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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: Bonknuts on March 23, 2011, 04:24:56 PM
Title: Final Soldier
Post by: Bonknuts on March 23, 2011, 04:24:56 PM
Figured start a new thread and keep from derailing the "Why the PCE?".
I beat SSS today. After many years, I realize it's not as good as a game as I remember. There are some cool parts and cool art work, but it's very little and mostly just empty space or very repetitive looking. This repetitive feeling goes along with the long drawn out levels of the game too. I dunno. It's just not as satisfying as a shmup (blasting the crap out of everything) that it once was to me.
Anyway, on to Final Soldier. This was the last game I was exposed to in the series, after Soldier Blade. And via emulation, many years back. I immediately didn't like it. I'm not exactly sure why. I played a little of it a few times, then just left it alone/ignored it. After having beaten SSS, I wanted to see how Final Soldier stacked up. So about an hour or so ago, I played through the game. That's the first time I've even gotten that far, let alone beat the game. Wow, what a f-ing great shmup. Everything about the game felt perfect. I think in two levels, just when I thought the level just might be a bit too long, boom - the boss comes in. Perfect :D Love the weapons. In the SSS series (and BL), I've mainly only used the spread pee-shooter (5 way, whatever you call it) and missiles. The great thing about this game in the series, is that I was comfortably able to switch to difference weapons and the game gives you plenty of chances to change out. Always seems to be at the right time too. I like the fact that you can customize the main weapons at the start of the back. I used the bubble weapon quite a bit. Overall, the game kicks ass. Lots of non stop action/blasting/bullet dodging. I got to stage 6 without dieing, but had to continue quite a few times on the last two stages. Last stage is great too, very nice challenge. Can't believe I over looked this game all these years.
Now to master the game on hard, and then expert :twisted:
Oh, and the music in FS is awesome. I'd rate it above SSS overall.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: PunkicCyborg on March 23, 2011, 04:32:16 PM
I just played through this game too and yeah it's GREAT. It's even better I got a super nice copy from HIT Japan for a $5 best offer hehe Yeah it has a really nice learning curve, never too tedious or annoying and very fun. The last level before the boss stage gets pretty hairy especially if your not maxed out on your weapon and you have to avoid those rainbow disc things that chase you with a couple of big enemies on the screen. Yeah and I think the music is pretty cool too.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 04:33:23 PM
Ok, whatever crack someone must have slipped into my food at some point today... has apparently worn off. (Thank god)
I retract my statement of SSS. Having just replayed through the entire game after making that post - SSS is 6.5 or 7 easily. BL is a 9 or 9.5.
SSS has some great parts, but they are very little. I guess my memory got the best of me on that one, because that's all I seemed to have allowed myself to remember of the game. There are lots of boring parts in between. I like most of the bosses and mini boss of SSS. I like some of the art work, of what little there is really (cause it's damn repetitive). It would have been a lot better if they just made all the stages half as long (at minimum, maybe some even shorter). Gotta go with Nat on this one. :oops:
The game has not aged well. Back in the day, I thought it was pretty cool. Nowadays, the other games in the series just blow it out of the water. You mentioned length, and indeed that is a major problem. The game just drones on and on, there are points where it seems like it'll never end. Most of the decent parts are towards the end of the game. The only standout part for me early in the adventure is the Scorpion boss who's kind of a chump, but at least he's cool in concept.
Some could argue Blazing Lazers suffers from the same affliction, but the killer soundtrack coupled with Compile's knack for keeping things interesting even during long stretches allows it to stay enjoyable. Not to mention the levels are a lot more interesting to begin with. Somehow they completely failed in this regard with Space Megaforce.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 04:38:18 PM
How ironic that after that discussion, I had to go and play a Soldier game as well. Which one? Final Soldier, of course.
Soldier Blade is technically the best game in the series, but I'm most fond of Final Soldier for many of the reasons Bonknuts mentioned. FS offers the ability to customize your weapons before starting a game; something the rest of the series lacks. The bubble weapon set to "spin" not only looks incredible cool, it packs quite a punch utilized correctly in certain situations.
My weapon set of choice: Laser- Spear, E-Beam (bubble)- Spin, Fire- Burner, Missle- Homing.
A far cry from Super Star Soldier's poor man's low-res blue "rings" that pixelize as they scale larger.
Also, maybe it's just me, but Stage 5 feels like an homage to Blazing Lazers. The style of the graphics have the "BL feel."
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Tatsujin on March 23, 2011, 05:11:49 PM
Figured start a new thread and keep from derailing the "Why the PCE?".
That's what I just wanted to do by posting this link http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6820.0 in the other thread.
As for FS, that game lacks in pepp and variation for me, but it has great tunes (same composer as for jackie chan I guess). Its firepower seems weak and unatractive to me, so were most of the landscapes and bosses and its overall used colors.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 23, 2011, 05:13:24 PM
Quote
Some could argue Blazing Lazers suffers from the same affliction, but the killer soundtrack
Super Star Soldier has waaaay better music than Blazing Lazerz, though BL doesn't sound horrible or anything.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 23, 2011, 05:48:22 PM
To each his own, but I disagree 100%. :) I find the SSS tunes completely unmemorable. I can't think of one single melody from SSS, and believe me, I'm trying. On the other hand, I could hum you the hook for almost every song in BL.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: esteban on March 23, 2011, 06:59:48 PM
I disagree vehemently with Bonknuts' assertion (in the "Why PCE?" thread) that the graphics in SSS are "better" than BL (I actually go a step further and condemn the entire Soldier series!). Blasphemy? Or the God's honest truth?
To prove I am correct, I quote myself (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6820.msg118928#msg118928) from years past:
Quote
Disclaimer: I dig the Star Soldier series. I dig SSS. They are swell, in my book. That said....
I have to say that SSS was a bit of a let down after Blazing Lazers... yes, BL has some dull parts (stage 2 is uneventful and lasts way too long, for example), but I was hoping SSS would demolish BL.
It didn't. It seemed like it was another horizontal shooter akin to BL, but more generic.
Yes, I know BL is not part of the Star Soldier series, but there is no way to talk about SSS without putting it in context (the schedule of releases in North America). BL set the bar high. Sinistron, Cybercore, Dragon Spirit, R-Type, etc. were nice but didn't seem "next-next-generation" like BL.
Isolating SSS in a vacuum, though, it is a decent game. I enjoyed it. I voted "7", and that was before I read anything here.
Call me crazy, but BL's graphics outclass those in the Star Soldier series. I haven't actually compared them in years, but it always struck me that way. BL's graphics are razor sharp detailed without being distracting, inconsistent, bland, etc.
Jesus, maybe I can't be objective.
Maybe I shouldn't talk about BL as part of the series.
To each his own, but I disagree 100%. :) I find the SSS tunes completely unmemorable. I can't think of one single melody from SSS, and believe me, I'm trying. On the other hand, I could hum you the hook for almost every song in BL.
100% agreed. And to prove that we are both correct, I will simply say this to the naysayers: Listen to the goddamn songs (http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=2567.msg35418#msg35418).
:)
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Tatsujin on March 23, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
Altough SB has some ubergreat grafx. But FS sure is on the bottom end concerning that matter.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Otaking on March 24, 2011, 02:21:08 AM
I agree with Tats, FS sits at the bottom of the series for me too. One reason is the graphic styling is a little western Shmup looking for my tastes, personally I'm not keen on that. But mainly that it's too easy, it feels like the game is just starting to get going, the difficulty is starting to ramp up a bit and then bang it's over.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: turbokon on March 24, 2011, 05:17:42 AM
I also agree with tats and hardcore, after playing thru the first three stages of FS, SSS is a better shooter in my book. I don't like the ship design, the stage's graphic is pretty good and soundtrack is not impressive at all. I can hum most tracks out of SSS because it's that good but can't even hum any from FS.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: ddd1234 on March 24, 2011, 09:38:10 AM
I finished this one last night, it was easiest of the 3 "soldier games".
I love the music in this game, prolly my fav soundtrack of the 3.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 24, 2011, 11:31:54 AM
Quote from: nat
I could hum you the hook for almost every song in BL.
Do it! I am awaiting MP3 links of your humming.
I agree that BL has more memorable music. But I can remember the insipid song "Friday" or "Who let the dogs out" more than I can many actual good songs.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Arkhan on March 24, 2011, 12:08:08 PM
This is the only good song from SSS, and the rest of its so unmemorable, that I forgot what f*ckin stage this one was even from.
The song has this sweet power metal beat, and could totally be a Maiden song or something.
Overall, of the Turbob shooters, I think SSS is alot like the original SS on NES/MSX in that it was badass up until practically ANY other shooty came out and then youre like "eh."
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 24, 2011, 12:25:47 PM
OK nevermind.
I have Soldier Blade, not Super Star Soldier. I like Soldier Blade music more than Blazing Lazers. I get all of the damn Soldier games confused.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 24, 2011, 01:25:10 PM
Well, that's a completely different comparison!
I'd say Soldier Blade's music is much closer to Blazing Lazers in terms of memorability and quality. That's a hard one.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 24, 2011, 01:35:15 PM
Yeah, I don't know why I kept thinking Super Star Soldier, but when Arkhan linked to it, something didn't seem right so I double-checked the recordings I had made from the game (I've made recordings from Blazing Lazers as well). Sure enough, different game.
It's funny to me because here I was giving Super Star Soldier the most love it'll ever get and it wasn't even real love. It's kind of like saying the wrong name when you are with a chick.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Bonknuts on March 24, 2011, 02:01:30 PM
Quote
As for FS, that game lacks in pepp and variation for me, but it has great tunes (same composer as for jackie chan I guess). Its firepower seems weak and unatractive to me, so were most of the landscapes and bosses and its overall used colors.
I was a fan of the music for years, even though I didn't play the game. Not sure what you mean about some things though. The game has plenty of pep. It's of the style I like; even if you blast everything on screen - you'll still be dodging bullets. It's not one of those games where you pretty much have nothing to do if you memorized the game and are full powered (you destroy enemies before you even get to barely see them - SSS falls into this category somewhat). FS might be easier than SSS, but that's because it's not cheap like SSS. SSS is cake until pretty much the last two or so levels. FS just feels more rewarding in the gameplay/mechanics department. As for variation, FS level appearance and designs are much better then SSS. SSS has a few nice moments, but they are far and few between. And they don't last the whole level. Stage 1 is decent, stage 2 is ok, then it starts going down hill from there. FS has more tiles, more art, more sprites, more feeling of variation of levels. I love the ship port level (stage 3 IIRC) - reminds me of 1941 which I love. For the record, I played through and beat BL after making this initial post (and after failing to get too far in hard more in FS). BL truly is an awesome game. None of the levels felt too long (I think I heard some complaints about this).
Honestly, for anyone that thinks otherwise; play them back to back like I did. Though, it probably doesn't help my case that FS is pretty much "new" to me and SSS is not. But even BL beats SSS in every category, with the exception of older style graphics. Nowadays, that doesn't bother me. I prefer the art style of early titles like BL, Bloody Wolf, Ninja Spirit, etc.
The problem I have with FS, is the next difficulty setting. It's not like typical shmups where it's just more enemies and bullets. There is that, but enemies take a lot more hits/time to kill. This completely changes the strategy of the game. I was only able to get to stage 4 and just right before the boss, on Hard mode. The game requires more than just memorization as the bullets target your ships and things get pretty hairy.
Oh, and Blazing Lazers has something over all the other games: Chromadepth 3D. That's right. If you have a pair of Chromadepth 3D glasses, the bubble stage (stage 7 IIRC) looks great and has depth. If you don't know what chromadepth is, go look it up. A number of TG/PCE games coincidentally actually work with them, although it was purely unintentional. By far, 1941 on the SGX levels 1 and 2 look incredible with the glasses (better than BL, best yet in fact from the games I've tried out).
Disclaimer: I don't care if BL isn't officially part of the series or not. Or if any people/developers worked on both. The games are sooo similar not to group them. And in the context of this system too. If that doesn't make me a purist, then no skin off my back.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 24, 2011, 02:36:58 PM
Yeah, people always make a giant fuss about BL not being an official part of the series when these discussions come up, but you have to remember that in the US Super Star Soldier was initially announced as "Blazing Lazers 2". I get the feeling the development team for SSS was instructed to take certain gameplay elements from BL for an intended feeling of continuity.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Otaking on March 24, 2011, 03:14:02 PM
Seems like on this forum I'm in a massive minority as in right from the beginning of when I propperly got into games in the late eighties I've never been a fan of any videogame music 8-[ . Back in the day I used to mostly turn the volume down on games, and have the radio on (back then here in the UK in the bigger cities we had a large Pirate radio scene that played underground music). I only say this because the music has never really factored at all as whether I like the game, I'm surprised loads of the posts in this thread it appears its almost the most important thing for others?
A few eccptions were:
Winds of Thunder - OMG tunes are absolutely bad ass Ys Book I&II CD View Point - NEO GEO Last Resort - NEO GEO
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Tatsujin on March 24, 2011, 04:12:55 PM
For me gamemusic was the most underground music at that time, since almost nobody but me lissened to it.
Still today, good old 8-/16-bit game music is probably the most underground music you can get.
But only for those who know.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: turbokon on March 24, 2011, 04:57:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcaZu6klg8w This is the only good song from SSS, and the rest of its so unmemorable, that I forgot what f*ckin stage this one was even from.
The song has this sweet power metal beat, and could totally be a Maiden song or something.
Overall, of the Turbob shooters, I think SSS is alot like the original SS on NES/MSX in that it was badass up until practically ANY other shooty came out and then youre like "eh."
That's my favorite track from SSS. It's the stage with the big solar flare in the background and the end boss is a badass mech with no legs. I have this track on my iphone along with several other turbo tracks. Everytime I need a boost at work, I listen to play my turbo playlist on the iphone.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Joe Redifer on March 24, 2011, 09:22:17 PM
Quote
Still today, good old 8-/16-bit game music is probably the most underground music you can get.
And still some of the best! I am a game music whore. I have never played Final Soldier, but suddenly I want to just to listen to the music. Hopefully it has a sound test. I record all of the good stuff from real systems and am working on the 9th 80minute CD now dedicated to 16-bit era systems (though there are a few N64 tunes, but the rule is cartridge based). Need more. MOAR!
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 12:23:59 AM
Still today, good old 8-/16-bit game music is probably the most underground music you can get.
And still some of the best! I am a game music whore. I have never played Final Soldier, but suddenly I want to just to listen to the music. Hopefully it has a sound test. I record all of the good stuff from real systems and am working on the 9th 80minute CD now dedicated to 16-bit era systems (though there are a few N64 tunes, but the rule is cartridge based). Need more. MOAR!
:)
You are not the only music slut here, thankfully :)
I think we shared in the past that you, B_T and I recorded music on audio cassettes back in the day. If I was shameless, I would share old home movies that featured TG-16 tunes. But I'm not that courageous.
Back in the day I used to mostly turn the volume down on games, and have the radio on (back then here in the UK in the bigger cities we had a large Pirate radio scene that played underground music). I only say this because the music has never really factored at all as whether I like the game, I'm surprised loads of the posts in this thread it appears its almost the most important thing for others?
Since a lot of us are music fiends, we usually discuss the soundtrack as one aspect of a game. Sometimes a game's only redeeming quality is its soundtrack, which, actually, is important for folks who are seeking new tunes. Naturally, musical preferences are highly subjective, and the only time a soundtrack will actually be crucial is if it were used as a "tie-breaker" when comparing games.
There are many games that benefitted from "turning down the volume, pumping up the stereo": Mario Kart on SNES is probably the single best example of this. I must have played hundreds (thousands) of hours racing/battling friends. :) Same for NES Baseball Stars and NES Micro Machines.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: esteban on March 25, 2011, 12:27:32 AM
Still today, good old 8-/16-bit game music is probably the most underground music you can get.
And still some of the best! I am a game music whore. I have never played Final Soldier, but suddenly I want to just to listen to the music. Hopefully it has a sound test. I record all of the good stuff from real systems and am working on the 9th 80minute CD now dedicated to 16-bit era systems (though there are a few N64 tunes, but the rule is cartridge based). Need more. MOAR!
Nice, have you done Thunder Cross II yet? One of the best ever. Recorded straight from my pcb. :)
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: TheOldMan on March 25, 2011, 02:02:32 AM
Quote
Oh, and Blazing Lazers has something over all the other games: Chromadepth 3D. [\quote] Okay, that was neat. I actually dug out some 3-d glasses and tried this. It makes the game a little harder, but some of the effects look pretty cool.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Bonknuts on March 25, 2011, 05:50:47 AM
Oh, and Blazing Lazers has something over all the other games: Chromadepth 3D.
Okay, that was neat. I actually dug out some 3-d glasses and tried this. It makes the game a little harder, but some of the effects look pretty cool.
It has to be specifically Chromadepth 3D glasses (usually used for art shows, company promotions (posters and images), etc). Can't be anaglyph (red/blue) or polarized 3D glasses like RealD. Chromadepth only gives 3D depth based on color spectrum, which is why it's pretty much useless for movies and such. Blue is the farthest back depth, green is the middle depth, red is the closest depth to the viewer. Every thing else falls in between. If the depth of the image itself doesn't correspond with the spectrum depth, you get weird depth artifacts or just no depth at all. Dark blues (as in pure blues) usually give the best depth perception against pure reds and greens.
On Blazing Lazers, (stage 8) most of the scrolling static or such bubbles are dark blue. Red and green bubbles animate or scale/scroll over the blue ones. Giving it depth.
In 1941 for stage 1 and 2, the waster is dark blue giving a 3D depth layer for it. The second level it's even more pronounced since it's in a 'channel'. And the boat boss really looks like it's sticking out of the water.
Legendary Axe 1, the first level; the pure blue rocks have a far depth layer. But not much else.
Valis I first stage, the blue waving sky looks really cool as it appears to be farther back from everything else.
Ninja Spirit: First stage far scrolling layer. It's more subtle though.
Rastan Saga II: The first stage. For some reason all the foreground blocks appear to stick out closer to the viewer. Not sure why.
Veigues Tactical Gladiator: Has it on some spots. The first level in the near building, inside the windows, the blue rumble has depth. Some later levels have weird subtle depth to them.
Splatterhouse: Just the opening scene (shot) with house and the forest.
Altered Beast: Just the title screen
Syphia: The title screen and the later water level.
Sinistron: First level, but more subtle.
Aero Blasters: Second level. Pretty pronounced.
Bravoman: Second level (underwater shooter level).
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Obfuscate on March 25, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
That's what I just wanted to do by posting this link http://www.pcenginefx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6820.0 in the other thread.
After reading a few of these threads latley would it be cool or lame to have a thread where users rate the shooters on PCE they have played? I know for my own amusment I rate them and save it to my computer and when I play through a new one I add it to my list.
Anyway, I've yet to play FS but with the other games, Soldier Blade has the best music, IMO, of any game I've played. I love the compositions of the tracks and they fit the type of shooter perfect. SSS only has one tune I really like and it's the green robot stage tune. The game just doesn't have the addictive want to play everyday till you beat it quality I look for in a shooter. BL is alot of fun, has great tunes and graphics but the balance is off for me, they should just get rid of the 1st two stages.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: ddd1234 on March 25, 2011, 08:20:52 AM
Final soldier or VIOLENT soldier??? hmmm...choices choices!
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 25, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
Two great, yet very different games.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: Bonknuts on March 26, 2011, 06:05:56 AM
Nat: Have you beaten this game on hard difficulty? Any pro tips?
I was choosing "bubble" for the Blue laser weapon, because at its weakest level it's pretty strong. It's a nice pickup if you get knocked all the way down to level 1 weapon power. I can't seem to find a good choice for Fire. The SSS style option is nice and powerful with a nice wide sweep, but it obstructs your view from seeing any bullets that might be underneath the flames :/ Would have been great if it was flickering 60hz. The other two options for it, I just can't seem to find a good use for them.
Title: Re: Final Soldier
Post by: nat on March 26, 2011, 07:25:15 AM
I can't recall if I've beaten hard mode or not. It's likely that I have at one point or another, but I just don't know. Perhaps I'll give it a shot today.
I don't know that I've ever tried "Bubble" for the blue laser, I'll give that a try as well. The SSS style option for the fire weapon is definitely powerful, but I don't like how you can't control where the sweeps are pointing so I don't use it.