. Too many games are up to jump, one button centric disasters because of stupidity. Some games support multi button, but the majority... nope. You are atari-joysticking that crap.
and I stress the term crap.
When you've got a PCE+CD and a Sega Genesis + CD, what the hell do you need an Amiga for besides a doorstop?
Really don't understand the Amiga hate. It's spiritually the closest machine to the PCE IMO. Conversions of PC Kid, Bomberman, Rainbow Islands, Parasol stars, NewZealand story etc, that are all closer to the PCE than anything else, and in some cases better.
Compared to their console counterparts, most Amiga games were rubbish. But I loved the machine to bits because you really had the ability to create on it - DPaint, Amos, MED etc...all brilliant bits of software. And the PD scene allowed you to really share your work for the first time. That's what made it a winner for me.
I agree, I think my life would be very different if it wasn't for the Amiga. It enabled me to start coding, producing graphics, etc etc all off my own back. But while I'd agree that most games were rubbish, I'd argue that it has as many good games as all the other systems at the time, just by virtue of volume and time. Plus it originated some classic titles such as Worms, Lemmings, Turrican, Cannon Fodder, Sensible Soccer etc.
Personally, I could list 100's of games worth playing on the Amiga, but the truth is, while I have a special place in my heart for both the Amiga and the PCE, I'm not going to go out of my way to hate any particular system on principle. If I like a system, I'll try and get it, and my favorite games for it, if I don't, I won't bother.
And if a game is better on, say the Megadrive than the PCE, I won't stick with the PCE one because it's my favorite system, I'll shop around.
So while I agree that each system has it's pros and cons, I have no particular need to attack one because I dislike it (Jaguar and CDI for me). Someone else does, and their reasons are likely perfectly valid.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SaturdayMorningRobots on April 11, 2011, 12:09:34 PM
I love the Amiga, As a computer. To this day I still use Caligari Truespace which got started on Amiga as Caligari, As well as Mirage which IMO is a spiritual descendant of Deluxe paint 4. Amiga basiically created the 3D special effects industry for Television, and Lightwave's continued wide spread use is a testament to the Amiga's lasting influence.
As a gaming machine... ah well it sure beat the hell out of an IBM PC of the same era. :)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on April 11, 2011, 03:07:15 PM
I dig the Amiga as a computer as well, but I prefer the Apple IIGS.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 14, 2011, 09:22:06 PM
This philosophy applies to music as well as games. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Especially now, from our vantage point as lovers of video game stuff.
But if composers completely change the soundtrack with 100% different music that was in the arcade, then the same argument can be applied for the graphics, level design, gameplay, etc. Hell, it could be Ghouls 'n Ghosts in name only but in fact we're driving a race car shooting aliens to a techno beat. When it comes to arcade translations, they need to stick to the arcade, pure and simple. There should not be a completely detached and irrelevant substituted soundtrack. Arrangement is one thing. Obliteration is quite another. The fact is, people like Tim Follin were more interested in making original compositions to say "Hey look at meeeee!" than they were in retaining the original feeling of the arcade.
I respectfully disagree with you. A straight arcade port was not necessarily the wisest strategy, especially considering the hardware capabilities at the time.
But, for the sake of argument, let's assume a "pure" arcade port was feasible... I still appreciate when alterations/modifications/variations/etc. are made when a game is ported. These alterations, however subtle or egregious, for better or for worse, provide a rich, interesting range of fruit to be sampled.
Sure, some of the fruit is rotten. But you can't truly appreciate the sweet flesh without some rotten crud.
Yes, I want some variety. I don't want to hear 99.44% identical songs.
Word up.
:)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 15, 2011, 01:05:33 PM
If you want some variety, you wouldn't buy the same game for a bunch of different platforms. I always find it interesting to see how each system handles an arcade translation, but when they don't even bother and just change it completely, that tells me that they couldn't handle it. Why don't they chang the stage graphics to be outer-space as well? After all you want some variety!
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: nat on April 15, 2011, 04:50:00 PM
A perfect example of this is Super R-Type on the SNES. It seems like they went in with the intention of doing a straight port of R-Type 2, but because of the SNES limitations (slowdown issues, etc) they ended up completely changing a couple of the levels. What you ended up with was a loose port of R-Type 2 with 2 of the later levels completely changed and a new (superfluous) level tacked on the beginning of the game.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 15, 2011, 08:52:04 PM
I have a theory that back in the days of the Spectrum and C64, the only access they had to the games they were converting was to go down to the local arcade and play them, then write their own version from memory. Of course, some games would not have the sound on, or be a bit quiet, meaning that the musicians either had to invent their own tunes or come up with incomplete versions (Out Run, Rastan..). This would explain a lot O:)
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: SuperPlay on April 15, 2011, 10:34:41 PM
Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Back in the day I had used to work at a console importer here in the UK, so I had access to pretty much every console that came along. And as such most of my wages also went this way ;-)
To be honest the reason why I am continuing my PCE collection rather than focusing on the other systems is for a few reasons:
* Must OBEY PCE!
* I just think that the design of the unit and the cards is awesome
* I lost my back job in the day (Company closed) so I had to sell my PCE collection at the time and I missed it ;-)
* The PCE has a bit more of a wow factor with friends who only know of the mainstream consoles such as Genesis and Snes.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 15, 2011, 10:58:53 PM
I have a theory that back in the days of the Spectrum and C64, the only access they had to the games they were converting was to go down to the local arcade and play them, then write their own version from memory. Of course, some games would not have the sound on, or be a bit quiet, meaning that the musicians either had to invent their own tunes or come up with incomplete versions (Out Run, Rastan..). This would explain a lot O:)
I'm pretty sure this was the case with a lot of ports in the early 80s.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: sunteam_paul on April 16, 2011, 01:42:46 AM
Heh, I think I still have one of your newsletters somewhere (cover- 'The creature that ate Concole Concepts' I think, unless I'm getting you mixed up with another company)! You probably knew of my friend Chris, he used to buy tons of PCE stuff back in the day.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: TheOldMan on April 16, 2011, 02:57:01 AM
Quote
I have a theory that back in the days of the Spectrum and C64, the only access they had to the games they were converting was to go down to the local arcade and play them
Probably not, but it may have been easier to do that way. A LOT of those games were in assembler, and it's very raer to find a good programer who knows two different assembly languages, and can convert one to the other. I doubt the arcade versions were done on 6502 compatible cpus...
And having access to the original assembler source-code probably wasn't much help, anyway. Well, except for figuring out some basic structure.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 16, 2011, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: nat
A perfect example of this is Super R-Type on the SNES.
Excellent example. But see what they did there? They called it Super R-Type instead of R-Type 2. If they had called G&G for the Commodore Ghouls & Ghosts Legends or some shit like that, nobody would have complained about any differences they chose to put in there because it would be seen as a mostly original game unto itself.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Black Tiger on April 16, 2011, 12:16:00 PM
A perfect example of this is Super R-Type on the SNES.
Excellent example. But see what they did there? They called it Super R-Type instead of R-Type 2. If they had called G&G for the Commodore Ghouls & Ghosts Legends or some shit like that, nobody would have complained about any differences they chose to put in there because it would be seen as a mostly original game unto itself.
Like Super Darius II or even Super Darius to a lesser extent. Darius Plus didn't offer anything unique, but it did have two less screens of play area. ;) Even the split PCE R-Type chapters added something to the title to indicate that the content was different.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Tatsujin on April 16, 2011, 02:59:04 PM
So why didn't they call Gradius III = Super Gradius, or Final Fight = Final Fight 1/2? Following by that same rule, they must have do this, since the content is quite different to the original.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Arkhan on April 16, 2011, 05:45:00 PM
lol, did anyone ever came across an arky not ranting about anything? Extremely rare case in my book.
I hope he's not such a grumpy person in RL.
You call it ranting, I call it going against the grain. I don't care if the Amiga / C64 were the most popular at the time and everyone touches themselves to the games. I don't like them and I'm not afraid to say it. I have enough experience with the both of them to be justified in my criticism. I spent around ... hmm. 7 years playing C64/Amiga extensively, not including the 5ish years we had an Amiga growing up.
As for the Amiga, I've had a bunch of Amigas over the years. The exclusives aren't worth a damn and the rest of the stuff is better elsewhere. Too many games are up to jump, one button centric disasters because of stupidity. Some games support multi button, but the majority... nope. You are atari-joysticking that crap.
and I stress the term crap.
When you've got a PCE+CD and a Sega Genesis + CD, what the hell do you need an Amiga for besides a doorstop?
Really don't understand the Amiga hate. It's spiritually the closest machine to the PCE IMO. Conversions of PC Kid, Bomberman, Rainbow Islands, Parasol stars, NewZealand story etc, that are all closer to the PCE than anything else, and in some cases better.
There are no PCE games on the Amiga that are better than the PCE ones. I hope that's the meth talking.
The Amiga controller setup is retarded. The hardware itself is a bit of a pain in the ass. Try running A500 games on an A4000. Its fun. Not really.
The action games seem forced, or generic (Menace, lol), the conversions usually have coked out European disaster soundtracks instead of the real tunes. The hardware is overpriced for what gaming you will get out of it. All of the RPGs are western style, and that sucks even though theyre fun. There isnt enough variety in them.
All of these RPGs are accessible on the PC also, and really, they are much simpler to get going. Use an MT-32, and you have just destroyed Paula, that stupid whore.
The Amiga boasted really nice graphics. *really* nice ones. The games themselves however, are rarely as great as people make them out to be.
especially BC kid. What the hell were they doing when they made that. Like I said before they somehow managed to make it look worse on the Amiga despite it having 3500something extra colors. The sky should have been the limit in porting it. More shading/detail, parallax out the ass. None of it happened. Its washed out and crappy looking. then you have to listen to some awful congo music, and then you wonder why you are playing it on an overpriced computer that takes up more space than a betamax VCR, when you could play it on a nice, sexy PCE.
Find me an Amiga game that is on par with Lords of Thunder, Sapphire, or Cotton. I bet you can't.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 16, 2011, 09:16:16 PM
Quote from: Tatsujin
So why didn't they call Gradius III = Super Gradius, or Final Fight = Final Fight 1/2? Following by that same rule, they must have do this, since the content is quite different to the original.
I have no clue what Gradius 3 is like in the arcades nor do I really care, but Final Fight should not be renamed. It tries to be like the arcade but system limitations forced them to leave some crap out. The soundtrack is the same from what I recall (only SNES-ized). Any actual differences are not as significant than a completely redone soundtrack by some random guy.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: spenoza on April 18, 2011, 03:15:32 AM
You know, honestly, the companies which licensed the porting/reprogramming duties to these Euro dev houses are just as much to blame. Their contracts should have included the right of review and approval.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: esteban on April 18, 2011, 10:00:13 AM
If you want some variety, you wouldn't buy the same game for a bunch of different platforms. I always find it interesting to see how each system handles an arcade translation, but when they don't even bother and just change it completely, that tells me that they couldn't handle it. Why don't they chang the stage graphics to be outer-space as well? After all you want some variety!
I hear you, and I do not disagree with you... it's just that I thought you appreciated the variety (see below) because we benefit from it.
Yes, as a person obsessed with video games, I enjoy the nuanced (and not so nunaced) differences between various versions/ports of the same game. Remember, I am talking from the vantage point of someone who will EVENTUALLY try multiple versions of a game because I have nothing better to do.
I will certainly LISTEN to most, if not all, of the music offered by these multiple versions.
From this vantage point, I don't want too many clones/duplicates, because then I have fewer things to listen to.
I have a disease, Joe. So do you.
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: Jibbajaba on April 18, 2011, 03:56:17 PM
To answer the original question...
I never had a Turbo back in the day, but to me the 16-bit era was the golden age of gaming. I was in high school at the time, and I was all about the Genesis, my computer, and regular trips to the arcade. So needless to say, I really like playing games from that period.
I've been collecting games for about 12 or so years, so by this point I've played (or am at least familiar with) most games on the SNES and Genesis that are worth playing. I've dipped my toe in the TurboGrafx pool before, but now I have more disposable income than I once did, and one of the first things that I bought was a Duo-R from doujindance. I also have a PCE flash cart, but I like collecting the real games so I don't use it very much. My point is that now I have this whole new huge selection of games that I have not only never played, but many that I have never even heard of (on the PCE side of things). So even though the console is over 20 years old, to me it almost feels like a brand new system, and that feels exciting because I look forward to exploring its library.
I certainly don't play my PCE *instead* of the Genesis or SNES, but for me right now it is a lot more fun to play and collect for. That being said, I love my other two 16-bit systems and would never want to give them up.
Chris
Title: Re: Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or Snes???
Post by: thesteve on April 18, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
i prefer my turbo to my other systems because before the 3D revolution games were built more around playability, not just rendering. i loved the Atari 2600 and Sega master system as well